Ed Winters: The hidden costs of our food choices

hi everyone my name is Natalie and I'd like to welcome you all at the University of Constance we are so so happy to have Ed winters here tonight with a public speaker animal rights activist and educator based in London he's very well known under the name earthling yet especially in the vegan community so I cannot tell you how excited we were when we found out which was actually on my birthday this year and he wanted to come and give a talk at our university here think yeah that really was one of the best birthday gifts I could have ever gotten since we unfortunately weren't able to book the autumn acts for tonight but did expect many people to come we organized the live broadcast which is taking place downstairs but I think most people are already down there so that's right so the whole event will also be recorded and published online once we have the link to it we will post it on Facebook on the event page so you can share it with all your friends and family and everyone who couldn't make it tonight or of course you could also watch the talk again if you want to lastly I just need to inform you that there will be photos taken tonight since this is a public event now in the name of the vegan sorority of Constance I wish you a pleasant night and thanks again for coming and for your attention thank you so much thank you for the introduction first of all happy birthday I think that's pretty sweet oh I know yeah yeah happy birthday for back when it was your birthday obviously not just randomly okay thank you for having me but thank you all for coming down is the live broadcast happening through that camera there then amazing well hello everyone upstairs that's cool thank you so much taking time out of your day to come and listen to me I'm going to talk about a few different things tonight and so before I talk about any of the stuff I always like to say two things to people and the first thing I like to say is please take everything that I say with a massive pinch of salt right what I mean by that is please believe that everything I'm saying is a lie and I'm trying to manipulate you into feeling a certain way right because I'm going to talk about some ideas I'm gonna name some studies talk about some statistics maybe and I want you to think that I'm using is a form of propaganda and then I want you to do is go home and have a look into it yourself because the thing is right we can watch TEDx speakers or YouTube videos or documentaries and we have a habit of taking everything that's said on face value don't we but it's so important that we scrutinize information that's given to us we look it up on our own and then reach our own conclusions that's so important and the second thing is at the end depending on how long I talk for I won't talk that long we'll have some time for Question and Answer right so if I say anything during the talk that you think huh it doesn't make sense or I missed something out or you think of something that I don't address then hold on to it and we'll try and get through as many questions as we possibly can because I think that's really important it's not fair for me just to sit and talk and then run out before you can question me about anything so hold on to those questions and let's see what dialogue and conversation we can have at the end okay before I want to talk about the main topics I want to tell you a little bit about myself because I think it's really important to talk about Who I am as well so you have some idea of who it is that you're listening to and so we're going to talk about veganism tonight actually this is funny I did a school talk yesterday and I said we're going to talk about veganism right and this girl she was like maybe set over there somewhere and she went and I was like I'm totally with you right I used to feel the exact same way their fault why you need you don't have to like me but unfortunately you do have to listen to me so try and make the most of that at least right we're going to talk about veganism I think it's important to state that I wasn't born vegan right I wasn't born vegan and I wasn't even born vegetarian I was raising the family where we used to laugh at vegetarians we thought they were hilarious right we'd sit around the dinner table we'd like some chicken breast or whatever and my stepdad would say oh you know what's the best thing about having a vegetarian round for dinner and then I'd be like oh it means more meat for us right and then we'd all have a good laugh about it it's just not funny at all right but we thought it was hilarious I remember being 12 years old and I was sat in an English literature class we're still getting study in a book and in the book there's a vegetarian character my teacher says to the class she says what do you think about being vegetarian I put my hand up in the air my teachers like yes Edwards and I say all the vegetarians are pale weak and skinny right which was super funny because I was like the weakest and skinniest in the room and I hit me every day right over my head right there was a girl sat behind me called Natasha I turned to look at Natasha because Natasha was a vegetarian I thought when I look to this she'd give me like a big thumbs up and be like I feel weak and skinny all the time Ed right but when I looked at her she was really angry at me like she was furious like really cross kind of took me back a little actually so I turned to look at my teacher hoping mighty sure would maybe give me the thumbs up all this the you know the recognition I said something that was right but she looked at me she was really concerned you know she was gonna get to trouble she was worried I said a lot of things I was 12 years old that were obviously just completely nonsensical it didn't make sense at all but I think I remember that moment because it reinforces how his children work sponges aren't we what I mean by that is we absorb what's given to us information that's given to us which is really important because as children we can't defend ourselves or look after ourselves and so we rely entirely on the guidance of those around us to make sure that we stay safe and so we take what's given to us through what we're told has been honest because our survival were used to especially when we were less civilized dependent on those around us being honest and giving us good information and so his children were so gullible because well we have to be to look after ourselves we're told don't talk to strangers you know we're told don't do this don't walk out there check the way before you cross the road and we're told well you need meat for protein as well and so you get to a certain age at least I did where I never really critically analysed the way that I'd lived and every thought about the things that I did and I never even for a second assume that you could live without me because I've been told my entire life that I had to eat it to survive but like blank canvases are we think of like an imaginary blank canvas our values our beliefs our morals our lifestyles are given to us almost wholly by our families our culture's by our traditions by our environments by our societies and we just become products of the worlds that we grew up in don't often challenge ourselves to think differently about the things that we've always done of course as flash forward a little bit I am now on eighteen seven years ago and I'm buying pizzas were friend my friend is vegetarian and I had no problem with my friend being vegetarian but could he never said a word to me about it I thought it was great I thought is so nice that he's vegetarian I love that but just ever talked to me about it right and then one day we're ordering a pizza and he says to me oh the audacity he says to me ed why don't we just get one pizza we'll make it vegetarian and well share it right and I looked him I said this is obviously a joke right you know me right this is a joke he said well ed why not I don't understand I said well is a very simple reason why not because bacon goes on pizza obviously right and if there's no bacon on top of it that that's some fake pizza right there right and I'm not spending my money on no fake pizza but has no a vegetarian pizza come on he said ed I don't think an animal should die for a pizza topping a pizza topping right we give pigs life they live a very nice life in a farm it's wonderful they're killed they're killed of course but it's done humanely so what was the problem and then at the end I get bacon it's called the food chain isn't it for goodness a pig's given life I get bacon amazing just like in nature he said that that wasn't a good enough reason but I was too stubborn to care and so we got half and half yet his veggie half I had my bacon half right now let's go back five and a half years ago up until this point I'd never considered why I would want to stop eating animals not for a second I didn't even want to think about it I love to eat animals I thought they tasted amazing part of my habits my routines I'd never considered it but five and a half years ago something happened which forced me to reevaluate well so much within my life and so I was reading the BBC online I came across this story and the story was about a truck carrying six thousand chickens crash it on the way to a slaughterhouse near a city called Manchester which is in northern England of course I remember reading this story and feeling pretty horrified because the JED the journalists had said that 1,500 of the animals had died from the crash alone just 1,500 lives taken just a split second but that's not really what upset me what have sent me more was the fact there were hundreds more of these animals who were alive but they were in pain and they were suffering so they had broken bones no broken wings broken beaks they were being crushed by the trucks or the crates they were being transported in and that made me really uncomfortable because I recognized for the first time there is such an obvious realization of course but I realized that the animals I consume have the capacity to suffer and feel pain so obvious and because they can suffer and feel pain they have a preference to avoid suffering and pain as a result and then I said to myself we'll look at all right everything's get a little bit out of hand here just chill out for a second okay the crush the crash is a rarity it doesn't happen often once every million journeys maybe who knows look at the farming and look at the slaughter and if the farming and slaughters find then you've got nothing to worry about I was what you called it I know watch some videos of what chicken farming and what chicken slaughter looks like I felt worse I couldn't believe what I'd watched I find pain for this if I say I'm against animal suffering but I see something what animals are so obviously suffering that goes against my values and the problem is in my fridge at that time was a KFC because fried chicken was my favorite food god I love fried chicken when I used to animals laugh it was the best I had a KFC there's a five minute walk from where I used to live five minutes is dangerously close right for your favorite food dangerous five minutes so I went there so often that the workers knew my name and they knew my favorite order ones which was a zinger box meal you see it of hash brown and we called it towering up but there in my fridge was the left toes of my left overs of my towered up fried chicken but I was reading something that made me feel deeply uncomfortable I've reached a crossroads in my life if you like the cliched fork in the road where you know one way or the other so the first thing I could do is I could bury my head in the sand good night just think it rewind 15 minutes pretend this never happened and just carry on as if everything's normal you're what 18 you've got another 60 70 years of life if you're really lucky so maybe just try and ignore those feelings have been a hypocrite for as long as you can you know who knows maybe you'll be alright maybe but at the same time well actually I don't if you guys have seen it I'm talking about the original spider-man films not these new ones or I can't stand these new ones I think they've rubbish I'm talking about the old ones right with Tobey Maguire in and Willem Dafoe the goodness where is the Green Goblin it's so good right in the film Uncle Ben says something very whimsical he says with great power comes great responsibility the classic line right from spider-man now I believe that knowledge is power and when we learn something about ourselves or about an industry or about something we didn't know about before we have a responsibility to act on we've learned especially what we've learned is so intrinsic to the way we live and the values that we have and the way that we live has such a consequence on the lives of others and so I learned that I was deeply uncomfortable with the process of what happens to animals I learned I was paying for something that went against my values of saying I was against animal suffering and I was against animal cruelty and so therefore I had a responsibility to act on what I'd learned and so I