Marche Simpson: Good afternoon and welcome everyone to our Emory community conversation on unconscious bias. My name is Mark J. Simpson and I'm the Director of diversity and inclusion for alumni engagement with an emery Alumni Association. Marche Simpson: And raise working to engage our community by not only the year our students became alumni or their chosen career field or industry, but also our individual identities, including race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexuality, religion and all the pieces that make you you Marche Simpson: Every community conversations is a series of engagement opportunities underground. The dimensions of identity. Marche Simpson: The series will serve as a foundation for individuals and the Emory community seeking knowledge and Marche Simpson: seeking knowledge on and or looking to explore identity and it's connection to racial justice social justice and human rights. Marche Simpson: Our goal for this program is to activate the entire community to be more thoughtful about what equity and inclusion looks like for marginalized identities and take an individual action. Marche Simpson: In the many spaces that we occupy. So join us. Every first Tuesday of the month, as we navigate topics including but not limited to unconscious bias. Marche Simpson: Belonging and inclusive community. The journey to ally ship and race ethnicity and culture. Marche Simpson: To piece of housekeeping to note this presentation is being recorded and will be sent to everyone who registered Marche Simpson: Second, please type your questions in the question section of the platform below and we will get to as many questions as possible following presentation and now allow me to introduce our guests. Marche Simpson: Donna trucker is a Senior Associate Director at the Center for faculty development and excellence. She has an all teaching and pedagogy programs as well as the inclusive pedagogy initiative. Marche Simpson: And academic learning communities as accurate as adjunct faculty and Institute of Liberal Arts. She teaches special topics courses in American Studies and interdisciplinary studies such as deconstructing whiteness and was resisting racism from civil rights to black lives matter. Marche Simpson: Her publications include the CO edited volume of the Drag Queen anthology and articles titled Marche Simpson: archivist and faculty collaborative course development and provenance critical moments, a dialogue towards her Bible and transformation and the Caribbean review of gender studies. Marche Simpson: AND YOU HEARD MY GUN COCK female agency and aggression and contemporary Mac music and rap music from African American Studies research perspectives. Marche Simpson: Donna has a PhD and answer Interdisciplinary Studies from Emory University a master's in women's studies from the Ohio State University and BA in English from University of Illinois Urbana Champaign. Marche Simpson: Elena Leslie is a 2000 22,021 dance. Teaching Fellow at Emory center for faculty development and excellence, where she works in the areas and inclusive pedagogy. Marche Simpson: online teaching and learning and course design Elena is a PhD candidate and raise Department of Anthropology studying mental health interventions amongst survivors and the comer Roche regime and Cambodia, I swear I practice that before this her work. Marche Simpson: Her work has been published and Enos F knows journey of anthropology, the journey of genocide studies and prevention, the UK literary magazine Patna Marche Simpson: Remembering genocide and neck or politics since starting since first traveling to Cambodia in 2014 2004 sorry Marche Simpson: Alana's work in the country has been sponsored by the Woodrow Wilson national fellowship Foundation, the winner grant Foundation. The Blakemore Foundation, a Fulbright fellowship and Henry Luce Foundation, among others. Marche Simpson: Before coming to me, he worked as a senior research specialist and the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs and as a journalist in the US and abroad. Marche Simpson: She has an MS in global affairs from Rutgers University and a BA in political science for Brown University. Thank you both for being here. Donna Elena I'm turning it over to you. Donna Troka: Thank you so much more Shay, those were ridiculously long introduction. I'm so sorry. Donna Troka: Elena, and I definitely need to work on an abbreviated intro Donna Troka: I mean, we like, we went back, way back Elena Lesley: In the last 20 years Donna Troka: Yeah, basically. It's like, here's what I've done since I was born. Donna Troka: So thank you so much for that. That was so great. Um, I just want to thank all of you all for sharing your lunchtime with us on this cloudy in Atlanta Tuesday morning and Marshall. Thank you so much for everything you did to pull this together. Donna Troka: I know it's a hard time so we appreciate your efforts in putting this together. Donna Troka: So I'm just going to say that Elena, and I are going to kind of go back and forth. We have a PowerPoint, which I'm going to put up on my screen. Donna Troka: And we are doing this, though, we have a PowerPoint, which seems not a cat. It does not seem casual. We are in general are fairly casual presenter. So we're going to have time to stop and ask Donna Troka: Have you all asked questions. So if you have any questions like, Marsha said you can put it in the question and answer. And we will have moments in which we can address those. Donna Troka: And then all the resources that we refer to will be at the end of this Donna Troka: PowerPoint and I'll share it with Marcia, so you can have it. So if you're if you're wondering, what did they say, where was that from you don't need to write it down. Well, for provided okay so Elena. Do you want me to let me share. Let me share the share my screen really quick. Okay, so Donna Troka: When I do that, do you see the Donna Troka: Which view, are you seeing Elena Lesley: I can see your notes. Donna Troka: Okay, so let's swap displays. Okay, that's better. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So let me just okay. How's that Elena Lesley: Good just Donna Troka: Great. Okay. Take it away elina Elena Lesley: Okay. Well, today we're going to be talking a bit about the concept of unconscious bias or sometimes referred to as implicit bias. Elena Lesley: And the agenda for the presentation will be first defining bias then Donna is going to talk a little bit about the science of bias. Elena Lesley: We're going to talk and I will talk a bit about that today on the impact of bias in our spaces. And finally, different strategies that you can use to disrupt bias. Elena Lesley: The learning objectives are going to be to define the concept of unconscious bias and describe its central elements to identify types of behavior that research suggests are linked to unconscious bias and also described strategies for reducing bias. Donna Troka: Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Elena. So, as she said we're going to start out with a definition of bias. This is a pretty long definition. So I'm not going to read it to you. Donna Troka: In incompletion, but I think I'm just going to pull up kind of the most important pieces. And I also want to let you all know that. Donna Troka: Originally I was. We're in the process we being folks who do diversity work on campus. So I'm working primarily with Donna Troka: Carol Henderson, the Chief Diversity Officer to create kind of a glossary of terms of how we how we define things at Emory. Donna Troka: And we worked on that. But then in the process. Got a new president president vendors and so we're still working with him to Donna Troka: refine those definitions. So that's why the definition. I'm using is from another institution. It's from my alma mater. The Ohio State University. Donna Troka: So bias defined implicit bias refers to the attitudes or stereotypes that affect our understanding actions and decisions in an unconscious manner. Okay. Donna