Ep. 101 | The 6.5 Revolution

hey what's up everybody we just wrapped up a podcast here with mr. Brian McCann hearing all about these six five revolution we see six fives all over the place and many different varieties of many different names and this little bullet right here or ones very similar to it it caused quite an uproar good one and in our industry we would say so we discussed all kinds of things as to where this bullet came from sort of the entomology if you will all the different cartridges that come in six five as well as some bullet performance characteristics in hunting snares as well that one was one that really blew my mind and pretty interesting stuff basically the who what where when how how of the six five a little bit of history is it as new as maybe we think it is maybe not check it out you did good right old man you [Music] all right what is up everybody got Jimmy to my right and our in-house encyclopedia Ryan mocking her and across the table from us I'm a little hot right now just physically I've got a nice quarter zip sweatshirt on underneath it I've got a Hollister t-shirt which I love the shade of gray but I can't take my sweatshirt off because it will reveal that I'm wearing a Hollister t-shirt which by now all of you guys know just a little embarrassing nothing against Hollister I'm just not seven so also wearing is said a nice denim jeans some gray sake knees I'm just [ __ ] locs I'm just setting the stage you are the world everybody knows hot we do it sweaty we got to pay extra attention to those folks out there don't watch on YouTube they got to know exactly what this room looks like we're sitting in front of a rich wood of sorts table top anyway carry on a few few dents where gems done some manual reloading manual reloading I always rub my finger right across that before every podcast so it's episode 101 though mark I'm just kind of having some like a sentimental moment I know we eclipsed that 100 mark by the way I'm completely off the monster that was a terrible idea that's like drugs that's alright nothing against monster cute everybody to have Eve everybody drinks them successfully but me why don't we have you back topic of today's discussion not my body temperature not your drink of choice we're talking today about a little thing that I like to call the 6'5 revolution Jim yes now that seems in today's day and age of modern cartridges we have a lot of 6.5 options we've got the 6.5 Creedmoor which I almost feel like even those somewhat newer it's kind of like this baseline and then 10,000 a slang quite quickly it came this baseline quite didn't I don't know we can go into the get there but we have actually six five options that came well well had a via and some after and to make sense of this like can you I see you have a list of all the six 500 and it's probably not even awesome yeah that's fine you can use the list we I here for some examples okay yeah and by the way so I was trying to do some research beforehand so I could talk at least a little bit smart yeah all I succeeded in doing was confusing myself and really not being able to define a lot of the I mean there's differences you can see differences but trying to make a choice not that easy so we got the six five Creedmoor of course the 65 to 80 for this is the 65 to 80 for Norma which might just be the 65 to 80 for the 65 300 the 65 RPM the 65 short action ultra mega or the 6 5 psalm the 6 5 PRC the 260 remington which I guess isn't a 65 but it's kind of a six five the six five out six the six five gap and the twenty six Nosler which seems kind of like a six five well and then there's then that whether it be 65 RPM or something right yeah 65 did you say PR see we have a reloading loop for that dies I think I mentioned the six I think I mentioned the PRC and yes yeah you did if I didn't I was for a second to many six fives so maybe six fives Ryan what's happening what so I was pointing at the Hornady reloading manual in this version here this is their tenth you start going through that at the 65 page it's a very large chunk of the book yeah it goes I mean all the way back to like 65 B r65 Carcano six five Japanese I mean it just it just keeps going six five Swedish yep six five sweetie I didn't have that on there is there a six five for every like country and nationality in the planet very popular bullet diameter very recently American well sort of the 264 Win Mag goes back a long time oh so there's there's that I've never heard of that one yeah that's a that's that's a cool cartridge but it goes back a long time but was it ever like a mainstay Oh 264 when Meg absolutely was yep so pre 64 model 70s what do they call those the Westerners was the version chambered in that you know and so like along today's modern rifle lines it was they built it for the Western hunter longer barrel you know designed to run optics of the time that we're we're a high steppin okay um okay yeah maybe by modern standards if you look at the cartridge it's nothing magical so what are the there's some other regions of the world where six five well I guess the six five suite yep right is that is is that like a huge air version of the ott six or sermoning yes absolutely yep interesting in that country that would be Nordic nations Nordic nations especially the six fives are very popular no there's something special about the diameters six five because like when you look at I mean we've talked to the guys at Hornady before and they'll say you know when you add weight to a bullet which I know some people you know talk about adding weight to a bullets make it more stable through the air or something like that you add length and then there's diameter of the bullet which is i'd imagine going to add or subtract some weight but that's not necessarily the e way of adding weight right it's also how it what's how do they even decide I think what is really magical about the projectile its length relative to its weight relative to its diameter like all encompassing from a hunter's perspective you end up with a bullet that has what's called a very high sectional density so it penetrates well for its weight for its length for its speed and then what does high sectional density mean so the higher the figure the more and somebody who's listening that has a much better understanding of the determination of sectional density is its cross-section relative to its weight okay yeah so the higher that value the better it penetrates so if you were shooting something that was like made out of some unobtainium that was very heavy but it was smaller than this would have a lower sectional yeah so like if you had a wider shorter bullet yeah and the scales right so if we're looking at a hundred and forty grain six five bullet versus 140 grain seven millimeter bullet versus a hundred and forty green 30 caliber bullet which are like the progression through the diameter is going up in caliber we have a lower sectional density the higher we go in caliber right because the bullet is getting wider but correct okay okay or not longer necessarily so okay okay now we start goofing around with different alloys that kind of throws things a bit because you can have longer bullets out of different alloys I have the same weight and so somebody who's more intelligent than I am when it comes to that kind of things could could weigh in on that like if a longer bullet is made out of a lighter alloy but it has the length you know what are we doing there we're not changing the SD because of the weight itself but there's some other properties there for the competition shooter anyways the bullet is slippery or fast looking in design so we have high BC mm-hmm I mean that's why they're very pad are all six five bullets high BC not necessarily no because if you look at like a six five interest most of the time the guys I know that shot B are cartridges whether it was six five PPC or six five B are they shot flat based bullets and not really heavy weight flat based bullets it was just a really mild and accurate cartridge and bullet diameter and so that was why they were kind of mainstream for a little bit but you just said accurate but they didn't have I be season s acerra Li need a high B C to be accurate and a lot of the bench rest competition out of those nothing yeah we got to hit the red button he just dropped the four drops out he goes into a pool of sharks with lasers ya know so some of those BR competitions are like hundred 200 and 300 yards sure yeah and so okay a flat base was appropriate and some some cases you get better accuracy out of a flat base or the potential know is that just because the bullet is seated better in the case or something that's more consistent or a gentleman told me once that shot those is that the in this again in fact check the boat tail design mm-hmm can allow the bullet to yaw and can't upon firing okay because there's going to be parts of the bullet that are not its base that are being influenced by the pressures upon ignition okay where's a flat base being flat in the back a full contact of force and pressure rearward is consistent even on the base of the bullet increasing its inherent accuracy okay I'm strolling stretch this out over distance though and then start putting wind influence on there the slippery road slippery rear design of a boat tail yeah it's going to improve that yeah okay reminds me of like when you try backing up and reversing a trailer it you're pushing against a tiny little hitch even though the trailer is quite wide so any little forces you enact upon its side to side can make it you know the way go over to the side whereas if you were just backing into someone's house and your rear bumper was just straight up against the side of their house it's just you just right in if my father's listening we were talking about the kill those are right before this so I'm yeah destruction I still can't back a trailer up it's hard I'm not good right to go left left to go right Jim your expert status by the way I've seen you do some pretty impressive stuff yeah it's just because dad handed me the keys and in the neighborhood with the old u-haul ones and just told me get it down the driveway I'll see you in two hours figure it