changed but at that point it was just a vegetarian just a vegetarian and I was were these vegetarians right you thought that vegans were mental I couldn't stand vegans right I thought there was self righteous I thought they were arrogant I thought they were preachy I thought they were militant I thought they needed to get a sense of humor I was like vegans for goodness sake crack a smile the world's not that bad right cows produce milk and hens lay eggs so just chill how our idea was the problem I used to say I'm never gonna be vegan never and then one day I watched a documentary called earthlings now this documentary which is free to watch on YouTube talks about all the different ways that we use animals right so not just for food but for dairy and eggs also for clothing so for leather the fur the entertainment as well like aquariums and circuses the films about 90 minutes an hour 40 it's brutal like it's horrible horrible film and afterwards I was feeling a little bit shell-shocked a little bit distraught at that time I had a hamster called Rupert as a pet I loved Rupert hamster who's the best whenever I felt sad I'd give him some food and I'd watch him eat because hamsters eating is like the most adorable thing you could ever see in your life is it's so cute and so if what you know what I need to give Rupert some food and then I'll feel okay again so I go and I get Rupert I give him some broccoli because Rupert loved broccoli Wow so I've got Rupert he's eating some broccoli he's run on my hands on my arms and I look at Rupert for a moment and I say to myself my goodness Rupert the hamster is a little individual he's got such little personality about him so like I said he loved broccoli he wasn't a big fan of kale he would eat it if it was the only thing he had but he'd look at you like really Hale which I actually am professor die if someone gives me Kayla I might really come on he loved broccoli now I studied German in school only for a couple of years I'm not very good at it but the one thing I remember which I suppose is poignant but also quite sad is mine hamster iske stubborn and it's true Rupert it's a gas turbine which is sad rather sad love to Rupert but Rupert is definitely done anyway but not only that right the only did like broccoli he was also really lazy was Rupert the hamster he was so lazy you know if hamsters you get in the wheels and they run in those wheels like hours and hours or you get them a ball and they like run around in the ball around the room well I bought Rupa ball thinking it'd be the most amazing thing in the world because he could just run around all nights right but actually every time I put him in the ball he'd just take the food from his cheeks and sit down and eat and he wouldn't run anywhere as a Rupert come on it's good for your heart do a bit of cardiovascular work or I'll never run you wouldn't do it wouldn't run anywhere such a little personality I don't look to Rupert at this moment and therefore I recognise so much in Rupert but blesses all right he's not the most intelligent animal that's ever walked this planet right he's amazing he's not the most intelligent so if I recognise so much in Rupert so many attributes traits and qualities then I have to by default recognise them in the pigs the cows the Sheep the chickens all the animals who are conventionally exploited for me and if I would hate for someone else to hurt Rupert or to kill Rupert's then what right do I have to inflict pain suffering and death and animals who are alike in every single way that matters I couldn't quite fathom that and that's why I know what vegan but I was a quiet vegan though at the beginning I was very quiet I was really afraid I've been labeled as preachy which is you can tell I'm not too worried about now right like but at the time yeah that's a good one that was no I'm not worried about any more people going preach all the time I get it I do talk a lot right but at the time I was really worried about it and so I was at university I just had some friends my friends were lovely they weren't vegan and I didn't ask them anything about it I went into University I get my lentils didn't say words but then one day I watched this documentary on Netflix called cowspiracy now cowspiracy talks about all the different ways the eating animal products is bad for our environment and so I was at university with some climate focused friends they were very concerned about climate change used to talk a lot about it as well what you know what gonna go into university I'm gonna tell my friends to watch cowspiracy they're gonna watch it and then we're gonna be one big freakin family right I will eat lentils and talk about animals and stuff right I'll be well just be so cool wishful thinking of course spoiler alert that did not happen right so I went to university the next day and I'm like you guys watch this documentaries cowspiracy is on Netflix or change your life it's about the environment and eating animals and they're a bit like well whatever this one girl Rihanna she wasn't really my friend well just put it out there but she was listening to the conversation she says to me she says Ed's I think it's great that you're vegan I think that's so wonderful I just really like that you're vegan ed but you know as a via but pepper has a vegan right you consume soy milk and eat tofu and actually so farming is destroying the Amazon rainforest and so you want to talk about the environment but you're the one who's responsible for deforestation in the Amazon I took a step back for a moment therefore is this true it's this true I've never heard this before I've never heard this sometimes non vegans called vegan soy boys don't they to try and insult them but I actually a mr. sorry but I'm proud of that like that's not an insult to me and so I'm thinking to myself Here I am a self-proclaimed soy boy and soy farming is destroying the Amazon well hang on a minute does that mean that I'm responsible for that deforestation I don't feel good I went home and I googled it right if in doubt Google it and says did I googled it is soya farming bad for the Amazon rainforest lo and behold soy farming is devastating for the Amazon rainforest is one of the major causes of deforestation in the Amazon and these wildfires as well but the more I researched about it the more I kept seeing these same figures which is that up to 85% of all the soya those grown is fed to livestock animals and that 85% is grown in the Amazon which means that the problems related to soy farming in the Amazon rainforests because of the animals that we consume there's actually an expression he says if you want to protect the Amazon from soya farming eat soya because the soy that's made for vegan products is grown in places like Europe or North America for people who live in North America and so actually consuming soy milk and tofu isn't a problem with soy farm in the Amazon either paradoxically it's the animals that we consume books a lot of their feed is soil to put this into perspective in the UK according to something called the Center for agricultural strategy which is actually an animal agriculture think-tank it's pro animal agriculture it says that in the UK we import 1.8 3 million tonnes of soya every single year from the Amazon rainforest to feed our livestock animals some figures say it's 2.5 million tonnes of soya every year into the UK just for livestock animals now to put that into perspective that's between 900 thousand hectares or 1.5 million hectares of the Amazon rainforest that's used just for soya farming just for the livestock animals in the UK wherever I was small nation Germany in size is substantially bigger in agriculture pretty big as well and I found really distressing about the implantation of soya for livestock feed is that actually just over 50% of all the soya that is imported from the Amazon rainforest is fed to chickens for their meat and for their eggs because soya is one of the biggest elements of their feet which is kind of strange isn't it because when we talk about animal agriculture in the environment we get hung up on red meat don't we cows and sheep and of course they play a huge part in this as well and a lot of people will stop eating red meat and start eating chickens and maybe more eggs because it's seen as a more sustainable alternative but actually when it comes to the deforestation for soya in the Amazon the biggest culprit as an animal are the chickens for those free-range eggs that we use or that chicken breast that we like to cook up or that fried chicken that I used to eat she's kind of alarming is now so I kept researching and it kept digging and actually last year a study came out this study was a 5-year study made by the University of Oxford it looked at 40,000 farms in 119 countries all around the world is considered the most comprehensive analysis ever conducted exploring the relationship between farming and the environment it's published in a journal called science which is one the most highly regarded scientific journals in the world they looked at the 40 major food items that make up 90% of our global diet both animal-based foods plant-based foods one of the biggest things it looked at was land usage because when we talk about agriculture land usage is one of the biggest problems associated with the environmental impact of Agriculture it said that globally eighty-three percent of all agricultural land is given to animal agriculture eighty three percent which sounds like a lot doesn't it but actually just over 50% of all the crops that we grow fed to animals anyway a 1/4 of the Earth's total useable land surface is given to grazing animals and of course you have the site's the farms themselves where the animals are contained with it and so then you see how she racks up pretty quickly that percentage eighty three percent now that's a western figure as well that's not just about say America or the cost Western that's a European figure in the UK our Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs called Defra our government body says that between 80 to 85 percent of all agriculture in the UK is given to animals that's what our government says 80 to 85 percent the staggering amount isn't it a huge amount of lines given to something but it's not really about the amount of landis used it's about the output that comes as a consequence of that land usage because if animals providing us with that amount of sustenance you could justify it but of course they're not in fact this five-year study said they're globally only around 39 percent of our protein intake comes from animals and as little as 20 percent about calorie intake comes from animal products which means we've got a huge disparity haven't we between the amount of land being used and the amount of product that's been given to us as a consequence now the problem with clearing line for agriculture is exactly that it's clearing land which means that animal agriculture globally is the leading cause of biodiversity loss because the leading cause of things like deforestation and habitat destruction because to make way for lands for farming you have to destroy the land to make it suitable for farming to begin with which means we destroy huge amounts of forests and woodlands to make way for agriculture now the problem of destroying forests and woodlands is that trees absorb carbon through a process called photosynthesis right when we destroy them that carbon gets released back into the atmosphere again think of all the wildfires they've been happening this year though a wildfires in Siberia during this summer now by the end of the wildfires it was reported that those wildfires were responsible for emitting as much carbon into the atmosphere as a country like Sweden emits in an entire year so just one of those wildfires is equal to the emissions of one westernized developed country which is alarming isn't it and you think about all the other wildfires that been taking the place around the world and of course carbon in the atmosphere drives temperatures up the higher the temperature the risk of more droughts and more wildfires more wildfires more carbon more carbon higher temperatures high temperatures more wildfires more wildfires more carbon it's a scary self-perpetuating cycle it's what we need desperately is more trees isn't it more woodlands more forest limbs and you know we destroyed so much of it yes of course for cities and for roads but primarily for agriculture over 80% of them being used for animals which I find quite alarming I was brought up in a place called Yorkshire which is the north of England now in Yorkshire we're very traditional we're very stoic we're very proud to be where we where we're from I am NOT I don't like that place very much my stepdad calls it God's own County God's a County that tells you about the the narcissism of Yorkshire people sometimes we're quite nice as well of course but I used to get through some of us I used to get driven around Yorkshire and it's called the Yorkshire Dales there the area surrounding where I was raised and I used to get told look at the beauty of the auction dales Wow the landscape is something to