Please welcome Andrew Ross Sorkin please Please and his please guests CEO of Tesla CEO of SpaceX chief engineer and CTO of X Elon Musk. Good evening everybody. Thank you so much for being with us throughout the day and I couldn't be more pleased to sit with Elon Musk has our final interview of this remarkable time. We've all had together. He doesn't need much of an introduction by which want to say a couple things. He's the richest person in the world. He very well be the most concise how most consequential individual in the world right the world in individual most consequential console right now. He runs the most Innovative companies. World Tesla SpaceX starlink, which is part of that neuro-link the boring company X and his x.a. I and he's disrupted each of these Lanes. He's moved at Breakneck Breakneck speeds, but he's facing a storm of controversy in the process. He joins us today following a visit as you all know, so well we discussed earlier on Monday to Israel where he met with the Prime Minister there and the president of Israel and we're going to talk about everything and my hope is that we can talk about how he he thinks about He thinks his influence about he thinks his power about He thinks all of it. And we're going to talk about Innovation and everything else. I want to say just two other things real quick. So we met each other for the first time 16 years ago. Yes, long time a long time and all the kids were three when we first met I do. I think I do you're just you're about to deliver your first Roadster. I don't think you had yet. Larry Page was still waiting. Yeah. It's to get like in 2007 2008 and I don't agree with a little bit 2008. I remember going back to The Newsroom and saying I think I just met the next Steve Jobs and it was I'm at a hold to that. Okay, I'm gonna hold to that but a lot has happened between when I first met you and now you came to deal with been boring, that's for sure. Well, actually it taken by a driver boring Kony driver boring kony2012. You came. To deal book and sat on this stage and we're thrilled to have you back but there's been so much that happens between now and then and there's been so much that's happened in the past week week and a half and a lot of folks and I want to tell you this elevator. A lot of folks called me up and said you really you really going to host Elon Musk here. Can you believe what he just said on Twitter on 1X on? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, no idea what this Twitter thing about. Should you platform? Him, that's what they said. Yeah, did you platform then? I said that I think it's our role. And I know you have issues with Journal has a platform and I know you have an issue with journalists often times, but I said it's our role to have conversations and to inquire and to and sometimes even interrogate ideas and that's what I'm hoping. We can do that. So I want to start just so we can begin this conversation and just level just and conversation this begin can we so just start to I want level said take us through. Everything that happened if you could everything know over the past week and a half of your God we're going to we've got the time, okay. You send out a you send out a post or an X or a tweet, otherwise, whatever. Yeah, as I'm trying to like when things were just 140 characters that made sense coma tweet because like a bunch of little birds chirping, but when you know point which you can put like three our videos on it's like it's very long tweet. So here we are. This is more descriptive I think and at some point I don't know where you were. But you write in responding to another tweet. Yes. This is the actual truth and it set off a firestorm of criticism all the way to the White House, right? And then you make this trip to Israel. You have advertisers who left the platform people calling. Well, the trip to Israel is independent of it wasn't something like apology tour. I want to be clear. That was well. Let's talk about that. So just but just take this back. Back to the moment at which you write that trip to Israel is independent of was like in response to that at all. Well, let's do it will do is really just a moment. I have no problem being hated hated, hated by the way. I hear it away. Well, but you know what, let's go straight to that then for a second sure because there is an idea and you could say that you don't real weakness 21 He liked a real weakness. I do not have that. Let me ask you this. Then. There's a difference you're saying I don't care if anyone likes me or they hate me, but given your power and given what you have amassed and your the importance you have. I would think you want to be trusted I would think maybe you don't need to be liked or hate it but trusted matters if if x is going to become a financial platform where people going to put their money where people where the government's going to give you money for four Rockets where people are going to get into the cars. They need to ultimately decide that you are they don't have to say that they love you, but that you are ultimately a decent and good human being. Yes. being. human good and decent a ultimately you are that but Yes. I am and I think I am. But but I'm certainly not going to But do but some sort of tap dance to prove to people that I am so as for trust, I mean, I think write that down in a few ways if you want your if you want satellites into orbit reliably SpaceX will do 80% of all master orbit this year China will be 12 percent. The rest of the world will do eight that includes Boeing Lockheed and everyone else. So the track record of the rocket is the best by far of anything you could you could hey My guts next you could not trust me. It is relevant the rocket track record speaks for itself with respect to Tesla. We make the best cars whether you height your life hate me like me or in different different. Do you want the best car or do you not want the best car so So I will certainly not Pander and Johnson like the only reason I'm here is because you are a friend. Like what was my speaking fee? You don't you're not making any example. I'm Andrew. But yeah, sorry. It's okay. Second of all, we've known each other for a very long time smoking. Yes, and listen, you know what? I'm trying to illustrate us that sometimes I say the wrong thing. I think they're a lot of people who are tired, but let me let me go back. You should hear the sketches that SNL wooden post. By the way, those are really good by wooden post and I would say By wooden post. unfortunately or fortunately or unfortunately whatever friendship we have not great. We don't talk to each other that that much but let me ask you this. That's true. Where am I? Where am I because I need any validation or it is that It it we've been friends for 16 years It and I promised you I'd be here and that's why I'm here. Well, I appreciate you being here for any other reason but let me ask you this. Then. Let's just go at it. Just tell me what happened you write this tweet that says that this is the actual truth people read that tweet. Yes, and they say Elon Musk is an anti-semite that he is. He's riling up this base you're hearing it from as I said the White House your You get from Jewish groups all over I think Jonathan Greenblatt from the ADL is here. There's lots of people who say this and by the way, it's not just that generally the whole thing during the whole I did and that's why when I ask her responses, excuse me, I said more More responses. Yeah, I said more I said more than what you just read this the other was absent. There is absolutely more. Yes, but I'll tell you the thing that struck me it wasn't and I'm an American Jew. It wasn't just the people who had that view was actually people who who really are anti-semites who said oh my goodness go go E Lon this is E Lon, fabulous. E Lon E Lon, And that actually was the thing that really me set really really that thing the was actually that And back. I said I myself what's going on here and I want to know how you felt about What's going on that what's going on in that moment. When you when you saw all of this happening. Yeah. Well, first of all, I did clarify almost immediately what I meant, I would say that that was you know, if I could go back and say I should in retrospect not have replied to that particular person and I should have written in Greater length as to what I meant. I did subsequently clarify. In replies, but those clarifications were ignored by the media. And essentially I had a loaded gun to those who hate me and arguably to those who had just medic to fill in for that. I'm quite sorry. That is not that was not my intention intention. So I that sorry did, you know That sorry. post on my primary timeline to be absolutely clear that I'm not anti-semitic that and anti-semitic not I'm that clear absolutely be to and that I in fact if anything and file of Summer Enoch and the trip to Israel was planned before any of that happened. It was neither here nor there. Do you see this thing? You know what it is? I do because I actually followed your tire trip to Israel right when I tell everybody. This is the says. It says bring them home. the hostages it was given to me by the parents of one of the hostages. and I said I would wear it just as long as there was a hostage store meeting and I have what was that trip like and obviously, you know that there's a public perception that and your clarifying this now. but But there is a public perception that that was but part of But a apology tour. If you will that this had been said online there was all of the criticism there was advertisers leaving we talked to Bob I gotta stop you. Hope don't Hope gotta stop you. I Bob to talked we leaving was advertisers don't advertise. You don't want them to have a Time know. What do you mean? If somebody could try to Blackmail me with advertising blackmail me with money go fááá yourself. but go fááá yourself. Is that clear? I hope it is. Hey Bob. You're in the audience. Well, let me ask you then. That's how I feel. but advertise, how do you But advertise, think that about the economics of x if part of the underlying model least today and maybe it needs to shift. Maybe the answer is it needs to shift away from advertising advertising? If you believe that this is the one part of your business where you will be beholding to those who have this view. What do you do? Why? I understand that there's a reality to right. Yes, no. No, I mean Ocarina is right here, and Ocarina is right here she's got to sell