- We'll be very nice and not
name the executive who almost- - Hold it.
- Took a nap on Shonda Rhimes. (laughs) We won't, I won't say it. I'm not saying, but he almost
slept on Shonda Rhimes, almost didn't air that pilot. You can do your research
and find out who it was. - Yeah. Anywho, so then-
- Imagine being that guy. - I think he still is that guy. - Yeah. (laughs) - I think he owns a vineyard
now, in Napa, anywho. (both laughing) (jazzy upbeat music) (jazzy upbeat music continues) - Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. - No, you, you start.
You're more professional. (both laughing) - You don't have a good memory. - No, I don't. - Okay, so let's start there. Do you have a memory of when we met? Because I was thinking, and
I don't remember when we met. - I don't have a specific
memory of the first time, but I remember that first week before we started filming the pilot, and I remember Peter Horton had us doing all those actor exercises. Didn't we do the, like, falling back and, like, the trust falls.
- Right, I forgot about all of that.
- And then we, like, sat in a circle and, like, laid
our heads in each other's laps, and, like, I don't know.
- Oh, that's right. - It was, like, all trust exercises. - That's right, good memory. - It was nice. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - I don't remember. I remember you had my baby shower for me. - I did.
- That was very nice. - By the way, I still
have all those photos. I meant to put together an album for you. I know it's been 13 years,
but it's not too late, is it? - (laughs) No.
- Okay, great. I'll send that off to ya.
- Are you kidding? - I would those photos.
- You would love the photos. And they still pop up sometimes like, this time 13 years ago, and it just brings back so
many incredible memories. You were so pregnant and- - Oh, I was. - Everyone was there,
like the crew, the cast. It was just, it was really
kind of a great day. - So how old is your oldest? - My oldest, Naleigh Moon, is 14. So she was just a year
older, almost exactly. Isn't Stella September, a September baby?
- Yeah, yes. - Yeah, so Naleigh came to us at nine months, around September, and you were just about
to have Stella Luna. So we were kind of in the boat together.
- Together. - It was really interesting. - So has Naleigh seen the show? Do you-
- No, (laughs) no. I haven't gone there yet with her. Stella has, right? You've
watched it together? - In sixth grade, which I
thought was a bit crazy- - Oh, I don't know, I mean... - Knowing what's in those- - Yeah, I remember. (laughs)
- First seasons especially. I was like, oh, in sixth
grade, they've all seen... And she was like, Mom, I'm the
only one who hasn't seen it. It's a little embarrassing and weird. - That's so crazy.
- So I said okay. So in the summer, she started watching it. And at first, I was like,
oh, this is so amazing, and we're gonna watch it together. And then it was like, episode
after episode after episode, and I was just like, I don't
have the stamina for this. (Katherine laughs) I filmed all these episodes. I did it. I can't now go back and watch it again. I mean, I watched a lot of them. And what's interesting is I had not really watched
a lot of "Grey's," because we were always working. - When I was on, I watched
every episode when it aired. I was anxious to see how it
all turned out, you know? - Yeah, see, me, that was like, not good for my mind to do that. So I avoided that. So many, many of the episodes, I was seeing for the
first time with Stells. - That's incredible. - Yeah, it's really interesting. And it's pretty cool to
be a part of something that's lasted this long.
- I bet. - That now they can go back and see, like, when you see your daughter's
face, and she watches you, I mean, a lot of people
don't have the privilege to be able to say like, oh, their kids get to see
what they do every day. - Yeah. Yeah.
- Right? Like, you can talk about that with her, and watch it with her, you know? And she gets to see that.
- I feel like I would just be, like, there would be scenes
that I would be so embarrassed to be sitting next to
her watching. (laughs) You know?
- (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure that, for sure.
- There's a few that I'd be like, can we
fast-forward at this moment? - Yeah, the sex with the ghost. - Yeah, that.
- Yeah, the sex with the ghost, that's right.
- Yeah, maybe that, mm-hmm. - Remember the deer?
- Maybe they're like, oral sex with the ghost while somebody else was
watching in the room? Like, I don't know.
- I didn't wanna get that graphic.
- I don't know how I explain that. (laughs) - But I remember, there was like one episode with a deer. - Oh God, yes, yes.
- Do you remember the deer? - And I worked with that
deer again, years later. - (laughs) Stop.
- Can you believe it? I'm not kidding. - Are you serious?
- I'm not exaggerating. I'm serious, I worked with
that deer, like years later, on a different show I was doing. And it was like this moment where my character's driving in a car, and this beautiful deer
stops and crosses the road, like a dark road with no
one around, but in the city. And she has this moment, and
I'm like, I know that deer. (Ellen laughs) I saved that deer on "Grey's Anatomy." - Really?
- Yeah. - You knew for sure it was the same deer? - No, they told me.
- Oh. Oh, they told you. - But it would be amazing if
I had recognized the deer. - Well, those Hollywood
deers have resumes. - Yeah, absolutely. They were like, Katherine, remember when you took
this photo with the deer? This is the same deer. Yeah, good times. - We also had a lion
on the show once, too. - I don't think I was there for that. - There was, I don't know
what episode or what season, but there was a scene
with Meredith in a car, and a lion just crosses
the street. (laughs) - Why? - I don't know. - (laughs) Neat. Wow, incredible. - Yeah. - The imagery, just gorgeous. (both laughing) - 19 seasons, I'm surprised
there isn't a giraffe. (Katherine laughs) I mean... (Ellen chuckles) - Good times. Really good times.
- Yeah, for sure. It's definitely a way to
make a living, for sure. - (laughs) Yeah, yeah. - Very serious way to make a living.
- Yeah, really serious, serious work, very serious.
- Yes. - When did you know
that "Grey's" was a hit? - The first indication was... Do you remember, we filmed
the whole first season? - [Katherine] Yeah. - [Ellen] It was going
to air on Sunday night after "Desperate Housewives."
- That's right. - And then we came into work the next day, and everybody was freaking out. The ratings were huge.
- 'Cause the numbers were so good. - Yeah, and then those numbers,
I mean, I don't even know if people can count that
high anymore, back then. Those are, when you look
at network numbers now, you're like, hmm. - I know. - But yeah.