be so proud of but actually all the yorkshire dales is is fields everywhere fields as far as the eye can see with cows cattle sheep that's it we have destroyed so much land for something so needless and not only that but the problem is animals are one of the biggest culprits in greenhouse gas emissions the most conservative estimate that exists is that 14.5 percent of all global emissions come from animal agriculture that's the most conservative estimates and yet that most conservative estimate still says the animal agriculture is responsible for more emissions than all the planes cars motorbikes boats combined more than all of the transportation system in the world combined and that's the conservative estimates so we take away something so important like natural dense vegetation woodlands and forest lands and we replace it with something so devastating animals who produce greenhouse gases take up so much of our land because they require so much food as well and also around 25 to one-third or to 33 percent of all global fresh water is given to animals now scientists in the future say we might have wars over water if we're having wars over water do you think it's really responsible for us to give anywhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of all our available water to livestock animals something's got to give at some point now by 2050 there could be 10 billion humans but also by 2050 some areas of the world won't be habitable because things like lack of food lack of water extreme weather conditions like typhoons droughts wildfires cyclones which means that people be forced to move we call them climate refugees in the future we're talking tens maybe even hundreds of millions of climate refugees as you've heard people living near to the equator you can't live there anymore and they have to move where are they going to move to the northern hemisphere where land is more fertile and resource is more abundant and where it's safer to live Europe North America but will have less food less water and more people which means we need to be as efficient as possible with the resources that we have this five-year study from the University of Oxford they said that if we shifted to a plant-based diet we could free up the amount of agricultural land we need by 75% three-quarters that allows us to do a couple of different things there was a study released from Harvard Law School it's called eating away at climate emissions and it said if you took just one third of the croplands in the UK that's used to feed the animals so just 33 percent of the land where we grow crops to feed animals in the UK alone you could produce enough fruits and vegetables to feed every single person the UK there are five portions of fruit and vege every single day all year round with just one third of the land he said in the US if you took all of the croplands used to feed the animals in just the US alone you could grow enough human edible crops on that land to feed another 320 million people just with the land in the US where we grow crops to feed to animals amazing amazing but also there's something else we could do at this land if we had it spare we could do something called rewilding I think rewilding is such an exciting prospect rewilding is is inherently as it sounds you allow the land to return to its natural state or as much as it can possibly return you use the word natural of course rather loosely but return it to a state which it used to look like and so for us living in places like Germany or the UK that's forests that's Woodlands that's even temperate rain forests because temperate rainforests can be found across Europe restore that land you can do a couple of different things firstly more trees more woods we can sequester the carbon from the atmosphere take some of that carbon out which is desperately what we need to do we need less carbon in the atmosphere so let's make healthy woodlands and forests loans and healthy soils that can do exactly that we can also do something called trophic rewilding which is where we introduce animals natural animals back into those landscapes because indigenous animals have always played a fundamental role in maintaining the ecology of where they're found for instance in America sew-on bought our cattle ranch I think it was in Montana although I might be wrong and/or the cattle gone instead he introduced or trophic leery wild it a herd of bison because bison are indigenous to many areas in the United States and so he doesn't kill the Bison they're not there to be farmed and to be killed they're there because they help balance the ecology of the area now bison their hooves like scissors so when they walk through the grass they cut the grass and who cuts in the grass encourages carbon to be sequestered into the soil which is amazing wonderful so he could trophic leery wild animals back into these landscapes and all of a sudden were helping balance the ecology even more even more excitingly you have something called forest farms because of course natural vegetation produces food on its own farmers can rewire their land we can encourage them to do that through subsidies and also they can sell the produce that's grown in the forests they have to a localised community thus reducing the amount of food that we import from other countries as well there's so much we can do I find it exhilarating but one thing has got a gift because sometimes people say to me but how can we feed everyone on a vegan diet in the world but really the question should be flipped there should be what how can we feed everyone in the world on an animal-based diet well they take it so many resources and our world as a population is growing constantly right now animal agriculture takes up 45% of the Earth's total ice-free land right now currently we're gonna have another 2 billion people in 30 years and less land available to us it's not feasible for us to continue this way something has to change this 5-year study the most comprehensive ever conducted on the matter concluded by saying the single biggest thing that we can do as individuals is to adopt a vegan lifestyle the single biggest thing now of course is a society as cultures we have to demand change from our governments but we also have to work in tandem to change together as individuals as well because this fight against climate change isn't something that's gonna be resolved by just asking others to do the hard work it requires us to do things as well within our own life and as individuals the biggest thing that we can do is change what we eat take out the animals and replace them with plants that's the most fundamentally powerful thing that we can do to impact our planet in a positive way now climate change is a social justice issue what I mean by that is it currently and it will continue to do so it affects those who have done least to cause it the most severely which means is a human rights issue at animal rights issue as well as a planetary issue it's existential in threat and in size but we could do something about it every single day by looking our individual actions and I think that's empowering because often we feel helpless don't we we look at famine we look at a bowl of crises or health crises around the world we look at war and we feel that we can't make a positive impact can't do anything substantial but what we consume every single day is something we have full control over we have autonomy self control to make those decisions and thus the consequence of veganism the positive consequence is something that has to be discussed even more ferociously because it is something we have direct control over the reality is to talk about climate change without mentioning animal agriculture is to talk about lung cancer and not mentioned smoking the two are fundamentally and intrinsically linked to one another and so we have to have those conversations and if we have been told there is something that we can actually manage mitigate by looking at our plates then it has to be a conversation to be had let's move it up let's move it up because it's bigger than just that of course it's bigger than just the environment is bigger than just looking at climate change it's bigger than that the responsibility we have as individuals far surpasses just the positive benefits that we can have on our environment the environment aside is something more intrinsically linked to veganism isn't there which is that ethical moral foundation of the way that we live now I've been having conversations about veganism with people for quite some time and there's always a selection of similar things that are said to me I want the first things that's said to me and I quite like this one is people say I really respect you for being vegan I think it's great you know I love that we live in a world where you can make that choice I think that's wonderful and I actually think that it's really really wonderful of you to actually respect me as well because I'm respecting you and the choice that you've made so I just ask that you respect my choice to not be vegan after all it is a personal choice and I don't like it when vegans try and force their views right I think it's quite interesting and I actually agree with part of that because it is a personal choice isn't it what we choose to consume is entirely up to us we can go into little or Aldi and we can buy a steak we can buy chicken breast we can buy salmon we can buy tuna we can buy lamb we can buy chickpeas we can buy black beans we can buy tofu we can buy a vegan meat substitute we've got a whole spectrum of choice right but then the question is well such something be considered acceptable simply because it's something we have a choice over what I really mean by those every decision we make as a personal choice isn't it every choice you decided to come tonight that was a personal choice unless you're vegan Partners dragged you here in which case maybe it wasn't right I know there's a few people out there probably right but everything we do fundamentally is a personal choice so let's say for example I leave tonight and everything into myself I'm a little bit low on cash right so I'm gonna go and I'm gonna mug someone I'm gonna take their wallet off of them right I've personally chosen to do that and as a glaring difference isn't that mugging someone is obviously illegal it's a criminal offense but buying a steak from Aldi is legal so there's a big difference there but then the question becomes well dis legality equal morality you know it's something considered acceptable just because the law says it is we can look for our history can't we to think of many situations many industries many actions many behaviors many things we used to do that were legally allowed but we're certainly not moral right and in fact if we if we apply that night notion that legality equals morality that means that the legal systems in every individual country will be moral as a result but we look around the world we see many things that happen that are legally allowed but morally are abhorrent legality should equal morality but it doesn't and it never has a personal choice therefore it doesn't mean that it's simply morally justified because we have that personal choice and actually I think every belief system every philosophical foundation every religion every ideology every lifestyle should be challenged and scrutinized especially those ones that is so ingrained that we just consider them to be normal everything should be challenged and scrutinized we should always dig deeper because by digging deeper we actually discover how we feel about certain things just blindly accept something because we've always done it in people around us do it it's so dangerous so so dangerous so I think we should scrutinize everything veganism included in that challenge every lifestyle philosophy religion belief system because I think to do that is to show a great sign of respect to ask each other difficult questions about the way that we live is ultimately very respectful because it's to say I believe that you have the intellectual and emotional maturity to be able to question yourself even if doing so is uncomfortable and not very pleasant I think it shows a great deal of respect for us to look at each other and have polite conversations what we dig deeper about things that we just commonly accept is being normal okay and what about forcing views now I couldn't do this even if I wanted to and I definitely don't want to but I cannot follow you all home tonight right I can't make you go into a supermarket make you buy some tofu make you take it home make you cook it watch you eat it and then say told you it's not that bad right and honest it's not it's nice some tofu is terrible some it's great right like okay I'll accept that one I can't do that when you leave today what you do from this point on is entirely up to you you have that choice but think about this let's say we buy a steak from a supermarket when we buy that steak we demand they're an animal have their throat cut and be killed what could be more forceful they're making someone have their life taken from them for our belief the belief that meat