- Welcome to The Next Question, I'm Jenny. - I'm Austin. - I'm Chi-Chi. - So today ladies we
have Brené Brown with us. - Whoop, whoop! - Yeah! - She is a New York
Times bestselling author of books like "Daring Greatly", "Rising Strong", "Dare to Lead". She is also a sociology
researcher focused on shame, vulnerability and courage. She also has a TED Talk that I think has like 48 million views or something. So no pressure. - Also "The Gifts of Imperfection". - Yes, which is our collective favorite. So ladies, what did we love
about this conversation? - We've been listening to Brené talk for a long time about shame and vulnerability. But it doesn't often
penetrate specifically into the lives of women of color, and how being vulnerable
and being courageous and being brave can have
extra costs associated to it. So it's so good to sit down
with her and say Brené, but what about marginalized people? What does all of this
research have to say for us who are dealing with so
many systemic issues. - And I really loved how we got to some of the tough questions, when you start talking
about human connection. What's at the core of
all of this division. Because so many times
they can become an issue, but we forget what it was
supposed to be the fact that we're supposed to be
connected to each other, and the fact that we're not is what really causes
all of these problems. And I really appreciated
her willingness to go there. - Yes.
- Totally. - To have some really tough dialogue. But also in the same way to imagine what a better world can look like. Especially between white women and black women and women of color. That was a part where we
don't often get to do that, name the thing, name ways that white women
have hurt women of color. But also imagine it a different way. And that was a really
special conversation. - Totally. I think one of my favorite parts of just doing the series in general is when our guest will say, I don't usually talk about this, or I've never been asked this question, and she said that a couple of times. And that felt really just special that we were tapping into a side of her that is very much there, like to hear about her being in grad school reading bell hooks, and just that she has been, she's been in this work for a long time, eyes wide open. And for her to have an
outlet to really dive in, it felt kind of like an honor to create that kind of
space together with her. - Shall we get to it? - Yeah, it's time for The Next Question. Brené, it seems that you have become more and more vocal about
racial justice issues. Is there a recent moment
that has sparked this, or some sort of personal change that has made you much
more vocal about equity? - I love all the warmup
questions, I really-- I was like, hell, we're here. So let me tell you the weird story. I am a social worker, I have a bachelors, Masters
and PhD in social work. The first class I ever took was like structural oppression and genocide. Like this is just how we're trained. And so I didn't even, and I was raised on a very
healthy dose of bell hooks. - Hey. - That's what I'm talking about. - Yeah huge, when I first started teaching I started teaching my first
year in the doctoral program I would sleep with
"Teaching to Transgress". - Listen. - Next to my bed with her picture up, so when I saw it in the morning, I was like because I wanted
to control the classroom and everything that she said was like, education is liberation,
let it go, let it go. And I was like, be
aware of your whiteness. So I think I've always been, even if you go back to, I Thought It Was Just Me. Which was like, before
The Gifts of Imperfection. I write about race, privilege. It's like I didn't, it was weird to me that we
use the term white supremacy, when I was in graduate
school like I was like, that just seems like a technically accurate
term for what's happening. And then I think there was
a lulling into complacency. And kind of always aware of it. So I think I've always written
about it and talked about it, I just think it was
always to the converted. And so I think, do you know what I mean? So now I think-- - Your audience has expanded so much since then. - And it's so interesting, because I'll put something out there, and they're like, oh my God
you've become so radical. And I'm like you know page 155, 20 years ago, every
paper I've ever written. Like no, you become so complacent like. And so I think I have
a bigger audience now. But I don't think it's, I don't think I've changed that
much, does that make sense? - Absolutely. - Who introduced bell hooks to you? Like where did that come from? - Who introduced bell hooks to me? Probably either Jean Contabu Lating, one of my mentors in graduate school. Karen Stout, another
mentor of Barbara Novak, all mentors for me in graduate school. We read you know like, and I'm rereading her right
now, rereading the trilogy. The Love. I am really working on a
new strategy this month. - What do you mean? You're like, how your? - It's like they got my hate. I swore they wouldn't take my hate. But they got my hate. And then after that El
Paso and Ohio shootings I haven't been online in over a month. - Wow. - Like not Instagram, nothing. Like I'm just something,
I have to shift something. So I'm trying to think maybe
I've abandoned love too much, so I'm rereading bell hooks right now. And I think I have to start fighting. I have this theory that if
you're motivated by hate, it's just not sustainable. And I'll tell you this, I've never talked about this publicly, so these ideas are percolating, like be gentle with me on
social media as you watch this. I think, let me think about this for a minute, I'm not filtering I'm just really thinking
about my thoughts, I'm a pauser. I don't think like hate and shame-fueled activism is sustainable. - I think there are a lot of movement builders who
would say the same thing, and I think they would add
anger actually to that list. - I would add it too. - Right, but it can maybe be a catalyst.
