EP 144: Glinner is a TERF with Graham Linehan

hi Stella we had your friend Graham linahan on today I guess we could both call him a friend now yeah yeah I'm really I was really really glad to have him on and I I didn't think he'd kind of come on because he kind I don't think he kind of likes kind of long analytical conversations but it was actually I thought it was a very I thought it was a nice conversation we had with them and um we we brought him on mostly because of his book he's got his book out tough crowd it's a lovely it's a great read I really recommend people getting it for Christmas for their because it's a very good way for people to give it to their brothers or their uncles or their family members and it's a way into trans through a comedy writer and he writes a lot about being a comedy writer and you know the the the kind of the life he had and then he brings trans into it so it's it's not kind of a book about trans yeah it becomes a book about trans so it's it's a lovely read for people who mightn't be um completely absorbed in the issue but it was a good conversation I thought we had with grae he's a fascinating character yeah you've known him for many years when did you guys meet oh we don't know each other for many years since 2018 uh we knew each other he he got into gender the very same year as I got into gender and like I say weirdly enough I his my mother knows his mother and that's very Irish and I know his his sister and stuff but yeah we became friends I suppose we're both Irish and uh both from Dublin and uh we there was kind of a kinship almost immediately with the two of us and yeah yeah we've become friends you know there's no doubt about it yeah um I'm very fond of him actually yeah he's very honest he speaks with a real cander and like an enthusiasm and a kind of a truthfulness and that's something I really appreciated about our conversation and I was really interesting to hear like all the kind of twists and turns and of course he's taken a huge personal uh like a lot of personal criticism and I mean he was telling us that he's had something like 75 hit pieces written about him just in pink news alone so you know I really admire his willingness to speak about something he feels very passionate about that he thinks is telling the truth and doing so at a great personal cost you know it's really a big deal could I say something about that because I got to know him like he was so huge in 2018 he hadn't yet been cancelled you know the cancellation was coming and he he was so huge and so famous and everybody thought people would follow his lead you know what I mean that it was like when JK ring joined the debate everybody thought people will join in they didn't but he was the first very famous person to speak up and I remember um he became a kind of a HQ for gender that everybody would send him things to plug and so he would be plugging this and plugging that and plugging the other just out of generosity and trying to lift everybody up with him but what that looked like to the world was he was obsessed with gender rather than people were messaging him constantly please plug this please plug that please lift this please retweet this please this so he was getting that all the time and I saw it and he would continuously because he's kind of got that generous and as he calls himself himself the white night thing he likes to save people and so he was continuously retweeting and plugging things all the time and then he he became obsessed as you would as we all did I certainly did but I do think that gets lost on people that there was a generosity at the heart of that you know yeah totally so I'll read his bio and then we'll let listeners kind of uh hear it from the horse's mouth as they say so Graham Lanahan was born in Dublin and he's The Mastermind behind beloved sitcom's father Ted The IT Crowd black boots and motherland his substack is dedicated to monitoring the extremes of gender identity ideology and he also co-hosts the highly successful weekly YouTube show the mess we're in which has garnered a remarkable 1.5 million views in just 3 years so here's our conversation with graham linahan hi I'm Stella omali a psychotherapist in Ireland and I'm Sasha aad an adolescent therapist in the United States through in-depth interviews personal stories and psychological exploration we probe the gender landscape within contemporary culture and we consider the implications of prioritizing personal identity over other aspects of the self this is the thinking person's take on gender join us as we look at gender from a wider [Music] lens well hello there Sasha and gra hi um uh this has been a long time coming I think anybody who follows me and gra would know that we're good pals and have been really since we first met each other over the over the trenches of gender but funly enough you know my mother knows gr's mother so it's very Irish really and I know his sister yeah but anyway you're very welcome gra and we're delighted to have you thank you thank you very much I'm delighted to be here yeah this is going to be a funny one for me cuz I kind of know you too well but we're going to let Sasha lead the way maybe on this one but um uh I think I I I I'm particularly delighted you come up you've come on at this point because you've just written this book and I think this book is very very important because it gives a proper representation of who you are and where you came from and I think there was an awful lot of misinformation and disinformation on about you in the last few years yeah absolutely I mean one of the as far as I'm concerned the most important line in the book is um that I am the victim of Village gos gossip on a global scale you know uh as as are we all we've all been suffering because of this uh the Chinese Whispers uh uh spread by trans rights activists um with their kind of resulting effects on our careers and on our sanity um so I realized that uh Twitter never did it and never seem to be able to explain myself on Twitter uh even my substack which I which I you know when I was banned from Twitter I would update myself constantly sending out posts almost as much as I used to send out tweets you know uh but like um uh sorry I I can't remember where I was going um but like uh uh uh yeah I mean it for me it's just been kind of firefighting trying to explain what I'm what I I believe trying to explain that it's not bigotry it's concern for these uh kids and and uh other victims of uh of this movement um but nothing was sinking in to to the extent that even my closest friends and and sometimes family members um would repeat to me uh rumors and lies that had been spread about me so I realized a book was the only way I could do it yeah and and you've been in this gender conversation for a really long time you and I have only interacted I think once we connected once and talked on the phone I believe some years ago but um I'm wondering what when you started to notice something a Miss regarding the trans debate did you think that there was a risk in speaking out or was the backlash you received a bit of a shocker to you cuz I think a lot of us feel uncertain of what is going to happen if we speak out about this so can you take us back I guess to what did you notice when did you speak out and did you anticipate how detrimental it was going to be on kind of a professional level for you well I think I I followed a similar trajectory that that a lot of people follow in this fight or or the the people who decide to enter it after a while who don't have such a a a personal or professional con ction as as you guys do um and that's basically you research it you you look at you look into the issue and you see if you've missed anything and you listen listen to the arguments and and test them and I did I did spend a long time doing