advertising. Absolutely. So no no, don't tell you so well, no, actually what this advertising boycott is is going to do it's going to kill company. And you think that the and And and the whole world will know that those advertisers killed company and we will document it in great detail. But there are those advertisers I imagine are going to say they're going to say we didn't kill the company. Oh, yeah, they can you say hello to tell to Earth, hello to tell to Earth but they're going to say that hello to tell to Earth, they're going to say you hello to tell to Earth Lon that you killed the company because you said these things and they were inappropriate things and they didn't feel comfortable on the platform, right? platform, the comfortable on feel didn't they and things inappropriate That's that's what Amanda said. Let's see how Earth response to that. So many okay this then this goes back to what we'll both make our cases, right and we'll see what the outcome is. What are the economics of that for you? I mean you have enormous resources so you can actually keep this company going for very long time. Would you keep it going for a long time if there was no advertising? I mean if the company fails because of an Advertiser boycott, it will fail because of times boycott and that will be what bankrupt the company and that's what everyone on Earth will know. What do you think then of the I can trust though? They're not be gone and we'll be gone because of an Advertiser boycott, but you recognize that some of those people are going to say that they didn't feel comfortable on the platform and I want I just wonder and ask you about and think about that for a sec to adjudge with dollar to a judge it, but the judge is going to be judges the public. And you think that the public is going to say that that Disney is making a mistake. Yeah, and they're going to boycott Disney yeah, and they're going Yeah, and they're going yeah, and they're going they already are well, there are some that are for lots of different reasons, but you think that this is going to that you have the this ghost actually the interesting of power of power and leverage let the chips fall where they may Let the chips fall where they may I just want y that is the approach. I asked it because you've been with every approach. Well, you've been very particular about the approach to Tesla when you think about the engineering involved in that the approach to SpaceX the approach to some of the stuff you're doing with with AI has been very specific right? There's not a let the chips fall where they may approach to those businesses. I don't think that we focus on making the best products and products best the focus on making we think that don't I and Tesla has gotten to where it's gotten. With no advertising at all. I understand that Tesla currently sells to twice as much in terms of electric vehicles as rest of electric car makers and United States combined tell has done more to help the environment than all other companies combined refer to say that therefore as a leader of the company. I've done more for the environment than everyone else at any single human on earth. How do you feel about that? Now what are still about that? Yeah. No, I'm asking you personally how you feel about that because this goes we're talking about power and influence and I'm saying I'm saying what I care about is the reality of goodness not the perception of it and what I see all of the place is people who care about looking good while doing evil fááá them. Okay. Let me ask you this because I think part of let me ask this Let me ask by the way, there's some people who said look owning X to begin with as just created problems that you created so many amazing things that are changing our world and and I know you want to make X at this And world. fabulous Town Square Free Speech platform, but that unto itself that that has create such a distraction of all of these things. This is the conversation we're having we're not focus. We're not talking lease yet and we will on Tesla you have your cyber truck deliveries. Tomorrow and everything else you're doing but is there any will be the biggest product launch of anything but by far on Earth this year is it is there any part of you though? That just says you know what I just shouldn't have done this or maybe I should sell it or give it away or do something else with that with the X piece of it. Yeah, given given given the propensity for some of the things that you do and say on that platform to create these these issues. Yeah. I will the posts I've done on the platform. I think there might be. 30,000 or something like that right once in awhile. I'll say something foolish. And I have and I would certainly it put and And that comment and that you said there's truth in among perhaps one of the most foolish if not the most foolish thing I've ever done on the platform and I did do my best to clarify afterwards that you know, I certainly don't mean anything anti-semitic in that the nature of the criticism was simply that the that simply was criticism of the nature the that in the Jewish people have been persecuted for thousands of years. Ears. There is a natural Affinity therefore for persecuted groups. This has led to the funding of organizations. organizations that is essentially promote any persecuted group or any group with the perception of persecution. This includes radical Islamic groups. Everyone here has seen everyone the Everyone everyone massive demonstrations for Hamas in every major city in the West. That should be jarring. Well a number of those organizations received funding from prominent people in the Jewish Community. They didn't expect that to happen it but if you generically But it. but it But it. without condition sort of fund if you find the persecuted groups in general Some of those persecuted groups unfortunately won't your annihilation. and And and what is what I meant by that And when I subsequently clarify it is is that it's unwise to to to find to find organizations unwise to it's clarified is is that organizations that support groups that want your annihilation. Is this coming across McNeely? Yeah my question to you though. Logically. This is makes a lot of sense. Is there any part of you? Just tell me what happens though? When once all this happens, let's say you find a group that group supports Moss. He wants you to die. Perhaps you should not fund them, right? But you but you do thank you but you But you but you you do appreciate that when you wade into these very delicate Waters When that. at these when that When that. very delicate times. Yes, Yes that it can create a real. I mean as it created headlines for the past two weeks and and economic impact. What I'm just so curious what happens in your brain when you see all this happening, I think are you sitting there going? Oh my God, I stepped in it. I wish I didn't do that. Are you saying sááá through them? I hate these people why they after me but all of that. Yeah, all of that. I mean, look, I'm sorry for that that pre or post. It was foolish of me of the 30,000. It might be literally the worst and worst the literally be might It 30,000. the me of foolish of was dumbest to post that I've ever done and I try to do my best to clarify six ways to Sunday, but But ways to Sunday. you know, at least but ways to Sunday, But ways to Sunday. I think over time it'll be obvious that in fact far from being anti-semitic. I'm in fact follow Semitic and my all the evidence in my track record would support that. Obviously. There are people who say crazy things on on X, as you know, maybe think they're crazy people are not they're not the crazy, but they're think maybe know, you as X, the aspiration for X is to be the global town square. Now if you were to walk down to let's say x square, right? Do you occasionally hear people saying crazy things? Yes, but they're not they don't have the megaphone right and that's that's the conundrum but they can only say it to 50 or 100 people that are that are sitting standing there in Times Square. They don't have a mega. I mean look the the joke I used to make about old Twitter was it was like giving everyone in the psych ward a megaphone. So, you know, you So, megaphone. ward a the psych in everyone giving like I'm aware of that things can gets promoted that are - beyond Gets promoted the sort of Circle of somebody simply gets promoted screaming crazy things in Time Square which happens all the time, you know, so the it's actually it's pretty rare for something frankly that is hateful to be promoted. It's not it's not it's not that it never happened. But it's it's fairly rare. I mean, I would encourage people to look at for those that use the system when you look at the the sort of the feed that you receive. How often is it? Is it hateful and over time has it gotten more or less hateful and I would say that if you look at at the look you if that say I would and hateful less or it gotten more the X5 forms a day versus a year ago. Go I think it is actually much better. I mean, what is your clothes? Like are you surprised I'm just curious if you use this I use the platform religiously I so you admit to being an addict you and I use the for you and I will I will say now the problem is because I'm a journalist I go looking for stuff. Well, that's not a sentence saying because I and I also think the algorithm for me personally because I'm looking for stuff also is feeding the others things. This is actually a challenge in that A a like sometimes people will say like why is it showing me, you know posts from this person that I hate and we're like well, did you interact a lot with this person that you hate? Well, yes. Well therefore thinks that you want to interact more with this person that you hate. That's like a reasonable. Let me ask, you know, if you kind of want to have an argument tweet. Yeah. Do you have a post? Let's say post when you post it wasn't a moment. If anyone can I come up with a better word? better a come up with I can anyone If moment. post it wasn't a word? That would be great when you post though, but this bad word I can think of is post. So when you post though, do you are you trying to rile up either a base or an audience? Do you recognize the power you have in that? And and also by the way not just rile up rile up one version of sorry, but also write down which is to say as I said, there are people who are demonstrable anti-semitic on the site who I get jewboy things. All sorts of things