[Music] oh is South Africa ready for a borderless continent that is indeed the big question so let's get to it elections 360 starts right now [Music] [Music] well good evening South Africa and welcome to the very very first edition of Elections 360 for the 2024 general elections and this is of course coming to you live on sabc News sabc 2 sabc Lei on DT and of course we have a live studio audience with us here at our studios in Oakland Park but of course I'm not alone indeed Good To Be With You Sakina good evening everybody welcome to this important important election debate signing for us tonight is import and an important topic to kick off the elections 360 show immigration as well as border management as we try to give you a a well-rounded look at the political state of play indeed Blain and of course this an issue that has been foregrounded by many of the electorate as well as the political parties themselves so we also decided to send a few of our producers over to uh the B Bridge border poost and and they went to a bridge over the Limpopo River in a place that's colloquially known as no man's land because it's neither in Zimbabwe nor is it in South Africa and we're told that they are many young zimbabweans hanging out there sitting around for hours on end uh some of them looking for Avenues of opportunity to get into South Africa others are doing trade so the election 360 team went to speak to them as well as the Border guards who are well looking out for [Music] them M Regional M I'm the chief Border guard B bridge I'm in charge of the Border guards our role is very simple we maintain other passport I passport why are you coming home and sit here with you don't have passport I want to go and find job you want to go and find job but how are you going to find job where else you don't have papers we loc stay in bed Bridge just go to the text and find job and come back we don't go far we just go the Tex ring and come back home okay yeah we trying to survive nothing else more I know majority of you here from here don't passports right yeah but we sometimes we have passports but you know travel every day you cannot stand passport every day where we are coming big how you sis say okay okay I failed to apply another all right all right passport is 3,200 3,200 yes only one passport only one passport afri Okay you cost around 400 500 some of passport passport [Music] okay all right all right okay thank you sh [Music] [Music] border guards keeping a close eye on people who are in an area called No Man's Land and with many thanks to our producer indeed blae all right and this is of course where we get the ball rolling and speaking to us this evening we've invited five political parties to come and give us their views on this very important issue representing the African National Congress Dr Aon mui from the Democratic Alliance we have Mr Adrien russan man is representing the economic freedom fighters gon McKenzie is here on behalf of the Patriotic Alliance and funin GOI is our representative for Action sa this evening so the stage is set so let me leave you for now I'm headed down to the audience and this is what it's all about right the audience interaction it is audience driven as well they're going to pose questions to the people that are after their votes looking forward to the interactions all right here we go so gentlemen as you may have noticed we've got a timer right in front of you 60 seconds is all each of you will have to make an opening statement when it's over it's over so uh please we're going to start here with Dr Aon malli to my immediate left one minute to give us your opening statements on this matter as thec thank you very much Sakina and good evening to everybody well Sakina most of the issues that are raised on immigration are found on our Manifesto firstly we have said in our Manifesto that we are going to overhaul the whole immigration system of the country to repeal the citizenship act passing 1995 the refugee act passing 1998 and the Immigration Act passed in 2002 we are also in the process and you show us already implementing the issues of simplifying Visas so as to help skilled people to come to our country and conduct skills which the country might be short of inquire nearly everything that is on our Manifesto we have already started the implementation process thank you well thanks so much Dr Aon M and great that you didn't take up all your time uh which means that we can move quicker so Adrien Russ from the da your one minute starts now thank you very much so so Minister you have let the country down and your party has let the country down over the last 30 years we started in 1994 we had 3 five border patrol units we now have just 15 we have an African Continental Free Trade Agreement which is promising to take 30 million people out of poverty and the question is how many of those are going to be South Africans hardly any because we haven't even started on the free trade area and then we have refugees and Asylum Seekers that come in the country we have a massive backlog complain about money the money is provided and that backlog is as big as ever before so the ANC is just not serious about the implications of undocumented foreigners but also the opportunities are visas like the digital Nomad Visa which can bring up to 8 billion Rand a year into this country you've let us down Minister and the country wants answers thank you so much Adrien russof the da let's move on to the EF andan man representing yeah thank you s good evening everyone the incoming president of the eff julus malama greets all of you greets the whole country the eff is a pan africanist organization our posture is the one that says we don't subscribe to a mind of a chicken the chicken is only looking in front of its peak for the next seat to pick up we are eagles in the efff we see beyond the horizons we see over the seas we see over the mountains this is who we are we don't get dictated to in the EF by the 1884 1885 berin conference borders of the imperialist that have have sown deep enity between us we see Africa as a whole we see escom playing a playing a major role in electrifying the entire continent we see trans building a rail from Cape to Cairo creating jobs all along Africa this is the kind of Africa we see do you know that the in trade of Africa in terms of Tourism gener at 80% of the revenue of Tourism came from inra Africa that's all your time moving on gon McKenzie of course here for the Patriotic Alliance we sit in a country where 60% of young people are sitting at home without a job 35% of adults are sitting at home without a job in the Western Cape and in jobber it's very hard to go to any restaurant and find a South African working there it's very hard to go into the security industry and find the South African it is very hard every house has got illegal foreigners working there so this Eagle next to me must fly to Zimbabwe and go and work there in Zimbabwe the minister the the the minister has had 30 years to sort this problem out it's over doesn't have this side of this one to three they are our problem when it comes to well thank you thank you thank you thank you gon McKenzie so Mr F Goen your minute starts now thank you very much Sakina I think we must congratulate South Africans uh for standing firm you know 5 years 6 years ago 10 years ago when you speak about immigration you were labeled xenophobic and um and I think we must also thank the president of actions andman mashab he's the first politician in 2016 when he was delivering his 100 days in office as the mayor of the city of Johannesburg to start speaking about this matter but for many years he has been labeled even by thec Dr M and them that he's xenophobic but now South Africans are discussing it it's even now an issue in this in this election which is something that we must celebrate as South Africans as actions a we are very clear that South Africa was built on the B of migrants we must welcome all people of the world into South Africa to come and invest and to come and and give their skills critical skills here that we don't have but they must come here and they