Troka: And what's important to understand that these attitudes are stereotypes that impact us are activated in voluntarily right that's the unconscious or Donna Troka: implicit part of it, and often it's without your awareness. Right. So it's not something that's kind of at the front of your brain. It's something that actually Donna Troka: Will talk a little bit about where in the brain. It actually resides, but it's it's things that the way I describe it kind of pop up at the back of your brain and you're not even sure how they got there. So it's in the subconscious and Donna Troka: Because it's in the subconscious and it's unconscious. You can't just kind of access it through introspection. Donna Troka: I think the other thing that's important to understand is that oftentimes these associations that we harbor in our, in our subconscious. Donna Troka: Lead us can cause us to have feelings or attitudes about other people based on characteristics such as race, ethnicity, age appearance. Right. Donna Troka: And I think this is the most important part of it is that where these come from is through our Donna Troka: Socialization education. So what they're calling here as direct and indirect messages being the way in which Donna Troka: Folks were talked about in our families, in our schools in our cultures in our countries, right. Donna Troka: And so in this definition. Also they talked about the importance of kind of the media and news program as well. Right. So I see that as part of our kind of socialization and also education. Donna Troka: Okay, so that's that's what we mean we're talking about bias. It's a long definition. But hopefully you get the gist of it. Okay, so let's talk a little bit. And again, y'all we're together for you know now less than an hour. So this is a pretty quick. Quick overall Donna Troka: Discussion. So if you want to talk more about this offline lane I are happy to do that. Donna Troka: So the work that we're talking about this. We're unconscious bias resides in a part of the brain called the amygdala, right. Donna Troka: So this is also understood is like the reptilian brain. And so this part of our brain. What it's utilized for us. It helps us to categorize. I mean, our brains in general. Help us to categorize right Donna Troka: And so when we met with someone new. We are immediately going to try and categorize them. This is what the work. Our brain is doing. Donna Troka: And so what we know from research done on this part of the brain is that that we gravitate toward likeness. So when we meet someone, we immediately categorize Donna Troka: Are they like me or are they not like me and and because we are all folks with intersection identities that could mean Donna Troka: Someone could be like you in one way and not like you in another way, but just understand that oftentimes that we gravitate toward lightness. Donna Troka: If they are unlike you, what what our brain has taught us is that you need to proceed with caution. Right. So this part of the brain is also the fight or flight fight or flight brain part of the brain that Donna Troka: I mean, originally was used to keep us alive. Donna Troka: So you take in the data of what the people that you're seeing are they like me, are they not like me, Should I proceed with caution. Should I not. And also you're going to connect that to data. Donna Troka: Like something that you already have. Right. So, Elaine is from Oregon, I met her, and I might say, Oh, right. She reminds me of this other person I know from Oregon. Donna Troka: That's kind of a silly example but you get the sense of what how we're hooking it back to things that we already know. Donna Troka: And then also our brain uses these kind of shortcuts. Right. Oh, she's that so she must be this or he's that he must be this. And that's the place where we can see prejudices come in or these biases biases come in. Okay, so that is like a total drive by Donna Troka: Understanding of the science of bias. Alright, let's I'm going to stop sharing. Well, I guess I can't really see the people, so I'm not going to stop sharing what questions do you have, and hopefully Alina. You can see the questions. Elena Lesley: Yeah, I'm not here, and I want to say if people would like to type their questions in the chat. You're welcome to do that. I don't know if people have the ability to speak out. Donna Troka: I don't, I bet they don't because it's webinar. Okay. Elena Lesley: And also, I was just going to point out that one of the interesting things about this idea of unconscious bias is that as Donna was sort of describing. We often think of bias in a negative Elena Lesley: Respect but bias can also be positive. And that's also something to think about is, like, are you sometimes sort of unfairly giving people the benefit of the doubt or unfairly giving people advantages because you have a positive bias toward them that you're not really aware of Donna Troka: That's a great point. I had a meeting before this with a faculty developer from oil in Chicago. Donna Troka: And I wasn't sure if it was loyal in Chicago. Are you loyal in California. And when I said she said it was oil in Chicago. I said, Oh, of course. I'll help you if you're from Chicago. Right, that's where I'm from. I said, I'm showing my Illinois bias. Donna Troka: Mom Okay. Do we have any questions. Elena Lesley: So far, we don't have any questions. Donna Troka: Okay, let's move on then. And maybe the more information we give them the more folks will have questions. Elena Lesley: Oh wait, someone Elena Lesley: Oh, okay. Um, Elena Lesley: If you were raised being cautious against being biased, Julie. Elena Lesley: Taylor wants to know, is it possible you don't have bias. Donna Troka: That's a great question. I think and Elena, I'd love for you to weigh in on this as well, but my, my guess would be Donna Troka: Being raised is just one part of it. Right, so like I'm raising a almost six year old little boy right now and I'm trying to raise him to be conscious or to think about bias and to talk about Donna Troka: Identity and power and difference. But that's not the only place. He's learning. Okay. He's also in school. He also goes to his grandparents. He also watches TV. Donna Troka: Once he knows how to read. He'll be reading books. So there's, I think, unless all of those places are doing that work, which if they are awesome. I can't imagine that, but that sounds great. Donna Troka: I think it'd be hard, right, because there's, I think there's multiple layers to that. What do you think Alina. Elena Lesley: Yeah, I mean I would totally agree with that, because I think I was raised in an environment to where they're Elena Lesley: You know, my parents and a lot of the educators, I had and stuff like that tried very hard to work against bias, but I think because we are embedded in a larger society. Elena Lesley: That has certain power structures already at play that that everyone is programmed to a certain extent, to have certain biases. Elena Lesley: Then it to the question. Yeah, she wrote. Great answer. Parents are not the only influencers Elena Lesley: Yeah, absolutely. Donna Troka: Sadly, we have to release our children to other people. Donna Troka: Are actually not family because I've been with my kid for the last eight months. Donna Troka: Muslim but have had a lot of it. Okay, so Donna Troka: We have one other question. Yeah, good. Elena Lesley: Okay, how can you share with people that you think they're unconscious bias is affecting the way they do X, if the person believes they do not have bias because they do not see color. Donna Troka: Can we, I would say I think we should hold on to that. Donna Troka: I feel like we're going to address some of that. Elena Lesley: In the strategies. Donna Troka: In the later in the strategies if when we get to the strategies person who asked that question. If we don't kind of crack them up the way you want us to Donna Troka: Ask it again and we'll bring it up then. Okay, I think. Let's talk. I just want to talk a