Ep. 120 | All Things Rimfire and Long Range .22’s!

everybody loves rimfires and almost everybody out there owns a rimfire rifle of some sort so we had ryanmonk Aherne and a new guest Seth toy join us on this one to talk all about the history of rimfire cartridges the 22lr and RL 22 precision rimfire competitions and also a new optic of ours that happens to be pretty much perfect for those kinds of competitions - so check it out and let us know what you think [Music] all right everybody welcome we've got a good crew here around the table mark is to my left welcome back mark we did a couple of podcasts there for a bit without you I know has missing you guys it's good to have you here not sure I think people are gonna be listening to this around late April or so so well hope the world is in good shape at that point in time but right now we were able to bring together a really good group so across the table from us is mr. Ryan Buckner we're gonna be talking about some cartridge stuff and we know a lot of you like hearing Ryan's thoughts on cartridge things and for the first time to this podcast Seth toy across the table here I am happy to be here welcome longtime listener first-time participant yes excellent well and you are gonna discuss some things that are very cool and related to 22lr we're gonna we're gonna kind of do this in segments if you will and and kick it off going into a little bit of the history almost like our own 10-minute talk on just the 22lr wait would you say mark and I were discussing this a little bit earlier Ryan would you say 22lr is actually America's cartridge yeah or so maybe than the 30.6 or the 30-40 Craig or whatever else you got up your sleeve 308 well rim Fire's existed kind of there's almost like a convergent evolution situation with metallic cartridges because there were rim fires at various points in the world at a given time now the 22lr yeah I would say probably America's cartridge because who hasn't shot one that shot a gun it's everywhere it's maybe if you haven't even shot a gun before you just don't remember you actually have shot a twenty well let's do a quick exercise here the first you know cartridge that you fired Jim go nine mil sorry are you serious yeah sorry it was my brother's beretta fair enough he was like hey this is what I carry and then it was just kind of like cool and I shot it and then I think I went to it 22 right after that fair enough fair enough well let you know let's will continue the exercise I really Ryan rimfire speaking of 22 long-rifle is actually an evolution of the rimfire rounds it was not the first 22 rimfire there were others and then it stretched out and stretched out and it's not even the last 22 rimfire but the first one you shot oh yeah I'm sorry no I got a little weird there I know I was like how are you actually think the first cartridge I ever shot was a 45 ACP I myself in that camp as well 50% but I tell you what I my my confidence level was so high percent listen sorry about that mark yeah it was my grandfather he had a very different way of doing things and it was it was the 45 ACP you know you're not waiting in to the pool but it's just very knockdown power I was a 45 ACP and he had that mentality it was a hundred percent and from there it became the 22 long-rifle yeah yeah yeah the 22 of those so you were getting into the fact that it wasn't the first-ever rimfire no but it has become kind of the rimfire sometimes people just say when they just say rimfire they're just talking about the assumption is 22lr right right how did that come to be so interestingly you could look at it a couple different ways so there was gallery shooting which was kind of a very common pastime like you'd go to the fair and they've got the the pneumatic guns that you shoot the little bb's and you shoot the stars out of well long ago in a country far far away that was the early us gallery shooting was still very popular and also in Europe as well and rim fires were kind of the the arm of choice whether it was a 22 or 32 even some 45 and 44 caliber rimfire guns were considered these gallery guns and so it was a like a game yeah yep so it was a shooting game like over chickens pigs little targets and a shoot a particular you to shoot through a ring if you hit them if you hit the edge of the ring you didn't win if you went through the middle you did like darts yeah yeah yeah yeah and some of some of the most fantastic innovations and firearms started there like when we think of target sights that you would see on like a small bore rifle or even a large bore target rifle one of those olympian style right like the peep sight at the rear is similar similar set up started in in galleries and these were like very precise aiming devices with like micrometer adjustments on them and would have been very like crude firearms and in modern times but kind of laid the groundwork for some pretty interesting stuff different shooting techniques stances holds things like this we found their roots in gallery and small bore competitions you know in the 1800s and so rimfire is kind of an evolution of if we took a percussion cap that we would find on a muzzleloader put a small amount of powder in it aside from its priming compound and then a projectile on top of it squish it together what do you get a rimfire interest so from the kind of pond we crawled out of percussion ignition on like a side lock on a muzzle loader into this contained unit that was a rimfire and it started I think was the full Burt the first 22 like the 1840s yeah yeah so basically the cap and a ball a small diameter ball stuck on it and then it had a little flange that would would provide adequate head spacing so that it would just stay in place and not go too deep into the chamber you [ __ ] it back and hit it and pal that little ball on the board interesting yep and then that expanded into large caliber rimfire as there are you know 30 and 32 and 38 and 41 and 44 and I'll you know all the way up the line and then we got into center fire ignition so a lot of those rimfires faded into obscurity or were conferred Center fire guns for you know modern use because the rimfire case is like a one-time use thing for the most part yeah yes I was gonna ask maybe explain the difference between a rimfire case and a centerfire case yeah so in modern times with a rimfire case you've got a solid piece of brass that has no hole in the back a primer to ignite it the priming compound is actually in the rim of the case and so the hammer strikes it much like regular priming compound that we would find in a primary detonates under that pressure ignites the powder charge propels the projectile down the bar so that case is then completely discarded for all conventional purposes non reloadable right now if you are really enthusiastic you can unload yeah yep yep no you can't super-weird yep and you do that Seth I don't because I'm not a psychopath conduct would you reload this answer yes if you quit out the equipment is very miniaturized it's really cool stuff it's very miniaturized and extremely tedious and a lot of the folks that do it are grinding the heads off of matches for priming compound there's some chemistry involved the really adept guys have these special little spinning tables that you put the case on you I drop her in a like a half a milliliter of priming compound and then you spin the case at a very high rate of speed and it deposits in an even fashion the priming compound around the perimeter of the rim I'll be reloading for ants but it's a super expensive stuff like really really yeah and there's I mean can you imagine the number of people out there that do this it's like eight guys in fact you're better off converting your 22 long-rifle to a 22 long rifle centerfire which you can do now all way that's the thing absolutely they make specialized brass that is 22lr centerfire that's a better more economically feasible option right right because yeah I don't even it's very strong I was just gonna learn about shooting pop cans today but something about way more it's a weird world it is what's really neat about 22lr is it used to be black powder and then it adapted to smokeless it's a very different smokeless powder than we would see in like our you know conventional center fire rifle cartridges much faster burning like like think pistol powder only accelerated considerably oh really yeah oh so it's it's it's got a burn characteristic not dissimilar to black powder as far as you know black powder like we've talked about another bonus it's buh yeah big flash rimfire powders much like that you know for the most part it's not worth reloading at least I don't know that I tell anybody yeah if you're really looking to get into the weeds on a reloading setup go ahead and get yourself a rimfire reloader I don't know if I ever would ever have that much time to do that yeah but it's neat and you have a lot of time to do weird stuff yeah and that's like a whole different level you hunt you hunt for plants and damos and stuff you got to pop the rim out and misshape the rim to knock the firing pin mark out and then you have to inspect it to make sure that it didn't pierce the brass case and then you have to reform it so that it has a new rim yeah you gotta clean it and prime it and you got these microscopic powder dippers and so scoops we and and this is this is my apologies probably craziness qunit in my head we hardly got to let Seth introduce himself but as Seth introduces himself and explains why he's into all this crazy stuff maybe not too psychotic levels apparently what I'm curious about all the ammo selection now because the 22lr there's so much different kinds of ammo I mean they got everything from like 22lr that acts like a shotgun into 22 short you have here in front of us and stuff that suppresses to the point that you can't hear anything when it goes off aside from the little rim getting clipped and you know all that stuff anyway Seth what maybe as part of your introduction what made you like this so much for starters it was super accessible I mean every every gun shop or hardware store has 22s behind the counter or at least they did before where stuff got weird and so just the fact that you know you could spend I mean back then it was a dollar a box or less for 22s now getting into $3.00 box or whatever but it was a way to get a high volume of shooting done not a lot of money and there's no shortage of rifles out there that shoot 22 long-rifle really well but really affordably and so I was around a lot of like bullseye shooters in the area I came from and the people that introduced me to shooting and reloading at a young age started me on a 22 and as you said yeah and it's something they don't wear something that's stuck with me kind of ever since kind of whatever your level of participation is there's a 22 sport for you so whether you're gonna spend $9,000 on a custom bench arrest rifle so that you can shoot 25 perfect bull's-eyes in a row at a hundred yards with your 22 or if you want to shoot cans or shoot steel really fast I mean there's because it's been around since the you know 1870s people have had a lot of time to figure out that 