that come through on my way. Hey for a while. I thought I was through so they would you know get it to it. But no, but the question is condemned as Supergirl you ever think to yourself. You know what I'm gonna go online and I'm going to say these people I condemn these people that are on my site saying these things because I have said I have you see I've condemned an assembly but do you ever go I said I could can literally I literally posted I condemn anti-Semitism in all its forms like that is a literal we've literal post that post we've literal literal a like that is forms all its in that I made. I mean, I'm like listen if I can get out thesaurus if you you know, and we could you know, I let me ask you a different question you you you compose it. I'll post it. Okay. Let me ask you this. You You you you you you you You you you your honor you're on a podcast about a month ago. And you said something that struck me and it struck me is accurate came out of your mouth. So hopefully it is but it I'm hoping to go deep on this stuff because it came out of my mouth does not mean it's true. You said my mother who said my mind is a storm. I don't think most people would want to be me. They may think they want to be me, but they don't know they don't understand. What did you mean by that? What was that what your mind being a storm and I think it I mean I have known you for quite some time. I think it is a bit of a storm. Yes. Yeah, I mean I Yeah. Yeah, know as much as a where the metaphor make sense, my mind is often feels like a like a like a very Wild Storm. I mean, I have a fountain of ideas. I mean I have my ideas and I could possibly execute so I have no shortage of ideas Innovation is not the problem. The problem execution is the problem. I've got a million ideas. I mean, I've got an entire entire design an got mean, I've I got a million ideas. I've design for an electric supersonic vertical. Off jet but I mean I just if I just can't do that as well. I've had it for 10 years. And there's a million things your storm a Happy Storm. Yeah, it's not a Happy Storm. Yeah. tell us about that Tell us because I think that that tell us actually Tell us when people try to really understand you, I think that there's a lot there's a that think I you. understand really to people try it when of this comes from some other place and I want to talk about that. What do you think that is? It was really like a psychiatrist catch her or something. You know, I think to some degree I was born this way, but and then it was Amplified by a difficult childhood rightly. So but I can remember even in the happy moments when I was a kid that there's kid that was a I happy moments when there's just it just feels like this just a rage of horses Rage in my mind constantly now this, you know productively manifests itself in technology and Building Things for the most part, so And I think on balance the output has been very productive. I think the results at as we you know, discussed earlier with SpaceX Tesla PayPal, which is you know, still going today the first year and a company that I started in fact the first In started. year in a company I started of to was funded by New York Times company Hearst knight-ridder and remember We wrote some of the software for we the New York Times website We we and we help bring online several hundred newspapers that previously were only in front. Now. This is in the 90s, which at this point is like I'm like good grandpa black, but basically, you know the nineties and internet feels like a Precambrian era when there were only the sponges so Anyway, so, anyway, so, Anyway, so, you know, anyway, so, I feel like that a lot of productive things have been done and you can also look at Tesla as being through as Tesla at look can also you and been done have productive things many companies and wine like are super charging network is if it were if this it tells a supercharger Network where its own company, it would be a Fortune 500 company by itself. It's just just the super charging system. We also make the cells we build the electronics in the power train from scratch. We have the most Innovative structural design. The larger castings ever used. We have the best manufacturing technology have the best manufacturing We used. ever castings larger technology at Tesla better manufacturing technology than companies that have been doing it. For 100 years. So so these these Demons of the mind, you know, I for the most part harnessed to productive ends, it's Luna a script that does it mean that once in a while while. They they while you know, go wrong wrong, wrong wrong, but but and this is a question, I think a lot of lot of people, think a question, I a is this and wrong know, go people, you know are always trying to figure out about not just you but sometimes Meaning what is driving all this you're doing all of these things. Do you think it's do you think that you would be as successful? Whatever success is if it wasn't being If if driven by some I think that there's something you're trying to prove either yourself or to somebody. I don't know. We're all trying to prove that the person who is my mother. I don't know. No, if I were to sit describe My Philosophy it is a philosophy of curiosity. I did have this existential crisis when I was around 12 about what's the meaning of life, isn't it all pointless? Why not just commit suicide why exist? I read the religious texts. I read the philosophy books that are especially the German philosophy books made me quite depressed frankly when frankly depressed quite me made books philosophy German the when you're not read schopenhauer and each has a teenager. But then I read but But but Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy which is a book on philosophy in the form of humor. And the point that Adams was making there was that we don't actually know what questions to ask. That's why I said that, you know, the answer is that 42. that, that Basically it's a giant computer and and it came up with the answer 42, but then to actually figure out what the out what figure actually then to but 42, answer with the up the question is. That's Actual hard part I think this is generally true also in physics at the point of which you can properly frame. The question. The answer is is actually the easy part. So so so mi order vation then was that well. My life is finite really a flash in the pan and on a galactic time scale, but if we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness. Then we are better able to figure out what questions to ask about the answer. That is the universe. And we're maybe we can find out the meaning of life or even what question to what the right question to ask is. You know, where do we come from? Where are we going? Where are the aliens are there aliens? At you know, these these questions. You you You know is their new physics to you discover or is this because there's addition to be some real questions about dark matter and dark energy energy. And so the purpose of SpaceX is to extend life beyond Earth on a sustained basis so that we can at least pass one of the Fermi great filters, which is that of being a single planet civilization if we are single planet civilization then Then we are simply waiting around for some then Extinction event whether that is man-made or natural. natural, natural. But if you're a single planet civilization, eventually you will something will happen to that planet and you will die. If you were a multi-planet civilization, you will live much longer. Also multi plant civilization is that's the natural stepping stone to being a multi Stella civilization and being out there Among the Stars so, you know this I think has To that. This is not simply a defensive motivation, but it is also one where that you know that gives meaning Man's Search for meaning triple ask you if there's this philosophy Point even though it may seems rather esoteric that may resonate with a few people. We must get past this Fermi filter of Venus a great future of being a single planet civilization. And if we do that will more likely to understand the nature of the universe and what questions to ask if you're a believer in the philosophy of curiosity then Philosophy of then philosophy of I think you should support this Philosophy of ambition and but it's more that there's being a multi-planet species is more than than simply. You know life insurance life insurance for Life collectively. That's a defensive reason, but but I think also that that life has to be more than simply solving one side problem after another, you know, they're happy that be reasons many where you wake up in the morning and you're happy to be alive. They have to be reasons that you you have to say. Why are you excited about the future like what gives you hope? And and if you if you are unsure ask your kids. And and I think the idea of us being a spacefaring civilization and being out there Among the Stars. Is incredibly inspiring and exciting and something to look forward to. And they need to be such things in the world. May I ask you a different question about confidence? We were having a conversation here earlier, but people and where your where people get their Confidence from some people have written security other people have insecurity great great confidence and I was thinking about you because you have a very interesting history where people have told you over and over again that you're wrong. Well, sometimes they're right. Well, sometimes they are but I would say that when it comes to Tesla when it came to SpaceX people told you that you were crazy. You're out of your mind. This was never going to happen. Yeah, it's going to work. And so yes, we ask you this though and so we're going to work is now when people say you're wrong. This isn't right. Do you look at that and say you know what that's like a red flag for me because you know, I've been told so often that I'm wrong that I know that I and I know I'm right because I've had that experience or other people in your life when they say, you know, what Ilan this is not this is not right. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, I think we're just trying to say is that do at this point think because what you're trying to say is I've been right so many times for others have said I'm wrong that now I passed believe I'm right when I fact I'm wrong. You did very well. What do you think know? I'm right. know? I'm right know? I'm right. So yeah, no, look. Here's the thing No, I'm right. think? physics is unforgiving for. Yeah, look here's the thing physics is unforgiving physics is unforgiving. So. I mean I have you know, these very simple things I've come up with that physics is the law and everything else was a recommendation right in the sense that you can break any law made by humans, but try breaking a law made by physics as much more difficult. So if you are wrong and persistent being wrong, the Rockets will blow up and the cars will fail. So this is we're not trying to figure out what flavor of ice cream is the best flavor Figure out figure out of ice cream the like if there's a thousand things that can happen on a rocket flight and only one of them gets the rocket orbit. and And so being wrong and And results in Failure when dealing with physical objects, but that's the interesting part. So now you've built this these great companies that physically the physics of them are enormously successful. So successful arguably that you have leverage over everybody else, right? There's nobody else can do starlink. Nobody else can get I nobody else can get the rockets in space yet Amazon and Jeff Bezos are trying but they haven't yet. I hope he does you hope he does. Yeah, and I think you know, but I actually agree with with love Jeff's motivations. I mean, I think you know he's so I'm living for their but this way if there was a button I could press that would delete blue origin. I wouldn't press it. So I think it's good that he's spending money on on making Rockets to you know, it's just Pepsi spend more time. it but you know, it's up It to him the to make a point here. So nothing nothing any of my companies have done has been to stifle competition. In fact, we've done the opposite. So at Tesla we have open sourced our patents anyone can use anyone patents our sourced open have we Tesla at So opposite. the done our patents for free how many companies do not have done that? Can you name one? I can't at SpaceX. We don't use patterns. So I mean said once in a while will file a patent just so some patent troll doesn't cause trouble but we're not stopping any that we've done we've done nothing anti-competitive. We've done nothing to stop a not just you at all. I just want to clarify for the audience because some companies have done done anti-competitive things. I think think the I things. anti-competitive done have companies the strange thing about the unusual. Thing about space X and Tesla is that we've done things that have helped a competition. So at Tesla we have made our supercharger system Open Access. We made our we Access, We Access. charger technology we Access, available for free to the other manufacturers. The reason I know Walled Garden we could have put a wall up the road instead. We invited them in the reason I mention this though is because you've had the success had you've because though is this mention I reason the the success in the physical physics world, you know. Now have now have these very difficult Now have decisions now have that have huge impacts on the world that are not physical decisions at all their decisions of the Mind the decisions that you and others have to make it as a question whether you should be making these decisions at all and I think about in the context of starlink. Obviously there was the report about how it's being used in Ukraine and the rough War there's questions about what you know, Taiwan whether Taiwan should use it or we'll use it. I believe they're not right now because they're worried that at At at some point maybe the Chinese At will tell you that you have to they have leverage over you and you're going to have to turn that off right then. These are these are very difficult decisions. And I'm so curious how you think how you curious so I'm and decisions, difficult very are these about that and not just the decisions the fact that you have that power. I think it's important for the audience to understand. The reason I have these Powers not because of some anti-competitive actions it simply because we've executed very well. Oh, I'm not dismissing that I think there's so many people by the way who are huge supporters of what you there are already dead lights out there, you know, but they're and but they're not as good as yours and the same and we can say that maybe make the same argument of cars and everything else. But as a result that gives that result a as But else. everything and cars of argument same gives you enormous Leverage Right, okay with the exception of the by the way, these advertisers weren't on X in every other instance. Everybody needs you. Well, I mean nobody's letting them use our product if it's better than you somebody else's product. If it's there are other products better and I accept that and maybe one day so I can also create a better product. Like, you know, like, product Like, product. how like, product is it about thing to make better products with other companies? Well, and I wanted to go back to this to the Starling piece of it though because it that has sort of a geo geo political ramification in terms of your power and how you think about that specific power and then the power that the u.s. Government might have either over you or Not Over Not or you over either have might Government u.s. the that power Over You the The power of the Chinese government might have over you or not over you and how those things get used. We're in what are you suggesting? I'm asking the question around this this very idea of how these satellites are going to be used. Whether you think that you should have control of control have should you think that you Whether used. be to of them whether the government should have control of them was the government. Well, that's a there's a lot of people who don't trust the government exactly. But then this goes back to the trust of you. Right? I mean like said that we're not the only company who has communication satellites. There are considered lights are just much better than theirs. So it's not like we have added Monopoly. Do you feel do you feel like anybody has attacked? has you feel like anybody do you feel do Monopoly haven't attacked? It's not like you feel anybody has leverage over you. I mean, I think at the end of the day if we make bad products that people don't want to use then the vote will users to use then the don't want people that if we make bad products users will vote with their resources and you something else. It hit the conversation for a sec. I mean certainly me and my company is overseen by regulators and and while you know, once it once know, you while and by regulators and my company is overseen it since SpaceX darling Tesla. Are overseen by are Are cumulatively are over 100 Regulators in actually more than that few hundred Regulators because you got we're in 55 countries if you sum up all the times that I If countries. had an argument with Regulators of hundreds of regulators over decades, it can sound really terrible except but they forgot to mention that there were 10 million. Galatians we complied with and only five that I disagree with that little fight the five and it sounds like wow this guy's a real Maverick. I'm like, yeah, but what about the 10 million we complied with do you limit one related thing on this and The Leverage of countries and things over you and Regulators X is this free speech platform, you platform do platform, business platform in China lots of business China. That's an important part of your business. I imagine well not SpaceX. How do you think about how do you the How do you leverage that the Chinese have over you and do they have leverage over you and how do you feel about some people would say is it hypocritical for you to be doing business in China or frankly in other countries as well as it relates to X and other things that don't follow this free this follow don't that things and other X Where as it relates to free speech path that you have espoused. The best that their platform can do is adhere to the laws of Any Given country. Do you think there's something more we could do than that I think would be very hard. But I just wonder given the sort of strong philosophical approach that you've you've been vocal about whether you say to yourself, you know, maybe I shouldn't be doing business in that country. Well, first of all Starling and SpaceX to are no business in China whatsoever. Tesla has one of four factories for vehicle factories in China and China's, you know, I don't know a quarter of our Market or something like that. And so it's a quarter of Market of one company. The same is true by the way of all the other car companies. They also have something on that order of that order on something have also companies. They car the other of quarter of their sales in China. So if you if that's a problem for Tesla to pump every car company. I mean, I think one has to be careful about not conflating the various companies because I can only do things that are within the bounds of the law. I cannot do beyond that. My aspiration is to do as much good as possible and to be as productive as possible within the bounds of what is legal. More than that I cannot do I want to Pivot in talk about AI for a moment. We had Jensen Wong here who's big fan of yours is you know, yeah Johnson's also talk about talking about bringing you the first box by the way with Ilya interestingly enough. Yes back in 2016. I think there's a video of Jensen and be unpacking the first AI computer at open a.i. So I'm so curious what you think of what's just happened over the past two weeks while you were dealing with this other headline series of headlines. I was a whole other whole headlines. I was a of series headline other this with series of have evolved in a isopropanol AI. What did you think? Well, you found it co-founded. Oh found it. Yeah, I'm well the whole Well well Arc Well of open and I frankly is a little troubling because the the reason for starting opening I was to create a counter counterweight to Google Google and deepmind which at the time had two thirds of all AI talent and basically infinite money and compute and there was no there's no counter weight. It was unipolar world and Larry Page and I used to be very close friends and I would stay at his house and I and house his stay at I would and friends close be very to and I talk to Larry. Too late hours of the night about AI safety too late Too late too late and it became apparent to me that Larry what did not care about AI safety. I think perhaps the thing that gave it away was