little bit first about the impact. Before we start, like fixing the problem. Donna Troka: Okay, so here is my sad picture about unconscious bias is the only thing I could find on creative comments. But let's talk a little bit about the impact of bias. Donna Troka: Okay. And I just want to make sure I'm not. Yeah, okay. Donna Troka: So we're going to talk about it in three. So what's tricky about this is Elaine and I are fact we do faculty development. So we mostly work with faculty Donna Troka: And when we talk about unconscious unconscious bias with faculty off, we're talking about it. And how about around hiring maybe in the classroom. Donna Troka: Maybe in committee work, but this is a larger Donna Troka: A larger audience. We're not entirely sure everybody who's going to be watching. So we tried to diversify, in some ways, the places that we're talking about bias. So Donna Troka: Right now I'm going to start off with the kind of work that we do normally and talk a little bit about how bias impacts. Donna Troka: It can impact hiring and this could be hiring in an academic institution. It could also be hiring in any kind of organization or corporation. Donna Troka: Okay, so the first thing I'm going to talk about is a research project it's often called the kind of Greg Jamal or Emily lucky. Donna Troka: Lucky, lucky show effect. Okay. And so in this project, what we saw, or I don't know how. Yeah, let's just call it a project, what Donna Troka: The folks did is they said identical resumes to both a Boston and Chicago labor market and the only thing was different exactly the same resumes. Donna Troka: Is the first name was Greg or the first name is Jamal, or in the case of women, the first name is Emily, the first name was like Kesha Donna Troka: And the reason why they chose these names they understood that the researchers understood this as white sounding names. Greg and Emily is white sounding names and Jamal, and the keyshia is black sounding names. Donna Troka: So the only thing that was different was the names. Okay, great. And what they found was that Greg when Greg had a criminal record. So they've made a few shifts. Right. Donna Troka: And when they found that Greg with a criminal record received more callbacks. He received 17 17% Donna Troka: Then Jamal without a criminal record. Right. So the idea is, is that there's something happening with the people who are reading these resumes that Donna Troka: That based only on name and kind of the biases. They connect to that name that that helped made it made those jobs more accessible to Greg, even when he had a criminal record than to Jamal when he did it. Donna Troka: Okay. And this, again, you'll get these PowerPoint slides. So you can look more to this article from the American Economic Review Donna Troka: Okay, another place that we see it is in letters, letters of recommendation. Another study done in 2016 and this was for a highly selective POC, a postdoctoral fellowship in geoscience. Okay. And what they did is they asked Donna Troka: People to they looked at letters of male applicants and they looked at letters of female applicants. And what they found is that Donna Troka: I mean all the letters were shining and in some ways, right, I mean these were the best of the best, but they found that the Donna Troka: Letters for the male applicants were longer AND THEY USE STRONGER LANGUAGE So the female applicants letters were shorter Donna Troka: They were solid letters, but they didn't set the participants. They didn't set the applicant apart right so the language that you would use for the male Donna Troka: Applicants were things like that. He is a brilliant scientist. He is a trailblazer Donna Troka: And for women, what they're calling kind of lukewarm language. She's knowledgeable. She's highly intelligent but she's not set. She's not set apart. That's the person you want right the trailblazer the brilliant scientist. So again, there's ways in which Donna Troka: You know, male names and female names are the ways in which gender can really impact how we recommend people right how that bias can come in. Donna Troka: And and I imagine. I mean, I know enough about this research. Donna Troka: That I've looked back at letters and now I think moving forward. I think about the letters. I'm writing for my students and like what is the language. I'm using and how can I make sure that I'm not letting that kind of unconscious bias creep into my Donna Troka: Into my recommendations. Okay. Elena Lesley: Yeah. Elena Lesley: I was just gonna say Donna then oftentimes to that women are described as being like very detail oriented and diligent. So it sort of portrays a an image of like she's a good workhorse she can follow directions but but not really a visionary, you know, Donna Troka: Right. And she'd be great to like do all that behind the scenes work. Donna Troka: But not not maybe at the front of the front of the work. Okay, so let's talk. I just want to talk a little bit about some real world effects. Okay, I'm actually just going to put all these up so that I don't have to focus on. Oops, sorry. Sorry. Okay, so Donna Troka: When we do this with a not online or maybe not with such a large group. Donna Troka: We usually show a video. The link to it is at the end of the PowerPoint slide from the New York Times. That's about bias and what they did in that research study is that they wrote letters or they wrote emails not letters they wrote emails to 4500 Donna Troka: Professors at different universities across the US. And they pretended like they were someone who wanted to be a graduate students so they were writing to ask about the department. Right. Donna Troka: Dear Professor Leslie, I'd love to know more about the anthropology department, could you please let me know and they signed those those emails with different names. Donna Troka: Names that they understood that they were calling white, black, they said, Chinese, so you know Asian South Asian, Indian Donna Troka: And let let teen or Latinx. And what they found is that the white male sounding names got more responses to the emails than all the other groups put together. So why this is important as anyone who's gone through Donna Troka: You know, the university is that who's helping you can really make a difference. Right. Donna Troka: So if I hear back from the, from the chair of the department that's going to help me know more about that department. Donna Troka: And it's also putting me in the mind of that chair right so when I'm when they're going doing admissions, they might remember my name. Donna Troka: But if someone doesn't write back to me. I don't get that kind of access. Right. So again, it's a way in which it can impact, who gets callbacks, or who gets responses. Donna Troka: Awkward body language is really important. It can influence hiring and recruiting and the way in which this is tied to bias is oftentimes we read anything that's kind of Donna Troka: Not clear to us or that what seems to be awkward as negative. Right. And it's important understand that people respond or people act differently in social situations. Some people don't Donna Troka: Make eye contact. Some people may not be comfortable shaking hands and this could just be who they are kind of their temperament, but also a lot of folks who are on the spectrum folks who are autistic or Donna Troka: Or have Asperger's may not interact socially in the way that you are used to. Right. And so that means that those people are not going to get the job because of something that you understood is awkward when actually, it's just that their brain works differently than yours does Donna Troka: How we read facial expressions is important to a lot of times, again, if you have kind of a Donna Troka: Blank slate. Right. You're, you're not smiling. You're not sad, you're just kind of looking for me. It's my kind of thinking face. Donna Troka: Is a lot of times, understood as negative. So we've got to think about the kind of biases we have about what why weren't they