22s are super fun yeah I think that's that's the funny thing too because you think about cartridges that have been around that long or that were around then and this little thing stuck around long enough to still be one of the most prolific cartridges or one of the most ubiquitous cartridges out there I mean that isn't anybody's safe Oh mark to your to your point to whether or not it was the first gun you shot look at anybody's safe there's a 22 there there is one and in the variety of firearms you know you look at its availability in pistols and rifles and you'll suss talking about the any number of model motivations it's almost like the cartridge that's been adopted by every firearm platform and in a variant of its application everybody wants to do a 22lr conversion kit on any gun they have absolutely it's hilarious yep everything from single action revolvers to belt-fed machine guns they make them in 22s it's actually I was talking to one of the other engineers that works with with me in a new private development Connor McDermott and I don't know if you know but he before he was here working on the AMG team developing optics he actually worked for a Winchester ammunition and so he's one of the guys who was on the team that developed 350 legend actually a pretty interesting interesting guy and we were talking about we were talking about 22 manufacturing methods on the way here and and he was saying that the machines there put out more 22s in an hour that I could shoot in a lifetime and I thought I accepted that as a personal challenge so I would really like to get a 22 and see if I can out outpaced the Winchester reloading machines so if anyone you know know somebody give me a shout that's something I want to do good yeah great great personal plug there I like it oh and also maybe a little bit of segue in the Seth you're talking about people that you work with here at vortex but what do you got going on here but yes please yeah so I'm fortunate enough to work with really talented team of engineers in private development here so I'm a mechanical engineer and I work on developing rifle scopes and mechanical components inside that so work closely with dr. Punja nears to make the sweet stuff that that we have here at vortex very neat very neat living the dream we're gonna talk later on about one of those sweet things that you guys make down in that department it's actually here on the table so if you're watching you may get a sneak peek but if you're listening you just got to keep listening 22:22 ammo is is kind of interesting like so there's so many different applications for it so one thing I know we talk about in a lot of our other cartridge podcasts you kind of mentioned what it's good for what's its primary use so I know people will use it for hunting in in you know especially small game stuff now they use it for plinking certainly and now they're using it for even long-range stuff they're using it for there's always like the inevitable discussion about self-defense and 22s and we should do it should you not whatever but it's a thing out there you got you got stories about 22s use and assassins and stuff like that I mean it's it's a cartridge that's done everything everything meaning let's talk training let's talk about one big one though hunting and everybody always is wanting to know what's the biggest thing you can go after with whatever mostly small games yeah with 22 yep and pretty much like you would say with anything I mean it so well you placed a bullet anywhere and they're good enough spun it can take down anything but but but its primary use what would you guys say squirrels rabbits rodents birds Partridge pheasants that's all good for that if your state allows it you know that kind of thing I've taken a coyote with a 22 long rifle no way yeah yep it actually was it worked a lot a lot better than then I think a lot of people might imagine it would work I was a good broadside shot at a moderate distance and and it behaved just like it would have if if I would have taken the animal with it 223 what projectile choice are you using when you're going on with 22 if I'm hunting regular small game it's kind of whatever shoots the best out of that rifle that particular coyote was taken with a 36 grain CCI mini mag up to the stinger no the Stingers didn't shoot that great but that was a mini mag it worked well but there's a good good report of a gallon I believe South Africa that had it and somebody should internet search this one and read up on the story I think it was South Africa had a nuisance elephant that was raiding garbage cans and a garden and she had fired at the elephant with her rifle and reportedly the bullet went between the ribs and actually struck the animal in its heart and after a period of time it tipped over dead some 22 yeah probably not a great choice but it apparently worked and that that's been that's been I guess well documented it's been talked about quite little-known elephant gun yeah absolutely amazing but I mean you're you're right right I think it's something too important to bring up well you're talking about that Kyle fairly you know I guess large and will to take down without 22 but you hit something in the soft spot you you know you poke a hole in its lungs it's probably gonna tip over night and I feel like for people who maybe are less familiar with shooting at times they have a misconception that the 22 is like the equivalent of like a Red Ryder BB gun they're like oh I mean if you get shot I mean they practically think you can go around like shooting each other with it right and I've heard people say that I'm like are you insane you know because you know you're talking like a big you know it's the same it's a big I ammeter is a two to three yeah Maya it's not in same size obviously you're shooting 55 grain verse you know whatever but even that's not like it's not that far off it's certainly more than dangerous it's deadly not to get into the story time but I will my father tells the story he and my my grandfather were out picking blackberries was August in his back in the days when black bears were essentially like a non-game species and they always had a pump 22 in in the truck with a with a for power scope on it and caught a black bear going across the clear-cut and my grandpa basically emptied the magazine of the pump 22 and black bear went in the bushes and he reloaded the gun and sent my dad after to go retrieve it and he was dead in the bushes really yeah that's awesome I believe well that's crazy so I mean it's it's uh is it gonna be your ideal choice so we recommend no am i yeah no yeah do not do not take that that tail is like a condoning or a recommendation but I think it just you know speaks to you you know it's on the elephant story Ryan kind of took the fun there's really nothing else you can say after the elephants yeah you know yeah they don't make things bigger than that they just don't for the long-range kind of stuff that people are getting into now first off what is long-range what's the effective range of a twenty two how do you fathom that it's weird that is the first time I heard about it I chuckled mmm-hmm cuz people were saying oh yeah you know long range blinking with the 22 or shooting out to a couple hundred yards I thought to myself what yeah just doesn't make any sense the same thing that I like to shoot soda cans at 30 yards with yep yep and I'm feeling like a superhero when I can thirty yards yeah so long Ranger the 22 I think is like anything over a hundred yards is in my opinion considered long range with modern optics and the modern rifles out there five hundred yards is not out of the question and and there are people that are pushing that threshold further and further and further everyday and in my experience five hundred is about my cutoff that's as far as I've brought them with any degree of repeatable accuracy you know outside of that there's so many variables that come into play that it really shows you your bad habits and then any kind of wind and I'm talking any kind of wind has you completely out of the out of the runnings for success what kind of bolts are you shooting when you're shooting at long-range cuz whenever I think of a 22 bullet I'm not thinking I'm exactly what looks like the most slippery thing and them no they're not they have bad profiles from the standpoint of like what we expect like you said a slippery bullet would look like yeah they're they're lead they're not jacketed they don't have any racy red tips or anything like that no they're like they've looked straight out of 18 ever now they do make jacketed versions so you know most cars there's one one new one out there yeah that is lathe turned but when you see a when you see a quote copper 22 bullet like those 36 green CCI mini mags okay that's what I was thinking they're not jacketed they're plated plated yeah or copper washed in which they're like put into a powdered copper matrix it's like tumbled until the copper deposits on them no I'm gonna go ahead and assume that that's not purely aesthetics and there is a I guess assume it's performing a similar function oh we're at 22 minutes yeah two degree yep dude agree that that adds a bit of my you'll call it like structural integrity to the bullet maybe keeping it from coming apart what about fouling you'll see it like if you if you shoot only led bullets in your bore and you were to look at your bore you'll see a kind of a gray deposit and if you shoot copper-jacketed or copper clad or plated whatever you want to call it so you'll see that deposit of copper all the way to the end of the muzzle so yeah much much the same what I found most interesting when I started shooting this long range 22 stuff was that high-velocity ammunition so over the sonic barrier he was not as good as ammunition under the sonic barrier accuracy was correct and it specifically extended distances so my particular rifle that I use for that that game is it shoots high velocity ammo very well like some of it anyway when we started shooting it at like 300 400 and 500 yards the high velocity stuff was completely and totally out of the running like it was it was glaringly obvious that that wasn't the answer cuz that cos is getting thrown off when it goes from supersonic subsonic so much like that little thing is affected so much that crossing that that barrier is is enough to completely destabilize the projectile because they're not even weighted the same way that a regular projectile is their weight like mass distribution is different than what you would see in like a long-range match well they don't even fly the same way mm-hmm and when when we switch to subsonic it was like flipping a light switch it certainly required more adjustment to get there but the stability was retained throughout the entirety of the range and when we were shooting at 400 yards which is really where my personal rifle shoots quite well if we had if we had an eight inch plate at 400 yards keeping ten rounds on that eight inch plate would I'm gonna just say it would be easy to do if we had good environmental x' with the subsonics with the SuperSonics it was a whole nother ballgame you