must respect our laws so so those are your opening remarks from the five parties represented here and of course we're going to delve a little bit more to get more in-depth on this to find out exactly what the problems are but before we get into all of that let's take a quick [Music] break well welcome back this is election 3 360 coming to you tonight from the sabc's M1 Studios at Oakland Park but of course look out for us around the country as we will be taking this show on the road as well and speaking about taking it on the road it's all about you the audience the people whether here in studio or at home we want to hear from you Blain yes Aina that's the whole point of debat such as this right and the question is what's what's the right fixes there's a couple of questions that can possibly get us closer to that answer firstly does secure borders equal Prosperity economic prosperity for the locals and those who are year legally what about corruption and incompetence what sort of effects does that have on the territorial Integrity of this country the list goes on do those effects or those conditions add to the Animus or the tensions between locals and foreign Nationals let's hear directly from you now who those that have gathered here at M1 your name sir your question oh no no thank you so much my name is advice from action so mine is very simple my question is directed to our honorable Minister over there I do hope that his colleagues have briefed him can you truthfully um State why hundreds of young people are not paid until today with regard to NIS p and since January there are young people SE at home still yet to report to their workplace I'm asking for the truthfulness because the ones that are provided by uh your disgraced premier here in how thing a freers you know so please assist us in that and to say why for the longest time this program is starting now during election because you've been in government for the longest time you could have started this long time ago are you linking this now to border and immigration issues yes definitely without a doubt because if you can look you know I will just give this example looking in restaurant majority of young people are ling the street Cass you know without without employment and half of the people who are employed in restaurants are foreigns and you know it's it's bad for us I guess we can ask Dr M with regards to the new regulations on the general work visa and some of the changes now basically Sid stepping uh the Department of Labor but we'll get some take uh M Dr M your question your name hi good evening my name is so my question goes to the efff you guys are talking about the free African trade my question is how will the already in South Africa we facing a problem of cyber security weak policies and laws how does the EF plan to solve cyber attacks and illegal tra trads when um borders are open already there's an issue of drugs what more will happen if the borders are open which means drugs will come in and you know already we know that in South Africa every hour a young girl is Being Human trafficked what's going to happen if borders are being open now right thank you very much indeed let's get one more question on this side then I'll go down your name and your question good evening everyone my name is Mercy and my question is directed to the eff um he spoke about unemployment creating jobs and my question will be what will you do what is your action plan for jobs if you are not in power now and are unable to give jobs to the people how will you do that way you are in power right thank you very much indeed let's get some uh questions from the other side as well look the South Africa has over 5,000 kilometers in terms of land border right uh 72 ports 71 ports of Entry 52 are land uh we have about 10 international airports and nine sea ports so the umbrella question is how secure are those ports of Entry let's get your name and your question uh my name is Sharon uh my question goes to thec and the eff as young adults and young ones of South Africa what are you guys going to do for our for for our South Africans that doesn't have currently jobs because all the foreigners are taking our jobs and they um uh abused the South Africans in their workplace what are you guys going to do about it all right thank you very much indeed Let's uh head over to the panel Sakina thanks Blain and thanks to the audience a so uh those uh questions from this round going to thec and the eff um Dr M let me start with you in terms of what was posed to you Sakina n has got nothing to do with the immigration problem that has brought us here and uh I think it will be better to us this question to the premier ofing for the simple reason that yes for the simple reason that H I did not look into the details I know what NIS span is because I don't see the relationship uh with this topic that we are having here but on our side most of the people who are working here uh who who are working here as general work people is because in the Immigration Act which you are changing now in the white paper it talks about people having to go to the Department of Labor to get a certificate that there is no South African who can perform that part of type of job and then with that cic they come to homeair that has proven not to be very practical but that's what parliament passed in 2002 so in each place we are replacing it with what we call a point B system that to come and do General work in South Africa you must score certain points and and the points are going to be uh we are going to put them out in the public to Gazette them for public comments for South Africans to tell us whether they agree with particular points or not it's things about age about experience about qualifications about where you have been working before etc etc and we think that will solve this problem not rhetoric of just sitting here making noise remember issues of immigration are inter are are very serious globally it's not only a South African problem it's a global problem if you check all over the world where they are dealing with these problem so they need a superm mind and we've put that sobriety in our white paper and in all the proposals that we are making the the the the the issue H uh of foreigners taking jobs will be resolved by this secondly because all countries when they want immigration you want mostly skilled people now I want to answer a question from eff when they started about Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement the Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement have got five areas of Engagement none of them talks about open borders they are talking about Goods moving freely through borders people moving freely through borders but with documentation certain tariffs being reduced certain tariffs being reduced and certain Goods not being taxed Etc that's Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement we're trading with each other and and so it's a misn Nora to say it means there must be no border it's not true at all just a quick question before I move on to Mr Mani Dr M um with regard to the white paper and regardless of what Provisions government comes up with how is that you spoke about the practicality of it so how are you going to give effect to it if you do not have the necessary capacity in the relevant departments to actually police this no we are building capacity if you look at the the V project which was done by mum simang as by the president to review our visas he talks about this issue of capacity at both both the personnel and Technology level now what I'm saying about the the uh Immigration Act today which is in regulation 18 of the Immigration Act I am not saying we La capacity I'm saying it's impractical what has been put there what was passed by parliament is not easy even if you have got staff because as I'm saying let me explain again it says anybody who must come and do General work even with documentation must go to the Department of Labor and the prospective employer must prove that a sech was made in the country and no South African has been found who can do that job we