- A catalyst, yeah. - But for sustainability. - What doesn't work for me and I find myself in these
arguments like you know, you're in your whiteness
when you argue for privilege, I mean for civility, you're in your whiteness
when you're saying no hate. But I just wonder, I look
at the health outcomes for disenfranchised
marginalized populations. I look at blood pressure, I look at like, even at the rage, like what a price to pay. When you're paying with your life. And then it was really hard and I'll be curious to see
what you all think about this, this is the part I haven't talked about. I thought for like the last year that it was maybe a return to my faith where I would find a
sustained fighting energy. - Right. - I'm not with the program -- I'm having a hard time, I'm having a hard time. I'm having a hard time. - I found myself redefining what it means. - Really? Because I grew up Christian, evangelical. And for the last three years I've had just a complete. First it all fell apart where there was some things that happened, specifically after a certain
election where I was just like, I do not understand this. Like I don't understand how our faith, this is how it's manifesting. And I had to start from
the beginning and just say, what does this mean? And my faith now doesn't look
like what it did five, 10, even when I was younger, it has become this for me it's more about how do
I show up in the world and the decisions that I make,
how do they affect the whole. Not just me. Even as a black woman. Because I think I resonate
when you talk about you can't let hate be the thing, because at the end of the
day I find myself getting to the point where I don't
even care if you're okay. I don't care if you ever understand that your privilege is wrong. Demolish the whole thing,
let's just move forward. But how far does that actually get us? - I don't know, I mean
it's the right question. - Right, are we just recreating
what we've lived in now, or are we actually creating something new and imagining a world where
there is actual connection and believing that real
community can exist. Because there was a period of time and I still struggle with it, I didn't know if that was possible. I was like, I don't know if
we can actually live together. - Yeah, I think I'm living
in that question right now. And it so goes against
everything I believe. But I don't see church helping. - No right, no. - It's definitely not leading on anything. - It's not leading. - It's not pastoring, it's not showing up. - It's not telling the truth. - It's not telling the truth. I think it's marketing and it staying safe
and it's staying quiet, it's trying not to
ruffle too many feathers. And I don't think that's not the origins of the
faith that I grew up in, I don't recognize it today. So I think I'm going back
to the people that are, shifting the lens. Like shifting the lens
helping me see it more, like within the confines
of what's happening today. Like you can't be having it
just be like all ideology without it actually being
implemented until today. Whose life is different
because of their faith, those are the people I want to be around. - That's right, reading your book, your book got a lot of airtime and airtime is not good
for books in my house. Because if I read something that's hard I just toss it right across my bedroom. - Oh that makes me so happy. - Your book hits walls. - I love it. - The pain. - It disappoints me when I ask people, I ask people to do throw it. And when people say no
I'm like, "oh, okay." - No, but I really-- - Why not? - I threw it just pain, because I think for me this is the question that I'm
wrestling with right now, and I won't articulate it well
because it's a new thought. But I wanted to share it with you all, because if not here, where? There comes a moment when
I'm reading your book, and I've had this moment 100 times, which is probably 99 times
more than most people who are white and have privilege. But there comes a moment
where I have to decide whether you're bullshitting
me or the pain is real. I don't care if I'm reading
Toni Morrison's "Beloved", I don't care whether
I'm reading your book. There's just a pinpoint, there's a moment where I
have to say, is this true? And every part of me is like, I mean it's just hardwired in me, no this is not true, she's exaggerating, this couldn't happen, they couldn't treat her like this at work. And this is a Christian place. I fight you. And then I always ask myself why is it so hard to believe it's true. And the answer is pain. Pain. And it's like we have no tolerance for it, we have no tolerance. And all these really
important really valuable analysis of power and
privilege are important. But we're not talking about pain. - This is such a great segue, because one of the reasons why we we're so excited to talk to you is because it can be really difficult to talk about what the themes in your book mean for women of color. Because it sounds really nice
that black women are gonna be courageous and brave and
authentic and vulnerable, but the price to pay for
that in the workplace for my story to be used against me. For me to not be able to have playfulness, to not be able to be goofy, because I'm representing all black women who will ever pass
through these doors again. It is so hard, but it's genuinely hard to read
and resonates with so much, and then to think where could I possibly put this into practice that won't cause more pain for me. - I think on the flip
side, and I'll just add in, and I'd love you to respond. But I think you're talking about people shying away from pain, I think black women specifically
we're like a pain vacuum, we live in it constantly
and it creates this shell that it's so hard to. And I think we're beginning
to talk more about this, like that's why we talk
about joy being resistance, and rest being resistance. These things that should be
just commonplace in people, it's like this act of resistance, because you are fighting
through so much of that. And so it's like that flip side of like who's holding all this pain, and then when we're
sharing our pain it's like, I don't know, I don't
know if I believe you, that can't be true. And so I think that's the struggle, when you're sharing these things, and then someone doubts
you and you're like, okay, I don't know what else I can say. - And how do you not internalize that, and you're like maybe it
isn't that big of a deal. So it all becomes--
- Oh it is. - Totally, but let's it sounds like-- - My therapist tells me. - I think it's the right question, and I think it's like, it resonates with you and you read it, and I talk to, it's not just women of color, it's any group that is
marginalized in any space. Says, yeah I want to be vulnerable too, but this armor, this armor keeps me alive, it keeps me employed. - Right, right, right. - So I understand you
want me to take it off. So here's the dilemma that
we're all trying to figure out, we have a belonging belief statement, it's like our equity inclusivity statement for my organization. And we have, I think
it's number five and six, and one of them says
we believe when we ask that many people wear armor to stay alive, to stay emotionally safe,
sometimes physically safe. And asking them to take it off is asking them to risk
physical, emotional, spiritual danger. Then the next one says, but we believe asking generations of people to have to wear armor every day until we achieve perfect justice is an unfair ask. So until there are more
black women leading, Modeling vulnerability, making it safe. Calling out people who said, "Did you just use her
vulnerability against her, "did you just use what she shared?" Until that, what is the answer? The thing is, there has got to be systemic change, we cannot see the micro and macro apart. You know what I mean, like
we have to move policy-wise, more representation into leadership where
there can be protection, there can be a mentoring, there
can be safety, real safety. And at the same time how do we say, you know what it can be better
for people in 40 or 50 years, you'll need to wear the 500
tons of armor every day, even if it fricking
kills you in the process. So like how can we do that? And I have to say I would
think the most organic ally for women of color in taking off armor and showing up authentically
should be white women. - Should be. - I don't know. - I mean I think it speaks to
how much whiteness is a drug. - I was gonna say, You're choosing your
whiteness over your womanhood. - Yeah, but even I watch the ways that white women suffer
upholding white supremacy. You're not benefiting from this. - No. - Right? Like there's something your
soul isn't benefiting from to be actually specific. Your spirit, your personality. - What you're driving might be... - Right, is not benefiting from this. And by separating from my pain you're separating from your own pain. - Totally. But I think there's something else, and I just don't, like I hate saying it, but I know it's true. It's also about men. - Say that. - It's also about I have made a deal, I am in a contract right now. And in order for me to get what I need, I will catch the drippings of the power from the white men around me and I will take those drippings and shape them into something for me. So that explains that white
female evangelical vote, that explains like, so it is a layer, it is layers of race, gender, class. It's almost like it's
easier for me to take the scraps of power and do
whatever I need to do to you than it is to fight for my own. Because generations, myself included, were not raised that way. And so I've come to believe,
this is my new belief, along with love, which
I'm trying to get to. Right now I'm just pissed off. - Which I think is fair. - Yeah, maybe pissed
off comes before love. - I think it does. - But like five years of pissed off? I'm tired of being that. - But think about how long
we've been doing this. - Forever. - Yeah, so five years
in the span of things. I mean I think there's so much
that we have to reckon with, that we have to wrestle with. And part of it too I think is actually, and I'm not old enough to feel
like I can say this really, but I think it's cyclical, I think there's times when we feel like, because I think the march towards justice is five steps forward three steps back. And I think that there are
times when we feel like, okay we're actually making progress. And then there are times
when it's like, wait, what? - Progressions, regressions,
progressions, regressions. - Exactly. - I really think white male power over, not power within two, the power over is really feeling that they're making a last stand. - Totally, it's like this final
roar before hopefully, yeah. - And I think last stands
are violent and dangerous, and many people are
fighting for their lives. And I really believe that
the systems in place, I don't believe in neutrality. - I agree.