that and trying to figure out if I if I had got it right or not you know I remember one of the arguments I found extremely convincing when I first heard it and have since discarded uh was the idea that there's always been trans people about they're just break now you know and that kind of stands up for about 10 seconds before you realize it's it's it's uh it's nonsense because I I to to to to to put it one way I I really think Shakespeare would have noticed them you know be because he noticed everything else in humanity the fact that he missed this one I just don't think it's likely so uh and there's lots of other examples of of that there's never really you know there crossdressing of course and there's uh dysphoria but I hadn't seen it was only I I I it was only with this movement that I realized they were trying to say there was actually a a a a a uh a for a part of humanity that were quote unquote trans and uh I again I I in the early days I kind of thought well yes that's that's probably true in the sense that some people are transexuals and they need to go through these extremely um uh uh grave uh changes to their body in order to quell some restlessness in their mind I thought that's fair enough but soon I realized that they weren't the ones being talked about you know there was a there was a kind of a new cohort which was transgender which really meant anything anyone wanted it to me and it was around then that his started thinking hang on a second [Laughter] you know because it didn't really have um it didn't feel truthful and it also felt too vulnerable uh to being hijacked by bad people which is exactly I think what's happened uh you know the examples of of of male sex offenders in women's prisons and uh uh various different types of people who who are using this movement to really just get what they want you know so once I realized there was all these things going on I was getting braver and braver uh and I guess the final you know thing that pushed me over the edge was was knowing that it this things were being done to children that I simply you know did not agree with um I couldn't find any uh yeah sorry Stella no well I'm I'm very interested I suppose I I I wanted to kind of I wanted a little bit of a glimpse of where would you have been at let's say in the '90s I know in the '90s would have been presumed the father head Father Ted Heyday and you would have been I presume schmoozing with all the other comedy writers I don't know what your life was like but where where would what would have you been your perception of trans then like if you could just non-existent non-existent like I didn't even know it was a thing like like you know I knew there were um I knew about transexualism but I hadn't really you know the the cliche they always say this is a tiny minority of people you know and sure it was a tiny minority of people and it didn't really affect me and um it just wasn't an issue the way it became you know so it was only then I think possibly you know if if I'm being completely honest uh the moment where I realized that something was up was when I did the IT Crowd episode because there was an episode where I had a trans character and interestingly you know I think we did a lot of things that would be considered you know great we we cast a a a CIS woman I would never use that word uh we cast a we cast a woman as the transwoman um and the character really loved loved uh him her and uh you know at the end he kind of um destroyed his own chance of Happiness by breaking up with uh with them because he couldn't get past that now at the time that felt that all felt right you know it all felt like a good story uh it felt sympathetic I did I did end it with a huge fist fight between them which which which didn't with me many fans I know that that was very very funny is that the same episode that had the internet yes the internet in the Box you know which is so funny yeah which is one of the most kind of um standout uh beloved episodes and channel 4 Bandit you know because of because of this uh story you do you know this no no tell me it's well it's very funny basic because I always think of myself you tell it gr it's just very funny well the the whole show is kind of about like like people who know a lot about computers and people who don't know a lot about computers and uh unfortunately the person who's the boss in the office is the one who doesn't know about computers so the the two two it guys managed to convince her that they actually own the internet and it is it's in a small black box in the office you know so and she's kind of carrying it around terrified that that that she'll drop it you know that type of thing and and it was great but at the same time you know I just needed a a parallel Side Story yeah yeah and so I the trans that was the trans thing trans story yeah and it's based on this uh incredible story I don't you won't know this person Sasha but there was a very famous sports presenter over here called Dez Liam he was a very he was a very manly man with a salt and pepper from mustach and uh he was he was quite the icon in the old days and apparently he uh went on a date with a trans woman and during the date the woman said oh listen just to tell you I'm trans and he apparently was eating and he went [Laughter] okay and he was such an unlikely person to to not care and just care yeah that we just always found it very funny so yeah it stuck with me and I used it for this storyline but um I guess if I could go back I might take out the fight because because that's what really annoyed people but at at the same time again I wouldn't it was funny it was slapstick and I wouldn't do anything that these people tell me to do because they they make it up as they go along they make up what's offensive they make up what's terrible what's wrong and did you get a lot of push back at the time what was that 2013 2012 something yeah it was very early and I just and I did not un not not the I didn't see why the push back was so vicious it was different to the push back that I was used to and I think what I done is I just kind of early on stepped into the developing ideology where people were deciding all these uh all these kind of uh what yeah and thought terminating cliches and arguments and I I I guess because of the push back and because every so often I'd get a message from saying from some kid you know I might like a piece of art by someone and they would they would reply don't want no likes no transphobes man something like that and I was like what what are you talking about so I was I was getting used to this am I right in thinking you were very big in the abortion debate in Ireland it was only brought in in what 2016 2018 or something and you were a big figure in that debate well as far as I remember and I think you saw yeah and I think you saw some trans input there yeah is that yeah we absolutely we went to a a abortion rights March and uh me and my wife would go back as often as we could um and we we we made this film for amnesty Ireland that we were very proud of and I really think had a huge effect on the uh on the debate uh but once we went back and there was a woman with a megathon and she was saying um we want uh the state to pay for abortions and everyone went it goes and operations for Trans people and we were like you know it was like where where did that come from you know and and that was like the first sign I had that trans rights activists were deliberately latching on to women's issues to try what's the word Force teeming and and I saw that happening and I thought this is weird and the other thing I noticed happening towards the end of the debate was that people started saying gler is a Turf people were in the same fight glenner is a Turf and I have what year was this Graham around do you remember when the