smiling. Does it matter. Donna Troka: If a woman isn't smiling. Does that mean something different than if a man is smiling, those kinds of things. And then also this Donna Troka: More negative evaluations when women are described as confident aggressive or ambitious right those are Donna Troka: terms that are used negatively for women, but those are characteristics for men that are seen as valuable right so if you explain someone is she was, she was really confident in her job talk Donna Troka: Right, that might have that might mean something different than if you say a male applicant was confident in his job talk right that could seem to be seen as positive Donna Troka: So again, just thinking about how our biases in these kinds of situations can really impact, who has access to resources, who has access to jobs and who is read as kind of valuable to an organization or not. Okay. Elena Lesley: This is going to be a Lena. Sure. Well, I was going to talk a little bit about K through 12 education because as Donna said we weren't exactly sure. Elena Lesley: Who was going to be attending this webinar. And we usually talk to faculty, but I thought that K through 12 education is another space. Elena Lesley: That a lot of people are actively involved in either you work in K through 12 education or you might have a child who was in K through 12 education. So these are important things to think about in these spaces. Elena Lesley: I'm Elena Lesley: Sorry, I just need to open my notes here. Elena Lesley: So there are a number of different ways that implicit bias or unconscious bias can play a role in the K to 12 environment. Elena Lesley: It could be in terms of academic evaluation discipline, which is very important screening for disability support and admission into talented and gifted programs. Elena Lesley: And I put down here also this idea of the school to prison pipeline. This is a general idea that in certain underperforming schools or or certain groups of people and under performing schools are more sort of consistently targeted for disciplinary intervention. Elena Lesley: That then becomes a pattern that can unfortunately be reinforcing throughout the life cycle. Elena Lesley: And one interesting article that I was reading is actually from the American Bar Association. Oops, I did not me. Just send that out. Elena Lesley: From the American Bar Association, and it was about the Brown versus Board of Education Supreme Court decision and some of the sort of unanticipated effects that that has had over the decades. Elena Lesley: And one of the unanticipated effects. Was that before when schools were segregated before the desegregation movement began oftentimes Elena Lesley: Black students were taught by black educators and then with the elimination of a lot of schools and the merging of student populations. Elena Lesley: Oftentimes, those educators lost their jobs and then it would be mostly white middle class educators who were teaching more diverse populations of students. Elena Lesley: Who they might not necessarily understand in the same way and might have implicit biases about or maybe would miss interpret Elena Lesley: Different behavior that the students had and I thought that was interested in terms of thinking about like the long term implications of the Brown versus Board of Education decision. Elena Lesley: And let's see, in terms of disciplinary actions. Elena Lesley: In a 2012 study. It was found that 17% or one out of every six black school children involved in enrolled in K through 12 education were suspended at least once. Elena Lesley: Compared to one in 20 for whites also then in terms of academic evaluation. Elena Lesley: A 2017 study found that math teachers perceive their classes to be too difficult for Latino and black students and English teachers perceives their classes to be too difficult for all non white students Elena Lesley: And in terms of screening for either disability support or talented and gifted programs. This can also be an issue because oftentimes teachers are the ones who are on the front line. Elena Lesley: In making these decisions about who is actually going to be screened for these kinds of additional services and a January 2016 article Elena Lesley: By the American Educational Research Association found that black and Latino schoolchildren are less likely to be screened for gifted programs in public schools than white and Asian school children. Elena Lesley: So this can be done and I have discussed before, this can begin a process of sort of tracking that starts at a very early age where Elena Lesley: Students are not getting into the talented and gifted programs and then this amplifies over time in terms of the kinds of opportunities that are available to them in the academic environment. If you go first from Elena Lesley: You know, being sort of on the, the non gifted tracked in elementary school and then into middle school and then into high school and then it's going to eventually impact, even the kind of colleges, you can apply to and the kind of scholarships, you can get and all those kinds of things. Donna Troka: And if I can just jump in for a second about this. I think what's important to that Elena's pointing out here, especially around Donna Troka: Say the gifted in this is not only about the teachers. Right. I think it's about the way in which the bias the teachers have but also the bias of the curriculum. So there's a lot of times where kids not going to be engaged in a curriculum. If they don't see themselves represented right Donna Troka: Whether that means that it's a science curriculum that shows girls that you know there's no they see no women scientists Donna Troka: They don't hear about. They don't learn about to them. Science is just something that men do, or if it's a Donna Troka: Almost entirely white curriculum, right, you're a student of color. Donna Troka: And if you're only learning about the history of white people and you don't see yourself reflected, you might be less engaged. Right. So I think that it's kind of like both sides of the desk right. Not only that, Donna Troka: We have to make sure that we're talking to teachers to make sure that they're thinking Donna Troka: broadly about what gifted means and what gifted looks like, but also how we're teaching our students what curriculum, we're using to make sure that it's got a diverse representation of people, as you know, Donna Troka: Leaders scholars engineers, those kinds of things so that kids are seeing themselves reflected in that Elena Lesley: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And right now there's been a big movement in the university environment, just sort of Elena Lesley: D canonized a number of syllabi is the idea to bring in more diverse voices and to rethink basically what what the foundational cannon is and I imagine that this is being done to some extent in different Elena Lesley: K through 12 environments as well. But that's also something to think about is how you might actually very the instructional approach and the kinds of materials being used. Great. Elena Lesley: And then I also wanted to think about other spaces that might be important to people where implicit bias could Elena Lesley: Potentially, have an impact. And one thing that came to mind was religious spaces because these are things that are not directly related to work or education, but they can nonetheless have Elena Lesley: A big impact on people's lives and the kinds of resources that they're tapped into Elena Lesley: And one interesting thing I found if you if you look back at the the studies that Donna has already talked about in terms of the emails that were sent out Elena Lesley: For a job or sort of postdoc applications and the kinds of names that were chosen and then their responses, a similar study was actually done Elena Lesley: By a sociologist at the University of Connecticut in terms of looking at Christian churches and the professor and his research team actually sent out 3000 emails to