tastes nice and so I want to eat it what could be more forceful than that vegans can be preachy that's for sure they can be militant they can be loud but they can never force you to live differently but when we buy products we do force things to happen to others and for those animals it's a life mostly of suffering and pain but ultimately always death what could be more forceful than that taste right is the big one isn't it people always say to me look the heads right I think it's great you're vegan but like I just really like steak and cheese cheese everyone loves cheese don't they and everyone tells me and I could never go vegan I just love the taste of cheese too much right there was like you must have never liked cheese because if you couldn't give it up if you liked it all right well here's the thing right I have never met a vegan to this day right you would ask the question hey you know why you vegan they say well to be honest I thought bacon steak cheese fried chicken Domino's Pizza I thought they were disgusting right I've never met that person I don't think that person exists the reason that we change and go vegan isn't because we stop enjoying how these things taste we create some sort of scale in our head right some sort of imaginary scale and on one side you place taste right because that's the justification taste and on the other side we place of life because when we eat these products the consequence is that someone's life is taken even for dairy and eggs lives are taken for those products and so that's the question isn't it what has high value taste our life that was life for me there's some people plus some people say taste what we say taste or actually saying is that sensory pleasure provides a moral justification for our actions because taste is a sense I like how it tastes it provides my sense with pleasure but if we apply a moral arguments they have to be applied so more consistently in two different environments and so for that one it's quite simple isn't it we say can we think of any situations any actions any behaviors where someone feels sensory pleasure at the expense of someone else we can think of many and then we say is that action justified simply because someone feels sensory pleasure and we say well of course not what does that matter what matters is is the victim but how come when the animals are the victims and we're the oppressor in this environment why does it not matter then why can we justify it by saying well I don't care what happens to them because I like how they taste why does that justify all these things when we don't apply that way of thinking to any of a situation in our life it's late disingenuous we reach a point where we live in a state of contradictory notion don't we well we use one argument to justify one thing but we can't apply it to other areas where it could also be used to justify what happens now sometimes people say to me they say add this vegan thing right it's come too far it's gone too far right I'll go vegan the day that you convince a lion to go vegan right because lions are animals and I am an animal and so if lions can eat meat well then so can i right it's true Lions of course eat meat they zebras the gazelles they do so because they're obligate carnivores meaning they have to to survive we don't have that excuse but moreover why would we base our morality on the actions of wild animals that seems slightly farcical to me Lions of course kill each other imagine if first son murdered another human and they went to court and the judge said what's your defense they said well Lions kill over lions right and lions are animals now I'm an animal so if they can kill each other then so can I right and the judge goes case dismissed right off you go like you're free nonsense nonsense right because we don't base our morality on values on the actions of wild animals as dangerous so again we can't use lions is a role model for how we should live in a contemporary quote/unquote civilized society but then sometimes people say they see Ed you're very ungrateful because you wouldn't be alive today if your ancestors didn't eat meat your ancestors were hunters as well as governors as if they didn't hunt well you wouldn't have been born very true my ancestors did hunt as well as gather and it was probably instrumental to me being born today that they did but again my ancestors did a whole host of terrible things that I would never want to allow in a modern society why do base our actions on the the behaviors of primitive Neanderthals who obviously did a whole host of different things we've evolved so much as a society we can't transgress to our past to look towards what we should do in the future moreover right there was a plane crash in the Andes in the 1970s survivors of the plane crash survived because they cannibalized on the passengers who had died in that moment we'd say that cannibalism was a morally justifiable act I have no problem with it in that scenario but we wouldn't say that cannibalism was a justifiable act in everyday society the same way I feel that if we have to eat animals for our survival you can justify that out but in our world where we live Germany the UK we don't have to do it and so it becomes very difficult to justify something when it's needless in that sense so we move on a little bit further and we keep digging a little bit deeper now of course as humans we are intellectually dominant physically dominant as well in terms of what we can do and now intellectual and physical dominance really gives you two options doesn't it the first option is you can have like a might makes right approach what I mean by that is you use your dominant to impose some sort of áfourá terian rule over others I don't think for a second we can deny that what we've chosen so far is the form of all four tarian ISM over these animals we literally breed them into existence when we want them we assign them an ear tag of a numerical value so we deny them of their personality of their individualism we take away any right to be acknowledged as a sentient being and instead we refer to them as commode tee's its livestock I mean the term livestock is interesting in itself you go to a supermarket the shelves are full of stock these animals we refer to as livestock shelf stock that just happens to be alive and such an inconvenience that we have to kill them right we deny them the right to be acknowledged as autonomous beings we take away their autonomy from them could be more authoritarian we need to lay them forcibly impregnate them take their babies away from them exploit them and then ultimately take their life from them when we want every action every part of their life is dictated to them by us it couldn't be more for a terraeum than that but we have another option of course without intellectual and physical dominance we can do something else can't wait that is we can act somewhat as stewards for the world now I'm not trying to be childish naive I'm not saying that by being stewards we have to run around and skip down the road with pigs and cows and cuddle in these rewilding forests right that's not what I'm saying to be a steward doesn't mean you have to do anything for this planet other than well off the animals other than just not hurt them by being vegan is the ultimate passive action in that sense because it requires you to not do something to someone whereas to be non vegan is an active action it requires you to harm others for the way that you live and so actually being a steward for this planet doesn't mean we have to do anything extreme or radical we do the opposite we stop doing something that we should consider has been extreme because we kill 75 billion land animals every single year an estimate says somewhere between one and two point seven trillion marine animals every single year and for what because we like how they taste because we've always done it because it's convenient because it's habit but the destruction and suffering those actions caused should be considered extreme when we live in a world where where we have alternatives and abundance of other options that we can choose that's why I think sometimes people call vegans extreme sometimes when I talk about the environment people say but you know going vegan still seems a bit extreme to me for the environment and that's because climate change isn't necessarily tangible and the suffering of animals isn't directly in front of us and so we can kind of take us back those degrees of separation allow us to detach from the action but the increasing proximity of climate change will also decrease the idea that veganism is extreme pretty quick the more we feel the heat so to speak of climate change the quicker we'll think actually you know what that totally sounds quite nice right about now yeah they'll reach that point when we cross over and I think that's really important to note that notion of what we consider to be radical extreme in a modern world is potentially slightly paradoxical when you look at the damage of what the supposedly normal way of life actually causes in the end now I want to talk really briefly we're talking I've gone over 10 minutes or so okay we're good sometimes I talk and talk I look at the time I might oh my god right how do we get here right got a bit more time we buy things in supermarkets that have nice labels on them don't we nice labels things like free-range eggs pretty pretty enticing aren't they but one thing that we often hear is the word humane right often people say to me look ed I actually agree with you right I think halal and kosher slaughter is barbaric I can't believe that we still do religious slaughter in this way where the animals just have their throats cut that's disgusting which is why I buy animals who have been killed humanely all right that's interesting isn't it we applied the word humane next to the action slaughter but we have to define what the word humane means now let's open up an imaginary for Soros right fine fine the word humane and now the other words that go with the word humane will be things like compassion benevolence kindness so if we use the word humane next to the action slaughter we have to use the word compassion or benevolence or kindness and so really the question is how do you compassionately or benevolently take the life of someone who doesn't have to die and who doesn't want to die what I mean by that is animals don't willfully walk onto the kill floor of a slaughterhouse they don't present their throats for the slaughterman to cut it they're forced there against their will and so we refer to something has been humane when it's non-consensual needless and results in death now to me the act of taking someone's life for no reason could be the opposite of compassionate or benevolent or kind and therefore must be the opposite of humane as well as humane slaughter is an oxymoron what I mean by that is the two-word contradict each other it's a lie within a phrase it doesn't exist now also let's bear in mind that the humane way to kill pigs across the European Union is in a gas chamber where two or three pigs are loaded into a metal cage that's dropped into an abyss that's filled with co2 the aversive mixture of co2 suffocates them for about 30 seconds until they die but it also burns the moisture behind their eyes and in their throats causing them to scream as they die and you can watch this online it's not pleasant but it's there and it happens we call that humane or compassionate or benevolent because they get to die together wow what a mercy right because normally with pigs we electrically stun them and then hang them upside down and cut their throats but this time they get to die in twos or fries and we call that compassionate so when we use the word humane that's what we're actually using the word humane for gassing animals to death it doesn't sound like compassion to me to do that to someone a sentient being now another thing that often we hear is about the dairy industry isn't it in the UK there's a supermarket called Tesco I actually really like Tesco I'm a big fan of Tesco they just released an advert which was really powerful of a TV about a young girl who wants to stop eating animals but also they do a lot of good vegan food I went to vegan food as you can tell right but Tesco's also do this thing down every dairy aisle first of all this is a hundred percent British which i think is absolutely nonsensical isn't it's like oh great we exploit animals in our country so hey everything's amazing right but also I'll hold on to that idea but also we say happy cows produce happy milk well first of us happy milk right I'm trying to work out this this milk this full of emotion there's just like bursting out of the others like so pleased to see daylight you can't believe this look right happy milk right but you see that and it reassures you right happy cows booze I would love to pay for a cow to be happy that's incredible that's what you reads but actually what does that mean what does that she look like now in the UK were rated a for welfare I mentioned that hundred percent British thing because in Britain we are so proud of the way we