- Everything's changed. - And then we went on hiatus. And then the show was
airing as we were on break. - That's what-
- I'm so grateful there was no social media then. - I know. - We literally would be- - I know, me too.
- Would have lost our minds. - I know.
- Even more than we already lost our minds. - Yeah, it didn't take a lot.
- No. - And that was really just gonna
throw it way over the edge. No, I just remember that we
were, I was nervous, at least, I think, that they were not gonna air it. There was a moment where it was unclear if they were gonna air it. They didn't like it. - Remember they changed the name? They tried to change the name. Do you remember that day on set? - No. - That is a day I really remember because the mood on set was like, oh, they're gonna change the name of the show to "Complications." And it was just like somebody had died, and everybody on set felt that
we'd been working so hard, we loved this show so much, and if they change the name
to this, it'll never go. It's a horrible title. And it was just this collective,
like, mourning on set. But that only lasted for a day or two, and then they changed it back.
- I don't even, yeah, like, I don't remember that. But I just remember them like, it felt like the network
or the studio or somebody didn't quite like what we were doing. And it was unclear if they
were even going to air it. And then they did. And just what you said happened. And then we had to go to upfronts, and everything had changed. Happy to be here, this is great. - We'll be very nice and not
name the executive who almost- - Hold it.
- Took a nap on Shonda Rhimes. (laughs) We won't, I won't say it. I'm not saying, but he almost
slept on Shonda Rhimes, almost didn't air that pilot. You can do your research
and find out who it was. - Yeah. Yeah. (Ellen laughs) Anywho, anyway, so then-
- Imagine being that guy. - I think he still is that guy. - Yeah. (laughs) - I think he owns a vineyard
now, in Napa, anywho. (both laughing) So then we ended up in New York.
- And now he's in the liquor store. (laughs) - Yeah. (laughs) So then we ended up in
New York for the upfronts, going to promote the second season or, you know, do that whole thing. And it was crazy, Ellen. People were stopping us on the street. Like, New Yorkers were
stopping us on the street to tell us how much they loved the show. And it was truly water
cooler like experience for- - Yeah, have you been to New
York? It's still happening. - Yeah.
- You can't believe it. You're like, wait, what is... Am I-
- Yeah, but now they're all like 14, and so. - Yeah. Yes. Now they're all 14. It's true. - (laughs) But it was incredible. I just, I was like, I was just so incredibly relieved. I was just thrilled in
every sense of the word. I was like, on cloud nine. Because it just felt like a lifetime of trying to get something into the world that people actually wanted to watch. And like that, (snaps fingers) like overnight, that show hit. - And you had been on
"Roswell" before that. - Yeah, and that had a very small- - How many seasons did you do-
- Very devoted audience. - Of "Roswell"? - We did three, I think. Yeah, three, just three seasons. And that's wonderful and great, but it didn't have a big audience, which is why we didn't have more seasons and why we were always, like, afraid, is it gonna go another season? It's always that anxiety, you know, of, am I gonna be out of a job? And "Grey's" turned it all
around, literally overnight. And it wasn't overnight for any of us, but the success of the
show was almost overnight, which is crazy. - Yeah, that anxiety is
why I stayed for so long, is like that thought of, all actors have that, figure
out when the next job is, and where do I have to go, and where- - Yeah, and you are.
- Yeah, it's- - Like, as soon as one ends,
you're out of work. (chuckles) - Right.
- And you might feel confident that you'll get more work, but you are, in the moment, out of work. So you better be prepared
for that, you know? And that's the nature
of this particular job. - Yeah. - But, like, do you feel with Meredith, like, are you letting her go,
or is she coming with you? - Oh, no, I have been on the show so long, I'm happy to let that go. - Yeah? (laughs) - You know, we're past that point. The truth is, what becomes
challenging is, for me, I really need to make sense of things. And I really need to see
evolution and growth. And with network television specifically, there has to be some
consistency for the audience. The audience wants familiarity. The writers get stuck in the consistency of something. And it's harder. Which, we have such an
incredible fan base. They're so loyal. They'll literally come along
with us no matter what we do. I think it's okay for Meredith to stop making bad decisions. - (laughs) Yeah.
- Or, you know, be able to... Like, one of my frustrations is sort of the Nick and Meredith of it all. Scott Speedman plays Meredith's
love interest, Nick Marsh. And I love Speedman. He's fantastic. And somehow, Meredith can't figure out how to make a relationship work,
still, after all this time. And I guess, if she were to make it work, then where's the conflict?
- Where's the drama? - You know, there has to be conflict. And it's not that I don't think
there shouldn't be conflict. There should be conflict. I guess just have different ideas about what the conflict should be.
- Yeah, what that looks like. Yeah.
- Yeah. - I called, you know. - I know. This has been a lot, a fire living, in a hotel, moving. - No, I know it's been a lot. But what, what was your plan? You were just gonna leave
and not call me back? And you're gonna move across the country without a conversation? I, I, I, I, I, I don't get that. - I felt so happy to be able to step away and felt like I accomplished
something incredible. - Everywhere-
- Yes, you did. - As I'm sure everywhere you go, - Yes.
- I mean, people just run up to me and say, I love you. - Yeah.
- It's weird and strange. But it's just love coming at me.
- No, it's so lovely. And what I find disconcerting
is how young those people are that are coming up now.
- Yes. - I didn't understand what was happening. I was like, I don't understand how you've even seen this show. I don't think you were
alive when we started it. - Right, Netflix.
- You know? Netflix, and it took me a minute. I'm a little slow, okay, but
I finally figured out, like, oh, they're streaming it on, that's why. They're watching it on Netflix,
this younger generation. And I had this girl... I had just had Joshua, so maybe I didn't look my best, all right. I'd literally just had him. But I was in the liquor store. Again, I'd just had a baby. (both laughing) I needed some wine. And this girl, this man comes
up to me and goes, excuse me, I'm so sorry, but my daughter is such a, you know, she's kind of
freaking out over here. Would you mind talking
to her for a minute? And I was like, yes, of course. Sure, sure, come on over, honey. You know, and she goes, um, are you... Do you know "Grey's Anatomy"? And I was like, I do, yeah. And she goes, do you
know, um, Izzie Stevens? And I go, yes, I do. And she goes, are you her mother? (Ellen laughs) I was like, how old are you? (laughs) And she was like, I'm 17. I was like, go away. (Ellen laughs) Don't ever talk to me again. (laughs) But that's what's happening. I mean, thankfully, that hasn't happened again.