might get a hit or two interest yeah that's that seems to be a common theme though like you know guys that are doing you know matched for I think even like the Olympic type stuff I mean if you're looking for supreme accuracy guys are actually shooting the subsonics yep absolutely it's just interesting to hear - for the long-range stuff - you'd like oh man don't you need enough gas to get it out there and there to a point and they don't even call it subsonic they call it standard velocity okay yeah so probably to avoid confusion or people think yeah yeah because there are some subsonic loads out there that are completely different there they're made for doing other things are made for you know shooting suppressed for like ultimate suppression and and then you get in some goofy weighted bullets like you go all the way up to a 60 grain lead bullet right and they've got some 29 grain stuff and you know that's a whole nother animal but you know a true subsonic 22 long-rifle that was just 60 grain yeah yeah it looks so if you were to take 22 short case and you were to put the 60 green projectile in it it would be the same length overall as the 22 long rifle case would be with a 40 green projectile in it and there's a to my knowledge only one manufacturer that makes it it's Agia ammunition or Aguila I'm actually not sure on the parentheses yeah and it's called the 60 green SSS load sniper subsonic you need my per yeah you need a one in eight twist a 1 in 1 1 & 8 so aka the assassin yeah yeah if you if you put a suppressor on it they are comically quiet interests even I've got a bunch of those and even without the suppressor yeah wait and there yeah yeah even without it they're pretty quiet they are they're good for pest control yeah urban environments yes 22 22lr mm-hmm okay that's what I thought so we'll check on that when we were talking about that rim early in the podcast and we were talking about how that rim controls that headspace so making sure the case is indexed properly in the in the barrel and in the cartridge and the chamber excuse me that rim is the same on a short as it is on a long rifle it's only the length of the case the powder charge and the bullet weight that's good thing is cute yeah and they make them shorter than this if you look at a 22 BB cap or 22 fo Burt they're even shorter yet and they look they they look comical they look like the baby Yoda virgins the point of those if you've got one of those old gallery guns that could be chambered in 22 BB or 22 for that's the only thing you can do with them very obscure yeah but the rims are the same the rim diameters are the same and the whole rear end of the case is the same so much like a 357 could shoot a 38 special yeah or a 38 short colt this is like the same thing on a scaled-down version so yeah you can shoot it in your 22 long-rifle assuming that your rifle will feed them yeah so some guns have a magazine issue that prevents them from feeding shorts you know well but certain guns like Remington had a rifle called a 572 field master which was a pump-action and you could fill it with like 2922 shorts ooh and it fed like a Singer sewing machine so it's pretty cool how about now we discussed the long range stuff a little bit and one of the things we were gonna get into and this one was discussing this new thing well at this point in time I wouldn't say it's new as though you know a lot of people haven't heard of it but some people may have not heard of it which is the competitive I think NRL 22 style shooting now if I recall correctly NRL isn't NRL has other kinds of competitions right it's a sort of governing body or something along those lines that has many different competitions under it and so there may be other 22lr competitions outside of NRL but that they were kind of like really like the first ones are the main ones to make it popular or something they're one of the kind of organizational bodies so you have your PRS community right that does the similar style matches they have different kinds of rules and different things they've agreed upon people get really upset about the use of tripods and in certain instances - but NRL is the National Rifle League they're an organization that has put together a kind of a rulebook and a rifle series so that you can shoot the series of matches and get ranked with other people shooting these matches all across the country yeah and they've they've grown there's huge regions everywhere to kind of get get involved with all this stuff but one of the things that they noticed or I assume that they noticed because they did it is that like long-range precision shooting is only so accessible like not everyone has a thousand-yard range out their back door yeah but a lot of people have hunter Garrett ranges out their back door maybe even a 200 yard range or there's a local club that has a hundred yard range available and so what they did is they kind of took the similar approach to the the NRL stuff the centerfire stuff and then they created NRL 22 which is kind of a much more accessible way for people to get introduced and involved in positional precision shooting yeah gotcha because with the 22 also when you're shooting out to a hundred yards even you start having - or you know even when you stretch it out a little bit to say two or three hundred yards you're really starting to have to do a lot of the stuff that the precision centerfire guys are doing at much greater distances just because you're shooting a slower smaller more affected by environmental stuff cartridge or projectile they're really cool like ballistic equivalent that people like to use when they describe NRL 22 is a 22 long rifle is going to drop and be affected by wind in a similar way at 100 yards that a 308 would be affected at 400 yards so it's like kind of scaling the whole operation down and then our horses you get two two three four or five hundred yards things get crazy it's the equivalent of you know there's people that are shooting two miles right now with centerfire stuff and by your odds say 22 no I'm sure they have inadvertently shot that far before yeah but I don't know that there's so many long-range precision shooting it at two miles with with a rimfire that's the next the next big wave ten years from now it's gonna be twenty two kids two miles you know you know how in hunter safety you know people say like hey you know obviously don't be careful where you're putting muzzle and you know the the may seem somewhat benign but you know that that well it can travel a long way noria stream distances right you know including 22s a buddy of mine that I went to school with was he took a 22 round to the buttocks never heard the shot has no idea where it came from really yes just something bit him where was he he literally got bit now I wasn't in college at the frat house just kind of hanging out he lived out he lived in the country he's from a small town lived out in the country so anyway I mean that's terrifying though be careful no you're all through I didn't think you knew what it was that first you lay down you think of somebody after me did I do something and what side of offense my on you appreciate that now and one of the cool things I've noticed with people shooting this is that this is kind of I think I had in in a podcast the one we were talking about choosing a rifle scope I a bit of a rant but I don't even know if that was gonna release before this one or after but anyway I wasn't upset I was just but the whole kind of like a grassroots kind of thing you know where you look at PRS and I'm not gonna poo who anybody in fear I think it's awesome I think you know some of these centerfire long-range competitions are really cool but those the guns are expensive the ammo can start to get expensive the range is you have to go tour the travel that's involved gets expensive the gear gets expensive and you have a lot of folks now getting in in manufacturers making products and gear that is it's like downsized versions of the bigger stuff and so Ruger's got the it's like the are PR but 22 and they're not the only ones there's tons of other people making bolt-action 22s that are precise enough or accurate enough to compete in these ways the ammo is cheaper the guns are cheaper you don't have to when you get a let's say you went out and you got that Ruger because it's the first one I can think of office up my head right now let's say you got that that gun that one you don't as much a mate and maybe this is just me if I get a 22lr that's basically set up to shoot long range for 22lr I don't feel the need to change it sure yeah because I don't feel they need to start swapping barrels putting bigger ones on fluting it putting in different you know this that and the other thing I just I'm like cool put on optic on it and go whereas with the centerfire stuff you get a little bit more there's always more you can eke out of it you know but maybe it's part of the the comical almost or just fun nature of a 22 it's like hey it's good enough so I'll use it well that could be changed now to this year when we were at shacho I think a really common theme was it's the year of the rimfire because they're doing stuff with 22s now in rifles and and I think it's all coming out of this NRL 22 sty shooting yeah that that perpetual arms race an upgrade race that was synonymous with only the centerfire guys is starting to bleed over in the rim fire drought in which do they have the same like classing structure there is hope because there is a class structure okay one of the things that enter all points you did to make it to keep it accessible yeah is they have a base class similar to like the pure okay it is price based does that expect racing where basically yeah look you just can't spend more money or else you're cheater and you get moved to open division okay yeah it's that's what it is so so there I mean there are people that are doing crazy stuff with 22s voodoo gun works is making some phenomenally accurate 22s that one of the new Bergara also that fit in Remington 700 Chasse ease and take Remington 700 triggers and they have a SES pattern magazines that fit in the same stuff so you can buy your MDT ACC chassis or your Manor stuff and you can do center fire studying I said was wrong yeah well but the hope is because of base division or break last because what they've done is they have they have a cap for the MSRP of the optic and the MSRP of the rifle if you add those two together and it's less than one thousand and fifty dollars then you're in base class and you compete against other people they're in base class so that well but you can make a hell the rig fur yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and especially to be competitive within that range the other thing that's nice is that the targets at least for the supplied stages monthly are are pretty generous so you could show up with grandpa's 1022 and you can show them and you can still be competitive in base class whereas yeah I mean it's it's a little unsettling when you show up and and you've you've got grandpa's rifle or you've got the rifle you got when you were a kid and and there's a guy who has built a