congregations. Elena Lesley: Basically from people who were supposedly moving into a new town and who wanted to become connected with the church and they varied these emails in terms of Elena Lesley: The names that they used and some of the names were white sounding names some more black, Hispanic or Asian Elena Lesley: And in this particular study, although they didn't find a big difference in the response rates for the evangelical and Catholic churches. Elena Lesley: That they sent the emails to they did have a significant difference in the response rate from mainline Christian churches. Elena Lesley: So that's something to think about going forward to is that this can be another way in which we don't have the background information. We don't know exactly why. Elena Lesley: People didn't respond to the emails, but the assumption is that there may have been some implicit bias based on the names of the people who were associated with these sort of test emails. Elena Lesley: Um, so in terms of a summary of this section of the presentation on the impact of bias. Elena Lesley: These kinds of implicit biases as as Don and I both said are pervasive pervasive. Everyone has them, we think, you know, Elena Lesley: That people have them, even if they try hard to be conscious of the biases that they have and that, as in the example of children. Elena Lesley: You know, even if you're trying to raise your child in an environment with very few biases. They're exposed to the broader society. And so there's only so much that you can do about that and control that. Elena Lesley: The biases that people have don't necessarily correspond with their declared beliefs. Elena Lesley: So we may hold. That's why it's the whole idea of unconscious bias is it's we may not think that we're biased, but still there is some sort of unconscious programming. Elena Lesley: That's going on there in terms of who we decide to help or not help or respond to. And I think this especially comes up in situations where we're pressed for time and you know Elena Lesley: It's things like job applications and responding to potential PhD students and all those kinds of things. Oftentimes you people don't have a lot of time and and we're all very busy and so you're kind of doing those mental shortcuts. Elena Lesley: Most of the time these biases tend to favor own in group and they can be activated in a new relationship or ambiguous situations and also they are malleable. So there are something that we can work on Donna Troka: Okay, great. So we've talked a little bit then about what we mean by bias the definition, very quickly. We talked about the science of it. And then here. We've talked about the impact in a couple different environments. So what questions you have about about that so far. Donna Troka: And I'm sorry Lena, I'm gonna have to lean on you again because I'm sorry. Elena Lesley: I just want to say there are a couple comments in the chat. Elena Lesley: Great. Okay. So, Sonia Perez una wrote that profiling and screening applications is widely common you see this in jobs school applications board memberships housing, etc. Elena Lesley: So I think that ties into everything we've been saying, and that you can think about it in in the workplace in academic environments, but also can be true in Elena Lesley: Even emails to religious organizations or other sort of civic organizations that we might be involved with. Great. Great. And then also Elena Lesley: Exactly representation matters. It's subtle but not but so important. Dr. Beverly Tatum PhD wrote a book called Why are all the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria that addresses this Donna Troka: Yeah, that's great. For a second I thought you're saying, Dr. Beverly Tatum was on this call and I Almost Elena Lesley: Oh, no. Donna Troka: It's great. Donna Troka: Okay, anything else. Elena Lesley: Yes. Um, there's a question. Is there any work relative to the field of epigenetics to understand our full range of biases. Oh gosh. Donna Troka: That's a great question. Elena Lesley: That is a great question. Donna Troka: I'm not sure I have the answer. So Donna Troka: Because of time, I'm going to say, I'm not sure, but I'd be happy if you were going to give you our emails at the end. I'd be happy to have an offline conversation with you about that. And then when we do find Donna Troka: Some useful resources on that, then I can give it to Marcia, and she can circulate it and or maybe we have like an EPA geneticist. It's hard to say on the on the webinar right now and they can chime in as we go along. Elena Lesley: That would be awesome. Donna Troka: Yeah yeah Elena Lesley: I mean this is on the call. Donna Troka: I know. I mean, it's possible. Right. Well, I mean, there could be someone from the front, along with me that that does that. Okay, anything else. Elena Lesley: Yeah. Marcia had a couple questions. Donna Troka: Okay, great. Elena Lesley: She went to know was there a difference between letters written by males versus women females. And also, do you know if there is a bias against bilingualism in this space. Donna Troka: Meaning bilingualism just in person to person relationships or someone saying they're bilingual on a resume. Elena Lesley: Yeah. Marcia if we could get some more clarification on that. That'd be great. Donna Troka: And to answer the first question. I think if I'm correct, if I'm remembering correctly. I don't think there was difference, right. I don't think there is difference between Donna Troka: Letters that and let me also just say that we're using these binaries of, like, male and female, and I'm well aware that there are people who don't fit into those binaries. But unfortunately much of the resource research isn't okay so Donna Troka: So just I want to kind of give a little shout out to that but Donna Troka: I think that there wasn't much difference between letters written by, say like, if you're writing a letter for students. So male professors and female professors Donna Troka: And so, again, I think there's a way in which that reiterate that even when it's when we're kind of like working against our own in group right so like for me as a woman, writing a letter recommendation for a female student, if I'm still like kind of Donna Troka: Replicating these biases. I'm doing damage to someone who's in the same group as me. And part of that is because that is Donna Troka: Culturally, that is what I was exposed to. Right. These are the ways we talked about women. These are the ways we talked about men. These are positive aspects for women. These are positive. Donna Troka: Aspects for men. So I have kind of, you know, absorb that even if I I'm trying to work against that there's a way in which Donna Troka: My brain has absorbed it. So again, we said there at the end that these things are malleable. You have to, you have to constantly be working at it right so Donna Troka: Write the letter when I'm you know in a rush right, I've got about 30 minutes to my next meeting. I'm gonna write this recommendation letter. Donna Troka: Right then. Wait, go to the meeting, come back and then go look through, how did I describe her right that's the work right. That's the kind of like de biasing or taking kind of Donna Troka: audit of the way in which I'm describing her or him or the student to make sure that I'm not kind of maintaining some of these tropes that can be damaging to the person Elena Lesley: And so in terms of this question of bilingualism marshy I was asking about person to person. And then another audience member asked about bilingualism in K through 12 Elena Lesley: I mean I what I can say about my personal experience with dealing Elena Lesley: With students who might not be native English speakers is that I do think that it works against them. And that, I think that I tried to be very careful and I know Elena Lesley: Some professors who were more and less careful about this. Elena Lesley: I don't think that the usually the idea of knowing another language is the problem. I think that some