referendum was uh I should know I look it up it's presumably either 2018 or 2016 I really should know this okay abortion referendum of Ireland let's all do it okay uh yes 2018 wow so late okay like abortion was only legal in Ireland in 2018 extraordinary wow yeah that that's right and and it it was my first um it was my the first uh experience I had of something I've become very used to since which is if you're if you have a certain kind of profile in in in in in a fight like this then people will try and find something to undermine you and uh that was the first time that happened glitter is a Turf so it was around then I think that I started thinking what does Turf mean and looking it up and looking at the arguments and finding out what people thought and and I think the very first thing that I shared that got me cancelled was an article by Heather brunskill Evans uh that seemed incredibly reasonable and was full of that thing that we all we all used to do but we realized it didn't matter uh which was uh of course trans people need to be this and that but at the same time you know uh something I gave up after a while but like like even even framed in that extremely thoughtful and compassionate way that was it for me that was it for me that was when the attacks began so when you started being called a turf at this at this protest or this rally had you already been sharing your views and sharing that Heather brunal Evans piece or was that just based on the IT Crowd episode that we were discussing a moment ago like where was this idea in people's minds coming from that you weree a Turf even back then uh yeah I should make make it clear it didn't happen at the rally that I was this was all happening online generally okay yeah yeah but like uh I think it was just to combine things people were suspicious about me because I you know I might make a tweet that goes hang on a sec what does this mean or what do what do you mean here and and then when I finally kind of thought okay I'm I'm jumping in with both feet uh and shared the Heather Brunk 11s uh thing that's when they realized oh okay he's he's all in we hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as we are we just wanted to take a quick moment and say thank you to all of our listeners your support is the fuel that capes this train running so please be sure to like And subscribe on YouTube or your favorite podcast platforms and do be sure to check out the conversations that are happening on YouTube in the comments section we think that we have some of the smartest most engaged viewers out there and we really appreciate all of the interactions also we produce additional bonus content every week for our listener community on patreon go to wiod.com and click on join our listener Community your financial support means a lot to us and for those of you who are in need of parenting support and resources we each have parent coaching membership groups so please do check those out you can find links to both of them at wider lens pod.com or in the show notes and of course you can buy our book when kids say their trans out now in the UK and coming out very soon in the US thank you so much now back to the show so this thing kind of became your thing I mean you are like as a non-irish person I had heard of The IT Crowd so like I knew your name from that but I wasn't very very familiar with you really until this became your thing and it's stuck with you and you've stuck with it and I wonder why and how and what has this done I mean I imagine you've amassed a number of really interesting great new friends like I always say the most intelligent thoughtful and amazing people I could have ever imagin working with I met through this work right so and I'm sure as a comedy writer you knew some amazing and brilliant people but like what has just becoming so deeply involved in this world done to you and for you and with you well you know like like I didn't want to get this involved I didn't want my life to be uh covering this issue but uh the stakes were so High um that uh I just couldn't I I was I I I the reason I was badgering people like John Ronson who was an old friend about this type of thing is because well you know for instance John Ronson wrote the book um so you think so you think you've been publicly shamed yeah which In fairness I think is a great book it's a very good book it's a really good analysis of public shaming on Twitter it really is it is so I thought he would be all over an an issue where women were being shamed at an almost Industrial Level that it was like a production line of women being cancelled and their their careers destroyed I thought he would think oh here's my next big my next big subject but what I didn't realize is that he had already completely fallen for the whole thing hookline and sinker and he just was not interested because I think he knew that if he had uh covered the subject properly he himself he also would have been uh canell do you do you think there was a point in the midst of all this because I presume you went to a a a a series of famous people and was there a point where you went oh my God I'm alone like where where are they cuz you knew these people very well yeah I every single person I met I thought they would be like what children are being what uh you know and and I thought everybody would rush to help especially since I knew so many people who call themselves feminists who call themselves journalists who call themselves you know satirists and none of them had any interest uh and as a result I remained kind of isolated and alone and uh I just looked extremely I was exposed uh and and they were able to to say I was a kind of monomaniac on the subject but all I've ever been trying to do is get other people to cover it and and and do their jobs you know but as we all know journalists just suddenly lost their pens when it came to this issue you know politicians uh outsourced their common sense to their young assistants um and and even worlds that you would think would be impermeable like therapy and and other areas were captured and so it was I I just I it did took me a while to realize but I was just on my own there was nothing I could do there was no I couldn't convince anybody the only person and I put this in the book because I do think it's so Melancholy is that I managed to convince and he he agreed like this immediately uh was James draus who was an actor who was in one of my first sitcoms and I said to him will you sign this letter asking Stonewall for a more grownup uh approach to this conversation a less toxic approach and he said yep absolutely immediately and he hasn't worked since he did that you know because of me it was my fault yeah so like you know he and and all it was was a letter asking Stonewall to to just can we calm the conversation down and they replied with no within the day and I think he's gay is he he is James is gay and also made it more relevant you know Stone like you know absolutely yeah but you know there was another guy who I contacted uh Mark Gus who who is a Another Gay actor he's one of the guys behind Sherlock Holmes and um uh or the recent incarnation of charlot Holmes well I think it's recent it's probably about 15 years ago now but like um and Doctor Who and I said to him will you sign this letter and he went o I don't know and then I never heard I haven't heard from him since you know uh and his career is flying high and James hasn't worked you know would you have if you had had a crystal ball was there a better way to go at it I'm not saying this with my finger wagon I'm just just reflecting sure you know cuz cuz it's gone so badly not not through any fault of your own it's gone so badly for all of us I wonder you know I I know what you're saying I know exactly what you're saying I don't know maybe the first