Edward Said interview (1998)

in the aftermath of US and British airstrikes in Iraq the long-term achievements of the mission remain uncertain the UN Security Council is divided on how to forge ahead with the Taraki policy three of the five permanent members Russia China and France have called for the lifting of sanctions as well as the removal months come executive chairman Richard Butler joining me now Columbia University's Edward Saeed he is a well known cultural historian an expert on Middle East issues and an author of a number of books and I'm pleased to have him here later we will have the perspective of two journalists who write about the Middle East right he does during him and he some melam they will be here following on my conversation with Edward Saeed I am pleased to have him on this broadcast welcome thank you it's good to see you good to be here you are troubled by American policy to the Middle East in general right and specifically you find fault with the Iraqi policy on what grounds well I think it's it's sort of inconsistent I think it's cruel I think it's short-sighted and I think it's in the end ineffective I mean I know it's not clear what in the end is intended I mean they want to get rid of Saddam Husein but obviously they haven't and you can't do it this way they want to contain him there's not much to contain I mean he's not a threat to anyone the repetition of you know the the threat that he poses to his neighbors and the others I think it's kind of hollow and in the end I think it's it's he's a convenient devil you know he's he's a kind of figure out there to be knocked every so often he serves that purpose but beyond that I don't see what what the policy is all about let me come back and talk about the future the Middle East and maybe American foreign policy in general but let me stay with saying should we try to remove him no I of course not I mean we can't be in the business of removing people that we don't like I mean I would put if that was the case there are a lot of candidates for for that position I mean for example I would think that one would want to get rid of a lot of figures in the Middle East who are sort of troublesome and dictatorial and simply going noplace I mean but that can't be the card of honorable if he has nuclear weapons biological weapons and chemical weapons and knows has the means and the will to use them yeah he has neither one nor the other okay but suppose he does does that bother you yeah of course it bothers me but there are a lot of nuclear powers who have it like Israel who have all of those weapons like the United States who have use their their weapons have no concern no visible constraints well and say you know you and I have friends and right we're having a debate he I don't want people get the wrong idea but the united states to which remarkable admiration yeah since world war ii first as the only nuclear power and then later with the soviet union being an opposing superpower never ever used its nuclear weapons after the war it used but it did use them against war it did i mean it's really the conclusion to that war but i Ida saved American lives well I disagree with you on all these matters in other words I don't think American foreign policy is admirable I think it's I think the United States is an imperial power the last imperial power it behaves like all other imperial powers behave no I mean I think it does I mean look look what the United States has done in Central America look what the United States has done in Indonesia look what it did in Cambodia look what it did in Indonesia it supported Suharto regime which was it supported the invasion of East Timor in 1976 I mean there's a there's a long record and the United States to come to the part of the world that I know best the United States has four years supported corrupt dictatorial in every sense of the word unprogressive regimes for one okay fine they supported Saddam Hussein that was a strategic move at the time is the reason because they wrong yeah we're holding American hostages for a while and secondly the support for Saddam began in the 70s they supported him for other reasons he was for one thing one thing that hasn't been made clear I think in general discussions about Iraq Iraq I think is of all the Middle Eastern countries the Arab countries is the one with the greatest potential technologically agriculturally in point of view of natural resources and its human resources what do you want to tell the good people of Kuwait that that when Saddam Hussein invaded that country kind of atrocities that were committed in the name of Iraq and that evasion you know that he's no threat to his neighbor of course he was a threat to his neighbor's there's no question about it the irony is that Kuwait supported him in the war with Iran they gave him 15 billion dollars and when I was there but that have nothing to do with it agree with you know but I mean here's something to remember that they thought that he was the champion of the Arabs against the Persians I mean this is a fact why did they support him I for example have never had anything to do with the Iraqi regime in any shape or form I never saw him as a champion of the Arabs I understood that Iraq is a important powerful rich impressive Arab country but that had the most one of the most horrible regimes in the world what I'm saying is that there's a series of inconsistencies based on real politic and changing interests that have to be recognized it's not it's not a matter of good and evil the good if you want to consider the quite he's good supported him and then he swallowed them okay but no my point again was that he's shown that he is prepared to act when he has the will and the means to act and invade a neighbor yes they were going into Saudi Arabia right I don't know but I suspect you don't like I'm no I well no of course not I mean do you like them I mean it what I mean what is there to like I mean the point is that the Middle East is full of regimes invading other countries I mean Israel has invaded four Arab countries is still an occupation of south Lebanon still an occupation mostly Israel has invaded I mean Israel has not attacked which war did they start 1978 they invaded Lebanon okay but let me go back who started the six-day war we are who started yom kippur war war at the on the occupation they invaded Sinai the Egyptians they invaded their own territory held by the Israelis they crossed the Suez Canal which is Egyptian territory after they had been attacked who after that after who do an attack no I mean what do you what part is real we're talking about 73 is that right well so no we've been all over the place as he said bacon in 1982 said that the 67 war was not a necessary war they knew perfectly well that they would win the war Nasr got himself in this ridiculous position threatening Israel and being simply physically unready but be that as it may be that as it may every UN resolution since that time including the ones passed against Iraq have said that no occupied territory according to the Geneva Conventions the international international law and UN resolutions can be held indefinitely so it's not we rock alone that's doing it it's a common practice that's all I'm saying okay but I mean even you believe in them against them or are you against the peace process no I'm against our you know which piece by Oslo peace process I was