EFAP #189 - Havin' a lil look at some Spider-Man: No Way Home criticism with Meme and Metal

hello yo yo yo yo well three out of five's not bad yeah good percentage hi um hello everybody this is efab number [Music] uh it's all about whatever the title says because i don't even know what i would have named it um oh man we're here today if you're listening to this it means that we were unavailable to do a normal timed effect but this would be premiering at the time of a normal time effect so you got that um hi hi hi we we we we we're just gonna we're just gonna check out some videos as is usual um you're familiar with all five of the phases you can see right now though i'm i've got a different avatar on for and meme has not moved on from his uh uh his doctor strange one i guess yeah i kind of want to get a colored version of uh of this one i'm not gonna lie oh what the hell have you done cat no stop no no advertisement stop don't yeah yeah and i can't pause it because it's an ad i don't want to watch llama drama wow what i was like okay spend that time um but yeah we're there's a video i've been made aware of and i was like ooh it's a video essay you guys i don't know if you've ever seen one of them they're like really formal sort of digressions into specific topics to overall make a point and the point of this one is nah no way home wasn't that great now what's funny about that does i agree like it wasn't that great it was pretty cool yeah pretty cool um i always feel like even to a degree our audience over below our um [Music] our perspective on this uh this film i get told a lot that we like praise the [ __ ] out of it and i'm like i don't have a five isn't and so i see this video and i'm told like oh it could be a good one for efap and i'm just saying you like i mean to agree with it and and then i gave it a little little look-see and i was like oh so you know what what a way to introduce the idea of seeing this thing whatever it may be um it's gonna be one of those deals where it's like so much to criticize but it's going to be all the wrong things or something i don't know what you're talking about [Laughter] yeah i'm looking forward to oh here we go i'll boot her up and uh well you know to be honest with you there's nothing else for us to do than jump into this thing i think as long as that's okay with everyone else does anyone want to establish anything before we we go right ahead uh that's what i thought i like ocarina of time oh that's all i got i just it's front out there all right well um i guess i guess i'll just play the video and perhaps almonds will be activated i don't know uh but yeah like i said nah no way home wasn't that great have a look see all right that's a big deal i'm like spiderman oh so loud editing choices in this i am could be interested we skipped this one already i'd hate it hey it's an intro there's nothing wrong with it she said she likes spider-man it's from how about that yeah i can do it lower but then i can't hear you anymore but you can use the volume what do you mean use the slider or the video you fool i already did but it was already loud when it happened so now it doesn't count anymore you're a you're a foolish fool that's what i think so let's pretend it's still 2021 because i have some things to say about this movie yeah people really did enjoy this one and you know what nothing feels better than seeing humanity taking a well-deserved break to have fun and unite around enjoyment over the piece of media after the hellhole that we all went through over the past two years only if i could share that excitement too i really went back i mean yeah i guess though kind of sucks when everyone enjoys a thing and you think it's [ __ ] yep a lot of people turned on that movie though anyway they did a couple of months they did indeed i would yeah i would have gone as far as saying at this point the movie's divisive divisive dividing um yeah our stance in the quickest way possible is the plot garbage the characters are pretty good except doc strange that's it that's not that sound yeah [Music] fourth with myself about making this video i never want to be that party pooper who goes oh yeah that thing you enjoy by the way it stuck go dunk yourself into the lake or something but what made me dunk yourself into the lake that's a joke rags you'd expect her to say something like kill yourself but then she says something pretty tame go dunk yourself in the lake i just saw the channel name so i have chosen death i like it as a meme so i've have chosen death yeah i guess it should just be i right so i have chosen oh that's probably a digital yeah okay yeah was that people did not just i don't know him swings past one billion one point seven four billion okay crazy but also referred to it as some sort of uh it makes wiggling diesel no that was that's that's like some people who make their video essays six minutes after the film comes out and it's the next masterpiece amazing brilliant incredible thing and then the next month they forget about it and say it's like other than that like the once they've had an hour after six minutes masterpiece hour they're like it was good and then a day and they're like actually why it's terrible it's like the half-life of your positivity on the field like i don't know 20 minutes tops it's just really depressing really big movie came out quick quick we got to push out our video essay quick quick quick there's a there's a part of me that thinks that it's it is just as simple as um that initial hype kind of just creates this reaction that's super duper positive and then it is just more of the wait a minute hmm just starts to seep in it just like sugar crash yeah a little bit like you you see it and it's really novel and exciting and then you give it like time and then it deteriorates um when you know generally the sign with a good movie is it's like a wine you know it's it ages it's like beautiful it just starts to you start to appreciate more about it yeah um i think you're right the uh the matter of wanting to be a part of a community that's so happy to see a thing and enjoy a thing that just seeps into how good was the thing and sometimes it's just absolute [ __ ] i think end games were going to be the all-time example for that definitely and it's easy to do that since i feel like the term masterpiece today is being thrown around by people left and right i don't disagree no yeah true i think that's that response either amazing or terrible everything everywhere all at once might be a masterpiece though wow you think when you think these camera people who are recording oprah when she's handing out cars they're like well i'm in here too right yeah you just dropped the camera and jumped what if the entire crew the entire crew got really really happy they were yeah i can't believe it oh my god and she didn't plan on getting the like the crew anything yeah there's little cube she's watching them celebrate and be really happy and they're just oh yeah i can't believe it uh and then she has to tell him oh oh oh oh it's like a classic sitcom where she would just be like she sees them waiting for and she's like oh yeah that's no there's a legal thing where i you know i i can't oh it was we both it's like a package deal and it doesn't it's only as many as was in the audience you know you know you you get paid for this job that's similar you'll be fine and your honor today i will be going against what's see he looked like that the six flags guy who j who's in the bus the old guy uh i don't know those commercials no no i don't think i've seen that commercial ever maybe it's just it's fine it's an old american um also what's funny by the way is with her premise we already have done this um we didn't atmospherically it wasn't that on the stream for no way home but if if you take it literally like the the films being considered a bill a masterpiece and we are um well you know i'm going to go against the grain on that it's like oh yeah we gave it a fight we said it was literally mid yeah so i guess we've already been controversial on that one and we're with her on this sweet seems like the rest of humanity by saying an enjoyable movie with a few masterful moments is not synonymous with a masterful film agreed yeah i even agree with the fact that she's using this film as an example of something that's like it's got a few i guess you could call them masterful moments i do think i could appreciate some pieces of it that way and unfortunately for me i will be using norway home as a centerpiece for this opinion before i begin i want to preface this video by saying that my reaction to no way home is something that reminds me closely of endgame because when i saw the game in 2009 i of course enjoyed the movie but at the same time going out of the film i felt like it was kind of not so great especially compared to its predecessor when everyone seemed to think that it was the greatest movie ever made a very brave thing to say phil she's practically ready for efab already like yeah i'm not wobbling though yeah um i don't know if she's doing that i know you learned how to do the wobble and it's yeah it's weird it's on everything like stuff i don't know if it's her preference of style i uh but i find it annoying uh but i don't know there's probably people out there love it i guess uh i can feel the presets that she's using because i use them sometimes for animations if you have movies but uh i don't use them all the time i think she might be desperately trying to avoid copyright when it's funny because i almost want to tell people sometimes like you don't actually need to do this like you don't it's like i'll have a five second clip i'll flip it i'll make it black and white i'll raise the contrast to ridiculous levels and then i'll spin it around it's like you don't have to do all of those things yeah making sure all right number one on every chart and every list even though i agreed that it was a great send-off for avengers i did not think that it was a great film wow you know i disagree with that but it depends on what you would mean by that well because we at this point think it doesn't achieve [ __ ] anything well but at the time i definitely would have said it was a great ending for iron man at the very least at that time period but i was also scared that if i shared that opinion i would probably get stabbed but the thing about endgame today is pretty chat on these days nowadays yeah yeah i think she's even dazed that most people probably agreed that it was a fun spectacle and i'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop that's the thing it's like um a reality that uh people just calm down no matter what and i think if you well there are certain things you can't release heart ticks on to this day but a lot of stuff you just have to wait at least a month or so like multiples of madness i'm i'm hoping multivisit madness will get to the point where it's just considered an absolute [ __ ] worthless movie um please be great it's only a matter of time like give it a couple of weeks longer maybe even the hype for it didn't seem to last anywhere near as long as a lot of the other movies it absolutely hasn't people are still talking about the batman a bunch which is funny considering multiverse has made more money now um because i don't know what you would talk about really dude i don't know matt reeves of watching multiverse madness and being told like you need to make a movie more like this can you have green lantern in your next film bit of a film as it could have been and that's the exact same feeling i get with no way home the sort of isolation from the rest of the fandom or people who watched it for feeling this way about he looks weird on the left he looks um the the actor i forget his name but without hair he just he looks strange he's in battle on i think it's jacob yeah um battalion battle i don't know if it's pronounced in a particular way but yeah the movie but i also think that just like with end game as the time goes on and the experience aspect of it will die down people will be more prone to listen and agree with the criticism of it yeah i think she's right yeah but what are those criticisms it's definitely existent with this one am definitely not going to wait well so i i guess i want to say at this point kind of like a style uh yeah and she seems fun so it's just like yeah you're right in those departments oftentimes we lose in that department when we cover people yeah abuses the wiggle setting a little bit but that's about definitely yes there's to say a critical word about the film and i'm going to say it right about now so there goes your disclaimer i guess before i start criticizing the hell out of it i am going to start on a better note and point out some things i like oh and by the way spoilers ahead it was fun and exciting when i could overlook the inconsistent writing and unfortunately this is probably the highest praise we'll go and of course i loved seeing andrew and toby and the dynamic between the three bug boys i i have to assume toby is on papers who the [ __ ] has ever called it toby mj however predictable and on the nose it was the ending was i actually agree with that almost every single person predicted that scene was going to happen and it did and everyone loved it yeah i guess it's on the nose in that you know what it means but i don't know that that's a problem well i think that's indicative of like an understanding of writing that you would identify that as like a part and narrative um yes uh points and and like that everybody was like this makes sense as a character payoff yeah yeah it's so easy to slip it into a fight and it's so meaningful do it it's such an obvious one in fact it's kind of like um you know how a lot of people these are all over end game but like for example the hulk never got to fight thanos again he never got to come through where he failed last time sort of thing and you're like what did drag get to fight yeah drax never did two these these are things they're sitting right there and they're waiting for you but if you're if you're a writer that doesn't [ __ ] give a [ __ ] then you can miss them but don't worry captain marvel got to fight thanos for like a pretty extended period of time that's the thing man imagine like you know hulk tries to fight him again but because of his wound he's not doing so well and then drax comes in right when thanos is about to give it like a kill shot or something and how how meaningful it would be but it's like oh well oh it's fine and it's funny because i think on a outside of the context of what we just said people be like you're such a [ __ ] lame nerd you just want certain people fighting certain people and it's like i know it looks that way it's actually not that at all yeah quite promising and as far as the nostalgia baiting goes all i can say is that i actually appreciate the movie for actually trying to incorporate the characters and the plot lines from the other movies into the plot and the narrative of the story instead of you know hey i agree it's great that they incorporated them instead of just yeah they show up he was here in the desert he had a crossbow isn't that exciting and cut to him laughing and cut to black but even though i appreciate it for trying i still can't help noticing the obvious inconsistencies i had i have hope at this point she's she's highlighting a scene that i have several problems with and i'm like alrighty this is what was okay yeah i'm on board i know that all of you are probably just like what is she going to say there's got to be something nuclear in here pretty good track here yes like the fine video if not it reaches above a five so far you know i'm happy with it so far into the story and that being said your honor if you may let's cut the actual video i worry about stuff like this for copyright myself i'm just like i don't know what you're using here i don't know exactly why can't i wobble the sound away he's a phaser it's not working what is that theme am i supposed to write songs uh that's the that's the mcu spiderman thing no no that's amazing spiderman yeah [Music] seconds so you know it's like yeah i think this might be a little compilation of all three or at least uh the amazing and rainy themes or maybe it's gonna be all three if we keep [Music] this isn't a good sign for me uh where it's like let's go over the problems the subject one peter parker it's like oh no that's actually one of the things i think is pretty good so yeah that's all right let's do it remember that one time the pier tried to be a responsible young man and almost ended up killing dozens of innocent people on ferry while trying to take more responsibility than he could bear i remember this scene previously on peter screws the pooch i tell you to stay away from goddamn copyright protection i assume the way she's done it means that she's protected but the problem is that doesn't protect you on streams definitely streams get a bit more finicky is everyone okay no thanks to you no this is where you zip it all right the adult is talking what if somebody had died i guess we can talk about that that scene that films point as far as i'm concerned is the uh he's learned that he should act to help people when he has the power to that's like the it's almost like a preset he comes in with that but then homecoming is about how what if you're in a scenario where your help actually makes things worse yeah what do you do and uh this part of it is recognizing the difference that's a really important part of responsibility but i already want to set up that um and this is something that we've come across many times it's frustrating to me the people think that then that's done then you've learned your lesson about responsibility when and you're good forever until you're dead you know like the rest of your life you are so you understand responsibility perfectly responsibilities like this umbrella topic that we are all learning about as we grow up especially from child to adult there's so many elements that are so complicated in the case of a superhero in a world filled with a whole bunch of different variables uh and just that his own personal life is changing and that's informing his perspectives on responsibility at any given time yeah and the film argues he makes this mistake not only because he's very young but also because he's also thinking about the reward of becoming an avenger yeah it's his the pure motive of just helping people is gone it's about showing off and being impressive to try and get things yeah which is again informed which i think is lovely dovetails into the fact that he's a kid who was born in this world and for the past however long how long has it been at that point since iron man in the universe i think yeah just like if you live in that world yeah that's that's a prestigious role model and you'd love to be them which is a mistake wow it's like turning yourself you know peter's like i want to be like you and he said i wanted you to be better yeah different story yeah this scene where tony literally shouts appear that sometimes taking too much responsibility even for moral reasons can be a heavily selfish act if it implies endangering lives of innocent people because if innocent people do suffer from your actions and your decisions it no longer matters how selfless you try to be their suffering will be on you sometimes some risks are not worth taking i think that's a fair reading the only problem is the visuals she just used we'll have to see where she's going with that one at least not alone and that's how peter gets to know that until he doesn't yeah scratch that [Music] i guess we'll allow it to elaborate yeah yeah let's let out fundamentally unstable criminals to freedom and put at risk the entire city because i may set so i don't know so where do you even begin i feel like it's weird because the film is explicit about this they have mj say because this that's who he is it's not about aunt may telling him to do something and he just says sure i'll do it spider-man don't really want to like kill the bad guys if he doesn't have to no it's right hey mysterio was more so mysterious fault than peter's yeah like you didn't kill mysterio no mysterio essentially killed himself um it's kind of like the glider thing right um and then of course in this film you're presented with if we send these people back some of them will die but right now we have a chance to maybe help them with all of the technology and all of the resources we have in our world and we should try this concern that uh by doing so you endanger a lot of people he threatens them he says if you do any [ __ ] uh i'll send you back which could mean your death yeah yeah the idea is that it's a calculated risk and that has that he can press at any time that will send them away instantly and he opts once aunt may dies to press that button but the other peters convince him not to for reasons which are pretty obvious given their backstories what the film is about um but again i'll let her carry on a bit thank god it wasn't just because may said so no at the time peter was quite obviously shaken and traumatized by the experience at the ship and even if that was not the case you would think that at least tony's words would cling to his small noggin for the rest of eternity but nope 20 movies later and we're sorry so here's the thing i think um something that has been missed in referencing that scene is that peter's goals were to be impressive and cool and to be like the avengers and be a hero that was what led him to do that yeah you know motivation is incredibly important as well as your capacity to fix the situation which i think both aren't a problem in no way home for him was worth pointing out because i think she prefaced this with the motivation doesn't matter anymore but i feel like saying that in reference to that first scene kind of misses that the motivation was actually a big part of that of like what happened it's the reason why i wanted to be better it's not about like oh you had good intentions and you screwed up it's like no you actually had erroneous intentions yeah and they clouded his ability to understand that this is a situation he was not suited for no and that tony was going to take care of it um well ciao right or something like that wow the fbi yeah yeah but but tony said like he was going to take care of it didn't feel like acknowledging that and yeah just realizing the capacity of the situation in general like um [Music] it's really dangerous yeah and there's lots of civilians and there's lots of literally like weapons dealers it's just it's just dangerous he's screwing around in the whole thing and like cracking jokes and messing around when it's it's kind of a important situation here yeah and then everyone on the ship is almost uh not necessarily killed but they're in danger and so yeah you compare them to this situation where he's basically the only actor in this scenario that has the power to save these people he has a threat to prevent them from you know running around and killing everybody and uh it's interesting that she said at least don't do it alone while showing doctor strange doctor strange definitively like inherently as part of his character wants them dead slash out of here yeah he's he's he's opposed you can't that's they have their argument i can't one of them has to win they both have positions that they can't reconcile yeah no they're both in line with their characters the one almost one part of the whole film for doc strange just like yes that is how he would do it good but as we've learned they changed that in multiverse of madness still as naive as ever except this time multiplied by 8.4 it's not naive he understands exactly what it is he understands what choice he's making that's what i believe this film uh concludes is that not only is he not naive certainly by the end he actually made the correct decision and it was a hard one and it has hard repercussions well because like to say that he doesn't understand that he's naive like doctor strange explicitly says if that spell gets loose like a whole bunch of people that we don't want here are coming here and he says i know but we can't just let them die that's his position he knows the risk but he values saving their lives more yeah which isn't naive um it's it's just complicated in terms of his his values exactly yeah like the right thing to do isn't always the easiest nor is it the most risk-free option nor does it even result in the best uh ending yeah it can be and that's what i think aunt may's getting at when she's dying well art may it's like her core point is you gotta try to like help people you know like yeah never regret that because it results in good people getting hurt or something the whole the whole point of oh just send them to their their universe that's essentially like a metaphor for just passing your problems on to someone else like they're his responsibility because he has the capacity to help them and just pressing the button and getting rid of them it's like no i don't want to deal with that it's not my problem like well it is your problem you partly caused this um and uh which is why it does cycle back to homecoming really well because had he actually saved the day on the ferry and everything worked out he still would have been at fault for the fact that he did it all for prestige exactly because the motives do matter a lot because here his motive was entirely simply to save lives even at the against one of the most powerful avengers that exist like that that's pretty impressive and it shouldn't be regretted which is what her point is yeah yeah it's like i mean i'm very impressed by the work they did for peter as a character and what they have to say about responsibility throughout the three films across the whole trilogy yeah million or something the tony stark had to spell this out for this guy for him to go mature learn grow go to space fight with thanos and then come back and have a complete amnesia 20 movies later and you might be thinking well that's why he's so conflicted when aunt may tries to force him to take responsibility um well i can't really force him to do anything she's just sort of giving some perspective on this when he has dark ark trampling through and all this other stuff going on he's just like what is the quick fix to get these guys back to the universe it's the most simple way to view the situation and she's like i've spoken to norman you could really use some help and then yeah and to to have that ingrained in there and then oh he's going to die if he goes back to me well yeah that happens a little bit later then once norman talks to the others but what i'm getting at is just that um he was like what is the quick fix for this weird multiversal problem we're having as opposed to these are people by the way yep like you might i know because you can easily miss that when you're looking at the mechanics of this insane situation it's like yeah these are these are actually individuals who are struggling and um yeah there's no like definitive uh position against sending them back until we realize that that will likely kill them saying it's not my responsibility and that is not correct the reason why he should not release the villains is not because they're not his responsibility because by spidey standards they are but because the risks might not be worth it and even if he does end up releasing them hang on i need to do this again so i kind of got lost when she's not correct the reason why he should not release the villains is not because they're not his responsibility because by spidey standards they are but because the risks might not be worth well no that's just by because they're here because of your spell that's not spidey standards that's just because you wanted to do this spell sort of thing and they're here because of you that's just a yeah and they're going to die now if you choose to do the take the easiest path there's a harder part and it involves risks that's true but he has a he has a cure all button in a safe place that instantly removes all of them i don't understand why people people spidey standard that's just just a standard for what responsibility is it feels to me like people don't even remember that that's a thing in this film like they forget that he has a box that can send them back instantly and the only response to that would be well he doesn't use it when norman starts attacking him and it's like you're correct because spider-man doesn't want to use it he uses it as a threat he wants to save them and that's not something that all of them rely on they all think he will use it um it's just norman [ __ ] green goblin and he's they're on the verge of curing him so yeah um and then he and then of course he is brought to the brink of using it um but that is a great bit of leverage because you can be like if you go [ __ ] rampant start attacking people you're out so you know what i want to do and when you're this is the other thing that's that i think is interesting about it they're all relatively rational as in they can speak to you that's like proven throughout the film through different memes and funny bits of dialogue and actual like insight but they understand the situation if they get sent back they die which some of them are so against like electro he's like don't [ __ ] send me back i'm happy here um meanwhile zama wants to get back to his daughter sort of thing because he's not on the verge of dying but the others are almost certain they are when they were thinking about their situations so you know as peter parker that they don't want to die but they also wouldn't mind causing a mess where they are so threaten to [ __ ] send them back which is a form of killing them and we're and we're good we've got them and and that works for a really long time for all of them except the one who is [ __ ] nuts which is hard to account for if he does end up releasing them he has to be very very careful about it he could have kept them in cages and still helped them these two are not mutually exclusive so he actually has help from norman to make the cures yeah yeah scientists himself yeah and even doc i think he helps once he's converted right doc ock starts to help after yeah he gets killed he's like how can i help because you know you got a bunch of scientists and smart guys here to help you out yeah and they want to move out of the sanctum i think that's reasonable it's uh the reason why i move out of the sanctum is because that's the first place doctor strange is going to go once he gets out it buys you more time at the very least certainly would buy more time from peter's perspective and i think that's all that matters yeah absolutely i'm sad i think it's a surprise to no one that the audience loves doc ock they love green goblin we know who they are and what they have been through and for that reason we're sympathetic towards them because we know that somehow all these villains have become villainous okay but so there's an irony i guess for me in that i would be more sympathetic to someone like lizard had i not seen tasm because i know that the lizard form of lizard is a [ __ ] idiot psycho like yeah the lizard part is i i think it's one of those like i've said it before i think tasm one is the worst of the two tasm movies it is something that we would have because i've forgotten the reasoning for it but i remember us thinking that yeah it we because we watched them damn near back to back didn't we yes yeah yeah so sing them back to back yeah i think lizard is a really a mess like he's a horrific villain in terms of writing and motivation or just uh the point i was making those that she's implying that our sympathy for these characters comes from having seen them in other movies when if anything i have less because of who i know lizard to be however the counter here that i really want to focus on is well they're people i don't know there's a reason why when norman's like peter what's going on like what's where are we going when he gets put in the cage it's it's like yeah when if you've seen his film you as an audience member more than likely gonna be like hmm what about what about green goblin is he [ __ ] around meanwhile if you haven't i imagine you'll be like this poor guy what the [ __ ] yep yeah so yeah i'm already heading her off i think that she's about to make a point that is completely [ __ ] wrong uh that we need the other movies to be sympathetic to keeping these people alive i don't think that's true no yeah yeah we do not somewhat unintentionally and the movie uses that same bias and sympathy towards the characters to manipulate us into thinking that because we are sympathetic and because we know for a fact that these people have good in them so does tom hollands peter parker no no no no no no i have good in them it's about the capacity for them to be good it's literally humans i don't know why this would be hard uh spider-man's interested in not killing any humans yeah you don't like doing that you would [ __ ] avoid killing palpatine okay like he doesn't yeah the idea that tom hall and spider-man wouldn't have been invested in saving them unless he had seen the films they're from it's like [ __ ] as long as he gets the information that there's a possibility they just straight up died dude mysterio tries to kill him and his friends several times and he doesn't want to kill mysterio yeah like why would you conclude that like yeah it's got to be he has to see that there's a good side to them to know that they can reach us and he's like no it's just it's basic human empathy that spider-man has i meant to say aunt may does with your permission i'm gonna refer to her as a plot from now on when in reality in the context of the movie no one in the cast has a damn clue why these villains are the way they are the only thing peter knows for a fact is that his alternative selves all battled with each and every one of them which eventually got them killed and now are sad and psychotic and for the love of god i can't explain how on earth he would ever think that these people could ever be redeemed wow oh wow jesus christ so but wow um mysterio was like a pretty bad person like flat out he was like a really bad guy and peter still didn't want to kill him because that's not really a thing that he wants to do ever dude he he scans doc ock with his little machine and he concludes almost immediately these arms they have an ai and they've taken over him because he used to have an inhibitor chip that's broken yep yep so what what is wrong with you like why would you say this this is very not what we would want for the character writing we want peter to shame about that [ __ ] being broken i guess you gotta die yeah because like you know peter has no reason to think these guys have any capacity to be good people it's like damn [Music] why would you want it to be that way where would you write off like immediately he doesn't know much about them so conversely he shouldn't write them off instantly you know you can just make the same argument in reverse it's like he shouldn't trust he shouldn't believe that they have goodness like he shouldn't believe they're all evil he doesn't know enough about them yeah and she's referencing doc having tossed a car with a person off like a bridge and stuff like yeah that's really bad but like he has no context for any of this and then people have similar let's say context being booped into this universe you have like sandman electro he has a normal conversation with both of them he understands norman is a very tortured man like if we all met these people and knew nothing about them outside of what we see peter sees within the first like act um with all of you i just feel like if someone said like we should kill them all right i'd be like whoa whoa calm down keep it light well i'm especially keeping in mind that norman went to the feast and like talked to may yeah didn't do anything yeah did he say his reasoning as well was that he knew that she was connected to spider-man like as a business hoping maybe he could find him here exactly he's like yeah it's a bit of a twist in the story right because we're looking for green goblin but it's like norman came to us um see i'm gonna roll it back a little bit just to hear all that again because that was pretty crazy they're the way they are the only thing peter knows for a fact is that his alternative selves all battled with each and every one of them oh by the way that's actually something he judges them for um because his assumption is they died as a result of the fights and he doesn't entertain for a second or rather he entertains the idea that they executed them and he says like that's your choice to make to them when when i send them back because your equivalent choices if you if you kill them that's on you which is um you know his his low point in the film where he's decided to relinquish the responsibility of preventing their deaths instead to leave it to his alternative spider-man yeah like that's an important element that uh peter says that bitterly like if you guys kill them that's that's your [ __ ] decisions which eventually got them killed and now are sad and psychotic and for the love of god i can't explain how on earth they're sad and psychotic as if that's reasoning to kill them yeah yeah i was about to say that's from peter's perspective particularly with uh norman osborne here like why why would peter are this peter look at that and be like yeah he has to die based on everything he understands about this character so far all all the let's just post betrayal beside but free green goblin coming out and ruining things what about everything that peter sees from his perspective would lead you to believe that he needs to kill that person because that would be really [ __ ] up what do you mean i'm getting weird readings off this she implies that he would have killed them if not for aunt may getting in the way and it's like what are you no he doesn't want to do that when he finds out they're going to die as a result of pressing the button he's like oh [ __ ] exactly i mean yeah if we're talking about meta knowledge then i think the person operating with all the meta knowledge here is you yeah and i'm hearing it wrong i would go as far as saying the film almost gives you what she's actually requesting in the peter's like they're from the multiverse put them back and then may is like well it's a little bit more complicated right because these people are going through stuff don't you want to find out what it is and see what's going on and he was just like oh yeah he just needs to be reminded of the reality like i said it's it's a little bit more complicated than just you made a split in the universe you got to sew it it's like you've got other stuff going on yeah like from his perspective it's a pretty simple arithmetic he sees that the powers of the x factor here the reason that these people are capable of doing such harm is because that they have these powers for one reason or another and that's the reason they're ultimately killed so you subtract those powers you als that means you subtract possibly their deaths and you add more of a capacity to do good because you've taken away their capacity to do harm like it's pretty easy to understand from his perspective yeah and and we know with meta knowledge that by taking their power you may actually save several of them definitely think that these people could ever be redeemed both peter and plot have no idea that at least half of these people have ever been good and of what they do so that's rather than they shouldn't like i don't know when you meet a human for the first time and you know nothing about them why would we assume uh you're probably evil then little thing called good faith this is like this weird moon night stuff going on here it's uh it's so odd that she's saying like peter wouldn't need a reason to think that these human beings have anything about them that could be redeemable like damn i feel like that's part of what motivates him at the core in the first place was kind of like when you have a superhero that's almost one of the traits that gets given to them automatically like we don't need to know why they think a person is worth saving when you don't know who they are very surely you don't go through your life really thinking like this i hope please they just rely on the sheer luck that norman and octavius do not turn out to be prone to compulsive lying along with their other obvious mental instabilities that they didn't like no they relied on them not being prone to compulsive lying but that's not their character i was going to say that's not who they are yeah it's not luck that this they aren't that thing don't that thing and peter doesn't have a reason to think they are that thing is aggressive and arrogant in spider-man 2 when he's got the the legs are controlling him and he doesn't take [ __ ] from anybody and he's oftentimes making fun of people too like that's just he's that kind of guy he doesn't i don't see him i don't even know what she means what does she think would happen if they lied exactly what is she talking about you would have to not only it's like why why would peter think they were compulsive liars anyway what is she suggesting they could have achieved if they were liars and they would they would have to lie and peter would have to believe that they were lying too and peter would have to believe it to such an extent that he would want to kill them why wouldn't he want to maybe try and help him out what i'm saying let's run the scenario doc ock is incredibly friendly he doesn't even do the whole fight scene at the