- Totally. - I believe you are either
maintaining the systems or you are dismantling them. And for me that looks like when I'm asked to speak somewhere, I think about what it is
they want me to talk about, and the last three I've just
turned them down and said, there should be a woman of color. I'm not going to do that. Like follow, listen. Let others lead who have the experience. - That is not what white men want to hear. - That's not what anybody-- - Anybody. - No white people at all, white men or women want to hear that. And I don't know, we have got a real. I even think about the opioid epidemic being evidence of somehow
we have equated success with if you're successful that
means you don't feel pain. We have no me, and pain is part of the human experience, it's how we grow and stretch
and it's the stretchmarks. And so I don't think we can get where we need to go around race, gender, any of it, unless we're so good at causing pain, and very bad at feeling pain. - I think your work is amazing, but I've also seen it being used As a way of shielding, white people shielding
themselves from like, racism or even talking about it. It's like, shame is bad, don't
shame me I'm not a racist. - Don't call me a racist. - Yeah exactly, that's a shame. And I don't know whether
that stems from your work, but I think shame has become more of a vernacular that we use these days. But as you were talking I think there is that need for people, and I think it is a struggle for white people to sit in pain, because yes, that's a hard thing to hear. But if you don't recognize that and recognize that that's a wound in you. Because I think sometimes when we say, well I think that was a racist thing or that person is racist, it's like oh well, don't
say a bad thing about me. But it's identifying a wound, because that is a break in
connection with humanity. - With self, with world, with God. - Exactly, and so all of those things, so it's just like naming that thing. But people get so like, I
don't want to deal with that. And so for people like that I feel like there's nothing else I can say. We can't start there and say
yes, this is a racist tendency, I have racist tendencies in the world, if you don't want to say
I'm racist or whatever. But if you can't start there how do you move forward from that? And so I think that being able to sit in the pain of that and say yes. My history is filled with this, there has been abuse,
there's been genocide, all of that falls in the line of how I get to sit here
in this privilege today. And now what? How do we move forward? How do I hear things. How do I listen, how do I follow? - I mean it makes me like,
can shame be a tool towards, like better, like better. - I don't believe so. I absolutely do not believe, I believe shame is a tool of oppression, it will never be an effective
social justice tool, ever. It is the tool of stigmatizing,
reducing, dehumanizing. I do not believe it will ever
be a social justice tool. I think about I took this
whole course on Audre Lorde, and I think of this whole idea of the master's tools will not
dismantle the master's house. The shame is the tool of the patriarchy, it's the tool of nationalism,
it's the tool of supremacy. Why would we ever pick it up
to dismantle those things? - Even hearing you use those
other words, dehumanization, like that's helpful right, because so many people
use shame and discomfort, or shame and I don't like that. Interchangeably, as opposed to right like, dehumanization very different from I've made you uncomfortable. - I'm not dehumanizing you
by saying you are racist. - I would say, so here's what I would say as the shame purest. I would say there is a difference between that is a racist statement, a racist belief and you are a racist. I would say there's a big difference, and I'll tell you what difference is. And I know I'm in weird territory
here talking about this. If, let's just take it out of this room and use a very simple example. You've got a child, this is always a debate
when I do parenting work. Who has told you a lie, and
you said you can't do that, you can't lie. What is the difference
between that and saying, "Hey, you're a liar."? The difference is that shame corrodes our belief that we can
change or be better, so if you are a racist there
is no intervention point, what is the change, it's who you are. If you're a liar it's who you are. If you're bad versus you
made a bad choice as a kid, you're just bad. And so the way shame specifically
disproportionately used as a classroom management
tool with children of color, with poor kids, with kids. And so the difference is if you say, that is a very racist response. Or there was so much deep racism in that. There is an intervention point, I have to change a belief or behavior, this is not about who I am. - Dr. Kendi just came out with this book. And in his introduction
he talks about the fact that we can toss around who's racist and who's not forever, try to scale it up and take a test and here's your quiz and all these things. - I would love that actually. - Right. and he's like, but at the end of the day we have to deal
with the racist thought, with the racist policy,
with the way racism is manifesting itself in the world and leave who is or who isn't at the door, because trying to figure
that out isn't working. It's taking too much of our energy and focus off of actually dismantling these things that are maintaining it, whether or not we're involved or not. - Right, and I think that's
the hard thing about shame. It's like, I'm a worrier when it comes to my kids and things, and I'm always worst-case
scenario and things, even though I tell people
not to do that in my books. Researcher heal thyself. I get it, I'm working on it, you don't have to be Freud to know why I write about shame and these things, because I suck at all of them. But if I thought you could
shame someone into changing, even knowing how much
pain shame causes us, I would probably do it. But what we know, I probably would just to protect my kids, to
protect things I believe in. But here's what we know, if you look at shame pro-ness
in the general population, it is so highly correlated