out that's probably the only way to do it anyway yeah six five Wow okay somehow we just started talking about sectional densities and weight what you see did you refer to that as st but that's not standard not standard deviation DV okay also an SD also an SD oh yeah well I mean here's the deal with a lot of cartridges nowadays it seems like I'm probably paraphrasing here cartridge development we need a new cartridge for some six five on it that's what it kind of feels yeah or poor some Creedmoor on it or poor some Creedmoor on it mm-hmm which actually I'm not I own two six five great Morris I love them I think it's an excellent cartridge I like these hi BC long super-sexy six five bullets yeah but it just there's so many of them yeah why what's the when I were to look at 65 Creedmoor in front of us right I look at a 6'5 cream or if you were to show me the 65 PRC right now I know we have the reloading dies for it in front of us but the actual cartridge what would the difference be sighs so the PRC is a much larger cartridge by like its volumetric we talk mostly about the case oh it's the same so 140 143 147 and is the same projectile yep we're just changing the case yep now when you change is there is there a number every when somebody says 308 65 Creedmoor 270 220 swift whatever that's all talking about the bullet correct there's no way to know exactly what case is being well sometimes depending on the designation a lot of metric cartridges that have the remainder of the designation listed like let's take for example 6.5 by 55 Swedish Mauser 6.5 would denote the bullet diameter 55 would denote the case length in millimeters okay okay yeah fun fact oh they're so but anyway as you change the case then as primarily is the thing that you're doing the most of changing just how much powder you can put behind it - then just shove it out the barrel faster or maybe slower correct is that it yeah yep so like what is the 65 Creedmoor that air them started the 65 PRC case is it longer is it wider both it's both yep is it more or less accurate than the 6-hour crude mark I think that the this is going to spark a lot of arguments people talk about cartridges that are inherently accurate by design if you have a really good rifle you might get a cartridge it's you know easier to load and mild-mannered and that is going to lend itself to some some accuracy or a cartridge or a case it's easier to tune but you can have a rifle in a cartridge that's quote not inherently accurate shoot phenomenally well if everything goes right I think the thing with the PRC is that you're adding hundreds of feet per second of velocity in a similar action length without going astronomical on the recoil scale it's a hyper accurate cartridge it's named PRC precision rifle cartridge yeah yeah so it's designed it's did you the very same thing the Creedmoor was with more juice but just faster turn it up to 11 yep and it's about what 200 so 50 in on the chrono with the testing that I've done it's a 147 at about 29 50 so this is a 140 at about 27 10:27 20 in the Creed more yeah all these different six five bullets six five gaps 6 5 at 6 6 5 rpm 6 5 306 all those there are all just the same bullet in a different case yep it it I feel like what am I trying to say at this point how why would you change the case side change this application that's right so here's a good for instance my hunting partner and I talked about this a lot like what is the ideal cartridge for a particular thing and and he started shooting 6 5 Creedmoor on game many years ago his first rifle if I can recollect this was a Cooper custom Cooper out of a gun shop in South Dakota was an addition gun called the Jackson Excalibur and he had that chamber than 65 Creedmoor this is the same guy used to shoot 25 at 6 yep ok a very accurate rifle very mild-mannered to shoot but when you look at the numbers on a 65 Creedmoor like if you're somebody who looks at foot-pounds of energy and velocity is the important thing in the factory it's not a wildly powerful cartridge by some standards no and that's a whole nother topic of discussion one that we can tie into some of these other cartridges here but he wanted a little bit more we wanted a particular velocity threshold to be met with a particular way to bullet or a particular style of bullet to take a certain group of game animals and so he built himself a 6'5 on 6 actly which if you were to add a number of millimeters to the case length of this well literally take this bullet and very similar shoulder profile and put it in a 30.6 yes he on his chronograph with 143 Green Hornet eld X's was getting about 30 150 and he's got a pretty middle-of-the-road load so he's got some room to go on this so we're taking a bullet that the Box posted velocity is twenty seven hundred and ten feet per second on the factory loaded Hornady stuff and he's adding four hundred feet per second to it yeah significant yes and that is significant that is over a football field in a second yes and he's going in not that much larger of a case I don't have his load data but it's moving it's a very impressive cartridge I will be adding one to my list pretty shortly so when people say they want to reach a certain velocity threshold yep why do they want to reach that exact how do you how does one determine what velocity threshold you even want to be I mean so a lot of personal interpretation of this but if you wanted to flatten the trajectory of your cartridge you can do it by increasing the BC the velocity or both right and then we end up with a flat or shooting gun and then if you you know if you wanted to push a particular weight of bullet because I particulars isle of bullet was available in that weight class at a particular velocity to make a certain trajectory you have to do it by increasing velocity and so he got all he could out of the Creedmoor and he thinks it's a great cartridge he is I think I've been with him and present on no less than probably a dozen big game kills with the 65 Creedmoor some of them at extraordinary ranges some of them you know every reasonable Rangers he just wanted a little more and were tinker's so we goof around with it and the six 5.6 was the next step without going to a different Bowl face like a magnum boldface mm-hmm or a very large action and keeping you have stuck with the 65 still had he gone to this Magnum both face and different action yeah we talked about it talked about doing like a six five short action ultra-mega or six five wisdom which is a thing well yeah somebody named and that's where you would need to change to a Magnum bold things yep handle long action doll so those two specifically would stay in a shorter action yeah but the case the 30.6 case had already been six five long time ago and in quite a few iterations too so it was like the six five out six a square then there's the six five Gibbs which are all based roughly on that case so the six five one six of course and then the Gibbs is a little bit different a little bit different shoulder a little bit different neck length but parent case right so knowing what we could get out of out of that case or theoretically what we could get out of out of that case that's where he made that that choice on ok yeah I feel like I want to talk about every single 65 on here but I just know that we'd be sitting here forever and well that was one of my thoughts to just go down the list and try and and sort them all out but so well let me let me pick two that least in my head seem like they might be somewhat similar and one the six five the six five psalm versus the six five WSM which I didn't even know there was a WM version of the six five oh no they've ruined it or made it better you know just like everybody says I think cartridge and Creedmoor a to get it better you don't think I was like six five lipid Leopard sounds like something that the bad guy in a James Bond movie would use so is this a commercially available cartridge oh okay no but very popular okay yeah also called the Sherman short Meg okay I like that well maybe let's not talk about that one because I think let's talk about commercially available still availabl stuff if you were to look at this list how come that what's it with two 26 nozzle the nozzle or cartridges confuse me because yet 28 nozzle or 26 now what are those numbers refer to so 26 is the common bullet or the abbreviated bullet diameter so two point two six four with no six five so it's like the 260 but they just took the zero off so dunno like the f150 they took the the 1500 million 150 okay so nozzles approach this is pretty slick so 26 we know it's a 65 28 we know it's a 730 we know it's 30 33 we know it's a 338 I don't have a 375 Nosler so they don't have anything in that heavyweight class or medium bar class I should say but yeah so the 26 Nosler is a good example because that's like a hypervelocity cartridge we've gotten to a full like almost as big a diameter of cases you can get in like a commercially available or standard action not super long necessarily but it's a big case you know hypervelocity we're pushing that same bullet at hundreds and hundreds of feet per second faster now that in the 65 Creedmoor and then on the other end of that scale the 65 cream or it's a good I think ace line to start with because everybody has one nowadays it seems yeah so in going with the 26 nozzle with this very big case very volume is case you are able to flatten out your trajectory tremendously now we haven't had a 26 in here yet market a 28 in here and we ran the numbers on it and it is flat it is flat six Mills to a grand whoa what it's a laser with a 178 175 grain honey-bunny it's six mils of drop yeah and holy crap this the cream or that I was shooting out of a grant was like oh my god so it's flat and so that's the thing I feel like that just opened my eyes to what people are talking about when they talk about flattening a trajectory yeah cuz I'm so like to put it into perspective for people aren't dialing turrets a lot let's talk about six mils of adjustment first ten and a half right so in I was shooting the Diamondback tactical first focal plane scope I mention a lot on here at the vortex extreme five mils of adjustment per