PRS training rifle that's identical in every specification except cartridge to his other one that kind of you know Dorf you in price range at least you're not competing against that guy yeah I could see that being a little bit demoralized oh yeah we sat what I shoot USPSA and multi gun competition it was the same way yeah you know you you'd be outclassed if he showed up at a 3-gun competition if you're shooting a you know $500 Glock that you saved for where a gentleman's running a you know $3,000 pistol right you know something of that nature in those base classes do you see more bolt guns or like 10:22 style actions um I think I think it's kind of kind of all over the place I mean people have their their savage mark twos that they've had the CZs are a really popular baseline rifle and then the 1022 is of course but but yeah I mean I've seen some people that'll even bring like a tube-fed somato sure though yeah the Marlin whatever now NRL in their rule book does recommend like please bring a detachable box magazine cheers to fed magazines are really hard to keep safe yes you're sitting over there unloading 15 rounds into the hand of the guy next to you like please catch ya on you know clear command but yeah I mean it's it's really cool because it's bring whatever you have and you can play but then yeah if you're bit by the bug you can dial it up to 11 which is what a lot of people really like to be able to do right partner he thinks like that I like how I was explaining it part of me thinks oh yeah I'd be able to avoid bug you know 22 it's good enough it shoots while you do it but I could see how it would be yeah I think it'd be difficult to resist because it sounds fun it does sound fun and I'm sure that the parts too are less expensive than theirs centerfire cousins so then you're kind of thinking to yourself that's not as bad and then next thing you know Add to Cart Add to Cart yeah I'm pretty soon you've got a $4,000 bolt action 22 you're shooting a $23 box of 20 is that what this is $23 so though how many are in here 15 yeah so it still it still does represent a pretty noticeable cost savings over even 65 years wait yep but in terms of 22 long-rifle I guess spectacularly expensive so like the CCI standard velocity which is something I've shot more cases of than I care to admit when I know my wife might listen to this it's it's like $3 50 cents a box and it shoots really well some rifles really love it this rifle for example loves CCI standard velocity so at 350 a box a match is gonna be maybe one or two boxes so yeah you know you're not spending $80 on centerfire ammo to shoot an NRL match but then you can get into you know just trying to eke a little bit more out of your your ammo performance so this box I think was like six or seven dollars and that's what my rifle really likes right now and then you can go that's the SK standard plus okay yep so then you can kind of step it up to like a Lapua Center X which is like 10 or 11 dollars which is usually like a Pula 22lr yeah yeah so they that's awesome they actually own SK they're the same kind of thing and that yeah they're similar okay but yeah no no 338 it's it's all and both folks and then are all 22 people so you got the the center X which is like $11 box and that I mean I personally kind of draw the line there for like match ammo it's like I can almost maybe justify $10 a box so like go shoot a match and know that I am like eking the limit on my performance but then you go to crazy town or necessary town for some people yes at 20 plus dollars a box for the Ely 10x and like Lapua they have one up there but what are these doing differently than this CCI standard velocity well they're going the same speed which is insulting they're the same weight but I think it's about quality control and and tolerances so even if in the little box look you can't even pull them little box out of the big box and it's made out of polymer like paper how much these would shake and move in there versus how much those would move you know whether the box could be inadvertently crushed yep or how like the the protection of the ammunition in the boxes is a component in that cost and you know I suppose when you're shooting especially a discipline like IR 50 when I I think of like the Formula One of rimfire competition I think I are 50 like those guys and gals are they're not messing yes yeah like they bring they make they make hard-topped ammo containers for 22 long-rifle that are foam insert so you put your cartridges in there because they're that particular about how that bullet is protected from the time it leaves you know wherever they get it from to that from the tap I guess I don't know how yeah for the time they shoot it so yeah interesting there's a lot goals I can't reload for it right so you got to be able to control every variable that you can cradle to the umpteenth degree so like the the Voodoo that I mentioned earlier is a controlled round feed and so like the the thing that makes it particularly interesting is the magazine design and the way it like gently cobbles the cartridge and lifts it into position and torpedoes it into the chamber rather than letting it rattle around and shake its way in okay gotcha it does not touch anything and it just goes right in and it's you haven't deformed your bullet at all because you haven't jammed it off the side of a chamber wall or a feed ramp you haven't messed with anything and so you just get that optimum like yeah that is interesting I mean cuz up up and tell now I've been thinking of that accuracy as like separate things like oh I've got really accurate ammo and I've got a really accurate rifle or I've got a rifle that really likes that ammo but now it's like no it's how is that rifle feeding that ammo right how is the firing pin striking the yeah we got a rim thickness gauge we went that deep into it we discovered that if you took bulk 22 ammo like you go to the store and you see the brick 525 cartridges I want on my desk yeah exactly don't know why I have it there but it just we have a customer that frequents us and he was telling me that the key to success were much of the key to the successes in 22 long-rifle accuracies in the rim thickness we were talking about that headspace changing well if your rim is real proud or thick it's gonna headspace differently than if it's a thin rim okay and the firing pins gonna hit it at a different point and you're gonna get different ignitions and you might can't or yah the bullet in the chamber so you said get one of these rim thickness gauges and sort your 22 long rifle ammo by rim thickness and do do a random test versus a lot test with this and you'll see your particular rifle at a particular point in cleanliness is going to favor rim thickness and it kind of worked it was very strange so everything I said about people just picking up 22s and being just cool with it is entirely you depends I'm gathering is that the 22lr crowd is actually probably the most anal about I think there's a couple subsets though I think you've got your your regular folks that that are like hey this is fun and economical and inviting to all age groups and experience levels and then you've got the fun runners yeah the fun runners yeah you know who have figured out really what it takes to get that extra the people the serious fun hammers just because like we've talked about before those are the people that everybody else benefits from they do they push the limits they push the boundaries and make stuff super awesome for everybody else okay there are there are always those people who take take something fun and everybody else is kind of goofing around super cool and they get really serious about it I think that's how they have fun though that's everything though I mean that's that's absolutely I don't care cars fishing shooting 22s whatever I mean you're gonna have that and I think that's even though we're talking about that progression of like you start doing this with you know grandpa's 22 or the one that you had cool that was fun and then you're like what if I did that you know and I think that's like that's just human yeah that's the reason it's been around for 140 years or so is every generation has had their opportunity to take the 20 to learn on it figure out how fun it is challenge their buddies to an error appropriate competition for it and then dial it up to 11 and then the next generation gets fed that knowledge and it's not going lame you know the biathlon rifles all of the Olympic shooting rifles are not all of them there's air rifle and whatever but for the large part they're 22 long-rifle and so for people who are really trying to optimize Olympic level shooting performance you've got Olympic level RMD going into the ammunition for yeah for these sports and so you have that top level support and it goes the whole way to grassroots which is why it's it's hugely popular wait can it get any better than this can rifles get better than the one that's the table you're asking oh I don't know the rightful oh yeah I don't know you're talking about everybody keeps pushing the boundaries yourself like I mean we're talking about yeah controlled feeding super accurate rifles that are shooting $23.00 boxes of 22lr and they got you know crazy awesome optics on top which again we have to get to but we're gonna keep going well you look at just like anything even lay in turn bullets 22lr that's not a bad idea Jim patented yeah you just say it and then it's like technology says technology even with the centerfire step or whatever yet you got rangefinders ballistic calculators things that just weren't there before that he can take and apply to you know my game 22lr game whatever is the 22 Creedmoor rimfire as a centerfire okay anyway let's talk about the equipment here yeah do you have on the table in front of us what is this which one is this a cz what it's a cz 457 so it's the the new iteration of the the 452 the 455 and now we're on the 457 okay so cz it's a bolt action 22 feeds from the same column yeah please it bites though so be ok cool so it feeds from the same magazines that have been really popular for a long time but they fixed a couple of things in my opinion on that rifle that were like mild inconveniences that you had to put up with before now I think there's absolutely zero excuse so the first of those things is now the safety one little mag there it is now the safety goes the correct direction so it's pushed to fire for the long time it was you know toward you was was fire yes really they've got a really nice adjustable trigger in it now and then the trigger guard is is metal rather than was a polymer before or just stamped stamped yeah yeah do you think they changed that for functionality or because they got tired of fielding the call hey you put my safety on your heads I think there are enough 4-h instructors that were like hey we would run C's but everyone's gonna go home to their Remington 700 and the safety is gonna be backwards so if we're training these kids on 22s to go shoot a 730 out six for you know a deer camp they're gonna have their rifle on safe accidentally because they have their hundreds of rounds of