with blame, rationalization, violence, suicide, addiction, depression, aggression. Shame is not a moral compass, what it causes us to do is to double down, defend, blame, rationalize. Does that make sense? And so if someone said to me, I just think if a teacher says to me, "God you're stupid." How do you get out from underneath that? As opposed to look, you made D minus, real stupid decision not
to study for this test. Who you are versus the choices you make, it's a huge difference and
we have a massive outcome. Because I'll tell you the difference between shame and guilt. Is I've never had a
conversation about race where I did not painfully have
to learn one new blind spot. Ever. And I just keep getting in them because that's the only way through, that's it, that's it. And I think I'll tell you the other thing that's very different for me then I think, because I am a social worker, and because I've spent the last 22 years at the
University of Houston, most racially and ethnically diverse research university in the country. So my class is always
25% African-American, 25% white, 25% Latina. That when I ask questions like: tell me your instant bias, it's always a black student
will raise their hand and say, if you cut me off and you got an old car and you get out and you're Asian, I'm gonna be like, hey, this isn't China. The black students are talking
about their racism and bias, the Asian students are talking about it. The Muslim students are talking about it. I remember I wrote about
this in one of the books, it may have been "Daring Greatly", I remember we did an exercise
where everyone in the class had to talk about their privilege and what privilege they had. Because I'm like, "You've got something, "because this is graduate school, "so you've got some privilege somewhere. "We're in graduate school." - Right. - And I remember there was just quiet, and I think the white
students were really nervous. They were like oh man, she
doesn't understand how it works, she said this is like a white exercise. And finally a young black woman raised her hand and she said, "I wear my faith around
my neck every day." She had a cross. And she said, "And I can wear
it without people assuming "that I'm dangerous or
I'm trying to kill them." And a Latino student
raised his hand and said, "I love to go to the movies, "I love to hold hands with my wife. "I don't have to worry about
getting hit over the head with a baseball bat because I'm holding hands with someone." And it was the most deeply humanizing, you know like white supremacy is as real as us sitting in this
beautiful living room. If we don't call it that, we can't fix it. All the people from Texas who are like, oh my God those are our statues. I'm like, what makes me so proud of being a Texan, it is "know better do better". Do you know what I mean like changing the Albert Sidney Johnston School to the Barbara Jordan proud Texas moment. But there's so much fear. - And it's way the system was set up, it's set up to create
fear and to separate us so that we don't think about. And I think we were just
talking about white women and women of color, that division, that's intentional, right? - Oh it serves tons of people. - Exactly. You take this little, you get the rest of those little
scraps and then fighting-- - Amongst yourselves. - When we know that there
would be, like you said-- - That's it. - It would be our greatest ally, we would be each others greatest ally. Women, black women were a major part of the feminist movement, even when they knew that they weren't gonna get the right to vote. There were black women saying, I'm still gonna fight for this. So I think we see what happens, but then white supremacy says,
you're better off separate. And this would be better for
us at the end of the day, and we get nothing done, we just keep like fighting for that. - A fight amongst yourself is the most silent dangerous
tool of oppression. - Totally. - I mean it is. And you see we have an administration now that just pushes so much divisiveness and so much fear. - Fear everyone. Fear everyone, fear everything. - Every day. - Just be afraid all the time. - Well it's working, because I am. - Yeah, no, it's totally working. It is like power 101. If you want to rule the world
there's just a few secrets, one, keep everyone really afraid. Two, give them someone
to blame for their fear. And sell them certainty in
times of mass vulnerability. That's it. That's it, that's all you have to do. Give them someone to
hate, someone to blame, keep them afraid, and peddle uncertainty
when everyone's unsure. It sounds good to me,
but I'm really afraid, I just know it makes
everyone crazy and dangerous. - Yeah, I don't know how to like, I have all these like
random, disparate thoughts, I heard an interview with you
what you're defining blame as a way to discharge pain and discomfort, and then I'm quoting you again, where you can either have
courage or you can have comfort, you can't have both. And I wonder if white women are choosing comfort over
courage again and again. That there's like a known with just maintaining white supremacy, there is a known with upholding the patriarchy
that feels comfortable, and that is somehow appealing
and keeping us complacent. Right? So how do you make courage, yeah like be inevitable? - Desirable? - Yeah, how do you make that so compelling that it's worth to leave that, yeah, and I would say
that I think your work is encouraging individuals
to leave individual comfort. How do we take that and like multiply it, and make it a massive, let's
all be doing this together? - I thought it was gonna be at church. I don't know, I have moments
I'm in Episcopal pain, there are moments where we
had the Episcopal meet up of all the bishops and
stuff recently in Texas and they went to the detention
centers on the border in full regalia, and they had an anti-gun rally and so I was really proud at that moment of the Episcopal Church, because that's how you keep white people with money at the church. So I don't know, I was hoping the faith communities would lead a little some of that, because it seems like Jesus
is a great example of someone who was willing to piss off
people and be a rebel around. Collective courage, it's interesting, I don't think it takes
a whole lot of people. It takes a critical mass of people. - When I think about every
social movement we've had, none of them have involved everyone. - Right.