are talking here of General work which includes domestic work Hospitality uh Agriculture and Farms you can't come and prove that I looked all over South Africa I couldn't find a domestic worker no we can't and we're going to go to the offices and we may or may not find impractical that's why we are changing it correct in home Affairs now Mr Man thank you um very briefly nasis Pani is just a scam uh what what pazza has done there what pazza has done there he just Consolidated a lot of already existing vacancies in other departments and put them into this thing and called npan so there's no new job that have been created it's just a feeling of vacancies it's just a scam moving forward the issue of the um uh well I heard I think I heard something about cyber trade and all of that uh and I wasn't sure how uh the installation of borders is going to stop cyber trade unless we are misunderstanding each other because as things stand cyber trade With or Without Borders will happen uh and all of that so I just didn't understand the question but be that as it me the efff is talking about one passport for Africa you must remember we said we're igles not chickens so we're seeing the continent as a whole this is who who we are as Eagles we seeing the whole continent we seeing one passport when you have a passport that means you're documented so this notion that the eff is supporting illegality Must Fall there's no such a thing when you say one passport how can you have a passport without without being known who you are it's just a fallacy what we are saying is that we must not live our lives in terms of the dictates of the imperialist if you go to Europe this nonsense of these borders that dealing with with us here is not existent in Europe I was personally in France I took a train from France to Switzerland I was not asked one thing about a passport from one country to another that happens so all we are saying is that we must see Africa as a whole and not just see these little things like a chicken chicken mentality we must get rid of that we must see we must see we must see I mean this this notion uh we must see we must see how Africa can cooperate with each other sagina we're sitting here yeah we're sitting here we're sitting here with with resources in Africa that if we were to properly utilize and do the economies of scale in Africa we'll be able to make sure that the entire continent is well established to fight the entire world okay what is the problem uh before I come back to you Blain Mr McKenzie you wanted to say something K can I just conclude I have to conclude I have to con I thought you were done I have to conclude I thought you were done we spoke about IND massive jobs in terms of job creation what you are saying is that the EF is going to embark on a huge industrialization program are going to massify jobs what you going to have going to make sure that manufacturing is brought back into the country we're not going to have assembly plans anymore or we'll have assembly plans but over and above assembly plans will have manufacturing plans so the issue of job creation is key in the EF we do AGR processing we do beneficiation jobs is to be fashionable thank you McKenzie you see we must expose where people are trying to not tell the truth he's been to France I've been to France a few months ago France number one doesn't have unemployment passing 50% in France there's not 84 people dying every day so let's not come here and compare ourselves to countries that does not have the problems that we are having in this country no one walks around in Europe when you have an illegal passport in Europe or you have no passport you will never go and open a shop in full view of everybody those things don't happen in Europe so just for the people that's not been to France I've been there on your behalf to despair Liv like this then you see I want to unpack something when we talk about open borders one Africa when there's war in Bundi when there's war in Mali when you have a open one passport those people can come in here that are fighting we have a problem in this country we have a serious problem Nigerians have taken over the drug trade in this country prostitution they do what they like let me make you the last example tux shops the law let's talk about the law let's not talk about what e say or PA let's talk about the law the law says for you to come here and open a business you need to come with an investment amount when you come with an investment amount if you don't come with an investment amount you have to have paperwork so all illegal for all illegal fors here are committing a crime number one I just want to say two things they're committing a crime by being here illegally according to the rules of Minister mui if you don't you must have a passport number one our president of this country goes to a t shop a crime scene and he goes and congratulate a criminal there and say your business your crime business must grow illegal foreigners will go under PA government and um f GOI hold that thought we need to take a break we're going to come back we'll give you and Adrien R an opportunity and then we'll go back to our audience for more questions but for now let's take a quick break [Music] and welcome back to elections 360 just a quick introduction once more of our panel this evening Dr Aon MSI from the African National Congress from the Democratic Alliance Mr Adrien Ruan man representing the economic freedom fighters patriotic Alliance represented by gon and of course Mr funi from African of action essay now action essay Mr ngeni you wanted to say something before the break I wanted to say two things Sakina firstly to the minister um you see they always change legislation even if the legislation is not a problem I think gon has already demonstrated that legislation is not a problem and we have submitted our submissions um uh on the white paper because we believe that that white paper um apparently took about four years for it to be reviewed is just a tool for elections they're not serious about doing anything about about the home Affairs department they not serious about doing anything about immigration on that document we have proposed that the critical list uh critical uh work list it needs to be updated regular SK list yes critical skills list it needs to be updated regularly not not what they are proposing they are proposing that um that they're going to to review it now and then they'll review it because the thing is that um you know skills in our country they change because technology is coming into the into the space now with regards to the eff they are saying they they they are for industri industrial industrialization Sakina let's let's be clear how do you then industrialize when you've got porous borders and they're encouraging people to come into our country illegally for us to be able to industrialize we need the rule of law we need to deal with crime we need to ensure that our borders are closed we need to deal with counterfeit Goods because imagine we are going to start manufacturing businesses under the eff they'll be competing with counterfeit Goods that are on on nework state it's not going to happen you know so we need to make sure that we close all those gaps so we can be able to make sure that our people are being employed are prioritized and then and then we're able to see growth in the economy and and and and and see the level of unemployment coming down as well and the S the the assumption withi is that counterfeit good words are something that is brought in by uh the immigrants to South Africa is that what you're saying yes uh Sakina in the main but also we want to lay the blame also on the on the department of Home Affairs and SARS because custom the role of custom is it lies with government and the authorities being able to implement the rules that are there at the moment it's it's everybody's uh uh uh business they do as they wish this product coming through either by sea either the by land but we see them on the ground and we see buses moving from from Limpopo coming into this country with those illegal Goods so the same