practice on a safety as well or maybe worse yeah well have it on unsafe now yours you were talking about you were talking about putting a different stock on this gun for competition use it then but then you also mention how this gun is a popular one for base class yeah why would you want to put would you if you put a different stock on this you'd probably wind up going into open yeah so they want to go into open um I like open I mean I I dabble in a lot of different competitive shooting disciplines and hunting disciplines I like to think of myself as like a slow burn try to do it all slowly over time and kind of gradually get better rather than do one thing until it hurts and burn out and not like it anymore so so I have I have a nice PRS rifle and so I've been enjoying that sport and one of the things that we've been able to do is because we have a range here so we've been able to do a little friendly office competition on Wednesday evening so one of the competition's that we've been doing is like a precision rifle night here but it got really old really fast sending $50 of centerfire long range ammunition into a hundred yard trap yeah cuz like as fun as it was and shooting you know one and a half two and one way targets at 100 yards is no small feat off of you know different positions and barricades okay right but yeah it just got expensive and I think people are like man this hurts my wall a lot but we still want to hang out and do this and so I was like hey you know we can start doing enter all 22 and so we weren't we're gonna push that direction so then with this rifle I thought you know I'm gonna buy this and I'm gonna be super excited because it's gonna be perfect for NRL 22 I'm probably gonna put a nice optic on it because now that I work here especially in engineering I'd become an optic snob yes and so that's pretty much immediately gonna put me out of base class because I'm spending at least but but I wanted this to kind of be able to do both things cuz I also hunt small game as a part of that slow burn and so I thought well you know we'll do the wood stock you know cz 457 varmint so but I'm gonna throw a nice piece of glass on there so I can shoot in RL 22 with it I want to or I can you know shoot small game with it well before we got to internal 22 stuff up and running we had rabid squirrel season and I fell in love with this rifle in this configuration and now I don't want to take the stock off and so I was gonna get another I was gonna get another stock to switch over to NRL 22 I don't know I kind of want to leave this either to shoot internal 22 as it is letting lend it to somebody you know I have there's constantly new people coming to try stuff so you know here either I'll shoot this and you can take the other thing that's coming or or or whatever we'll figure it out but that's kind of why it's it's it's living in the configuration that it is mm-hmm but I've been shooting with it recently in NRL 22 environments I find it to be extremely capable even in this configuration which is really like a different stock or chassis we give you what like an adjustable cheap piece a little bit better a bipod mounting solution that's true I have quickly gone from accessible to yes but sound weird different meeting yeah speaking of the optic then will spare people the waiting game it may be but a top of this nice Woodstock Devon style rifle you've got kind of a more tactical looking yeah so that's part of what throws maybe somebody offer when they first give a quick glance at it you have the new strike eagle 5 to 25 by 56 on top of this bad boy I do which I already sweet new I have been really seriously enjoying it both in the this in the woods and in the field there have been some some squirrels that have disappeared because of this strike eagle I was gonna say man this looks like one hell of a squirrel here yeah no I don't play in the quick rundown on what this optic is all about for those listening and those watching you've been wondering what it is you've got 34 millimeter tube 5 to 25 by 56 you know an illuminated EBR 7c reticle yeah parallax adjustment down to 15 I'm sure we'll get into that being 22 podcast locking turrets yep integrated new Rev stop zero stop system which was pioneered by the Razer lht and it's a new low first focal plane and it's a new foray into the strike eagle line which was previously just a cup low-power variables the 1 to 6 and the 1 to 8 that are really popular probably I'd say prior like our most sold scopes that we have well and I guess the only thing I'd add to that Jim is we're talking about this rifle scope in the talk in the context of 22 long-rifle it is by no means yes because inevitably what you say if anybody asks you it's a great rimfire scope then you know you suggest one they say oh what can it not handle 308 so no that means it's people but people won't raise your gentoos I've seen it on yep and RL 22 rigs yep does that mean it's only rimfire I didn't know so anyways thank you for clearing the air on that it's a good thing to do the snobbery at work yes so and these are gonna retail for somewhere around 700 bucks every night I believe 7-9 okay yeah on the street I know why does that make why does this scope make its or why is this scope such a great in RL 22 let's go so for all the things you mentioned like in in the instance that you have to do like long-range precision shooting stuff the the Gentoo razors is like cream of the crop right now I mean you've got all of those features you mentioned but it's at a significantly higher price point and there's a couple of extra things in there but this really has everything you need or really could want to shoot precision shooting without the couple of extra things that that really justify right the the top-tier price point and so you've got locking turrets so you're not going to accidentally change your zero off of a barricade but they are also dialable turrets so if you're going to be compensating for your two mills at a hundred yards for your internal twenty to match you have the ability to dial or you have the ability to hold on the first focal plane reticle yeah the zoom ratio magnification range 5 to 25 is really close to four-and-a-half 27 but with that five excellent director system you you get the important range mag range to do all of the stuff that you would do for precision rifle shooting you've got adjustable parallax and and this adjustable parallax goes from 15 yards to infinity so for the center fire precision rifle competitor you might you do a lot of practice so you get better right and so one of the ways you practice is dry fire and so if you're in your house and you set up targets to dry fire you might have a 15-yard hallway or you might have something 15 yards taped to your bird feeder in the backyard and you can adjust your parallel there or you might shoot things off your bird feeder in your backyard she's awesome do you remember it had a very satisfying squirrel anti squirrel thing on the bottom of it that if he's not made a good sound that's awesome respect anyway but yeah so being able to get down to 15 yards gives you the ability to focus on on targets at that distance at higher magnifications but yeah so you can use that to dry fire or just shoot targets at 15 yards what are usually the closest targets in an NRL 22 match um probably 20 20 yards or so okay so um well yeah you're well within the range of this so that's nice especially with positional shooting where you may be yeah kind of in some compromised position where perfect position and then I guess on the other side of that like what's the longest the longest target and in like an NRL yeah so the NRL 22 organization sends out five stages every month so every NRL 22 Club I guess which is kind of a loosely defined word gets these stages and you run those stages you score those and then you submit those and then you get ranked with everyone else all of those stages are within 100 yards which keeps it super accessible because then yeah everyone who's got a hundred-yard range can run an NRL 22 match but they also provide a stage like template so that you can write your own stages that go further than that so you can have your own like Club match where you're shooting stuffed at 350 yards okay with the 20 which is pretty bananas but I mean you might be shooting stuff at 350 on whatever bonus stage and it just gives the club the flexibility to cater to or to their equipment and their their consumers - right so the cool thing about like like NRL is pretty rigid I mean there it's super competitive and you have people that are there to win and the same could be true for NRL 22 but I think the general air is a lot more friendly and welcoming like if you're the guy who's like I am here to crush everyone at this match yeah you're not gonna make a lot of friends in the NRL 22 match no just because it's more welcoming I think you can do they're more lenient on the rule set yeah you could have a 22 pistol stage you could have a run-and-gun NRL 22 stage yeah and it's all kind of allowed within the rules because they're they're the bonus stages that don't technically count for anyone in your club so you're able to kind of do what you want with your community and speaking of you know longer shots and whatnot with yeah 22 so that would require adjustment absolutely so that and that that was one thing that I thought was pretty neat about this scope having a 34 mil - yep it's got over a hundred minutes and I know 31 31 Mills 31 Mills of adjustment which is a lot it it's more than you probably need shooting 22 I mean that that's a ton that's that's getting up there in Razer territory I mean the Razer gent - I want to say is somewhere around there what's it what's it about the same about the same and then the Razer gen1 5 to 20 which was you know is still sort of the elevation adjustment range King that's 126 mils 125 125 MOA 36 mils so I mean it's it's very close to that and half the price of that scope yeah so what a super cool when you're talking about shooting it 300 yards yep with a 22 how much adjustment are you using they're like what would you have to dial up copious amount yes I can run some math here real quick yeah I don't know if the heart is the hardest part with the 22 long-rifle long range stuff is trying to calculate a b c because it's not right it's not often posted and the stuff that is posted is pretty all over the map it is it like even a g1 or g7 it's a g1 profile but most of them are like radar 0.08 to 0.1 0.1 to maybe yeah so it's we're just gonna set this at a point one g1 BC so bad translation bad I'm gonna set a muzzle velocity of 1080 we're gonna do a bullet diameter of 0.223 bullet weight of 40 greens zero distance of a hundred scope height of 1.9 what calculator using uh just a mobile based one it's called eye snipe okay well Ryan's doing this Jim sum up and I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a car reference in there for you sometimes you talk about like you could have like a really fast car or you could drive a slow car fast oh yeah you know what that is right rental car car Jim told me that joke and I loled multiple times a day