- Right. - Always people who are
fighting against it, right? But the committed push on anyway. - And I think it's policy, I think you've got to change policy. I think oh man, I saw this graphic, hold on, let me think about what it said. It was Angela Davis
holding a sign that said racism is systemic, its violent
outbursts are all connected. And so racism is systemic, its violent outbursts are all connected. Like rhetoric around
immigrants that's dehumanizing, and then the El Paso
shooting, theory, action. And so we're reading
the new anti-racism book as our organization, our
company redirect now, and the whole idea of system
change, policy change. And weirdly in some ways corporations are doing a better job, they are much less tolerant in some ways than our
government right now. - I think that's again,
because of Title Nine, and other policies-- - I think it's other policies. - That says you must look at this. - But I think also though that we have seen all these companies get reamed for doing things
that are really insensitive, but I think there's also, not to be crass, but it's more profitable, the more diverse you are the
better you can reach out to, because our world is just
becoming more diverse, in some ways you have to
start doing those things, you have to start changing if
you want to keep making money. But our government doesn't have to. - But you know that's really, not only is that a really
great point, I'll take it. - Oh yeah. - I'm sold. Like I'll take it. Because it's really
interesting when you go, because I do a lot of leadership work, and you go to these leadership events and you'll have people presenting, you can see that companies
are pretty terrified because they're like
for the first time ever there are consumers
who can organize online in 10 minutes and bring
down a brand or a company. So these big companies
that want diverse consumers need diverse leaders. And so I'll take it that way. - We have got to start somewhere. - Right, and I just, I don't know, I just
always was a big believer in we should have a government that takes care of the
most vulnerable people, and I just don't know
that the government is. - Right, we really need to
be changing hearts and minds, if at the end of the day
we can change the outcome, like if we can, right? - I mean that's like-- - I think we have to do both. - For sure. - But I will take that. - Exactly, it's the outcome that changes. - Because when people are
dying and on the street, then yes, I want to policy change. But I know that that won't sustain us unless people start coming behind that. There is some sort of change. But trust me, I want both, I want protection-- - I'm with you. - But I also want, I want just for my own
self and for the future, my niece and my nephew
and the kids that I see, I want a world where they don't have to keep struggling like this. When I'm any role when I'm in a position, like you were talking about always think about who's coming behind me and how am I creating a
space where people are like, you know what, this is better. - Totally. - We may have had to do
this, but now this is better, because we're seeing things
from a different perspective. There is no way you can
make the best decision and everybody around
the table is the same. You just can't. - You just can't. - It's just impossible. - At the end of the day there's
just so much data on it now. Like just companies that have women, Companies that have people of
color, they just do better, they perform better. - Exactly, and that's in every aspect. And I'm glad corporations are doing it, but churches should be doing this, or schools should look better. We see the impact of people who have teachers who look like them, I didn't have a teacher
that looked like me, a professor that looked
like me or a teacher that looked like me until
I was in grad school. - Yep, I was in college. - What does that do to your psyche, and some in every space I think
we have to start doing that. But I'm hoping that places
that are modeling this, because it's better for their bottom line, it's gonna start something that we start seeing this everywhere, even in places where
they're not making a profit. But we got better leaders,
we get better employees. - It's just better. And not seeing yourself,
not seeing yourself. I remember first year of my
doctoral program I went to like, I don't know there was like, I forget, we had a new
president coming in, so they sent an academic from every university in the country and they walk down in a line like in Harvard's version of
the oldest university, and I just remember looking over to the person sitting next
to me and I was like, and he looked at me and
he goes, "pale male Yale". And I was like, yeah. Oh my God. And then I got pregnant
in my doctoral program and I remember the person telling me, my doctoral program director at the time, we thought you were gonna be somebody. And I was like, it's like
a baby, not a lobotomy. - I can still work. Yeah I can do this, but just not seeing
yourself reflected back in the world that you want to be a part of and make a contribution in. - And then that sends the message that you don't belong here. - And that's the painful message. - Are you have to be like us, if you want to even attempt to belong. It's not a fully open door. - You don't want to notice that you actually aren't one of us. - Right and I think that was what was painful about your book. Yeah painful, that's the
only word I can think of. Eye opening, healing,
but right after the pain like there was the pain
and then the other part. And I just think people
are not willing to fill it. - Yeah, well I've said this to you I think your book gave
language to a like of similar, I think what you've
talked about in your work, that it's getting language to things that seemingly
go hidden or invisible, until you actually let people into them. Yeah like, I know this isn't just like a yay for Austin's book, but it could be. - I'm for it. - Okay great, when you go through your day-- - Oh my God. - I feel that that was the ballgame, that for so many people was like holy, that was one day, that was one day, and just thing after thing after thing. That's weighing you down and
that you had no outlet for it. - And I know, I think I read it before it was even published, so you sent it to me, and I remember I responded, I was like, "thank you for writing this, this is my story." - You did, I remember. - I felt like this is,
this is me on paper. And we worked in the same institution, we didn't know each other
until like the very end. But I remember the
first time we had coffee and there were very few, I think-- - Maybe five. Maybe out of 250. - Yeah, like five women. - Not even women. - No, just by black people. - Black people, yeah. So I remember sitting down with you and, I don't know why we met but I just remember it
was an hour or two later, and we're like why have we not. - I wanted to climb in her lap. - It was just-- - Yeah, it was the most
healing space that I had ever. And we worked at a church. And I will always say for black women the most healing space you can ever be in as with other black women, because at that moment you're finishing each other's sentences, you don't even have to, but they know. - And they believe you. - Exactly, you don't have to qualify it. And I think that is one of
the most exhausting things, it's like when you are, when you are walking through
this and you take the most, step out in courage and saying I'm gonna share this with someone. Who's not like me, and
they don't believe you. - So painful. It's so painful. - And people wonder, they
always talk about strong women, black women, and that has been because you get that, you retreat right back
and you put that back up. And you're like, you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just
gonna soldier through. And what kind of life is that? That's not wholehearted
living like you're talking, that is not it at all. It is just, and then, but it takes so much
time to undo all of that. And I am grateful because I think there is this revolution between black women where we're finding each
other in more spaces, and we're starting to say, even if the world doesn't
support you, we've got your back. We will be behind you as we do this, and I'm hoping that
creates even more change. But it takes an army, for every black woman you see out there doing whatever she's doing, you know there is a massive
group of people behind her That are-- - Cheering her on, supporting her.