thing with cigarettes by the way um which I I think EF is quite interested on because cigarette cigarette smuggling that is happening in our country and we see because what's happening is that we've got we've got these businesses running H uh cigarette producing cigarettes in the country but most of it is being actually bring into the country illegally through our borders and that I have to correct this correct not now um Mr R yes and then yes Dr M can Mr R have his moment and then you can respond to all of them yeah thank you I think it's a bit much to say that we should just have a free for all um freedom in this country comes with responsibility it's Freedom under rule of law not just a free for all we cannot have anybody just coming into this country so there is a freedom of movement protocol of the African Free Trade Agreement it allows 90day Visa free entry in the African passport then it's the right to do business which is a separate element and then it's the right of establishment but you cannot just have a free- for all and the challenge we have in this country in the United Kingdom there are 5,000 immigration officials and here we have 770 and the UK is the size of lmop so with this Free Trade Agreement and before it can happen we need to actually get a reasonable number of uh immigration officials because they're not getting around they're not going out and they're not finding undocumented foreigners and deporting them they're not implementing the law and therefore we're stuck in the situation where it is a free-for all unfortunately at the moment Dr M the EF was attacked I have to respond yeah Dr M man you relax and D relax yeah I I want to say two things let's understand as we are sitting here that we are not an island we are part of the world and there are rules There are rules that have been established on these issues of migration the United Nations established the international office on migrations with rules the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugee came with a convention in 1951 with 46 articles that governs all these things the organization of African Unity which is now Au came with rules about Refugee and Asylum seekers in 1969 so we are not waking in the vacuum I want to respond to funzi you know small knowledge kills at times especially if you expose it in front of people number one he is talking about something which happen says proposed by action sa the critical skills we have already reviewed it three times we not we are not waiting for 4 years we are not talking about coming to do we are already reviewing it so that is how dis tict please subtract it the the problem then he said there's no problem with the law I'll refer him tonight go and read a judgment done by Cameron judge Cameron in the conal court which is unanimous judgment who verus the minister of Home Affairs and you read there what is wrong with the laws I can even refer to Chapters which I mean what you call sections which which must read like section 10 because don't shout don't shout I'm giving him facts I'm actually educating him there is mentioning yes there judge Cameron is mentioning the contradiction between the refugee Act pass in 1998 and the Immigration Act pass in 2002 in the white paper we are showing that the citizenship Act is actually a replica of the 1949 act which you don't want which was passed during the union so there is everything wrong with The Act Your Leader was misleading you bring him here for education and I'll show him all the areas that need the ACT to be changed thank you all right um Mr Man and then we have to go to the audience they have some questions as well a very important point to make is that the eff is not a proxy for imperialist we are here to drive an agenda of South Africa and Africa we are not here to drive an agenda that is imposed by Europeans here the issue of industrialization the isue of industrialization the reason he actiona is trivializing it is because they want to continue to support Europe this is what they want to do we want to create jobs here want to make sure that we make want to make sure that there's beneficiation of our minerals we want to make sure that there's AGR processing that's going to create jobs the issue of crime crime is crime you must not when you deal with crime start to give it a nationality crime is crime it doesn't matter there is no better crime because it's committed by South African crime is crime whoever perpetrates crime must be arrested this is our position all right m Kenzie hold that thought Blaine yeah so some have argued that the principle of pan-africanism shouldn't promote illegal entry right now having said that how do you balance the needs of supporting those who are forced to leave their countries of aigion and the local population let's get some answers as well as more questions from the audience your name is hi my name Isa M and I have a question for thec and basically what I've understood is our honorary min Minister has told us about how the white paper on immigration citizenship and Refugee Pro uh protection Works to change the system and to simplify the Visa process so my question to you is don't you think that they also needs to be a way to cater for people who are currently stuck in the digital divide people who do not have access to Internet connection because that's a big hindrance to immigrants who are really trying to to work around the Eva application system thank you thank you very much indeed also something that came out of the white paper when it was released is that the department of Home Affairs says they have no idea how many illegal immigrants are here in South Africa shouldn't there be a well-coordinated strategy in order to track that we will find out after the [Music] break e [Music] [Music] welcome back you're watching elections 360 as we engaging with audience members we have a few minutes left on S2 thereafter we'll go for an extra half an hour on channel 404 let's get more questions from the audience your name and your question sir uh my name is solim k I have two quick questions one to the PA one to the eff as brief as possible yes PA what will Mass deportation benefit South Africans then to the eff is that the forefathers of Pana africanist even Liberia itself the one that was birth on pan-africanism they never brought down borders which part of Pana africanism that says to them everyone must converge in in South Africa all thank you very much indeed just remember that our question is is South Africa ready for a borderless continent absolutely and my I've got a comment for the minister because the minister just stated here that that H they will thec government will repeal immigration laws but they they want us to trust them again they created the mess now they want the voters to trust them again to fix a mess that they created we the voters shouldn't listen to that it's never going to happen the won't fix immigration in this country going to the DA the da doesn't have an immigration policy it doesn't have in their top five priority list they don't note any immigration there's no immigration of the da now to the gentleman of the eff the very capable Mr Man my question to him is how will the eff Finance he how will the eff Finance its uh free African trade uh policy as well as the free movement of African people because in your Manifesto sir it does state that you want to create a passport for African people and moving to the PA excuse me about that we have very limited time I'm just going to leave it there for now right just I'm going to try and squeeze in one more question then we're going to get some answers um hello to everybody as a student of the University of Johannesburg and somebody who dwells on public policy I would like to refrain from being ambiguous and actually be ambitious in my Approach and actually dedicate this time to addressing the elephant in the room which is immigration and you know the trade that's been happening in South Africa given the fact that South Africa has a lot of challenges and we already have capacity issues what specific legislature are we looking at from the an ANC P point