- Oh my god. - But it's 17-year-olds and 15-year-olds and, you know, seriously,
kids that were not born when we started the show, coming up and going, oh my god, are you the girl on
"Grey's Anatomy," right? And it's shocking and wonderful and lovely and adorable
that they love it so much, but they do. I mean, perhaps there are other shows that have had that kind of rebirth with a younger generation, especially because of Netflix and your ability to go
and stream something that, you know.
- A lot of them, "Friends." - [Katherine] Oh yeah,
"Friends," of course. - [Ellen] "Gossip Girl" is a big one. - Really?
- The kids love "Gossip Girl." That's what Stella's watching right now. - Oh, I don't know. I watched that when it was on, and I don't want Naleigh to know that kids can do that kind of stuff. - Oh, she's gonna find it on TikTok. - I'm sure she already is well aware. - She's gonna know. - I prefer my bubble. - Have ya seen "Euphoria"? - No.
- Oh. - I mean, no.
- Just don't, that's- - We are definitely not watching that. - No, no.
- That's very upsetting. I tried, and it's a no. (Ellen laughs) No. (laughs) - So, okay, so this is a real thing. So my daughter and her friends, you know, they sit around
and they're like, oh, she's a "pick me" girl. - (laughs) Oh my God.
- And then like- - Is that what that means?
- Yes. So I'm like, what's a "pick me" girl? - Oh no. - So they were like, ya know. - Pick me.
- Girls who are like- - Choose me.
- Pick me, choose me. And I'm like, uh, do you... Uh, hello? Do you know who invented
the "pick me" girl? (Katherine laughs) - And listen.
- That's incredible. - I don't know if you remember, but I fought that speech so hard. - Yes, I do.
- That's another, like, really interesting thing about life is some things that I
was, like, so against, and I was like, why would I beg a man? I can't beg a man on TV.
- I know. - This is so embarrassing.
- It's so hard, right? - And then it turns out to be, like, one of the most successful
scenes, or the most famous scenes ever.
- It was beautiful. - So pick me. Choose me. Love me. - I didn't know that
that's what that meant. 'Cause my daughter has said it to me. - Oh.
- And I said, what does that mean,
she's a "pick me" girl? And she goes, well, you know, she's just like, wants a lot of attention and wants people to, like,
pick her, choose her. And I was like, oh,
and it didn't register. - Right.
- And now I'm like... I just, it's crazy. It's crazy when art starts to,
like, bleed into your life. Do you remember the scene... I remember my mom called
you after you'd done a particularly complicated,
difficult emotional scene, and had, like, called to tell
you how proud of you she was, and that she thought you did just such a beautiful job with it. And I was talking to
her about it recently, 'cause she obviously... Oh, she says hello, by the way. She just loves you.
- I love Nancy so much. Nancy should have her own show. - Yeah, she-
- She's- - We've joked about her
having a podcast or something that she wants to call
"It's Just My Opinion." (Ellen laughs) I went, please don't. Please don't do this.
It will end everything. (laughs) Anyway, but I don't remember... I said, Mom, what scene was it? And she was like, I think
it was with her mother, like on the episode with Kate. Do you remember? - I don't remember, but I've always had an incredible relationship
with your mother. We've always gotten along great. - Yeah, she just loves you.
My mother loves strong women. - Yeah, she is a hoot.
She's amazing, your mother. - Well, she just loves you. And there are so many wonderful things that came out of the show, like those kinds of relationships. And we did have a lot of
fun, sometimes too much fun. I remember a lot of- - Friday nights were sometimes
a little too much fun. - A little too much fun.
- Set Fraturdays. - Yeah.
- With, like, you have to understand, like, people, you have to understand,
it's like a Friday night, two in the morning, and you
gotta run real cow bowel. (Katherine laughs) Does anybody know-
- Explain to us- - What running cow bowel is?
- What running cow bowel is. - See, it's like the intestines, and you have to find Judy dolls. - That's right.
- Remember the Judy dolls? - Oh Jesus, yeah. - But we used to use... This is animal, this is terrible. And Katie would always advocate, and try to speak up and say things, but we used a lot of real animal parts in the surgeries back in the day. And what happens is, after
hours and hours and hours under the lights, you know, it obviously starts to smell terrible. You're wearing a mask, so that helps. But it's just not the
most pleasant experience. And your feet are tired. And you're staring at
this cow heart and bowel. And it's just like-
- Brains. - Yeah, it was-
- I just remember, by like, I wanna say season two, we'd become so desensitized to it in a way that we would, like, take our second meal, and we'd be standing on our marks like, eating, like, ramen
over the cow intestines. And they'd be like,
okay, we're ready to go. And you'd be like, okay,
here, thank you so much for... Looking for the Judy dolls, you know. Like, we just stopped caring, it was so... That's when you know that
you're like, I need a break. Things have gone too far. - That's actually the
one place, in the OR, is when memories will
come flooding back to me. - Yeah, that's so interesting. - Yeah, we had a lot of fun. - And I think every one
of us sort of ended up on that table, didn't we? - Yeah, for sure. - I think every one of us.
- I mean, Meredith was on it many times.
- You were the first patient, like, first doctor that became a patient of Seattle Grace, right? - Mm-hmm, did I get blown up? No, I didn't get blown up.
- No, you didn't blow up. - I almost blew up. - You blew up.
- I almost blew up, Katie. But Kyle Chandler blew up instead.
- But then he blew up. - [Ellen] No, he didn't blow up. Oh no, he did blow up.
- He did blow up. - Right, he blew up.
- Yeah, he blew up. - [Ellen] Okay, yeah. - And then Sandra, I think, ended-
- He had it coming. - (laughs) He had it coming. And then Sandra ended up the hospital bed because she had a, how do you say that? - Etopic pregnancy.
- Etopic pregnancy. - Right.