rotation of the turret I had a total of two mils of adjustment I'm sorry I was right not to Nelson that's not right two rotations two full rotations I had after I was zero so when I wanted to go out to a grand I was maxed on my available adjustment so that was it I had run out and then I could use my reticle from there to help me the rest of the way but it's never ideal if I was shooting that cartridge this 28 nozzle you're talking about I'd have been able to go one full Rev and then another mil and still have four mils of adjustment left over yeah and so that's that's why you do it you you bump that case size up and you get into a whole different animal yeah right what would that case be like similar to they like the more common cartridge that we go like oh I know what that looks like I think Finn a wisdom considerably Oh interesting yeah so very similar diameter to that case that a fairly long and it but not so long as like a like a 300 ROM case like you wanted moose for the 300 rum mm-hmm so shorten that case up a little bit okay but longer than you wisdom it's a big case when you hold in your hand well you know the 28 oz are just neck that down half a millimeter so then how would that differ then I guess going back to the 65 Psalm which is kind of like a short fat so the psalm is a little bit narrower than the wisdom and a little bit shorter is there is there a significant difference in cartridges between when you fatten the case to get more powder in it verse lengthening the case to get more powder in it depending on which ballast tition or reload are you're talking to yeah there's a balance there okay a lot of a lot of folks feel the short fat cases are very efficient and you can accomplish it burns all at once so to speak rather than burning up the long column on case yep correct so like when we start running numbers on 300 Win Mag which is a cartridge i own and load four versus 300 wisdom which is a cartridge i've owned and loaded for I was really able to match what I could do in my win mag out of my wisdom with less powder yeah but there's some other stuff going on there too and it depends if I if I went to a heavyweight bullet my wisdom I would start to neuter it whereas the wind mag would pull away so there's give and take so another another point there's just less room to seat that cartridge correct before we start getting into issues where we're interfering with mag length so if we were feeding through a box fed magazine you know I wouldn't be able to do 190 green projectile or 200 green projectile out of my wisdom and and have the same performance that I would say out of my win mag because I can just seat the bullet out longer on my win mag I'll Finnegan I don't run box mags so yeah I mean there's a there's a whole bunch of like stepping stones that you got a toe around when you're deciding how to build a cartridge and make it either efficient or make it a powerhouse or you know that kind of thing length and width is certainly one of them so I just feel there's so many parallels to like tremendous about tuning engines yeah that's like deep bore it D is stroke it did change the cam dude you know yep that's wild yep but I think the bottom line with a lot of this stuff is is like you like taking the 65 creed I guess is like maybe like a modern-day baseline of six fives and getting something that is kind of bigger hotter faster even the same bullet and and I guess using that bullet as a baseline as well for what it offers as far as I'd say in general not always but you can get these you know high sectional density high BC bullets that perform very efficiently at long well outside of your expectation for that caliber like that that small of a caliber mm-hmm it's why this is complete theorization or maybe it may be everybody knows why why do you think even though the 65 Creedmoor isn't the oldest by any means of the bunch how has it become such a standard of the 65 here's my theory and i think it's a great cartridge and I own several of them and I have taken game animals with with them I think that our friends at Hornady did a very good job with this cartridge and doing a few things one making it very pleasant to shoot it's not it's not a high recoiling cartridge this is there any six 5s that are high recling started in turin oh yeah absolutely so like some six fives will buck you pretty good absolutely is it some of the ones with the bigger case there's lots of powder and even though they're pushing that same bullet just absolutely okay so that's that's one of them so it's a very pleasant cartridge issued or mild whatever you want to call it number two extremely affordable when it came out it was it was 2007 the first rifle I ever saw chambered in 65 Creedmoor was a TC icon weathershield which was a really cool gun and there was very few of them and people dismissed the cartridge immediately one because it wasn't a thirty at six or a seven Ram Meg and then two because they said that this super proprietary ammo will never be able to be found on shelves that stigma held and still holds to this day I checked personal computers yeah he'll never work i chat with folks on the phone all the time they say I didn't go with the 65 then with a 308 because you can find you can find 308 everywhere but you can't find 65 anywhere and and I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement you can buy 65 cream or ammo pretty much everywhere now oh yeah aside from availability affordability go ahead and price this out at your favorite retailer for 65 mm oh we've got a box of 140 green TLD M ammo here which is what we use for testing at the shop my shooter that matches all the time look at the cost of this ammo on the retailer shelf versus the cost of the same loading in 308 170 160 at 178 grain LD match that is dollars cheaper and so for a shooter who wants to go out to the range and become very familiar with their rifle there's a few things that they have to take into consideration how long can I shoot it before I cry uncle on the recoil scale and how long can I shoot it until I cry uncle on the wallet and with the 65 you can do it a lot more than the 308 and and then they were very clever in talking about these attributes to the cartridge and releasing it that I think all stirred is populating that and of course is an extraordinary cartridge it really is a darn good cartridge it shoots very well it's hyper accurate and the rifles that is chambered in can do wonderful things when you're running with it or when your target shooting with it well I'd say that when you talk about hunting to at probably the range is most people are hunting and I guess I'll speak to maybe deer size game or even elk I'd say out to 400 or something like that it's gonna work pretty darn good it's gonna work great I'd say speculation you know I probably fall into this mental camp of like oh man when I step it up to elk like I need a bigger cartridge whether that is true or not you know I think it might be a little bit in my head but going back to the popularity of this cartridge I've somewhat wondered Ryan if it's a cartridge that horny did a fantastic job with it was adopted by the long-range community so overnight so it kind of garnered I guess some street credit there very quickly and I feel like it's a cartridge of kind of like this size with the sorts of numbers that are attached to it and the fact that it's a mild recoiling cartridge but it didn't attack the ego you know what I mean of the person like I mean like I'll say even some crowds that I ran with you know I bought a 243 I'm like I'm gonna hunt deer with this 243 like oh yeah gets cartridge neat right you know and I feel like the six five people like oh yeah six five greed yeah great no that's good choice you know like the same the same group of people that would said like oh that's a kids cartridge or you know that seems that seemed a little recoil yeah we all know mark isn't because I've been shooting the 300 wasn't forever I'll say of course I've been shooting a lot of 6-5 Creed and when I jump back to thank you I've seen mark shoot some pretty high high bucking stuff it doesn't really faze him it's pretty I flinched I shoot 300 ways I'm like damn that thing hurts he shoot nice take a little group I'm like man it's not pleasant he's got that I don't enjoy if he's got that dance drink that no it's the truth I think it is but but he's very right though I didn't probably do a good job of explaining and the ego things kind of a real deal because now I have people say the same thing about 308 they're like what do you want I thought Michael I don't with 308 a lot my homeboys really well like it's inadequate in the anaemic and they say the same thing about a lot 6 - yeah that one baffles me yeah is it what is it is it more someone they saying that it's not so much like oh man you pansy it's more just kind of like oh you're using that period cartridge now where do you put the ramrod yeah yeah so I think I think there's a lot of stigma surrounding cartridges and and the 6'5 is gotten popular to the Creedmoor speaking of people I mean if you can get your Flint to spark that 3 Oh it'll go every time yeah yeah I see I haven't forbid you're out in the rain or having to shoot beyond 40 meters I think that the Creedmoor did a good job of avoiding those pitfalls whether it be by affordability or clever marketing or both it also fills a an interesting void that I think was kind of left open by some other cartridges and yeah okay I guess on on the one if you look on either end of it what and I don't want to start making this a seven millimeter product cast by any means but I've seen people talk about you need to talk about the 243 we did ten minute talk on that and the six Creedmoor a lot of people like shooting six Creedmoor and precision rifle and stuff like that slight recoiling you can get good accuracy out of it but then there's the question of certain types of game maybe of course I'm sure anybody could probably kill anything with any cartridge and kill a deer with a rock if you try hard enough but you know there is the question of isn't is it potent enough then you go up to the 65 and people don't have that question as much maybe when you get into