of view because I would like to believe that you guys can do better um from an ANC point of view What policies are we looking at statutory framework are we willing to implement on behalf of South Africans to actually make make sure that we yeah we rip the fruits of this immigration policy all right thank you very much indeed answer Sakina indeed all right let's start with Mr gon McKenzie there um your answer please all right I think you know it's very heartbreaking listening to the leaders here people speak about laws and they're trying to educate each other about laws let's talk about reality on the ground reality on the ground is that illegal foreigners are accessing they got access to our hospitals in rahima Musa illegal foreigners are giving birth while South African women are giving birth on the floor while illegal foreigners are on the bed let's look at the housing list foreigners are applying for housing let's look at the job market the job market is dominated the service industry Securities waiters is dominated by illegal foreigners our people are sitting in Alex in and Aldos and Mell plain and they have no jobs the da people are hiring illegal foreigners the owners of the industry because they don't want to pay uif they don't want people that are unionized we are sitting here with a crisis now to answer the question what the Patriotic Alliance will do once you m Deport all of them that's illegally yeah listen for eff it's impossible not for the PA once you m Deport once you m Deport all illegal foreigners already already you will have restaurants you'll have companies with jobs and stuff like that now they must not talk Mr Man lastly Mr man speaks about uh we never said people must have passports we know we said one passport for Africa but his president that people must find creative ways what is that now he's talking a different story I am saying this is not the we are not the only country if I've been long in politics this problem would have been sorted out I'm new to politics if I've been long here this problem would have been sorted out because we cannot sit here and then this this what what Le fun said there's a problem on the ground let us leave this so boating the people are hungry the people don't have jobs people can't access health care people can't get housing because wherever you go and they are so arrogant because they have leaders that are protecting them this arrogance will finish on the 29th of M Kenzie um be before before I get to Mr Mane U Mr McKenzie Mr McKenzie you were at the um River Crossing there between South Africa and Zimbabwe uh we saw that on social media so how far did you go and what did you establish the problem to be there we have no border management police and if we do have them they were not there we were there we saw people coming over now I want to show you about crime when you come in and you kill somebody in South Africa if you are not documented the cops has no chance in hell to find the person that killed any person we saw it takes it took a old lady four and a half minutes I'm talking about somebody that was 71 to cross from there into South Africa now imagine if you have people coming in they kill people which is happening in this country and they go back we blame the cops because we said oh we have hopeless cops but the cops need to start with fingerprints these people are undocumented we found gon there it's free for all there's no border at the moment to be honest with you terrorists can come in Killers can come in we want to we are saying the only way to stop this thing you have to construct a wall like in other countries how long will that wall be what's the distance of that border what's the distance of that border Mr McKenzie no you see what you are having you had you have 220 kilm that was unsupervised now when I say a wall should be built I'm not saying a wall should be built in isolation I am saying a wall should be built with soldiers that are that are trained what we having now guys you see once you've not traveled you don't see how other countries are serious about fighting crime uh Mr man says they not falling imperialist and he's going for the imperialist but he's just talking about how he went to the Imperial State he's just from France so also what did he do in France all right and I I I think Dr malli will answer more to that but I think if I'm not mistaken the length of that uh River and what needs to be covered is more than 600 kilm uh from going all the way through to Botswana as well coming all the way um to the north at Zimbabwe but Minister M will speak to that Mr Man yeah very briefly first let us deal with this creative ways you know at sagina the efff deployed me to the Eastern Cape I've just seen how creative these young people are going to school they do this up they've got no money to go to school they 10 kilometers they found a creative way to go to school they go to school and back this what they do so there is nothing in that St statement that says creative ways that unless you you're a criminal yourself that you think he meant criminality because that's why you think that's why never said they just said creative ways and I'm saying to you I've seen in practic in real life what those children do in the Easter Cape 10 kilm they go to school and back this way that's a creative way to go to school but the problem we're sitting with the problem we're sitting with in South Africa is that of a not growing economy in the 2000s in the 2000s this discussion would be totally irrelevant because the economy was growing this is why it's important not to have a chicken approach you must see the big picture when you see the big picture when you see if you look at the if you look at the manifesto of the eff sagina you will see that it's very clear about what needs to be done it's very ambitious they think when they look at it they say this is unachievable let me mention very briefly five things that we will do to make sure that there is serious money in this country the first thing that the eff will do is to deal with the issue of transfer pricing transfer pricing transfer pricing is the biggest money eroder in the economy of this country by way of Base erosion profit shifting this is mainly done by large corporates that undervalue their operations so that they don't pay tax so fisal is robbed every year the amount of money that we can can save from dealing with transfer pricing is no less than 250 billion that's what we will save as the E secondly will capacitate the state to collect the the the revenues right now you have municipalities that go around H getting electricity money but they don't pay that over to escom so the eff will make sure that to deploy people in those municipalities to make sure that the the the electricity money gets to ESCO should get to thirdly Mr I have to finish I no no no let me just bring you back to the topic at hand let's stick to the immigration and Border management issues I can understand um so that's all I'm saying let's just bring it back to that because um on the issue for example where you speak about um Goods coming into the country illegally uh yes we absolutely want to hear about that but I think some of the other Manifesto issues are issues to be C in later shows uh so I want us to just stick to the issue at hand we're talking about immigration and of course the Border Management in South Africa uh so if we could stick to that please Time to Say Goodbye to already bc2 viewers uh we will be back with them next week live from Kaden so thank you very much indeed for joining us for myself bla Herman and sakam window [Music] all right and of course we continue on sabc news channel 44 the debate continues uh that was just a goodbye to our sabc two viewers so our sabc2 viewers have left us but we continue here on sabc news so um just coming back very briefly uh to the conversation at hand uh Mr RS and then um Dr malei yeah thank you very much so it's always funny when somebody says the da doesn't have a policy um and the one thing about DA's policies is they're all properly costed now Mr Mckenzie was talking about reality and I saw