- I remember that. Because I didn't even know that that kind of thing could happen. - [Ellen] Kudos to Shonda Rhimes for talking about that stuff. - Yeah, no, kudos to Shonda for
changing the entire dialogue of network television at
a time that, you know, really didn't have women
in those kinds of roles or positions in the story,
didn't have as much diversity. I was young. I wasn't
paying that much attention. It just, it felt like a job,
but a great job, but a job. Like, I didn't realize it
was as impactful, you know, as it kind of was. - You know, hindsight is 20/20. - Yes, always. - It gives you great perspective, and it's definitely a gift to have it. - Yeah, there's so many memories, so many really good memories, so many times where we
laughed so much and so hard, and the crew was so mad at us because we couldn't pull our together to get through a take, you know? - I remember the prom.
- Yes, oh. - That prom, sleeping on the floor.
- The floor of the hospital. - Of that, yeah, hospital in Northridge. I remember cutting the LVAD wire. - Oh yeah.
- In that room. - That was on set.
- Where you were filming that scene, Meredith wasn't in that scene. - [Katherine] That's
right, you come in after. - But I was, like, standing in
the hallway when you guys... And there was like, no one actually even wanted
you to do that scene. We were like, no, just change it. Like, let's do anything to change it. Let's not actually film this happening. - (laughs) I just like, that whole storyline
was so intriguing to me, and it was really fun. It was fun to do, and Jeffrey
Dean Morgan is a dream to work with and a great guy,
and that was all really fun. And I wanted so badly to
nail that scene, right? I just wanted it to feel the
way it was written on the page. I wanted it to be as,
like, heart-wrenching and all of the things. And I don't usually do this as an actor. I don't, like, do that whole, go into the dark place
and listen to the, like, really, the music that's
gonna tear my soul apart, and think about all the
things in my life that... And the worst was that I, like, really went there and recalled. 'Cause I was seven when my brother died, but we were in the hospital for a week. And I don't enjoy
thinking about that much, or that week in the
hospital, or him in that bed. But I chose to do that for that scene. And I don't think I would put myself in that head space again to achieve that. I think I would try harder to
just act, you know? (laughs) - Well, but those moments
are what made the show as iconic as it is. - Right. - I think that's why it's still around, because of the foundation
that we laid was so strong. - Well, you're all welcome.
- So I think it was... (both laughing) I think it was, albeit painful, but worth it.
- Yeah. - Because art is always worth it. Because people watch that scene, and it's cathartic for them. They feel something, I'm sure. - I hope so, yeah. - Most people have lost
people, and, you know, everybody loves a good cry, so. - Yeah. - We made people feel things, Katie. And that is the biggest gift, as an actor, to be able to make people feel. - Yeah. - Is, I think, pretty cool. - I do too. I think it's the the
point, for me at least. I just wanna go out there and do that. - Yeah. - This is what I do
for a living, you know? - So you live in Utah. And do you ever bring Naleigh
or the kids here to LA? - Let's see, I haven't been
back to LA, except today, in two years. A lot of filming now is in, the last two projects I've
done have been Canada. I can't bring them as much anymore because they're 14 and 11, and they're, to take them out of- - School.
- Their peer groups. - And their, you know, school
groups and their activities, they're just not down for it in the same way they used to be. It kind of breaks my heart. - Yeah, for sure, it's
gotta be, it's lonely. - It is a very gypsy-like lifestyle. But now with the kids and being a mother, it's like, I don't wanna go alone. And I did go alone for
all of "Firefly Lane," and it was brutal. And I'm parenting via FaceTime. And at one point, I didn't
even have my dogs. (laughs) - So let's talk about "Firefly Lane." - Okay. - [Ellen] So there were two books written for "Firefly Lane," or three? - Yes, there are two books. The first is "Firefly Lane." And then I didn't actually
read the second book, because it's post the
story we were telling. So we didn't tell that book. We didn't get into that story. But yeah, it has a very definitive ending. Kate dies so. (laughs) Shit, did I just... I'm so sorry. Did I ruin
that for everyone? (laughs) - But what, I mean-
- It's brutal. - But that is-
- It's so brutal. - The amazing thing about streaming is there is a beginning,
a middle, and an end. - Yes, yes.
- Which is, you know, on network television, the challenge is- - Yeah, you don't know. And you have no idea, going into network, like, are we gonna have the opportunity to really tell this whole story, or are we gonna, you know, are we gonna end before we could begin? - Right.
- Or are we gonna go so long and be unprepared to continue the story? So yeah, with streaming, it was really... That was my first experience
doing anything for streaming, and it was, I mean, I loved it. I had a extraordinary experience, and it was great.
- And you're a producer on that as well?
- Yes, yeah. - This is Tully Hart, bringing the news straight to you. (laughs) That's good. This is Tully, ooh, Hart, about to burn the office
down with my curling iron. (Tully sighs) This is Tully Hart, bringing the news straight to you. - It's odd what they're doing. So essentially, it's a season
two that they shot 16 episodes and then decided to air in two parts. So let's just call it three seasons, 'cause that's what it feels like to me. - Right, that's a lot of episodes, though, for a streaming show, 16 episodes. - It was, and I think it was, like, always intended, conceivably, that they would split it into two parts. But I liked it, and I didn't. You know, it's the same, it's nine months, or, I guess, maybe a little
less than nine months, 'cause "Grey's" is about
nine months a year, right, for those 24 episodes?
- Yeah. We do less episodes now. Since COVID, we've-
- Oh, do you? - Never done 24 again, but- - Because that's brutal. It's like, you know,
that's most of the year, and you're on set, and you're committed, and you're in it at least 12 hours a day. And so anything else kind
of has to fall to the back. But the good part of that was just, you're in the rhythm of it. We're already here. We're already filming. Let's get those last six, instead of having to
come back and re-team up. - And the scripts are already
written when you start? Are they finished, or are the writers-
- Many of them, which I also really like. So we had at least the first
four already written and ready before we started filming. I always felt with network television, you're always like right down to the wire with that script coming in night before we start
shooting the episode, which just feels like
sensory overload sometimes, and frenetic, but I can't even imagine what those writers have
to go through to do that. I don't think that they could
have dropped all 16 at once. It would've been overwhelming, I feel. I think the audience needed a
breath before this last bit, because it gets really heavy. - Intense.