the really really big stuff yeah that's quite a question starts to come back in but then if you go up to the seven millimeter are you in significantly higher recoiling not as pleasant potential territory attention yeah so the 65 Creedmoor is the nice balance between the two I'm sorry the 65 just in general I keep saying Creed mark is just naturally you you make a interesting statement there in the perception of potency or adequacy for game applications and I think actually its availability and shoot ability is somewhat of a double-edged sword because I think some people of learn to shoot this cartridge very well yeah and having the ability to shoot a cartridge well I think makes you inherently a more ethical hunter right well he's taking out of the conversation a couple of other things right but being able to shoot your equipment and shoot your rifle well and learn your optics makes you more lethal yeah and I think that if you have a shooter who's comfortable with their rig regardless of caliber they can probably do some pretty fascinating things with it the other side of that coin is that I think it has instilled a little bit of I guess some some false overconfidence yeah I've heard a lot of people say like I'd never take game animals with a 270 passed 400 yards what do you shoot sir or ma'am six-five Creedmoor well that is silly because if we look at the numbers it's the same thing Jack O'Connor's 270 is eating your lunch and now with some of the modern loadings eating your lunch well past what you thought your lunch was available at so I think it is and it does install a little bit of like a false confidence in the cartridge what I saw now it's got this little bit of a reputation like it's made of magic yeah like it's loaded with roundup exactly and and I think you know if you if you keep everything in check you know you'll be all right it's a good cartridge I think it's a fine cartridge I think it's a good deer and antelope cartridge mm-hmm shot a deer with it three weeks ago yep yeah we're fabulously um what is the difference between this and the 260 I used its long-range capabilities at 81 yards so that's a really excellent question when I when I hear 260 I think you tow it the 260 you might as well call it the 260 Utah the 260 is a really good March that's popular it was my first 65 mm and I was enamored with it on paper they screwed it up when they first did it he kind of did yeah kind of wasted the barrels wrong that was part of it and then there's the optimization of case capacity in bullet weight and length and that's where the Creedmoor really pulled ahead so ten years after the commercialization of this of the 260 which is 97 the Creedmoor was released and if you look at the two side-by-side they're very similar like from a structural standpoint and then on paper is the 260 a modified 308 kit is just straight neck down so then the 65 Creed is modified 30 TC which is also what the 308 is no the 30 TC is a little bit older than that the 30 TC is a is a brand new case altogether it shares the same old face but it has a different web and extract or groove Pro well I should say web but extractor group profile length shape shoulder profile body taper angle and neck length okay and and really I look at the 30 TC is somewhat of a modernized like if you were to look at the 308 and be like okay we need to take this airframe trim some weight out of it so it can fly higher and faster you would come up with a 30 TC okay yep so it does everything the 308 did any slightly smaller package well one of the guys over at Hornady Dave Emery slapped a little bushing on there and knocked that thing down to 65 and plugged in 140 green bullet and voila we have the 65 Creedmoor what it does over the 260 if anything is allow you to seat your bullets out longer without getting excessively longer on cartridge overall length so we now are able to feed it in box magazines designed around the 308 Winchester where the 260 if we were to take the same bullet and seat it out at the length required to get the right amount of powder in there to reach that velocity that we're looking for we may exceed those mag lengths okay and if you're shooting if you're not shooting out of box mag doesn't really matter right depending on your gun uh-huh but but that was really the sauce is we made a more efficient case design that allowed us to utilize that bullet weight and profile without goofing how it's going to interact with our magazines feeding and that kind of thing because the 260 who hotrod the to 60s can heat this thing's launch to yeah it should it's got larger case capacity but there's a couple of caveats come along with it like what's your cartridge overall length well depending on your gun it doesn't matter if you if you have the right rifle that can accept a co al that's a little bit longer your 260 is going to be your superior ballistic cartridge yeah co al cartridge overall like okay yeah sorry okay and that is the same thing with the 243 v6 scream or six cream or is an improved case design that allows you to shoot those heavyweight six millimeter bullets that are very long and start eating into your case capacity yeah and then lowering your velocity with it more efficient case design is it always the case that the cartridges that have the 308 270 243 whatever designations what is that standard Imperial or whatever standard versus metric is it always the case that the standard ones are a little bit of more the more antiquated one the metric ones are always the well bit today maybe that's what it seems like it's like every time I hear somebody's mention a cartridge that's that's written out in metric terms it's like slightly more efficient than the similar version that's in standard Imperial it would be like a British descent gem it just kind of make stuff better if not I had this conversation ten years ago that would be remarkably different because the only metrics that had been successful in the u.s. to any real degree were the sevens the sevens yeah then I'll say this for whatever reason growing up right you know my first two dear guns both thirty-aught-six is because they're 30.6 is people be like I've got a 7mm I'd be like I just don't sound right lose I don't like it but that was the only one that was really I don't speak Italian alright but here Frenchie but if you look at this if you look at the 264 Win Mag v the seven millimeter REM meg which were introduced very close to each other okay they're very similar in performance and I mean depending on what camp you're in you could give the nod an advantage to either one the seven swept the 264 put it in the dirt and it fell into obscurity very quickly and the seven continued on so weird it is it but the pendulum swings right yeah so I've been into quote long-range shooting seriously now for about I don't know maybe eight or nine years prior to that I dabbled and I can remember when like your 308 Winchester was your baseline right totally yep mhm and then the pendulum swung and then people are like you got to go to a 338 for long range and this was in my ignorance and understanding that well okay if you go with a 338 you're gonna have a huge rifle it's gonna weigh a lot scan I have a completely different recoil characteristic blah blah blah blah the pendulum swung back and then people like not to seven and then now the pendulum swings and now it's a six five so I believe that it will go somewhere else there are burgers producing 270 bullets that are high weight like 156 okay and it's a 270 and like when folks would think 270 they think you're shooting a tuna can out of a case because they think it's terribly inefficient right that bullets profile is exceptional look at that BC look at that SD that's an amazing projectile blackjack we talked about there there 131 green ace bullet and the last podcast which is a 25 caliber oh oh yeah hyper BC excellent characteristics for that maybe it's 225 maybe that's where the pendulum swing snacks for now it's definitely six five do you what does the pendulum swing because people just get bored yep I think we're always looking for a better mousetrap you know like I said which is why civilization advances I mean you do get advancements out of that but sometimes I think you just get sort of like reasons to just buy new stuff out of that too right right right well and maybe this is an example of it maybe it's not when I was kind of doing looking at a couple things like I don't know a whole lot about the 65 to 84 right but that's an old cartridge I was looking at some stuff on paper and I was like it's not wildly it didn't appear to be wildly different than the 6-5 Creedmoor and i'm well if that's was around weird action length so intermediate actually not a short not along intermediate okay no if you shoot a Remington 700 it's a long okay interesting body diameter because a little chubbier than the 30.6 but the rim is rebated to fit a thirty at six or have 473 boldface so it's kind of a weird cartridge okay like for the it's time when you looked at it well even the 284 so backing up before it was a six five to 84 it was just 284 if you look at the guns that the 284 was developed around like the winchester model 100 and you're like that cartridge is space-age that rifle is yeah for some people okay I think the 100 is kind of a cool gun but or the savage 99 it's a high-performance cartridge but it was in a weird rifle platform well done shooters were like you can feel your own we could make something out of this and you know they necked it down to 65 and it worked 140 gram bullet at 3,000 feet per second that was the magic the magic swing and it might three thousands pretty optimistic for its time maybe you know maybe there's a hundred or two feet per second slower than that but at the time that was a really darn good case to do that on that one countless titles and an accounted for hundreds of had of game at long range and for at least when I was kind of becoming very fascinated with hand loading and ballistics and things like that was the the very high-performance interesting cartridge the 6-5 284 and and now it's kind of like taking a back burner because there was a better way to do it and for what you're getting