a number of members in the uh audience were laughing um if we talk about a wall to build a wall across the 4,800 km of the Border will cost about 1.2 trillion Rand that'll be about 20,000 Rand for each and every person in the entire country of South Africa so it's not going to happen 1.2 trillion Rand then deportation even if we said there were 5 million illegal foreigners here we were going to deport them all it would take 20 years if we did it at the rate the record rate was 2006 when 260,000 were deported so let's say it's going to take 20 to 40 years to deport everybody so what's going to happen in the meantime what's going to be left so I think when we come with solutions they need to be properly costed and realistic and we shouldn't create false hopes so what the da is saying what the da is saying is that we need to implement the laws in the country Dr M yes so we need to implement the laws inside the country and cut corruption because that is what is happening here that is why people can walk through the the that is why people can yeah thank you yeah Sakina I I I don't have to answer to guide and those who are at this level have actually answered him yeah they've given him answer uh because we need to be realistic Sakina let me give proper figures here the the border the land border around South Africa is 4,472 KM long G McKenzie and his team were only on 100 M trip where they were stand and they believe you do the border on 100 m is 4,472 KM that's where we need to deploy border guards and we we deploy them strategically for instance for instance in this 4,772 K 472 km the longest distance is between us and muana is 1,500 km there is no problem there we don't experience a big problem secondly I want to State it very clear there is no border anywhere in the world that exist that has not been breached gon doesn't know because he was not Fighting For Freedom during during during the struggle for Freedom can you can you can you tell that gentleman I'm debating with his leader not him yeah he's at a very low level can you keep quiet yes during during aart dat Sakina the borders were fortresses but we were able to take people out to fight for Freedom some of us did so yes freedom Firs were going out of that so anywhere in the world this all is talking about is just hanging in the air it's hot as in other wordss you know then we have got the Sea border of 3,900 km all those are being policed and he comes here and say no there's no border at all and all if there was no border there you would have seen Flames our border guards are working day and night not on that 100 km Street they are working day and night and and sagina we have got figures we have got figures just in one year of being established they stopped 149 cars being stolen to go out of the country they stopped 65,000 people coming illegally into the country they stopped lot of things and they are still new before before the end of next month we'll be introducing 400 extra border guards so there's no problem issue of not being bothers there um Mr GOI yeah no I I I think Dr m is tired sh uh you see and and and he's tired by the arrogance is still there at the top you know I think I think the ANC must acknowledge that they failed this count [Applause] um the department of Home Affairs instead of him focusing on laws and legislation he must be focusing on sorting out the structural issues there at home Affairs you can ask him today how many of Home Affairs officials have been suspended of corruption and how many of them have been convicted and so forth you know you can ask him today how many of his senior officials are currently on leave but they've been suspended you know you can ask me those question because the issue is structural it's not the the legislation that they're trying to change and everything wasting time and actually wanting us to South Africans to think that they are doing something whereas they're not doing anything he's tired they must it's easy they must they must they must allow the new government to come in and resolve the issues that in home Affairs you are of course watching elections 360 here on sabc news hold up Dr V and um because at this rate we're not going to get the audience to participate but of course um very important questions being raised uh by the panel to each other hopefully the answers are satisfactory to some uh how do the uh historical political the social uh the economic factors how do those actually influence our attitudes towards immigrants in this country but let's hear your questions bla yeah that's an important Point Sir Ken let's get more burning questions now your name sir and where you from Yan dkin from Vitz um my question really is to Mr McKenzie an action essay I'm very glad Mr McKenzie brought up the issue of a wall in 2016 Trump came into office with the largest military budget in the world with the largest economy in the world and they could not stop immigration with your admission of our incapacities of the state how do you believe the state under your control will be able to stop that if the United States couldn't secondly you're very good at analyzing surface level issues but there's no analysis of why the immigrants are coming in the first place there's no analysis of us imperialism in Congo in sanctions on Zimbabwe is it because your friends are with the US and if you come into power how are you going to solve the issue of them coming in thank you very much indeed important questions we're going to get some answers now let me go over to the other side we heard a briefing today as well from the border Management Authority saying that since the deployment of the Border guards they managed to intercept about 2 181,000 people that are trying to come in here illegally is that good enough there are still capacity issues let's get more questions your name and your question oh hi I'm Elizabeth from Zone 12 V 65a Branch so my question goes to my party my leader there um I want to ask you that um based on our manifestor and our experience how do we resolve the issue of refugees and how can um Democratic Alliance bring change towards South Africa ever since if they were to be in in in part like all right let's get one more question and then we'll go get some answers your name well good evening my name is s name is I'm not going to ask a question to the group beneficiaries and ologist I do not want to talk to uh Gucci re revolutionaries my question is directed at acsa how do you plan on correcting the failure of BMA and andc around the issue of immigration we have um we I mean we have people coming to sa to open up saloon colleges that are not even registered please stop being arrogant you are a public representative thank you very much indeed s let's Ro back to you for some answers right uh thank you so much um let me start DR M yeah Sakina I am not being arrogant I'm just educating their uneducated leaders you see there's no way I've never been arrogant in my life firstly Sakina whatever new government comes in it will never be action sa let's underline that number two it will never be number two you see these parties that are owned by one personal problematic because you must go and ask him what to answer he complained about the ACT I referred him to the judgments of constitutional Court which he must go to read which shows that there is a problem in legislation go and read paragraph 53 of the judgment on Alex rud versus the minister of Home Affairs you will hear what the judges are saying about the gap between two pieces of legislation the Immigration Act and the refugee act go and read paragraph 48 about the reconcilable difference between the immigration Refugee Act is in the same judgment go and read paragraph 30 where you say that act has gone beyond what even the international conventions are saying now instead of going to check that he is saying I'm tired and that's arrogant instead of answering to this this are facts this are facts and the are fact which come from a court of law but you can't accept the facts because he must go and ask his leader how to answer this question I come from a movement which is a movement for