- Yeah. - And then you at least are
able to shake that right off and go home and be with your kids. That's the amazing-
- It took a minute. Yeah.
- Did it? - I had a hard time letting Tully go. Like, it was hard to
disassociate or something. - Oh, I know, women aren't
supposed to be angry. Hurt or sad, sure. But angry? Oof, better hide
it, better lock that up. But I am angry with the
man who is suing me. He took my show, he took my
voice, so I'm taking it back. - There was so much about her
that really intimidated me. She's incredibly confident.
She's incredibly self-assured. She's got a bit of an ego on her, and she's just really like, walks into any situation, you know, feeling like she's gonna kill it. And I just thought, I don't know, I related more to Kate and
the struggle between, like, being a working mother and all of that. And I remember, at the time, Josh said, "Katie, you know, you're
looking for a character that feels challenging to you. Do the one that scares you." And I was like, okay. And then I ended up really
borrowing a lot of Tully for me. And so then I felt like, you
know, having to let her go, am I gonna lose those bits of her that influenced who I've become? And I just really fell in
love with that friendship and fell in love with Sarah Chalkie and... Chalke, she calls herself
Chalkie. She confuses me. - That's like therapy you get paid for. - I guess so, yeah. I guess so, exactly. Well, tell me about... 'Cause there's a couple of things I've been sort of fascinated,
as I've gotten older, as I've kind of evolved as an actor, and the idea of directing
really interested me, and still interests me to a degree, but I find it really intimidating. How did that come about on "Grey's"? - So, I think, around season 12, Shonda Rhimes brought in Debbie Allen. You know, with any long-running show, you need gusts of wind to blow in, right, to shake things up and try
to keep the energy alive, and keep it going in a positive direction. And she could, you know,
see that I was restless. And so she suggested it. She's a, you know, big director, among every other thing that she does. And she was really
encouraging me to do it. - That's awesome.
- And I love her so much. So I was like, you know
what, for you, I will do it. And she taught me, you know,
how to do that first one. So that was like, you know, having one of the best
teachers you can have. It was a really interesting experience that the script that I ended up getting was about a character losing their mother. Kelly McCreary's mother would pass away, played by LaTanya Jackson. And, you know, me losing my
mother at such a young age has shaped my whole entire life. - Yeah. - So I was like, wow,
this is kind of wild. It was a really amazing episode, and to her credit, Shonda let my cut air. - That's incredible. - Yeah, which is really unusual. - Yes. (laughs) Always, yeah.
- Definitely, she did not have to do that.
- Yeah. - And it's funny, I went to Las Vegas last
night to see a show, and somebody stopped me and said, "The episodes you directed
were my favorite." - Oh, that's incredible. - No one's ever said that to me before. So that was kind of cool. So I did that episode. My cut aired. And why I loved it was because it's showing the
audience what my version of an episode of "Grey's
Anatomy" looks like, which is what I always thought, if I'm going to direct episodes,
this is what it should be. And then I did it one more time, and it was completely changed, and I thought it didn't really make sense for me to do all of that work, then to have someone come in and say, we're not gonna use that;
we're gonna use this. We're not gonna use that song;
we're gonna use this song. And then it didn't look anything
like what I had envisioned. And so it didn't make
sense to do all that work and not have-
- Keep it going, yeah. - Yeah, so then I don't do it anymore. I would say that you
shouldn't be intimidated. The truth is, is on a show like "Grey's," it's so established, it has
to be a certain formula, right?
- Right. Well, where's the fun in that? You know, it-
- It's not very creative. - Right.
- Network TV directing is not. It's not a creative thing. It's really just a-
- So then is about more, like, that conversation with the actors? Is it more about, like, the music? Like, where do you get to put
your creative stamp on it? - I wouldn't say network TV is the place to do that.
- Okay. - Obviously, there's
exceptions to the rule. I think "Alaska Daily" is a
beautifully directed show. It's on ABC, and it stars Hilary Swank. - You've just given me something to watch. Thank you.
- Yeah. - (laughs) I've just been reading lately. - Ooh, so what's the last thing
you watched that you loved? - "Daisy Jones & The Six." - Oh, okay, okay.
- Oh my God. - [Ellen] Taylor Jenkins Reid, yeah. - [Katherine] Oh my god,
I loved that so much. - [Ellen] Did you read the books? - I did, years ago, and I
remember my sister-in-law, like, text me, like, Josh would
be a great Billy Graham, and I was like, have you
see Josh on camera? (laughs) He doesn't talk much acting. (laughs) I thought that was real hilarious. But so I was really intrigued
to see it actually on film. And I thought they did such
a beautiful job with that. I was riveted. I loved it so much. And no, I did not watch
that with the kids. I mean, 'cause I'm always
looking for something that we can watch as a family. I mean, we've got some big
age, you know, differences. I did watch "Ginny &
Georgia" with Naleigh, but I had to stop it a lot. - Right, we're gonna fast
forward through that part. - Or just even be like, can I explain this moment
to you, because, you know- - I didn't watch it. - It's great. I loved it. It's really fun. And I actually loved watching it with her, because I felt like it
gave me an opportunity to do some guidance through TV storylines. It's my favorite way to parent. (Ellen laughs) But it's not for Adalaide.
It's not for the 11-year-old. And my six-year-old, of
course, is not gonna watch it. So there's not a lot we can watch together aside from animated. But what do you watch, other
than "Grey's," with Stella? - I don't watch a lot with Stella, except, you know, we
were watching "Grey's." I loved "White Lotus," which
I didn't let her watch. I thought that was
amazing. Did you watch it? - I watched like the first
maybe four or five episodes, and then I don't know why we stopped. We must have been traveling.
- You have to watch season two, it's so good.
- Okay. - And then the other perfect show was a show called "The Offer." And I can't believe it's about the making of "The Godfather." - Oh my god, yes. - Did you watch it?
- Oh, yes. - I can't believe every
single actor on that show didn't get every award nomination. I just thought-
- Agreed. - They were so good.
- They were incredible. And so was our Justin Chambers.
- Our Justin Chambers. - Oh my god, he was so-
- Played Marlon Brando. - [Katherine] So good. - [Ellen] He was so good. And, like, he literally
looks just like him. - It was eerie.