thing to do would have been to contact the Tavistock doctors who I was suddenly in touch with um you know and say to them but I you know what it's like everything that everyone does is they just try and destroy you you know well I'm interested I mean obviously I imagine you're following some of the unfolding events in the US with our kind of Comedy scene and somebody like Dave Chappelle For example who has made uh you know making jokes about something is very different than asking for a letter to be signed or a petition or you know it's a different realm right but in the US when comedians address the trans Topic in their set in their you know performance there's a lot of conflict about it there's controversy there's a lot of dust up but their careers don't get damaged by it I don't think they have but I I could be wrong but what do you think because you know you took this issue in a very serious Direction you didn't decide to just make a bunch of comedic jokes about it you were trying to fix a really serious problem with what's happening to women and children but what do you think about ICS who play with this from a cultural level and they don't really disappear or anything if anything I think at least in the world that we're in Dave Chappelle kind of became a hero despite some of his quite sexist jokes and like other things that people may have issue with so can you do you have any thoughts about that well yeah I mean if I had had H like I wasn't a standup comic I was just a comedy writer and unfortunately when you're a comedy writer you need uh uh to build an INF structure around you when you're making a show which involves cast and and crew and and you know all sorts of things so it wasn't like I could just go hey I want to do a comedy about this and you know and and and yeah I mean I mean I'd love to have been able to to do what Dave Chappelle did because uh I remember one of the very earliest things he said was something along the lines of um uh you know you can be whatever you want but but but how much participation do you I need to give bring to this again something like that and and it was like he got it he just knew it and there was that famous famous uh routine he did about all the gay people in the car with the Les yeah uh and uh that showed to me that he understood the issue he obviously had gay friends uh he understood the history of of gay relationships you know like the way lesbians and gay men don't get on it was all very it was all very funny very charming and then he would you know in that same routine he talked about queer uh people who call themselves queer you know which was the yeah and again B bang on bang on just a kind of non-committal pansexual kind of uh uh uh omnisexuality you know that didn't really have anything to do with homosexuality or or lesbianism you know so so yeah I'd love to have been in the position where I could make people laugh about the issue but I just got all the Avenues closed off to me you know and like at one point I thought of a funny idea I thought well I'll do everything I'll do what all these men are doing for real I will pretend to be a woman and I'll get on uh a lesbian dating app because all these men were doing it and invading these apps and women lesbians were complaining about it so I thought I'll do it and I'll show how how easily it'll be done M it can it can be so I tilted my head uh and I put she her in my bio and um uh joined her and again it was one of those occasions and I don't really know how I could have guarded against this or or change this but I was pointing at some something and everyone just looked at my finger you know there was a very funny thing so you know no one no one cared about the men doing it for real they just concentrated on me doing it to show that the men were doing it for real you know and so I got into I got Rec canell for that you know and I'm like I'm trying to say they're doing it for real they're doing this to lesbians you know I'm doing it to show it but they're doing it for real no one cared and so um yeah everything I every every time I Tred to approach it with humor or to kind of uh go back to my old Persona as a comedy guy it was always a disaster you tainted I mean the reputation now is going to kind of overshadow any interesting commentary you're trying to make you've been tainted sure yeah yeah but what can I do all I can do is keep fighting I'm not going to you know become a window cleaner I'm going to keep fighting and and and you know I kind of like hope that the stuff I'm putting on the substack is valuable enough that people can look past whatever problems they have with me you know but who knows we'd like to jump in here really quick and offer up a thank you to Jens spect one of our sponsors jpec is an international organization that offers a healthy approach to sex and gender Jens spect recently hosted the bigger picture conference in Denver Colorado there they introduced the gender framework a comprehensive non-medical means of dealing with distress about gender issues go to gp.org to learn more we'd also like to give a shout out to GAA Jen exploratory Therapy Association if you're looking for a therapist for yourself or your child check out the ghetto directory and if you're a clinician who is questioning the affirmation model and you're looking for resources and Community please consider joining ghetto today visit gendere exploratory tocom to learn more I wonder though I've often thought about where you were at and I wonder was there always a strong political undercurrent with you even that you got involved in the abortion I remember I wouldn't have known you when you got involved in the abortion thing and I remember at the time perceiving it as a oh that's funny your man from Father Ted into the abortion thing it felt random at the time if you follow me so there was presumably a very strong political character there in you that wasn't all just kind of funny comedy you you know what I mean that must have been there yeah I was always very I was very I genuinely believed in the abortion fight I thought that like you know I I was very heavily influenced uh by reading The Cider House Rules by John Irving when I was 16 17 and before then I had just thought abortion was the most terrible sin and it was no conceivable uh uh uh reason that one would uh allow it or have it happen and then I read read that book and it was so brilliantly argued that like you know the the the cliches we all know there's no such thing as uh there's there's only such a thing as a uh uh no such thing as no abortion there's there's only uh unsafe abortions is that it something like that so tired I can't remember yeah you know it's like it's like his argument in the book and it's personified by the main character who does not agree with abortions himself but because they're illegal at the time the book is set he feels he has to do them he has a moral duty to do them um you know uh that that's that was I found that very powerful and uh you know from that moment I just became an evangelist uh because I just thought it was such a backward thing for Ireland not to have them um and then you know when I was with my wife uh we we our first uh our first child uh had a a condition called a crania which meant they she would have been he or she would have been born without a fully form school and would have lived only for a few moments and died and the the idea of of of putting my wife or or a child through that was so horrific that you know it it it was both you know a terrible story but also an opportunity in the sense that we could help show people that uh it's not a decision that people enter into likely and it's sometimes an incredibly necessary and you know important part of life so uh so yeah it was that simple really it was just like uh and you know I I didn't