- Supporting her, cheering her and saying we got you. - Listening and believing. - Without question. And I think that's the thing that I, and I'm not gonna say that I don't, I have white women in
my life that are amazing and will believe me, and that is the healing thing
in itself when you are like, okay, now I have found you
and I will hold on to you, but that's not everybody. And it is hard to get into that, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I'm very distrustful, I just assume the worst immediately. - Oh you better come with
a resume, cover letter. - Evidence. - Yeah, because the betrayal history. It's like the betrayal history. - There's a movie that Jenny and I saw when we were in college, I think this part two
of "The Color of Fear", I don't think it was the
original "Color of Fear". I think they did a couple more and there's one with just women, multiracial women sitting in a group. And there was a white woman who was crying and talking about how
she's trying to be loving and kind to the black women in the room and the black women just ignores her and won't give her a chance, and it just hurts her heart
that she isn't trusted. And the black woman, like you
watch her inhale and exhale. And she says, "I need you to know "that every time I form a relationship with another white person I am crawling on my hands and knees over the broken shards of other relationships
where I was betrayed." - But I also believe, like I read this, you cannot lead a diverse team if you do not lead a diverse life. - Yes.
- Hot damn. - Hot damn. - Yes. - I just think, all my gosh, yes. - Is that the great quote? - That does not just mean being married to or having a child of color. - Oh my God, they think
that's the golden ticket. - It's like my spouse, or people talk about we want to work on diversity in our company, let's have a workshop, let's have a class. I'm like, that's not gonna do anything. - It's not a one and done. - If the people you're learning from is not a diverse group of authors, if you don't have a
diverse group of friends, the movies should you go see,
the music that you listen to, the world that you immerse-- - Movies, music, yes. - All of that stuff, you can't be reading the
same people all the time and then say you care about diversity. Like show me your life, and then I'll tell you whether or not-- - You care about diversity. - Yeah. - And in their neighborhoods. - Yes.
- Yes. - If you have to get on a plane to go somewhere to see people of color - Right. - Oh my gosh. Well we used to do an activity
when we would lead workshops where we gave everyone marbles, and then we went down
a list and it was like, watch the last two
restaurants you went to. Did the people look like you are not? What's the last movie you watched? And down, down, down, down. And then you get this inventory of either, and usually it is-- - Like here is your representation. - Here's your representation. - Are all your models white. - Yes, or are they a different color. And it was like so
powerful just to see that and to realize you have power over every single one of these choices. - That's right, this isn't big stuff. - Yeah, this is not crazy. Like who did you invite
over for dinner last Sunday. What book did you, no one is telling you
you cannot read books. No one is screening you for movies, these are all things that
you have agency over. - We want you to participate in culture. - Right. - And hopefully-- - That's true, right. And it's like, and I think
about the diverse life I've led, and how I can't deny. I remember the first time
I am a shopper for sure, but I can remember the first time I was ever followed in a store. I was with a black friend and we were at the store
that will remain unnamed, and we were just shopping-- - This time. - This would be Brene
Brown outs the store. - No, yeah, it would not be a shockeroo in Texas about the store. And I was with my friend Eliza, and we were working together at child protective services in Houston, I mean in San Antonio, and I was like, God, this
guy is flirting hard core. Eliza was like. - That is not what's happening. - She looks at me and she goes, "You cute, but you ain't that cute." I was like, "What?" And she goes, "Watch, I'll
make him flirt with me." And I was like, "What are you gonna do?" And she said, "I'm just gonna
move over here 10 feet." And I was like what is happening. And then I was like, oh my God he's following
us because you're black. And he thinks we're shoplifting. I'm gonna go, and she's like, "Oh no, white savior, I do not need you." And she's like, "I got to
be back at work in an hour, I will not have time to
go to jail right now." - But this is so real, the ways that black women
and other women of color, other people of color have to navigate actual instances
of racism on a regular basis and decide I do not have
time for the shenanigans. - Exactly. - And it was like, this
is unconstitutional. This is bullshit. And she goes, "Oh my God, write about it in a paper for school." And I was like-- - That happens to me. - Then we go out on a visit and we're in a hard neighborhood, and we're pulling up to a light and there's a group of
kids and they look rough, and she goes "lock your door." And I was like, "I'm not locking my door." I said, "I'm not locking the door." I was like, "That's so racist." She said, "I'm not dying
because of your white guilt. "I'm not gonna die today because
you're a white guilty girl, "lock your door." I was like, and this was
every interaction we had, so I was like, oh. And she goes, "Okay." Then, this gets worse. Then like a month later
I'm in Kansas City, and again I'm doing work with a friend, she is black, she goes, "I've never had a white person
over in my house before." And I was like, "You're
old, like we're 40." and she's like, "Never." She's like, "Do you want to
come over for dinner tonight?" and I was like, "Yes." and she said, "I'm gonna make soul food." And I was like, "I'm so excited"
because any kind of food, that sounds really good. I was so bummed out, we get to her house, she's like, "Come in." I was like, "Stop giving me the side eye, "I'm not gonna take anything." And she's like, "All
right, here's dinner." and it was like country ribs, greens, and I was like, "I was
excited about soul food." And she's like, "What?" And I said, "I was excited that
we were gonna eat soul food" And she said, "This is soul food." And I said, "I eat this at my
grandma's house every Sunday." She said, "You grandma black?" Because she is like, "I think
that's where Brené came from." And I was like, "No, my grandma is white." And she's like, "She's southern and poor?" and I'm like, "Yes." She's like, "Okay" Yes and what I realized is like, one of the things I have in common I think with a lot of
my black girlfriends, not all, but many, the first was class. Was like upbringing, was church, but when you lead that life and you have friends that
are different from you, you can't get to the
pain point in your book. And deny the truth of it, because you're the friend they're crying with in the elevator. But I don't know how we're gonna fix that, because as we come more
fearful we become more sorted. I mean we literally people are moving. - We get our corners. - We are the most sorted geographically in the history of our country. That we have ever been, there's this great book
called "The Big Sort" that talks about the shifting demographic where people don't even want