- And I've always said, we've always said that about him.
- Yeah, yeah. We kind of always did the sort of like, you're the Marlon, you know? Like, that's crazy because
he really nailed it, and he was... It was so fun to see him in that role. - Yeah, it was a great show.
- It was really good, yeah. - So those are my two favorites recently. - Excellent, okay. So yeah, Ellen, I mean, it is really sort of
devastating for the world that Meredith has left Seattle Grace. - [Group] Surprise! (attendee chuckling) - Well, this is very thoughtful, and ridiculous because
I'm only going to Boston, and you know I'll probably
be here next week. - For God's sakes, Grey, will
you just let us toast you? (group laughing) - To Meredith Grey. (group cheering) - First of all, what was it
like that last day on set? - So it's a little bit of trickery, because I'm not completely gone. - (gasps) What? - I am in the finale. - Oh my god. - The storyline is very cool. I don't wanna give too much away. But there's a lot of real research that's changing very rapidly
about Alzheimer's disease and about-
- Interesting. - What they believe is the
cause of Alzheimer's disease. It's pretty controversial. So Meredith's character
left to go to Boston because her daughter needed
to go to a special school. And Jesse Williams character,
Jackson, lives in Boston, and he offered her a job
to work at that hospital and do research. So the character moves to Boston. And then in the finale,
we catch up with her and see what she's been working on. - Oh, fascinating.
- And then- - I love this.
- I will be making some appearances,
hopefully, next year- - Okay, so we don't have to- - If I can find some time.
- Completely say goodbye. - No, it's not a complete-
- Okay. - It's not a complete goodbye. And I think we've got an
interesting story to tell. I certainly think it's pretty fascinating. - Yeah.
- The medical piece of it is pretty fascinating,
then I just have to... I'm gonna shoot a show for Hulu. - Yeah, so you're gonna do that in between-
- We're gonna start that in September, we're gonna start
the Hulu show in September. And the working title is "The Orphan," gonna be a very interesting role to play. I mean, I haven't played
another character in 18 years. - Yeah. - That's crazy, crazy town.
- Yeah. (laughs) - Crazy town. And this one is, it's intense. And so it'll be an interesting
experiment for me to see. You know, I'm super excited to do it. I love the team. It's been really fun to
develop something new. And, you know, we're just
gonna cross our fingers and jump out of the
plane, and pull the chute, and hope that shit opens. - Yeah, (laughs) I love it.
- You know? (laughs) - I love it, but that's kind of how you-
- That's all we can do. - I've seen, from you, that you kind of approach
things like that. You don't let much stop you, Miss Ellen. I think that's amazing.
- No. - And it makes me think
about the first movie I ever saw you in, and I was sort of just enamored instantly, and I feel like the world
was, in "Moonlight Mile." And then I thought about
it, and I was like, well, you were working with Dustin Hoffman and Susan Sarandon and Jake Gyllenhaal. Was that at all intimidating or- - Oh, yeah, I completely
choked my first day on set. I was terrified, and I was just- - Really? I can't picture it. - I really, you know, was like... It was like Al Pacino's
moment on "The Godfather," when the studio was like, what's he doin'? Get 'im outta there. (Katherine laughs) They were like, what are you doing? You're gonna get fired.
You are gonna get fired. - I can't picture it.
- I, like, couldn't pull it together. On my first day, I had like a nine-page scene, where I'm like, jumping in the
mail bag, grabbing the cat, walking over here, and I really, I couldn't walk and talk at the same time. I, like, just showed up, in this movie, with all these people, Holly
Hunter and Susan and Dustin. Yeah, I really choked and
almost got fired that first day. They were just like,
we got a live one here. - Oh my god.
- Snap out of it, kid. - (laughs) And you did. - And then I did. Someone came and talked to
me in my trailer at lunch. Oh, I think it was Dustin. And he said, "You only need to
be good in very small pieces. They're gonna shoot
this, and they edit it." - Right.
- Stop thinking. 'Cause it was an eight-page, it was super intimidating,
because it was eight pages, and I was thinking I had to- - Nail it all the way through.
- Nail the whole entire thing all the way through, and he was like, you only have to be good in pieces. Stop putting so much pressure on yourself. - Wow. - And that was amazing advice. I give it to people now. I gave it to the new cast of interns that came onto "Grey's." It stayed with me, that piece of advice. - That's great advice.
I'm gonna remember it. - And the movie turned out okay. - It's a great, yeah, it's beautiful. - So one of the things that is so obvious about "Grey's" and why the show has
impacted people so much is because we were so emotional, right?
- Mm-hmm. - We were able to
generate so much emotion. And it always results
in amazing performances. Whether actors are torturing themselves, or we're torturing each other, (Katherine laughs) the result is good, and
the writers know that. And when Izzie left, there
was just so much going on, and it's really hard to show up on set when there's so much... And then, there wasn't even social media. - I know.
- There's so much attention. - It's so crazy.
- Can you even imagine? Because it felt like there
was a lot of attention on everything we did, all the time.
- Yeah, there was. - And everything was amplified. And that added to the emotion. And somehow that made the scenes better, and that made the show better, and that made the show more popular. And then Izzie leaves the show, and that was emotional for everybody. - Yeah, I think, I was
like up here, you know, in my head space, in my
gut, in my mind, in my life. I was just vibrating at way
too high of a level of anxiety. So for me, it's kind
of all a bit of a blur. And it took me years to
learn how to deal with that, to master it. Well, I can't even say
that I've mastered it, but to even know to work on it, that kind of anxiety and
fear and just, you know, stress is stress, everybody
experiences stress, everybody goes through
those times in their lives, and if you leave stress too
long, unmanaged and unaddressed, it can be debilitating. - But I also feel like, and this is not specific to
the character of Izzie leaving, but stress on sets, I
know a lot of actors, I hear a lot of stories, I don't hear about a lot of support. - Yeah.
- And that's one of the things I try to do now as a producer, specifically on "Grey's," is try to offer support, try to have a place for
people to talk through things, to talk about things-
- That's huge. - For actors to feel heard.
- That's huge. - Because the anxiety and
the stress is overwhelming. - Yeah. - And actors are typically young and emotional creatures.