the people I can answer and they'll be happy about that thank you um let's go to Mr and come back okay yeah no I I I I was going to respond I'm not going to respond to Dr M he's an elder and um the the I mean some of the issues we know that are causing immigration and you are correctly saying uh the government of Zimbabwe is also the cause of this and um but this is the this is the government that has been supporting zanu PF even when Zan PF was uh was losing elections you know and and and this these are the people that that that have been uh propping up that government even today we are saying all those leaders of zanu PF will not enter this country once action takes takes power they need they need to go to and sort out their country and get their people to be able to um to vote in a free and fair election and stop their corruption um and and be able to and in that way you'll be able to limit a lot of of of zimbabweans coming into the country what what what we are saying with regards to BMA um yes is there but it needs to be it needs to be empowered more it needs to work closer with the saps we need to get the South African National Defense Force as well to be to be there but we are also looking at technological solutions Dr M that we need technological solutions to be able to assist us to be able to manage the borders as well because not I mean boots on the ground is fine but we need to also tap into the technology so that we can be able to address the situation in our borders thank you very much thank you [Music] there's there's few things that there's few things that that I hate like a person telling me if that person couldn't get right how do you think you're going to get right we are not the USA let's start there you see South Africa has the highest unemployment figure in the world our children don't have jobs now I can't care about the reasons we are not the policeman of the world we are not the father of the world we've got bigger problems than Zimbabwe we've got bigger problems than every country in Africa just don't go far just go with with unemployment and go with our crime States we are number one in Africa we are number one uh when it comes to toplessness we are number one when it comes to Crime now our thing is to our thing is to fight that now can't come to me and tell me the reason why zans are here the reasons why Nigerians are here the reasons the reason why I'm sitting here and the people that pays all this government officials and Minister m is sitting here it is not the text of the illegal foreigners it he's got a a duty to look after South Africa first before he looks after everybody so I don't care the patriotic Alliance doesn't care really about all the reasons that's being Advanced of why we have illegal foreigners we do care first for our country if there's war here in this country now zimbabweans people from Burundi everywhere they will come and take their Citizens first they will leave us here so let's fix our country before we worry about outside countries thank you Mr [Music] Man yeah S I know I feel sorry for the minister because he's got an impossible task you know if you look at the number of permits that years to manage it's about 13 permits so there's a whole range of permits that he needs to manage in here so he's got a a difficult job but the biggest problem uh that this country faces as I said in the past when economy was good this discussion would have been irrelevant I think it's important that we must be aware that we're just fighting over Crums what is important once again is to be the eagle not to be the chicken now when you do that when you do that you begin to see sagina that South Africa on a world scale is Number One Platinum producer world scale South Africa why aren't we using that to leverage that to make sure that we take the country to the next level on a world scale South Africa is in the top 10 in terms of iron or production on the world scale South Africa is in the top seven in Coal production on the world scale DRC is number one on Cobalt production on a world scale Bona is number two on damond production so Africa is a Powerhouse what we need to do is to ensure that everybody has got one passport everybody's identifiable we agree with everybody being identifiable having a passport one passport for everybody we create South AF Africa as an economic Hub once we have Africa as an economic Hub all the problems the push factors of Africa will be resolved there'll be no reason for anybody to leave their country so you must see the bigger picture we cannot solve the problems of South Africa by chasing people away the problem will be solved by building the economy of Africa reduce the push factors of Africa then everybody's happy where they are Mr West yeah thank you so so what the da will do about refugees is pretty much like everything else and what you find in in home Affairs at the moment uh after much questioning and backwards and forwards we found the minister saying that the reason why visas are so far behind is because the people that are there don't have the legal qualifications they don't know what they're doing essentially and so they had to actually get people in that know what they're doing and so that is why the da will do away with cada deployment and get in people that actually know what they're doing they can adjudicate these things as fast as possible so that you don't have a refugee waiting for 10 years in the country able to work here able to live able to access services that that is quickly adjudicated that they can either then leave or they can stay here and have their rights uh uh protected and then secondly to jail corrupt people for the minimum of 15 years minimum of 15 years for corruption I mean we have an obesi report it's taking years and years and years and those people that are issuing fake documents inside the department of Home Affairs are still there the report's been around for about 2 years now they are sitting there still doing it and so we're going to be very harsh on corruption 15year jail sentences and putting competent people in that can actually do the job well we have to take another break here on elections 360 but very interesting points being made by our panelists very interesting sentiment and questions being asked from our studio audience and uh someone spoke about analysis and analyzing what is going on and I think one of the other elephants in the room is who and what we focus on when we talk about immigration and illegal immigrants in the country because remember some people come into the country legally and then decide to stay and where do they come from are we focusing on them are we looking at what sort of impact they are having on our country on our labor market uh on everything social cohesion and everything else in this country uh we haven't touched on that as yet but let's take a quick break and then blae will come back and give us more questions from the floor [Music] welcome back you're watching elections 360 as we are entering the tail end of the conversation time is off the essence so let's get straight into it with regards to our live audience and their questions your name and your questions sir I speaking TOA students of politics Cates so my question is for the eff I think they are failing Us in addressing the practical ity of what they going to do with the issue of the porous borders right what are borders looking like for the eff if we are not going to have borders and the second question uh goes around the attitude of uh South Africans uh about H immigrants right we know that there have been a xenophobic attitude that have risen because of illegal or fake Goods that are sold in our spaza shops so what have been the implementation in dealing with those kind of things thank you very much indeed ma'am good evening I am Dr Mosin dupy from the Patriotic Alliance I just want to sued Us in another way to say that uh I'm not going to look at analysis or research and I'm not here to educate anyone but I come here as a concerned citizen who's on the ground you know you cannot our system have created this uh for for for illegal