when he called me a speciesist for being pro Humanity as in you know, like erasers but for species so I'm like, wait a second. What side are you on Larry? And I'm like, okay. Listen this guy calling me as fishiest. It doesn't care about AI safety. We've got to have some counter point here because the seems like we could be this isn't just this is no good. So, okay. I was actually started at it was meant to be open source. I named it over and II after open source. It is in fact closed-source super in fact closed-source is It source. open my eye after over super close. You should be named renamed super close source for maximum profit. May I so because this is what it actually is. I mean fate loves irony. I mean, in fact friend of mine has this says like the way to predict outcomes is the most ironic outcome is to vote. It's like is Occam's razor like the simplest sort of explanation is most likely and my friend join us viewers that the most ironic outcome is the most likely and that's what's happened with open a.i. It's gone from an open source. Foundation a 501 C3 to Suddenly It's like a 90 billion dollar for profit Corporation with clothes horse. So I don't know how you go from here to there. But that seems like a I don't know how you get. I don't know if this is legal. It's like that's so as you saw Sam Altman get ousted Yeah by somebody, you know Elia and helium was somebody who was a friend of yours. Yes, you brought him there your relationship with Larry Page effectively. Down over you recruiting him away. I think that's correct. That was the fact that was the Larry refuse to be friends with me after I recruited illya and so here's Elia apparently saying something is very wrong. I think we should be concerned about this because I think Elly actually has a strong moral compass. He thinks about you know, he really sweats it over questions of what is right and if he felt strongly enough to Want to you know fire Sam Sam. Well, I think the world should know what was that reason. Have you talked to him? I reached out but he doesn't want to talk to anyone. Have you talked to other people behind the scenes is this is all happening. I've talked to a lot of people as nobody I've not found anyone. Who knows why have you I think we are all still trying to find out I mean one of two things is either it was a serious thing and we should know what it is or it was not a serious thing and and then the board should resign. What do you think of Sam Altman? I have mixed feelings about Sam. I do. You know the ring of power. You know can corrupt. and here's the ring of power so You know, I don't know. I think I want to know why Ilya felt so strongly as fire Sam the sounds like a serious thing. I don't think it was trivial. and And I'm and quite concerned that this that this um, you know you dangerous element of AI that they've they've discovered? Yes, you think they've discovered something? That would be my guess. Where are you with your own AI efforts relative to where you think open AI is where you think Google is. where the others are I mean on the AI front of in somewhat of a quandary here because I've thought I could be something that would change the world in a significant way since I was in college. I mean like 30 years ago. Well, the reason I didn't go college, bull day. I write for the get-go was because I was uncertain about which which edge of the double-edged sword which would be sharper the good edge of the vat Edge. So I held off on doing anything on a I could have created. I think leading a company and kind of opening I actually kind of is that because I was just uncertain if you make this magic Genie what will happen? you know, where as I think Building sustainable energy technology is much more of a single-edged sword. That is that single-edged sword single edge. Good making life multiplanetary. I think single-edged good. You're stalling mostly single-edged good. I mean giving people better connectivity to people that you know, don't don't you know have connectivity or too expensive I think is very, you know, very much a good thing. So only was instrumental by the way and the whole thing the Russian Advance the Ukrainian said so so, you know, I think there's think know, I so, you so said Ukrainian the Advance Russian the if it was AI, you've got the magic Genie. Problem. You may think you want a magic Genie. But once you've got Genies out of the bottle, it's hard to say what happens how far are we away from that Jeanne be kind of bodily think we think it's already out. When the genie is certainly poking his head out. the AGI The the idea of the artificial general intelligence The given what you now are working on yourself and you know how easy or hard it is to train to create the inferences to create the wait. I hope I'm not getting too far in the weeds of just how this works. But those are the basics behind the software end of this. It's funny, you know all these weights. They're just basically numbers in a are just weights It's funny, you know, all comma separated value file. That's our digital God the CSV file. on that are funny, On that are on that are On that are but that's the kind of literally what it is. So I think it's coming pretty fast, you know is that I mean, you've famously have admitted to overstating how quickly things will happen. But how quickly do you think this will happen? You say smarter than the smartest human at anything. Yep. It may not be then quite smarter than all humans will machine augmented humans, you know, because we keep y'all got computers and stuff as a higher bar. But you say smaller than any, you know, can write as good a novel is say JK Rowling or discover new physics or invent new technology. I would say that we are less than three years from that point. Let me ask you a question about xai and at what you're doing and because there's an interesting thing that's different. I think about what you have relatives of some of the others which you have data you have information you have all of the stuff that everybody in here has put on the platform to sort through and through sort to platform the on put has here in everybody I don't Everybody realized that initially. What is the value of that? Yeah, I'm data is very important. You could say that is probably more valuable than gold. But then maybe you have actually maybe you have more you maybe you have the gold in X in a different way in a way again that I don't know if the public appreciates what that means. Yes, X is the might be the single best source of data. I mean it is there more. You know people links that go to fill click on more links 2x than anything else on Earth. Sometimes people think Facebook or Instagram is a bigger thing, but actually there are more links to external anything you can this is public information you can Google it. Okay. Let me ask you a so it is it is a where you would find what is happening right now on Earth at any given point in time the whole open a drama played out out. out in fact In out. on the export form. So it is one is it form. So expert the on fact out. played drama open a of the it's not there. Are you know Google certainly has a massive amount of data so does Microsoft? So it's not like B is one of the best sources of data. Can I ask you an interesting IP issue, which I think is actually something I can say as somebody who's in the Creator business and journalistic business and whatnot were care about copyright. So one of the things about training on data has been this idea that you're not going to train or these things are not being trained on people's copyrighted information historically, that's been the concept. Yeah. That's a huge lie. Say that again. That's what these are. These are all trained on copyrighted it obviously so you think it's a lie when open a.i. Says that this is not none of these guys say they're training on copyrighted day though. That's a lie. It's a lie a lie. It's a though. That's day copyrighted on guys had their training straight up straight up lie. Okay our said soon obviously it's been trained on perforated data. Okay. So let me ask the second question which is all of the people who have been uploading and it's like whatever minute all of the people have been uploading articles the best quotes from different articles videos to X all of that can be trained on and it's interesting because people put all of that there and there of that all put people because interesting it's and and those quotes have historically been considered fair use Right, they do people are putting those quotes up the and individually on a fair use spaces you'd say OK that makes sense. But now there are people who do threads and by the way, there may be multiple people who've done, you know at article could has a thousand words technically all thousand words could have made it onto X somehow and effectively now you have this remarkable repository and I wonder what you how you think about that again and how you think the creative community and those who were the original original Ip. the were who those and community creative the A owners should think about that. I don't know except to say that the by the time these lawsuits are decided we'll have digital God. So that's that's digital. that's digital that's digital. God at that point. that's digital These lawsuits won't be decided before on a time frame that is relevant. Is frame that is relevant. a time on before decided be won't Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think we live you know, there's that I don't know if it's actually a real Chinese thing or not, but may you live in interesting times? But apparently not but times, a But times? good thing, but times, but good thing good thing, good thing and I would prefer to personally I would prefer to live in interesting times and and we live in the most interesting of times. I think for a while there. I was like really getting demotivated and losing sleep over. the sort of the threat of AI danger and then I finally sort of became fatalistic about it and said well Even if I knew it was Annihilation was certain. What I choose to be alive what What at that time or not, what and I said I probably would have choose to be alive at that time because it's the most interesting thing. Even if there was nothing I could do about it. So then, you know, then basically sort of a fatalistic resignation help me sleep at night because I was having trouble sleeping at night because of AI danger now what to do about it. I mean, I've been the biggest or the