beginning he just comes and he's like oh hey man and then doc strange puts him in a prison and it's like whoa why did you do that and then uh they're like you know what what do you do are you dangerous and nobody else tells the truth and you just goes no i'm i'm just a friendly dude i invented these arms to help me get around and they help me build my machines that help the world and hopefully you can get me back literally what changes about the plot yeah and to be like oh well then it's convenient because uh had he done that from the get-go then peter might have let him go and it's like yeah but then you have to just say well first of all he wouldn't but secondly why would doc ock do that why would he be like he's crashing around in our universe looking for peter parker um we don't get context for how he ended up on that bridge or what he thinks of the wheels he's currently in or what he thinks is happening but how he got his new shirt yeah how is it it just it abuses me to think that he spawned somewhere and just walked all that way looking for peter parker i guess i'm not sure i'm not sure what he was doing because uh smashing into a motorway probably isn't the best thing to do to get to your machine yeah and he was shirtless when he dis like at the point in the timeline that he disappeared from so he had to crash through a clothes store first maybe he was really cold or something because he was quite he was quite wet when he was uh during that point in the film in spider-man 2. yeah maybe he hates spider-man and he feels confident he can defeat him in a fight so i don't see why he would do anything other than what we see him do in his opening scene with spider-man like it's it's weird to say that can it's like a convenient thing that they're not lying to peter when i don't think it changes much of anything at all and then norman why would he lie he's like the personality of norman osborn not green goblin is this tortured soul that's desperately looking for help it doesn't make sense any in any way that he would lie and these things are convenient that led them to have criminal tendencies for all peter cares all of them could be born as sociopathic manipulative psychos and we as an audience undoubtedly root for the entire thing for all peter cares i don't even know what she's why would we ever assume someone is just inherently like evil and unsalvageable that's yeah that is quite the that's uh quite a damn nation on someone wouldn't be rooting for peter if you would just assume everyone is just a psychotic liar all the time yeah like what if mate told him about norman and he's like i'm pretty sure he's like evil we have no reason to think that he's a good person how weird would that be yeah and he thought she focused on sandman when she said that and he's just like he's probably the more clear-cut like not healthy person there but they beat for the first time he [ __ ] saves peter from a big electric shark and he says his motivation is to save his daughter there's literally nothing about him that makes you go oh well he's probably psychopathic actually so kill him because we are not not stupid enough to understand that without our already existing knowledge of them this plot would not even make sense you haven't demonstrated that at all not at all or maybe not not not stupid but we are just um unbothered enough to ignore how stupid the plot is but alas it's downright insulting how this movie tries to use our knowledge and compassion for these characters against our own intelligence as i said if anything tasm put me against uh two of them but like and i think this film helped by pointing out the silly motivations right being like yeah you just wanted to turn everybody into a lizard like wait what you do yeah and electro making it a very clean and understandable motivation from the get-go as far as i'm concerned in this film he wants power he loves the way he looks and feels in this world and that ties in a lot to max in uh tasm too yes and and just to be something that's not lame and loser-ish like he wants to be something more um and that's why i really like that once he loses the power uh andrew garfield spider-man is just like you know max are you and he's just like yeah i'm tapped out that's it what else isn't it yeah legends it's like if an end game avengers went you know what we feel bad for thanos he sounds so sweet right so this is not comparable because thanos is actively trying to destroy the universe you have to stop him from actively trying to destroy the universe it's not an apt comparison i also yeah that relies on our meta that just relies on the audience not wanting the universe to be destroyed i also don't mind acknowledging that there is a humanity in thanos uh they try to show pieces of it uh yeah it's gone by end game yeah and he wants to destroy tread the universe to its last dad and whatever that means but i guess to hammer it in it's not an apt comparison when you kill somebody it who is actively trying to destroy the universe like right at this moment and if you don't stop him he will yeah versus these are people who i have under my essentially captive i have leverage against them and i have the means to maybe save them i'm going to give it a shot it's just not it's not comparable yeah in spite of another thing to really mention here is like when you watch wolverine fighting someone or iron man fighting someone they don't have the same approach as spider-man uh spider-man doesn't want to kill people he's he's a lot like batman and that he pretty much has a no kill rule and so to bring up thanos in like the final fight in the west i was just like yo these are different scenarios we're talking about here yeah i remember peter was killing the [ __ ] out of the minions at the end of india yeah space dogs are okay right yeah just against our own intelligence it's like if an endgame avengers went you know what we feel bad for thanos he sounds so sad and grumpy all the time let's just time travel i guess my question might be like or something and yeah i cannot if what if like at the end of does she think that at the end of avengers when they had loki captive they should have been like nah i can't trust him and then hawkeye releases the arrow and it goes right through his eye here's the thing let's pretend for a second iron man snap there's a glitch in it and everything dies except thanos only his legs disappear and he falls to the ground he's like what the [ __ ] kind of funny but consider the fact that it's like well now what is he gonna do he hasn't got his stones he can barely walk he has no army i think they'd feel pretty bad about killing him at that point they'd be like oh they're not gonna execute him yeah and that's kind of what i'm getting at like the avengers are not gonna execute people and so um this whole like why not well funnily enough what she just highlighted there is why didn't they go back in time and try and encourage him to be a better person it's like well first of all mechanically that wouldn't change anything in their current situation according to their own rules secondly there are a [ __ ] ton of things they didn't do that they could have done and because that's all [ __ ] like the the whole time traveling stuff really bad yeah it's badly written i already feel hundreds of people in the comments this is this is a complete tangent but um uh you mentioning spider-man's no kill rule just reminded me of a comic where i think it was a spider-man wolverine team up and there's this woman the entire comic who's going up to spider-man going kill me no kill me no kill me no and then at the end of the comic they think they're in the clear and then the woman's just like yeah yeah i'm gonna sneak up on spider-man and he'll kill me from the reaction so she sneaks up on him and he just backhands her and snaps her neck by accident and that's how they come again grim reality see that that is though like that sounds funny but like that would be something that would be the the controversial and risky story to tell spider-man accidentally kills you know an enemy and what does he do to art school or something and yeah i can already feel hundreds of people lining up in the comments to pinpoint that that's just who peter freaking parker is it's what he does he is naive and young and stop saying you're talking about naive like that's not naive he doesn't want to kill people it feels weird because she's calling all of us naive then it's like because i believe in humanity i believe that we shouldn't kill people when they're in trouble like why would you say that that's naive that's so weird well you haven't killed someone today it's nice it's legitimately downright refreshing in the marvel cinematic universe have like a hero who wants to not only not kill the villains but try to save yeah go out way to save them put himself in danger to save them and try to make them better it's it's really it's really cool especially when most villains just get killed um like there's no consideration at all and to clarify it's not even just about the whole killing them thing which is crazy but like believing you can help people that's like a really good quality why would you say it's naive which means no idea who they are she's using that as a reason for why he shouldn't believe they can be helped when in reality that is a reason you should believe it it's like you don't know anything that would counter the idea you can help them he doesn't understand he doesn't want to save green goblin after he kills may yes it's when he kills me that it's like oh no i don't want to help you anymore because this is what you've done you know toby reminds him important that's right even for the people who do things like that we gotta save all of them right and that's why he's so gullible and always messes up he wasn't gullible he was right he wasn't going correct yeah what the [ __ ] when you give the cure to norman he no longer wants to hurt people he's a good man doc getting saved leads to other people getting saved in the film yeah how could you possibly conclude he was wrong like knockoff saves them and electro and if you seriously want a site that aren't made dies i'd be like so anytime this collateral whenever a good action is taken it automatically means the overall act is bad which is which makes you wonder like what do you do in avengers when loki's in new york it's like uh-oh one person died give give it up it's over yeah let him take the planet it's not worth it if we kill a person and funnily enough um i feel like that's the point this film is making that yeah it cost aunt may's life but that doesn't mean it was the wrong decision well as far as aunt may is concerned it was the right decision even if it got her killed which is i think that i think there's the message of no way home right is that doing the right thing is really easy [Laughter] there's a difference between a script using a character trait to make a person more complex and the script over using the said character trait to flatten the character back i can understand that the every single time we need something crazy to happen they rely on a particular character trait for example they're crazy or they're arrogant and in this case they're naive but again i don't consider what he does in this film to be naive um except with the spell character which i think is yeah that's relatively fair like that's much more on doctor strange than i should have told him what i'm what i'm referring to is that peter didn't have the capacity to say like we should plan out this spell and we should talk about the ethical nature of this spell like these are things that i can believe the kid that he is didn't uh pan that out in his head properly but him deciding that we should try and save people instead of letting them die or we should see what we can do to help them i don't consider that oh they're only doing this crazy plotline because he's naive no that's actually something that he's learned at this point and it's a strong foundation yeah they're doing it because he's moral that's there's a very big distinction there besides i don't know that um it feels it does feel weird because like the other end of this argument is um what are you saying that once you've used the naivety to to cause a particular issue in a script you can never use it again when like all of us are naive on all kinds of things in life like why would it's gonna happen like [ __ ] all of the other characters in the mc are gonna have moments in their films that they [ __ ] up because they were naive yeah like it takes a long time to become not generally naive like generally you learn it case by case and then eventually you might gain a larger wisdom from it by abusing and excusing characters every single nonsense action by it and if this was 2016 i would probably agree but after far from home that argument for this particular case could not be more wrong i don't know what to do with this yeah the problem is we don't agree on what he's done to be naive so she's concluding other things from that being established but we don't agree so is is what she's trying to say is like after mysterio peter should be like [ __ ] it yeah they shouldn't be naive about the nature of people anymore but that's [ __ ] up they're just bad it sounds like a villain doesn't it that does sound like this that you're literally describing a villain's arc why are you so bad this other guy was really bad so i'm like [ __ ] it they're all bad oh you're all the same all you people are the same all you villains are the same the only thing that you're good for is dying that's the only thing that is for you there's no other way i've seen what it does it's literally a villain arc we could all agree that peter does acts like an iv kid that causes him to do idiotic things but we sorry idiotic i'm assuming she does it on purpose yeah um um uh but yeah saying like him giving the glasses to back to me is yeah that's fair to say that it was a naive choice but it was built on a lot of what he thought was a responsible choice as part of the film's point didn't come out of nowhere we can also all agree that that does not make him an idiot who cannot for his life mature or read between the lines ever and i am bringing this up because in far from home the exact lesson that peter learns is do not trust people you don't know i i know not even close that's not at all what far from home's about don't trust people you don't know that is not at all is so much more about who are you going to be as a superhero in reference to the reality that the world has just lost iron man can you fill his shoes and then far from home says i don't have to fill his shoes i am spider-man i'm spider-man i'll do my own thing my own way yeah it's beautiful don't trust people you don't know i never even considered that was something that wasn't far from home i would not have begun to guess it if you why the [ __ ] would peter parker be a person that's like if i don't know a person i can never trust like no no he's a friendly dude he's he's he'll when he walks past someone on the street and sees that they're i don't know gonna go help some old lady across the road so he's not gonna be like hmm i don't know them they might kill her uh gotta be careful with that oh he's this is ridiculous and it's definitely not what is to be learned from far from home because sometimes people we trust might turn out to be psychos manipulators megalomaniacs okay so if we conclude that then what about all the people he has trusted and has turned out good would that not then give him a ratio of some kind of how much he should probably do it if there's only a one percent chance that they could be lying it needs to be taken as an absolute certainty and actually we got to remember this is the remember out of all the spider-man p mcu peter has probably more reason to trust than others because he lives in a world where where super powered people in general do do the right thing um a lot of the time we have entire teams forming with of superpower people doing the right thing so this is a very flawed argument because peter has essentially personally only come across what three or four people at this point with um uh powers and abilities that have done the wrong thing and that includes an avengers team-up style thing so you know what else she's just categorically wrong that that could even be something he could learn as far as he was aware he did know mysterio he lied to you yeah this is based off of his perception like a lot of the previous points so it's just like this like norman it's not fair at all he's worked with messier to save the world's had several conversations with him he's been told about this heroic history it's like yeah i feel like i know him at this point and i feel like he can take care of uh edith as a technology or whatever and it's like yeah well you should have waited until you knew him like how is he supposed to know that mysterio's entire point as a character is that he has a constant illusion as to what he actually is you never get to find out the truth so yeah just just enlighten me as to when it counts that you know someone is it when you feel you know them or when they reveal their true identity to you how the [ __ ] do you tell the difference well he was meant to learn this lesson i guess because evidently uh he uh hasn't and it's funny that she's saying that with the clip of electro going past when electro is kind of a good guy he just with the thing that happens to him he gets power hungry as hell taking that away from him puts him back into being a normal nice guy it's like no peter was wrong to have tried to help him and you should never trust anybody that you don't know i don't know what she means by that exactly is she saying that he should never have trusted that they wouldn't kill people when that's explicitly something peter's accounting for with the box yeah why would he need the why would he need to threaten him with that if he just completely and fully trusted him exactly feels like this is very incomplete as a thought differently from no way home and far from home peter's trust in beck's character makes complete sense since mysterio literally spends like half a movie gaining it because even so now i'm just lost yeah peter offers them an ultimatum well i'm talking about the fact she just acknowledged that mysterio lied to him and manipulated him into thinking that he knew him and she said you shouldn't trust people you don't know it's like peter thought he knew him he thought he was a good guy yeah that was his mistake but like that's he didn't really have much reason to think otherwise are we to assume then that peter just can he's just this crazy he's like i could never trust anybody because ultimately they could be lying to me down the road like okay science even though the script is aware of peter's naivety it does not treat him like an idiot even then peter's inexperienced in mysterious manipulative skills caused parker to miscalculate in his trust which my friends concludes in this scene what you are so to be fair talking about the fact that he believed this whole situation it was an illusion um that's to do with spider sense as well just uh being aware of how much you're being pulled and pushed into different directions i don't think this has to do fundamentally with it's not like fury says you trust people that you don't even know i really don't think that's the point being made what oh you're smart as a whip just a sucker and now all your friends have to die pause for the [Music] i don't know if it's protected or not so this is gonna be awkward easy to fool people when they're already fooling themselves and he's referring to the fact that spider-man thinking that he could ever like be the hero that who's inspired him to get to this point which is the villain talking it's not about filling their shoes about being your own [Music] peter you got to play a lot of this yeah i mean it's it's tilted and filtered and yeah but the audio is like clear enough isn't it it's a little bit clear enough yeah i suppose but like maybe the um and here i am to believe that after that whole nightmare that this poor child went through not only he does not have any trust issues or ptsd trust issues he doesn't have to have yeah you don't have to have those things though yeah that's the thing it's not like i took the boxes for ptsd why don't you have it damn it because that's not how it works if he did after this event that would be one thing but he doesn't have to i don't know after this after having died and watching his father figured die um if that [ __ ] him up quite a bit this i think we can argue did a different thing where he got brought to a rock bottom on the plane with happy and then by the end he says uh uh does he say you can't trick me anymore yeah yeah he's he's coming out of it straw it's like a thing right when you get uh hammered you can break or you can become like pardoned and i feel like far from home is a hardened situation where he's just like you tried to [ __ ] me over and i've beaten you exactly but he is also ready and willing to trust literal confirmed murderers i i i i don't know what you mean by trust anymore he just wants to help them he does he knows that he he says if you even try to do something you are getting zapped back to your own universe this is how it's gonna work it doesn't imply that he trusts that they won't do anything wrong does it seems to imply something else however she's simply referring to he trusts the idea that he can help them become better people i should be like yes don't know why you think that's bizarre for no reason at all like it's so weird to hear it when like that's part of a big point this film makes about spider-man like five days after being completely and utterly betrayed deceived and traumatized by a horrible person why why is he by a horrible person he recognizes the person who did this to him is a bad person who has goals peter knows he was manipulated by a very bad person if peter assumed from this point out that everyone was trying to get one over him and manipulate him and so he never trusted anyone that would be a villain arc that would this would that would be a totally different peter that isn't the one in the film yeah i suppose you could take him down that pathway [ __ ] would unless you unless you want to take him on a dark path where he just hates everyone just like okay it's your movie surprised by mysterio if his actions in far from home make him naive then his actions in no way home within the context of far from home make him out to be a complete halfwit because at the end of the last movie he is no longer a naive child but you can't just say someone learns something they're no longer naive like that's crazy that's just not how it works like you could only get fooled by a person in your life in one way just and then you just flip into being a villain that's just how it works i hope i hope not i hope this is just for your [ __ ] video and you don't you don't believe no one is no one does this no you could not operate in society with this mentality you couldn't do it he is um he realizes his own like faulty motivations in homecoming he loses a bit of his naivety in that film does that mean you shouldn't be impressed at all in far from home it's like she's arguing that he's naive in the first two because he learns to not be naive in this one and it's like are you what are you talking about that is like a constant trait for everyone you what you need to argue to me is that it was out of character levels of naivety for example like oh you know doctor strange was just naive about uh the nature of the book of vashanti because he didn't read the book about the book of vashanti that was given to the sorcerer supreme it's like yeah that doesn't make any sense like the level of um of mistrust and bitterness she's describing is more consistent with a consistent and long-term history of being [ __ ] over again and again not just one bad experience this is there's a thing seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding with how most people work where we tend to bounce back experienced dude whose gullibility has caused him a lot of trauma in the past part of this is annoying saying like uh his gullibility it's like a lot of it is to do with the fact that he believes in people yeah and it's like to to always shake that ability yeah that's what i mean like it's like we shouldn't just every time someone you know stretches out a hand to help somebody and every time it goes wrong you think he's so gullible it's like man okay yeah just being lied to and manipulated i mean that that's kind of how it is reasonable to believe lies based off of the information that you're presented you can be unreasonable but be correct if someone goes through a lot of effort and if they're very good at manipulating you if they're very good at misleading you if they're very good at warping information that they present to you the most reasonable thing that you could do in a situation is to believe that person exactly yeah it's based off of information that is not true but it's your processing of that information and what you should expect to be able to believe just because someone has lied to you and you believed it does not make you gullible it's ridiculous if we had someone on e5 who just you know i guess we've seen a couple videos from them and they're like yeah i had actually that wasn't even my first channel my first channel was all about reviewing soap if you can believe it and we were all just like wow really and he's like yeah and you go yeah like and he just starts making [ __ ] up he's like do you know the color of soap actually affects how it smells and stuff and we're just like really and he's like yeah it's not just like a simple dye that does nothing a lot of people think that but the nature of dying so there's chemicals yeah like you can't just die you have to actually change its components chemically and which like oh really and then he goes man you guys are gullible it's like no no that that's probably actually true i i don't even if you told me you were lying i don't believe you when you say that you were lying what you said before sounds really really reasonable what i would say is i'm not [ __ ] familiar with soap and i gave you a basic believability as a human being i don't know why i would just assume anything you tell me that i'm not familiar with is a lie that's just stupid yeah but no i would be gullible at that so just like okay whatever fine no yeah the color of soap is determined by the magic spell that was used at the factory to determine its cleanliness rating and then it'll be like i don't believe you using his youth as an excuse for his nonsense behavior even it's not nonsense behavior and it's sad that you call it that yeah it is sad so he's basically an adult at this point who has been through almost the exact experience what do you mean when you say basically an adult are you implying that he's still got time to grow like most adults do like he's 16 17 right by far from home i think so yeah god the amount i had to learn at that point still he's had like a whole movie where he learned things why is he still learning things like oh no because life is a little more complicated than that experience i promise you i did not have all the answers at age 17. i promise you that [ __ ] gullible yeah gullible hunters in this movie but somehow due to amnesia or maybe a genius writing that i do not have enough iq to comprehend it's not about you it's literally just morality i'm very confused why you you have such an issue with someone valuing a fellow human being's capacity for change and goodness yeah one of the people we cover have this problem consistently i am genuinely going to be as nice as possible and assume she's accidentally written herself into saying something she doesn't believe i hope so for this such a weird thing to say like i have a feeling that if you're in this call right now she'll be like no no no no that's not what i mean and i'd be like okay let's see what you actually meant because it didn't come through still has not to learn to think oh he's also a been to space battled with thanos is a physician mathematician chemist engineer but simultaneously he has not enough brain cells to decide against trapping the men who saw 14 million different outcomes of infinity war and helped avengers choose the only one that would end their victory and who is the only helpful and competent person on this earth when it comes to magic and who is willing to help instead of letting out five deadly criminals to freedom oh i guess she must have missed the scene this is fine we can tell her about it there was this scene where doctor strange says time to send them back and i've got it all in this big box spell here we go button appears ready to press and peter's like well if you send them back they'll die and doctor strange says uh several like a couple of lives in the grand calculus of the multiverse is a worthy sacrifice to maintain blah blah blah and he's like we can't do that and i'm pretty sure he says like don't do it and then strangers just like sorry kid what's gonna happen in the um he does a little whip grabby and dog strings like no um this scene is supposed to tell you as an audience that they are fundamentally diametrically opposed as to the solution to this problem doctor strange cannot help peter with peter's goals spider-man civil war kinda i'm sad [Music] also all of the things she said about engineering and chemistry that didn't that's not applicable to that other decision so you're right and it's really weird to to say about a person who studied all those subjects that they are those things if you know what i mean like he is a it feels weird to refer to him as a physicist as opposed to a boy who understands physics quite well yeah like i i'm not saying it's an inaccurate way to put it it just makes it sound as though he has diplomas and all of these things yeah i think like he's planning to go to university that film as you know like that means he has a lot more to learn well yeah we're expecting the next trilogy will be his college years hopefully but i'm not sure how that's going to work when he's wiped his personality off the [ __ ] face of the earth he'll find a way i'm sure it'll all make sense it'll totally make sense [Music] actually speaking of that despite the that was a joke the spider-man civil war thing but then i remembered that if the villains hadn't leaked ahead of time apparently what they were going to do with the marketing is they were going to actually just advertise it as oh yeah it's spider-man versus doctor strange this is what no way home is going to be about and then it was going to be this big reveal that all the villains were back and everything so i just wonder what it would have been like to live in that universe where none of the leaks happened and we had no idea about any of the appearances ahead of time i remember reading a really early leak that described it as a doctor strange and spider-man uh hunting down all of the rainy and tasm villains and putting them in the little prison cells and i remember reading that being like that sounds so [ __ ] oh my god [Laughter] but the context of it is a lot better than that would you say you were naive i was ignorant naive and foolable gullible it was horrible global i've also muted this so that i can just i'll put it back up [Music] okay let's begin with an elephant in the room if the elephant looks like an unapologetic goddess a strong badass and also a terribly written poor excuse of a plot device all right oh no this is the thing she's done with a section on peter parker we dramatically disagree with her about almost everything she said and that was the biggest issue she takes with the film this is like runner-up i guess or maybe this is the bigger issue i'm not actually sure but um aunt may was not the same as aunt may in the rainy films nor in the comics necessarily in terms of their um approach with the character in homecoming and far from home she doesn't get a lot of time he's um not as relevant as a lot of people would have preferred however i wouldn't describe anything we see as uh dramatically inconsistent there's there's gaps though ones that i pref would have preferred them to have filled like here um in homecoming she tells peter that if if something troublesome it was ever to happen he needs to means to run and get out of there sort of thing i think it's one of the first conversations they have um then of course when she finds out he's spider-man by the time we get to far from home she's very encouraging of him as spider-man and so it feels like there should be at least a scene where we get her to explain her position on how she feels about him being spider-man and that could be as simple as her saying i have seen spider-man do so many incredible things to know that that's your like potential i never have to worry about you being in some kind of ridiculous danger i have to be proud of you for being someone who's helped so many people that's sort of just something like that to connect the two maze would be aware of instead i guess they rely on us to just simply infer once she found out he was spider-man she had a change of heart in that she knows that he's strong and capable and i think that's a relatively fair inference considering her um her goals uh with the i can't remember how it begins in homecoming exactly but in far from home they referenced she's she's got like a a situation in a career of helping people right well because she runs feast which is the uh basically like community center yeah um because happy is talking to her at that place in far from home right and i mean and far from home at the beginning feast like she's the one who organized the event yeah and then spider-man will make appearances because you know quote unquote hero but also because reality is peter parker yeah you know well yeah well one of my um i guess criticisms of far from a moment that we didn't really get um a flashback that kind of continues on from the cliffhanger of um homecoming because i think that is a very poignant moment to see aunt may finding out about peter and all the baggage that comes with that but at the same time it's not you're right it isn't overly inconsistent it's just there's there is a there is a space there that um as audience members we would preferably like to see filled yes um and then no way home does a lot with her um and i quite liked a lot of it so it's interesting to see it referred to as an like a poorly written plot device okay give me your argument wrong words in the past two movies aunt may was just there her connection with peter was always evident and more times than not quite wholesome even but she could barely even be considered to be a supporting character let alone the most sensible one may's purpose let alone the most sensible one i'm lost should barely be considered to be a supporting character let alone a sensible supporting character supporting character by any definition a word i was going to say i don't know what you'd refer to her as if she doesn't get to be supporting or sensible just in the story was almost always centered around adding a familiar relatability factor to peter parker's everyday life and it would make sense why mcu would decide to switch up maze and then story arcs for obvious reasons but it's as clear as day that mcu never actually made that decision i don't know i don't know yeah i'm not sure what she's saying exactly yeah just because yeah though ben was already dead at this point in the story because they wanted to move past that point in peter's story they donated someone to play i think what she's saying is like they kind of wanted may to fit that role but they weren't definitive or conclusive on that choice and so she was kind of in limbo for a while that's my reading of what she's saying well um not until disney decided that they wanted to capitalize off of spider versus success and now suddenly on may goes from an occasional comic relief and a relatable embarrassing auntie to an entire moral and emotional backbone of spider-man because [ __ ] what i mean well she didn't need to be or in the same capacity so this i find it is i diverse made that happen like may's always been like a hugely important part of peter's uh in pretty much every piece of media about spider-man like in us in a sense mae is a lot more important than ben because she's present in his life for such a long time it's really weird to say spider-verse is what prompted the decision to make her important in no way home as opposed to this is the film that peter loses the most or you know all the spiders would be a better example of of them wanting to have maybe much more like of like the moral backbone yeah well what's weird about this for me is that aunt may in the la in the previous two films she was um she was never in the thick of it like she is here like this is this is this is a case where everything is coming home uh quote-unquote uh for spider-man so that means that she is going to be thrust more to this role and that doesn't mean that she wouldn't have been that if she was more if she was say in europe or um whatever in um the last couple of months just that she was never her place in the story like there wasn't really an organic way to to to put her in that role in the in the other film so that's that for me that it just read as you know she wasn't it didn't read as oh suddenly she is this it was more like oh now suddenly she's in these new circumstances so a part of her character that just didn't have much of a chance to come out before is now being allowed to be displayed i think i don't get it if feast wasn't implied or addressed at all right up until nowhere home i would feel it's a little clunky but it is set and that is just a great idea because what kind of person do you have to be to make something like feast like well you're gonna have to be someone who cares about other people right and that's helpful in terms of understanding peter it's he's got a parent who would obviously have instilled some of these values into him as he was growing up along with uncle ben likely a lot of a lot of that coming from both of them but the idea that it's like she's his moral backbone and that's like lame or something when it's just like well i actually prefer the idea that we have a strong reason for why peter has been characterized the way that he was up until he was a kid like you can uh rather like pre-ad 18 i guess like um you'd have had inspiration from those people in his life that were raising him like this it's the same for superman like superman which wasn't born good this the the kents are really important to making lark who he is um same for uh uncle ben and aunt may but like we having her reinforcing the right thing to do in this film is completely suitable i don't know why we would ever consider it like plot divisy yeah so we're saying we we don't want her to be in the movie at all then just some background character and just don't do anything with her sounds like she's suggesting that uh aunt may's sort of dull what position about doing good came out of nowhere in order to force spider-man to think to do good when it's it would have been present with feast like there's no way she has an organization like that and doesn't feel that way it's very implicit here it's just that she hasn't been a focal point until this film plots and this last minute switch up causes the movie to rely what's supposed to be the most gut-wrenching moment in the trilogy on the relationship and the character that was never correctly set up to have emotional impact of that magnitude i disagree of all the characters that could impact peter emotionally i feel like aunt may is the top of that list especially now that might be able to contest that would be iron man he's already dead so that's what i'm saying yeah post post end game i mean she's at the top of the list who else would it be like he's lived with her this whole time there did they essentially his parents i i don't know who who would it be you'd have to invent a new character in that way it feels like um the point that's being made here is well she didn't have like a whole lot of screen time in the prior two films it's like sure but the relationship existed and it's easy to infer what that relationship would be because it's pretty it's a pretty clear one there's some really good scenes with them though like when he comes home from the fairy situation i was just about to bring that up yeah like who does peter lean on in his most vulnerable hours in these films it's pretty consistently aunt may it may be ned or mj at certain points but aunt may is always the person that he will cry to that he will um that he will let those emotions out too like i think he did to happy and far from home but that was because art may physically wasn't in europe yeah that's the only reason that it wasn't to do that and i think it's really fair to highlight is she's like a rock to him there's no way she's reliable she'll always be there and she's taken away in this film that's last last of his family like isn't that enough already that's what i mean it feels weird that she's like you can't have as big um it's another awkward thing as well because like well it worked for me so yeah it really works i need i need a better argument than it's it's just not it doesn't work it's like okay what else you got which in turn makes the emotional arc of the movie completely depend on the last minute decision to screw tony stark and clumsily shove the no no the resolution of what his relationship with tony was