treat animals we do in Britain we go look at America Oh chlorinated chicken that's disgusting the way they treat animals look at China oh I can't believe how terrible is in China they're barbaric to animals in China or Russia woof bloody hell Russia's bad isn't it for animals but not in the UK or we treat our animals so good here they're actually privileged to be born here right that's what we say I know it's the same in Germany because I've had people say it to me but we treat animals different here if something bad was happening the government would step in we have laws to protect animals right abuse is very uncommon if it happens the farms get shut down right we don't abuse animals because we have laws protecting animals that's what we're told okay the UK is rated a for animal welfare which actually means our arrogance is somewhat legitimate because only the UK New Zealand Austria and Switzerland are rated a for animal welfare which means that nobody does it as good as we do right Germany is rated B oh come on guys be really a yeah right but what does that actually look like a the dairy industry everything I described now is standard legal practice this is so important standard legal industry wide practice in an a-rated welfare scheme this is how it's done the best of the best now dairy cows and mammals right which means they only produce milk to feed their children now I used to think that cows ate grass and then out came milk right you see cows grazing you think I'll submit this measurement but I should that's not true of course cows are mammals they have to give birth to lactate which means that dairy farmers will artificially inseminate dairy cows every single year more or less this is first and of course by acquiring bull semen because you need semen to impregnate and now think about how that's done think of how someone gets semen from a bowl you're absolutely right that's how it's done and it's really really weird isn't it how creepy is that imagine if you saw someone doing that to an animal right that should be illegal to do that in fact it is we call it bestiality which is technically illegal but when someone gets paid to do it all of a sudden it's fine no it's really really weird and now they've the semen from the ball they take it to the dairy farm they have to put it inside the cow of course and so they restrain the cow and like a metal cage these metal cages are used for things like vaccines you know antibiotics for some like bovine TB jobs to see if the animals are ill and they're also used for the insemination process so the cows are restrained the farmer then places his arm inside the anus of the dairy cow you'll hold her cervix in place through the lining of the anus he then takes the bull semen injects the bull semen through her vagina and into her cervix so we pay farmers and people to take semen from a bull and also to penetrate female cows as well accounts now the cow's gestation is about nine months similar to that of humans and now once she gives birth the calf only needs the first feed from their mother the first feed has something called colostrum in it which is full of antibodies the antibodies are essential to the calf's health but once the calf's had the first feed any more milk that's taken from the mother is a waste of milk right because cows produce milk for us to drink right and so if the baby's drinking their mother's milk then that doesn't make sense right because the whole thing is we drink our mother's milk we wean off of our mother and then we wean onto someone else's mother it just happens that this is someone else's mother is for entirely different species and we'll weaned onto this other species breast for about six your seventy years right that sounds right doesn't it doesn't sound weird at all sometimes I say to people let's see I'll go and pasture a field with a dairy herd did you ever get thirsty just pull over go on you know what milks a little bit expensive sometimes in the supermarket I can get some free more right now just have a little drink no strange now what about I say if you were driving past a dairy or dairy herd and you saw someone else underneath the cows drinking from them what would you think about that I would think that was really weird but what is the difference we buy in a supermarket it comes in the bottle but you might as well just get it from the cow himself because you're paying someone else to do that process save yourself some money go have a drink yourself from the fountain right no that's so weird we wouldn't want to do that right okay so the cow gives birth the calf has the first feet and then the baby is taken away from the mother because the Markov the mob milk the calf drinks the less milk the farmer can sell so the calf in an a-rated welfare scheme will be taken to something we call a solitary confinement ouch these are hutches they're maybe two meters long one and a half meters wide a Pharma can legally house the newborn calf in that hutch for the first eight weeks of their life first eight weeks that's obviously nothing from their mother no maternal love or feeding has no exercise there's no companionship no carbs are basically big dogs they like to run and jump and play and we confine them in this small hutch for the first eight weeks of their life legally right now the male's are useless to the dairy industry producing milk as a female reproductive process of course and so the males will make no money for the dairy herds of the dairy farmers so a few things could happen sometimes they're raised and killed for veal the veal markets not too substantially big anymore sometimes they're sold into the beef herd we race for their flesh but the calves born as the dairy industry are a different breed to the car's born into the beef industry which means actually for many farmers it's not profitable for them to raise the calf up and so one of the cheapest things that they can do the best things for profits is to shoot the newborn calves in the UK 90,000 male dairy calves are shot in the head almost immediately after birth because there's no money in keeping them alive right the mothers will be hooked up to milking machines two or three times a day pretty much every single day after about 4 to 6 years depending they are taken to a slaughterhouse where they have a bolt put in the head a knife pulled across their throat remember that we can call them happy cows we can say happy cows produce happy milk but that's what the process looks like standard legal practice in an a-rated welfare scheme the best in the world and then we call these cows happy do not makes me really angry actually right now in the European Union there's a debate going on about whether or not you can call things like oat milk milk or vegan burgers burgers I think in Germany you can't call oat milk milk anyway already right and they say the reason for that is because it's misleading to the consumer right so the big old European Union's gotta come and help us because we're so stupid right we walk in to Lidl and we see some of this as out mill can we go out milk milk oats right and because we're set with sews you know the general public the consumers were so stupid we buy it because we see the word milk and we're so dumb right so we take it home and we pour it on our cereal and we start eating it and we go this is a milk right vegans dumb if only someone could come and protect us from always misleading labeling this going on right so don't worry the European Union is going to help us they're going to ban us from saying that milk can be called milk if it's made from oats or than a burger can be called a burger it's made from mushrooms because we're so silly but do you think it's crazy right it's misleading for the consumers to say that oat milk is milk but you know what it's not misleading for the consumers to say that cows are happy when we take their babies away from them to say that cows are happy when we bolt them in the head and hang them upside down to cut their throat that's not misleading that's fine don't worry about that these cows are happy we're just forcibly impregnating them and exploiting them don't milk though oh what a travesty that is it is so insane the system that we live in that this is what has been debated right now whilst millions billions of animals have been exploited and we refer to them as happy or we killed them in gas chambers and say it's humane and that's fine right that's not misleading at all we look at free-range hens don't we now used to buy free-range eggs because I thought that meant the hens lived a good life in fact even before as vegetarian and I bacon and steak and cow's milk and chicken and everything in my basket if I saw anyone we've caged eggs I thought that they were a monster I was like who could be so cruel to animals you're buying caged eggs how dare you I thought it was a horrible thing because I thought the difference was maybe 50 60 cents or whatever between caged eggs and free-range meaning between enslavement and freedom we see a box of free-range eggs we put our ideals of freedom onto that box of eggs now freedom to us means living the life that we want to live it means doing the things that come naturally to us whatever that means the things that we want but it means living a life about pain suffering fear and exploitation we see that box box of free-range eggs we see those hens must have lived a good life they must have done the things that come naturally to them they must have lived without pain suffering fear and exploitation but is that actually true now free-range hens are born in hatcheries as all egg laying hens are caged free-range organic the robot in hatcheries also males are born in hatcheries as well males are useless to the egg industry because producing eggs is a female reproductive process they're also not the same type of chicken that we race for meat the chickens that we raised her meat that we call broilers have been raised to reach slaughter age in just 41 days they've been selectively bred that way they reach slaughter age so quickly that they die from organ failure the hearts give out they can't support their weight on their legs and millions every single year die on their backs from starvation first because they can't walk and reach food and water points the male chicks in the egg industry that what happened to them so they're completely useless there's no money in there for them and so every single year around the world tens of billions probably actually hundreds of billions of these animals are killed almost immediately as soon as they're born by being thrown in a macerator which grinds them up alive or into a gas chamber where they gasp to death again males killed because there's no money in keeping them alive the free-range hens will be D beat but had their beaks cut off so they can't peck each other they're then taken to the barns now in the UK a free-range egg farmer can legally house 16,000 birds per barn which means he can legally house nine birds per square meter of space per square metre 9 birds free-range right now of course I have to be honest you have to have an outside area but many of the hens won't reach the outside area because of the way the pecking orders exists in the size of the bonds but anyway 9 birds per square meter of space that's what we call free-range now egg-laying hens produce eggs for about 72 weeks of their life year and a half 18 months at that point that egg production starts to decline there's no money in keeping them alive anymore because they're not producing enough eggs so they're all taken to a slaughterhouse where they're shackled by their feet dragged through an electrified water bath and then over a rotating blades before into the scalding tanks with that boiled free-range freedom that's what we constitute is being free 72 weeks of life in a barn where they can be legally housed nine of them square meter of space then ultimately be killed by being hung upside down and having a blade pulled across their throat free range again these labels are there to fool us into buying something if we knew the truth about we'd probably think differently let's do abandon some bacon and so it's in hi welfare bacon alright it says this bacon comes from a pig who screened in a gas chamber as they were killed we probably got more tofu doesn't sound that weird anymore right yeah or cheese is a good one is it because beacon cheese often seen as being weird right but let us say that you buy this camembert it says this camembert came from a mother cow whose baby was taken away from her who actually came from an animal who was penetrated by the farmer it is now in a slaughterhouse about to have their throat codes all of a sudden beacon cheese doesn't sound that weird does it not to me anyway coconut oil um ok coconut oil and cheese actually but what I'm not ok with this huge amounts of suffering exploitation because if the color of milk actually reflected what the industry looked like it would be red tainted by the blood and the suffering of the animals who had killed the infanticide of all these babies who were killed simply because there's no money keeping them alive ok let me finish