one banging the drum for the the hardest by far the longest Or this one of the longest for a high danger and or and these regulatory things that are happening are happening. are happening the single biggest reason that happening is because of me we are ever going to get their arms around it. We talked to the vice president this afternoon. She said she wants to regulate it people can try to regulate social media for years and have done nothing effectively. Well, there's regulation around anything which is a like a physical danger to a danger to the public. So like cars like So to the public. a danger to danger physical a like is a are heavily regulated. And Communications and I have And early regulated rockets and and aircraft are heavily regulated the general philosophy about regulation is that when something is a danger to the public that there needs to be some Governor oversight? So I think in my view AI is more dangerous than nuclear bombs, which we regulate nuclear bombs. You can't just go make a nuclear bomb in your backyard. I think we should have some kind of Regulation with a I now this tense cause the AI acceleration is to get up in arms because they think I is sort of having basically, but you're typically don't like don't typically but you're basically, having of is sort think I regulation. You've pushed back on Regulators for the most part in the of Of Tesla of and with so many so many instances where we read articles about you pushing back pushing you about articles read we where instances many so on The Regulators. I'm so curious. Why in this instance now you own one of these businesses. As I said a moment ago as As as one should not take what is viewed in the media as being the whole picture. There are literally hundreds like this is probably not an exaggeration. So they're probably 100 million regulations that that might companies comply with and they're probably five that we don't and if they're if we And disagree with and some of those regulations, it's because we think the regulation that is meant to do good doesn't actually do good. But that is not the thing to Flying regulations for the question if there are laws and rules. Whether the ideas that you're making the decision that the law and the whether the Whether the rule shouldn't be the law on the rule and then right isn't that I'm saying follow my name is taken and and you should be obvious that you're mistaken. My company's Automotive is heavily regulated. We would not be allowed to put cars on the road. If we did not comply with this vast body of Regulation. Now you could you could fill up the stage with literally, you know, six foot high with the regulations that you have to comply with. To make a car and make you could have a room full of phone books. That's how many that's how big the regulations are and if you don't comply with all of those you can't sell the car and if we don't comply with all the regulations for Rockets or for Starling they shot us down. So in fact, I am incredibly compliant with regulations now once in a while, they'll be something that I disagree with the reason I would disagree with that. It's because I think the regulation in that particular case in that rare. Our case our case does not Our case serve the public good our case and therefore I think it is my obligation to object to a regulation that is meant to serve the public good. If it doesn't that's the only time I object not because I seek to object. In fact, I'm incredibly rule-following. Let me ask you a separate question is social media related question. We've been talking about Tick-Tock today ahead of the election sir. Soccer's what do you think of tick-tock? Do you think it's a national security threat I don't use like talk it again. You don't I don't personally use it. but for people that for teenagers and people in their 20s, they seem almost And and religiously And addicted to technology. So we will watch Tech talk for like 2 hours a day. I stopped using Tick-Tock when I felt the AI probing my mind and I don't make me uncomfortable. So I stopped using it. And in terms of anti-Semitic content, I mean Tick Tock is Rife with that. It has the most viral anti-semitic content anti-semitic most viral has the It with that. Tick-Tock is Rife anti-semitic content by far, but you think the Chinese government is using it to manipulate. The minds of Americans though. Is that something that you think we should worry about? I mean you have a different states that are trying to ban it. I don't think this is a sometimes going plot, but it is The Tick Tock algorithm is entirely a high-powered. So it is really just try to find the most viral thing possible that it's what is going to keep you glued to the screen. That's screen. the to glued you to keep is going what it's that it now the On sheer numbers. There are on the order of 2 billion Muslims in the world and I think You know you know You know much you know smaller number of Jewish people for 20 million something many orders of magnitude fewer. So if you just look at at content production just unsure numbers basis is going to be overwhelmingly at Semitic. Let me ask you about another the mess your political question and I've been trying to square this one in my head for a long time. Yeah in the last two or three years you have moved decidedly to the right I think have I well we can discuss this. I think that you have been espousing and promoting a number of Republican candidates and others you've been very frustrated with the body Administration over I think unions and feeling like they did not respect what you've created. Well, I mean with without any during nothing to provoke the veteran administration, they held an electric vehicle Summit at the White House and specifically refused to let Tesla and this isn't the first And this six months of the and this administration And this and we inquiry like we literally make more electric cars that everyone else combined. Why are we not allowed? Why are you only letting your 84 GM Chrysler and UAW and you're specifically disallowing us from the EV Summit at the White House. We're done nothing to provoke them then Biden went on to add insult to injury and publicly said that GM was leading the electric car Evolution. This was in the same quarter that Tesla made 300,000 electric cars and GMA 26 Does that seem fair to you? So wierd Kappa tell me this then it doesn't seem fair. And and I've asked repeatedly you've probably seen me but we had a great relationship with Obama. So there's not a stupid amount, but then there's other for a long. I stood certain hours for sick. I stood in line for six hours to Shag Obama's head. Okay, so we just okay. So let me just ask on a personal level. me just ask on a personal so we just okay. So let Okay, head. I can see it in your face this this hurt you personally. And I hope the company and to And and it was an insult to you know, did Tesla has 140,000 employees? Okay of the employees. it Tesla half of them are in the United States tells us created more manufacturing jobs in everyone else combined. So we asked this then you've devoted at least the last close to 20 years your life. If not more to the climate climate change trying to get Tesla off the ground in part to improve climate. You talked about that a real right-wing motive repeatedly got a far-right if anything, I understand that and then it's so it's a good guys reverse psychology Next Level. Well, no, but so here's in the question, which is how do you square the support that you have given, Support I believe you were at a fundraiser for the Vogue ramaswamy. For example, who says that the climate climate issue is a hoax, right? I disagree with him on that. I but I would think that that would be such a singular issue for you. I would think that that the climate issue be such a singular issue for you that actually it would disqualify almost anybody who didn't take that issue seriously. Well, I haven't endorsed anyone for president. I mean I wanted to hear what they had to say because I think some of his things are there some things he says I think are pretty solid, you know is concerned about government overreach but about gun control of information. I mean the degree to which old Twitter was basically a sock puppet of the government was ridiculous. So, you know, it seems to me that me that the seems to it know, you So, ridiculous. was the there's a very severe violation of the amendment in terms of how much the government control how much control the government had overall Twitter and it no longer is so, you know, there's a reason for the First Amendment. The reason for the First Amendment for freedom of speech is because the people that immigrated to this country came from a place is where there was not reading of speech and and they were like, you know what we got to make sure that that's constitutional because where they came from if they said something that we put Resume whether it be, you know, something bad would happen to him. So and freedom of speech you have to say, when is it relevant? It's only relevant when when someone you don't like can say something you don't like or it has it or like don't you something say can like don't you has no meaning and as soon as you sort of You know throw in the towel and can see to censorship. It is only a matter of time before someone sensors you and that is why we have the First Amendment. Could you see yourself voting for President Biden if it's if they Biden Trump election, for example I think I would not vote for vitamin. You vote for Trump. Let s vote for Trump, but I mean This is this is definitely a difficult Choice here. You know, we would you or would you vote for Nikki Haley Nikki Haley, by the way, once Haley all social media names to be exposed as you know, no, I think that's outrageous. Yeah. No. No, I'm not going to vote for some pros and censorship. Canada that. like Canada and censorship pros some vote for to going I'm not like that. I mean, I think these you have to you have to consider that there is a lot of wisdom in these amendments, Consider you know, I mean the Constitution and and you know, a lot of these a lot of things that we take for granted here in the United States that don't even exist in Canada. There's not enough constitutional right to freedom of speech and Canada. So, you know, so and there's no Miranda rights in Canada people like think like, you know, you have the right to remain silent. You don't actually in Canada. So so you don't have Canadian I So can save you