like I I I've I guess it's I guess one flaw I have which has been pointed out many times is that I have a bit of a white knight complex and um I don't like women seeing women bullied I find it infuriating because uh I was bullied and uh I don't like seeing it happen to to women especially online because when the discourse is so um pointed and sharp and and and and hostile it makes it hard I think for a lot of women to to enter into it um uh because that's you know that that suits a certain type of man better than it suits a lot of women you know so I wanted to to feel like the internet was a safe place for women to speak and um it wasn't it just was it was just kind of over and over again it was proving to be an incredibly hostile place like the previous time I I I got on my my white and started trotting around the The Paddock was um was when was during a thing that happened called gamergate oh yeah which which seemed to be seemed to me from my uh uh uh perspective at that time it seemed to me an attempt to get women to to bully women off the internet um subsequently I found out it was a lot more complicated than that I only really had half the story and I think a lot of the people I was fighting were almost like canaries in the coal mine that were pointing out what we're fighting against now uh a certain kind of censoriousness uh a pearl clutching uh uh kind of attitude towards computer games or or culture um uh this kind of forced uh PC correctness over everything I think some of the gamergate fight was about getting women offline in fact swatting became big during gamergate I don't know if you know swatting but it's when they phone in a fake um uh uh armed uh they try and get an armed Response Unit to come to your house by phoning in a fake call so they'll say oh this a guy's got a gun can you come and I was hearing all these stories about women opening their doors to swat teams oh my go gosh yeah and apparently the SWAT teams the their first um uh priority is to kill the pet in the house because the pet is a yeah because the pet is a kind of uh chaotic element that they they can't have going so these women with there were some these terrible stories happening and people have been killed by swatting you know so I just thought oh my God you know it's hard enough to be a woman online without thinking a SWAT team is going to turn up at your house you know um so I was fighting against it but then as time went on I realized that there was another thing going on which was as I say it was a kind of a it was the first time these authoritarian uh very woke voices were starting to push other people about you know uh and I didn't realize that I I only had half the story I ended up gamergate kind of ended and I thought I'd done very well you know I thought I'd been a a real Champion you know but I now you know later I kind of realized actually I think I might have you know um I might have not seen the wood for the trees there you know I want to just share something this is a bit of a left field but I I'm interested in the way television writing has talked about or addressed the gender thing and I remember a particular moment I was watching this show um called oh gosh it's a show about it's a it's like an animated show for adults about puberty I can't remember the name of it now big mou Big M big mouth I loved that show I was a huge fan of that show and then one episode they took a character do you remember this Graham like have seen the episode that I'm talking about I only know of the show I've never watched it it didn't look to me like I would enjoy it okay well I thought it was fantastic but then maybe three or four seasons in it's about high schoolers and going through puberty and they have the personified monsters representing female puberty and male puberty so this very sexualized woman monster and this male monster who you know causes the boys to masturbate into pillows and weird things like that I mean it was clever but there was one episode where there was a character who was suddenly identified as trans though the character was clearly like a feminine boy previously and there was a pamphlet a personified pamphlet about puberty blockers not tongue and cheek not satire just a literal almost an advertisement for puberty blockers and I was sitting there on the couch my fiance is watching me like steam coming out of my ears I could not believe what they had done and I from that moment on I couldn't even stomach the show and I thought about this for weeks I was thinking about writing into the the writers of the show I I didn't end up doing anything with it because it upset me so much yeah but what has it been like as a television writer a comedy writer watching the way certain narratives are just superimposed onto characters or onto plots onto narratives in a way that's so superficial and so not even human it doesn't even attract you to the story anymore like what have you noticed as someone with like this is your field well uh it's an interesting thing but apparently the lines at Disneyland are are currently very short uh if you want to get on a ride you don't really have much of a weight you used to but now you don't because uh people are kind of uh staying away and they are kind of registering their disapproval of what Disney has been up to the last few years uh in terms of uh kind of force diversity and a wokeism that that that has really kind of infiltrated all their uh uh all their work especially for kids and and and in franchises like Star Wars and stuff like this um and I think that the the the the reason why it's so um unsuccessful uh and it's turning people off to such a such an extent is because you know a a story like Snow White has survived for as long as it has because it's about certain fundamental things yeah that that human beings love you know and when you um start saying oh no we're going to have the prince is a is a abusive white male and stuff like that it breaks that kind of um I don't know that kind of um uh like I I one of the things I tried to get across in the book I'm not sure if I I did it brilliantly but like I think within all of us there's a kind of a and I think Yung talked about this Stella you'd know better than me or you both would know better than me but like there's a kind of a sea of shared stories that we all have within us um and uh it's a very precious thing I love it I I love that idea and I love the fact that when I tell a story I'm almost just kind of connecting with other people who who have the same understanding of what stories should be and what what makes them interesting and stuff and and uh I think this these contracts are being broken between us and the audience and between us and our past like like when you when you when you change the fund a meaning of a word as fundamental as woman then you're you're you're you're doing a very kind of a a a rough break with everything that has come before you know and I think those moments are are marked out in history by things like you know other times when there's been a kind of year zero approach to to life you know cim rou um you know communist regimes whatever it happens to be no that's all old stuff no no we're going into the future this is the new us you know and I think it just breaks a contract with with with ourselves you know so uh so yeah I think woke woke ISM I I have a I have a feeling I'm I'm actually bizarrely slightly optimistic about it because as I say once Disney shareholders realize we need to get those lines back up again I think that all this stuff will be reversed and uh you know the equivalent of like the film that of ended the the the haze commission censorship regime in America was Bonnie and Clyde it came out and blew people away because the violence was so violent and the sex was so uh raw in it um and suddenly everyone just