- Yeah. (laughs) - And are meant to just get
on with it and deal with it. There's no examples of positivity. There was no one teaching
me how to behave. - Right. - There was no one to tell me, this is okay, this is not okay. You see someone doing
this, oh, well, okay, well, I'll just do that,
because that seems to work. It was just, look at it, look
at it, look at it, look at it. Let's look at it, but
let's all just stand around and look at it and talk about it, but let's not actually try
to do something meaningful- - To solve it, yeah.
- To calm it down. And I worry about young
actors when I see things, I see young actors on shows, or you hear things, or
whatever, and you just know that there's probably
not a lot of support. - Yeah. - If they're portraying
drug addicts on shows, and everybody knows they're
a drug addict in real life, and everybody knows,
you know, and it's like, we're fine to exploit that, because it's a successful show, and it's making a lot of
money, and no one really cares. And that person could end
up dead, and then it'll be, everybody will be like, oh my god. - Yeah.
- You know, whoa, you know, we didn't see that coming. Really? 'Cause probably
everybody saw it coming. - Yeah. - There's a very exploitive
nature to what we do. - Yeah. - Thank God now, you know, there are, I mean, intimacy coordinators create a whole nother slew of problems, that's... I mean, but the intention
behind it is good. - Yeah. - The execution is always sometimes weird, because how do you train to
be an intimacy coordinator? - I had this experience on "Firefly Lane." I'm like, (scoffs) I'm an
old Hollywood broad, bitch. I know what I'm doing. You don't have to tell me how
to make out on camera, okay. Like, it was like, I
was so awkward about it. I was like, why are you, this
is such an odd conversation. And I ended up loving this woman so deeply and being so grateful for her, because she protected us in a way that I didn't realize
how unprotected we were. I didn't even really quite realize having somebody else stand there
and say, she won't do that, find another way to shoot
it, I was like, (gasps) oh. - Or find another way to write it.
- This is great. I don't have to be-
- Find another way to write it.
- The bad guy, and she's protecting me, and I was so grateful to her as well, because we did have
young girls on the set. They were playing Kate
and Tully at 14 and 15, and they had, you know,
stuff they had to do. There was a rape scene. And for her to be there
protecting them, I was like, oh, I felt this weight off of me in a way that I didn't feel like I
had to somehow find a way to fight those battles for these girls. And, you know, I'm always the bad guy. It's just, people like
me to be the bad guy. I like giving them that, you know? We can make each other happy. - You know what I love? Not to interrupt you, but-
- No, please. - There's two roles women
fit into: victim or villain. - (laughs) I'm always the villain. - People will always see you as one thing. And the women who are
victims are only victims because they don't have
the guts to be the villain. - Ah, you should write a book. (Ellen laughs) - I will do-
- They can't stand- - The cover illustration.
- To be unliked. Another super profound thing
that someone said to me, my manager, John Carrabino,
who is a charismatic gentleman and always has very wise words, had a big negotiation,
and they did a piece in "The Hollywood Reporter" about it. And there was a lot of anxiety around it. And he said, "Are you
prepared to be unpopular?" And I had no idea-
- Good point, yeah. - What he was talking about. And I said, you know, what do you mean? And he said, "Well, when
this article comes out, and they talk about how
much money you make, you will instantly become the
least popular person on set." - Oh. - No one will be happy for you. - Right. - So you have to be okay
with not being liked. And when you get to a
certain level of success, if you're not okay with
certain people not liking you, some people are not gonna like you, if you can't handle that, then you'll only always be a victim. - Yeah, no, that's
fascinating. I love that. And I think I was so naive. Listen, I went and I got my soapbox, and I put my soapbox down,
and I got on my soapbox, and I had some things to say. And I felt really
passionate about this stuff. And I felt really strongly. I felt so strongly that I really, I also got a megaphone out,
on my soapbox, but I had no... There was no part of me that
imagined a bad reaction. I felt really justified in
how I felt about it, you know, and where I was coming from. So it took me a minute to really stop being the victim because of the reaction
that I got, and finding, and tuning out all that
noise, 'cause I'd been... I'd spent most of my life,
I think most women do, kind of being in that
people-pleasing mode. - Mm-hmm, sure.
- It's really disconcerting when you feel like you have
really displeased everybody, you know, and it was not
my intention to do so, but I had some things to say, you know? And I didn't think I was gonna
get such a strong reaction. And so it took me until like,
probably my mid to late 30s to really get back to
tuning out all of the noise and going, no, but who are you? Who are you, without all of
the opinions of who you are? Are you this bad person?
Are you ungrateful? Are are you unkind?
Are you unprofessional? Are you difficult? Are you these things? 'Cause I was confused.
I thought maybe I was. You know, and I literally
believed that version and felt such shame for such a long time, and then had to go, wait,
wait, who am I listening to? I'm not even listening to
myself. I know who I am. I don't need anybody to tell me who I am. And there are very few people whose opinion of me really, truly matters. And I would say that
everybody in this world needs to find a way to let
their opinions of themselves be the most important thing that matters. But I think that's difficult. There's gonna be people in
your life like your mother or your father or your
best friend or your spouse, whose opinion matters to you
about what they think of you. But those are the few,
for me, at this point. And I think that's when
I got really comfortable with my role as the villain- - You know what's amazing?
- And really enjoyed it. - (laughs) Listen.
Disney, are you listening? (Katherine laughs) The most amazing thing about
your soapbox and your megaphone (Katherine laughs) is that you were just a little early, because they came out with
this thing, wait for it, where everybody's got a their own box and their own megaphone, and they get a blue check.
- Yeah. - It's called Twitter. (Katherine laughs) And everybody gets on their
box with their megaphone, and they tell everybody. They tell everybody off. They tell everybody what they should do, what they shouldn't do, what they should say,
what they shouldn't say. Everybody's got an opinion now. - Yeah. - So you were just a little
ahead of your time, lady. - Damnit, I should have
waited for Twitter. (both laughing) I'd be huge. - Because now, it's like, the irony of all of that noise is we have that noise every day now. Everybody's got an opinion.
Everybody's slamming everybody. Everybody's criticizing everybody for everything that they're doing. - Yeah. - But the difference is, is they're not beautiful and successful, and all of them can hide behind that phone and have opinions. Don't call us this. Call us this. Don't address me as
this. Address me as that. Why did you let this happen? How could you people live this long and let these things happen to you? How did you women let all of
this shit go down for so long? There's so much judgment.