some coffee, but you know, so like you just got you the say these things about freedom of speech is incredibly important. Even when people said and I like that because it's a it's actually especially important. In fact, it is only relevant when people you don't like can say things you don't like and do you think right now as they're meaningless you think right now the Republican candidates for the Democrats are more inclined. I mean, this is where you go to I assume to to woke an anti woke an anti woke assume 22 woke and the mind Virus issue that you've talked about. Which party do you think is is more Pro freedom of speech given all the things you've seen is. We also see, you know, DeSantis, you know, preventing people from Reading certain things. Maybe you but maybe you think that's that's that's correct. No, look we actually are in an odd situation here where on balance the Democrats appear to be more Pro Spencer censorship than the Republicans. That used to be the opposite it used to be, you know, that left position was freedom of speech. You know, I believe at one point the ACL u-- even defended the right of someone to claim that they were not see or something like that, you know, so like they weren't there really were like the left was three of us peaches is fundamental and I mean my deception Perhaps it is inaccurate is that The pro censorship is more on the left than the right. We certainly get more complaints from the left and the right because that way so but my aspiration for the X platform is that it is the best source of Truth or the least in accurate source of Truth. Truth and well, And Truth. you know, I don't know you won't believe me or not, but I think but I not, me or believe you won't know don't I know, well, you Honesty is the best policy and I think that the truth will win. In overtime and the in overtime you know, we've In overtime got this this great system and it's getting better called Community notes, which is fantastic. I think it correcting falsehoods or adding context. In fact, we make a point of not removing anything but only adding context now that context could could include this is completely false and here's why and and and no one is immune to this. I'm not immune to it advertisers it to immune not I'm this. to is immune one no advertisers not immune to it. In fact, we've had community. Notes, which is caused us some loss in advertising speaking of lost some advertising Revenue. We're for Community note, if an app if this false advertising the community note will say this is false and here is why let me like there's one specific example that is public knowledge. So I'll mention it which is one point Uber had it, it this ad which said earn like a boss and it was Community noted if by boss if by noted Community was it and boss said earn like a which ad boss you mean And 47 cents an hour this distant cause at least a temporary suspension of advertising from Aruba. I got to ask you a question that might make everybody in the room comfortable or not uncomfortable and it goes to the Free Speech issue the New York Times company and the New York Times newspaper it appeared over the summer to be throttled. What did the New York Times? Well, we're do require that that everyone has to buy a subscription that we don't. Make make exceptions for Make make anyone and and I think if I want the New York Times I have to pay for a subscription and they don't give me a free subscription. So I'm not going to give them a free subscription. But were you what were you throttling the New York Times relative to other news organizations relative to everybody else was it was it was it specific to the to the times that it applies of Griffin by the only cost like a thousand dollars a month. So if they just do that then then they the back in back in the saddle, but but but you are saying that it was throttled now I'm saying I mean was there a conversation that you had? Is somebody you said look, is somebody you Is somebody you you know, I'm unhappy with the is somebody you times they should either be buying the subscription where I don't like their content or whatever any organization that refuses to buy a subscription is is not going to be recommended. But then what does that say about free? Speech and what does it say about the amplifying we search for it cost a little bit right but That's it. But that's an interesting. Yeah, it's like an South Park might I say, you know Freedom isn't free of cost a buck 05 or whatever. So but it's pretty cheap. Okay, it's So, low cost So So, low cost freedom. I got a couple more questions for you. You're headed back to Texas after this. We're going to launch the stopper truck. Yeah. It's going to be a big launch, but I wanted to ask you right now more broadly just about the car business The the The and what you see actually happening and specifically the government put in place lots of policies as you know to try to encourage more Evie's and one of the things that's happened uniquely is you have now a lot of car companies saying actually this is too ambitious for us. These plans are too ambitious for thousand dealers. I don't if you saw just yesterday sent a letter to the White House saying this has gone too far. You're going too far you had far you too going gone too far. You're has this saying had this on TV. It was a it was this It was is going too fast it was too far and that there's not enough demand are underneath all this is his idea that maybe there's not enough demand for Evie's that the American public has not bought into the I mean they bought into with with your company, but they haven't bought into it broadly enough. Well, I think if you make a compelling electric car, if you will buy it no question about it. I mean electric car sales in China are gigantic. gigantic that's by far the biggest category biggest that's by far the gigantic are China sales in car and I think that would be the case. No, I mean it's worth noting. Okay. So the probably the best reputation of that is that the so Okay, Tesla Model y will be the best selling car of any kind on Earth this year. Of any kind gasoline or gasoline of otherwise, is there another car company that you think is doing a good job with these? I mean, I think the Chinese called companies are extremely competitive by far our toughest competitions in China. So, I mean there's there's a lot of people who are out there think that the top ten car company is going to be Tesla followed by nine Chinese companies. I think they might not be wrong. So China is So wrong. be not might they I think companies. car Chinese nine super good at manufacturing and the work ethic is incredible. So you know, like You if we consider different leagues of you competitiveness at Tesla, we consider the Chinese League to be the most competitive. And by the way, we do very well in China because are trying to China team is the best China how worried are you that the union has unionization effort that just took place at what I should say effort. But but effort, the the new the new wages in the like at GM and Ford are that they're coming for you. They are coming for you. What is that going to mean to you and your business? Well, I mean, I think it's generally not good to have an adversarial relationship between people online, you know one group at the company and another group. In fact, I mean I disagree with the idea of unions, but the professor mean, I reason that is different than you may expect is which I just don't like anything which creates kind of Lords and peasants sort of thing. And I think the Union's naturally try to create. Negativity in a company negativity Negativity and and create a sort of Lords and peasants situation. There are many people at Tesla who have come and gone from working on the line to being in Senior Management. There is no laws and peasants. Everyone eats the same table or approximate a parking lot, you know GM there's a special elevator for only for senior Executives. We have no such thing at Tesla, you know, at Tesla, thing such no Executives. We have senior for only the things that I actually know the people on the line because I worked on the line and I walked the line and I slept in the factory and I worked beside them. So I'm no stranger to them and they're actually many times. I've said well can't we just hold a union vote but apparently a company is not allowed to hold a union vote. So it has to be somehow cool for but the union can't do it. So I said we'll just have to hold a vote and see what happens the actual problem. It is the is as the opposite. It's not that people trapped are people that not opposite. It's the as the is is problem are trapped at Tesla building cars the trip. The challenges is how do we retain? Great people to do the hard work of building cars when they have like six other opportunities that they can do that are easier. That's the actual difficulty is that bullying cars is hard work and and there are much easier jobs and I just want to say that I'm incredibly appreciative of those who have cars and they know it, you know, so there's There's there's There's I don't know. Maybe there will be your be nice. If I said like if Tesla gets your nights will be because we deserve it and we fell in some way, but we certainly try hard to way ensure the prosperity of everyone. We give everyone stock options. made We've options. stock everyone give We everyone. of prosperity We've made many people who are just working the line. Who didn't even know what stocks were we made the millionaires. So we're going to run on time final couple quick questions. When do you have the time? To tweet or the post. I actually think about all the time as I said, I used it bathroom. Sometimes I use it all the time meaning if we were to if we were to open up our phones and look at the screen time. What does yours look like? Well about every three hours I make a trip to the lavatory and that's the only time you do this seems like you're on there a lot. No, I mean I did they'll be like brief moments between meetings. I mean, it's not obviously I've had like 17 jobs so, you know so so, and so no no, I guess technically it's work this point it is but I'm thinking just in terms of your mind sharing. I mean, by the way, there's a lot of people who should be working who are who are on this app technically posting on Twitter is 0 or X is work it does count as work. So that's you know, there's that but no, I mean, I think I'm on. Well, I guess well, usually probably Well, I'm on well, for