to go to grocery stores, or church or their kids go to school with people who believe-- So how, if we all agree, and I think we agree right that you have to live a diverse life, if you're gonna be a diverse person? - Yeah, I think the lack of
proximity is a huge issue. And our work spaces, some of them have diverse
some of them are not. But if you are in one, even that is it's very compartmentalized, where it's like okay,
this is what I do here, then I go to my neighborhood
and all of my neighbors, they look all the same, our churches are even more segregated. - I think they are the
most segregated now. - I don't think it's getting better. Our schools, that's a whole other. The thing is I think it's
like I think at some point we have to, it's about the choices that we make, so how do we. Because all those things add up, so we want good schools for our kids, and yet so that means, I got to pick a school in
the wealthy neighborhood and want to make sure. And it's all good intentions, right? Like I want my kid to be safe, I want them to have a good education, I want them to be able to get a great job. So what does that mean? I have to pull myself away and make sure everything around me brings safety for my kids and that they're gonna succeed. And at some point I think
we have to think about what's best for the greater good. It's not just about my kid,
but it's about the other kids. And not just in our
neighborhood, but in our city. I think we just don't
think about those things. It's all like how do I protect my own? - Well it's hyper-individualized, which is also probably a
tool of white supremacy, because you're only thinking
about the individual, you're not thinking
about a collective ever. So not only making all of
those choices out of that. - When you're thinking
about the collective it's still built on racist ideals. So the difference between the good school and the bad school, what does that mean, does
that mean black and white, or does that actually mean resource poor. - Test scores. - And is there a place in our imaginations where a good school
could be the diverse one? - There is a sharing of resources, we're not hoarding all
the resources in one part. - And everybody gets a free lunch. - Exactly. - That defines a good school. - I'm gonna be the terrible person here. - Do it.
- Go ahead. - That's gonna have to be policy change, no one is going to do that. No one, when it comes to their kid, is going to make a
collective political choice over the safety and
education of their child if they have the resources
to make the change. That is gonna have to be, that is gonna have to be like. Do you think I've just gotten-- - No but this is the thing-- - Do I not believe in people
any more, like what's? - I think there's proof. - We've segregated, there was policy that integrated schools and what happened was that
white people are like, hell no, I'm not gonna do this. - Let me get out of the policy. - I'm moving-- - White flight. - Yeah, we're gonna create, we'd rather see that's cool just fail than send our kids there. So they have to figure
out a way to fix it. So I think that even with policy people have to want that. Because they will figure
out a way around it. - Right. - So here's the good news. I'm gonna give you some good news. On a drink share. - Cheers to good news. - Cheers to good news. I hate going back to this because I am the last evangelist for corporations, but I will say that one
of the things I'm seeing is there has been a
little bit of a loss of that kind of infatuation with the Ivys, because they are looking more at hiring people who have had
exposure to diverse people and can move around people comfortably. So again. - There are a lot of awkward
white people in the world. - Oh my God. Let me tell you something. I am probably one of them too. but I will tell you all this story. I took a class, I tell
this story sometimes to help people understand
some of the things. So there was a class at UT
Austin called The Black Family, and I took this class
and I was super excited that Professor of this class, Ruth McRoy famous trans-racial adoption
expert, just incredible. And I go in and the class
is probably 90% black. And I go in and I have a
seat next to a friend of mine who is in the social work program. And we're talking, she is black, and we are talking and class starts and Doctor McRoy comes to the front, she just commands, everybody's quiet. She started to talk about the black family and then in bops this young woman, blonde, big ponytail. And I'm like, don't sit next to me,
don't sit next to me. No, no, no, no. And she's coming and my friend goes, "She's coming for you." And I was like, oh my God. So she sits next to me and
Doctor McRoy is talking. And she goes. - Oh no. - And you can just see me, I'm like, I was like, and she goes, "Here's the question I have." - Oh God. - She said, "if there was a class at the University of Texas at Austin called The White Family, people would say that was racist. And Doctor McRoy she
doesn't move a muscle, she's just like, "What's interesting there are 77 courses at the University of Texas on the family, all of them by default
would be the White family. And there was just like, if looks could kill this person. So by this time my ass is
all the way hanging on, I'm in the lap of my friend
over here, and she says. - I'm not here. - She's like, "Don't worry,
we can tell you all apart." I was like, oh my God. But every class period she would a, but there were like 75 classes. - What kills me is that
white people actually think they've come up with a new thing. - No, it's nothing original. - She really believed that she was gonna march into that room-- - She's gonna razzle-dazzle. - And a professor was not
going to have a response. - That's true. - This is reverse racism, it does exist. - It was. - And you found it. - That's the one with the label. - But it's like I thought that answer, and I don't usually share
that whole part of the story, I just share the question, but don't share my own
awkward white person. Anyway. - Professor I'd just like to
say you're doing a great job. - And I understand clearly
why we need this class. Could you imagine that? - Got Brené Brown. - My name is Cassandra. Just in case that makes a difference. - Cassandra Brené Brown here. But it was just when people say, I don't understand what does that mean, I was like, unless the class
is about the black family or the Latino family, the
default is the white family. That means, all of the
research, all of the books, all of the writers, all of the studies. Just like when breast cancer
research first came out, all the studies on breast cancer on men. People are dying. And so, they're like so, the dominant one's invisible? - I'm like, welcome. - I'm sorry that you're in a grad school that you're learning this. That is mind blowing. But it's not. - This is actually an undergrad
class, I'll give her that. - There are a lot of aha-- - She didn't stop asking. - Of course not - Right. - Because that's the difference
I think white people, it doesn't even matter if they are the minority in the group, they will always take up the comfortable - As much space as they can. - Yes exactly. And it's always shocking to me, you just feel comfortable in any space you walk into. But that's-- - Actually. - Yeah exactly. Because I'm not, like I know what I want, I'm like I'm sizing up everything. - I know immediately whether