far from home that's the resolution in terms of relationship with tony i'm not even 100 clear on what her point is here i think it's almost that tony was the vehicle for responsibility as a message and they changed their mind later on and then decided to make it may as far as i'm concerned it's it's tony may and ben all three of them had a hand in this park is uh well and and toby and andrew yep definitely those two in the end it's a lot of people i know a component doesn't need to be one it doesn't need to be just one and in a certain sense tony's role has has been fulfilled at this stage and tony's um and tony's still lingers in certain ways he's still using his safe house he still has happy who was very monumental and not anymore tony like well yeah he had um uh but he within the context of no way home like he's not he's not abandoned tony stark by any stretch like he's there's still lingering threats she develops set up to have emotional impact of that magnitude which in turn makes the emotional arc of the movie completely depend on the last minute decision to screw tony stark and clumsily shove the quote to compensate for aunt may's lack of emotional resonance with the audience in the past movies his uncle ben i disagree but go on three years ago yeah like i don't continue i guess hell's peter with great power i'm not gonna say the quote it is done in a way that these words that initially flew over peter's head were forever imprinted in his brain by the traumatic experience of losing his uncle by not following his advice when peter does not listen to his uncle does not use his powers for greater good does not take responsibility it directly causes uncle ben's death that is the reasoning behind uncle ben which by the way i appreciate but i'm assuming we all agree that's quite a coincidence the message is given to him by this man and he ignores that message from this man and the following day the man dies as a result of peter not taking responsibilities like wow quite a coincidence it doesn't uh it's not it's not bad in any way for me understanding why a character would learn something so important as a result of this event it's just that that is quite a coincidence yeah yeah um is less of a coincidence from memory and um in the rainy ones because he's coming to pick peter up right yes so yeah he's like in a town and he's just walking around and he happens to be sort of in the same vague area that peter was when you yeah it's just i think there are ways to write that that can make it much more cause-and-effect-y yeah well in in the original comic it's i think it's um from memory it's even worse because the guy gets away like in the rainy films but then he coincidentally breaks into the parker house later that night and that's what uncle ben does well and this is kind of what i'm getting at like um it still works perfectly character-wise it's just you know plot writing it's just like well you didn't exactly take much uh work to make those events happen that way did you and again because i already know this will perhaps is the the scariest part of this whole video for people listening right now it's like it's okay don't worry about it but it is something we typically highlight in plots right in other films it's okay yeah ben's death he needs to make peter see listen and prove his words to be true and here's what bugs me with no way holmes writing it makes this movie to be a living breathing contradiction of itself you see when aunt may hinted this to peter peter does not act like any other spidey boy no this peter is smart this peter listens to his auntie this peter does take responsibility which directly causes amme's dead oh wait if this peter did not take responsibility and sent william to vote to hell aunt may would have survived willem wouldn't willem dafoe wouldn't go to hell though first of all yeah that's true but secondly uh this is the part of the video that [ __ ] sucks she's completely missed the point i mean what's she about you should have gathered it already so she's just said the contradiction is that yeah she encourages him to take responsibility he does she dies that is the [ __ ] opposite of what's supposed to happen which is take responsibility he doesn't and she dies this film screwed it up host she doesn't realize that a second point is being made by no way home that goes beyond the first point that most spider-man content makes with its first story which is that sometimes taking responsibility does have consequences and you still have to try and push through anyway to still do the good thing even in the face of these terrible consequences which is such a nuanced thing to say may's purpose in the story is even though i have died because you took you did this that was still the right thing to do and you need to keep doing it you have to keep going on which i think pushes with great power comes responsibility to the literal [ __ ] end it's like what if doing that costs you the ones you love and that's what aunt may die saying don't worry about it it's still the right way to do it because that's her point is even though i died this was the right thing to do and it's kind of the it's the point that's essentially re-emphasized by the other spider-man it's like yeah she died but it would be in vain if you actually didn't like take her lesson on board which is to continue to try and save them is that crazy that's what it's read as a contradiction as opposed to an additional point well it's like you you've said that the point of the film is a contradiction when it's the like the point of the film it's kind of insane actually this feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the film we i don't like to pull the card of you didn't understand but this is her reading and this is not what the film was trying to go for at all and not the references that you can gather from the film i think something got missed along the way i think well yeah because it has to be if you were to ask like john watts he'd probably be like that was the that was the point like he would he wouldn't he wouldn't respond to that like oh that's an intro oh i didn't oh [ __ ] that she dies because peter didn't take responsibility right right right right right no that's absolutely not the case because this is the kind of stuff we talk about all the time if someone said like yep you should always take responsibility and help people no matter what we would the first thing we would say is like well i mean so what if and then homecoming what if far from home what if no way home the the taking responsibility gets one of your loved ones killed but it ultimately is the right motivation how would she square away that because the last thing that goblin says before peter cures him is like it's your fault that she's dead and in response to that he cures him like how would you because obviously that ties in directly to the whole thing with mae's death is to continue to finish what she would have wanted to to take responsibility even though it has these consequences how would you all the things we just said are what may says pretty much like i don't understand how this is missed this is really weird this is the the big interesting point i think the film makes which is the same situation spider-man ends up in a lot of the times but this time it was caused by him taking responsibility what does that say about taking responsibility it says sometimes it [ __ ] sucks and it can go bad because remember the point with him in terms of convincing him not to press the button is just because a bad thing happens because you took responsibility doesn't mean that the correct choice is not to take responsibility yes the terrible thing happened because you tried to do the right thing that's not a reason to not try to do the right thing yeah like the bad things can happen no matter what that's just that's what doing things entails well some of these unintended consequences can just happen an unfortunate thing it seems to me that had they let's say used doc ox tentacles to wrap around norman before he changed just out of complete fear that he might and then they uh they perfect the serum they even meet up with toby they sort that all out everything goes well aunt may sends them all off they all go happily ever after back to their places you'd have to make the video of like well peter was right like anything could happen peter if you had said to peter when he introduces them into the apartment he's working on them you'd said to him you understand someone could die here right for as long as you try to help them and he'd probably like it is possible yeah but i would rather do everything i can to save as many as i can which includes these guys yeah like i think that the lesson we were meant to take away here is that um uh responsibility and living up to that responsibility that is not necessarily synonymous with having a happy ending and indeed often it's more synonymous with sacrifice and that's a lesson spider-man will have to learn again and again and again and this guy going back to her point about tony this actually supports the idea that he did take a lot from tony because tony sacrificed himself to live up to his responsibility to not just the world but the universe right like in theory of ignoring all the problems with endgame and so this is him continuing on in that legacy of sacrifice of you know you know he doesn't just have may sacrifice in this film he later on sacrifices his literally his place in the world so that the the universe can be like it's spiritual he actually commits a very similar act to tony like he peter parker is killed essentially at the end of this film um so i i don't understand how she's reaching any of the conclusions she is the best the point of deciding that like it seems to me this movie has him conclude if i don't have anybody special in my life then i can continue to take responsibility and it doesn't cost them when i actually think that yeah soon enough we'll have an arc where he realizes that's not what he should have concluded from this that you know having people he loves in his life is important um but it's a great way to use the that's a that's like um doing the thing right where you have a full arc but you you add a little bit on that's a little faulty and can be addressed for the next story because um it makes me does make me wonder how they're gonna because you could do something interesting if the symbiote is there and it feeds into his negative thoughts you could have that arc where he's already at like a pretty low point then the symbiote comes along and then enhances those negative thoughts and you can have an arc kind of showing what a spider-man look like at his lowest point and then he bounces back from that that could be interesting this is a straight thought of mine yeah art this peter listens to his auntie this beater does take responsibility which directly causes amme's dead oh wait if this peter did not take responsibility and sent william to vote to hell aunt may would have survived and all the villains would have died all the villains even if they're not all that villainous yeah it feels it's it's almost like aunt may is sitting here in the call being like did you not listen to anything i said [Laughter] so what was the lesson to be learned here and see that's something it's like doing the right thing is really hard yes your parents should have taught you this a long time ago it is sad to me that it's just like what is the point here when it feels so obvious uh you're just sort of sitting you're like oh because in the past movies while uncle ben died to prove his point now aunt mate dies disproving it so so the point so you shouldn't be responsible if you're powerful is what you're saying you shouldn't be responsible if it means that someone dies and some you know which is such a so what happens if being irresponsible means someone dies now what if someone's gonna die either way or the risk if there's a risk that someone's gonna die either way then what what i mean i think that she's trying to highlight that as the reality of this film has now gotten itself into which makes no sense but like that's not at all i guess she thinks that just doing the right thing means no one will die like collateral is usually inevitable with these super powered conflicts that doesn't mean you shouldn't take responsibility and to try to minimize the overall loss of life by um doing the right thing well yeah i mean tony's dying at the end of endgame that's we should undo that then we don't want him to die yeah he made a mistake yeah what she is saying here it implies that the the concept of self-sacrifice cannot work because what if the life lost is your own what if doing the responsible good thing means that you die as a result well it's still a life being lost so now so is can we not do that anymore which hilariously makes your death a direct country i don't always win that that this is the point they're trying to say can't have a clean win that's kind of yeah exactly can't have everything of his point now aunt mate dies disproving it which hilariously makes her death a direct contradiction of her own words which in turn devalue the moral isn't this isn't this crazy like it's not a contradiction it's i if it was a contradiction you'd think that her last words would be oh [ __ ] well never mind then that that goddamn goblet we never should have helped him [ __ ] yeah you shoulda you should have killed him why are you so naive that should be listen [ __ ] i just want to be like because i didn't see if i can get the uh ripped no way home because the the fact that she's talking about this when it's it's all available in in the scenes themselves because she's like you contradicted what you just said on may and it's like man if i remember that scene that's exactly where all of us get our um our take from the movie on like that's exactly where we know all of this the point being made also you can draw in uh other ways it's just that bizarre that we're at this point um like she says must also come right yeah yeah it's actually closer to the comp she actually says the quote closer to the comic than the remy film does um yeah he says this is all my fault i should have just listened to strange and let him send them back she says no you did the right thing they would have been killed you did the right thing and he says but it's not my responsibility then she says oh what norman said my moral mission like because norman implies that the only reason uh is being done is because of uh aunt may having tricked him into doing it and then um she says no you listen uh and does does the line of course and a lot of it is implied in terms of um what he is supposed to take from it i suppose but the fact that he says i should have listened to strange and she says no you did the right thing as she realizes she's dying i feel like the point has been made yeah pretty clearly yeah that hero has to learn here since if peter did act like a responsible boogie boy she never would have died oh and i'm not done talking about this quote by the way is there a problem with hearing the quote used for million time in these movies to be honest no not really these words are a huge part of peter parker's story and without it his character and writing is incomplete by all accounts and i mean unless you wanted to make it about something different you can uh get the line across all the message across without even using the line so you know don't try to restrict yourself too hard there you'll be right it doesn't even have to be the message any any if you want to make a peter parker who's downright morally dubious or villainous i mean that's that's you could you do that you can tell that story yeah yeah sure not to post that intrinsically at all yeah you could you could do a story where like peter parker like retired because he killed mary jane with his radioactive sperm and he's really feeling guilty about it no it's all kinds of different things you could do i know about that one venom can be mayor a real popular one and that is exactly the problem every hero has to have a belief system and that belief system every person well no i will does a does a person have to have a belief system i guess i don't have to have a system of beliefs well it feels weird right so i assume you were gonna say intuitively was like they don't even that's not even a choice they make they just have one don't they um [Music] so yeah even though you don't choose what you believe but if what you are believing and what your brain essentially accepts as true propositions right if that's based off of a system yeah i guess it doesn't have to be generally you want it to be it's good that it is you don't want to just if you have a brain that just sort of accepts things very inconsistently then that's for instance being naive would because we've talked about that in this video if you're a naive person then your trust isn't based on any kind of system uh generally you want to you want to look at what people do you want to measure up odds you want to take their character into effect you want to weigh in what they might be trying to that because there's things that go into it well that's what i'm saying that's what you want to do but if you are naive and you're not doing those things then that would you want to then that wouldn't be a system and that would be bad um of course there's a system of a kind because no system is going to be perfect especially when you're making these kinds of judgments but ultimately saying a hero has to have a belief system uh i don't know if that's true or not probably is but she's appealing to what we would want to see typically as an audience we want them to want to see sure yeah um but even then i'm wondering like there's got to be characters that just they kind of just go with the flow they don't have a spouse system [Music] and that could be interesting to watch right what if it's a character who just accidentally keeps saving people like technically that's a hero but he's not a hero with a real bully structure bloodsport he's not far away like he seems to go with the flow for a lot of it doesn't have a particular system but when the whole world is getting threatened by the giant starfish he's like oh fine like i'll help you know when it's like that could have gone several ways um unless she would she would argue that that is his system at that point whatever he's deciding to do is indicative of a system yeah uh and and to call it a system that's not to say it's this cold calculated scientifically measured thing it's just more of a set of guidelines uh but i don't know i it's it's something i have to think more about does a hero have to have a belief system i assume she's simply referring to the fact that he doesn't want to kill people wants to help people uh and then really simply you know punish her will kill etcetera like it just goes on with all the different examples wisdom in the story is created by the most crucial moments in their lives for peter parker in the past movies that moment has always been uncle ben's death yes inspired by gave birth to a spider-man but uncle ben's words combined with his death were the ones that birthed a hero in my opinion at least but no way home i don't know why you would uh it's just like so groundwork before she makes her point in my opinion what births peter parker is a hero is uncle ben's death plus the line and i'm just saying like okay i'm very curious what like why you needed to establish that before whatever you're about to say but i guess we'll see everything in its ability to underline the fact that spider-man still has yet to learn that lesson which creates a paradox a paradox so when he says it's not my responsibility at that point in the film what he's referring to is specifically these multiversal creatures it's not my responsibility to cure them [Music] it's unreal to me that she has actually boiled down him saying i have power therefore the responsibility to help the people in this world and he's and that is apparently contradicted by him saying it's not my responsibility to cure psychopaths who are from a different dimension it feels like these are two different points and then may says no wrong you are still responsible for helping anybody where you can because that's a pretty different scenario right someone's in trouble because the criminals trying to take their wallet and you help them out versus there is a multiversal crack in the universe they're coming through we need to put them back beforehand you have a decision to do something more than that i don't even know what she's advocating for because this to me is what spider-man's stories typically are about they test that responsibility line in different ways yeah exactly and like this is something that literally none of the spider-man in this film have ever faced before like this is this is a pretty colossal and event so yeah there's another variable that people often like to just not consider instead take the character literally don't you think that he's gonna say some stuff he might not even believe fully right now considering the situation whole building is falling apart they've both been beaten to [ __ ] like by this person they were trying to help he's like he's pretty despondent to the point of saying you know what strange was right it's like you know he doesn't believe that but like this is a pretty bad situation and this happens in life all the time if you know me rags and for you like let's go let's go out tonight let's go to a bar and just have some fun he's like okay we go there we end up getting like arrested because something crazy happens and then if in prison i'm like we really shouldn't have gone out i i wouldn't be surprised if you both just go hey i know yeah but in reality we all know well no that's not the that's not the problem like that your decision to do that isn't the problem that's just it's just this weird result yeah the thing we did presumably yeah nothing wrong in this scenario presumably is from fringy's fault really reign in on your alcohol consumption in the future because it's starting to cause a lot of issues in storytelling you typically have a thing called a secondary point and what it entails is the hero pulling a little off the tracks and concluding maybe they were wrong about xyz and then they come through at the end and that's what that situation is efap is our weekly second act low point yay for these videos to process we have to build ourselves back up off screen so that we can come back next week and do it all over again because we're naive and we never learn our lives ready to underline the fact that spider-man still has yeah a lot of people fail to process a lot of the time um and this is both in storytelling um and just in real life in general is that when the emotions are still raw when you've just gone through something traumatic when you've when you're going through even like an unrelated circumstance you you say a lot of things that you don't actually mean you say them because they feel right in the moment it's called emotional reasoning like you are in a state where your emotions are very much guiding your actions but then eventually you whether or not that takes um a day a week an hour um however long you reach a point of clarity where you can once again express thoughts and feelings that are more consistent with your overall belief structure and i think that's something that a lot of people fail to take into account with these things to learn that lesson which creates a paradox since the experience and the words that were meant to create him never quite got through his skull right until now which throws out the index it's crazy to me that you have like you've highlighted that a character learned something and then later on it crystallized and that is a paradox well that's a paradox with uncle ben too how the [ __ ] that's just how that's how this works though like you're told something or you learn about something and then later in your life where most of the things will happen um you realize like it yeah it hardens and it comes to fruition and you really believe it on a deeper level it's not just something you're aware of it's something you're totally useful to trilogy it's about is like you get told it and you even try to use it as like reasoning for what you're doing for your actions but he's not like ingrained it there's loads of things to learn about the nature of it yeah you can learn about something on a very surface level you can um you can learn something in theory but then you know the whole point of spider-man a lot of the time is that he knows what lesson he should have learned from an initial tragedy but he has to keep going through different scenarios and different uh you know levels of trauma in order to really have that lesson sink in in ways that you know a singular event probably can't do like you can learn a very specific version of a lesson but to really learn the finer nuances the finer grain and texture of what it's meant to be you do have to it does take time like we as humans we process things um and we achieve new meaning or more refined meaning through uh the collective some of our experiences this is just how people work so i don't know what uh what's so confusing about this not even called like a seeming paradox she's that sorry contradiction she's called it a paradox it's like [ __ ] man entire course of his own character not only this does not make sense from the character writing perspective but it completely ignores almost all of peter's story arcs in the previous movies take a look builds on all of them he's been forced in one direction this whole time which is take responsibility help people good and it's always been good this is the first time it's resulted in something that he perceives to be bad real bad what does that mean does it mean the line is worthless it's like no look at the first ever introductory scene of spider-man in mcu and this entire emotional arc with aunt may has no impact since one of them he's no impact jesus christ yeah i know it only has an impact if he completely changes his entire moral course because someone he loves died i don't even know where to begin without preface with like no offense lady but like what you're saying could be learned as meme pointed out earlier i think with tony when he snaps that finger and we win the war and then we look over at him and he dies like wow that was that's a [ __ ] paradox isn't it and you're like what like oh yes you should sacrifice to to save the world he died but yeah yeah the you can't it's self-sacrifice doesn't uh it can't work within this framework whatever you want to call it because some someone's dying and that's not good like if spider-man knew that in order to save i don't know let's say five people he would have to die does she think he wouldn't like does she think he would conclude well that's not worth it like it's not a utilitarian arithmetic you know you don't he would definitely sacrifice himself it's about you know what you have the power to control versus what the innocent people do not it seems to me that she's concluded that if you have like a bigger loss of any kind of a loved one like then whatever you were doing was obviously wrong and it's like huh there's so many hypotheticals we could give her you know like the to see what she actually thinks dare i call that view naive peter says in mcu is the exact lesson we were meant to believe he's meant to learn in like one two three four five six man it's almost like you're getting it he learns all the aspects of it because it's a very complicated and long thing i'm pretty sure he's going to keep learning at least aspects of it in the next set of films too yep yeah i don't see why we will install this fresh face because this character is done they have learned what they need to learn they will no longer learn their learning is finished when you have a character like daredevil who's like we ain't killing any people and characters like punishers like we totally are and then you never have them bump or discuss that at all when they're in the same [ __ ] show i would just be like um why and you might be like well what are you trying to say and it's like so why do you think we're looking for that to be challenged like because it's [ __ ] interesting to watch and i want peter to be challenged on his core beliefs i want them all to be challenged in their core beliefs like if imagine someone said this exact same thing like iron man is a [ __ ] paradox in um several of the later movies he is giving power to other people he's allowing the government to have some kind of hand in discussing all these things i thought he learned in iron man 1 that it's him he controls it no one else the [ __ ] is wrong with this writing paradoxical like your approach with um with great power comes great responsibility can be many different things i don't know why everyone's treating it as though there's just nothing to learn uh other than that line i don't know movies later look when you can do the things that i can so weird to see tom holland in civil war now like he's so chubby cheeked and fresh-faced compared to just how beaten down he looks later in the other films come a long way and um i only ever interpreted this as he's got a baseline and that probably came from uncle ben but what does he make of it and civil war he's already imo making some mistakes being like his trust of someone like iron man is making him believe like well yeah iron man is correct in this fight it's like and i got to take responsibility to stop cap because bad things will happen if i don't when that's a very limited understanding of anything that's even happening and he's not too concerned with finding out more because he believes he's a hero he's helping and he's also [ __ ] 14. yeah you know what i mean like we've immediately set him on a path of being like are you sure about this whole great power straightforward or rather he says it in different words he says when you have the abilities i have and you don't help people you feel the reason those bad things can happen very yeah like childish sort of way of trying to say something a lot less elegantly but it's kind of the point yeah cause he's only been spider-man for about six months to a year at this point like he's been he is fresh on the superhero scene so he is you know he has stopped petty bank robbers he's like saved a few cats from trees but he's um he has yet to go through the full grit of what it means to take on that responsibility and that's what these films are ultimately about he's like a big bowl of putty and then the other films are just hammers coming into him over and over again and this film so peter has been living and breathing this saying since literally the moment we met him again like we can't do anything with this because she just doesn't know what this film's about she missed the thing um because genuinely if these films didn't even exist and we had someone in the call it was just talking about how it's always good to take responsibility like when you have the power to do so unless it's going to cost you the life of a loved one we would all be like hmm really you think so like if your parent is going to die as a guarantee of you saving like a bus full of children you not do it and that's that's just the the thought experiment this film's having that's all but let's have a collective amnesia for the next two and a half hours because plots even though me complaining about this quote might seem like a very nitpicky thing but in my defense this is the driving force of spider-man and the biggest moral message behind his character the same message this movie and they've managed to maintain it beautifully i think yep works really really well it's quite well written completely cheapens just because they really needed to squeeze in a badly written sappy arc right before the third act of the film i disagree but it's okay that you have an opinion that's sucky that's cute this lesson is too big of a deal for peter for it to be so comically overused and shoehorned and comically overused i don't think you understand that all of the heroes go through this all the time it's just presented in different ways do you think that like when iron man is dealing with whiplash for example there's no thought going through his head of like [ __ ] i kind of created this guy like is it what is my responsibility here like what am i supposed to do with this and he kind of feels guilty about it a lot as well iron man three ultras killian it's like the fact that aldrich is so jealous and idiotic that he's uh infected pepper with the stupid bloom whatever it is like um part of because robert downey jr some of his best acting is honestly in these films it's kind of weird um you remember his reaction when he realizes the pep is like close to death because of this weird infection um i have to imagine that part of his reaction in that moment is the fact that he knows that if she had never met him uh this would never be happening to her these are things that are coming up all the time for everybody they're just not as explicit because this is the focus for for spider-man yeah well like um one of the things that i uh to use a non-marvel example like one of the things i really like about batman and why i never really got into gotham the show as a concept is there's that question of is batman creating inadvertently the villains that um he fights because the level of craziness for gotham um you know uh criminals i kind of went through the roof um like the level of crazy went through the roof um once batman showed up on the scene and it's that interesting push and pull like escalation question there that you know it's it's about is batman's how responsible is batman for those villains and that's a question that i think permeates a lot of superhero media you know what is you know that responsibility is such a it's a such a multi-faceted concept there are so many um there are so many um ways to explore it and you know uh dare i say it's like a web that um permeates and connects and you know for every push there must always be a pull and um it's funny you say you gotta yeah in relation to like the nature of creating villains uh versus their heroes because as you guys are all aware a lot of people were like i'm so sick and tired of bad guys being a result of iron man's effect on the world when you think to yourself like all right yeah let's bring in another like dark elves from thor 2 that has nothing to do with iron man everyone loved them they were great villains and it's like this really arbitrary almost appeal to a intuitive position that a lot of people probably do think is right but have no basis for it it's like when you actually have them as a reaction to the hero's effects on the world that to me feels a lot more in line with like creating a through line for your actual story as opposed to by the way dark elves are coming it's like oh it's kind of how can i remember well i guess it's uh to refer to like the triparka matte stone writing rules having the villains be created by the heroes or at least the hero's presence in the world feels much more like a butt and therefore rather than and then the dark elves showed up and they were angry you know it's just like and then they appeared then the dark hills told spider-man with great power with great great responsibility with great not to say that you are you can't have villains with just the rise of course and they could have been great i'm just saying like this weird assumption that the solution to having good villains is to stop making them connect to iron man or something like what are you talking about that has nothing to do with whether or not they're gonna be good i think that only stems from a meta and frankly it would be the matter of spider-man's more important in the pop culture than iron man so his villain shouldn't stem from iron man uh in any way i think that's all that there is they're gonna get this is the thing if they made an iron man standing villain for him to fight in the fourth movie for the mcu spider-man i would be [ __ ] surprised i there's no way i don't think that's happening yeah i imagine he'll be joining at this point you'll go to college and one of the first [ __ ] professors he'll he'll be is a doctor connors and like maybe i wonder if they'll leverage the fact that he knew the names of a lot of the people he met in no way home to be like oh [ __ ] like hi that could be cool i won yeah i wonder if they are gonna i guess it won't be craven though if they're doing a craven movie sonia oh god [ __ ] what's um what's craven's like dare i say original or motivation at the core i actually don't know much about craven compared to a lot of other spider-man villains um i think um so i'm not uh because i mainly know craven from like the animated stuff uh but i think it might be similar in the comics um as far as i know he's a he's a big game hunter um and he's so he's a he's a russian big game hunter that hunts in africa and stuff like that and he sees you know and he's basically he's hunted you know he he feels like he's peaked as far as what he can do but then he hears stories of the spider-man of new york and he sees him as the ultimate prey uh yeah spiderman directly yeah yeah i mean you got a huge rogues gallery that you can leverage i mean you could bring back um uh you could bring back um vases as a uh as a scorpion that'd be cool you introduced him i want to see him a scorpion yeah and well he's usually created specifically right because of that's what yeah it was specifically spider-man nothing changes based on the spell or anything he'd still hate spider-man yeah yeah well what's interesting about scorpion is that he's normally created by jay jonah jameson as like the real like legitimate superhero this is the scorpion he will not only take down the spider-man but he will be everything spider-man should have been and then he turns out to be a massive psychopath so there's an interesting dynamic there you know it's like it's against that push and pull it could be rhino except he's an actual rhino person instead of in a rhino machine is amazing yeah but they were caused by tony stark so that's better it's like oh that's true it still makes me laugh that they put him in the marketing material when they knew they knew the truth they still put them in the market marketing i was just thinking about how um because this will just you know like we've been advocating for a while this is early on in spider-man's arc that's hard for people to consume as an idea when it's like these are the main spider-man movies that are coming out right now they won't see it that way until we reach at least number four in the series but further on maybe than that it's so interesting to think about that they're all you know they're given subtitles these films they're not given numbers because when you go it's like a rule right when you go past three it gets awkward um a lot of the time for a lot of people it just seems like oh gosh that's that's really getting along in the tooth huh um think about iron man it's like it went one two three specifically because of the fact that they probably knew from early on that robert downey jr is like i ain't doing this forever it'll be a limit and so they're like all right meanwhile spider-man i'm pretty sure they're aware it's like we are not only know that tom holland will be willing to keep going but we also don't want to imply to the audience at any point that it's long in the tooth that this thing is just going on and it's super active and fresh and wonderful all the time and that's how it feels like you can achieve that better with subtitles funny that you say that because thor thor love and thunder is the first marvel film that is like the fourth you know it's the it's the first fourth standalone uh film in the series and it's like yeah but it was called four four you're right like f four is a scary number for a lot of people four four four four they should have called it the four and the first two i only watched once because people forget about the first two you know but like a lot of people forget about and and they especially forget about for the dark world well yeah like we're at the point where in the future it could get to the point where like the equivalent of spider-man 8 9 and 10 um all made by let's just say for the sake of argument edgar wright and they're his sort of trilogy of movies and they all regard as sort of a plot line that starts and ends with those three and a lot of people in the world might be like wait sorry how many movies were before this and like seven spider-man movies came before you know and what i'm implying is like the fact that they're calling them the names that they have that it can make it feel like a fresh thing at any time well yeah i think a lot of people haven't realized um like they these films released very quickly like it's only two years between them because a lot shorter than you would expect origin trilogy is done now so imagine what they'll do next in between the release of the doctor strange films dr strange one came out before homecoming multiverse came out after no way home so he had a whole thrill i'm willing to believe that they have settled with better decomposition the same way they have a tom holland where they're like we're going to be using you for a while because a lot of people think that they'll kill him i'm starting to think they'll probably hang on to him for a while but kill him yeah doctor strange um no way they want to hang on to him they want to hang on to everybody for as long as i can i think until they find