because it's true almost an analogy there's more fun to drive a slow car fast and as drive fast car slow yeah and then you know you've got these 22s that know are you shooting 1,000 yards no but you're shooting 100 yards yeah three four five six you know yeah you're putting its - you're stretching it to its max and staying within reasonable limits of what most people can achieve at most ranges right you know I could storm it is it is I like that a lot and another thing - speaking of well Ryan's getting into the beautiful mind stuff over there regarding adjustment so this has the zero stop the would be zero system yep and it really is it's a zero stop it's unique its super easy to set it's just like one piece that you put in the turret yourself I mean it'd be stiff you know righty-tighty lefty-loosey you can set this yeah and it does take up right now a little bit of the adjustment range so if you get zeroed from your zero position you wouldn't necessarily have the full range of adjustment there but still you get 18 mils yeah which which is it's beyond usable for like 90% of 22 but also PRS stuff I've never had to dial 18 mils for anything no I guess that's I mean I shot a 6-5 Creedmoor at 1200 yards I think it was just I like 12.1 mils right and so anyway but just for reference for folks out there I mean if you're trying to shoot a bazillion yards with this thing it does take up a little bit of the well and I guess that's that's part of the reason why I was asking Ryan this question just kind of put things in perspective like oh that might limit my travel but really what does that mean right so how what do you what are you showing so I'm going to make a correction to the the data I put in here the CCI target 40-grain bullet has a posted BC of 0.149 so he's kicked it up yeah wears a lot of the other steps like point one point one one anyway so with a hundred yards zero and I went with the environmental today abort X and a five mile an hour and rainy as heck with a Chance of virus iteration I I set it for our elevation and and all that stuff at 200 yards with a 100 yard zero you will require 5.2 mils of adjustment my gosh that's what you need six so six five Crede you need that for 600 yards not just taken the 10 mil mark which is kind of the magic number with a lot of the 6'5 ammo comes into play it 280 yards you're not even a 300 yet no and that's what's required at a thousand at at 500 yards you require twenty six points seven five mils of adjustment okay but chances are if you're dialing that much you're probably paying attention to it yeah so so where it gets really wild is the wind so we talk about when you're holding a mil of wind like we shoot a lot at our thousand-yard range and you know if you've got a five mile an hour shift and a thousand at that range the way that the intersecting and differing degrees of ways a mil to a mil and a half is a pretty tall wind call for a lot of things you require 1 mil of wind hold with a 5 mile an hour shift at 210 yards at so it compounds very quickly right and so it shows you your mistakes in a very very condensed distance and it behaves much the same as it would if you were stretching your regular centerfire out too long and extra long range yeah now one thing actually we should note you can shoot with this scope out to 500 yards with the zero stop installed because your reticle yep in I'm on 12 X right now which at 500 yards you don't need more than 12 X to see the target well and reticle is perfectly visible and it goes down to 10 mils so you have an additional you know in theory if you add on the reticle there that you can hold over sure at 18 mils you could go to 28 mil for you even pull the zero stop out I am so fun fact you impact a 500-yard target at 655 feet per second with 38 foot-pounds of muzzle energy off 38 foot-pounds of projectile just enough to pierce the rump of marks through the blue-jean story he told yep wow what a story it is a heck of a lot of fun flight time bullet flight time that's another fun part of this one point eight five seconds okay so you you you pull the trigger quick enough you get multiple rounds downrange before impact and then they all go ding ding ding the time of flight was at what distance 500 years one point eight five seconds that's an eternity that is yep that's a lot of time for wind to impart and gravity to impart some I guess effect on that Jeremy Alex rattled off like twelve rounds yep fifteen rounds really interesting to like watch on video at Jerry that's your next quick shooting challenge challenge Jerry much like to see how many shots he can get with a 22 at 500 yards before the first one hits yes I like that I challenged Jerry because I couldn't do good person to challenge then uh yeah that's cool stuff yeah other thing to point out it is lighter than like our Gen 2 razor because there's not as much stuff going on in the in the turret okay it comes in just a hair over 30 ounces so especially if you are gonna make a dual purpose rifle out of it and run it through the woods you've got all of your big scope long-range features that you could want at 15 ounces lighter than the the gen 2 razors are and being illuminated to then when you back yeah five you can still see it in the timber and stuff like that worlds the other time I found the illumination to be really helpful I I have a four and a half 27 and I almost never use my illumination just because I haven't had a bunch of a need to but when I was shooting that like in RL 22 targets here our trap at our range dark gray black and if you're shooting a grey circle that was previously painted white until you spattered it with lead for three hours then it's really difficult to find the the target without the illuminated reticle and so just Boop bumped it on I got a red reticle super high contrast and I just counted no and for those environmental snow are you setting that reticle at its top end are you setting the reticle to stun or just a couple just couple I I don't know they're depending on the lighting conditions just like with the first focal plane like a razor 1 to 6 or low power variable as well as trying to say like our 1 to 6 or 1 to 10 if you set it to right for the room it lets you know by Bible young and being cut or red dot even but yeah and kind of obnoxious and so I wear glasses I had an astigmatism my glasses mostly sorted out but I found that by dialing the light down to where it was actually useful for the thing I'm trying to do is where it's optimal yeah I'm not a dial it up to eleven all the time with my illumination guy because that's not where it's appropriate so that's why we have a city that is I I have a question for Seth on topic but kind of divergent have you ever heard of twenty-two Calibri the like smallest cartridges how you spell caliber and Britain no so the I should say the super Calibri z-- not the color okay but that same company that makes this sixty green sniper subsonic they make a cartridge called the colibri and on the box it's kind of a rainbow color yeah mark scattering I own some of these as well and they are also great for urban asking so it's really special but they don't have any powder in the case okay so they've got a hopped-up priming system yep and I want to say it's a twenty nine green bullet at five hundred and ten feet per second yep so because I know my father will never listen to this podcast I don't think he knows what a podcast is I used to shoot twenty-two Calabrese in my basement I was just about to add I don't recommend shooting them indoors but I used to shoot them in my face and so I was wondering if at home yet you've you've talked your wife into allowing you to practice with super Calibri I bet you could fashion your own trap one of those snail style totally you can buy them they make enough for your basement yeah they make it in-home 22 long-rifle I think champion 100% i I can promise you I've never basement right eye on this I've not punched a hole and my father's drywall with it super Calibri round yellow pages book works really good too and they're spectacularly accurate yep so I yeah I have not done that but I have I guess I know what you're doing this weekend she's 510 it's not a lot no if I remember correctly question territory there yeah with a heavier projectile yeah and that's where that's where it gets its austere its snows that's cool they're neat and so the the super Calibri is being the full-length case will feed out of a lot of like you couldn't single feed a Ruger 10/22 whereas you really can't oh yeah yeah you really can't single feed a 22 short out of them unless you heavily modify your magazines or you buy the special magazines for them yeah but they're neat they're neat project I need neat round you should put that one on your radar you fun to see your testing 22 where it just shoots salt and flies the bug assault yeah but like better income yeah so they make the bird shot which is usually at number 10 or at number 12 right we got a fills me how what does that actually have an effective use yeah so in modern guns not as much as you'd think no I know I said I've seen that I just wonder it but there weren't imagine would even actually there's there's two styles to those there's the capsule and the crimp and I've actually found the crimp ones are letter name into yay I'm so used to Gemma didn't you notice this is how they communicate like being at home [Music] some time ago Marlon and Winchester and Remington all three made a smoothbore only 22 long-rifle and they were either bolt or pump and a lot of times he referred to as garden guns the idea was you had you had mice or rabbits or voles or moles or any number of small creatures in your garden that we're eating your vegetables but you didn't want to take out the 4570 to take care so they made these bolt action or slide action pump action 22s that did not have rifling and you shot the birdshot cartridge or the birdshot cases out of them that is amazing what is really amazing is that with the Remington 572 filled master smooth bar that had a bead front just like a shotgun would they used to have a game they called most skeet so we think of the shotgun game skeet and then we think of mosquito and my lord they called it most geet and they had these teeny tiny little clay pigeons and then they made an adapter for Ritz crackers and they have a tiny little thrower and it was a gallery game just like we talked about earlier and you used that pump-action Remington and you shot flying Ritz crackers or these tiny little more skeet plays can you do this indoors as well that's what that's what it was done with because the shot that it shot was like 10 shot or 12 shot it's like so twice to have a heavy curtain dad pretty much so or like a stiff breeze even probably just a fan ricochet no stiff breeze to like scale number 12 shot I want to say it's 2,200 pellets per ounce it's like sand we used to slip them into the trap pouches of our trap coaches when you're in high school and you couldn't break a bird at the 16 yard line with them so when you shoot them out of these obviously their effective range is pretty nil but you you can if you get handy enough I think you could probably