out of a 65 to 84 or what you can get reasonably it's maybe not worth it I don't know it's really up to the shooter I mean I hear people say that a particular cartridge isn't a good idea for a number of reasons but I think it's a fine cartridge there's better mousetraps they are more efficient they are smaller they are lighter recoiling their brass is more attainable you know these kinds of things or you can buy factory ammo and for a lot of shooters that's a huge thing you can go down to your local sporting goods store and you can pick this box ammo for 21 box you can't do that with 65 to 84 there go the to see or the 6'5 cream or brains game yeah do you think like for a beginning shooter that it makes sense to go out and get at this point in time a 6-5 Creedmoor versus say a 308 or something like that because now here's one of those here's one of those I have the personal computer will never work kind of kind of questions almost the 6'5 creamer is obviously very popular very hot now it seems to me like it has gotten it has it has broken past the it's almost on a runner's high to the point where it's gotten so hot and so popular that I feel it has it has almost been inducted into the Hall of Fame as it will probably be a very timeless cartridge I agree like the 308 you'll see military adoption of it which is going to military adoption where that'll help a lot actually - yeah which is probably part of the reason why the 308 has stayed around so long I live 6 estate around so long you know so it's kind of at that point what do you think are some of those timeless cards that maybe I even just mentioned all of them but those are good ones 308 six-five cream or other one 7 red meg 3 7 we make 300 Win Mag 270 I think all of those are well placed and there's some that probably should be that aren't that were great cartridges like the straight 284 Winchester just this the standard version of it excellent cartridge very very very great cartridge 280 Remington fell on its face it was reintroduced twice we just built a 280 280 ai yeah tweet okay yep which is now gaining popularity at an alarming rate and what is the difference between an AI and a 280 Remington is that like Creedmoor it sort of yes it's a shoulder profile change in a neck length change in a body taper change so you know instead of having a taper to the cartridge it's popped out almost straight and they have it instead of having like a gentle slope to the shoulder it's popped out much sharper you see what do these things have to do with anything baseball how does that it's only a case fine yeah why does somebody even make so when you have something like this where you say that somebody took it and they bumped it out a little bit for case-finding they made it a less gradual slope of the neck and made it a little bit more severe if you will so that you could get more powder in there more case volume why doesn't everybody just do that from the beginning well it's a good question right it came down buried in the beginning so if we look at like modern cartridge design good cause we go we'll go way back we'll go circa 1873 we'll go to the 45 70 okay yeah so straight wall straight wall yeah just like a black stick we're filling it up and we're stuffing a bullet into it and we start getting into some shouldered cartridges and we'd go back to some of the British like the Snyder's and and things like this but we'll go to the 3030 so 1894 now we're using a different type of powder and we're getting velocity out of a large case volume and a smaller bullet diameter and that kind of gentle gradual slope and shoulder angle to control headspace as opposed to a rim and maybe the 3030 is not a great example for that but that style of cartridge design was in the fashion so they were getting there their tapers and their necks and stuff because the bullets are getting smaller smaller bullets larger cases existent cases got it okay and so this is how we're achieving velocity with with smokeless powders yeah and then moving forward and moving forward and moving forward we got some like 300 H and H if you want to see a cartridge it looks very out of place on a modern landscape look at a 308 H right now so long tapered case alt on it I mean it's got a lot of things going against it's a fabulous cartridge it's really on paper not much better than a non-sex oh that's a weird-looking thing it looks like the Washington Monument yep it's a goofy cartridge won Wimbledon several times amazing long range guns what's that 165 thing Ian brought in one time that shot a cartridge similar to that where it was this real long like so that was a joint in looking the thing a six five by oh man I can't remember exactly metric designation German German cartridge began in any event I'm interrupting you left and right because I so many questions sorry yeah so the the cartridge design thing I think it was just because that was what we knew at the time like that was a way to do it you know why did radial engines get replaced by different designs and why our boxer motors not as widely accepted as like an inline or a v-shape motor and maybe that's right maybe that's not gonna be the thing in a couple years maybe were gonna have an axe you know who knows well that would be really interesting wouldn't it but that would be like a kind of a transgression almost back to a radial sort of yeah yeah so I think yeah back to the old engines that would go I really think they like the case design input was just a function of that was what we were doing at the time and so when P Oh Ackley came around and and looked at what was available especially on like an odd 6 or a Roberts case or a mauser case or whatever he was toying with at the time it made sense to him hey let's straighten that taper and pop that shoulder we can gain her five percent more powder in there and while that sounds like an insignificant amount if you look at say 260 versus a 260 actly there's a difference there it's pretty notable and if you look at say a six five by fifty five Swedish Mauser and a six five Swedish Mauser Ackley which is also I think called a six five heartthrob or something like that I said that's a monster case I mean that does a lot in a little package I just said like you know over we're talking hundreds of feet per second difference one hundred one hundred and fifty fifty in well maybe like 50 to 125 I'd have to run the numbers but look at the wisdom versus the wind Meg yeah modernize case we got shorter we got wider we got fatter we got stronger the case is literally heavier to help with pressure to allow you to drive upwards of 60,000 65 thousand psi and push your bullet faster with a smaller amount of powder I mean this just it's modern case design so the question is like are we going to be looking at this cartridge in a few years and be like look at how big it was and we're gonna be shooting something that is maybe the thing is huge yeah okay and something's gonna be a lot shorter in a lot fatter I don't know I it's hard to say the short fat revolution kind of went away quicker than I thought it would have yeah yeah and we went into more sensibly designed cases like that remember the super short mags yeah maybe so there was wisdom WSM and then there was that WSS yep correct and so those are like comical like you hold them in your hand you like look at you a chubby little critter you can only fit three of them in a magazine and they fed terribly out of a lot of minutes it's a you know we're working that thing looks like an oompa loompa yeah so we're working within the constraints what the cartridge is capable of doing not only from like a ballistic standpoint but also from a mechanical standpoint can I feed this thing out of a magazine right and so that's why we kind of Gregg jeans are huge yeah this is why we kind of gravitate back to this design or these dimensions that fairly limited if not eliminated body taper the shoulder angle the neck length in the bolt face and I think that's why these cartridges and those similar to it like the 260 are going to be indoctrinated into that Hall of Fame yeah interesting magazines remind me of like the rings rings - scopes are like magazines - ammunition and rifles because it factory they're the big limiting factor and the thing that everybody forgets about and tries to get the cheap version of but when you think about it it's the whole reason the dang thing runs and the cartridge is designed around the magazines the magazines are I mean it's like it's huge yes you can't you can't chintz out on that no shouldn't know so back on back on track maybe if we will the 65 revolution is it here to stay I think that depends on the attention span of the shooters in America especially I think and like I said with the Scandinavian and Nordic countries and and in Europe six-five is very popular and has been for a very long time yeah Swedish Mauser is older than really any vehicle driving on the road today and powered flight and it's still very very very popular if you go on some of the ammunition manufacture in Europe like Norma or RWS or Lapua you still see that as like a mainstay like yeah yep same thing with a Mauser you know those things are going to stay there forever in America are we able to hold on to the attributes and and the successes of the six five long enough or does something else come along and push swing the pendulum I attention span is not a good one so I've already kind of gotten a little bit kind of like 82 yeah yeah you know it's kind of like well yeah you can find the 65 Creedmoor under a rock somewhere which is crazy to say at this point because I still kind of remember when it was a little bit like a little boutique but like I got you know I got my my browning BLR I got that and I got in a 308 so I digressed back in time back to a time when people were just from stuff and rifles shooting at each other the gigantic line you can put anything down the barrel nuts bolts or anything yeah it's it's and then I also got another little something that's new that I think mark is really gonna like so but I'm gonna save that one for another podcast we'll talk about it I think it deserves its own very interesting but a 65-degree don't say that much