critical of it from the beginning I'm of course for peace yes but I think it can't be just any kind of peace so that I'm not says supported by Arafat and I realize you have huge differences with very quick the Palestinian Authority because you have no difference in council council I'm sorry but look when - I was right I predicted that this would happen it's not over yet I think it's pretty much you got a call for a unity government and it really may very well get back on track yeah well maybe problem with the peace process as it now stands is that there are - there's too much of a disparity between the sides the Israelis control too much territory Palestinian territory and Palestinians cannot look forward cannot look ahead to self-determination which is what I think is needed I think to have peace yeah I think what you need to have pieces you have to have reconciliation the Palestinians are the victims of a historical injustice many Israelis will agree with this and so now yeah of course so that if justice has to be rectified in some way I think first of all it has to be acknowledged the peace process says nothing about that second Palestinians have to be assured that at the end of the process there will be self-determination hold the Palestinians let's get to Iraq I just want to understand where you are you're basically saying he's no threat he's ineffective we don't need two analogies no threat now he's no okay now he's no threat you know there because my threat or no threat now I'll tell you why is he no longer a threat he a threat to his neighbors what we were talking about why all the indications are that he doesn't have the military or or technological means why did that come to bear that he does not have the military or technological means yes as a result launched an attacking guys yeah exactly exactly I'm talking about what happened afterwards what happened afterwards is you had this regime of sanctions for seven or eight years right Charlie six thousand children are dying every month understand yes but I mean it has to be taken it should but why don't you get Saddam Hussein to take it into consideration is the argument made by the Secretary of State for Saddam Hussein I'm simply saying is more than Saddam Husein okay but sanctions you didn't oppose I mean you could argue yeah you can argue that people got hurt because of sanctions imposed against any government including South Africa right right right yeah of course now and it forced those some in some cases governments to change but there was a and the government then changed and things got better for their people now you and I might agree on the fact that generally when you have a despot he's unlikely to change because of sanctions because it doesn't hurt him it hurts the people II exactly the question is is this the top foreign policy threat to the United States I think it isn't in other words I think that it brought two into perspective Iraq is potentially a very powerful country as I say was of all the Arab countries it was the most interesting and potentially powerful of the Lord it's now been bombed back to let's say 200 years it's become if it it will not recover it any in the near future anything like its technological and social services so it is it is now in my opinion no longer said agree I agree I agree that so that was saying obviously is the worst thing that can happen to this country but I think one has to look beyond that to look to the society to look to the region and to try to figure out some policy that is consistent and not you know when you feel like it and the the the cynicism of this last strike is quite obvious so the reason you're here too is to express your feelings I'm and that's why I want to hear from you it ideas better you know because you are eloquent in terms of both analysis as well as your expression of that analysis what should we do just leave them alone I think so yes I do think so in other words I think that but not in this case benign neglect and allowing the natural to steal a line from their name exactly I mean I don't think that there's anything that the United States can rationally or or positively do it can feel good by bombing you know it's a good testing ground for high-tech weapons but beyond that look at the I mean the day after what are the accomplishments of this absent very very few I thought well you know that's an interesting question to investigate and I don't know the answer yet and I'm not sure anyone knows the answer yet they believe they'd be in the administration or at least they say they accomplished the mission which was to degrade his capacity to wage either biological chemical or nuclear warfare I talked last week with an Iraqi scientist who defected 1994 he said Saddam had will unless he is removed get and have the ability to deploy nuclear weapons and he's within a year of being able to do that I'm not sure about that you know I mean many of the others come reports the reports from the United Nations indicate that it's a much more complex picture than that than anything simple like in a few months he will have it a nuclear capacity I mean that's that's you know that's kind of nonsense well because I mean everything that we know suggests that it's a country and dire straits that the possibility of reconstructing a massive arms industry of a sort that existed before the Gulf War a very very small why do you think it found that there excuse me I just let me just finish this point that there are other more important things than the constant beating up on Saddam Husein and Iran I mean I think it is a calamity I'm not trying to minimize that but I think what's more important is the preservation and development of Iraqi society so that there is they will develop a development an alternative to Saddam Hussein within the society that's the only hope it can't be done by these 60 70 80 opposition groups that the CIA is giving money to they're not doing anything they're squabbling among themselves they have no standing they have no constituency visible constituency inside Iraq it's obvious that it has to come from Iraq think and this is the logic that I think in the end will will will restore something like the semblance of a civil society to Iraq not constant bombing and this kind of in my opinion dehumanized cruelty that we administer just because it's a convenient thing to do he's defenseless as you know there wasn't a single American casualty I mean this man cannot respond so I think to put him back in the bin and to concentrate on what can be done to develop within the society I don't know how the United States can do it maybe there are things that are beyond the United States power I think that's an important thing to to admit and to and to concede Edward say my friend is a professor at Columbia he's written a number of books I said many of them penetrating analysis of our culture and also of the Middle East I thank you with coming your I make note of a program note that your coming back for a long conversation that has to do with your not only your work but also your life thank you very much charlie thank you it would say deed back in a moment to new perspectives on the war against Iraq from two journalists stay with us

Channel: Manufacturing Intellect

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Id: PPqDnWn8uYM

Length: 14min 26sec (866 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 30 2016