lack of bit of proficiency in English can be sort of doubling or tripling counted against people Elena Lesley: In grading and those kinds of things. And so sometimes I try very hard. If I know that someone is an international student or a non native English speaker to Elena Lesley: take that into consideration and to really try to take off. Maybe I'll just take off one point for all the grammatical errors and that sort of thing in the essay and then Elena Lesley: Focus more on the ideas and and try to sort of tease those out as opposed to just focusing on the fact that there are grammatical or typographical errors. Donna Troka: Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of Gerald Wing Sue is one of the leading writers about micro aggressions and in what he talks about a category of like forever for in this right, this idea of, like, where are you from, Donna Troka: Know where are you really from that kind of stuff. So I think that that oftentimes English language learners are understood as kind of foreign and therefore would be understood as more work. Right. I mean, a lot of this what your brain is doing is it's kind of trying to Donna Troka: Sort of protect you and your time. So what may be happening in the brain that is like if you see someone who Donna Troka: You might think, oh, that's going to take a little bit of extra work right. I mean, as far as like in the K through 12 and this is not based on research. It's based anecdotally Donna Troka: I do see the ways in which students that are English language learners where English is not spoke is not the first language spoken at home. I think they do have to navigate things Donna Troka: More that are more difficult than students who were English as their first language and that is what spoken at home right Donna Troka: So everything that comes from the administration. If it's not translated into the language that your parents speak. That means either the child has to do that translation or you just miss out. Donna Troka: Right. I mean, this is something that I've been working my students, my son's classes school is fairly Donna Troka: Diverse, and you know, I realized that we were getting all these flyers that only in English. And I was like, what about people who don't speak English. And so now, everything's you know in multiple languages so Donna Troka: Yeah, I don't think it's like I would actually argue in this moment, as we move towards a much more diverse demographic in the United States, you know, being someone who speaks multiple languages works for you. But again, Donna Troka: I'm thinking we still live in a country where the systems aren't built them aren't necessarily built for that. Right, that's Donna Troka: Correct always as kind of a positive sentiment negative. Okay, let's, let's go. We're a little bit over. Oh, nowhere. We got 20 minutes. Okay, let's move on to what we can do. Donna Troka: Okay, so what can we do, and we're going to split this right. I think Lena yes okay so Donna Troka: Alright, so there's there's a lot of things we can do, but the three we're going to talk about today. And the first two are going to be kind of quick Donna Troka: And then we're really going to focus on the third, but there is a lot of research. So on bias. So, you know, looking at kind of which parts of our brains are activated. Donna Troka: When when met with something that when we're thinking Donna Troka: Like when biases in play, right. So, you know, you could offensively, go get an fMRI, most people can't but just I want you to know that there are ways that there's, there is research and there continues to be research to really think about how the brain works. Donna Troka: And are there and ways to kind of short circuit those processes so that we can move towards less biased, but I don't think that most people are gonna be able to do that. The second is, and maybe some of you have heard about this. Donna Troka: There's a test called the it tests or the implicit association test. This is a test that was created at Harvard, many, many years ago and it's kind of had revisions. Donna Troka: A lot you can you can just Google it. You'll find it. It's free anyone to use Donna Troka: And what it really does is it I mean exactly what it says. It kind of measures the ways in which your brain associate certain things with certain words certain representations Donna Troka: How to ideas are connected. So what it does is it gives you images and it gives you words and it asks you to use like two keys on the keyboard that don't really make sense. And you have to just say, Donna Troka: You know, good goes with white or good goes with black and you'll see an image that kind of Prime's your brain to make those connections and you have to do it as quickly as possible, right. Donna Troka: So it's that time crunch again that we talked about, you know, whether it's looking at applications or, you know, for housing or for job. Donna Troka: The time crunch is what's supposed to make your brain just like this is what I think this is what I think this is what I think. Donna Troka: So if you're interested in bias and maybe finding out what biases, you hold this is one place you can go to is the it tests and they have test for lots of different identity categories race, you know, race, gender, sexuality, nationality body size. Donna Troka: Disability all kinds of things. So it's, you know, if you've got free time say over the holidays. Maybe you could take a couple of those Donna Troka: And then now we want to talk. This is kind of like the the the part that getting to answer that earlier question. So what are some strategies that we can use to disrupt biases and I think Lena, you're going to do these right yes oh but they're cool. Yes, slow release. Okay, here we go. Elena Lesley: Right, exactly. Donna Troka: Okay, so Elena Lesley: So one strategy is to mask the race, gender, or other social identity characteristics of applicants, if that's possible, whether this is applicants for an academic position or for jobs or as we mentioned, for Elena Lesley: Different kinds of civic organizations and we have here the example of Symphony Orchestra auditions. This was an article. Sorry. This was a study that was actually done by two economists Elena Lesley: And they found that, and it was actually two female economists, they found that in screened Symphony Orchestra auditions, if Elena Lesley: If the people audition behind a screen and it was not clear what their sort of demographic profile was or if they were women or men that women actually were selected more more frequently than they were in the non screened auditions. Elena Lesley: You can commit in advance to specific merit criteria and rank ordered their importance before reviewing applications. Elena Lesley: And be wary of ideas of sort of fit chemistry and collegiality as criteria. I was joking with Donna that fit is like one of the most vague descriptions ever of why someone does or doesn't get a position that's like, Oh, you weren't the right fit. Elena Lesley: Kind of means like in our subjective opinion. We just didn't like you Elena Lesley: Like you Donna Troka: Right. Right. And oftentimes that bit means like you're like us. Yeah. Donna Troka: So, Elena Lesley: Going to the same schools. Donna Troka: Right or everybody Donna Troka: You're extroverted like me and I like that. Yeah, so I mean exactly, that's not that's not a reason to hire someone Elena Lesley: Reduce time pressure and distraction during evaluation processes allow time for reflective rather than reflexive decisions. Elena Lesley: Now this is difficult for all of us. Right, and I think this is, as I said, I think this is one of the main ways that that bias comes into our lives even if we're Elena Lesley: Trying not to be biased, is the fact that we're always just under time pressure. And so we're trying to make fast judgments. Elena Lesley: And so I liked the, the strategy that don't I mentioned before about, you know, for example, I just try to put things aside and then come