peel a yellowjacket out of this guy yeah I don't know kind of switching gears but along the same premise of like these guys here with kind of the blue plastic yeah encasing that they made them for 40 fours yeah as well I just didn't seem that like shot one at a grouse one-time useless and I'm talking about I want to say feet five feet yeah useless and it's not like a crippled him and lost him like I don't think like he wasn't hurt yeah he was just kind of like I don't know was that it's like pockets and pockets and it's just like nothing nothing happened yeah I I have a similar story with Jackrabbit I went antelope hunting was was this second time I ever went antelope hunting my buddy and I went out and we were positive we were gonna get inundated with rattlesnakes like all of it because you know you're in the American West and it's kind of still hot out so he went out he's like well what do we do about snakes and so we didn't want to buy the snake boots that go up to you right that's just uncomfortable but we both had 38 special snub-nosed revolvers and then we bought a bunch of snake shot and you know we had small game licenses too and here's this Jackrabbit and we're thinking oh this is gonna be perfect we just use the 38 revolver it's like shooting 410 Adam we're gonna get a rabbit for the pot it's gonna be fantastic we're gonna have a great night and if anybody listening has never run into a jackrabbit a lot of times they don't just bust they just kind of like fold their ears back and pretend that they're a rock and you get pretty close to him so he sneaks up he was shooting a Ruger SP 101 short barreled revolver a little guy and he like he sneaks up through the sagebrush on this Jackrabbit and of course I'm watching it like this is perfect it's gonna be awesome and same thing he's like feet away and he talks back and I'm like oh cool we're gonna have dinner Wow and the rabbit didn't move I'm like I can't believe he misses like it's like 10 feet away and Kaktovik Wow and finally the rabbit kind of like looked at him like acknowledged that he was there like what are you doing man and then like just kind of hopped off and and and then he kind of like looked at me like defeated like there were blanks in that gun or something like that and I don't their effectiveness is very subjective it's better there's better ways to do it because I do know guys that load centerfire revolver cartridges with shot okay and they can peel a grouse off the trail at pretty considerable distances it's not those I was gonna say don't don't persecute me on that one because it was one shot one time and you were tunity you got it you got it the crimped ones the crimped ones we found were way better out of the smoothbore guns my buddies grandpa had one of those Remington pumps with the smoothbore and the crimped ones patterned like you could do stuff with them really yep yep made a very very good English sparrow inside the barn inside the garage what about you know if you are putting it through a rifled barrel in any risk not to the gun but it's gonna spin your your shot column that diminutive tiny little shot coming you're gonna have a terrible pattern distraction but in that that could have been as much of our problem as anything else you're already shooting sand at whatever you're shooting at and now the pattern dispersions tear right yeah the first utility of the long rifle it's unbelievable it really is it has done everything you can get tracers for him what regular people can get tracers form was it piney wood ammunition I think pine yeah 22 tracers pine themed I want company 22lr that blows up when it's something I don't know of any incendiary 22s sure with a little bit of basement chemistry we could make that happen that's probably not say that second long beep in the podcast anyway okay so 22lr I'm feeling we have a lot more than we can talk about 22lr some other future podcasts we want to hear you guys thoughts if by now trent brenny is still listening hey Trent I feel giggly sitting in the seat and so Trent being here yeah big 22 fan big time listener as well knows about centerfire cartridges centerfire 22s no just center fire in general Oh Trent do you comment questions comment below comment yeah anyway but also let us know what other 22 stuff we should talk about with that being said that being said from rats to elephants I'm surprised we actually invented other cartridges but we did thank who needs them that's right we'll do it all okay Oh we'll see you next time and everybody stay healthy and stay safe out there it's weird when you do a podcast and it's gonna release in a month and you don't know what's gonna happen in a month well everything's gonna be fantastic everything's gonna be great all right hope everything's great we'll see you next time see ya bye right every time we do a podcast I want to do something new and that thing today is smoothbore 22 mesquite have you seen how expensive those guns are no so never mind I'm out I'm out Marty Alex my partner has had one excuse me he traded it to a gentleman he called it his butterfly gun the problem is this is all pre-internet when people did cool stuff if you're using butter there's no consequence I don't think he actually zapped a butterfly I know he did mention several times that dragon flies on the wing and I shot the Dragonfly with my Daisy 888 about 20 yards had it not at that did it make a sound when he hit like it no I hit him in the wings I've told this story before but it's like my claim to fame oh yeah I spread them out 20 yards what I'm gonna do is create a series of drills and they all have smooth or 22 mm hmm turrets there you go with those around that's cause I'm what they have them sceeto sensing technology and all I around my yard and just wow talk about a total misuse of government spending we've been using this for war activities this whole time and we yessing drone swarms anti-missile can you imagine walking out in your backyard and there's just the sky is black you're the true look like War of the Worlds on mosquitoes well I got new you're on there's one that's trying to get a mosquito in your house which is running into your windows here's an unfired 572 smoothbore oh this is the this is the BDL - so the deluxe stock new in box $800 let me see it that's actually not as bad as I know how they were for new box is here for 40 so they don't make them any no they're horrible horrible failure I do it when my buddies when my buddies grandpa won one at a dachshund limited banquet and he was shitty you know he called me he's like this thing sucks I can't get this 22 to shoot at Oh oh my god he was shooting long rifles out of it mm-hmm so we get over there it's like friend this is a smoothbore hell's that mean he's for shooting shot you know this is no good we got to the point we're if you were if you were at the right distance you could tag an English barrel on the way what kind of distance like from no further than here to the rack and it pretty much had to be either on coming or going away okay the leads are well we never figured out the leads well this big it's tough to lead something that's playing so erratically - yeah I mean they change direction and when you do you that's another bird that I mean they can be a pest if they're like in your boat garage which I don't have by the way boat garage or we used to get them they'd want to live himself in our house you know but I like them for some reason not the same I have like I really liked that bird other than the fact that like if they become like a nuisance and abandoned someone of your structure they do bad things to other songbirds though yes there's no stress here is oh I'm sorry Ryan I was thinking swallows oh I was thinking ugh - yeah I can't shoot those yeah so this is an example of a yes sorry come on boom and emo ski thrower six will hit that thing six pitch targets you have to get the Ritz cracker adapter though that's seems to be the sure one could be made I love a Ritz cracker though that'd be hard to just get the knock off favorites one so when are we gonna do my patented through all these two LR so I was just thinking about this when you're right after you said that if you seen the new copper printer what do they call it thing for me there's a lot there's a lot of different metal 3d printers now this is like the new like desktop for sure um at home computer builders yeah and you feed it powdered copper interesting and it prints complex like circuitry yes okay yeah and so you said that trace that way the first thing you went through my result down ribs probably fine you could probably shoot Delrin down a rifle barrel at those velocities was 10 light yeah but if you had a solid copper projectile any 3d printed it you could get a slippery-ass bullet you could do a pretty good job do some interesting waiting it's a weight forward design I thought I thought he was going after a Palmer case you prep anything you're gone Palmer projectile it's too light yeah right I'm thinking and I say we prepped the whole damn yeah I don't know what I was going hungry about Heidi so I was talking to the guy who runs Alize reloading shop at shot this year and he was like oh no he's a real great thing he's like you can now you can buy prime to Isis if you'd like to load your ID and this and I'm thinking when you said that I was like oh my god if we got if we got a copper printer and primed Ely cases yeah and some I don't even know what powder you use for rimfire I don't know you this forget some probably European rimfire powder and we got we geeked out on that could you could you imagine it would be interesting all I gotta say survivalist community it's like picture shops 3d printer if you could give okay somehow Ian cot wind of all this there would be a thousand euro 22 competition but who would ever let her Holly what's that who would ever tell Ian I don't know about such a thing could you imagine yes yeah I think I could get just disappeared to come back and voila is this what you're talking about take down the start making turn projectiles except you make it completely Hollow in the back and so you can see a really long bullet inside the case because rather than being healed the heal is super long and then you've got all of the powder that goes up in it so you just drill a hole in the back of a turned projectile and you could get way longer bearing surface and probably change your sectional density so that you could actually stabilize at longer distances are you saying that the powder back in that iron bullet yeah and then it ignites and it's it it yes I get that you're saying oh my god so wait are you increasing the powder charge then you could you could because you got depends how long you make it okay and so what if I didn't think I was gonna get into LR 22 today it's not a metaphor Jim okay when we have a lathe here and I'm really curious so here's what you do you take your case design yeah we used to make optics but now we now we believe 22 yes I did you did you listen to the muzzle loader episode when we talked about I believe okay so oh yeah because you had your savage yeah here did you ever think that what not DiMaggio's