- Yeah. - And so much criticism
on social media now. You were just one person, and
somehow now, collectively, the whole world gets
to criticize everything and tell everybody to
fuck off, and it's okay, but when you did it... - (laughs) Yeah.
- You know. - They didn't like me (indistinct). - [Ellen] They didn't like you. - [Katherine] Oh well,
what are you gonna do? - You're too hot, Heigl. - That must be it.
- They couldn't handle it. (both laughing) - That's what I tell myself when I go to sleep at night.
- No, but they, I mean, listen, nobody likes-
- It's 'cause I'm so pretty. - A confident woman. They'd rather you be a woman
looking for your confidence than you actually be a confident woman. Because that makes them nervous. - And I think, for me, like, it was 40, I felt this, I don't know what it was, and maybe it's completely psychological, but I just felt that 40 was freedom because I didn't have
to be the young, sweet, naive, people-pleasing
ingenue anymore, you know? Like I'd outgrown it.
- I don't know about the sweet part, I don't
know that you were... I wouldn't describe you as sweet. - What are you trying to say? - Young ingenue. (Katherine laughs) Gorgeous, ballsy. A lot of amazing adjectives, but sweet? - Yeah, wasn't really that in my lexicon.
- Wasn't really one of them. - Not in those years, no.
- And that's what people had a problem with. Sweet, they can handle. - Yeah. - Strong, they can't. - It was like, I was, I think it... I would not trade
anything from my 20s back. Absolutely had no idea who
I was and what I wanted, and who I was supposed to
be, and who to make happy, and, you know, just massive
lack of self-confidence, and then "Grey's" hit, and
the success of "Grey's" hit. And I felt, I think it
was borrowed confidence. - You're also a child actor.
- Yeah. - You also grew up on sets,
being told what to do, where to go, what to say, what to feel, what to think, what to eat,
when to eat, when to sleep. - [Katherine] Yeah. - So the psychological accumulation of that control- - Yeah. I liked it, 'cause in a way,
it made life easier, right? Like, somebody else is... I don't have to make
any choices for myself. Somebody else is-
- But, of course, it results in some sort of behavior.
- Yeah, but then you grow, you get older, and you're like, they expect you to make some
choices for yourself. (laughs) And I'm like, what? And then "Grey's" hit,
and the success happened. And I think that gave me
this confidence that was, it was a false sense of confidence. That it wasn't rooted in anything real. It was rooted in something that couldn't and maybe
wouldn't always last for me. Do you know? So then I started getting real mouthy because I did have a lot to say. And there were certain
boundaries and things that I was not okay with being crossed. If you cannot stand up for
yourself in this industry, very few people will stand up for you. So you'd better learn how to, and you better be okay with
them not liking you for it. I'm definitely-
- And that's a privilege to even get to that position. - But you have to get
there even before you- - There are so many- - I try to say this, and
I just, it terrifies me. It terrifies me for the young girls. It terrified me for Roan
and Ali on "Firefly Lane." It terrifies me because I understand
the position they're in. I understand it. I was there. I get it. I remember. But you have to fight,
and you have to be brave. And if it all goes away because you fought, and you were brave, then it all goes away,
because you know what? It will not be worth it otherwise. It will not be worth it. It just won't. It just won't. And if they cannot support
our actors and our youth and these kids that are
out here busting their ass to make something work and
make some story beautiful, if they can't protect them, then I will. And I want them to protect themselves. Because I don't care if
it ends their career. I know they do, but it's
not a career worth having if you're bending all the time. - The incredible amount of attention that you got very quickly is another thing that is
sort of like a disease in this town, and in this business, where everybody gets built up, built up, built up, built up, built up, they create this thing, and then almost wait for something to happen. Not many people would know how to react to that much attention, that much focus, that much pressure, that it all of a sudden
went from here to here. And it was like, who does
know how to react or behave? Who can be the most
gracious, perfect person when all that's... No, certainly, some
people are capable of it. - Yeah.
- Okay. Zendaya is capable of it. - Yeah, she's great.
- She's, you know, perfect and gorgeous.
- Yeah. - And the most gracious young woman, and has handled an enormous
amount of attention and fame with incredibly impressive grace. - [Katherine] Yeah. - But not everybody can do that. - No. (laughs) - And there has to be some forgiveness or some grace for not everybody being able to handle every situation perfectly. I've certainly never handled
every situation perfectly. And I'd like to see other people try to walk a mile in your shoes during that time.
- Thanks, Ellen. You're a good friend.
- And let's see how they would've handled it. Because you'd literally have
to be almost superhuman, like Zendaya is superhuman, I think. - Clearly.
- Me and my kids think she's- - She might be an alien. - A superstar, a superhuman. But it's easier said than done. And it's easy to judge until you've walked a mile in those shoes. Well, this was fun. - It was so fun. I love you. I love seeing your face. I love getting to sit
across from you again. It's been eight years? - I don't know. I'm not counting. I'm so young.
- Okay, I think that's perhaps the right choice.
- I don't count. I'm too busy. I'm too busy running circles,
running in circles and- - (laughs) Well, thank you.
- Yeah. - I loved being here with you.
I loved this conversation. I loved what we got to do together. - Me too. It was so fun. And can we go eat? I'm starving? - Yeah.
- Yeah. - We're gonna drink, too, right? I am. (both laughing) (jazzy upbeat music) (jazzy upbeat music continues) (jazzy upbeat music continues)
This is fascinating, but they dropped the ball by not asking how Shonda added to the narrative of Heigl being complicated by describing the Scandal cast as a cast without Heigls. Honestly, that has been a reunion I have been eagerly waiting for and I haven't watched Grey's Anatomy in 14 seasons. If they got the surviving original cast members together, I'd totally be there.
can anyone timestamp when they talk about it I can't do the whole thing
Their dynamic is adorable. Really enjoyed watching this
Is Firefly Lane really Heigls most well known show? I guess they couldn't put Greys Anatomy behind both actors names?
More respect for Katherine Heigl. I simply loved it and the girl is still shining ❤️