the right actress to replace him yeah because it may well be they weren't going to keep wander around until like one division and stuff and then she became really popular and then they changed their mind maybe i'm still pretty convinced that she's marketing so hard for the crazy choices they made because she knows her future is solid with marvel i think yeah maybe um well i guess you have to defend it right like if you're an actor in their film i think that's just that's a good motivation if they've told you we're gonna put you on a redemption arc and we're gonna make you a hero again don't you [ __ ] worry about it it's sealed there's even contracts related to it and she'd be like alrighty then i commit i love this idea i guess i have to kill a few children along the way and they're like okay anakin his ears at every given chance and every time for him to act like oh never thought of that that way before bro he never did think of the fact that a right decision could lead to aunt may dying that's not something that comes to your head to think about it nor is he thought about how being your own hero is all that [ __ ] matters you don't have to be like iron man you don't have to be an avenger to be worthwhile like these are things that don't often i'm starting at the point where i'm like so humanity 101 you actually think a lot of things sometimes that aren't actually true humanity 101 let me tell you how people work this will be important for later more later the actual problem arises we don't usually try to account we don't usually plan ahead for like multiversal villains to pop out of the woodwork i'm prepared um yeah i'm ready well after this man i'm behind i got like my reality anchors everywhere like i'm i'm ready that was my takeaway from this film yeah actually oh never thought of that that way before the actual problem arises when not just the audience but peter parker himself has to not only hear but learn this lesson for millionth time it's so incredible that she's decided that when someone says with great power comes great responsibility baked into that automatically is the understanding from that person that if i die as a result of you taking responsibility that's okay you really think that comes through like this stuff takes a while to absorb it's not as simple it's it's kind of weird isn't it it's like arc complete you're done you know you got it you're perfect you never make a mistake again you never have to learn the same lesson again because you know that's how people work when they learn a lesson the first time they never screw up ever again yep i think this quote is a great way to showcase the biggest problem in this movie look if no way home was the first one in the trilogy this would make sense but it isn't no it wouldn't it would not make a lot of sense it was the first film in the trilogy imagine that would be your first spider-man adventure just [ __ ] multiverse happenings like i'm spider-man please make everyone forget on spider-man in the first movie the weirdest the fact that he's had four adventures before this makes it actually much more satisfying for this to be the um well actually technically his fifth his fifth go around um in the mcu yeah sick right civil war infinity war and game and the three spider-man films so six yeah six yes yeah it's just kind of how you regard like a full adventure yeah i think the problem that we're facing here is a lot of people can't kind of wrap their head around heads around the fact that this is just a more decompressed maybe um origin maybe it can help by relating to batman i think the next batman film is going to have him learning about what it means to be batman in gotham again and someone might be like you're gonna teach them that again and be like well yeah because what he's learned so far he decided that his motivation was a vengeance for the horrific injustice of what was done to his parents and that can reflect into the hearts and souls of all the criminals in gotham to help your gotham it had a bad effect being that um it created some people who were inspired by him and are doing bad things which is a really interesting test of his resolve and so now he's going to add to it he's going to alternate it a little bit he's probably going to do stuff in the next one that'll make him learn a bit more about what it means to be batman i'm pretty sure the three nolan batmans are about what it means to be batman what it means to be batman or like what it means to be spider-man that's a broad enough question that you can filter through a lot of different challenges well yeah uh to relay then instead of because that's a bit more broad and people might be like yeah well it is complicated to say what is batman versus what is with great power comes great responsibility i'd be like well so what batman's working with is what does it mean to be a person who's going to fight crime like an inspiration to the city versus spider-man who's like what does taking responsibility mean because that can't just be as simple as a literal interpretation that applies to every situation it's like of course not [Music] like two different people will have two different interpretations of exactly how you're supposed to do that and i think that's kind of the point home homecoming is making that as far as tony's concerned he is someone who takes responsibility and yet he and peter disagree on how to approach the fairy so you know you you have all kinds of things to think about you set goals yeah by the way i hope that's what uh reeves trilogy is about if there is a trilogy to be had like i think there's loads to talk about about what it means to be a good batman yeah like this isn't a monolithic thing there's a there's a dimension and uh depth to um you know there's a lot of questions to be asked about how the right way to approach it and sometimes there isn't a clear-cut right or wrong way um and even what maybe the correct way is not necessarily the right way you know there's so much to break down there goals the movie neglects its own predecessors and lessons which peter learnt in them and almost presses the reset button on his character and at the end of the day you end up with spiderman who across every mcu movie starts and starts over learning the same set of moral sources no it's actually a lot more complicated what it means to be great comes great responsibility he's learning it through different challenges what that means because he's refining it well yeah because when you say with great power comes great responsibility it can be hard to like you can learn that the first time of oh sometimes i shouldn't act sometimes i ne i need to think about why i'm doing this it's like how does that lesson help you figure out whether or not you should potentially endangered you know people that you love to try and save uh villains like that you've learned something but it's not necessarily broadly applicable you have new challenges that will test your principles because it's not it's a broad principle it's it's a little bit hard to know how it's going to help you out in any given situation that's kind of the challenge yeah like save innocent person yes well yeah of course save innocent person at the cost of a bad guy escaping a prison well yeah i guess it depends on the on the back guy maybe and then some people are like well no just yes and then you gotta go catch that bad guy and what does it mean great power comes great responsibility when your resolve is shaken by a really traumatic event and you don't know if you have the capacity to help people see you go from one extreme to the other you're eager to help to now you're scared to help it's like there's a lot of different ways that you can sort of filter through this uh this lesson like i said we do this with all of them we did it with iron man each of his films are just about the power of his weaponry going to like bad things happening as a result of different choices he makes about who should have access to them and who gets to decide where they go yeah the idea that this lesson is just something you learn once and you're covered forever it's just instead of learning all the ways that can be applied very i don't that's just not how something this broad works i can't believe this isn't said about the raimi films then because if you guys remember what brings him back in spider-man 2 is hearing when he saved the person in the fiery building they said they'd lose someone and you know someone was still in there and they're gone it sucks but that's it and peter realizes like [ __ ] if i was spider-man i could have saved that guy too instead i was in a pocket and then you'd be like yeah wait a minute he's learning he's learning about responsibility and power in the second spider-man movie he learned that already in the first one calm down okay jeez lessons which in actuality have been his entire driving force from the get-go over and over and over no his driving force of the core is he should help people if he has the power to do so you understand these circumstances challenge that with complications like i just said with the prisoner example like these are not easy questions it's easy when it's like do you save the drowning baby you're like well sure you save the droughty baby if it costs another baby's life you'd be like whoa why have you done that now i don't know what i'm supposed to do don't you trolly problem me exactly again and by now you might be thinking well who cares if the writing in this movie is not great it's fun okay this is well look all right i don't know well there's definitely going to be people who would say like who cares about the writing it's fun yeah it's unfortunate how many of those people exist well i guess it's just kind of funny because it's like i agree with the perspective of it does matter what the quality of the writing is regardless of how much fun somebody's having we just don't disagree on the quality we don't agree on the quality of the writing in this film i suppose the irony is we do agree with her conclusion of the quality of the writing but we've got completely different workings yeah that's true um yeah and enjoyable and i love it and i'll say your honor exactly okay you made this first so let's get to the real point of this video huh i'm just gonna mute this um [Music] buddha man bundle brush brundle bleed now i can put it back up again [Applause] the actual point of this video is not me shaming anyone for liking enjoying or even loving this movie because i can't get behind that it's not my intention to shame anyone for enjoying it because i am not crazy and i do understand the appeal and i am definitely not going to pretend like i didn't cheer multiple times during it but i am going to shame everyone who's gonna confused a few scenes worth of personal joy for a two and a half hour long masterfulness you know that's the thing i i don't disagree with her i think that's fine no it's so weird because we're back to agree with her now because she's done with all her points this is really awkward yeah there's no way you're gonna play a great school teacher here and go well you know your conclusion is correct but all your workings are um they still got to give you an f on this one i'm surprised you get the conclusion right honestly you'd have to put apply yourself and then underline it twice yes apply yourself practical for many obviously yes was it a painfully flawed movie absolutely does one excuse the other absolutely not even by marvel standards something tells me that in few years most people won't remember no way home for its flawless plot or amazing dialogue okay so nobody did not have a flawless plot and nobody says that about no way homie now i don't know anybody that said it has a flawless plot that's i feel like a lot of people are pretty upfront about that they recognize that there are going to be problems with that because the fact is multiverse alone makes people go like uh we're in uh well it's like time travel isn't it it's just like uh this is a big variable what she's saying here i i've cut her off because i want to say like what people should likely remember this for in a long time it's just ma'am was it neat to have the three spider-man together that's probably what it's gonna be yeah especially as we get more [ __ ] multiverse movies it'll probably stand out even more as like man remember how like they actually leveraged those characters and gave them arcs that were tied into the central arc of the main peter and this world and that was cool hopefully with the more spider-man films that come out this is seen as like ah this is quite foundational and if you think about what happened in this one it informs blah blah blah it's kind of like how no way home made people realize oh this was the origin trilogy yes it took until no way home for people to see where it was building and i ain't gonna let people get away with like their own revisionist history where they think it's revisionist history that that was john watts plan it clearly was you can see that in the films leading up there's no way home it's weird for me because it's like even if john moss was to be hit by a car today and we never hear from him ever again or confirm any of this i'd just be like well it's evident from the three films you can see it well and even if it wasn't his intention that's what he created even if that wasn't but i i'm pretty sure it was i even think it's in the names homecoming yeah far from home and home representing representing like your safe and understood childhoods yeah and no way home is like it's over there is no way home there's no way back to what you wear it's you've grown out of it now it's done yeah you're you've got to push forward with the circumstances that you now find yourself in knowing that there is no way back it's um it's actually pretty neat yes um every day we drift further from home the funny thing is i think she's going to use this as a criticism like people aren't going to say it has good plot once time goes over because they'll realize like my criticism of this format is usually people won't even remember what happened uh in the film like multivisit madness no one is going to remember the plotline for that [ __ ] movie other than which killed everybody right the big example would be black panther got like huge accolades but not only do i not really see people talk about it but even when they do all it is is like oh yeah killmonger was pretty good but no appeal to anything like really specific like nobody really talks about specific moments in these films and i guarantee you my problem with marvel films if you ask them what is killmonger's origin like who are his parents guarantee you they won't know the answer to that yeah and it's um it's kind of people remember the dark knight interrogation sequence you know people remember uh people i mean goddamn like people remember in spider-man 2 right like um they remember uh the scenes between um between peter and uh and doc they remember uncle ben's death in the first film i mean you know say what you will about those films overall um but like that's and i guess that's the thing is i think that people will remember the big payoffs in no way home i think multiverse of madness might have staying power with the um the spirit scene maybe some people will be like i remember that was great i guess i i kind of want something more than just like of course what i'm implying is that sam roomies flourishes might actually be able to make some people remember parts of it but uh the writing isn't gonna be the reason well yeah it'll be do you remember what the story was about and yeah and and to illustrate that writing alone can often be like everyone references the rooftop discussion between daredevil and punisher and that's there's no spectacle there that's that's a discussion one of my favorite scenes in norway home is the three of them talking to each other just having a discussion about their history yeah and a more climactic moment would probably be remembered as probably the discussion on the workshop no i was going to say toby it's the more spectacle related one toby stopping the glider wider yeah i think that'll be remembered i guess the problem is it's hard to make appeals to what will or will not be remembered other than just a kind of impression that you get yeah i am um and i want to say like we're trying to be fair here like because it sounds like it's like oh you're just going to say people will remember the ones you think are good and i'm just like there are there are complications to how people remember things you need impactful moments like tony snapping his finger at the end of end game will be remembered but it's not particularly well done mechanically um well i think people remember feeling that they had at the time and and then what they retained that feeling i think does have something to do with like what surrounds that material um i don't i don't know that anybody's gonna find anything like super meaningful and like multiverse of madness when you can't really appeal to anything else that was in the film i was thinking about like why is terminator 2's ending the thumbs up is t800 is like going into the lava why is that so meaningful it's like well the reason why is because of everything that was leading up to that moment it's the whole film yeah that final this character essentially going on that arc and john going on the arc well um it's it's all of those moments of those two characters interacting and learning from each other um that makes that meaningful it's not just the moment itself and i think a big problem with a lot of marvel stuff lately has been that it hinges on like these big moments that kind of get carried a lot more by the acting than any of the writings supporting it um i don't feel that same way about no way home i think that there's a lot of great supporting material uh yeah of spider-man as well impressive frankly yeah um i think the only thing you can as far as like memorability is concerned you have to i think something to look at is um when it comes to especially when it comes to the meaning of um a given work um especially when it's so fresh i guess the the main thing you can point to reference wise is how much meaning do you have to project onto something versus how much is um i guess implicit or explicit within the writing like how much of this uh you know how much can be um brought brought in like molly vs madness if someone does find something really meaningful with that film i imagine it would be a lot of projection of what they want to see but that's not going to be as universal as say a theme or a character arc that can be definitively broken down um but of course that's not always universal i've had people unironically tell me that they found civil war completely unmemorable and felt no compulsion to ever watch it again and i'm just like oh well okay yeah it's your that's your prerogative but um yeah it's a it's it's an interesting one few years most people won't remember no way home for its flawless plot or amazing dialogue creativity mind-blowing action scenes or character development in my opinion it will most likely be remembered for scenes that people will be able to easily search up on youtube and watch all of it under 15 minutes instead of going through two hours of plot full of holes with nonsensical elements i don't agree i think people will really like the spiderman talking to each other quite a bit and i think that i think that stuff will last i guess she's saying you could switch that up on youtube but like do that with pretty much anything except anything though i don't know what that doesn't apply to especially if i know the context behind the payoff i'll watch the payoff on youtube and it works since steak some terrible jokes underwhelming action overused cgi underwhelming action underwhelming action i don't know like she says that's the case like all right then all right if you take away to like clarify yeah when i say like oh i was just like she's not giving any arguments so we can't do anything with that she's like well you think that we don't bye-bye action overused cgi if you take away anything under use cgi overuse i think overused overused video i don't want it to be that no way home is a complete trash or a terrible movie but that we should stop interpreting just a few minutes of joy as a two-hour long greatness because i agree yeah yeah um i wonder if that's an issue with this movie it's funny right like it's we agree with the point but we just like disagree with everything else i guess yeah how did you get here how did you somehow arrive here the biggest purpose is to treat itself and serve as a high budget context for a few nostalgic scenes written by people who do their absolute best job at being the most mediocre is going to be new stable for the films if they want to be baptized character stuff there's they did some really excellent character work this the movie you're saying that about in phase four yeah this is the one that like has things that legitimately are great about it yeah these masterpieces both by box office and the audience we're in for experience that's what did she think of multiverse madness honestly what did she think of it did she ever love it because seriously i'm curious after watching this i don't know if she hated it or loved it well there you go should have spent a bit more time focusing on the material and learning and paying attention to what it was trying to say perhaps she didn't even address it as a counter like that the point was that you can lose people when taking responsibility so it seems to me she just doesn't know about that doesn't know it's a thing i just think i understand what the film was saying i guess it's uh interesting because there's a lot of like those broad statements about i guess that you could apply to other films i agree with and you know like the writing actually matters regardless of how much fun you had with us like yeah that's true you know films are more than just like one or two really cool scenes but then you ignore everything else i totally agree with that but i it just feels like um somewhere along the line just like a misreading of the film but like a really big misreading of the film and you had references but it was like references that it felt like would just confused i guess so it's it's like there's aspects of this video that like i appreciate in terms of there was a process and an attempt to appeal to the content that was in the film and to make a broader point but like i just don't agree with the references at all or like the the point that you're trying to lead up to um yeah it's the whole you gotta the workings are wrong but the conclusion is correct it's like you're doing the process that i prefer which is trying to appeal to the content that's in the film to make a point but it's like taking a piece of a reference that exists but like coming away with a basically like a diametrically opposed uh interpretation uh to what i had um it's it's just interesting that's all like this video is really interesting compared to other videos where it's like really frustrating you know reading through some of the some of the comments as well so in conclusion some of them say like oh you're gonna bring the wrath of the spider-man fandom and you know good luck with the the people who are gonna hate on this so we've uh witnessed the wrath of the spider-man phantom plenty of times we we sit in a very unique position with a lot of different takes but don't worry about it but at the same time um i think i kind of like her style and i'd be interested in hearing if only her scripts made more sense to me because it seems to me that everything would have been fine if her references were accurate she she is able to conclude like if what she said were things that actually happened the video would be fine um yeah i think foundationally she has a lot of strong points she there's just a little there's just improvements that uh uh that need to be working learn what the film is telling you well it is it is the case like references the references were i guess that's the thing it's like you had references it's just i totally disagree with the uh with the interpretation of those references i mean like you had references you know like at least you that was the process that you were doing so in that sense i can appreciate it even though i don't agree with the conclusion at all i'm so baffled that she missed it that i really really want to know how she deals with being told about it i want to know if it's a matter of her being like no that's ridiculous in the movie or if she would go oh no i know i know that was part of the point it's just that and then she explains it because genuinely curious how that that wasn't addressed in the video at all and i think that's the the biggest point the film is making and i guess it might be uh i wonder how many discussions were had with other people about the uh the film because it can just be helpful in terms of uh getting that perspective yeah because i guess that's the thing is like i'm surprised that in going through the film and making this video that um she wouldn't have encountered that perspective on like the great power comes then again i guess i wonder like how thorough the conversations surrounding the film are maybe they haven't been that thorough in a lot of circles yeah maybe maybe for a lot of people it is as simple as man it was really cool when toby mcguire came and that was fun maybe you know maybe that was the case for a lot of people yeah um if she ever sees this i hope you don't take it too badly i just thought your video was really bad that's all yeah yeah yeah but you can improve you know that references are important and that's a lot better than a lot of people um unfortunately for me it's even as simple as hey you know like just because you enjoy it doesn't mean the writing is good it's like once you cross that bridge already i feel like you're on a good track you know i think so she seemed to take grand issue with people who confuse how they felt about the thing with how well it's constructed and it's like girl you're already in our land great welcome pretty much it's a scary place out here in these wild lands where it's like caleb yeah like a lot of people don't get to level one like this if this is an mmo you you know just the distinction between enjoyment and qualities like level one and then you kind of go from there i think everybody knows it's the reason why people will say i can appreciate that's a great film i just didn't like it it's like right so you recognize the craft i mean it's what a lot of people have with the godfather or blade runner right where they're like yeah no it's great but i didn't like it it's like hmm why would you say that like what does that mean if not that there's a distinction between your personal enjoyment of something and the craft i think i think that everybody know it's kind of the reason why it's like i feel like everybody uses the system of consistency in one way or another like everybody recognizes that there's a difference between like the prestige and the room like nobody's going to pretend like oh well you know you could argue that these are both as good or bad as each other no nobody believes that not really yeah i guess it's uh there's a more maybe i'll re re reword that as there's a more conscious focus rather than a a convenient focus like it's when it's convenient to have the distinction i will go for it but otherwise it doesn't exist yeah yeah yeah um which brings us to video number two on the on the similar topic in a sense but it's a bit different this one from um it's from full fat videos we've covered him before we've even spoken to him and he's told me that uh he's totally fine with with us covering this so i'm i i'm super excited it's gonna be great um it's called the batman did what spider-man no way home couldn't what now that's an interesting comparison because i don't know what these two films have in common so they released around the same time in their superhero movies so a gun to my head right and someone said agree with that statement now and develop it i'd be like okay so that uh the batman was it just it [ __ ] looks better it's more cohesive visually it's no way home has got the marvel problem where it's like a bit jumbled um but the batman felt like incredibly consistent visually throughout and that assists in atmosphere as well as uh just just binding you into it i think that that's something that i suppose i think the batman did better than no way home and to say no way home couldn't do it actually implies to me that yeah maybe they couldn't because of the fact that it's the marvel formula and they have all these kinds of weird ways of making everything and so it can't be given the time and space it needs maybe to to do the vision quote-unquote thing even though i have plenty of praise about no way home's visuals i just i just do think there's a lot more inconsistencies about the way that it's directed compared to something like the batman which feels like that the batman is exceptional visually yeah it is well well well above like average or possible it's it's really inspired visually but yeah and in reality i would opt to agree with what frankie said which is like wait why are we comparing what do you mean no way home couldn't i'd be like what are we what are we saying here couldn't or didn't you know yeah couldn't it was a different word isn't it like because my the first thing that comes to my mind is homecoming would be the the more relevant comparison because they're kind of because like the batman is kind of the homecoming of batman if that makes um any sense where it's like yeah but the thing is is that the batman and and no way home was like the comparison i saw going around a lot i think i even talked about a cosmonic episode it's like why are we comparing the cinematography of no way home to the batman specifically rather than like uncharted or any other number of films that came out around that same time it just feels like people forgot uncharted happened i don't think people knew it happened at all yeah i mean i'm pretty sure that's the highest grossing film of the year well yeah but like culturally in our circles i don't i don't think i saw anyone mention it apart from you and maybe an ad well yeah i mean it's uh yeah no i get you i guess what i'm saying is it's kind of funny that it was the batman rather than like any other film i didn't see any other comparison to any other film that came out around that time like it's just funny to me that's all but let's see what batman did that no way home couldn't shall we all right okay definitely interesting question full spoilers for spider-man no way home and the batman that's a-okay because we have seen them oh yeah yeah yeah well batman oh i don't think they revealed that yet both spider-man and batman have recently graced the silver screen with big budget temples that cost a fortune and both fans made me mistake sorry i don't want to be too nitpicky but that's a bit redundant to say big budget films are cost a fortune oh yeah you are correct i don't want to be too nitpicky but like that's funny i opted to just smoke what he said it i was just like yeah well i wasn't sure that cost a fortune and both films made me nostalgic for their respective superhero movies in the 2000s namely spider-man no way home may be reminiscent of the incredible craft deployed by sam raimi don burgess and bill pope craft i just always thought it was amazing that they were able for the scene where he's in the mirror that they were able to find a body double for um is this uh what's what's the actor uh oh dafoe right they were able to find a body devil for william defoe and have him be in that other room and having him mimic everything he said just perfectly the time and talent that sam raimi takes to make these shots work is it really is incredible it's not worth understating well i feel like there's that's there's a there's a tinge of a undertone to that phrase i i don't even know uh i just think what he said was beautiful that's all i have to say yeah yeah okay yeah how many times how many times do you think they had to try this shot to get it just right to get these two actors to align so perfectly they built an entire separate room what's going on i was actually gonna just go for the like you know what it's up for interpretation of what is happening you know and i googled willem defer body double and this article came up i needed a penis i knew about that yeah i remember people talking about spiderman no way home may be reminiscent of the incredible craft deployed by sam raimi don burgess and bill pope craft that is lacking in poorly lit overly green screen sloppily scripted scenes meant to desperately tie together well i guess it depends on which scripture um this is the that's the portion of the video where you sort of there's not much we can do with this until you know your references before we have some qualifications it's like all right if that's how you feel decades of spidey film canon so that tom holland can stand alongside andrew garfield and toby maguire the batman may be nostalgic for 2005's batman begins and 2008's the dark knight but not because it is derivative of those movies or because this iteration of batman pales in comparison instead makes me think back to a time when these big budget movies flexed with awesome practical action and watertight scripts hey that's fine okay that's fine if you think that good i'm interested in the fact that he said that the batman made him reminiscent of because to me batman felt more reminiscent of like 90s batman i think i could see yeah like my brain probably does go to 89 before it goes to 2008. yeah it just goes a little bit further back i think it might be the soundtrack as well though it was a lot more evocative of um of that time um and you know what hot take i didn't necessarily go to any other batman i was just like this is this is batman this is about this is the new batman yeah i was the same way i was like oh this is just its own thing over here feeling of all i had during the christopher nolan era yeah for me it was just like i because i rewatched all the batman films before watching this one and i just watched this one it was just like wow this one actually comes the closest to what i actually really want from a batman film out of all of them um because i i wasn't as impressed rewatching the live action ones uh animated ones i i still think uh you know they're still pretty pretty pretty nifty uh but uh yeah as far as live action goes uh uh this is the one that really hit it for me as far as my my batman mix goes spider-man no way home only wants to reference the previous movies to create a feeling of joy in the audience qualify qualify qualify i mean that is a form of a qualification to be like they only that means he's saying there are no references you could give that provide a sense of substance for the presence of these characters and i'd be like i was the rooftop scene of them talking to each other meant to be evoking a feeling of joy you know that's not meant to be a feeling of joy it's not going to be a feeling of joy when like uh when um when toby stops the blades like that's not joy you know yeah i feel like we're not giving the film enough credit in terms of the types of emotional responses it's trying to get out of you and regarding substance like immediately i would probably cite that i'd be like you have toby maguire sam raimi spider-man recanting the events of spider-man 1 now that he's much older and understands what he even figured out from that situation at the time yeah which is how is that not substantive and characterful like how how could it be anything else like again multiverse of madness like if you want example of flat cameos that are designed to do one thing and one thing only you have you know patrick stewart is professor x but not really anything meaningful beyond that well that's not even meaningful that's just a thing that they did that is might be cool yeah exactly i think i think the thing that would be worth pointing out is in the case of no way home even if you hadn't watched the raimi or the web like the tasm film i feel like you're going to get something out of this story they give you all the context you need to understand who these people are if you exactly let's actually pretend those films don't even exist and we watch this as it was and it's just like oh there's an actor called toby maguire an actor called andrew garfield came in to play alternate universe spider-mans it's like okay that's kind of interesting i guess um they describe their stories as they do i don't think this is because remember multiverse of madness doesn't have the context of the dark hold telling everybody that um she's going to destroy the world and they forget to remind people of that so it's just this missing component in the film there's nothing in no way home that you need to have watched the other films for to understand why a certain thing happens they provide it all in the film you just benefit i would argue there's more flash if you watch the films first yeah like um [Music] like i i actually do know people who uh no way home was their first spider-man film and they still thought it was um pretty fantastic um so it shows that they did do something pretty right with it if someone can go in without much context and still get something out of it it reminds me of god watch when 2018 where if you haven't played a god of war game before you still get everything you need yeah which is i think uh yeah but but if you play them as like good god is it even better because uh it makes all the sense in the world yeah also i like the contrast between these these three like how i agree with one of them and then the other two were just like oh [Music] this is just kidding boba fett is all for true star restored magic no no no and then was doc ruined i guess that's a question yeah so yeah the answer is no the fact that you would need to ask it though no no franchises can only reference themselves now a point the matrix resurrection is made fun of it's funny you say franchise is going to reference themselves because technically they were different do you count like like rainy spider-man versus mcu spider-man i guess you'd say they're the spider-man franchise and therefore the same one but like it feels like we're kind of are we gonna pretend like batman 99 and the dark knight are like the same franchise yeah it's like come on i guess they are the same broad batman franchise but like surely we're not gonna be doing that and then you realize wait a minute what's wrong with that though it's surely about execution yeah rightfully so the batman looks to seven the same way the dark knight looked to heat it features clear story and visual comparisons to other great movies but it is something else all its own is the culmination of i don't i don't disagree with that we're all right so far i have imagining that he's gonna be like what he says about batman will be pretty agreeable what he says about spiderman a seasoned wire director in matt reeves who has previously delivered the horror action that proves he's right for the knights the batman shows what has been missing from big budget movie making has seen in spider-man no way home specifically the video that's going to be is if it's just going to be cinematography and visual effects i'm going to be a little bit i don't know disappointed i'm kind of tired of this discussion because i i don't i feel like it's actually kind of it's it's kind of funny right it's like the conversation around cinematography is often presented as like the more nuanced deep thing and of course cinematography is an important part of filmmaking absolutely uh there is writing as well though like that's like the core of this it feels like everybody's like well we've talked about the writing and you're like what do you mean it's like i said i liked it go back go back go back flip them flip them like i hope that the crux of this video isn't something like oh when andrew garfield caught mj it looked a bit jank because the landing was too fast which is like yeah i agree but it's like is that really like what does that take away from like the core of the film like i don't know it's not an awful movie but it doesn't go the extra mile to really deliver a gorgeous and thrilling experience like it could have oh great gorgeous and thrilling i mean some of it was gorgeous i don't know yeah like it wasn't all jank they're just jank parts of it you know and i i experienced some thrill i really did sorry yeah some of them thrills frasier's cinematography is impeccable i can't believe he is delivered to us june and the batman across 2021 and 2022 respectively this is some bill pope matrix sequel spider-man 2 energy the guy has always been crushing it okay so i'm gonna sequel i'm gonna say well i mean a lot of people say the cinematography and revolutions as well it's still good it's just the writing in this matrix equals sort of garbage um which is probably fair i need to rewatch them to confirm i need to as well yeah but i will say a little bit annoying everybody says hey batman a good cinematography spider-man does not and then you're like can you elaborate and they're like no i will not the point is i guess it's interesting to do the the just have a scene and break down each like why each shot was used and what it achieves talk about composition please yeah you know sometimes interesting stuff this will come out after we've talked about it so it's all good but um oh [ __ ] no actually this is not a spoiler it's