back and revisit them. Elena Lesley: You know, so you can do a bit of an audit before you send out that letter of recommendation or, or, you know, anything else that you're working on. Elena Lesley: You structured interviews with standardized standardized questions rather than unstructured conversation in things like job interviews and think about whether you've given everyone the same consideration of context and circumstances. Elena Lesley: Asked for a specific feedback tied to the merit criteria discount vague assessments of candidates. Donna Troka: Right. And again, this is the kind of not just like so. So don't ask. So what did you all think about her. Donna Troka: Or what did you think about him, but instead say how do you think, how did you feel there. Do you feel that they were qualified in the area of Diversity and Equity to meet the needs of this position. Donna Troka: Because then you're asking about what their qualifications are in their experiences, not just whether or not you like you thought. They smiled enough Elena Lesley: Mm hmm. Exactly. Elena Lesley: Consciously strive to increase the representation of women of all races and people of color of all genders, where you work, so make that sort of a conscious goal. Elena Lesley: Discuss implicit biases and strive to minimize their influence on evaluations and judgments. So this is something that you can try to be transparent about Elena Lesley: As we said before, this idea that we're all programmed with certain biases and so we don't need to immediately get defensive if someone brings it up. I'm trying to have open conversations about these things and Donna Troka: Try to do that proactively rather than reactive Lee, so have that discussion with your congregation. If you're getting an influx of new people into your church or into your synagogue. Donna Troka: Try to have that conversation with your, your teachers. If you're an administrator, so that it's not reactive, but instead you're thinking about it as they move forward. Yeah. Elena Lesley: Yeah, because it's oftentimes to in a reactive situation that people are more likely to feel defensive, like, Well, I didn't mean it that way. Right. You know, Elena Lesley: Spend sufficient time evaluating each person or situation. Don't rush the process. Once again, this is difficult, but we have to try to do the best we can. Elena Lesley: Be intentional. Don't assume assume you know Elena Lesley: And ask open ended questions. Elena Lesley: Empower each other to help each other. Elena Lesley: Have other people feel empowered to call you out on your biases. Elena Lesley: This has to do with the transparency. Donna Troka: Right, and it's hard to do, especially like I'm thinking again because of where we work. If you're in a committee committee meeting looking to, you know, hire someone Donna Troka: And you're an assistant professor and the person running the committee is the chair of the department, right, it may be difficult to say, Wait, I'm not sure we can actually ask them that question. Donna Troka: But again, if you're trying to create a bias free and as a the most kind of neutral situation for that hiring committee, you need to be able to find a way. So maybe, maybe that means Donna Troka: You say something to him after the meeting and not in front of everybody. But still there's a what you have to make sure that you create that kind of environment of accountability, no matter what, what the group is the goal, the group. Elena Lesley: Mm hmm. We do have some questions. Donna Troka: Okay, great, that's, I mean that's that's it for our slide. So let's just Elena Lesley: open to discussion. I'm going to come and I thought, interestingly, one of one of the audience members wrote established trust in all capital letters. I think it's important you know yeah Donna Troka: I'm just going to show this for a second. In case you have questions, but I want us to have a larger discussion, but I'm going to stop sharing my screen. So Donna focus. Okay. Okay, great. Donna Troka: Sure. So what do we have here. Elena Lesley: Oh, okay. Actually, I realized that we have questions in the chat and the q AMP. A I didn't realize these were two different Donna Troka: Okay, so, which were you looking at chat or Q AMP a Elena Lesley: I had been looking at the chat. Elena Lesley: Okay, so, um, and so then also in the Q AMP a Elena Lesley: When an attendee wants to know, what advice do you have for volunteers that are working in communities that they are not a part of for combating bias. For example, volunteers from North Fulton County volunteering in low income schools in South Fulton Donna Troka: So what what say that beginning of it again. Elena Lesley: Sorry, what advice do you have for volunteers that are working in communities that they are not a part of for combating bias. Donna Troka: Um, Donna Troka: Well, I mean, I think anytime. Anytime that you're working in a community, you should be building relationships and partnerships with people that are in that community. So I think that's, you know, I would just say like at the get go. So if Donna Troka: I mean, I don't know exactly what the specific context is but talking to them about getting a sense of how they do things and then Donna Troka: You know, if you can, in a way that doesn't seem like you're taking over just say, You know, I'm really Donna Troka: noticing how people keep Miss gendering a couple students Donna Troka: And I just want to make sure that we're having discussions around that. So do you all have any training around that and if not, I'd be happy to find Donna Troka: You know, to put together a conversation that we could have. Right. So one is not kind of coming in and taking over and then to a willingness to show that you're willing to work to help that community think through their biases in a way that doesn't seem threatening. Donna Troka: And isn't onerous to them. That makes sense. Elena Lesley: Yeah, definitely. Elena Lesley: And then let's see we have another question. Elena Lesley: I like the idea of masking race and gender in applicants for jobs, but we are also supposed to be seeking diverse candidates. Elena Lesley: Which can sometimes be surmised by seeing someone's name or looking them up online. How do we accomplish both seeking diversity and dealing with bias. I think that's a great question. Actually, yeah. Donna Troka: Yeah, I mean, that is true. Like I feel like between Google and Facebook. You can learn a lot about a person right Mm hmm. Donna Troka: Well, Donna Troka: Elena. Do you have ideas. Elena Lesley: I think it would depend on sort of each hiring committee, you know, and what the goals are, in terms of that committee because yeah i mean i think that that is Elena Lesley: Those are two different strategies that you can use and you can't mask, all of the the race and gender and all these things of the applicants and then at the same time also be specifically trying to seek diverse applicants. Elena Lesley: So I think that it would probably be a conversation that would, that you would need to have in that individual hiring committee in terms of what your goals are. Donna Troka: Yeah, and I think it would be probably more than one conversation, right. So I think you'd have to have a conversation with the group. Donna Troka: Okay, folks. So this is what we're looking for. We're looking for someone with these competencies. We're hoping to meet these goals. We want him to run these programs. Donna Troka: We, you know, we're also looking to diversify our department based on race and gender. Donna Troka: And disability. I'm just making this up. Donna Troka: So I just want all those things kind of on your shoulder as you're reading it, but then also I think each individual I mean I'm going through a hiring committee right now. And each person. Donna Troka: There's things I'm drawn to them. And I'm like, am I drawn to them because they're going to be the best person for this job. Donna Troka: Or am I drawn to them because they're like me, you know, whether