longer than I think I know what I know but you think that you have a day for the screen time of like number of hours per week. It's another that's a scary number. It's probably number hours per week. I don't know. It's a little over an hour a day or something like that. Just an hour a day. If we really looked at this together, do you have your phone with you? Yeah, you want to look? Okay. Okay, here we go. You're ready screen time in general in time. in time? You ready time? Sometimes. It's a scary number. I know that's why I thought I just got a new phone. So I think this is not accurate because I'm a it's one minute minute for one it's for sure. It's more than that. Alright, it's over the week. Either go. Yeah, go girl go to the week. Okay, so it's so wrong. It's more than four minutes. I just got a new phone. So this is not accurate. The police are four minutes new phone. Tim. Cook's end of the phone if new phone who does you know, I should ask by the way because I just mentioned Tim Cook. Do you feel like you're going to have to have a battle with him eventually, is that the next fight? I mean, I'd over the App Store the idea of making a phone call. You mean like no. No so of the App Store value make a phone. Sam Altman is apparently I'm thinking about making a phone with Johnny Ive. I mean, I don't think there's a real need to make a phone maybe if those are essential needs megaphone or make it fun, but I got a lot of fish to fry. So I mean I do think there's a there's a there's a fundamental challenge that phone makers have at this point because you've got basically got you've because this point at have makers phone that basically a black rectangle. You know, how do you make that better? So you want to do that? What does that was that look like in elon's head? So that's literally yes. Good good phrase in the head neurolink. Well, there we go. That way we need times before it's over. You know, the best interface would be a neural interface directly to your brain so that they'll be in your life. How far we do you think from that and how excited or scary does that seem to be and we read these headlines obviously about a monkey's who died as you know, what should we think about that? Yeah, actually the this is yeah, Yeah, the USDA inspector yeah, who came by neural link facilities literally said in said literally neurolink facilities in her entire career. She has never seen a better Animal Care Facility. it is It we are it the It nicest channels that you could possibly be even to the rats and mice even though they did the plague and everything. So it is it is like monkey Paradise. So the thing that's gets conflated is that there were some terminal monkeys where you know, this is like this is actually several years ago where the monkeys were about to die and I'm like, okay, we've got an experimental device. It's so kind of thing, which only On a monkey that's about today. And then you know now the monkey died but didn't die because the neural link died because it was, you know had a terminal case of cancer or something like that. So you're like it has never caused the death of a monkey Sylvester. I'm unless they're hiding something for me is is never caused death of monkey. And in fact, we've not had monkeys with neural implants for 23 years and they're doing great. So And we've even replaced the dinner like twice. It's and we're getting ready to do the the first it's dinner like twice It's dinner like twice. it's dinner like twice implants and hopefully in a few months the they're only implementations of neural link. I think are unequivocally good speaking of the double-edged sword. I think these early implementations are single edged sword because the first implementations will be to enable people who are have rushed the brain-body connection to be able to operate a computer or phone faster than someone who has hands. That work so you can imagine if Stephen Hawking could that communicate faster than someone who had for body functionality Now Incredible that would be well that's what this device will do and we should have a proof of that in a human hopefully in a few months it already Works in monkeys worked quite well with monkeys that can play video games just using just by thinking so then the next application after the the sort of those, you know dealing with The the tetraplegic some The quite a really quite a few tricks is going to be Vision vision is the the next thing so it's like if somebody is like has lost both eyes or the optic nerve has failed basically where there's Basically failed. they have no possibility basically failed of Basically failed. having sort of some ocular correction that that would be the next thing of when your link is a direct vision. face and in fact, then you Face could be like Face, face, Geordi laforge from Star Trek you could you could see in like any frequency actually could see in radar if you want to final questions and then we're going to do in this conversation, which I think has taken everybody Inside the Mind of Elon Musk today. Not as well as the neural link below. neural link below it actually goes to self-driving It actually goes neural link below. cars and vision and everything else everything and vision and cars driving self it actually goes and I asked this question of people to judge Transportation secretary. Three it's actually something you retweeted. So I wanted to ask you the same question. There's a big question about autonomous vehicles and the safety of them. But there's also a question about when will be politically palatable in this country for. people to die in cars that That that are controlled by computers, which is say That we have 35 40 thousand deaths every year in this in this country. Yeah, if you could bring that number down to 10,000 5,000. That might be a great thing. But do we think that the country will accept the idea that 5,000 people that your family might have perished in a vehicle as a result not of human making a mistake but of a computer. Yes. Well, first of all humans are terrible drivers, so people text and drive the drink and drive they get into arguments they you know Do all sorts of things in cars that they should not do. So so So it's actually remarkable that there are not more so deaths than there are what will find with computer driving is I think probably an order of magnitude reduction in deaths. I think now and the US has actually far fewer deaths per capita than the rest of the world world. If you go if you world If you world. worldwide, I think there's something close to a million deaths per year due to Automotive accidents. So I think computer after driving will probably drop that. By 90% or more it won't it won't be perfect, but it'll be ten times better than that. The public will accept that you think the government will accept that. Well in large numbers the well Well it will certainly be so obviously true that it really cannot be denied. And what do you think? I know we've talked about the timeline before and I know people have criticized you for putting out timelines that may not have come true just yet. But what do you think? Yeah it is. Do you feel that? You yourself said that sure of course. so yeah, I I'm optimistic about I mean, I think I'm like naturally optimistic about time scales. If I was not naturally optimistic, I wouldn't be doing the things naturally optimistic. that I'm doing. naturally optimistic, I mean I certainly want to start a rock company or like a car company if I wouldn't have some sort of pathological optimism frankly. So as you pointed out many people said they would fail and in fact I said, I actually I agreed with him I said, yes, we probably will fail and they're like, okay, but I thought SpaceX and Tesla had less than I like okay, a 10% chance of success when we started them. So yeah everybody but the self-driving thing is I've been optimistic about it, but we certainly made a lot of progress if anybody If progress. has tried the very has been using the sort of full self-driving beta the progress is, you know, every year has been substantial. It's really now the point where in most places it'll take you from one place to another with no interventions. And the data is and unequivocal that And and that supervised for self-driving is somewhere around four times safer or maybe more than just human driving by by themselves. So I'm you know I can certainly see it coming at what actually really the is another five or ten years and then people say, oh, no definitely not oh no definitely not definitely not did you feel like investors have invested in something that hasn't happened yet? Is that is that fair to them? And that's the other questions people have about that. Well, I mean, I think the their Vol with rare exception thought it wasn't happening. So they were investing in despite thinking they're very clear that they don't think it's real so real it's think don't they very clear that they're thinking they don't saying oh we're we just leave everything you and says Hook Line & Sinker, We we but the thing is that I mean, I would be a fair criticism of me to say that I'm late, but it isn't but I always deliver in the end. And that's your final question. I took note of this. It was November 11th. And you took to Twitter and you wrote only two words. You said amplify empathy. Right. I was taken back by that given all the things that have been going on in the world. You remember what you were thinking? Well, I think it's quite literally a I understand it but you always what was going on. What why did you write that? Well, I was encouraging people to apply empathy. It literally attention quite literal, but was there something that it happened? That you had seen that you said yourself. I need to I want to say that I think I'm talking to some friends. And we all agreed that we should try to amplify empathy and so I wrote a profanity. If you wanted an unvarnished look inside the mind of Elon Musk. I think you just saw it. Look sometimes it's pretty simple, you know. Elon Musk. Thank you very very much for the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much here. Take that with your second cousin. I'm just going to say thank you to everybody who stuck around for what has been a remarkable day. We are so appreciative of everybody who has been with us for so many years coming back to this every year. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you had a great day, and I hope we have an opportunity to do this again Elon Musk everybody. Thank you.