it here wait a meal right one meal three meals a day those meals last about 15 minutes each right well probably go get some dinner after this we had some lunch early today lunch actually sometimes we eat very quickly grab and go don't you buy a sandwich maybe it's a chicken sandwich we eat in a few minutes we've got to get back to work we eat that real quick let's say 15 minutes is the average okay 15 minutes for a meal but that meal could have cost someone their entire life their life taken from them their one existence gone for something we eat and then move on forget about I could say what did you have for lunch six days ago what did you have for dinner 12 days ago off the top of your head probably not much of an idea right but that lunch and that dinner could have paid for someone or will pay for someone else in the future to live a life of suffering where they're mutilated and then killed their life gone to 15 minutes that's it all of that suffering for what for that for that sandwich that we eat and then just move on with how do we justify that that's the question I often try and keep coming back to how do we justify what we do to others how do we justify living in a system where 75 billion land animals are killed every single year up to two point seven trillion marine animals not to mention the environmental degradation is caused by the industry and we're told the single biggest thing that we can do as individuals to mitigate or reduce our impacts the environment is to go vegan so how do we justify not doing it then considering everything that happens when we buy these products everything that happens from the whole chain of command that leads up to us eating it 15 minutes everything that comes before it consume and then we move on ask that question don't no taste or life earlier it's actually not a very fair question because when you go vegan you're not even really giving up taste there are some products you can't always get great vegan versions of but for the most part we have for you conversions of almost anything now burgers of course sausages that beyond me bratwurst is crazy it's so good so actually it's not really a question of taste or life it's a question of taste or life and taste from a different source a plant-based source because that's really what's at stake here going vegan doesn't mean you have to give anything up not even taste you just change where you get those flavors and the satisfaction from so what do we have to lose from trying it that's always a question isn't it why don't give it a go what do we have to lose because we have so much to gain or importantly through us changing others have so much to gain as well so maybe we say to ourselves well how do I justify this you know what moral justification can I use I acknowledge it's habitual I should have really matter I acknowledge that I've always done it and those before me have always done it but what difference does that make when we look towards the future I acknowledge it tastes nice but my taste is it worth more than the animal's life and of course you're suffering they're forced to injure yes animals eat other animals but they do so out of necessity but I don't do that so why do I do what I do and if I can't think of a good enough reason to justify that then watch you maybe I have to say to myself do I have to make a change yes for myself and for aligning my morals with my actions but also for others those humans who have been negatively impacted by climate change my children and grandchildren but of course all those animals as well okay let's finish you that thank you so much for listening I appreciate your time question is can I comment on how healthy or unhealthy a vegan diet is I can comment yes what well to say right is there's a couple of ways of looking at this isn't that a lot of sometimes people say to me look edible you do this big talk right and you don't talk about like the health benefits of going vegan you know like how it reduces heart disease type 2 diabetes how you can be a strength athlete like we've seen in movies like the game changes on Netflix why didn't talk about that um for me I don't talk about that really because III don't think it's necessary to the conversation about why we should be vegan but the foundation of what we have to understand on or to learn really is we're not being plant based is nutritionally adequate for us to live and if that's it then anything positive is really just a bonus but it shouldn't define wherever I'm not growing tyst by being vegan but let's start at the bottom and start with the bare minimum and then we can work our way up can't we the American Dietetic Association and the British Dietetic Association the American Dietetic Association by the way is the largest body of diet and nutrition professionals in the world it's made up of a hundred thousand dietitians nutritionists and doctors so that organization the British equivalent the NHS Canadian as well I think a whole bunch anyway have categorically stated that a plant-based diet is nutritionally adequate healthy and safe for all stages of life including when we're pregnant when we give birth and we're lactating when we're children all stages of life that's challenging doesn't it because I know in Europe in particular there's a bit of a conversation isn't there about vegan children right and actually it happened because some child's who is vegan died everyone goes oh my goodness a vegan child dies but this obviously proves that veganism is terrible for children well I just no all it proves unfortunately is that someone can be vegan still be an abusive parent right that's fundamentally what it shows because that child was malnourished and abused and so all it means is that that's the case non-vegan children died from being malnourished because of abusive parents and no one says we'll meet the problem the eggs were the problem happens to one vegan child and it's veganism that's the problem it is not seen the wood through the trees it's a selective bias right but when we look at the science nutritionally adequate healthy and safe for all stages of life so that's really the bare minimum isn't it I I need to be really frank actually and say well actually we should all take a bitumen D supplement during winter every single one of us living in Europe vegan non vegan pescetarian reduced our in bed stone no matter what you eat take a vitamin D supplement because we don't get enough sunshine and the majority of people in the world who live where we live a vitamin D deficient and it is instrumental to our body to our mental health take FM and do something right we all should but the other thing on a vegan diet really is about b12 isn't it that's the one that comes up a lot vitamin b12 b12 is a microbe that's grown in soil when animals graze they ingest b12 when we were hunter-gatherers we've got b12 from animals we also got it from plants because plants grow in soil a lot of them anyway as you only ate the plants we get b12 from plants as well came from both sources in a modern agricultural system our plants are sanitized washed and cleaned and so there's no b12 in plants anymore but also over ninety percent of worldwide b12 supplements are sold into the livestock industry most the animals we consume are supplemented with b12 because they're also fed agricultural food this sanitize cleaned processed and therefore there's no b12 in their diet either so the majority of the b12 that we get from animals comes from a supplement anyway now of course if you buy grass-fed pasteurized beef for example there will be b12 in that naturally that's absolutely fine to recognize of course but doesn't justify what we do to animals and plus a pasteurized grass-fed system and environmentally is the absolute worst and almost take up more land they produce more greenhouse gases because they take longer to reach slaughter age and also you get less supply at the end and so even if we switch to an entirely grass-fed food system because we want natural b12 most people wouldn't be able to get it anyway because the supply would decrease so much the price would skyrocket meaning only the rich people could afford it to begin with and so whichever way we look at it in the world that we live in we're going to get b12 from a few different places but most the time we're not going to get it in its natural state for most people right and so there's a few things you can do eat fortified b12 fortified plant foods that have b12 fortified in them what a terrible way of wording that what I mean by that is plant milks yogurts vegan cheese's vegan meats different things like that nutritional yeast which by the way is great nutritional yeast do you think that sounds disgusting right what the hell is that they could give a sexier name that's for sure but nutritionally so it's delicious it's really good b12 right amazing so eat fortified b12 foods I'll take a weekly supplement because you can even get your b12 through animal who's been supplemented or you can take the supplement yourself I think in the u.s. 40 percent of people of b12 deficient you have 40 percent of the population of the u.s. is not vegan so it suggests there's something else at play here so just be aware of that so in terms of like the nutritional safety of it it's scientifically sound all it takes is a little bit of personal responsibility what I like about being vegan is people tell me I'm gonna be sick and malnourished Janelle I'm gonna die really young because I'm vegan I'm not gonna get all these nutrients right and so what that actually encouraged me to do is look everything up become more well researched about nutrients and track what I eat and so before I was vegan I used to eat crap and I was probably deficient in about a dozen different vitamins but no one said to me ed you're eating Domino's pizza every night aren't you worried about your b12 all right no I said that's me I go vegan and I'm eating loads of different foods they got edge you're eating the Whole Foods plant-based diet I'm worried about your b12 like no not anymore I'm not I should have been worried about it ten years ago right but I'm not anymore so I think what I like about veganism is it encourages us to be more aware of what we're eating and so do take personal responsibility learn where you get your nutrients from each of varied diets and keep track of it there's a thing called chronometer you put in the food you eat the amounts you eat and it tells you the nutritional value of your diet it's great if you want to go for you can at the beginning track your food for like eight weeks then you know if you're hitting everything you need to hit and then you're safe and you sound and you're good to go so that's what I say scientifically bare minimum it sounds but actually if you dig deeper look at what Harvard Medical School is saying for example look at what Cornell researchers are saying for example look at what's coming out from Oxford as an example and look at the United Nations look at the World Health Organization you see something better than just the minimum what you see is actually that a plant-based diet can fight in combat many of our leading diseases and illnesses heart disease and type 2 diabetes can be reversed through a plant-based diet the only diet in the world that can reverse those two things and stop them from coming back if we eat Whole Foods plant-based diet and so if there's a lot of research out there there's a group called the NFI they've just a massive thing they've been published in Slovakia's biggest newspaper because in less than a year they have 4,000 patients who are type 2 diabetic and they have over a 90% rate a reversing their type 2 diabetes when they follow this plant-based NFI protocol right science is good it's really really good but that's not the points all we have to acknowledge is that being vegan is enough the fact that it's more than us doesn't really matter the fact that it is enough is what matters to the conversation of why we should be vegan or should we be vegan because everything after that is just bonuses just great you know so yes but is everything do some research take some personal responsibility for your own health be aware that you can be a healthy vegan and you could definitely be an unhealthy vegan I love beyond burgers I think they're amazing but please do not eat them every day does it talk to you that like please don't wait so there's a lot of vegan foods that are great but they're not always healthy so you know enjoy yourself but also be healthy as well if you want to if you want to be there's no pressure eat crap if you want atom we what I want there is no Venus because people should have personal autonomy control of their own bodies and so as long as your actions aren't hurting others in a needless way then do what you want like if you want to eat junk food I I'm say this to myself because I eat crap junk food sometimes right I'm gonna start talking up good question I saw a hand over there yeah there's not a great deal you could do about it doctors on average I don't know if it's the same journey it will be very similar though in the UK they only receive 48 hours of