it's like they're an academic or their white woman or whatever do you mean. So it's this kind of like larger conversation, I think. And then also, like a personal reflection. Again, thinking about Donna Troka: And being very clear about the expectations we want x y AMP z and who gives us x y AMP Z. But then you also have to think about, you know, not everybody has the access Donna Troka: That everyone has equal access. Right. So if you're a university that only values. Other people who come from Ivy League universities. Donna Troka: Right, you're leaving out all these folks who went to state schools right Donna Troka: And some people went to state schools because they wanted to go to state schools. I went to state school, but some people want to stay schools because they couldn't afford ivy League's right so just thinking, I mean, you've got to be thinking of this kind of like longer historical trajectory Donna Troka: And how, you know, when you think about like pipelines and why they get leaky Donna Troka: So it's kind of like, I think it would be kind of multi modal approach. Elena Lesley: Yeah, I also wonder if you could sort of divided into a multi stage process somehow Elena Lesley: You know what I mean like in in one stage of the application reviews, you do or don't mask. These qualities of the applicants and in another stage you have those available or if you divide the committee, even into different groups and Elena Lesley: One one group works with sort of the de identified applicants and the other group doesn't work. Like I said, or you either don't have that information available at first, or you bring that information into play later on. I don't know. Interesting. Donna Troka: Um, Elena Lesley: Let's see. Also, what's your advice for rectifying a wrong. Once you realize that you have said or done something wrong or offensive. Donna Troka: I mean, I think. Donna Troka: Okay, so I think that for most humans when you've done something wrong, whether it's, you know, whether you said something offensive or you Donna Troka: Miss gendered someone your immediate response is this happens, I've cut I've recently cut my hair once coven started because I can't deal with it. So, Donna Troka: If I'm wearing a hoodie or something. I'm getting called sir, a lot more right and I don't. It doesn't even faze me right but when someone calls me, sir. Donna Troka: And then I get to the thing and they look at you know they realized my name is Donna or whatever and then they're really a few. I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Right, so that is because you feel like you've done something wrong. And there are people who would be Donna Troka: Upset about being Miss gendered I'm not one of them. Right. So I think instead Donna Troka: If someone correct you on something rather than apologizing, because then, what's, what's the expectation. If you say, I'm sorry. Your expectation is they'll say it's okay. Donna Troka: Right instead just saying thank you thank you for correcting me on that right in that situation, I guess they're not not in all situations. So would you be corrected. Donna Troka: It would be more that you said something and then you realize it on your own that you said it is that is that how you would read it, Elena Elena Lesley: Mm hmm. Yeah. No, I like that idea. Donna Troka: So, I mean, I think. Donna Troka: I think I guess the point is is that you don't want to dwell so much on I just screwed up, and I want you to make me feel better, but instead I just screwed up. I'm sorry I screwed up. Donna Troka: And I'm going to work on not doing that again. Right. So, I mean, when I teach at the beanie classes I you know I asked my students Donna Troka: What you know everybody what pronouns, they want, and I asked him to help me with pronunciations of name and I say, I'm going to screw this up, but I'm going to work on it. Donna Troka: So I just asked for, for you to give me some grace, but like also like I should. This is my job, not yours. Right, so I think Elena Lesley: Yeah, I'm not sure I'm answering that very well. But yeah, I like the idea of of thanking people as well and and like you said just sort of shift the focus and not make it about wanting them to make you feel better, you know, right. Donna Troka: Like, thank you for your grace. Yeah. Elena Lesley: Yeah. Um, let's see, we have another question here. Elena Lesley: What recommendations do you have to help ourselves be prepared to be receptive to feedback about our bias. Since our instinct would be to push back on any call out it would take some advanced preparation to be receptive when the time comes, suggestions. Donna Troka: Yeah, I mean, it's hard, right, I mean the same part of your brain. We were talking about that. Does the bias is the same. You know what I mean, it's like gives you that same sort of like Donna Troka: Whoa, I did you know I did something wrong. Oh, they're gonna think I'm racist or, oh, they're going to think, I don't know what I'm talking about, you know, so I think that Donna Troka: This is, I guess, for me it's a lifelong journey. You don't mean so I don't have like a, like, just take this pill and eat two apples and it'll be fixed. Right. I think instead. It's just if someone gives you feedback. I think Donna Troka: If you can say thank you. No, thank them and say, I've been to think about that. Donna Troka: Because I think oftentimes if someone calls you or somebody you don't say, Oh, I'm so sorry I'm not sure that you've actually really kind of metabolized what they've said or Donna Troka: Even like thought through what it means. And I think that that's a bigger process. Donna Troka: So I think you have to do some kind of like internal kind of like reflective work to realize like, okay, what did I do there, like, what, how could I have done that different. And let's say you know if Donna Troka: You know someone calls me out on something, you know, from a group that I'm not a part of right let's say Donna Troka: Somebody a person of color and they say something I said was racist right Donna Troka: It's not my job to then go to all my friends of color and be like, Yo listen someone call me racist and I don't really get it. Can you help me out. Right. Donna Troka: It's, you know, it's my job to do the work and also maybe talk to other white people and be like, listen to what just happened to me. What do you think about that. You have any ideas, right. Like, I think that there's a way in which Donna Troka: Again, if you've already done damage to a group. It's not that groups job to like educate you on why you did damage. Does that mean Elena Lesley: What do you think Alina. Yeah, no, definitely because you because people already in sort of underrepresented groups already have to do so much of this kind of emotional labor. Elena Lesley: So I think it would be best not to do that if you can. And I'll say, Oh, we have. Well, what do you think about this. I mean, you're black. So yeah. Was this offensive. Elena Lesley: Well, I can't really speak for everyone. Yeah. Donna Troka: Okay. Marcia is telling us that will wrap it up. Um, I don't know if Donna Troka: I couldn't Donna Troka: Get to the question and answer for some reason. But did we answer those questions. Elena Lesley: Oh, we did almost all of them. Okay. Marche Simpson: Yes, thank you so much down in Atlanta. This was a wonderful experience as a lifetime learner. I have so many notes on my page. Marche Simpson: So, thank you. Thank you so much. And for everyone who joined us. Thank you for joining us for this important conversation. If you would like to continue this conversation through small group dialogue. Marche Simpson: You should join us on every civic dinners, which is dinners comm slash Emory and we'll also have another conversation on Tuesday, December 1 Marche Simpson: On the long game and inclusive community with emeralds belonging, a community justice working group. Thank you all again and enjoy the rest of your day. Donna Troka: Right, thanks, y'all. Thank you.