priming modules um no so they are like a case head with a long stem on them Oh where's that piece of paper there can I cut kind of collar on the back yeah right now I'm not gonna let anybody borrow my god I don't have to burn it okay exactly so you have your case head that was 22 long-rifle diameter this is set up for a remington six-and-a-half primer because that's the one that you use for 218 bees and okay [ __ ] like that you have famous a21 a primer yeah okay you have the stem like you state we load it with tight group in here okay what is the stem then over the top like you said the bullet yep that is the same oal as a 22 long rifle yeah you fire it out I guess you'd have to have a little space back here to let the extractor hook on yeah out comes your case which you can reload so what are we minds me of when kids had those rockets that got Shh like yes you put it over the air cannon thing and you just go do this so I guess the concern I have is where's the pump we've got an ignition system that's striking the rim oh you can reset those so you get this set have to get a modified like center fire adapter yep okay so you just start cranking out new bolts they already make them for like yeah in the world here all you do is so it's a different firing pin and then you pile it a hole in the center of the yeah deal and so the firing pin instead of instead of it looking like a conventional rimfire firing pin like this that comes out at the top yeah this part is cropped this margin is extended yeah sure yep so one of the things about 20 that would make this power we offset the primer yeah it's gonna be hard then that would be hard to that yeah unless the primer was basically the same time there's a case it's that I don't know D BMG primary and then you don't need any powder right or if the abilities enough but one of the things that we didn't talk about that's a cool thing about twenty-twos is it's it's what's called a healed bullet yeah so yeah so the bullet is the same diameter as the case which is pretty unconventional and so the amount of bullet that's sitting in the case is actually kind of like recessed and and cut in and so we could change the length of this pretty much as much as we want which is why he was talking earlier about those subs that are like a 22 short case with just a really long project we're basically doing that but turning 22 long-rifle side cry that's really exciting but we could we could make super short cases and put a really long projectile and you just need to have enough pressure that you would increase the bearing surface though but I guess the problem is like it's simultaneously a leap forward and you're going back a good bit to because I'm thinking of like the expanding skirt on a man a ball mm-hmm that's kind of what you would have to do I don't know if you would want to draw the pressure out long enough that you still have like a lot of burn with a slow burning I don't know what you'd have to do but I kind of like where we're going Seth you to be on this more yeah yeah you're like as much of a Nerdist right um I mean which is awesome I'm still learning but you know I was I was lucky enough to you have a degree in nerd it's true it's yep I can't even say it's hung up anywhere that's how much of a nerd I am I think it's in the bottom my gun safe really yeah it's just in there now listen just I figure monetize didn't somehow uploaded it into you or something like um yeah it's actually an IV yeah no degree my degree no I lost yeah yeah I mean I'm fortunate enough to work for a gun shop was in college so I had 48 hours behind the counter got it and so I sold it sold vortex stuff before I came here oh nice so I was a vortex customer I sold vortex stuff and now I get to be here nice so kind of seen full circle yeah the whole the whole customer experience that's awesome so you are the customer if I will buy a salad bar to that we can absolutely destroy that I've been like do I give this to my sister did they just because yeah the bolts on the savage Mark 2's are super simple - yeah I totally see why is this another thing that we should draw and patent with Eddie this is this is like this is some serious day drinking level engineering I think this is this is I have no idea this is where you've been all isolation for so long the guard robe yeah I feel like I'm looking at the drawing intimacy but what about the case there is no case alternatively actually that's a good point a Nordics extraction look like you'd have you could do dual extractors say it right um the the Bergara I don't know if you've seen the new b14 yeah yeah well yeah tough size one but it's dual extractors and what I found was really interesting about that is the it's actually just one drilled hole and then a shared coil spring between both oh there's roll pins kind in the middle the hinges off of that's like yeah it's just like a 1:1 part pretty clever but yeah you can have dual extraction and then if you're a jecht er what do they hold them in with mm-hmm so there's just a coil spring between the two I'm assuming they're like 1022 style extractors yep so they're yeah and then there's just roll pins through the top oh and then they have a coil spring in the dock in the back yep and so it'll grab a hold of the case head and so the front is shaped such that it will accept the cartridge one feeding but then yeah there's just a spring here that's shared in one channel that that's easy right so that's easy so that you've got your you've got your rim you're flying up there for that you have open part of this case exactly I didn't like goes for better and I have Corona okay so that comes back here looks just like my bunny boobs ignition module this is our powder column so it's like the Remington hypersonic wad you ever seen that no they use a powder column of magnum rifle primer your muck breath magnum rifle powder to initiate your slow burn for pressure and then it ignites a fast burn powder it's two different powder blends the what's the application was what didn't know shotgun okay 1804 second shot shells yeah so that is what it looks like so this is the profile of your mm brass and Isis I mean and if you can extract and eject a twenty short you should be able to do it with whatever bearing surface you have there right and why not make it the same length okay I see what you're saying with with yeah with respect to where the extreme your engaged days oh so in terms of interface between because right now the the projectile is just floating right so in terms of interface here do we add just another skirt shoulder so you're sure it's real thin so that yeah is act like that Maday ball you chew or yeah so I guess you could do it as a heel the bullet the way it is right now or just take it the other way and just turn a smaller die have a fully rest on the skirt so then you just feed the entire thing but then you're still you're still head spacing off the rim so that's good you've got that in your favor well yeah you've just got to figure out what pressure curve results in bearing surface that would let this fly man you'd have to spin it faster too wouldn't you this is longer yeah but your Neal formula so I wonder what like how long will to have to drill up here in order to Janis Jim the correct you have some sectional density oh that's what smells so good I guess we can determine our powder column that way what are you reload backwards you take your bullet mm-hmm you set it in in press fill the bullet with powder and then seat the case on top yeah the projectile is upside down you can rapid you sell the projectiles like an seater do you give like a Niblick is small like a priming tool bit yeah almost like a you you spell like an interrupter thread down or you just cam it in place and just enough to you'd have to have like some little locking feature back here to engage and clip that on what an interesting man it's turned projectiles so we can pull every with one in there as long as we have a boring but it's small enough the worst part about this is we could do it on a little desktop way if it's like this big like a jewelers yeah exactly Monica yep and I've got this giant coolant feed lines coming through just planning it all but there will be no reason to here's what I love an hour ago both you guys go if you're absolutely insane you reload 22lr an hour later the 22lr what have we developed our own and made it on machines the twin ruined the 22lr I just plain sanitizer on my hands it's part of the process painful so the Nordic 22 when we built that we will pull out on one well pull out over the somehow we won the centralized firing pin system and we actually offset how everything would set up for the barrel so that you wouldn't have to deal with this goofy ass weird firing pin so the firing pin zone travels down the center of the barrel there setting up the bowl excuse me you could just make a barrel cuz okay you would need a barrel with the proper twist you're right with the bearing surface that long you're gonna have to increase your twist from one in 60 or one and 20 whatever the hell they are to like one in 12 month 10 new barrel I mean what's uh what's the 24 make those two all the projectiles are still too small so huh that's weird there's no what about the barrel that twists the 60 Greiner the issue is the firing pin though you don't have to do a new fight and push on like a savage dipole would be really easy to secure in the channel top yeah I Love New Hope what the fire pit down I thought you guys were already assuming that sorry you got ahead of all of you guys can just be [ __ ] to each other in here it's like I guess that's okay too I think yeah exactly no infinite harassment mm-hmm so I'll be honest I was pretty shocked when I got the invitation to be on the podcast because why not because I thought that my whole claim to vortex fame would be my mother mailing you those dude it was the great bidding ever the admits they're awesome I used to burn my fingers so many times and that stupid thing because I was trying to use paper towels as oven mitts she actually Robert I know she's super excited yeah yeah she got one yesterday it's like yep that is awesome I didn't know that so just so you know you're firing pin Channel sorry Larry oh yeah every time I use those things I'm out right in thanks Seth's mom I gotta go to zoom yeah sorry no I think don't worry about you yes I'm actually it was this was fantastic guys anybody else I'm out alright that'll wrap it up for this episode of the vortex nation podcast thanks everybody for listening hit that subscribe button so you can always stay up to date on the latest happenings over here at the vortex nation podcast you can also follow us on instagram at vortex nation podcast and everybody thanks and happy hunting and shooting we appreciate it have a good one

Channel: Vortex Nation Podcast

Views: 42,543

Rating: 4.8269229 out of 5

Keywords: Vortex Optics, Vortex, Vortex Nation, Vortex Nation Podcast, Podcast, Optics, .22, 22lr, .22lr, ammo, ammunition, rimfire, rifle, cartridge, elr, long range

Id: mFIbUPDyXH0

Length: 104min 27sec (6267 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 20 2020