fine everything everywhere all at once um i'm already going through it right to take notes ready for the efap and stuff um the first time we see uh it begins with the list for the main woman and then and the husband comes up when we see him walk up to her he's facing away from the audience you can actually see his face and his expression because there's a mirror in the background that he lines up with perfectly when he stands where he is so that's like oh that's a really [ __ ] clever way to organize that shot um and you can see when he does a thing that he's smiling and then she's like stop [ __ ] around like it's there's this reason to wipe things are placed where they are and i really enjoy watching people point out stuff that i didn't even notice it's like did you notice that this uh this item is placed here and it's aiming like an arrow at this person and later on they get shot through their head by an arrow and you're like oh that's a nice bit of foreshadowing in um the departed every character whenever they enter a scene that's like prior to their death there is a there is an x on the wall behind them um there's there's stuff like that just interesting things to note about what the visual is telling you why the things are put in the places they are one of the ones i've said before is um and i think i would have shown at least friend rags the scene but when um tywin goes to speak to uh joffrey joffrey's on a throne at the top of stairs like a staircase when tywin speaks to him from the bottom of it they frame fires in the front and back the the fire next to tywin is is a bigger size than than than joffrey's even though he's above him and on a throne the implication of course being that tywin is it has so much more presence than joffrey does even if he's on a throne there's all these kinds of things you can talk about with how they composite a shot that i think is really cool and he he mentions lighting the lighting's super important talk about it show me it i'm more than willing to be like yeah man the batman does [ __ ] great with loads of these shots and i'm glad you pointed out instead of just appealing to what everyone has understood to be true batman looked good spider-man looked bad moving on didn't look bad though this thing it didn't look bad there's lots of really cool shots in it and by the way i'm pretty i would even go as far as saying pretty bad at uh doing cinematography discussions but i feel like all the basic things i could line out about a thing are still more than you typically get in video essays i'd say some probably yeah it seems that way because like they're a cinematography experts like dude you guys should make some videos do it look at the cinematography of killing them softly from 10 years ago and you'll see that frasier is a seasoned anamorphic master just look at this filth i think sometimes it's hard for people to watch a movie like no way home and see what they're like uh i wanted a nitpick i'd be like do you like it because it's frasier like a season just look at this like what is it about this shot that you think is worth praising i'm not saying that you shouldn't i just talk about it you know give me something yeah this is why i did this if spider-man was shooting his web in the rain and we got a slow-mo of that coming out of his wrist would that be similarly praised you could even maybe have the web form into a hand as it goes to grab someone yeah like it's reaching for someone yeah yeah very that's no really sounds really artistic that's yeah it's a lot of cinematography there that i think we can all appreciate i'm like you know but this shot you can i can i can even break down that this complies really nicely with the rule of thirds um as far as the cinematography goes yeah um but it's uh it's it's a big problem with video essays where they will say things that they believe to be self-evident but they won't break down the whys for the people who perhaps are a bit confused about why or perhaps maybe agree but want to know to know why one looks better than the other um i think that's yeah a lot of people need to work on i think i'm not even trying to be mean when i say this but i think a lot of videos are made to appeal more to a reaffirmation they're like uh this video will be designed for people who kind of agree with the sentiment already so i'm just going to provide the simple version of the argument without any detail i mean while i feel like we aren't we at efab much more invested in convincing and persuading um we find that more substantive i suppose yes like we've said like i don't make black widow a black widow video specifically because i just want to appeal to the people who didn't like it i'm like no no if you loved the film i would actually like to know if the video can convince you of how it's not quite as well made as you may have thought at least in its script um i'm just it's looking to go further than that that's usually why i stick to writing because ultimately it's like why don't you talk more about cinematography and i'd be like you know what if i were more invested in cinematography i probably would but there are still films where i can't resist talking about how like some of the shots are so meaningful um but this is you know it's like this this shot i think is satisfying to all of us but it'd be like we talked about why yeah filth i think sometimes it's hard for you to watch a movie like no way home and see why it's so flat and so uninteresting to look at but this is already unfair because they're really interesting shots in no way home and you're just going to avoid them seemingly yeah i was never uninterested with how it looked when i watched it uh i don't know no i i remember the one where strange pushes him out of his body and then he had like the little things over his head where he has like the spidey sense guns and stuff like that like that's what about where he's crying in the rain that's kind of similar to the gunshot one crying is cringe we don't talk through one everybody crazy all right that's um i don't think you'll find many people against that but it would generally be that the majority was only serviceable i thought it looked awesome when you entered the multiverse the mirror dimension yeah yeah yeah i mean there are definitely shots that look jank like there's no getting around that there are certain visual effects shots are like really um as good looking as the batman yeah that's what i would conclude meanwhile the batman doesn't really have any drag shots neither does something like there's not a moment in dune where i go like like you know it's it's it's all really solid and yeah no way home doesn't have that accolade but to pretend that no way home is just ugly it's like huh okay i would resume that for films like army of the dead yeah yeah well we're actually kind of still it's like my go-to answer these days if someone would yeah what's the ugliest movie you know it's like army of the dead tell me the dead dude i've seen no one physically uncomfortable to watch she's so blurry hey man that film has an oscar that film has an oscar let it be well he needs to [ __ ] off why would you remind me of that yeah yeah did you know an oscar for it was like fan voted or something oh it's like it's probably bots like the other zack snyder [ __ ] yeah um well the thing is right with this um with the whole like oh this looks flat versus um you know this that looks great like i don't know i like rather than just saying something as being self-evident i think with marvel in particular i think it's a more interesting conversation to have that marvel is marvel's current um pipeline relies on the film coming together in post-production to the point where the people on set often times don't actually know what film they're making a lot of the time uh they don't know how it's going to end they don't know this that the other thing so they rely so how that reflects with the visuals is that you can't do the led screens for example that make that i think contribute to helping the batman look a lot better if only for a sake of lighting um like you can't do a lot of stuff that requires you to know what the film is gonna look like before you start shooting they need to do it on blue screens they need to do a lot of rotoscoping and you know when you combine that with time crunch that results in janky looking cgi less polished cinematography um i guess less meaningful choices production-wise and you know i think that that does relate to what you were saying earlier mauler which is um you know it is that mishmash of some stuff looks really great which might be the stuff that was you know they had that in the docket since um you know the early phases while there's a lot of stuff in there they were still figuring out even after initial principal photography um had wrapped so that might result in january i mean with no way home i think this has been pointed out that they were refining the film while it was in theaters they were improving or the visual effects that were patching it yeah uh day one patch for the well it was a week well maybe a week three patch i think for that one but yeah it's it's funny to think that that's a thing for filming i think that's a much more interesting conversation than oh just the surface level like this looks flat versus this looks dynamic kind of thing yeah i'm saying if you really want to make that argument can you at least detail it just a bit more just please you see a blockbuster like june or the batman it's easier to see what's missing there is no mood or overpowering feelings that can be derived from the way new york is depicted in no way home i disagree not only do i disagree but like what um what do we like what are we concluding there that like whenever there's a city involved in the story you need to have a unique feeling about that city like why is it sometimes sometimes it's just sunny outside i'm sorry yeah it might not be an important um yeah just sort of see oh this is where we are right now there we go i mean the colors especially gotham has like this unique look and basically everything i'm pretty sure like in marvel it's always been just almost gotham's really important to get right for a batman story because typically going to be about him looking at the city that's completely corrupted which is gonna have a unique look or at least you'd want it to yeah yeah and we talked about this uh on the forge from you and i with the under the red hood where you yeah just gotham like from a top view and you see like the gargoyles and then like all these skyscrapers and it's dark and it's like if you were to ask me how gotham looks like this is how gotham is going to look like if you ask me what city in the marvel universe looks like it's like i don't know which one are we talking about is it like a city on earth this is the city somewhere in space uh because in this case it's new york city but like i don't think it yeah like there's no problem with how it's portrayed i don't think no exactly because you don't have anything going on it's not like oh there's like an alien invasion going on right now we're just basically in normal city mode right now there's no invasion there's nothing happening just like this is where we are let's go to spandau yeah it's not it's not that kind of film um actually something that just occurred to me is that um yms is um well the first part because there's only one part at the moment is a lion king review does the whole breaking down things beyond the writing um much much better than a lot of video essays do because what he does is you know he actually he he basically goes into the guts of the of the movie file and he and he breaks down each track for example of the song oh yeah he talks about cinematography as well he'll go as far as saying like look at how the shadows work in this and then look at how it works in this this is supposed to imply that no matter what in all these scenes like scar often ends up in shadowed areas like comparison like [ __ ] i wouldn't even notice myself if i'm honest that's the kind of stuff i wish people would point out more when they're so like definitive right just give me because funnily enough you could even go as far as saying there is a shadow here and shadows are good i'd be like okay i won't reasonably like what yms would use where it's like it gives a reason for why the shadow being in the place that it is is substantive to the story that's what i really really want um instead of just saying but i mean it's pretty like oh yeah but it's got to go further than pretty right it's never worth building i just like looking at beyond the movies like oh this is here now what does this mean for everything else that came before this it's like i just keep noticing it when i go back to john wake too it's like god damn you're just destroying everything with everything you do it happens especially when you get the knowledge of next movies when you look back on things like oh this thing with this thing together makes no sense and destroys everything how did you fail so hard it's insane but people don't think about this like oh this is a cool looking thing and this is neat but i'm with them the yms review like i was thinking about the cinematographer how he breaks down the cinematography there as well and he um he um he he also he dresses a lot of interviews with john favreau for example um and how he was trying to justify the flat look of the uh of of the uh remake um and he doesn't just stop it like um original is vibrant remake is flat he goes your reasoning here is fundamentally flawed because your reasoning here is that um real in real life um the visuals that are seen in the lion king animated film can't exist meanwhile you go into the behind the scenes for that film most of the visuals from that film were taken from real life stills they took from africa and they were quite amazed by just how frequently they were able to get such stunning vistas um in africa um yeah and it it showed that and he was not only showing that it's not unrealistic to get this i mean but even if it wasn't like the focus on realism is such is so is completely counter-intuitive but it's not even as realistic as the filmmakers thought like there's there are dimensions to the criticism there that i really appreciate feelings that can be derived from the way new york is depicted in no way home the colors are flat and the green screen pick up shots stick out like a sore thumb the shadows are never dark enough to create real contrast and when the camera does do something interesting it feels like an experimental moment rather than a concerted effort to create cohesive visual language for the film it feels like an experiment rather than a cohesive language for the film i don't know i feel like it isn't an experiment and it's part of a cohesive narrative well yeah first of all i don't know why you couldn't have both uh and secondly do you really think there's nothing about the way he shot this scene particularly that was trying to accentuate this portion of the story which is escalation panic yeah yeah it's like we're in the city with them we're walking around as everyone's trying to make sense of what's happening yeah there's a word i really like it's called heterogeneity it's the opposite of uh homogeny which is to say um there is um uh there not everything is perfectly uniform and i think this can apply to cinematography as well where the style um is shaken up in order to emphasize the emotions or the feelings the tension all that stuff within a given moment um so i don't know to me this is reading like i don't know i don't i would like to maybe ask him but um does he want just a completely homogeneous style where there aren't peaks and valleys in intensity in um the way the camera is used because i i don't know i feel i feel like that would that would create a very that that does risk creating a more samey healing film and it it perhaps risks denying the impact of certain scenes if he uh wants certain aspects to be i quote unquote more can uh consistent or more common throughout the film like i don't i would like to probe the standard there at least a little bit yeah uh it and it feels more to me that he realized that there are going to be some scenes he may have to address because some things do really look good in this and so he's going to have to at least find a way to tuck him away in this argument so now he's opted for saying they just seem experimental and not a part of a cohesive vision whereas matt reeves persons for voyeuristic angles certainly has a touch of hitchcock into palmer evident in the batman but also his earlier work in let me in the 2010 horror adaptation of the swedish novel let the right one in reeves and dp greg frazier create some truly arresting work it is a really telling mix of voyeurism warm hues in a cold setting and a great use of light and shadow that proved these two were perfect for a trip to gotham city seriously for a movie in winter it's actually very warm with nice burning orange colors that clearly precede the work done on the batman see so the thought's not finished you've established we've got a cold setting with warm colors tell me why that's meaningful yeah because that's what i was i was waiting for like the um the explanation of like this is thematically relevant to this film because like i could probably even take a guess because i know this is a film about vampires or is it like a case of this is a vampire love story but you know vampires are you know they're cold you know they're dead and all that so there's a warmth within the coldness of you know like there's there's stuff you can pull from that but i don't i don't feel like he's he's he's addressed that within his own script i'm having to pull from it myself with my own pre-established knowledge of what the film is about someone else could have said the big problem with the cinematography and let the right one in is the fact that they fail to use accompanying lighting that matches the setting and it causes problems because as a viewer you associate a more warm and comfortable situation despite the fact that these characters are actually in a very uncomfortable situation or something like that and without seeing the film i wouldn't be able to i just be like okay that's an idea i get like what's the counter because i again i'd need to see the film to do it myself um so yeah like the it felt to me like he's noted that but it's just hasn't taken it to the conclusion i guess yeah it's incomplete very warm with nice burning orange colors that clearly precede the work done on the batman like the winter months we expect gotham to come across colder and more blue in tone but it works perfectly in both gotham is rainy and murky but the warmer tones make the city feel ready to blow but is that the meaning behind that choice of color for the batman at least is the more orangey in the winter months because it enhances the feeling that the city is ready to blow um i i guess that's his reasoning there um i know yeah i have no idea i'm being completely honest because i mean like um the explosion plan came out of nowhere for me anyway in the third act like flooding yeah you could say that it's um visual foreshadowing but in the script it's just um it does come out of nowhere um like yeah because because again like you know it comes down to what we what's often talked about here on on efab is that um you know the visuals um are often can only are often only as strong as the accompanying script so yes there might be visual foreshadowing but it's missing the um the textual connection connections earlier in the film to to render that visual choice um as meaningful as as it could be and and once again let's go back to the fact that um he's using this uh he you mentioned let me in um as a comparison but he he i feel like if he had completed the thought with the let me in and he had explained why the contrast between cold and heat and that film were um were relevant to that film he could have then further completed the thought with how he does something similar with the batman but at the moment i'm having to fill in a lot of gaps yeah myself what are you gonna say if we all just intuitively go up yeah that's a great reason for why uh why there's orange hues with this portion of the film because it relates to the explorer i'd be like is that really it is that all that you have to say on that it's just like it it's supposed to make you feel like we're um we're on the verge of destruction or something yeah i feel like there's like more you could draw from that yeah yeah protagonists have let me in owen spies on various characters throughout the movie when we watch people through someone's eyes it immediately brings their perspective of events to the forefront that's why this batman feels like the focus where other movies have perhaps seen him overshadowed by the villains wow i'm a forever as an example of that i mean jim carrey is pretty funny in it uh goofy but um i i guess i'm trying to think of how i even feel about that film in terms of like batman in it he's fine most people don't remember even played batman yeah but i remember uh i've watched batman forever relatively recently i remember there was a there's a lot of stuff in there that in a better film could have been very juicy to chew on i remember as far as batman was concerned in that everything feels very attuned to his understanding of the world and his reaction to events the voyeuristic camel work as he spies on celine or the mob or records every inch of a crime scene really helps to sell this many final shots in the batman movies are big and epic but this movie ends on an intense closely framed image of a heartbroken bat speeding away like the dark knight dude wait a minute outside of the schumacher ones what is does the tim burton ones have him running toward the screen as well um batman begins ends with him diving off the building but it's not towards camera it's kind of just he's just diving down and we fought the camera tracks him um i think i think that's how it ends unless i made that up in my head um how does and dark knight rises ends with hit with with uh john blake um the elevator going up in the bat cave um yeah and then yeah that's the schumacher thing i was gonna say it doesn't sound like a batman thing when you consider all the movies like what about dark knight rises how does that end oh well john like elevating oh sorry uh uh um well then what about batman returns ah i'm trying to remember how that one ended uh because um i think the last shot i remember in that film was just him driving away as bruce wayne um but i don't remember him going towards camera in that one uh and i don't i don't think he runs towards i think the last shot of the tim burton one [Music] it might have been the batwing against the moon but i can't actually remember for some reason the burton films are having trouble staying in my brain as far as yeah unfortunately i don't have the files on hand i'm not even sure why i think i've screwed them up or something but um i don't know this this doesn't feel as common as he's implying yeah like it's very schumacher that's the the whole running towards i'm not saying other superhero films haven't done it but like batman specifically they've been done i think with schumacher that's what i remembered as being um because he's implying like this batman focuses on his pov and we can see that in that it ends with just him on a road on his bike and i'm just like i mean that unusual um like it usually ends like the only one that ends not focusing on batman i think is rises and that's but even then the implication there thematically is that um is that you know this is the you know this is the new generation next generation batman so it's still technically i don't know i don't know um the batman movies are big and epic but this movie ends on an intense closely framed image of a heartbroken bat speeding away i also let the spider-man no way home off the hook in part because i knew it was a coveted shoot as boring as it is to hold key conversations in jail cells benedict knows what that's like it was of course necessary as a workaround to restrictions but now that we've seen the batman a film that was also shot predominantly during covid there really is no excuse ooh but funnily enough i was actually going to go further than him and say you know what just because something was shot during code that doesn't mean you then don't give it points down for having poopy visuals you can still do that you should be like yeah it may be a result of whatever happened but that is the reality of the shot however i'm saying this other film was shot during the pandemic therefore if it's better visually this film has no excuse like dude you have no idea what the difference in their restrictions were you have no idea what we're dealing with for the actors to shoot but to account for so many more actors you're just like well batman's better now and it's like oh an earlier release date which of course it's not like an excuse it's just but it explains a lot yeah um like i said i would rather just go further and say nobody gets any excuses we'll just talk about what their shots are and we'll say yeah almost better than the other we don't need to account for calls but if you're going to say that that's a reasonable argument and then say we don't have to because batman looks better and did stop implying they had the exact same problems to deal with just because it was both during covert times like it's gonna be much more complicated than that yeah whilst there might be one too many returning locations could the bat and the cat hold their meetings on a different roof there is certainly character to the city of gotham it rarely feels restricted by covered mandates because the cinematography works smarter making great use of the screen technology greg frazier works on with the mandalorian i feel like i'm gonna get clipped for this music it's quite loud this stuff is so much better than green screen because you can actually light the room uh you can do that with oh green screen with green screen um yeah the actual visuals against the screen you just don't have to worry it's all going to look this it's going to be cohesive it's funny because i'm kind of pushing his point further than he is i'm saying like they could have done better with some of the stuff he did in the way though also i'm not even sure how many of these stages are even available to use um it may well be that they just did not have access to it it was being used by other studios there aren't that many of these you know this is a new technology yeah what what was it called again sorry um i think i remember it's ilm made it it's uh i think it's called an led volume that's the very technical term so it's a lot of screens glued together basically it's called stagecraft that's like the it's uh yeah industrial light and magic it's really never heard of that it's awesome um people are awesome if you don't get the lighting right you'll still notice the [ __ ] out of it in terms of looking quite real um it's not i don't think it's as simple as you project the image and thus the lighting works you still need to have more of a hand in it than um it's it's complicated i think the main uh utility of the system is that you can make the changes to like the backgrounds and stuff in real time and then the lighting will sort of adjust accordingly um yeah a lot of work is done ahead of time rather than after the fact yeah um and i think one of the things that people miss with it is that you still got to do there's still limitations right so natural light like if you're in a natural environment it's actually it's not bright enough to recreate the sun for example so it will stand out as being artificial still um in those environments you've got to really um work to compensate for that um if you're in a more natural environment you've got to be careful to not lean into it as a crutch because there have been um i think there was an independent film that was created um with the technology to prove that hey you know even indies can take advantage of this to do like more lavish locations than they otherwise would have um otherwise in theory anyway and uh the issue a lot of people pointed out was that um there are certain elements that were missing because they go into a cave for exam for example and uh there's no like dust there's no um certain there's no um lighting elements you would expect within like a cave that has some natural sunlight pouring in um and even in the outdoor sequences it looks pretty flat because there wasn't any lighting besides the the screen there so it was it looked like it was it the color matched but the the intensity and the brightness didn't so there's still a lot of work that needs to uh you need to do with how the technology is at at the moment it will eventually improve obviously as we as it's iterated but there are still certain limitations you've got to account for um with it yeah the design of gotham city helps this as well utilizing british cities including liverpool and glasgow helps to capture the gothic feel as well as the animated series he could have done a fun joke that would be like utilizing the depressing cities of britain [Laughter] the arkham games it feels claustrophobic and grimy and lived in the way the city is designed and captured makes it so clear throughout the movie the hold that falcone and the mob have of course new york is a real place but that doesn't mean that production design couldn't have brought out more of its character i don't this wasn't actually see this is the thing i was actually pretty on board with him about gotham for the most part there but when he switches over to this and he's like they don't have that and this like yeah because no way home doesn't really regard new york city as as the batman regards gotham this is not the same thing yeah like as as strange as it is to say um if you ignore the the the fact that this is like multiverse um you know magic huge you know um things being pulled pulled in all directions cosmically um this is nowhere home is a very deeply personal character-driven story so it's not about like a large city it's not about um you don't really need to define that because it's about the people involved and that's and that's the important part of this yeah i don't think um new york city is as important to them when they were writing this in this one it may be in other films but uh really not about the state of the city it's about the state of peter parker also yeah even his multiversals alps it doesn't help that the script for no way home leaves little time for the inhabitants of the city to make their voices heard peter has a face time with jay jonah and by extension the city in which he explains the villains being here is his fault but we never get a sense of how the city views him past the first 30 minutes um i don't know that we know is that what this story is about though um because that's what the world yeah cause like it's not really relevant past that because the point change um in the first 30 minutes yet it is about how the city views him because it's what spurs him to make that choice but then once that happens his priorities change yeah like it's irrelevant what they think when we're dealing with the multiverse cracking apart yeah so in my head i was like yeah we get it in the first act because that's when it would have been relevant uh but we move on from that the second the things start to unravel like being like you know how do they feel about him at this point in the film it's just like i don't know that that matters that much at this point he's got bigger fish to fry yeah and the finale takes place away from civilian danger the obvious place for them to come into play in the background like it makes sense that you would want to be out of the way of civilians because you want to protect them yeah like they bait them intentionally over to a construction site for that purpose yeah it gives them lots of web opportunities as well as it being secluded and it's knowable like like i think they rely on the fact that they all know where this is exactly first appearance he used the green goblin from uh the raimi films um as an example but i think that's he's he's forgetting the context that goblin in that film was deciding where the conflict took place he was putting it in a place that was public that had spectacle where people would be in danger while if spider-man's choosing the location it's going to be the exact opposite he's going to make sure that no one no one is going to be in danger outside of the people who absolutely need to be in the batman's first appearance the civilian he saves begs him not to hurt him but by the end he transforms into a true hero saving the drowning citizens from riddler's real chain calm down mate true hero he was a true hero when he rescued that guy like why did you imply that that was something he wasn't his methods yeah the way he's going about things is changing that's the main thing he transformed into a true hero is such a weird way to phrase all of that um but also now we're at the point where it feels like i'm i'm telling you guys that you know uh the daredevil show is better than the hawkeye show and you're like oh why and i go well in daredevil they actually have hawker daredevil and punishers speak to each other about their differences in hawkeye hawkeye never speaks to like punisher about his his reasoning and his differences punish is not even in it it's kind of like okay really makes sense that's like this completely different goals yeah but by the end he transforms into a true hero saving the drowning citizens from riddler's real change it leads to one of the best shots in the movie that perfectly captures the hopeful side to the character and proves he's more than just abject darkness i thought most of the action i mean it's worthwhile just pointing out right a light coming from him and everyone is following him he is a leader and an inspiration he is a beacon of heart yeah he's there in the dark i just love people to talk about cinematography more and talk about how it relates to the story in no way home was pretty bad sure there was some decent hand sorry what did he say most of the action in nowhere home was pretty bad oh was it i disagreed i disagree yeah i thought was fine sure there was some decent hand stuff between holland and dafoe in both the apartments there's two of the the bigger action scenes yeah those are good if we had how many actresses do we have in total it's probably like probably like four or five i was gonna include i guess the sandman electro initial one as well yeah i'd include that so oh it's probably like six or yeah five or six um i'm trying to think of i think they scored pretty high a lot of them we were pretty happy with all of them in terms of consistency yeah they're not bad and at the end decent choreography that packs a wallop in the edit i can tell what's going on groovy really but in terms of the rest of it i'm not so sure give me reasons or i'll kill you oh no in particular the finale takes place on a dimly lit piece of scaffolding no one really throws many punches and there isn't a sense of jeopardy that is comparable to green goblin dock or even the vulture man like the there's no jeopardy when the bomb gets into the magic yeah when they get in the zap there's no jeopardy in like the fight itself with green goblin yeah i don't know i almost shot my pants a couple of times during that final fight as far as you know there was jeopardy in the fight with green goblin in the apartment he was getting smashed he was getting yeah destroyed yeah gotta disagree on that one in particular the finale takes place on a dim as we're saying dimly lit i assume the problem with dimly lit is we can't tell what's happening but i could tell so yeah if anything it's got better lighting than it really should have yeah lit piece of scaffolding no one really throws many punches and there isn't a sense i don't know what to say about the doesn't throw many punches their goal isn't to actually punch and kill these people even though they definitely throw punches it's just yeah you throw punches at sand man i feel like that ain't going to do much punches electro he'll just go intangible they try to punch him and it doesn't work the only one they can punch really is lizard and they do they do yeah their plan is to get all the things they prepare to they're trying to apply the cures that's their goals yeah exactly to save them they're not trying to fight them well the jeopardy examples in the videos is like straight up 1v1 fights yeah it's comparable to green goblin dock or even the vulture by themselves even the vulture the implication that it's not on the same level as those other ones that's the thing it's not rainy so even non-rainy things are able to do some good stuff sometimes even though that one is super intense those of an abandoned moment between tugboat and defoe just makes it even worse okay hang the [ __ ] on you have no idea what that scene is you don't know if that's good or not i don't know why they got rid of it i think it's just the potential is alluring you know yeah but like why would you conclude that it's a loss that it's out as opposed to they probably cut it for a reason like that's what i'm saying i think it's especially strange to conclude that after saying the defoe uh tom holland fights are the like the best ones and they're great like and then to be like wow what what a insane misogynist like maybe they knew what they were doing maybe the the the final cut for this thing was terrible i don't know the foe just makes it even worse how the [ __ ] would you show me something if i couldn't have it then they show us stuff that they cut all the time i like the clip would you show me if i can't have it i think this finale could have gone much harder we should have gotten more rousing musical moments more well-staged bouts between you know what i think the reverse i think that they really pushed it to the limit on uh their musical cues with references to amazing spider-man and rainy spider-man um yeah they were just what i would consider to be like all right you might want to relax because um you don't want to you don't want to ruin it by keep playing them like carrying on playing them yeah yeah like i've seen re-edits of like say the portal let them coming through the portals where they've like where people have shoved really overt references to the uh films and then i rewatched the original and i'm just like wait wait wait wait wait they do use the themes when they come through the portal they're just very subtle because it doesn't need to be overblown and that makes the later moments where you get the more um operatic um uh uh version of the themes much more impactful because you've got that contrast there and actually i've i've looked at a lot of these um soundtrack reactors and the only one that kind of stood out to me is something that could have been cool under the right circumstances is like the s like the orchestral 60s spider-man jingle playing when all three of them are doing things as if to say collectively this is spider-man rather than it being any one of their themes dominating but i feel like you would still need to do some extra steps with that musical cue um beforehand to make it meaningful if you haven't uh if you're not as familiar with spider-man uh so that was i think that was more cool on a meta level more than anything but i didn't think about that one more it's got to be a balance with your uh spectacle gotta be you can't just be going like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom look at toby yeah rub him against the camera yep between the spider-man and the sinister six five green goblin should have rocked andrew and toby [ __ ] just as much as holland's before that final beat down i know that that's a really common thing people like i want to see willem dafoe and toby doing things as well but she's like i'm sorry this movie is about tom hall and spider-man i think that is a fair choice that they made uh yeah was uh what was he saying that it didn't focus enough on the other two spiderman he's saying that um we could have had a lot of spectacle payoffs in no way home that we didn't get including but not limited to having willem dafoe rocking every spider-man [ __ ] instead of just tom hollands which is not even true he throws a [ __ ] bomb that hits all of them um but the fact is yeah like willem dafoe's green goblin is after tom holland's got a spider-man in this film like they yeah that's what they're doing like the idea that it's like yeah but we gotta have at least a look from the foe and and toby they're gonna be like oh hey man like i have i mean they could have done it but they didn't and i don't know that it makes it a worse film for not having that uh when we're fixing it yeah they do have really well the thing is they're not necessarily from the same world they could be from different ones in fact they're probably likely to be from different ones you know they would be wouldn't they because toby's died in the infinitude of the multiverse yeah so technically speaking they don't actually know each other at all um [Music] oh yeah i don't know because like because the implication is that um all the villains in this are variants of the original people who died right i think so at the very least it would make it uh cleaner writing-wise i think to say that because marvel time travel doesn't work with well it's not meant to work with the the past being able to affect the present so uh that's something i i kind of wish they addressed