immigrants to come and deete our resources so South Africa is not poor but it is poorly managed because how do I say to a a patient coming in who's a illegal citizen I I can't catch your baby you know and how do you how do you say that uh there's not free care for illegal immigrants so my question is to thec uh you've orchestrated the system uh for us to inclusive but actually exclusive so how are you going to correct it and the next one is to his Excellency gon McKenzie uh I want to know from you uh sir uh if we got obviously we're going to be uh 20 29 May we're going to take over the country so uh I just want to know that's a fact that's a fact I just want to know that I am from the EFM they they they brag to say that the kids are hiking to school uh and that is a creative what are you going to do because now even us we the the system is extension of a parted regime how are you going to bring other than bringing God back to school how are you going to restore our education system all right I think we got the point thank you very much indeed let's try one more question here and I'll go across thank you thank you very much thank you my name is my name my name is t ma my question is to action in your policies there's a part that speaks to uh charging uh companies who hire illegal immigrants do you think this is enough to to fight the the the the the scourge of illegal immigration all right thank you very much indeed let's go across very quickly because time is of the essence and I guess the general sentiment is that you can't reduce poverty and inequality without rooting out corruption right to what extent are we capacitating the state to what extent are we capacitating officials to do that your name and your question my name is an from the University of vest I have a question for Mr Man my question is we have drugs coming into our country we have counterfeit and how is the eff planning to mediate that because trafficking is a huge problem considering that we have high RIS of gbv and femicide in our country how can you put put as it is that immigration will help us to uh be free from that all right thank you one more question here sure hi I have actually a comment to um the Patriotic Alliance leader um how can you in the same breath endorse constitutional ideals of non-discrimination non stereotypic um non like not being stereotypical and in that same breath blame immigrants for crime and and blame them for like every other problem that exists in South Africa I think that is a very incompetent way to look at governance and you're basically just looking for loopholes the problem with um South Africa is the government itself not immigrants immigrants are not the reason we don't have jobs they are not the reason we we have such high crimes levels of crime all right one more one more secondly I think none of you guys have addressed this but what about education and access to education for immigrant children that are stateless children that are not acknowledged by their own government as Citizens and by our government as Citizens these children don't have access to education all right thank you very much indeed let's let's throw it back to Sak what about crossb crime as well we know the well documented cases of areas in quaz like those have been reported in terms of crossborder crime syndicates what is being done Sakina thanks Blain Dr M Sakina at long last funzi is starting to talk sense and because you are in government when we talk sense we will acknowledge he says we need technology and we agree we have already started ordering it we are not saying we are still going to we have ordered 18 drones which are going to be used at the borders we have ordered fourspeed boats we have ordered 500 handheld gadgets that can identify you just by putting your fingerprint there very briefly very briefly Dr it's better to listen I don't believe you have said South South Africa has got more problems than Zimbabwe when zimbabweans are actually coming here in large numbers I don't believe you said so but let's leave it um we out of time the last one yeah the last one the the the what you call don't build a house before Roofing it the issues that you are talking about which you said you must solve which Europe has solved Europe took 100 years and you must still solve them all right thank you uh all right I'm going to give all of you from mren coming back excluding Dr m a quick half minute to just wrap it up we are out of time no no thank you very much Sakina and the the question from um from the lady that we are not focusing on um the issue is not illegal foreigners is is government we agree with her and that is why we need to remove this ones this is why we have to remove them because they they they have failed both southa an and migrants as well um so we need to remove them we also need to ask you you are telling us to go and read this and that you must ask the president to read those things before he brings money illegally into the country Mr McKenzie Mr McKenzie now you know for us I just want to say that uh it's not only the government that's that fault it's also illegal foreigners for us as the Patriotic Alliance I can't argue with the lady that says illegal foreigners is not a problem how do I even start to argue as a person if 12% of our convicted uh prisoners are illegal foreigners I am saying to you Sakina what we need to do in conclusion this country needs a reset we need to be tough on imig illegal foreigners we have a crisis and you can see now people are saying there's no problem here vote for a party like the PA that knows there's a problem Mr Man Mr Man 30 seconds thank you H Sakina once again I think we must see the bigger picture the eff the eff the eff [Music] will Mr Manu we running out of time yeah the E the eff will establish a sovereign wealth fund with that Sovereign wealth fund we'll make sure that there is enough funding to be able to do the things that the country needs to do the reason we're fighting we're fighting over a little bone the efff wants to make sure that we build a bigger economy that will also transcend South Africa and get to the rest of the continent it's important that we do not feed into hating each other remember that 60% of your water comes from lisu must remember that we must remember that we have we have an to build relationship with the DRC the DRC with hydro electricity can make sure that we can liberate 30 second a lot of megawatts for the rest of the continent Mr R Mr R we're out of time 30 seconds quickly okay so so the one audience member the one audience member said that uh foreigners depleted our resources but as far as I remember foreigners were have not been in charge for the last 30 years it's thec that has depleted our resources and one of the tragedies I'm glad statelessness was brought up because because of the fact that corruption rules everything that is done in our immigration system and this is the first thing that needs to be fixed before we spend 1.2 trillion it means that South African children cannot get documented so in our schools today there are over half a million South African children that cannot get documented because this government said we're going to make it more difficult for late registrations of birth because forign are trying to get in all right so we need to get real and we need honest 30 seconds yeah thank you very much Sakina none we never said ASC that there are no problems if we thought there were no problems we wouldn't be changing the ACT we wouldn't be passing the white paper we won't be coming with new methods secondly I think you must not mislead people and say when economy is growing we won't talk immigration even rich countries are still talking about immigration when the economy is growing even after we have grown economy our time for this evening got to go we got to go that's it that's it so that is this evening's Edition the very first of Elections 360 thanks so much to the wonderful audience and our panel uh thec the da e patriotic Alliance and of course action and sa next week we in quaz Nal the battle for the soul of that province join us then bye-bye [Music]