we can't cut this short yet we still have time what else do we got a question can I ask a question please so it seems like lakes if we keep going back to 65 greed that's your baseline right yep and we keep going bigger stronger faster how fast can we get this bullet how fast can we get this bullet you know you get all the way up to like something like 65 300 or the 26 Nosler or even the new six five rpm seems like a really really cool sexy cartridge but also like what that then you hear guys a little barrel life you're gonna shoot it out yes you know and maybe from maybe it's like that depends on the application right Oh correct yeah so if you have a if you have a hunter that might shoot two boxes of ammunition a year that individual has a lifetime rifle if you have a shooter like a PRS shooter and this is this is two very very very different things I guess it's you know if you have a PRS shooter that's changing a barrel a season it's not practical to go with the cartridge like a 26 Nosler or it's not practical to go shoot long-range shooting competitions in which year round counts are into the hundreds potentially with a cartridge like that one you're going to exhaust yourself from a financial standpoint because the ammunition is very expensive and then to you will shorten the life of your gun use ibly if that doesn't bother you yeah go for it it's very flat don't have to worry about win that much is that the is it the barrel and the what's the the throat as well part of it yeah I mean this is all-encompassing so that if we say we're burning a throw it out we're burning a barrel out okay same thing yep interchangeably yes so no you know I'm not gonna recommend somebody buys a super Magnum six five whatever to go shoot our vortex extreme match just because how many hundreds of rounds are you looking to get out of your gun because it is a different and measurable thing like you you can't expect we just retired in March I guess just it's coming up on a year now we retired one of our test rifles for the range certification program chambered in six five was it that old tan and green camo thing no that one still shoots nothing is a hammer thing weighs 10 tons and it has been around vortex since the donkey ass creation we retired a tikka t3 CTR not because it shot bad but we went from reasonably expecting three tenths of a minute of angle out of these guns to seeing about 1/2 to 3/4 minute of angle when you put the chronograph on it we started seeing some spikes and the question was okay could we strip it down to bare metal kind of start over and see what it would do yeah maybe we figure we had between fifty five hundred and fifty seven hundred rounds down that barrel amazing yeah and it shot great and we're tracking the the next two that are in line they're right around 2,700 right now as the last time I checked each one of them consistently the guys are putting up tenth 2/10 3/10 minute groups with them I don't think you're going to have that expectation if you have a car like a 26 Nosler like but it wasn't designed to do that this isn't around that right we're shooting high-volume it's a race engine correct yeah yeah like a MotoGP bike yeah you take it out when it's time to take it out and kick some ass yep and then you put it away when you start your daily driver No correct and and the expectation should be that what is it right the expectation shouldn't be that your your MotoGP bike is gonna be the one that you cruise around all summer on yeah you race it it's thrashed after you build it but it's a good consideration right it's a very that's a very good point if you're looking at a 65 what are you looking to do with it some cartridges are going to be very good at that thing that you're looking for and very good at or not very good at other things like if you want on uber flat shooting 65 you're not concerned about recoil and you're not concerned about barrel life because you're a hunter a 6 5 300 Weatherby or as 26 Nosler is a great option if you think you're going to spend as much time possibly more time on the range ring in steel and punching paper at distance the 65 Creedmoor or a to 60 or 65 by 47 lapua is a much better option it will do both maybe not to the degree of efficiency that or I'm not gonna use efficiency but like to the degree of what's the word I want like severity on game Orlov ality and ok at a twenty six nozzle or six five 300 Weatherby will you know so there's some give-and-take make your choice based on your application you know one in your opinion do you start to step away from kind of like that just shoot ability just that easy shooting rifle when you when you start you know gravitating away from you know like the 260 the 65 Creed you or do you ever step away from hers so I I mean I do do you have you have some rifles really like I hate shooting that thing but I'll shoot it if I have to absolutely 300 Weatherby I've got an old I've got an ultra-light in 300 Weatherby and I hate shooting that right it is like it is like lightning lightning it's a difficult rifle to shoot I don't shoot it half as good as I shoot my six five right hunting rifles but I shoot it good enough that like to the ranges that I will ethically engage a game animal it gets the job done Chloe okay I feel like I feel like I feel like what you're doing is you're taking away some accuracy likely a little bit of a flinch comfort in order to just make something dead whereas if you were shooting something more accurately like you said earlier accuracy improves your efficacy on big-game can-can there's a couple limiting factors like bullet construction and Mark and I have first hand running two bullet construction issues before explain so the bullet construction thing is a huge one for me because I believe that a lot of people will glom on to a cartridge or even a caliber designation I'm going to pick on 65 because this has happened to me on a number of occasions surface cartridge and this is not taking away from any manufacturer or anything like this this was my I guess getting bewildered or starry-eyed over my ability to shoot a cartridge real well and then I guess my expectation on how a bullet performs when it goes through a creature so shooting these new high B C because again we get enamored and starstruck by that term that BC folks are buying bullets off of shelves simply based on their BC values yes or they're arguing over the effectiveness of a cartridge based on the BC value and that is an important factor but it and this is my opinion I don't think it's as important to factor as all at construction things I will not do now we're talking hunting yes yeah and I hunt way more than I I'm PRS shooter I'd not appear I shoot right that's not a thing right I don't want to shoot a bullet designed for exceptionally smooth transitioning through air currents for impact on Steve to hear a ping I want to shoot a bullet that is designed to go through a front shoulder and then the ribs behind it and then go through the soft tissue and then go through the other set of ribs behind it and then go through the other off shoulder like to me that is a successful hunting bullet that is what I am after I want to destroy bone structure so one I have a has diminished a timeframe in which that animal goes from dead to ally or alive to dead I want it you know like so yeah and then to well that's going to prevent me from having to call in the hounds and try to find a game animal that maybe I got a flap injury on and if we go back and in it was the reloading podcast at the start of the reloading podcast in which we talked about how we got into reloading I got into reloading because of a 243 and a poorly selected bullet not a poor bullet but a poorly selected bullet and I shot a doe I tail with a 243 and a bullet there was not frangible but design to fragment extremely quickly it was designed for like predators and varmint hunting and that was a massive oversight on my behalf it has nothing to do with the bullet manufacture more or less would happen the bullet hit and I'll call it a flap injury kind of gettin aided on the shoulder of the animal if I would have been like three inches back of that shoulder I think that thing would have folded like a five dollar ten what but I shoot shoulders because they can't run if they don't have running gear and there's there's a lot to be said for that breaking down the skeletal structure of an animal as well as taking out its you know pumper and well I think it's also important to remember you're not always getting the broadside shot nope you might have a quartering to shot you might have a quartering away shot either way in my again I think we probably share the same opinion do but you want that bullet to be able to drive through through and through yeah and not and not hit and end up somewhere squishy where it should have been somewhere hard or vice versa and so I've had with the 65 Creedmoor Jacket separations from core and had very poor penetration because of those shot angles and then on heavier animals at relatively close distances and again this is this is taking for granted my ability to shoot well and then possibly not matching my bullet construction to my expectation I had a 6-5 Creedmoor impact on a mule deer then I did not hit bone on the way in nor on the way out the bullet did not penetrate any deeper than the muscle tissue on the off shoulder so I didn't even make it to the hide it was very large deer but I'd also didn't touch bone and the bullet only weighed about 35 to 40 percent of what it did when it started now the animals dead so does the question it was edible of failure I don't know I also didn't have any blood if it was a little further back you know today you know where do you start drawing the lines of well that was a successor that was a failure had I been shooting a better constructed bullet in that same caliber and I had I hit bone wouldn't it would have been a moot point I'd have broken the shoulders and I think would have tipped over and I'd have been it I'd have been pleased as punch but bullet construction is a big thing a lot of these high BC bullets are designed to fly very well yeah over long distances but they give up something on the short