kind of realized oh yeah this is what we want adult stories for adults you know stuff stuff that where we can see ourselves on screen not things where you have to put one foot on the bed or one foot on the floor if you're sitting beside a woman on a bed which was one of the hay rules you know yeah what what are you referring to sorry what rules sorry the I think it was called the haze commission but the haze rules were the ones before like it led right up to uh the film Bonnie and Clyde in 1968 I think and it was basically a series a set of rules that meant that all the films from around that period just before they didn't really reflect what human beings were like so you would for instance if you were the you remember movies where there's two separate beds like two single beds yeah yeah yeah those are all those rules and uh you know it it meant that there's a period of History where writers had to kind of write around those strictures and everything was double on Tas and uh like you might remember famously balla bogar uh with with them talking about breaking a horse you know they're not really talking about breaking a horse you know it's things like that but then that after that period uh but like the vast majority of films were kind of neutered by these rules and were Bland and boring and it was D day and all this sort of stuff so suddenly everyone remembered why they like stories and why they like tragedies and why they like violence and and and strong emotions and uh it led to in the 70s just the greatest decade of films you know wow I didn't know any of that but I do know Bonnie and Clyde and what a film I can see why it blew everybody's mind it is violent it's really sexy but I can see that people said yeah more of this but on that point you were making Sasha I remember during lockdown uh my my little girl used to read the babysitter club and then they did a Netflix version I could see her horror kind of going why why are they sticking in a trans kit into this because she knew her books and she knew the story and it was bludgeoned in in a very and it wasn't from the books it wasn't they were Netflix were doing a television series about the butterfly or the babysitter club and they stuck that in AR well not arbitrarily but was very definitely put in and I I get the impression from you gra there's a few people in the world and I think you're one of them that when they come across dishonesty it's like you kind of lose your mind it's like that's a lie everybody stop everything that's a lie and you can't quite you can't kind of go forward it's like everybody see there's a lie here I think that's what happened my own little analysis of you is that's what happened to you you kind of kind of said oh no no everybody there's a lie happening how yeah it's like nothing can happen until we fix this it's like there's a very funny internet meme called uh like I think it's like a woman and she's going to bed and her husband is at the computer and um and uh she's saying are you coming to bed and he's going no something on the Internet is wrong I think that was it yeah yeah somebody said something wrong on the internet yeah and I used to you know I I I but then this happened and it was almost like the wrongness escaped the internet and it went into the worlds of medicine and and uh Academia and all these other things and and that's when I thought oh my God it's it's it's bigger than just something written in on on a blog post somewhere it's actually in fting the world you know and and it's certainly got a a huge hold on Mo many people for whom they they get into the subject that become very very obsessed there is some thing about kind of gender Obsession that happens to many of us I wonder where do you see yourself in five years or you know you know where where do you think it's going now you not gender forget about gender no sure no no no don't don't get me wrong I mean I I I was interviewed today by RTE and and and they asked a similar question and I said I'm hoping that journalists will start to do their jobs and cover this properly so I can write some comedy you know I mean look if I would not have been so obsessed with this if I thought someone else was taking care of it but like you know there seems to be this Mass monkey What's That Monkey See No Evil thing going on with so many people that I thought okay well I guess it has to be [ __ ] me then you know like me just to do certain things I could do I knew I could uh because I had so many followers I could I could get lots of um people blowing the whistle on things I could you know uh offer them anonymity to tell their stories you know I was just talking today St I I don't know if you remember but I was once in contact with a therapist who said to me that um kids would come into her in tears because because they had been told that JK Rowling wanted to kill them you know oh God yeah that wanted them dead you know wanted them to commit suicide and she said this therapist said to me um I can't tell them otherwise because they might report report me to my accreditation body oh you know God yeah and so I was hearing stories like that I was hearing I've met I know two women in Scotland who are self-excluding from Rape Crisis Services because of culture up there uh I met a Keith lovely man uh on Twitter whose daughter is you know breaks my heart even to think about it just disappearing before his eyes because she's taking testosterone you know and um I I couldn't forget these people I couldn't like um I couldn't ignore what what was happening to them and uh you know and I still don't see how any anyone could I don't see how anyone could ignore these people and these stories you know I wonder will you go back to writing comedy or might You've Been Changed by this extraordinary thing you've been through I wonder you might go a different direction my problem is comedy writers do best when they're where they're just commenting and and they're not really part of society they are uh floating somewhere around it sniggering at the back of the class you know unfortunately now I'm like Central to to this to the story in a way that I never you know wanted to be um I've always just been fighting for my reputation and trying to uh counteract a a a a picture of me that's been painted out of my most impatient or angriest moments you know um but you know the more I was in it the more isolated I was the more I tried to do it the worst things got you know and I don't know in the end I just figure I don't think anyone could have done I don't think there was anything I could have done differently and unfortunately yes it's led me to um a place where I'm in this very weird position in life certainly not the position you would normally associate associate with a comedy writer but I will say this uh the standup goes it's a good character for a standup I I I I use my own um uh reputation to great effect with the standup sometimes and what do you mean well I have a routine for instance about traveling home on the day of Pride so you do you do do standup comedy a little B oh I only recently got into it because it's the only place I could do comedy yeah okay keep going so I I do this occasional act uh at a place called backyard the backyard comedy club which is the only place where I could do it and uh I I just decided I'm not going to try and become a standup comedian because I think that I'm 55 now I think I'm too old to do that really so I thought what I would do is just try and use my my position to uh to kind of uh just be myself on stage and it's been going quite well you know but one of the routines I had was uh I said that and this was a true story that I was once out in town and uh when I was in town it was only when I got into town that I realized it was Pride day you know and I said uh I have this routine where I