a little bit in the film actually is like because they there's kind of because they're acting because they they know that each villain is taken from a different point in the time stream um like just before they died but are any of the spider-man actually familiar why would they be familiar with the rules of time travel in the mcu because they're kind of acting as if this is not going to fundamentally alter the history i don't know i think i would have liked a little bit of a conversation about that um just from their point of view like what do they know about the implications of like the more cosmic implications like is are they going to create a paradox or something because obviously we as the viewer have experienced end game and loki and all that that kind of goes into the rules but the chara none of the characters in this film have had any first hand experience um with the time travel stuff so uh something interesting to think about at the very least oh man because there are definitely [ __ ] ups in this film um i was just thinking about how uh we were talking a little bit earlier back about different choices and opportunities you have and not taking them like end game did with a couple of the characters but i guess you can get to the point where there were many options for payoffs you can't have all of them mainly i guess for time constraints but also because you worry about say an endgame you did give drax that payoff of killing thanos like if we were in a writer's room i'd be like i'm not sure drax should be the one to kill him and someone goes yeah but drax has got this whole arc that relates to what thanos did to his family do you think it's suitable and it's like it is kinda the thing is him killing him means that iron man can't be the one that does it it also means that thor can't be the one to do it it also means that the hulk can't be the one to do it you know like whoever does it out of this lot means the others can't unless we find a way for them to all do it together which would be difficult not impossible um and so i guess what i'm saying is like certain payoffs get chosen in place of other potentials and i just think that they would have sacrificed um any interactions that were significant for the goblin with garfield or the goblin with uh maguire in favor of the goblin focusing on the protagonist of this film as a villain like it that lines up to me it doesn't seem like this this obvious missed opportunity yeah exactly it and um i think i think we also said it in the um stream like we would have happily like i i i know at least me and jay would have happily watched like a i don't know a three four hour cut of this film that goes into even more detail about everything it has more opportunities but you got to remember that this is you know this is we don't live this wasn't a streaming film that can be any length it wants this is a uh you know this is a film that had to be released into theaters um uh and you know um a comply to um certain expectations and all of that so they had to work within certain boundaries not to say that an extent i think out of every film in the mcu i would love more than anything i would love to see an extended cut of this but i think we also got a focus on the fact that they delivered what i think is like a pretty impressively functional product considering the various limitations that they were put under this i just checked this um to see which was longer between this and multiverse of madness this film no way home is longer by about 20 minutes but multiverse of madness felt like it was way longer it's dense dance movie green goblin should have rocked andrew and toby's [ __ ] just as much as holland's before that final beat down see i already think this is an erroneous assumption why should it be just as much they are not the focal points like why wouldn't we extend it out if you're you're that worried shouldn't he rock doctor strange's [ __ ] as much as the other three like why not and i'm assuming it's because you'd say well because he's spider-man and i'd be like yeah but he's the main character so why not just him yeah like um you've got to remember like the ingredients you have in this film there are so many different combinations that could be um really enticing um to go together but you know we can't just think about you know we can't just think about this scene for scene like we can't just think about what scenes have we lost we also have to think about what place do these scenes have within the narrative and uh does it have a plate what does it compromise within the narrative um yeah and you know that's on top of the obvious time restrictions they have to begin with will you imagine when they explode men were busy they were they were fighting other villains they were doing stuff imagine when the explosion goes left out goblin like drives in to strange himself and actually pulls him out of the fight and starts punching him or something and strange is kind of like delirious to be able to do any spells and then they have like a back and forth while they're kind of fighting about how strange is kind of at fault for all of this and the goblin is like thankful that he dragged him into this world so that he can cause so much chaos because this is this is more than he's had to uh had fun with in a while and strange has to come to terms with the fact that that's a reality and what does he have to say about someone could be like where was that payoff if you're like well that just not a choice they made storytelling-wise they could have but they didn't yeah like for me like if i'm thinking about payoffs or like at least moments that i i think i would have liked more of it's like because the the mark webb and raimi films are um quite unquote more grounded than the uh crazy mcu world that they end up in you know the i think i could have all i think i don't think i would have complained if there were even more scenes of them just reacting to just how ludicrous this reality is with magic and technology and stuff than there was in the film but of course they could they they thought the fact that they thought to include those reactions at all shows that they were on the right track and that they probably would have had more of an exploration of their individual reactions to this universe if there was time it's just there probably wasn't time they had to think about what they were focusing on on with this film within the uh the limitations that they had and you know i think we have to we have to focus we you know it is a it is an easy trap to fall into of criticizing a film for what you wish was in it rather than focusing on what the film was and it's not to say that it's not an interesting conversation to think about the what-ifs but um there's a difference between that and focusing on what the film does do and how well it does it and how well it comes together ignoring the the preconceptions about what could have happened andrew and toby [ __ ] just as much as holland's before that final beatdown everything is just so murky and hard to look at the action in the background no i i just don't know how many people actually found that to be the case i i wonder if this is just something that gets repeated and accepted as true showdown lizard climbing out of the thing it's just like look at how murky and hard to look at it as i be like first of all mickey i mean to a degree that's the intention he's climbing out of the darkness and water as a lizard like he's a bad guy as well right i think they're going for him yeah they're being hard to look at does he mean hard to understand does he mean you look at and go ew like army of the dead because i do not like feel that way about it i think maybe what he's going for is um there could be higher contrast like he could stand out more from the background but um the thing is right i'm not a i think i had that issue myself with the film but i was i'm also partially colorblind so i'm wondering if my difficulty sometimes like lizard blends into a lot of backgrounds for me in this film but i'm wondering if you know it's one of those questions i ask is is that a is that an actual technical fault with the film or is it um more or is it more that my eyes like biologically are just not picking up the information correctly like i'm not actually sure one way or another um if i were to uh point out something that maybe could be improved here is that um he's directly in the center of frame which with the rule of thirds you kind of want it to be slightly off to the side kind of lining up with um the the crossing points of the the rule of thirds uh grid so that could create an illusion of flatness but um i'm not a cinematography expert either so i'm more just the thing i gotta say there's a reason or an argument for why they would want him in the center maybe to make it feel as though from this angle that lizard is coming for that whole building he's he's on his way you know like in reference to their sizes yeah it's a bit complicated with cinematography to say what is the correct or incorrect choice yeah i think that uh i completely agree what from from what i understand about cinnamon it's kind of like framing in a comic book you know it's kind of hard to say like what it's more so that you will often be presented with a lot of options um a lot of really good options and so you just need to think about what will best serve your story but again it's hard to say that something is like an objectively correct or incorrect framing choice that seems like something that would be incredibly difficult to do so murky and hard to look at the action in the batman is fantastic there's a subjectivity to the car uh it's interesting you chose the visual from smashing through the ceiling when there's all the glasses yeah there were better choices you could have made for fantastic race it gives us a very frenetic energy reeves and frasier choose to keep most of the action bolted to the cars or we see the chase from inside the vehicles this makes for a very personal and intense scene it's a batmobile chase that offers big bombastic thrills as good as in batman begins with a much more intimate distinctive style both chases are great and that's what i love about this film where other franchise fair can sometimes seek to be an inferior copy of its predecessor this movie adds to that cannon in a variety of glorious ways i guess i don't really disagree with again yeah i feel like that's how you feel when that's how you feel um no you know i'll stand him a little bit more i think that uh you can make like real arguments about how um having having a lot of the angles that the uh chasers captured from being like a camera that's affixed to the rear wheel of the car uh or like yeah like um something that's mounted on the back of the car so that you can see the engines rearing like there's a lot of really interesting choices that they make that really try to pull you in very close to the action rather than taking a big broad um sort of perspective and i think a lot of it makes it seem more claustrophobic than it might be if you are like it emphasizes the density of this highway and how many things that you have to account for how difficult it is to see a lot of things as like a lack of clarity but at the same time you know exactly where everybody is and what i'm highlighting is i'm disagreeing with like everything he's saying and then he has a whole section where i'm like i don't disagree and it's like so what does that mean it's like it means that when he props up the batman for some stuff i'm just like chill and then when he shits on the way home i'm like wait but the reasoning where did it go i guess it's kind of interesting though because like no way home does a similar thing with the web slinging when he's like with mj it has the fixed camera on him that gives you like that sense of speed so you know i would just make the same argument that they do have some interesting choices uh in terms of filmmaking well if you remember that was like cited by high top when talking about how there's nothing that brings the camera to life like that was actually something he had on screen it was a really interesting choice um that sort of pov like sometimes i just don't know what they're trying to tell me what they believe to be like frenetic camera or personal or intimate when i guess a viewer if he was breaking down shot by shot like if he if he just did a full breakdown of the chase sequence while like having the visuals to accompany the points he's making here it's kind of a bit confusing i'm not even asking for him to do that with all the shots just the ones that he wants to use as example right because there would have been some in the trailer because this would have been before it was out on hbo max yeah yeah that you there's there's shots in the trailer that emphasize that because yeah the really cool one was when um that you have it fixed on like one of the back wheels and then the car comes to a halt and then penguins car just goes tumbling it's a really cool framing now i have several different fantastic batmobile traces to enjoy all captured very differently i heard that the predominantly including the snyder one is a fantastic batmobile could it be considered a fantastic chase ignoring the character stuff in it i can't remember i don't know if schneider's visual style i'm always dubious well i just can't remember the chase itself if it was [ __ ] or not like mechanically because obviously i can't remember either a lot of it's hilarious i remember i can't i remember it because we were just laughing like all the people just getting squashed and stuff hilarious i just remember he managed to do a stealth move with the batmobile at one point i can't remember if that was [ __ ] or not use of interior vehicle shots calls to mind some of the greatest car chases to ever be put to screen the french connection bullet to live and die in la the former i have to imagine if you could yeah look if we could find some of the worst card chasers known to man there probably is a couple of shots that are interior well there's plenty there's plenty in bat woman oh yeah there you go direct inspiration these chasers are so good it's like it's got to be more than just we have interiors or close-ups of people when they're driving how come a batwoman chase sequence when it has like shots of her in the interior of the bat mobile how does that not work but stuff like the batman it does work what is what's the difference is it is it just the character or is it the character and what's you know it's expression being or what they've just gone past or even the amount of time like the editing where those shots are placed in reference to others maybe it's uh yeah it will be cool just to go over it i think what we're highlighting here is that um the interior shots are um it's not like they're only used for one reason or another because sometimes uh and this might i would suspect this is probably the case for bat woman is that uh uh that uh the reason you see a lot of interior shots in that show is because it is cheaper to show the interior of a vehicle than it is the exterior so it can be to create it can be purposeful to create a more meaningful um experience or alternatively it can be because they're cheap as [ __ ] and the less of the chase they show uh the better like um earlier seasons of star trek tng actually have um like a similar kind of thing where there's actually not a lot of exterior of the action it's just a lot of people reacting and uh doing like uh the the reacting to things hitting the ship if there is action at all because it is cheaper to show that than it is to show uh model shot uh having to put a vfx on that um and um as a result um uh unintentionally i think that actually creates i think the older star trek show is actually this is kind of a tangent but it kind of is relevant because we're talking about interiors and exteriors but it does the budgetary constraints actually create a more coherent and meaningful um action um set piece a lot of the time because the newer shows that have the ability to show those exteriors often often lack motivation and focus on when they should show the interiors and how they should show them because they because they have the budget to do so many flashy things at once they've kind of lost they're kind of just throwing everything at the wall and having no restraints i just it's just kind of fascinating how limitations can often inspire better creative choices sometimes then so uh when you're giving unlimited canvas i just decided to re-watch parts of the the chase uh the clip on youtube for the chase and the batman and i'm kind of something that would be really good to point out is how a lot of the the having a lot of the camera angles be i guess in a sense you know how like you would think of the camera as being somewhat omnipotent in that it can see a lot more than like any individual person would be able to capture like an entity within the world whereas in this case aside from a handful of shots that kind of exist to just make sure that you understand where they are so many of the shots are like fixed on the rear view camera or on the windshield or on like the rear tyres of the car and there's a lot of cool framing where it almost seems like the batmobile is like a like a pursuing monster kind of chasing after the penguin there's like a lot of really great choices that kind of ground this chase while still emphasizing a level of intensity and fear stemming from like the batman i don't know it's just like feels like that's the conversation about cinematography that's really cool is explaining how like the choices that they made with the filmmaking emphasize the story um being cool but yms goes over a lot in his lion king video he's talking about him yeah exactly it's relevant to the stories of the writing it's not just cool stuff well yeah because there's lots of stuff that's just cool um but it's the stuff that's cool and achieving something really interesting narratively that's that kind of stands out yeah and i think um something you highlighted frankie that i'm gonna bolster a little bit is um it's actually quite interesting when the director um when they have access to all the cgi in the world they're making the intentional decision to only place the camera where a camera could actually be placed yeah within the environment um it's one of those uh i remember briefly talked about it on the halo thing like reach the sim this the uh the style of cinematography and reach is like satellite imagery or um you know helmet cameras or um like cameras that are just placed on equipment there's very few like omniscient sort of shots in that in that game and a lot of it is to ground it in this military sort of theme it's it's about like um i guess that's the fun of the cinematography conversation is yeah why would you make these choices um because i think i think it's a lot easier to qualify that than it would be to say that this is like the best shot you could have had or the worst shot you could have had um yeah um sorry i think my cat just um she she just stepped on the uh she stepped on the arrows and i think that that put us in a different spot we're we're still really ours all good yeah um but i was actually gonna add um something interesting about like uh the gareth edwards um godzilla film um there's plenty of problems and criticisms i have with that film but something i think that's interesting about how that film was done is he very intentionally only put the he did the same thing he put the camera only where a real camera could be um and usually on ground level um so there isn't any floating there isn't i don't think you'll find much in the way of floating cameras in that film if you go through it and as a result the monsters do look much bigger they do you do get the sense of scale like when his tail swings around it's like you're on the ground and she's like holy [ __ ] this is huge monster here what the hell um and at the same time he doesn't do the michael bay thing where the action becomes really incoherent with a lot of shaky cam he still keeps the camera still for a lot of it but um he keeps it um he keeps the shot focused but he it's the position of the camera um within the world that really sells the illusion i think that's very it's very fascinating to break that down you've now just you've kind of got me thinking now again about it's kind of funny because this is a comparison between batman and no way home but i mean probably worthwhile to just like compare it to other spider-man films you think about how in the rainy films whenever there's the web slinging it's often like really majestic and because of these wide angles like minimal cuts these really big sweeping shots that kind of emphasize the um yeah like i guess the majesty of spider-man and then in the tarzan films it was a lot tighter and the faster moving it was much more intimate in terms of framing the web slinging yeah and then there were 100 had some cool shots that were again like fixed pov kind of angles um and then no way home even you know and then far from home had with mj those um like fish islands or whatever it is they're the ones that have like a lot of uh emotion in the background i don't know yeah i just want to have the conversation rather than just say that's a cool shot and that's not you know yeah i think it's very worthwhile um i find it fascinating how raymie is a very style like his style is probably the most like a comic book while um you know there's um the tasm films i think probably their great strength is the cinematography in in but it's a much more grounded approach to it like books and those in terms of our poses and things yeah yeah i think so there's a lot so much to break down and i feel like the the most we've kind of got uh i don't know i don't know if we're all in agreement on this but um i think phil with this video um the most we're getting out of it is the conversation is us filling in the gaps for what could be talked about with these various scenes uh i feel like the video if you've got more than 11 minutes you know to talk about this subject please these chasers are so good because they have such a clear point of view to live and dine like consistently throws because they have such a clear point of view i mean the best i can do is like um go with what i think he means by that but like even then i'm just like that's you should do better than that surely for your video right you should you should have more yeah like explain what you mean can we have a situation where the point of view is clear but it's also badly done could that this happen yeah i'm sure that it's got to be yeah like oh this scene has a clear point of view but it's like kind of like what am i supposed to be looking at is it supposed to be representing anything i can't really see what you're trying yeah it's like uh i don't i feel like in his mind he knows exactly what he's referring to but it doesn't communicate properly to people who don't already know what he means yeah it's kind of it's hinging it also hinges on like i think you kind of highlighted their eggs um it's hinging on the idea that there is just one element within cinematography or within um filmmaking that will make or break a scene when really there's a lot of different factors like there can be a very clearly defined pov but you know what you're saying is for chases like you it's just a clearly defined point of view for a chase scene it's like that's that's your component it's like really i feel like it's got to be a lot more than that yeah like you got to have the well for one thing it's got to be the coherent narrative like sure surely um and then you've got to we got to be able to see what's actually like if if the pov is the guy like say the the clearly defined pov is the guy in the trunk and so it's just a black screen the whole time that would technically be a well-defined pov but you're not going to really see much well the funny thing is you could make that i'm not going to say good well i'm trying to think there are um i think it might be bad boys is a movie where you get a pov of a guy in trunk for a while in the middle of a car chase because they put him in the back to capture him and then they get involved in a car chase and they forget he's in there like they do often have like put moments where it's just him and his pov which is getting bashed around in a trunk yeah i guess what i'm trying to highlight is yeah you're right like not only is that something that you think would be bad but i guess it's always gonna be about execution and there's just so many things to say yeah like if someone is doing their job really well i can imagine it could be like quite compelling to be to see the chase scene without seeing the chase scene to have a lot of what's happening be because that's a good that's kind of an interesting filmmaking challenge right there is um okay we are we can't actually show what's happening but we can shake the camera around within this confined area we can put sound effects in um that that can imply what's happening and we can show um in an individual character's fear and uh frustration within the scene um and that could be quite interesting or it could just be like an incoherent black screen mess um like there it is there are so many things that would be dependent on and it's the pov is more just i don't it's it's starting to feel more like a starting point than the be-all end-all like that's how you define where your focus goes but how you use that focus is ultimately um going to make or break the scene i think it won't be funny because it's just my mind was kind of going with it on that being tracked wrapped in a like imagine you get like a pov shot with their head is like filling the screen almost but you can make out that they're in the trunk throughout excess some like emergency light in there or something whatever and like they almost think it's calming down in terms of they've been bounced around a bit but then it's the moment where a car like goes over a ramp or something so they float a little bit with the car and like realize what's happening and then they're just like oh because they're about to land sort of thing yeah and like a lame filmmaker would put in like a line from someone in the front seat like oh look out for that ramp while like a really good filmmaker would just leave the implication of what happened with the visual allow the orders to figure it out interview to live and die in l.a consistently throws more and more trouble at the car and we track every reaction every fear every [ __ ] moment from within the car throughout the chase and the batman that's something like saying pov is is always consistent being it's the the man in the car regarding all the dangers that are happening okay we very much get into the mind of the rageful determined bat and the poor penguin who is terrified and weighing over his head the brief moment where he thinks he's finally dusted the bat is memorable because we feel his relief so wholeheartedly it's frankly hilarious to see his face drop straight after oh man he's dead yeah he has default on that's what oh okay yeah okay and the sound design my word as batman walks across a crime scene or emerges out of the shadows the sound design for his suit is immaculate the metal clanks you can even hear the squeaks of the leather and possibly black rubber everything has such a great tactile nature the burst of his graph that seemed like an odd thing like because he started to say black but then he cut himself off to have her also say black so like the first part of black just got like repeated it seems odd yeah well speaking of execution there are some jokes and gags that can work very well in concept but then you've got to actually edit it in a way that hits and sometimes you've got to spend a lot of time just you know just moving the clip over by like milliseconds or even less uh just to get the exact right timing for a gag like that and uh i don't think that uh there was yeah i think this might have i could have been synced a little bit better sure yeah apple guns is a taxi driver out of his wrists the nuts and bolts that shift from the vibrations of the terminals above the bat cave in particular the metallic sounds that only sell you on the body armor he frequently makes use of but when his entrances and walks are framed like that of a cowboy the sound design accentuates that everything feels like it has this care and craft behind it are we willing to accept that yeah i think that's yeah yeah they're all very accurate very uh maybe i shouldn't even say accurate they all uh sound very uh suitable and they they have uh the weight of everything that's happening yeah and uh even if we talk about costume design as well like his boots like we're going for the western example is boots like they both have the shape of like an old west cowboy for the shots that it needs to but without being distracting and looking out of place at the same time they look tactical um from certain angles but the shape allows for those old west sort of shots which i think is um quite good all right no way that's a long clip um yeah i gotta be careful but i don't know if he's highlighting this in contrast for bad sound design is that what he's saying i think that's what's he yeah i assume so because he just got done praising the batman sound design so it's like yeah i'm gonna need you to explain this to me have you noticed how most blockbusters now can't ever get their characters to shut up we seldom let the action speak for itself someone has to crack wise or deliver a piece of the plot to keep they really want to help him that's the thing even though they're not helping they they want to help them man yeah like they're panicking they want him to live what else can you say about that yeah [Music] yeah like the there's there's obviously a version of that scene that has less dialogue that that could work but that's not the choice they chose uh that they chose to make i'm not sure that works as a criticism on its own like there isn't uh the idea i think is to evoke a bit of a laugh out of the audience because the fact that it's such a bizarre situation you've got two of your best friends on your chest trying to guide you on where to run when you're spider-man like you you know what you're doing obviously why wouldn't they though because they are your friends they just want to make sure you make it you know i mean yeah there's another certain situation but like why would you why is that a problem i don't think that's a problem [Music] yeah like he's gotta he's gotta really qualify this one to because get yeah he's almost like isn't it a problem in mcu movies that they're doing this and it's like actually yes but i don't know you're gonna need to give me examples for the no way home ones in fact i would give you one in the when they were all very despondent after having been rejected by harvard and then uh flash just burst in is like i got accepted it's like oh that's yeah i guess they wanted us to laugh but i think this moment would have been fine to just breathe in the sad part yeah yeah flash thompson is probably the go-to just yeah in general for this film so give me some references that are good because that one wasn't the batman was a breath of fresh air in terms of this rather than seeing a flashback to the wayne's murder bruce locks eyes of another child who's experienced the same trauma and nirvana's something in the way drops the story is told in the cut in this moment we learn yeah i really like that in in the batman i'm curious how this relates to no way home though you think we need to know about bruce's mental state his empathy and the pain that drives him michael jacquino's score rises as we see it flourish paired with the action a good score is only really as memorable as how well it was used in the movie toby and andrew spiders have some of the best themes and i can barely register a moment when they came into play or what well like so a couple of things first of all you couldn't register when they came into play come on really really come on what are you supposed to do with that i just feel like so do your ears like what instant work i also don't like how it's like yeah toby and andrew have some pretty great themes it's like man i i don't know what to tell you about like that the mc spider-man theme is pretty great and it gets reincorporated a lot the mcu spider-man seems awesome and i couldn't not recognize sam remy's spider-man theme coveted there not that it's his uh i'm just saying that it comes in those movies um what a what a strange thing to say yeah andrew spiders have some of the best themes and i can barely register a moment when they came into play sure they played them in subtle ways during one or two little moments but why didn't we ever get them in full okay so that's a different complaint i don't even think that this is a valid complaint in any way shape or form it's like of course we didn't get them in full that would be crazy why the [ __ ] would they play the entire theme for toby maguire's spider-man and tom holland like a sequence you know you think about because i remember i saw people like they should have played like the the toby spider-man one as they were swinging up to go for the battle it's like i don't know man that one's more majestic and the mc one's more high energy which feels apt and also he's the main character so it should be his theme that plays when they're all going just because you like this spider-man the most doesn't mean his theme should play that's not how it works and i mean i i i feel like it's no you know what i would just say it's like that was hype like when the music is ramping up as they're all getting ready to go fight the bad guys it was super high yes it was i'm just look i agree with him actually you know when the avengers teamed up why was he playing iron man's theme it should have had all of the characters themes playing simultaneously regardless it should have had all three of iron man's various themes just just playing all of them an annoying obsession that happened on youtube a little bit after oh yeah all the things that were said about how damn she doesn't repeat their themes that's the big problem people were like redoing the score and loads of scenes and i remember one of them being where i was like okay i'm out is when you know when iron man grabs his suit on the helicarrier after he's have just a bit of a fat with the avengers because loki's arrived and he's like you walk i think he separates from capcom in a different way walks into his room and you see the suit and then he presses a button and it lights up and goes dude like this is powering up it's like yeah someone just redid that scene and just played that throughout it's like if you just throw it in whenever we see iron man's suit that's just it's lame as [ __ ] it starts to get annoying what they do really well with the mcu spider-man theme is they've got like six or seven different variations for different tones that they're going for like they've got the high-energy version they've got like melancholy version they've got the sort of kind of like upbeat little you know like the chill rom-com one where it's like done they have so many different versions and it's kind of hard to imagine like how you could reach and it's probably because it was written with that in mind because it's so frequent it just keeps playing in the movie in all of the movies that he's in like it just keeps coming up because i've got so many different variations well thought out um aren't well thought out it's more that they have a it feels like they've got a much more specific context in which they're useful yeah i feel like they did the best job which is to incorporate those other themes where they felt most suitable not to have them [ __ ] avalanche into tom holland's movie yeah i think i think he kind of highlighted uh the issue with a lot of these fan editors when it comes to re-incorporating things because it's not even the idea of having the light motifs like be consistent across films is the problem is the fact that one the people who often edit these aren't thinking about where the most appropriate place for these things are in fact they're probably not even seeking other variations for it they're probably just all that they're really doing is they're ripping it like the the the prime version of those themes and then sticking them in places where they have no real place rather than one them making their own version which um could at least be interesting like just doing like an alternate soundtrack sort of thing um uh like if they had skills as a composer or two trying to find different variations online and then experimenting to see if there is a place for them in um the film and i think it does create this jarring um sound to it and a lot of the time they don't even bother to actually take out the sound they don't bother to actually play with the like 5.1 or 7.1 um sound and uh separate the channel so that they can insert new music they often either just mute the music the the the sound that's there entirely or they have the awkward moment where the original soundtrack is playing right under this new one that they've that they've glued onto it and it just there are so many things wrong with a lot of the the thing that the the the rescorings that um a lot of people do though there's sometimes like there's one or two that are okay so you know i i encourage experimentation but just be careful and uh you know wear a condom oh yes we're gonna say ringing oh i was just gonna say yeah the difficulty is that the music has scored for specific moments so trying to staple it into a different film yeah for a different moment it's like it's tough as an individual yeah for moments why didn't we ever get them in full wouldn't it make sense to get more of that in the final battle or we got about as much as we needed medley of all three themes that would have been awesome well you could do that but they didn't opt to do that that's just an option to have like them fly through all three of them in an action motif thing like you could have done that um but i don't see how it's better yeah like i've heard mashups of the three themes that are kind of cool but that doesn't mean that that's the option that needs to play in much the same way that it would have been cool if they could have gotten they could have gotten a reprise of that orchestral spider-man 60s theme from the homecoming marvel studios thing as like the group spider-man thing but again that's not the thing they needed to do that's just an option that they could have explored i would like to hear the explanation why what they did in home or no way home doesn't work oh you already said right he didn't really pick up the references didn't really hear him oh okay oh okay i guess i just all right then he's just deaf basically oh my god full wouldn't it make sense to get more of that in the final battle or a medley of all three themes that would have been awesome michael jacquino's can't fight city halloween or bat in the rafters part two or highway to the anger zone are all great tracks that perfectly complement the action and are given the time to really be heard if you think it's unfair to use no way home as a point of comparison consider that this movie made over a billion dollars at the box office as part of a well-oiled machine that has destroyed mid-budget movies what the hell does that have to do with anything yeah i don't get it do you think it's an unfair comparison this film made a lot of money and it's part of the studio that's destroyed bunch of movies the funny part is god i got problems that all the the ways when he named all the songs as though everyone here and everyone in the world knows them by names like dude nobody knows the [ __ ] bat track batman sound they're called bats i actually i actually do know those ones so when i said nobody it was already disproved by the fact that he knows it when i say no i don't i'm actually referring to a very low amount of people i know i'm just letting you know that i know which ones those are that's funny i just kind of chuckled at the track name highway to the anger zone i think that's really funny highway to the earth but then the second thought comes in of like well to be fair i don't even know the is there a name for spider-man's is there a name for uh the samurai spider-man ones like i don't know i don't even i've never probably had those but people know what the music is just by how they sound not necessarily the names that's kind of where i'm going with this just like it's kind of it becomes superfluous as part of the video it's only going to appeal to the people who because i'm sure there's plenty of the batman fans are probably like yeah i like a lot of the songs like do you know which ones he's talking about though and you'll be like lives yeah that one i it's another opportunity to play the a portion of it you know under the copyright restriction just play like even three seconds and then talk about why because he all he tells us is the songs are played long enough to be understood and heard and enjoyed uh and they match the scenes they're a part of as if to imply it's the opposite for spider-man yeah which is not true no and you'll you'd have to convince me that that's the case and that's the thing that's kind of why i started with saying like recognition is like you're gonna have to help us out because there's some of these songs where i'm just gonna be like is that when does that pl is that the car chase one what was the car chase one i don't even sure i remember fully i'd