end and that's the ability to control the rate of expansion and have weight retention now on a flip side though I mean you can have that bullet go in and maybe it comes apart you know to some degree or some level and it dumps all its energy and the animal collapses potentially went to bighorn sheep smack their heads together how much energy is focused on that small point on their skull just above their brain oh it's like it's like the amount of energy of like 10 Mack trucks hitting yeah Cray Olding do they explode and die no right but they stay alive right so I mean by the energy theory we they should just burst or should fly backwards you should fold or drop right sure okay and you shot a deer with your bow the other day how many foot-pounds of energy to that arrow I have no pops oh no I always make the argument because I look at these energy numbers and I say but we do kill things with arrows so so I guess no they kill in a different way they do I mean it's solved by hypoxia and blood loss and that kind of thing we're starving the brain of oxygen due to the fact that it doesn't have blood to deliver that oxygen but there's also the other factor with bullets like shocking the central nervous system or destroying bone structure that I think yes so I guess my uh my tangent there a lot of these bullets in a lot of these six fives have to cater to the fact that people have the expectation that this is a long range cartridge so even long range ball at this design to fly very aerodynamically and so yeah they need to cater like okay I think you said it I'm trying to keep up they need to cater to people's expectations yes the tricky part is a lot of these bullets lack integrity at close range I would say for myself the range in which I'm engaging animals more often than not zero to 300 correct and so if we're shooting a pretty heavy critter will just say elk and moose and I know people who have shot matchable it's quote match bullets and elk and crunch them folded them so I'm not saying it doesn't work I'm saying it would be my first choice because like you said mark when we get into tricky angles when we get into bone structure when we get into heavy hide you killed a moose last year they are thick with two sees man larger mammals yes is a bullet designed with a light jacket not made to penetrate heavy bone and high the best choice for that application my opinion it does not however that bullet flies really well through the air allows you to deliver payload on target actually works better in controlling its rate of expansion at long range the boss yeah yeah and so this is a whole thing because at longer range it's not delivering as much power which would then go into just completely small iterating it correct so actually by going slower it keeps itself together better than when it's going just sir pity's er faster then it just kind of hit something in yep so the trade-off is you shoot a heavily constructed bullet that requires a large amount of velocity to initiate mechanical expansion allowing you to break bones and pass through the other side of the animal that's what you use when you're gonna be shooting something closer up the fury home theory yeah versus a bullet that does not do does the opposite of that a short range but does it at the long range well are we hunting long range are we hunting short range I don't know how to make that determination well you know in case in point when I was having black tails back home hmm right I was anticipating shots anywhere from 20 yards potentially 600 yards right that was kind of I guess my yeah pecks become my comfort zone as far as like and six would definitely be on the outside of what I wanted they're not big deer you know what I mean um so I guess you know I was having a mental tug-of-war yeah of what bullet do I want to shoot I think the answer shoot him with a 45 caliber vasomotor seen it done you make a good point that was a very dead deer now mark on that deer was there a question mark when you were starting to cut the thing apart as to how bullets traverse the body cavity yes yep and that's a real thing and so with the 65 revolution speaking to it we want these slippery bullets because they shoot good far and they're nice to shoot we gotta take into consideration bullet construction when applying it to a game animal cuz there's a different thing I'll go out and shoot steel I shoot steel at 400 meters with my 22 sure who cares I wouldn't shoot a rabbit at 300 meters of my 22 because I think it's unethical yeah I might hit it I might even hit it in the grape and I've got a dead rabbit for the pot but I'm not gonna do that because now we're talking about killing something this is the only thing about the 65 thing that I'm a little worried about is bullet construction or available projectile styles and then the expectation because of what this series of cartridges is capable of long-range what's your favorite six five bullet to go out and hunt with 127 green barnes lrx it's so interesting that you'd say later wait bullet but it's longer it's made out of solid copper okay I have not killed anything with the Hornady gmx which follows along the same lines homogeneous bullet design so solid alloy as a jacket nope it's one piece of metal my hunting partner has killed stuff with the GMX and much with my experience with the Barnes bullets it is like lightning and for a for taking quartering away or quartering on or what I don't we call it a structural shot on a game animal a homogenous bullet design will always be the best choice because you will get the best penetration the balance though is you will get outside of that Ray or you can get outside of the range of which that bullet can reliably mechanically expand that's where a lighter constructed bullet like a Hornady LDX pulls away mm-hmm because it can do that at a lower velocity okay yeah I haven't shot anything at extreme distance so really at too great of distance with those GM X's but I've got the 165 and my 300 short and it has been I don't quite Andy I hit like a death ray I to look back at the number of critters it has but I finally recovered my first arns TTS ex from a game animal and I'm like 20 to 25 critters deep in the barns design finally recovered one and it was he was bedded facing me and I hit ribs I hit like three ribs on the way in kind of a raking shot I hate the spine twice and I recovered it in between like where the spinal cord would run down the vertebral column inside of a vertebra like nestled in there in between his hips so I punched him just in front of the shoulder and that ended up there and it lost exactly one grain of weight one grain of weight which is that within the threshold of variance when it just came I know the plastic I know the plastic tips on those bullets weigh about a green Wow so I asked this yeah what so it's thought you said some 127 out of the six fives won $27 X what is your velocity on that so like them and this goes back to why we make bigger cases to this good tie-in differing opinions from different people 1600 feet per second is the line to draw what do you mean so after 1,600 feet per second on a heavily heavily constructed bullet like that that's where you start getting along keep potentially Oh with expansion mm-hmm mm-hmm so in you actually wait so what is the velocity 3 we'll just say 3 grand really 29 in change so it's moving quick hmm oh you're saying once it dips below 1,600 that's where it starts losing its some of its where do you start to what yardage are you dipping below that 1600 threshold I have to look at the paperwork which I have computer this um I gotta admit that I haven't thought of much before you know but you go into the ammo section at a store and you just look at the shelves and I just you know a lot of people they just look for the box that's got a deer face on it yep and you just think that's what I want to kill it's not actually weird when you think on this box anyway but you think that you know and you just go okay cool I guess they say it kills deer so it must kill deer I've never looked at what it's made out of how its constructed I got to be very honest and I don't think I'm the only one I know that probably sounds like I guess to be honest I guess I haven't done you know a ton of hunting and when I have probably I think a lot of times I'm borrowing a rifle and you know so you don't really know but it is important to consider that that is ultimately the thing that is going to be punching whatever it is that you're gonna be putting down so you should think about what its how its constructed right so about six to seven hundred yards depending on the elevation fantastic right so you're well within but but like that sixteen hundred foot per second threshold is you're like flirting with disaster I know people personally that have taken critters way farther than that and recover the bullets and they look exactly like they do in the magazines you pull them off like wow that is quintessential performance so I'm not gonna shoot that that far so that's why I'm very happy with that projectile design it's got to be pretty much yeah yeah absolutely I mean relatively it's not as flat as a super slippery bullet but what do you know what the off the top your head what the BC is on that bullet so let me run it for the 308 here real quick just I know this is a 65 talk but this is easy for me to do BC is very low at 0.35 old oh well yep and then there's a point where BC can't overcome or can't be overcome by velocity right right so we can get we get a hit on target with less adjustment because we've upped the velocity that's like mark when he just asked Haiti to try forcing it [Music] step one holy crap can't get this bolt off did you use the impact yeah so this goes back to why do we go with a larger case in a 6'5 projectile well maybe we want to shoot a bullet with a particular characteristic like let's say the Hornady gmx or the barnes lrx or even not Nosler zac you bond which is not a homogenous design they got a bone called an e tip that is to extend the effective range of that bullet yeah and that's a big consideration for making sense now it's a consideration for me it actually makes sense now yeah usually I'm