go uh it's a bit like for me traveling around on Pride day it's like being a a Jew in occupied France uh and uh I have this routine where someone someone meets me and goes um Sil you at Pride today and I go oh uh no no no I wasn't oh do you do you not like pride and the punch line is the punch line is he tries to catch me out by saying um if you shall sing the song I shall begin and you shall finish it and I Go the song and he goes yes you know the song we all Now sing in schools uh when the parents are not informed uh I'll go first uh and he goes uh lgbtq so you know and and what's great is um you know I have a lot of gay fans and and friends who have made through this and they love that stuff you know uh and uh yeah it's it's it's it's nice getting hearing laughter and knowing I can still do it you know so that's that's uh I remember going I remember you once said it was I thought it was a sad and lovely story you um went to visit Magdalene Burns and uh you rang me afterwards and she was dying I think she died the next day and you said uh you went into her and you can tell the story what you said but anyway what you said to me later which I thought was lovely you said well I made her laugh and I thought job done and I thought isn't that nice you know what I mean what you did I know what you did do you remember no I don't I do I remember you tell me so she was dying and you went into I shouldn't laugh but it it was kind of bitter sweet but you went into her her bed and you started saying well you know it's all so difficult and and she she presumed it was about her and you went no I'm talking about me and she started laughing and then you thought to yourself you set it up and uh you thought lovely job done and I just thought it's it's such a a lovely gift to be a comedy writer to think I I'm going in to make them laugh properly laugh I I to be able to do that in life it's just a lovely generous thing that that was your mission I'm going to go in and I'm going to make her laugh and that's all I can do and I'll do it and you did I I don't I remember just thinking forgot about that I remember thinking it was lovely it was a lovely story and I loved the idea of somebody who's dying genuinely laughing like bursting out laughing yeah me too you Magdalene Burns for for our a lot of our audience will not know who she is she was a a lesbian YouTuber no don't be sorry I mean it's great it's great because this is such she was such an important figure she was a YouTuber back in the early days like 2015 and 16 and she would just make these very dry cutting kind of sarcastic videos pointing out the absolute lunacy of a lot of this trans stuff and Men claiming to be lesbians and you know this really famous Alex Drummond I think with the beard calling himself a woman and saying he was queering Womanhood cuz he fixed cars and she would just straight face just kind of poke fun at these people and she just had an amazing way of cutting her videos and I think a lot of like current YouTubers who I like won't name like kind of imitated her style she was brilliant and she sadly she died of what a brain tumor something really she was so young around 35 35 years old I remember I saw we were doing that film in 2018 and we were at that Bristol event and she um I remember the the channel 4 people were doing all the footage and she was kind of pushing them out of the way to get her own footage and I remember at the time thinking Jesus Christ what is she doing and I remember at the time thinking it was irritating because I was like get let them have the good footage a year later when I saw us getting cut to ribbons and all that footage getting edited edited edited I remember thinking back thinking she was dead right she was say get the hell out of the way I'm getting my own footage I'm not relying on your footage so I you know she was very forward thinking you know and was yeah you know and and she was also I'll tell you what she did which which was um uh which I think is why I found her so compelling was she she showed she showed you you could laugh at this stuff yes you know she wasn't like respectful at all what did she say the minds are so open their brains have fallen out she said about St your minds are so open your brains have fallen out yeah and and she was also you know and also you know I I I find her battle that she had so incredibly moving because like she was I remember once she said to me she TK me for saying something I can't remember what it was it was doing something something brilliantly Noble as I always do and uh and she said um and she said thank you no one no one uh listens to lesbians you know and it was such a simple thing and and and I subsequently found out how true that you know no one was listening to them no one was everyone was ignoring the fact that their spaces were being invaded that they don't have dating apps anymore you know I it was around then I started realizing holy [ __ ] there's no lesbian bars in California like in California there's no lesbian bars so it was things like that that made me realize how like she especially the the kind of the grinding heel of gender ideology was really grinding down into her and she was waging a very lonely she was so impressive in so many ways you know she she she should have had a she was uh asked to work at Google and she turned it down you know she's a smart smart she was very smart I mean you could tell she was really smart you know earlier gram you mentioned that the way a comedy writer really shines is by kind of being on the outside of a situation making observations kind of making jokes about it and of course as we've been talking about you're in the center of this gender thing so you could hardly be classified as on the side what are you on the side of that you find interesting that like if you were able to get out of this gender thing and one day you're writing comedy again like what are the funny cultural things that you're noticing now with a bit of oh man well I don't know I to be honest with I wish I could be a little cheerier but like I'm sure you feel the same way that the recent recent events have been so yeah uh you know I I I'll tell you what I am noticing and I do think that there there's a funny a funny thing in here but maybe not quite yet but in a while for me the the story of the last 10 years has been the story of humanity with no one at the wheel you know we we don't really like we've had Biden who doesn't know what's going on Trump who was in a world of his own over here we have a series of kind of middle managers taking over with very little difference between the parties um there's you know the fact that like we now have a situation tomorrow in in London where there the people are going to be trying to observe the uh Remembrance Day while at the same time there's going to be a massive demonstration for pal uh uh Palestine that's going God knows what what things are going to be like at the end of this weekend you know um and it's all because everybody just kind of um uh absolved themselves of any responsibility for anything you know like richy Richie sunak for instance richy richy sunak I'm tired so I'm I'm saying it wrong but he he he could easily by now have said no sorry and explained it for the for the rest of the country uh conversion therapy for gay people yeah that's a that's that that's a problem but conversion therapy for for for Trans people is is meaningless because it just means it just means uh watchful waiting and it means uh a holistic approach to a very you know uh complicated problem uh he could have done that at any time but none of them do because no they've all got this attitude of it's just not really quite my problem yeah you know and there's a kind of incurious aspect uh to people who should know better journalists abdicated their responsibilities