or not I need to shrink. - Yes, exactly. And I never see that,
and this just like wow. That is, it's impressive. And not probably in a good way. I was like impressive or entitled. - But when you don't experience that, it can mask as bravery and mask as-- - Oh it's not bravery. - Well it's not, but not
until we have unpacked it, as a black woman who was
often in rooms as the only one who's watching other women, white, but other women command a room. And I'm like, I know I have that in me. - Is it bravery or is it confidence or is i? - Usually in my head I'm
like well that's bold. - What I think entitled is the right word. - I think entitled is the right word. - I think it is, but is it
coming across, I wonder, yeah. - I think it's entitlement and I think it's built on a
foundation of physical safety. - Wherever you go. - I think it's an assumption
of physical safety. Like you know, and so I think-- - It's true, there are. This is really interesting, because white people so often
think of themselves as safe, that their neighborhoods are safe and their schools are safe, and they have done all
this work around safety. And they're not safe for people of color. But they would never think
that about themselves. So like the black neighborhood is the place that is not safe. As opposed to me being in this
ritzy corporate organization, like that's where I'm not safe. - Or in an all-white neighborhood. - Wow, talk about not feeling safe. - It's like the opening of "Get Out". - Exactly. - Where he's walking and he's like, I don't want to be here. - And I feel the temperature
in my body rising. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- That's real. - That's real. - Yeah, I just read this interesting study that slowing people down
can reduce implicit bias. And so there is like, what is like one of the social
media group website things where you can check on things
like Next-door Neighbor, or Next Door or something like that? - Yeah I think it's Next Door. - Where they have a lot of like kinda racist profiling of like, you know Mexican guy in the neighborhood. Or you know. So she's a professor and a researcher, and they reduced that
racial profiling by 75% by having people before
they could register a complaint or a fear, check three boxes. One of them is the definition
of racial profiling. And you have to check that you have read the definition of that. And that just slowed people down enough, and it's like how do we slow people down to recognize the
dehumanization, you know like-- - So there is a Harvard implicit bias test where you have to press
the keys to identify scary, harmful, whatever. And the only instruction if
I'm remembering correctly, the only instruction is
that you have to do it fast. Because if you slow your brain down you can interrupt the bias. - That's right. - But that's how things
happen, they happen so quickly. I see that person, I probably
don't even see their face, all I see is their skin
color or how they're dressed. - Some sort of marker. - Whatever that is. I'm gonna make my own
decision and call the cops. - Or pull the trigger. - That's why representation-- - And that's why that
marble class matters, that if you're trying to
disrupt all of those norms to like offset all of these stereotypes that you're getting. - Accumulating. - Yeah, that you're accumulating that your subconscious is absorbing, because that message is
coming in from all of us and we have to like, we have to seek out alternative messaging. - But we also need to fight for leaders. Leaders of color. I was just listening to
Stacey Abrams talk about, like you know, because people are like, oh yeah, you should run for president, and she's like no, I was
focused on the governorship. She's like, there's power in that, and think about how many
governors of color we have. Like you need that, it
can't just be the president, it's got to be at all levels. - And we've seen that. - Yeah, exactly. That didn't fix anything. - Intervention has to be, yeah. No, and yeah. - There's a lot of work to do. - There is a lot of work to do, and I think it's, I just think it's got to be micro and macro at the same time, it's got to be the
promotion for the manager that works at Starbucks and the governor and the top leaders and it's gonna be, and I hope you open your
heart and come with us. But if you don't that's okay too, because we're going. Does that make sense? - We're not through, I agree. - This is an invitation. I'd like to come along
the journey, that's great. But you can also just sit on the sidelines of history if that's
what you choose to do. - And we'll wave at you as we walked by. - But we have to. And I think people in fear are dangerous. And I think for some reason,
well not for some reason, we've got nothing but that rhetoric for the last three years, that power is finite. If I give you a piece that means I'll have seven pieces left, as opposed to what I think we all believe, which its power is infinite and the more you share
it the more you grow it. It's like empathy or
compassion or anything, it's just not finite. - There's enough, there's enough. - There's enough. We are enough, and there's enough. And I think my commitment
is to really keep looking and talking about the grief that happens, I think especially for women of color who read my book and say, yes, I'm dying under this armor, but it's not safe for me to take it off. I resonate with everything you say, but perfect allows me to keep
putting food on the table. And until we get more, to be honest with you, not female leaders, but women of color in leadership positions and leader positions outside of DNI, outside of HR. - I mean. - Yes we need them there too. - I mean I love talking about
diversity and inclusion, don't get me wrong, that's my jam, but we should not be relegated to that. - COO, CFO, CEO. It's got to be in places where
the focus is just not people. Because just like you mention, it is the right thing
for the bottom dollar, for the consumer, for every piece of it. And it's okay to have more
than one woman of color in your C suite, that's all I'm gonna say. It won't blow up. - It always will in all the right ways. - And I think we all have
work to do, myself included. Everybody. - What I feel like if black women have to read all these books, and watch these documentaries
and understand history, if we have to do all this work. White people, I'm gonna need for you not to take
yourselves off the hook. - Read the book, throw it
across the room, get it. - Do what you got to do. - And reread it. - I'm in for the long walk. - Oh yes thank you, thank you Brené. - Thanks for having me. - We don't know how to adjust the fact that this stuff
is still in the air. People tell the story like Dr. King preached
the I Have a Dream speech, and then ascended into heaven. - Especially an anti-racism work, I say that black women are
100% experts regardless. - Yes. - I am deeply invested
in building movements where folks aren't shamed for
not coming out of the womb, understanding cis hetero
patriarchal violence. - Prison isn't addressing trauma, it's not addressing violence. Prison is a place of trauma and violence. - Everything in the news is
just like beating us down. I want to see stories about black women succeeding and thriving. - Black folks in a white space. - Listen, you find each other. - You may not have shit in common, but you're gonna be friends, right? - I love all the warmup
questions, I really. - I was like, "Hell, we're here."