like the swirling really going sense but yeah that's why interesting now I get okay huh well it's I wish I knew how to sum it up but you just summed it up so I probably need to say anything else but it's like bullet selection can determine also which cartridge you find you're using yep I don't think if you look at all the cartridges on this list that we have or you crack open your favorite reloading manual or you google available six point five millimeter cartridges I don't think there's a bad one on there for really anything so long as you're matching the application appropriately yeah right because if we can take a 50 BMG case and knock it down to 65 Creedmoor I don't think that's a good idea for a number of reasons but that's that's not what we're dealing with don't tell me what to do right well yeah I don't think there's a bad one on there but really look at what you're trying to do oh yes the 50 Creedmoor hasn't been done it fires a loaded 65 project haha we'll be kings I don't know berrak neck down the 52 416 they shortened the case up too so it was a 400 green hi BC solid at 3,000 feet per second that states supersonic to just shy of 3,000 yards my goodness yeah that's that's for putting the holes in twit engine blocks isn't it yeah not far away before our engine block Wow yeah so as a lot maybe will summon up yes should I put you on the spot please outside I'm the 65 creed pick a 65 on this list or age 65 Oh any yeah anyway okay so I'm going to say that this is for mule deer on down because I like it I'll explain what's up from you deal mule deer for example elk and moose South a moose caribou caribou I would almost price ruin the mule deer family other than the fact that you're generally hunting them in grizzly country here's that's one of the big caveat if I'm dry or flying excuse me out driving flying with my rifle and my ammunition and my pocketbook if I'm going on a hunt that's going to cost me personally that much money and for some folks that might not be a big deal if this is a hunt that you can do a shoot the rifle that you're comfortable with heck yeah brother for me if I can find an insurance policy in anything I do and I know that it's silly to say that that cartridge ensures me success because it doesn't necessarily the last thing I want to do is show up to the tundra undergunned for the cost of the whole thing plus things with T that e people know exactly not that you can't kill a bear with a 65 Creedmoor because I bet you can and I bet people have I'd like something with a little more weight and a little more horsepower behind it that would allow me to say break two front shoulders or punch through em yeah I got him off top experiment okay well no that's good what was the question judge Neil d Rhonda Oh muled you're on down yeah so I'm wanting to know what 6 5 ug is yeah so I don't know an Elk's I probably will someday it's not big on my list of things to do like it's just that you haven't chosen not to I'd I'm not gonna hunt elk with a 6 5 Creedmoor personally for a number of reasons I'm not gazillions of people do it they do I'm not gonna no no I didn't Ian shoot an elk it just someone godly distance it's very more I don't know I think he shot over the 28 does a 29 28 Sam killed a big bull I like a long ways many yards yeah now I'm not gonna do that for a number of reasons right and and those reasons are unique to me one of the biggest ones is I don't think that all its available at the velocities I can push them are the right choice so I'm gonna go up to a 7 or 30 or 33 weight but we get we told you have to pick a six-o off of this list for me for deer size game okay I have two and a half answers okay this is like asking me to pick a car it's easy to guess if I was to have any 6.5 cartridge in the world and the rifle to go along with ever made it didn't everybody made any more here's a 1903 man liquor showing our carbine it may be as you say that before it may be the absolute sexiest finest most beautiful eloquent elegant gun ever built and it was made famous by an elephant hunter so how's that for an interesting juxtaposition wmd bell they called him car emoji Bell killed more elephants with that than anything eventually got stomped out by an elephant switch to something slightly larger went to seven miles or two 303 Brit didn't stomp doubt I'll do that yep but he killed a lot of pachyderms with 156 grain round nose bullet fired from a 65 by 54 mam liquor showed our okay yep so that one of two and a half the other is a six 506 a CLE or the new 65 Weatherby rpm now I have not seen load data for the RPM from a shooter outside of of Weatherby hmm I've not held in my hands and I can't validate the claims and the six 506 AI I have but I own a 280 AI and it does things at the six 506 AI does and the six 506 a yeah I just think there's a 288 doesn't so it's like we're in this matrix right now between these two rounds and I think what you've just accurately duns explain why we have 17 million cartridges because we're just trying to find the ones that do the things that the other ones don't but then they do yeah yeah audio readers of this podcast I assure you by this time next year I will own one if not two of those six five cartridges after mentioned okay what's the half because I don't know whether it's gonna be the 65 oh that's why I there's not an additional one that's just kind of a half myth all right I got one more question yes everybody hates me right now no I know when I was talking about velocities before right and kind of burning out a barrel at what point with these six five bullets do you kind of hit that threshold of like okay this is going to be shootable I can shoot it as much as relatively speaking as much as I want whenever I want and then you go into something like hey this is just a super high speed [ __ ] cat and I'm using it for this and it's why I don't know if that needs a beep or not no I think we can actually keep explain what a [ __ ] cat is just like super fast wow wow wow anybody know hundred a [ __ ] cat but like you like I guess comparing like a six five three hundred versus like a six five Creed right like at what point have you gone from the daily driver to the race engine yes I am NOT a metallurgist so I can't speak to the resiliency of modern barrel steel with the various treatments that are in there but I think it's a hundred and forty green bullet so the bearing surfaces that you would counter on a lot of commonly placed hundred and forty green bullets had about 3,100 feet per second yeah okay as we get over that you know it's [ __ ] cat it's [ __ ] cat all right glad you said that can we make stickers 665 [ __ ] cat one shirt is gonna say you can't catch bass like this across it quote from Eric thank you Eric you can't catch bass like geese and the others gonna be [ __ ] cat with a picture of a 65 Creedmoor on it or something something well there you have it folks boom Bryan any last final closing thoughts before we sign off I think that ladies and gentlemen listening to this podcast if you're looking for a cartridge that you can shoot a lot of for not a lot of money still the 6-5 Creedmoor think it's gonna be for a very long time yeah you know we delved into a little bit of reloading adventures James you said you know what I probably wouldn't do it again no and I think this is an example of a cartridge that you couldn't have picked a better cartridge to never reload what six-five Creedmoor oh I get it because you can get it so easily and from the factory and good ammo I think for you guys and gals out there shooting mule deers antelopes and and Western whitetails anything with a 65 in front of it is going to be a great choice consider bullet construction when we talk about the ethical taking of game BAM set it all right thanks everybody you knows what you think about the 65 revolution hit us up on Instagram tell us what you think about [ __ ] cat and we'll see you next time that was a good 101 stay tuned for 102 I guess I have a great day everybody see ya Mike just that's my mark I want you to draw up a cartridge just i don't care' wow all right when you get your [ __ ] cat out when you open the box like like those key cards you know that you can send people you open them it says some you're a [ __ ] girl Woodham I wish I had six five piers 6 5 rpm to compare the action on a 65 RPM same length as yours but that's unique to Weatherby antica because your mark 5 is the same length whether it's a 30 at 6 or whether it's a 6 5 cream or which is just a standard length action they call it a standard okay so it's gonna be slightly long I haven't yet PE badly slightly longer than this alright thank you very much yeah that was a good one thanks to us I liked it yes that 65 RPM will be about to wear my fingernail was that's where the case will go till too yeah so it's just shorter than thirty at six that cartridge is to the six five out six AI as the six five cream or is to the two sixty Remington it's a more efficient case design the RPMs I would jump all over it except it's been released now for three months and I don't know a single person I can't even read about it except for gun rigs I don't add them it's killed a lot of stuff with it I'm fearful it well I and I hope this is not the case okay I'm fearful it'll be one of those cartridges that should have caught on yep I'll say this so I'm surprised I'm very surprised that it hasn't like this one of those they have come out with a package in the new Mark fives that is going to help it tremendously alright that'll wrap it up for this episode of the vortex nation podcast thanks everybody for listening hit that subscribe button so you can always stay up to date on the latest happenings over here at the vortex nation podcast you can also follow us on instagram at vortex nation podcast and everybody thanks and happy hunting and shooting we appreciate it have a good one

Channel: Vortex Nation Podcast

Views: 56,556

Rating: 4.8378377 out of 5

Keywords: Vortex Optics, Vortex, Vortex Nation, Vortex Nation Podcast, Podcast, Optics, 6.5, ammo, ammunition, bullet, calliber, cartridge

Id: d26HTpouYqI

Length: 89min 59sec (5399 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 02 2019