uh uh uh politicians did but to answer Sasha's question yours C say nah there's nothing else to my life but is there is there a kind is there something the way you went there is it politics is is is that kind of you know no you said nobody's at the wheel do you follow I know but I don't want to drive the car either you know I want to write comedy you know it's like it's like all like you are you are you'd be writing about the driverless car which is a metaphor for the whole planet is what you're kind of saying the driverless car is here so this is actually a perfect metaphor absolutely but then again what's difficult is writing a comedy about the driverless car when you're in the back seat of the driverless car and that's how I feel at the moment I feel that the world is too chaotic and too frightening to really be able to settle down and go well let's take a sideways look at it all you know it's it's it's it's too it's too Feb is that how you PRC that it's too febrile an atmosphere it's too and also you know I can't get anything on camera I can't get anything on screen because I'm considered um evil you know so um I just have to I think unfortunately the the the the canoe I'm rowing is the only one I have at the moment you know well this is your going to be your big break because you are on gender a wider lens right now so get ready gr the fame is coming now I'll just I'll turn close the computer and just stare at my phone um we're just up towards the end can I ask one question uh that's kind of itching at me you know earlier on you said you were bullied and you then said and I particularly don't like women being bullied why what what is the big thing about women this white KN thing it it's it does feel very extraordinary well Debbie Hayton uh who is uh my friend despite everybody telling me I shouldn't be friends with Debbie um Debbie Hayton put it back a transwoman just for yes a UK trans who is also GC although his uh his uh assistance is not always appreciated by people which is understandable because there's been so many uh uh uh terrible kind of overstepping of marks in this that people don't don't trust Debbie even though Debb's been consistently uh on the GC side um uh even that even that term GC I would say I don't know how you think about it Graham But like after a lot of events from the last few days we're just I would say GC is no longer something that I really consider myself a part of but sorry to interrupt there I just want to make sure to say something because a lot of fresh stuff is on my mind I can only contribute a bitter laugh I keep well all I'll all I'll say is that the people who I've collected throughout all this I think Stella you're the same as me are people who are individual and don't you know they they they they're stubborn and they are um uh they think about the nuance and they you know they they try and see the humanity and everyone um these are all good qualities but I understand why why some people feel they have to be put to one side to fight back against a terrible encroachment on their rights you know so I think Debbie understands that as well and Debbie sometimes quite you were going to say something that Debbie haon said you lined it all up yeah Debbie said Debbie once said they're the bullies she he he was talking about trans rights activists and Debbie understands why I use male pronouns we've spoken about this but he was talking about trans rights activists and he said they're the bullies even the other bullies hated at school the bullies who bully girls you know and and that's what it is for me it's like it's too easy to bully girls you know physically men can bully them by just standing over them you know uh uh they're strong men are stronger men are men are you know more aggressive testosterone gives men what you might call a mobster's edge in life you know um but like uh uh and and also I think online and when they when people are speaking voices are quieter a lot of women don't feel confident enough to to um uh to be forthright in certain ways and I think it's there was I don't want to sound like an [ __ ] but I just think it's a responsibility for those of us who who whose voices do carry and and you know I have a temper and um uh I have to be careful of that and stuff like that but I I think it's important for us to make it safe for every voice to be heard even if they're very quiet voices you know and some may see that as paternalistic or but but all I see it as is um an attempt to try and make it a a kind of a civilized space for everybody you know I mean that might sound weird coming from me but as I say sometimes my anger gets the better of me because you know I just get insulted 100 times a day as a as a bigot and you know whatever so I don't know I just think uh it's a it's a good thing to be um I've always been my dad always taught me hold the door open for women you know clean up the dishes whatever it happens to be let them have a lie in on Saturday you know that was there were all these things that he just did instinctively and I think they're good practice for men you know so yeah I took it online because it was like online where I was spending most of my time well I'm glad you did I I I I try to look at people's intentions I mean this came up actually a lot at gen spect right Stella like the intentions matter and I think your intentions are really positive and I'm grateful that you do whatever it is that you do even if some people find it paternalistic I'm really glad that you do what you do oh thank you I'm proud to call you a friend I really am oh vice versa very much so very much so I mean you know really in the end my God we've been on the right side and we've we've we've met some incredible people you know so so in a way it's been tough but I wouldn't I wouldn't change it you know well we'll let the main audience go here we are going to keep you on though because we have a special question that we ask all our guests which is part of our dinner party conversations and what we're trying to ascertain is like how do we aside from our podcasts and our YouTube channels and our writing how do we talk about this in real life in a way that's effective so before we jump over there of course we're going to link your new book in the notes which we hope everyone will read um you have of course a YouTube channel and a show that you do with Arty Morty you guys are still doing that show right and Helen St yeah so we'll link that anywhere else that you'd like our audience to go to suback please yeah like the substack is basically my like if the book does well that would be one thing but the substack is my regular income so if people yeah that would be the book is phenomenal and you're sub the book is a really lovely book it's very generous book it gives an awful lot of you know insight into writing and the craft of it and you know the the kind of the it's a very it's a very just a lovely book to read it's really I really really would recommend people getting it I just think it's a lovely read and it gives sides to you that I know but I think other people don't know from Twitter yeah yeah very probably does thank you Graham thank you thank you thanks for joining us this week on gender a wider lens listener support means a lot to us if you enjoy the show please like And subscribe on iTunes and leave a review for more information visit wider lens pod.com there you'll learn about joining our listener Community how to contribute to our show and where to find us on social media our discussions are for educational purposes and are not intended as substitute for mental health [Music] services

Channel: Gender: A Wider Lens

Views: 13,317

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Id: uJHyJ15mJ-A

Length: 71min 7sec (4267 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 01 2023