have to rewatch it and it's just like why not show me and play it and then say what's what it's doing and then say what nowhere home is not doing well because the yeah cause it's it's kind of awkward because everything that you raised is is not relevant it's like why didn't they use more of the songs for the other spider-man is not actually addressing whether or not the music that was used was appropriate yes which i think it was um it was too consider this movie made over a billion dollars at the box office as part of a well-oiled machine that has destroyed mid-budget movies all the detractors really want is some filmic elements to be used in a more creative and engaging way than they currently are matt reeves isn't pleased about the current landscape of theatrical releases either but knows that if superheroes are here to stay they'd better be damned goods why are you showing me stupid why the [ __ ] yeah i don't know yeah garbage movie um i also just about the point where i'm just like that really was a complete non-sequitur like you didn't even need to do it you could have just said if you're surprised as to why i'm comparing these two you shouldn't be they're both big budget superhero movies i'm just comparing them you know yeah but to be fair you just want to try and get us against i don't even know movie here did you want to try and emotionally appeal to see no way home is bad i think that's what it sort of comes across as oh well definitely that he's he's appealing to a common sentiment right now which is the the mcu's destroying cinema which is always funny because we are offered at the position of just like all right chill out like it's more your fault but it is some sort of like a harsh heart take and what i mean by that obviously is just that they are they are catering to the audience and what you're saying is the audience want more of x it's like clearly not like if if no way home is going to make way more money than the batman when you're saying that the batman is what people actually want like i'm not even the irony of course being that i think the the batman visually is is uh gorgeous and it's like i i prefer more things to be more uh gorgeous but at the same time i recognize that the general audiences there's a there's a lot more uh variables that come into why a movie is successful or not that go beyond like was there a visual style blah blah blah because to be fair what he's highlighted zack snyder was celebrated for his visual style a lot of the time how'd that turn out i think army of the dead has a good visual style there are people how many of you are just brain dude um yeah so conclusion being he wants to have this action that i think was it was going to be impossible for this to not enter the the limelight of you see no way home is a result of of the same system that's destroying destroying the mid-budget movie i just like just casually throwing that in i guess so but like why wouldn't that be an inevitability if uh if people really want to see bigger budget higher blah blah and they avoid um well people are avoiding investing in mid-budget stuff you know it's it's this whole conversation i think is super interesting to actually go through as to where the fault lies if someone makes something like no way home and loads of people are really entertained and engaged by it and then it's like yeah but it cost us and a theoretical set of really good movies that were mid-budget whatever just like yeah but for everything that happens every all these other things didn't and uh i just don't know how we can be so sure but that's a good enough reason to say that no way home deserves to be shadow over us it's it's an interesting predicament we find ourselves in i was wondering how long it would take me to find a tweet like this after just typing army of the dead into twitter the answer it took me about four tweets look at these shots two of which are one of which is just i hate uh you know one of them where she's looking at the light i'm like that's just a normal shot that's almost seems just incidental and the first one i'm almost like oh did you just notice that while you were filming out there in the desert the um oh the blurry one as well by the way like the reason i laugh is because the rest of the film is blurry but like i could see that shot being meaningful in that the person that's shooting you has become you know it could be meaningful story-wise like uh there's the thing there are shots from zack snyder that i like i'm just trying to highlight that he's a [ __ ] poopy times with his writing all right yeah yeah uh it felt like in this video that he needed to move into the topic of the mcu movies are ending up this way because they're like gross movies made by committee by all these decisions that are that are not creative and not giving fresh and breath there to creatives and all of all that stuff and just like that's the way you did it i guess just being like i'm comparing them for this reason because like these get compared all the time by everybody these two films we are matt reeves isn't pleased about the current landscape of theatrical releases either but knows that if superheroes are here to stay they better be damn good so whilst batman 12 is still batman 12 no matter how you title it there is at least a creative vision a satisfying mood action swords and well-drawn characters implying that nowhere home did not have those things well those things yeah yeah just seems a little harsh to me yeah if you want to hear my more in-depth thoughts on no way home then please check out my video review you might have some questions i don't think so who thinks stockholders there's a question still pause it's just a question [Music] no i'm saying i don't think he thinks that please check out my batman supercar on the channel it's my first video that's a pure super cut you know i love cutting action together and if you like it too then this will be right up your street or not but either way please give it a watch thank you batman yeah yeah that's batman the best one easily [Music] i kind of like the idea of a matt reeves mr freeze but they bring schwarzenegger back i was gonna say bring him back make him serious it would it'd just be so funny well there we are there we are i feel like you were mildly unfair to us to know my home yeah i feel like i know i missed a good part of it but jeez i do i was not at all approaching convinced by what i heard guys chuck tingle is one of his patrons is that the real chuck tingle i hope it is i hope it is too uh oh no yeah what i would say about his batman's actions was i wish there was more detail because i agree with a lot of the things he was saying it's just i i'd want i think yeah forge itself more time to uh to dive in deep it may well have just been that like could have just been a video on the batman alone just give yourself more time to delve into it could you probably have something interesting to say about the cinematography if you gave yourself like more time to dive into it really comes across as though uh he felt like he needs to make it a 10 to 11 minute video that needs to be the way it works or something like that i i yeah i guess it's just it's a shame because how can i donate so much you can say in that time yeah how can i simultaneously take a poo on no way home and not really elaborate on why oh my god the one of the people who worked on man of steel has tried to justify superman jumping over the uh that was from his thing and we can't talk about it because i'm saving it from the next medley ah excellent excellent come up it's pretty funny um so yeah um i mostly agree with his points i wish there was more detail for the batman stuff but on the no way home stuff it really felt like you just play into the crowd and don't really have your references straight and made up some stuff that you think kind of works but it doesn't yeah that's that both great well yeah uh the plan now actually is to just read one of our catch-up catch-ups backlogs uh they're one of the smaller-ish ones but it will make for a probably a complete epap experience to those listening however i believe you wish to abandon us yes yes i don't like you anymore wow that's fine but that's fair only you me actually the others are cool you're not a whale you don't know that damn it oh no i i got i got again the workings tomorrow so i gotta bounce well it's been fun sir the link yeah the channel is in the description what have you done recently and it has to be accurate to when this comes out whenever that would be uh spider-man all the ways home metals forge yes the fourth movie all the way home that's the seventh one oh [ __ ] wow that's a while since this was recorded huh yeah yeah yeah it wasn't as good as spider-man phones home but you know i think i think it's still got some merits well that's the one where we get he and et going on a big adventure right i think they didn't yeah didn't hold the frame enough in that one so oh yeah another classic the thing no way home is very easy to hate you okay grab the stuff you gotta say all the things everyone says yeah just and not explain yourself to me the first video didn't even do that she went in directions i never seen yeah that was some strange just not even getting the point of the film very odd yeah very strange i don't know probably just gonna be in metals forge every week some streams shrambletons and working on on on stuff in general that's that's that's about it very well thanks so much for joining us mel and i guess i'll see you next time i see you okay alrighty then i guess i will simply read out some some super chats all right so the first one anyone watching the johnny depp versus amber heard trial watch bits of it i'm waiting for the result do we know when the results coming i don't know they're still doing testimonies yeah they're on day 20 now how long was the written house one [Music] um i think it was shorter but um yeah well all right yeah um i mean presumably by the time this comes out there will be a verdict but i don't know uh in doctor strange e-fabs you mentioned they bring up spider-man as a joke so this movie takes place before no way home nope it's a little bit of a confusion a lot of people is the they've forgotten peter parker spider-man hasn't been forgotten he's a known entity in this universe they just they now remember all their interactions with him in such a way that doesn't reveal his identity yeah it's not mine the more you think about it yeah like they might remember he took off his mask but they don't remember who was under it yeah like that kind of thing all the memory changes to accommodate him not taking off the mask it's unclear yeah something like that uh bonus i'm skipping be fast because i want a seven from mcdonald's what's a seven it's not like a burger all right um animal of the day the austrians similar to humans they have special abilities to live in the mythical lands of australia a land of evil creatures you think that people from australia are called austrians [Laughter] fair enough i think that was a joke there was a joke someone made that if uh if if hitler came from australia instead of austria his plans for world domination wouldn't have made it past the local pub probably i agree that multiverse madness is the worst mcu movie but i would rather watch it instead of anything else in phase 4 except spider-man um i'm not sure how i would order it in terms of things i'm willing to watch before others i don't want to watch any of this that maybe spider-man yeah but i could see like just in f as far as what i would rather watch i could see doctor strange maybe ranking high just because of some of the interesting visuals and the shorter run time uh just because i've just found so much of phase four to be a a really just a slog to get through but i don't know it's so good it's so hard because i might also have recency bias with that one as well so who knows uh hey fringy why you ignore me on discord very rude smiley face i i don't know crude like that doesn't help me really ignoring them even now uh well i mean it's goga who sent it oh um okay uh look yeah like i'm not sure what to do with that i don't all right this is your response to bake i have no idea uh if you guys think about covering the halo show videos check out the channel installation zero zero he made a video on the show getting hate and i think you guys might like it long live the toxic brood now is that like it in an ironic or an ironic way i don't know well i heard that video was really bad and i saved it and he ended up deleting it but it was it was like why the show was getting unfair let me let me double check what it's called it is called why that we need to talk why the hate uh that's what the thumbnail says that says why the hate halo the series we need to talk it's 41 minutes okay and it was not uh reviewed well at all the the ratio was not good um has he said he like disagrees with the whole video at this point or i don't know um i don't know if he said anything okay uh wings quote of the day i make like 40 000 a year at most that's poverty level in most places in the world i checked online 40 40 000 a year one percenter my dude uh bonus i'm skipping b fast because i want a seven from mcd oh that's him saying that i understand now it's like a seven you know how like in in san andreas when uh big smoke's like i'll get a number nine two number six yeah the number seven little extra dip i guess because maybe people do orders with like numbers instead of just the meal um i need to write an essay that explains a community i am in and its importance for communication you guys are the closest thing i have to a non-superficial community it says i can ask the community for advice thoughts i guess i'm not clear on what you're saying so you need to write an essay presumably from school in some way about a community to explain it and its importance for communication you mean what like what you learn from that community about communication or how important communication is within the community yeah or how communities are influenced by communication in any case whatever you want because um yeah it says you can ask the community for advice i mean yeah you can talk to whoever you want that's totally fine yeah absolutely hopefully hopefully get the answer in time for the assignment yeah uh sword lady rambo i think your name was uh they will never know what you sacrificed wanda i will make the whole multiverse know what i sacrifice by sacrificing the multiverse to get what i want including your mother in another universe oh yeah don't tell her about that you might find it a bit awkward i just love that because she uses her own mother's death as a justification for wanda's actions and then it's almost this beautiful bell curve where where she just ends up becoming the very thing committing the very action that uh that was being used to justify her atrocities um invite t-sun young made a good vid on my face for the msu sucks even though you guys would agree i think it's a good discussion to be had uh sure could happen at some point yeah um so you watched everything everywhere all at once you know one thing at a time maybe not all of it but yeah we're getting through everything slowly real slow in fact i don't think we're gonna be able to watch everything by the time we uh we reach our endpoint what do you guys reckon yeah i don't think we will that might be tough apparently that attitude this movie's coming out like every day and i don't even watch a movie every day so you know what [ __ ] and that's not going to help you in terms of catching up on all the movies that have already existed yeah man they made they've been making them for like several years now i was like what how would like what how could someone possibly and yeah apparently it gets harder the the further along you go in terms of catching up um as for answering that question legitimately you will have had an entire effect all about it by now enjoy hey uh oh today is wednesday may 18th 2022. no it's not well no no it's not but in spirit yeah i suppose i hope obi-wan fights off the inquisitors by himself to retain dignity but i hope he loses a finger or two so he can't play guitar anymore oh no you want to do that the memories notable any universe with a human civilization would have to have breathable air so the real luck is that humans end up evolving and have civilization to the same level as our earth which is mad you talking about the multiverse well the multiverse they have different laws of physics per universe would they not so that's not necessarily the level of um luck in that they end up in places that are suitable for them is yeah if the nature of reality is that it couldn't be any other way in particular regards like uh mass attracting mass and just certain laws of physics then in every multiverse it would be that way not literally everything's possible only things that are possible will be able to happen infinitely in the multiverse wasn't that yeah autologous though if you said if that was the way it was always going to be then of course it can't change but what if it wasn't what if it is based on how the initial blast some like small variance to how it was done could change how certain laws of physics work maybe um i don't know if that's possible maybe it is but i don't it as far as we know i don't think that we have any reason to believe currently that a lot of aspects of the universe could be any other way or could have been any other way well so depending on whether that's an aspect of the nature of reality um then it wouldn't occur in a universe if it's not possible that's kind of what i'm getting at you would just write it so that is possible yeah you could write that to be possible sure um as someone who has the hearts for buff ladies the she-hulk trailer has me very upset yeah they didn't go with making their um big buff lady he's more blender i saw a tweet saying that apparently um she was going to be bigger but the studio kept saying make her thinner more cylinder so see how that works out i guess i don't know i think what gets me beyond the bad cgi is just her freakishly huge hands i just they look very disproportionate compared to the rest of her it's just a bit off-putting it's a struggle in general she's too human-like whereas at least hulk is like yeah it's a face but it's kind of not like a human face exactly the closer you get to it being a human face the harder it's going to be for like cgi to kind of like you can have rocket just walking around being rocket and it doesn't take you out of it because he's a talking raccoon it's hard to know what a talking raccoon ought to look like and how the cgi doesn't match what it looks like but we know what people's faces look like and how they move um yeah it's a combination of you're trying something that's incredibly difficult on a budget that's much lower across much more content it's like a perfect storm of these factors working against them they i feel like they should have just got a really big bump i actually disagree i've i've seen people say things like get a big buff woman or alternatively do like perspective things like with the hobbit i feel like both of those aren't great options for like a television show um not for a tv show or not well so the one with the perspective is like oh [ __ ] you have to like account for perspective over like how much content like hours and hours and hours much more than you would have to deal with for a film with a lot less money than anything yeah i can see why you wouldn't want to do perspective over the season but oh i guess are we really going to act like the the incredible hulk 70s tv show where they painted um was it lou ferrigno right where they painted him that's like better than cg hulk are we really going to pretend like that's better well i'm not talking about luffry i mean i if it's supposed to be a like a smaller version of a hulk where it's a woman is there a woman is there not a woman who's comparable to that uh but then you don't have the same actress so how do you what how do you gonna have to have to be that emerald what uh well what if what if you want the one actress because that kind of makes sense in terms of it's meant to be the same person ultimately what what options do you have at your disposal so she goes she goes back and forth between a normal person and well yeah it's just like bruce banner could they be different uh could they be played by different people you could if you wanted to but i mean isn't there a isn't there a logic to having it be the same actress i it's the same i mean it depends on the nature of the transformation right well if they're the same person which she hulk is she basically returns it's kind of like what smart [ __ ] smart is now like what hulk is now where it's the same person you're just bigger and green i think that you could i don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you undergo a pre like a transformation then you could have a different actress portray that aspect of that person you would need them to go through like several hours of makeup on a television show production timeline i mean they did that on star trek for like um dozens of extras um right every day i think downright common i would even push back that that's why would you even highlight that that's that's they do that all the time these days yeah i think it's unreasonable like i don't know i don't blame you for using cgi but i don't think it's unreasonable to maybe uh find well isn't it like zoe saldana goes through like five or six hours of makeup like to do gamora so you have to basically account for that for the main actress in the production every day that you need her in that well i guess what i'm saying is like does that comport with the television production timeline as well as actually just having a bcg and then doing all of it in post well the counter then would just be don't do cg unless you have the time to do it and they clearly didn't well that that's kind of like what i'm getting at is maybe this was just an idea that was doomed from the start like every factor that you have is working against you you don't have the money to give it well i guess is what i'm saying is it seems like you need a fully cg character on a television show timeline who looks pretty human-like feels like you've set up a lot of factors that work really against you compared to even what you've had to deal with before with hulk like i feel like hulk is an easier challenge because it's it's i feel like it's harder to get uncanny valley with hulk than it is with she-hulk and you have to account for it for a hell of a lot less screen time and you have more money i think you can work both ways you just have to give it the time and the budget that it requires was your position this whole time that there is no good way to do it um i don't know that there's any way that you could do it that would yield the result that everybody would be happy with um in much the same way you know in the way that everybody's kind of happy with the way that hulk is now i thought your argument against uh doing like the gamora style is just the fact that it would take time not that people will be unhappy with it i'm not sure how well that one was so it would be if you did it with paint you would need an actress who you would need the second actress then well i guess what i'm saying is like then even if you paint the person and you have the trade off of you're gonna have two people playing the same role when it may will make more sense to have one i don't think people will be unhappy with that yeah i think that'd be interesting i guess it's a question of like it i guess i'm curious if like if if this is if people would feel the same way with hulk if like you had bruce banner and then you had a really big muscular guy like again you do the incredible hulk thing and you have some i think it depends uh generally i think hulk's um transformation is generally just more of a change than she-hulk's is it would seem that way um yeah like look at treehouse design like it's it's basically just a very tall buff woman yeah and there's because i just googled and there's plenty of chicks here where if you imagine oh i don't know yeah and i and i think it'd be really interesting it could be a i think it'd be something you could market like two actresses playing different sides of the same character uh i guess you could i guess i just kind of don't see that ever happening with hulk so i guess i wonder why but she-hulk maybe um what if they did base the the look of hulk on a different actor who's got a bigger let's say chin and neck so that they can better approximate how that face might go instead of making it a mark ruffalo hulk looking like guy um is there an argument to be made that there's a level of continuity between like the facial structure kind of makes sense given that it's like a partial transformation i think one could argue the reverse that it's so animalistically out of bruce banner's actual like nature that it it feels like it helps you separate them out in terms of their um what they are to each other i guess the thing is is that that's something you could also achieve with cgi too yeah well so i never went against that the whole issue with the cgi is they don't have the time for them i think cgi presumably whatever it is yeah they don't have something um [Music] if it's time or money whatever yeah but like the you erase that problem then if you're dealing with uh not cgi or even cgi touch ups which wouldn't be so bad i don't think but yeah i don't think people would have trouble accepting funnily enough i think the dr jekyll mr hyde transformation in um uh in van helsing they don't look anything like each other which is fine and then in league of legends gentlemen i'm pretty sure jason fleming plays both versions but they look very [ __ ] different uh their faces because there's a lot of prosthetics yeah prosthetics yeah so yeah i don't think people would have that much trouble getting to like i guess um i guess i find it interesting because i think the whole time i was like it's obviously going to be a cg character like that was kind of my thought process with this like i think people were surprised i wasn't it was like it was obviously gonna they were gonna do this um whether or not that was gonna yield good results is another question i think it honestly seems like marvel's at the point where they're trying to see how much they can get away with in terms of like visual effects you know because like there's no getting around it no way home did have some jank shots so uh like cgi and so did multiverse so did our shongxi and black widow it's been like a pretty persistent problem this phase and maybe this was a bridge too far because it's such a focal point of the show yeah but whether or not that even changes anything you know who knows i doubt they're gonna delay it i bet you they're just going to truck full speed ahead they're not going to do the sonic thing because i don't even know what the compromise would be you know what is the compromise other than redoing the whole show um with a much larger less human looking character yeah because when i heard they were doing this i thought i didn't i i didn't think there would be no cgi i thought it would more be it would be a hybrid of different techniques depending on what was required um because you know i was thinking like they're not going to do like a full i think the only reason i didn't think they were going to do full cg is just because it is on television um even if it is like a more a higher budget disney plus thing because it's marvel and they just use a lot of cg so i think i just thought that that's true definitely a cg character and i guess yeah if i was going to guess i would also say cg because that's so prevalent now and just but i guess i guess the problem is you shoot the show and then you do it and maybe too late you realize ah damn like this just isn't gonna work you know yeah cause the thing about she-hulk she obviously has a superhero costume and all that which requires like the muscles to be there but a lot of from what i've seen of she-hulk is she's just in like a she's in you know um a lawyer outfit um just doing lawyers yeah yeah just she just happens to be green and gigantic while she does um but i mean if someone said that she was meant to be bigger and then they changed their mind then that might be one of the reasons why you go cg because you have a lot more control post-production for a character who isn't quite because like gamora is a regular person but green as opposed to she-hulk who is like bigger and more muscular and maybe there was a time when they wanted to push it to be more like hulk and then they changed their mind and so by doing cg you don't have to worry about kind of destroying everything um if you change your mind yeah it might be you know i think i mentioned the uh how marvel likes to just have everything come together in post-production and that might be yeah that's the stuff that's probably why they went that way because they just wanted to they wanted the freedom to change the look after the fact rather than but there's also the problem of um did you get people who know it's it's i can't remember whose video it was it pointed out that like the director remembers maybe a tweet that talked about how the director of dead man's chess like extensively researched visual effects stuff so that he could film davey jones in a condition that was really good for visual effects later now i don't know if anybody gives a [ __ ] anymore it's just like yeah put him in the costume and get him there they'll figure it out and so you don't take into a consideration lighting or all of these other factors that make it so clear that you've just kind of plopped a character onto a bunch of frames they're not integrated i don't know if they had the people with the talent and the time to do that you know maybe they didn't yeah you you bring up a good point there because they might not have had a lighting reference there like they might not have like the the reflected ball that you use that helps you figure out the lighting conditions yeah or even just painting like the person in the mocaps or at least painting them partially green to get a light reference for what the green skin looks like yeah yeah i think they did that with um portions of bill nye's face when he was uh baby jones yeah they put a little bit of black eye makeup i remember that from like the shots they they tried harder to integrate it so that it would be easier because it's that's all it is is making it easier for the visual effects people to do their job the harder you make it the less like the results are going to suffer um but i guess that's the problem is like marvel's production pipeline seemingly doesn't give a [ __ ] about like the post-production process very much and so you get left with a lot of [ __ ] results and coupled with their unwillingness to significantly delay any of these projects when it's known that like all these visual effects houses are backed up with so many projects that they're working on but i don't think marvel gives a [ __ ] because they can get away with it and they have not enough people raise enough of a you know contention to where they need to really worry about it yeah when they do they'll start changing but until then they will not well and maybe this is the one that i don't know though i don't think it will i think it'll come out and they'll just push ahead and it won't be a sonic the hedgehog situation um yeah yeah with marvel it feels like it's gonna have to be a death by a thousand cuts situation before they start making big changes where something's gonna might be the straw that breaks the camel's back but i don't think it's gonna be one monumental thing um because i think people have just developed an image of a tolerance well i guess it'll be interesting when um like avatar 2 comes out that trailer looked [ __ ] impressive with like a lot of the technology and so maybe you need avatar 2 to remind you of like no in 2022 this is like the best you can do right um whereas whereas people might still have standards that are almost stuck like five or six years ago or even regressing well like you don't realize what can actually be achieved technologically when you have somebody who's immersed in it but then again like elita looked really great that that film looked really great uh visually also done by the avatar team i believe well yeah it was james cameron was involved and he seems to be super immersed in all of these fields and technology meanwhile yeah i don't know marvel stuff is like nobody seems to care [Laughter] yeah because like james cameron like gonna remember the reason these films the these avatar sequels have taken so [ __ ] long is because he was just spending all that time trying to develop underwater mocap technology so that they could just do it underwater for real but then do the cg later um yeah to capture the footage so that it would look hyper realistic i don't know if marvel i don't know you you go from like iron man the only time that they've really done the r d is for thanos like they really started doing tests ahead of time that was the only time i think they've done or maybe i think the first iron man as well that reference like they had real suits that they used as reference for the lighting it's the reason why iron man looks great and a lot of the later iron man suits look like [ __ ] um yeah homecoming or they also had to do a lot of tests for homecoming so they could cg the homemade suit they had to do a test to prove that they could do something that was that simple as a cgi model i think um that the reason why it's probably getting so bad is that it used to be that you would have cg for like very specific parts you'd have one character or like a couple of environments that were really focused um now it's like the whole thing at like every place that you are has some visual effects [ __ ] in the background like you've got so much that has to be done that there's a lack of focus whereas in iron man 1 it's mostly the iron man suit that's getting all the time whereas an end game it's like what's the iron man suit it's professor hulk it's all of the backgrounds it's thanos it's time travel stuff because those suits were cg [ __ ] time travel suits and it shows they look really bad yeah such a reliance on cg i think there's all there's something to be said about the fact that the demand for cgi is increasing while the efficiency of being able to um pull off cgi is with obviously it is progressing as all technology does but the techno the technological progression the ease of use and the ease of implementation of cgi is not increasing at the same rate that the studios are demanding it so it's becoming very jank because of that as well like yeah it's um it was that life of pi that was on rhythm and hughes the company that made life of pi's visual effects and how it just talked about 10 years ago how like a lot of these visual effects companies compete by under bidding they'll they'll do it for a lower price on a more condensed timeline so it's just like persistent crunch and it means a lot of talent gets lost because a lot of people get burnt out and the reality is is that there are only like a handful of like major visual effects studios that have only so many people but like every [ __ ] film that comes out is like heavy you know 10 or 15 years ago not every film needed crazy [ __ ] visual effects now like every movie needs it and so it's way more work way less time less money as well and you're losing a lot of talent it's it might be a house of cards that like actually collapses like it may well be that there comes a point when like [ __ ] just doesn't get done because it's impossible um yeah so i'm glad like unreal are trying to like because their focus with unreal five wasn't just to make another game engine their focus is to make a more efficient way for people to not only do games but films and all of that without having to put in like all the strain and effort that a lot of people are having to do with vfx nowadays so i'm glad some companies are doing that because of this crunch [ __ ] well yeah because it's like unreal engine is building a whole bunch of stuff that works in the engine that is a lot easier to do rather than having to make everything individually all you know like frame by frame rotoscoping and all that stuff that takes ages it's um it's just it's a scary world out there you gotta wonder like these poor [ __ ] visual effects people who have to make 10 billion shots a year and then everybody on twitter is [ __ ] on the visual effects it's like it's not even really your fault like you do it the best you can there's only so much you can do yeah it's one of those situations where it's i think it's often good to clarify that the people being shot on are the executives that are demanding this ludicrous level of cgi rather than the poor you know underpaid underfed artist whoever yeah we know that the ppi is better than that you know that exists it's just exactly did you cheap out or is it too fast or you know that's where you generally will go first which is absolutely it's not the visual effects artist's fault that she-hulk looks weird it's marvel's fault for making a nine-episode [ __ ] television series with a cg made character that they probably had less than a year to turn around and way less money than they needed and probably really bad shooting conditions that made their job even harder so good luck visual effects people don't burn yourselves out too much we salute you um the subreddit called shitty movie details i quite like this one says in star wars the last jedi praetorian guards helmets have no eye holes making them look inhuman and menacing this also means they can't see [ __ ] and frequently run in random directions and attack nothing i can't believe it it explains so much yes but they'll look intimidating because they're sitting there just flailing you know what they would be really good at hunting vampires yeah you see the knife didn't actually disappear behind ray's back what happened is that he went to stab and then he dropped it because he just slightly misaimed and the arm was so clunky he couldn't pick it back up so he just kind of went with the movement the little clip that they posted with the post it's such a [ __ ] show everyone in the in the sequence is doing something dumb it's just like god it's hard to notice when you first see it though well it's going so fast it's time to pick up all the [ __ ] and you're trying to think about the story and characters and what's happening and then you've got all this madness and the shit's burning in the back and it's it's all just it's all just madness and you can't keep track of it all at once you it's like a lot of action scenes mm-hmm kind of part of the trick isn't it yeah just keep it going yeah when i was talking about it exactly yeah when this when action's happening uh when i was going through a lot of the mandalorian fight sequences and when we were watching the second season just the fights are all terrible every single one is awful and there's it's full of continuity errors and just ridiculous nonsense and nothing works in any of these fights and a lot of people swear that the combat is just so good when it's just fundamentally just broken and nonsensical well it's i would like to i would like for us to acknowledge good and bad choreography because there's a lot of artistry craft that goes into it well hey can you think of a film that had some pretty cool choreography in it recently yeah i can actually i guess it was i think i think it was everything and it was everywhere and all at once yeah and it sounds like a pretty good film i should probably like you know no it's terrible they take a look what's the last jedi instead yeah i've watched that that's another one of those like man you had so much money you like it really was no excuse for this you had access to the people who choreographed the other films and you had people who would uh you had the money to pay for the best people like it was really no problem i'm pretty sure it's ryan johnson's fault he said he made them do it all in one big take and recorded it all and then just chopped pieces around that he wanted and it's like bro i understand you could be more thoughtful about what your actions the only reason that you should only do the one take is if you're gonna actually portray it in a wanna like if you're only gonna do one take then why chop it all up in that case do multiple takes you can [ __ ] erase them yeah just remember like hayden christensen and uh you and mcgregor um they i think they rehearsed their episode uh three thing uh i might be exaggerating this in my head but i feel like they said they were rehearsing for about nine months before the actual thing and there's footage of like them going at it and they're going hardcore and hate him yeah and i think hayden would go no that's not good enough we got to tighten this even more and they were just constantly pushing each other to do it better and better and they got to the point where they didn't need to speed up anything they didn't need to really alter the speed of the fight in in post because they had just nailed they had nailed the choreography sure that ewan mcgregor said that for phantom menace they actually had to slow it down because it looked too unbelievable how fast they were going with the players oh him and darth maul it's it's pretty tight in terms of how [ __ ] yeah close they get um and you know fun fact i don't know if you guys know this uh darth maul