nutrition training they train for five years or very bouts but they get 48 hours nutrition training which means there's 40 hours of just recycled information that we just take for granted you know all meats best for protein you need to eat red meat for iron Molalla so it's not like doctors are just following what they've been told in a very short space of time it was insane about hospitals right is hospital food is some of the worst food you can get right like in America they have McDonald's near hospitals like and we recognize that things like bacon right are a carcinogen don't wait like Bacon's a carcinogen and you can eat bacon on a cancer heart it is distressing to say the least isn't it what can you do about it I'm not sure there is this group called NF I may be reaching out to them is also in America or the physicians for Responsible medicine P decisions the committee physicians for Responsible and what is the abbreviation of that PCRM PCRM in America is headed by someone called dr. Neal Barnard who is fantastic I like dogs Neal Barnard he's great so PCRM reach out to them yeah I think there's the NR a and P CRM and see what they say I'm not much help in that department but you're welcome great question and you have a question yes yep what what do I think about artificially produced me you mean like lab-grown meat yeah I think I've got meat is fantastic in the future we can acquire it in a way that doesn't cause harm to animals I mean up until now we've been taking bovine cast serum not not good not good at all but the technology is passing that point now where we won't need bovine cast serum to produce lab grow meats so lab-grown meat in effect in the future it will not only use 95 percent less water 95 percent less land it'll also be carbon neutral because the whole system can be powered by renewable green energy so there's no it'd be carbon neutral in that sense and it's produced an ethical way so you're not you're not you when you eliminate animal farming and eliminate animal farming eliminate the dangers consequences and suffering involved in that and you get the exact same thing but from from cell culturing so in most respects I think is fantastic but I also I'm so annoyed by it right because it first of all we don't know when it's going to be available it could be 10 years could be 15 years could be 20 years we don't know the people working on it they don't know right it's new technology it's not actually real technology and effect in a commercially viable way yet so we don't know when it's available and I get people that say to me look ok it's like I will stop eating products when I can get lab-grown meat and I'm like well it's all we open for the next what 20 years maybe it's going to carry on the United Nations told us last year that we have 12 years to avoid runaway climate change that was about 18 months ago which means we have 10 and a half years left we've wasted 18 months let's say that it takes 12 years to get lab-grown meat and then obviously lab-grown meats available right yeah hey we can reduce the impact of animal agriculture bow and the United Nations goes well it's too late right well done guys you took too long and so I think that my problem is like we have options available now why do we have to produce the same thing in a laboratory to convince us to do something good there's upsets me it's like go into the supermarket go to where the vegan food is pick it up take it to the cashier scan it pay for it take it home and eat it right and be done with it this this this idea that we have to wait for this new technology I found that really I found it an indictment of our species that were we realize so much inconvenience that we won't even do something a little bit inconvenient which is buy the product that's next to the one that we always buy now I'm not I'm not that sounds overly critical but it's simplistic terms that's what we're asking you know so I think from my lab grab me I think it's amazing I think I changed the world lab-grown meat means that we'll have no vivisection anymore it means that we can do clothing you know we wanted to you know we'll kill animals for clothing anymore we can produce that in a different way it's amazing it will change the world there's no doubt about it but we don't have time to wait so we have to do something now right so yeah amazing but disheartening at the same time that's what I think also like veganism is a moral stance the consumption is a symptom of the problem but the mindset is the root of the problem so it's how we view animals that's the root cause of the issue we view them as being beneath us in a form of subordination we can do what we want them because the way that we view these non-human animals but actually Venus one's about the same actually their right to life is well they're right you know it's not about their life is not ours to exploit and take so it's not about not buying something it's about changing mindsets the primitive lab-grown meat is it doesn't SH - change mindsets who we would spy the same thing we've always bought about how do you think differently about why we're doing it the other arguments assigned to that is actually well some people say change behavior then change the mindset that's actually quite psychologically true you change people's behaviors then their mindsets change afterwards so if we get people buying lab-grown meat then their mindset might change the consequence of buying library meat I don't know anyway yes and no a 98 percent delighted I'm two percent frustrated probably why does the word veganism have such a bad connotation what if but a fantastic question how long have we got let's say two hours greater hmm a few reasons a few reasons we hold what we eat very close to us it's a personal identity makes of our culture's our traditions the many people is heritage its social environments it represents memories a lot of our memories are based around food environments we're consuming and so we hold a lot of personal enjoyment and satisfaction and pleasure from situations involving animal products though those situations aren't completely based around the animal products but animal products are associated within them the thing with veganism is it creates a dynamic that is forcing us to feel differently about the way that we've lived and also about our identities and what we hold close to us our cultures so I think that it's a defense mechanism to hate the word or not not to hate the word but you create negative connotations around it you create negative connotations it means that you can step far back which is why people will say well figured why vegans can be so nasty I had a conversation with someone it's in my head cuz I'm editing the video right now and in it he says do you know what the biggest problem isn't vegan food he says the biggest problem is that some vegans aren't very nice so we create in our mind oh you know some vegans are they're a bit judgey you know some because of judgment just one thing you can Tommy on face but once that I was responsible for murdering animals and so I'm gonna keep murdering animals because you really upset me you know like that that's like the mindset isn't it that was a bit fast I didn't that was bit harsh I didn't mean like that I'm sorry but like that's the mindset isn't it it's kind of like if someone offends you you place the whole philosophical idea on to that person who's upset you because then you can dispute the whole flock philosophical idea you got this person who was not very nice to me therefore everything he stands for as she stands for is completely invalid but we don't deploy that in anywhere else I've met a lot of meat eaters who were very horrible people but that doesn't mean that meat-eaters in general are horrible people right and also just because that one meat eater was horrible doesn't mean that meat-eating is wrong because of that it's wrong for all the other reasons not because that one meat eater was not very nice to me and so if veganism you can't discredit a whole philosophical way of life because when vegan wasn't very nice to you and you go well vegans are preachy and militant and extreme right because we create the psychological connotations to make it easy to touch from wanting to change I don't want to be like that because that person was not very nice but also we have this kind of binary to set up don't we vegans against the world you know vegans are going to steak house and they're doing this vegans are trying to do this there was an article in the newspaper The Daily Mail in the UK they said vegans are like Stalinists right well like dictators you know we're just like because you know vegans generally just like Joseph Stalin right rally responsible for murdering millions oh no that's non vegans who murder millions of yeah no no no I'm being facetious again I'm sorry I'm being facetious relax relax I get ahead of myself sometimes but this is the thing it's now like we do what we put a whole lot of connotation or specific ideas to make us feel less inclined to change to them so yeah I mean look at the end of the day people a lot of people don't want to change they feel that vegans are forcing and being preachy and I get that I used to feel the exact same way 100% understand that so there we so then we create negative connotations around the word to want the distance ourself from I think that's the bottom line it's a psychological defense mechanism perpetuated by some vegans who do silly things I'm not gonna deny that it's right now a vegan who's suing Burger King in the US yep Burgie in the US have something called the impossible whopper which is a plant-based burger and Burger King they cook it on the same griddle where they cook the meat and this vegan is now suing them because of cross-contamination to me that is the most stupid thing that they could do right like what impression is that give our vegans they don't buy it then right don't buy it then you know and so stuff like that doesn't help doesn't help and so I think that also adds to these negative connotations of vegans being a specific way and so it means that as vegans we have to be mindful of how we act how we speak how we are because we can't avoid people having bad impressions of us they always will people are going to like us simply because they know we're vegan but the end of the day when we have conversations with people when we can chat about these ideas we can rationalize them and people see that beyond veganism is actually a grounding of of interesting ideas at the very least right I think that's why economy is more complicating that though probably gosh simplistic but complicated isn't it yeah the question is what do I think about the liberation liberation played great question liberation pledge is where you pledge not to be animals around or animal products around other people that eating animal products you have a group of friends who are the only vegan they want to go to a burger place they want to buy beef burgers you say I'm not going because you're eating beef burgers I've taken the liberation pledge you wear a bracelet which is what I'm do this you take the liberation pledge and so you the idea is that you're saying to people that you will not normalize it right because the idea is if we around people they're having a beef burger we're having a vegan burger we're all laughing everything's normal we normalize that process to the person we say that eating that product is absolutely fine I think there's two ways of looking at it I don't think that we are obliged by any stretch to take a liberation pledge I think actually sometimes it's good if you're in the right situation to eat a vegan burger around people eating non vegan burgers because you can show them how good that burger is if you can get a beyond meat burger in a restaurant or in a takeaway then do it and if your friend is in a non vegan burger get them to take a bite get him to have about try this beyond meat burger and see what you like because if they like it then you can go well why not buy that in the future right because there's all these reasons why you should but if you weren't there in the first place you've missed that opportunity haven't you so I think it's situationally dependent my grandparents last year had their 60th wedding anniversary 60 years was pretty crazy isn't it and so 60th wedding anniversary the whole family gets together and we're gonna have a big meal together in this nicest place right and so I'm like great what am I gonna do do I go what do I do I get the vegan menu sent to me through the post the dessert is fruit salads oh my Christ I think it's probably late you know like that this that I come over the start was it's probably tomatoes or something so I made the decision not to eat around them because they had like cheesecake they're like pork loin so like decadent foods right luxury Foods in their eyes and so if I'm gonna sit there in there eating like cheesecake and cream and stuff and I'm eating some grapes thinking like all vegan food is really bad right because that's the image it portrays but actually if there if it been never way around if it was like hey you can