basically doesn't blink throughout all the time we see him except three instances one where his lightsaber is cut in half two when uh kenobi's coming down on him and slices him and then three as he's falling into the pit excellent i was like i had no [ __ ] clue that was a thing really cool just like god damn dude he's up there in that list of characters where we we get so little screen time of him but he just has this presence and you want to see more of them and he's become quite iconic oh you want to see oh you can watch star wars the clone wars he gets a lot of that dude he's gonna show up in something else at some point once they figure out who they yeah they used to be solo but they're still they still want to figure out they're gonna do something of course they will i thought it looked like melted cheese in solo like they just they tried to make him look older but i was just like why does he he looks like he's like melted cheese he's got the texture of melted cheese uh hey fringy i really like the endgame video i really enjoyed the movie when i watched it and i never even registered the flaws in the writing oh i'm glad you enjoyed the video and i mean as for as for like the i mean i'm pretty sure everybody really i really liked that movie when i first saw it um there's a lot of things no i think it's i don't like it anymore but yeah i mean it's it's pretty clear to see how it's a film that would appeal to a lot of people but i can also see now that it seems like the appeal is diminishing um um you should play the delightfully charming aussie game called webbed you play as a little spider on a quest to rescue a boyfriend by uniting all of the critters of the bush against an evil bowerbird that sounds funny um oh i see yeah there it is it's uh webb the story of a little happy spider on an adventure to save a boyfriend from a big mean bowel bird that's cool that's got overwhelmingly positive reviews as well um yeah maybe check it out doctor strange multiverse madness is a how it should have ended gold mine wrong universe finished incursion finished remember sling rings finished actual infinity finished uh strange turns gay finished well uh i imagine that they yeah they're gonna have to choose what jokes they want to make because they don't tend to do it for as many as they can but it could be a long video episode eight is a disaster applies to so many things we would have said it at the time about halo but you're right it does apply to so many things so many ringing we must appeal to the masses for space travel with the prospect of alien boobers it's the only way we can see space travel in our lifetime probably would help honestly think about all those hot alien asses out there you tell them that there's a bunch of asari they're real and they exist out there space travel funding would go up so much like 10 billion percent so this is this is a question actually related to this like so a lot of people find the the three-tiered woman in total recall to be like the dream as far as a woman is concerned i i've just never seen the appeal yeah like i've seen certain people well some people say that was their sexual awakening was the three-tiered woman in total recall and i just i don't see it i think that's just one too many i think you know the the two where they are you know that is perfect while i don't know what to do with the third one it just kind of feels like it's in a place that it shouldn't be i don't know where can i tell you dumb memory store idea what is what if strange saw his sister falling in the ice instead and when questioned about it he just walks off i don't think that raises really bad questions for me an event like that can just casually play um yeah like then again her parents getting [ __ ] sucked into a portal please so what do i know the reality is that the memory shop is just a really bad idea no matter what like memories you flash off yeah let's put it this way if if we're in the wrong room like we could fix it by having it play the memory of like no you're still broken just get rid of the memory store you could instead have these characters maybe conversing with each other and learning about their past that's never worked in storytelling i saw your end game review free i agree with you except on time travel it's bad but the rules are like in dragon ball z they make some sense no they don't i i would elaborate but i talked about it for a sizeable portion of that video i was gonna say all they said to you is they make sense and you're like well my argument's in the video so yeah there you go like all that really needs to be pointed out is that the captain america scene at the very end kneecaps any illusion of of consistency yeah there's loads of additional bits that ruin it too oh yeah that's plenty i like the idea oh you you put the top you put the stones back they'll be fine so first of all you know no they won't you did it in your video it's all there they've seen your videos because i just be repeating myself but like the tesseract doesn't exist anymore how do you put it back [Laughter] all right let's get the tesseract out the shards of tesseract it's just a rubik's cube take them to rivendell um a world of only women have you heard of futa i've heard of it but i don't know what it is really well google say have mercy on my soul i'm just gonna yeah i'm gonna google it that's my clever idea oh oh yeah that comes up on metal stream a lot i'll let i'll let your imaginations fly wild with that why didn't they think to use the eight one eight infinity stones while in eight one eight soul stone likely could have prevented wanda from dreamwalking into one eight one eight wanda yeah they they don't let us know what the state of the infinity stones in their universe is they just because they show that they defeat thanos which means presumably their vision is a thing too i don't know i guess they just work with the idea that we didn't tell you so you can't be definitive about it but i think it has to be addressed it would be an idea that doc strange would have he'd be like use infinity stones against you somebody please oh i am this is kind of related um i was i don't know why i was doing this but i i was just googling what the infinity stones did in the comics and i found out something interesting which was um uh all the stones um that all of their attributes are compromised if they do not if they are not all together so the reality stone for example can actually affect reality but it the consequences could be dire if it's not also done with the other stones and i just find that interesting that that limitation is in the comics that's a i think that's a that's something you can work with within the films but they never thought to to bring that in because all the stones seem to have almost unlimited power on their own within their own different realms it's it it's bizarre that that's there in the book but it's not brought into the universe where it could be very important to do maybe yeah i think they needed to have more rounded rules on those things um i super chad that i came from hassan to jay to ephap before still loving this podcast learning a lot how would you counter the idea that wander is a compelling strong villain like the joker or the green goblin no um would i argue it i would just ask oh i thought they were saying like how would you counter the argument to that and i don't say like i need to know what the argument is before i can counter it i guess but i um i would consider it baffling they're uh what what's compassion uh what's compelling about green goblin is that it's a variation of norman's personality that's run amok and so like but but still his personality like norman himself is still in there and it comes through every once in a while it's up to the audience to tell the difference between genuine norman and the green goblin pretending to be norman which can be complicated and that's precisely what spider-man has to deal with it is complicated because it doesn't exactly know what's happening there if you had a cure be much easier and then as for um those other examples charcoal i mean joker's just like it's a man that's had such a [ __ ] rough life that you get why he snaps but that doesn't make him like i don't know because there's a huge component that's missing for wanderers understanding how the [ __ ] she got from a to b i guess something as well that's important to think about when it comes to factoring in the strength of a villain is who the protagonist is that they're up against like joker is kind of a perfect foil for batman um it's so it's such a great pairing could you put up a character who's meant to be like a really methodical logical calculated pretty reserved person against somebody who is entirely unhinged very unpredictable in a sense um chaotic whereas i don't know like is wander a really good foil for doctor strange i don't know i don't yeah i don't know enough about either of them to even know if that is or isn't the case it's just too yeah they wanted to try and force a level of foiling that that they they uh they share a similar goal i don't have much of a relationship well they try and imply that like they make similar decisions in relation to the whole grand calculus thing which is so fun no it's not even one that makes every decision she makes that's against the rules is selfish it's just for her benefit yeah every decision doctor strange makes is for the greater good and it means things like putting himself in perpetual [ __ ] torture with dormammu dying in infinity war on the hope that things will pan out okay he makes a lot of hard trades yeah and they're always for the great good uh as you said yeah lacking any understanding of how they're motivated to do anything they're doing on top of having no like meaningful reference to the person that they are the antagonist for these are two things that i would argue go against being able to be compelled by wander in any way shape or form her writing is [ __ ] bad yep uh unfortunate also the fact that you said you went from hassan to j to us that's fascinating if uh if we're an entryway to the alt-right pipeline so is hassan at this point right yeah that tracks shouldn't toby and andrew be in the mcu for two days cause an incursion yes yeah but that rule didn't exist yet so by the way you guys should get the birdman on next time you cover cinemasins uh we might who knows who knows who knows if you all want to watch some good multiverse tissue content for free then go and watch in space with markiplier awesome stuff tally ho raggleton hi avast um yeah okay there you go if that's what you're looking for that's where you can find it apparently uh what if black bolt gets the hiccups would that be fatal for people around him maybe they would argue that hiccups don't count for whatever reason can you imagine he just does a little hiccup and melts like melts professor x yeah like coughing would that or is it like something specific to like the vocalizing is that what happens if he puts his hand in front of his mouth does it just melt well you have to wonder breathing does that not count uh i guess he breaks for his nose all the time forever well yeah but couldn't you theoretically make kind of noises while closing your mouth and breathing through your nose still yeah i don't know i got nothing i'm fine if the if the rules are it's only when he speaks or vocalizes then i'm like i'm fine i'll just i'll buy it i'm totally i'm totally down with that yeah i'm more than happy to get to go ahead and grant that as an aspect of his powers keep your rodent mitts off my prequels mouse they're not great but damn it i love them and they're mine don't toss them to the garbage like you did the ot too late buddy it's off my apples the kenobi show look if if we end up saying it's good that would be it'll be a dream don't know that that's gonna happen okay uh yay she-hulk's big beautiful feet tearing through her shoes that's all i ever wanted from this show some people are happy with that okay and that's nice i'm just gonna leave it there imagine being she-hulk's foot slave also she's very ticklish um you guys why with the weird super chat why can't you just be normal that's normal questions jacoby watch unedited unedited footage of a bear on youtube very creepy stuff an unedited uh that's oh it's an infomercial from adult swim okay but but unedited footage of a bear yeah it's yeah it's a 10 and a half minute infomercial from adult swim netflix's witcher is totally fine a nice six out of ten most complaints i read are that it changes things from the books it's an okay show i've not seen it but i can't say but i've heard lots of bad things i don't think anyone else here has watched it either nope movie suggestion who killed captain captain alex and yeah that could happen at some point i don't see why not it's a classic yep um madoka's power is being the protagonist you said that multiverse amanda's had most luck but when she rolls dice her luck is such that they stack on top of each other and they're all sixes as well she's also guessed a nine digit password first try her entire point is that she's so perfect and skilled that she's driven others to despair and can no longer relate to others she can only justify her skill as hyper luck by thinking thinking she can pull up anyone to a level your entire ark in the manga story is basically about a mary sue being played straight and they're jesus christ so much of this um well this doesn't quite line up but it says and there to find a meaningful connection to those around them without alienating them with their overwhelming skill and abilities it's been described that her power is being the protagonist so things always go her way the end message of the story is that no matter how skilled or amazing or powerful or likable you are even if the world revolves around you like it does madaka every everyone is a person and the connections we forge are the most valuable things we have it's that search for genuine connection that drives madaka to change even though she already seems to have it all was there a question i or we just because um that's an interesting idea i guess this kind of reminds me of one punch man right like if you create a universe where there's like a god-like character who can just have anything go the way that they want at all times like how do you make that interesting like well her relationships are going to be contingent on her powers presumably and that's not going to be satisfying or meaningful and thus create a lot of circumstances where she's unsatisfied and lots of points can be made about as they said being powerful being likable being blah blah doesn't give you everything you're looking for in life or something but um yeah yeah i mean interesting stuff the power said she's so lucky she's driven others to despair it's just like oh she's so skilled [ __ ] uh the thing is black bolts powers are tied to the speech region of his brain even if he can't speak a hum from him will still destroy a building okay um a transformers arc would be funny have you seen high tops multiverse of madness video peak escatisms i have actually seen it it basically just appeals to the whole um uh are you happy team and then talks about how sam is incredible and that his style came through lovingly and that this film managed to beat back being marvel formulaic sort of thing which you guys have a lot to cover coming up i don't think we'll cover that um but you're right we have got lots of different things we can cover it's a multiverse of videos and media uh how long has america been getting chased by wanda's tissue monsters how much of a time skip have we had with no one checking on wanda iraq's hello um i guess it wouldn't matter right because if you were to go check on it you should just be using the book and you wouldn't really know what's going on um and i don't know that well doctor strange can find deer instantly so yeah that's part of the problem actually he never goes to a dresser in any way shape or form when he knows about west view that's a problem he only comes up to her to say it's all chill don't worry about it yeah she made things right yeah you're right that someone should have at least talked to her because it would have been him but as for how long has she been doing this um i guess it could have started recently probably did start recently actually because of westview right that's what it was time so america was probably of the age he is now when this started happening um have you seen the she-hulk trailer yes looks cringe well yeah because it's the conversation around the cgi is kind of distracted from there's nothing really about it that like interesting yeah really bland lame jokes pretty i and you just get the distinct impression of you're not gonna fully explore like the law in a superhero world are you i don't think so hey vernee are you enjoying the new kirby game the final boss stages make it feel like dark souls of kirby games i really enjoyed kirby in the forgotten land and i agree the final boss was some crazy lovecraftian [ __ ] uh yeah that game's fun cool that's good to hear uh wow i never catch these nice insert memes well yeah neat nice mean uh look up time travel lorenz effect law why just look it up time travel lauren's effect yeah i don't i i l-a-u-r-e-n lauren uh no l-o-r-e-n-z oh the lawrence uh l-o-r-e-n-t-z yeah lawrence um lawrence tran the lawrence transformation is the relationship between two different coordinate frames that move at constant velocity that are relative and irrelevant relative to each other um apparently a clock in a moving frame will be seen to be running slow or dilated according to the lawrence transformation the time will always be shortest as measured in its rest frame the time measured in the frame in which the clock is at rest is called the proper time so i assume what this means is okay the twin parrot this this talks about a so i suppose this has to do with yeah i i'm just looking at mathematical formulas i i need to this needs to be explained to someone like they just googled it and aren't a physicist like i said it's probably a vague explanation for what system they were using in the tomorrow war i assume with the beginning of what you said the two points that are parallel to each other or something in time whatever maybe uh let me see frames of history derivations yeah like if i i just don't understand any of this this is not my i don't understand the formulas and what a loser let's see a six parameter family of linear transformations from a coordinate frame in space time to another frame that moves at a constant velocity relative to the former so like i recognize all those words but putting them together in that order in a sentence and i'm just like i just don't know what you're talking about um first impressions of naruto character named payne i have no idea who that is how am i not seeing any naruto i'm afraid i don't think rags has either no oh i saw one episode and that was enough for me and i'll probably never see it again the red guy has a fun vid on obi-wan for xbox all right anyone will see a video on the obi-wan xbox game it says the red guy assume that his name rather than someone who is red um if this is where the mcu is headed country oh county out bounty out [Laughter] clearly says county out how how does it get through he clearly says county out it's a hell legitimately interesting fringy excellent endgame video if they want it oh yeah so that's a separate thing there's another thing then all right thanks uh if they wanted to grab me they replace she hulk with sue hulk for wholesomeness also high ranks hi fair enough i think it's obvious that the writers of the mcu don't understand the idea that between each number from infinity to infinity there are infinite numbers of numbers yeah infinity has a meaning they don't like its meaning yeah america's traumatic past was caused by a portal shaped as a star where's a jacket with a star next mcu movies will ignore nexus beings in the multiverse it is kind of weird she has a star on it like she chose i guess she really wanted that once she got used to her powers i don't know i i kind of see it as this oh sorry not go for it um if i'm to steal man that i can maybe say that it might that might be a subconscious manifestation where she identifies heavily with the star symbol so her portals come out as stars because maybe it's influenced by um maybe maybe maybe it's a subconscious thing i don't know the only thing i can think of um just the stars and stripes as well on your jacket right it's like an american jacket which is again like seems like childish characterization for little costume design to me like america chavez where's an america jacket it's like she does but she's not she's not from america though right she's from like some like like the mistake i think a lot of people make is like she's not but it's like we have no idea she she moved to wherever she moved to really early on in her life we don't know what life she's lived right uh so i don't know funniest marvel movie acronym fatwas tasm or doctor strange mom that was a pretty good one that's just funny for some reason i will say it is but fat was probably uh england did you know that muller is your citizen also why is rags a fox i am not i'm not a fox i'm a sheep um also a free we're a frog do you think he'd be in denial of being one well i'm not one so yes i would answer that one yeah yeah i couldn't say there are new expansions for stellaris but i'm torn because paradox is such a commie hole you massive's ever playing it again ah maybe find pokemon manga picks originally was supposed to be edgy uh i'm gonna be honest with you i'm not too bothered with looking up pokemon manga that sounds like it take a while to figure out what you even want us to see yeah does it burn wherever it goes lol look at slugma oh presumably slugmar is a pokemon that burns wherever it goes uh yeah take a look here real quick uh this is the uh slugwood does not have any blood in its body instead intensely hot magma circulates throughout this pokemon's body carrying essential nutrients and oxygen to its organs we didn't need to know that just the le i feel like with a lot of these pokemon the less you tell me the better you know let me just theater of the mind this [ __ ] and let's move on i've got that chart that has all of the pokedex entries and all the versions that it's in uh i saved that from last time because some because this has like gold silver crystal ruby sapphire fire red leaf green emerald diamond pearl platinum heart gold soul silver black white black 2 white 2 x y omega ruby apple sapphire brilliant diamond shiny pearl it's been in a lot of different versions and they all have different pokedex you know entries um it says here that da da da da da some of these are yeah it says a lot that if it if it stops moving then it will cool down and harden so it has to keep moving kind of scary too which is kind of scary yeah i guess it doesn't have to sleep just always snl sketch about black widow movie a hallmark rom-com was meant to be a parody somebody please tell whoever is making she-hulk also high-ranks hello i didn't see that and that's probably because i don't get anywhere near snl it's unfunny yeah i have not been i just don't watch snl i haven't really ever but i've heard that it has not gotten better over time um day five of reciting maxwell's bloodborne video to get you to watch it the gameplay is what makes this game great the easiest way to describe it is simple but complicated on a simple level your baby brain is responsible for only two tasks dodging and hitting and dodging in this game renders you temporarily invincible sounds easy right wrong because every single enemy is adjusted to keep pace with you i mean to a degree that's kind of true like i don't even see it as a parody cover they are uh they are much faster in that game compared to like dark souls and stuff because of the fact that you're faster it's a faster game uh what is the best age for people to become pokemon trainers do you have age ranges for certain pokemon like categories also high rags muller and frengu hey i have no idea i have no idea it would be illegal in my world it's just yeah it's you've got animals fighting each other to the faint i guess but i guess if if i were in a world where it is legal and i get to decide the age limit i guess i would put it to the highest and then if i had to do a realistic one like under gunpoint i don't know whatever um i guess like 20 or something i i don't even really i'm surprised that there aren't more like in the pokemon world people who are protesting yeah throwing blood at pokemon trainers like it's murder they're not your slaves that's just one of those worlds where you're like oh man like i just don't see how this could function all of these crazy matters like creatures super cute some of them they are super cute yeah well they have a level of sentience almost some of them and you're making them fight each other but it's okay when they're not inside of pokeballs yeah little like balls that dematerialize them and contain make them fight yeah fight to the faint with fire and stuff you know like yeah like there's no way that an onyx wouldn't just kill a pikachu well yeah could you knock it out like or something or like grudon just like zapdos or any number of these crazy pokemon but it was gyarados i thought i was scared i didn't wait i said i wait gear what am i wait i'm getting confused now i'm thinking about zapdos what did i say did i say oh kyogre that's what i was thinking but zapdos yeah it's it's gyarados yeah zapdos i call zapdos mainly because of the fact that it's referencing dos right oh i didn't know that i thought it was referencing zap why yeah it's true both of them i figured that part was intuitive well you know you never know i just um throwing that out there uh but i don't know like dos is in what like a doc meter or a like the digital element zapdos looks like low poly count but also electric it's like a technology thing i'm guessing that's the reference but zapdos it does look like a like there's a low poly one in the game but i mean in like the pokemon world he's like a bird like he's a he's a regular old bird yeah so um i don't disagree that i'm just saying that that was my impression was was there another origin to calling it zapdos that i'm not aware maybe maybe there's something on the the bulbapedia which i'm assuming is the wikipedia for pokemon um where's the etymology is there a category for adam no there isn't okay um maybe it's in trivia uh so in english uh oh it i found it i looked up zapdos name so zapdos is a combination of yeah i just saw it and dose spanish for two but i'm getting that it is the second in the series of kanto legendary articuno and it comes it comes off oh i never noticed that i never noticed that i think i knew this before and i completely forgot it i think it's because the first part of the name is you know arctic zap yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so that's that kind of overshadows the the the second parts okay okay but according to bowlerpedia it says zapdos may be a combination of zap and dos spanish for two indicating that it is the second in the series of kanto legendary birds wait i'm confused did you just miss everything me and rex just said yeah but i didn't hear that part that's literally what we were talking about that was exclusively what we were talking about but it would it would be dose either way right um it's talking about how it's based on the native american legend of the thunderbird a spirit of thunder lightning and rain that took the form of a giant bird um which is why i think i've just had a view of it that was those just uh assumed because do you meet it in some kind of power plant or something technological to some degree and i might have just assumed dos was supposed to be representing of dos but looks cool as [ __ ] i think they all yeah they all look pretty wait what is this gallerian zapdos what is that what is is that like a subspecies of zapdos i don't know oh maybe it's an evolved one because they've added more things right yeah because well they have the um yeah the mega evolution so that might be that um yeah because i was about to say like the interesting one with gyarados versus gyrados i actually think gyra dose would probably be more intuitive when you read the name but i remember getting gyarados just from watching the show at the time i'm pretty sure i bet a lot of the names might have strange pronunciations because of like localization or like just general pronunciation between different languages or companies so i bet that probably happens a lot when it comes to like japanese and american sort of crossover stuff well i found out recently that like odin thor and valhalla they're all just like wrong pronunciations of the way that those words are supposed to sound we just sort of didn't care when we how are you meant to say valhalla uh the person i was talking to about this they said them all but it's hard to remember what is uh what is what is going on well i know well i know that hercules is meant to be pronounced hereklies yeah i think it's her yeah heroic completely aware of that one yeah that way well because that makes sense more in line with like pericles i mean there's a lot of those though where it's like i'm not even i remember when i played assassin's creed odyssey i was kind of confused when like socrates had a k instead of a c and everybody had a k instead of a c there was just no c it was all k's instead of those and i was wondering if that was just like some sort of thing that we do and just translating to english that wasn't correct yeah because language so the that that uh latin the romans pretty much did away with the letter kappa when adding greek words in the latin replacing the k almost entirely so the so generally the the romans replace k's with c's okay um in their letter the letter k is very rare in latin uh wow i mean it's certainly rarer in english than c so we have the letter c in the roman alphabet came much earlier derived from what the greek letter uh from what was the greek letter gamma or y uh yeah it's it's like how there is no uh w in latin it's uh latin doesn't have a w the letter v which was not at the time distinct from u was given the w sound so okay it's not it's that's why for those of you who a lot of people probably learn this from fallout new vegas where they pronounce latin classically not in either an italian or church tradition but the classical latin pronunciation whenever you see a v in a latin word it's pronounced as a w like alway it is a and that's how it is that also why they pronounce it kaiser yes kaisar yeah yeah it's all it also helps to remember how to spell it too if you need to spell caesar for a salary what it's kaisar is how you can remind uh or remember it yeah it's a more phonetic pronunciation i don't think latin has a like a z either or very little z's well then well then hello gents have you heard of the show from a masterfully crafted horror show i believe it is right up your alley hope you all give it a shot from f-r-o-m apparently a netflix thing or uh the from let me take a look from tv series it's produced by the russo brothers interesting they produced that they produced everything everywhere all at once too they sure did you know what good for them good for them this looks like the premise is in a in a nightmarish town in middle america that traps everyone who enters they wanted to get rid yeah they really wanted to get away from the mcu unwilling residents strive to stay alive and search for a way out but they are plagued by the terrifying nocturnal creatures from the surrounding forest hey i'll give this a chance what is it on you guys want to watch this i'm i'm down it's it's a it the series premiered on epics on february 20th 2022. what the [ __ ] is epics i have no clue what epics is original american premium cable and satellite television network okay but what about like streaming it's got to be on something right we've got to find a way to acquire we'll we'll find it we'll look into it okay we'll have a look at this maybe i would a premise i'm legit i'm interested in this if you guys want to take a look later i really am it'd be nice to watch good things it would and i am uh yeah especially after watching every everything everywhere all at once which was produced by the russo brothers as you mentioned uh i'm excited to see stuff from them now that they're you always wonder like they they i know them most from the marvel stuff and now that their shackles are loosened from the mcu you wonder what kind of stuff they produce and want to make you know like uh now we could do the things we want to do or we can the first two things we made aware of is people being trapped in a town and a multiverse thing it's like man it makes you wonder we just want to do your idea but actually good yeah it might be maybe the rest of their lives they just hold it over the mcu we're gonna take your ideas and just do them better allegedly because we have not seen from maybe prom sucks why am i saying from from maybe thumb sucks from al from let me summarize eckhart's ladder for you all these cross universe comparisons are fun but in the end everyone loses to kid goku not even close i don't know i don't understand any of that all i can draw from it is are you suggesting that like like cross universe battles like like chief versus big daddy type conversations and you're saying everyone would lose to kid goku is kid goku really powerful strong would i mean would wander or she did him into spaghetti i don't know um personally i find the conflation between mary sue's and op characters frustrating op characters can work if there is a tangible conflict in some form again we've pretty much moved away from the whole mary sue thing because it it gets people triggered kind of destroys the conversation yeah we'll just focus on the individual components it's the same kind of thing as plot armor um but not in the sense that it's become a thing to avoid like people like using it translates an idea very quickly plot armor what is it and it's like well it's either a contrivance or a hole usually the whole being they should be dead all the controversy they should be really hurt and they somehow aren't maybe they fell really luckily on their body or you know whatever um but like we call them we call it plot armor because it signifies like a whole set of ideas immediately to people and they're like aha and mercy could have become that but it hasn't it's instead evolved into this angled conversation yeah it was unfortunately kind of tainted not that it shouldn't have been i mean it shouldn't have been i mean like in the sense of it was it was a legitimate observation on characters as far as we used it at least um so now we just talk about it in different ways or we refer to it in a much more tongue-in-cheek kind of reference and it's more a joke but i mean we'll still make the criticisms but we might not we might avoid using that terminology yeah but it never went away as a criticism so don't worry it's not like we conceded that kind of we've like there'll be times where we describe the problems with the character and someone in the audience might be like are they just saying she's a mary sue and it might be like maybe maybe that might be what's happening right now if you pull pieces together um yeah just about straying away from the shorthand that could confuse some people and just explaining what the what would have been the uh use of the shorthand in a way that everyone can understand dumpldy dumb i agree with you yeah they're coming out with an adult velma ascii tv show made by mindy kaling in which she makes velma herself as she is race swapped and acts like mindy who is who mindy oh so it's a self-insert entirely um oh mindy can't i made better yeah okay well that sounds oh that's very special oh i'm gonna show you a screenshot from that show um it's it's it's a bit r-rated um kaling reveals brown adults only velma if people freak out i don't care literally what is left of it at this point that would be recognizable as velba from scooby-doo how is that even like i know because we joke about this in some ways but this actually sounds like the closest we've gone to where it's like i'm going to make scooby-doo it will be r-rated star none of the characters except one who has been completely personality and race-swapped you're like what the [ __ ] is this that's the velma show you just want to take over the name you just want to use the name for yourself you just want to use the dinkley as a name and you want to take that so that you could use it yeah what i'm seeing here is a girl with a head chopped off and a naked girl is there too what the hell yeah well they're not even the head chopped off it's very bubbles brain has been chopped out like right on top of their heads accessory i don't um okay that you know one thing that's interesting looking at scooby-doo is that back in the original like the og scooby-doo you know who you know who made all the traps who made all the constructions contraptions and you know traps throughout the show development it was fred oh everyone thinks it was velma right um but every every character had their thing and velma was the he's definitely the intellectual fred wasn't an idiot he wasn't just some lunk head he would he was a he was constructed i was actually gonna say would that be tied to like some kind of like boy scout upbringing maybe that he's familiar with traps very possible perhaps at the time it was certainly more just almost a given that a well then again you know shaggy is i don't know i guess everyone was just different and he was out of ice because fred was the leader yeah he was a hands-on kind of guy yeah he he drove the mystery machine do you do the traps but everyone had their things that they would what did i what a daphne she was more like the social part of it wasn't she i think so and i don't know like shaggy and scooby just kind of don't they just they were just scared around they were the best they're the funny people that you're there to laugh at doing their shenanigans that is true i know in later versions they had made i forget i forget what it was called because there's been probably a million and one different versions of it well they just made fred the stupid idiot hardcore in the james gunn films i'm pretty sure he's kind of characterized that way right like he's i think he's brave and he's pretty strong but he's also an idiot yeah yeah which is a shame because you know like in the originals he was never that well rags the freedom of adaptation baby that's true i'm ready for a like a legitimate horror scooby-doo do it but all the characters are the same well you know like the character of super cute apocalypse that's a legitimate comic oh really yeah and like scooby is like this lab ex this russian lab experiment and it's all like from in the and then they end up in the post-apocalypse and they have to survive the post-apocalypse um probably get an image of it oh my god they've got ray guns and everything scooby-doo has done everything yeah they kind of have because they've been around for so long yeah and they just keep it it must be insanely lucrative because we get a new scooby-doo film every year we have scooby-doo comics coming out all the time scooby-doo has crossed over with batman about four times at this point um and they've even done scooby-doo in the multiverse of madness it was yeah 1969 is where it uh when it began all those years ago uh i like the drawn versions of the real life group on the left side uh glad you liked everything everywhere all at once smaller i wanted to recommend it to you but i thought it'd be hard since it has a title like that you might be put off um i think that the reverse effect usually happens with me with weird tiles i'm often intrigued by like that is a that is a really non-palatable title i'm interested in why they chose it but it is awkward too refer to the film casually a lot of people go with e-e-a-a-o like in text but in in voice i feel like everything every world wants is like you end up like trying to maybe resort to calling it everything and then like that doesn't quite you know it's like talking about the film it in the sub in subject of other films like jesus christ's most inefficient [ __ ] name for a movie eva because if we because if we wanted to try and shorten everything everywhere all at once it would be ee wow you out yo yowa [Music] wow speaking of hot recommendations play dlc dumbos and that brings us to the uh that's that for those those catchers that's not we haven't caught up fully with our uh things but we will have by the time this is so neat um thank you all for giving this a little listen hopefully you're doing fine on this this wonderful saturday night that this would have premiered and um i guess we'll see you next week for whatever shenanigans we get up to yeah everybody stuff uh yeah i was about to say this i didn't want to do any updates but i guess they'd be out of date by the time this comes out yeah kind of kind of useless yeah um so in that case links to people's channels in the description if you want to check them out and um thank you so much for uh for watching for tuning in and for kind donations support discussion comments whatever it is you get up to thank you all and uh well good night goodbye goodbye everybody thanks for listening

Channel: MooLer

Views: 92,148

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Id: 136b3ooRATg

Length: 356min 40sec (21400 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 04 2022