have this amazing start of this beyond me burger you're gonna have a vegan cheese cake then I'd have sat there in eatin then gonna look what's the difference you know I'm enjoying this just as much as you enjoying yours and this is the positives of what I'm doing but instead I didn't do that I didn't eat with them because I didn't want to have that process of you know saying like how rubbish vegan food is and seem really miserable about it so I think it's situationally dependent and I think if we use our better judgment but I don't think we have to take it I don't think it's an obligation I actually think that I'm very cautious of telling people how there should be of their friends and family because friends are family instrumental and we can't I don't think it's right to tell people how they should be of their friends and family if it risks those relationships so yeah and I think if you want to do it I think it's amazing I fully support I get the logic behind it a hundred percent I just also think that there's another reason to not do it as well that's true I mean you also have to look after yourself and so if you're an activist or you just care deeply about veganism and and it hurts you to be around people do and that will look after yourself yeah fundamentally look after yourself as well don't put yourself in those situations if it if it's hurtful for you but likewise don't take yourself out of the situations if you think it's damaging to your relationships as well I think both ways work fine one last question gone that my friends and my family aren't vegan my friends mostly I've got a few non vegan friends but they're really sweet about it you know what I mean by that is a Melanie joy who's a clinical social psychologist she refers to people who aren't vegan by sympathetic of veganism as a vegan allies and she thinks that's a good thing I also think it's a good thing and they're also hypocrites but this I know but it is also a good thing as well is it good I like mine on being rich they're very sweet people very sweet people they're just a little bit hypocritical but no and so I do have not being friends but they're dead that's that changes over time so that's that's that's okay that's okay I'm not too worried about that because I have really constructive conversations with them but my family I wouldn't even classify as vegan allies I'd do the opposite anyway okay Larry I've got a few minutes I'm gonna Ralph Reed because it's it's actually a really important topic family the hardest people to speak to I'd rather sit down and be grilled by ten dairy farmers and have a conversation with my mum about veganism I mean I'd rather be shouted at by ten dairy farmers and listen to my mum give me that look you know so because she's terrified sometimes right she said to me about five weeks ago she looked at she came out to London to visit me before I came travelling and she said ed I'm never gonna be vegan I said mom I didn't ask you we weren't talking about veganism it wasn't a topic of Commons she just said it to me I was like damn that's hurtful right but let's take it back I'd be vegan for about a year and I decided to email my parents if I email in my parents is probably the first form of activism I did and you could I use that word activism very loosely right because I'm something Gmail I'm not liberating like you know chickens from factory farms right it's just every some people in balaclavas like liberating animals now I'm just on Gmail con hi mum yeah it's not really but it was my first itself into activist and the first thing I did right I said hi mum and then hi dad my parents are both separated the both divorced they divorced mine's by two years old and so they're both remarried and so I emailed them hi mom hi dad you know as you know I've been vegan for a little while I've never spoken to you about it so I did a paragraph and ethics paragraph on the environment a paragraph about health lots of love your son Edwards and I included yeah thought that I could button them up that way and I put a little clip and it was called the secret reason we meet by dr. Melanie joy which is a fantastic video it's non-judgmental it's non confrontational is strictly empathetic it actually says you do these things these are all the reasons you do them you're not a bad person at all because look at all these reasons why you do with the things you do what this is amazing like it's like how could anyone be offended by this well I found out in my so I said it's my dad my dad didn't reply to me which is not uncharacteristic because like I said he did leave when I was two right so I'm used to being ignored by my dad's like it's totally fine it's totally fine right my mum did reply to me and she said God put animals on his planet for us to eat my mom isn't religious so what does that mean she doesn't own a Bible she doesn't go to church and I'm not baptized so what does that mean I think my mum is a little bit religious so that if it's true and she gets the heavens gay she can go well I didn't say I didn't believe in you I just you know she's just a tiny bit rather just for safety reasons I think you know like we probably all are a little bad because I'm like I say I'm an atheist but then sometimes I'm like sorry did I hit her please forgive me so she's a little bit for safety but she's not really she also said I was going to die from synthetic proteins right it's this day I don't know what synthetic protein is right and I'm really worried about them right because I'm the Delta get me apparently so I'm like creeping around corners carefully like now anyway let's go back to yourselves it didn't end up well ok didn't end up gross so two years ago I did a debate of a dairy farmer on the BBC it was a live debate on television I was feeling pretty good afterwards I was quite happy of myself the dairy farm was a guy called Paul Tompkins he's the head of dairy UK and I felt like I did an alright job so I sense my mum and I sent it to my dad I was like hey just to let you know I did this today would you like to watch it they didn't know about my vegan advocacy they didn't know about any of the things I did so I just sent it to them my mum replied been like yeah I'll watch it later my dad replied and he said oh we watched it live this morning you know we know all about what you do and you were very persuasive this way sir and also my dad cannot like film Buster's it's like connection why we like films and so my dad said if it was rocky it was if it was a rocky film you were rocky and he was Apollo Creed which basically means that I I'd be him you know it's a film reference it's a bit nerdy but it's how we get on so it was nice and that meant a lot to me and so I was like persuasive you know I said dad that's amazing and he's like I know we watched you and he said he was proud of me I thought that's come a long way right it's come a long long way which corner away from leaving especially but now he's proud of me that's nice isn't it so I'm like I'm totally fine with it all right don't worry about so like my dad's open the door isn't he right and like he's just like slamming the door trying to close it and I'm like you said I was persuasive dad so we're in this for the life now I saw him about a year ago maybe a little bit longer he said to me what supplements do you take for Christ here we go right I said to him well dad I take a vitamin D during winter because everyone should and he said well it's funny my doctor also told me I should take a bit of Mindy during winter how about that right how about that like we take the same supplements you know we're all good some ways so yep that's right and you said well the thing is that it's all about taste you know if it having a vegan food that tastes the same then then that's fine and I said well we're good then aren't we you know we're good we're good so he's not vegan no no no but he is understanding very very nice when I call him up he's super interesting tell me he watched all these videos I did a talk of something called the UK vegan campout this year and so when he worked in his office had fliers for its and so he was flowering the office and my dad was like oh that's my son speak in there which was like super sweet right so you know what I'm trying to say is it takes a hell of a long time my family and I'm still working very closely at mine when my mom visited me I said to her I'll buy you a coffee mum but it coffees got a plant milking right but I'll buy you it you I'll buy you anything you want but he's got to be vegan right so she did she had it it was almond milk and she liked it and I thought that that goes a long way you know and so I think with family it's about buying things in for them can you get them a plant milk you know can you buy them a coffee can you take them out to a vegan restaurant and pay for their dinner can you do these things because it goes a long way in showing them things also with family I get it right I get it like my family tried to raise me to have good morals to be a good person with good you values what if that really means but to them who tried to raise me to be a good person I turn almost 21 and I say to my mum I say look mum I'm vegan now and the reason I've eaten is because I think it's immoral to kill animals what I'm actually saying to her is the way you raised me is immoral and not only that but you live in a moral way as well I think for a parent to hear that is probably one of most challenging things they can hear from a child you raised me wrong you raised me in a way that I disagree with and so I think any parent that that goes vegan or at least even says to their child tell me why you're vegan and listens that to me that requires some the most respect ever the humility for a parent to do that I think is incredible and so um I get it I do I get it it doesn't make it easier but I understand why that might be the case and so my mum says you're gonna die from synthetic proteins it's outrageous but what she's saying is she's worried about my health because my mum raised me to think that I needed me for protein I twelve years old that English literature class we can skinny write remember at the beginning well that was what my mom told me so that's what she thinks so it's no wonder she said that because she's actually worried about me so when I looked behind the way she speaks I get it I get it and when she said that I think it's me about five and a half weeks ago she said I'll never be vegan you know it was funny I have a restaurant in London called unity diner it's a non-profit vegan restaurant and we'd gone there for lunch and she'd not said anything about it not worried about it she was sat there with Ian I looked at her every split second it looked like she was gonna cry she'd say what about it I could see in eyes and then it went right it's tideland and they'd stopped about a minute later she didn't say a word to me couple minutes later she says I'm never gonna go vegan and I think the reason she said that wasn't to be hurtful I think it's because it's a defense mechanism I think she'd eaten a nice meal she'd enjoyed her lunch she was in an environment that I was responsible partly for food for creating she probably felt some sort of emotion right maybe pride who knows hopefully and so she starts to feel something and then she takes it back and then the way to defend herself from feeling guilty or from acknowledging something or maybe feeling sad because our relationship has become somewhat fragmented since I went vegan she says I'm never gonna be vegan you know because it stamps a defense mechanism for her psychologically not to be offensive so I think I get it I get it it's hard that painful for me to think that but I get it you know like I know from how the family I was raised in how emotionally repressed their family dynamic can be in my household so I understand where she comes from but uh it's hardly family because there's so much this layers and layers and layers there's baggage and this is the childhood had things and all this stuff in it and it's hard to come to terms with patience is so important offered to cook a meal offer to would they like to watch this documentary can i buy them coffee can I try this food can you do this can you do that small steps with family go a big way I think that's what I found anyway but I've still got many many small steps to go it's a hard one I wish there's needs the answer if you ever find it please let me know but there just isn't I don't think we're family it is out of every conversation I have with vegans there's always the number one problem how do I tell my family I'd recommend spy families be vegan the truth is there's no answer to that other than patience and perseverance I think or you have an amazing parent yeah not that my parents are amazing but they're just a little bit less amazing than they could be you know okay I know love you mom love you dad no okay right thank you for listening [Music] you

Channel: Universität Konstanz

Views: 111,117

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Id: rt3XYexmu74

Length: 97min 7sec (5827 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 17 2019