Eckhart Tolle

any further ado i want to bring on eckhart tolle who is connecting with us from vancouver british columbia eckart welcome hi i'm here on a beautiful spring late afternoon fresh green is everywhere flowering trees wonderful sand in the air and very easy today to enjoy the present moment glorious a glorious vancouver spring day i was recently with you uh garden vancouver and we had the chance to enjoy some of that springtime weather together and i'm so happy to have this chance to be with you now here in this webinar so let's let's get started here's the very first question your new course is called the power of presence and of course many of us know you through reading your book the power of now what's the relationship between presence and the now and how do i know if i'm actually experiencing presence well that's uh interesting uh questions it's kind of two or three questions together but they're related let's start with the last part um how do i know that i'm experiencing presence uh if we want to use words in a very very precise way then it would not be correct to say that i am experiencing presence so if you want to use be very very careful of the way you use words to say that somebody can experience presence is actually not correct although when we use language in a more casual way then of course we say it now if you say i'm experiencing presence there's a separation there there's me and there's presence there's a subject and an object but presence cannot really be an object in your consciousness because presence is consciousness so consciousness cannot make itself into an object so when you say i found it there it is then that's that's not really it so but because we have to use language language immediately creates a duality and because in every sentence structure is it has a subject and has an object and so we conventionally we use that kind of language uh to be more precise one would say would have to say that presence is the now that's becoming conscious of itself and in order to understand that let's look for a moment of the what the now actually is because that was the first part of the question and what's the difference between now and presence uh now in a very uh everyday usage now is just whatever is going on at this moment is a now so it's usually in conventional usage the now is refers to what's happening right now so that means it's your your sense perceptions or even anything that's happening inside you emotions or feelings or thoughts whatever is is happening happen [Music] and now come together nothing can happen in past or future it just looks as if it could but as we all know and i wrote it at the beginning of the power of now nothing ever happened in the past it happened in the now it's a paradox even to say that nothing will ever happen in the future because when it happens it will be now so the word happen and now belong together nothing can happen that is not now and so first of all we have then the the conventional usage where the the now is equated with what's happening and that is certainly true because when when when you become aware of the present moment then usually become aware of sense perceptions or feelings or emotions or thoughts so right now i could say what is what is it that makes up this now here and for us now it's there's a screen you're looking at me you're also peripherally aware of the wherever you are the room you're sitting in and so their sense perception auditory visual you might be aware that you're breathing you might be aware even of your inner body your life is in the inner body so that's a good thing because that is you're entering the now and when you enter the nav at first you become aware usually of sense perceptions and whatever is happening externally and internally that's all happening happening now it's not yet that is not the the deeper level of now i call that sometimes the surface of normal so the surface of now is all those things that i just described you could say that the the absolute surface is the so-called external world that is perceived through your senses and then you go a little bit deeper and then you get the the unseen the unseen is thoughts and feelings because you cannot see a thought the thought exists in the invisible already so it's a a little deeper but all that is that is what is conventionally called the now so uh living in the now then conventionally speaking means that you are very much aware of your sense perceptions and you're also aware of inner whatever arises internally that's but it's still the surface of love if you now add something else to it and then something else is you become aware of yourself as the perceiving consciousness and that's it that is when and when you become aware of yourself as the perceiving consciousness you have gone deeper into the actual essence of now so the service of now is what's going what's happening around you as you go deeper you become aware of yourself but not the historical person not the person with the past and the future of yourself as that which is perceiving internal and external perceptions now that's very interesting and i hope that as i'm speaking about it right now uh i hope that you are able to realize and firsthand what it means to become aware of yourself as the perceiving consciousness now another way of putting it is you become aware of your sense perceptions but you become aware also of the space in which the sense perceptions happen that's the now that is a deeper meaning of now it's no longer the surface of now so the deeper meaning of now there's a stillness inside you against which everything happens that's the backdrop to whatever is happening there's a still presence and it is still a that presence and that is that that is the pure now and so when we go to that level of now the deeper level of now that is another way of putting it is that that is the essence of who you are so the deep meaning of now is you are the now in your essence uh it i never when i was writing the power of now this uh i never formulated it in that way it came to me later otherwise it would be in the book but it's a great realization that when you're when you become deeply aware of the now that you become deeply aware of yourself as the consciousness and then you have the two that's presence where and then you are present which means you can sense that presence and at the same time but that presence of sorry has no form it has no you cannot say much about it you can only experience that as yourself or it experiences itself but it would be more accurate to say so right now here we are you're aware of your video there's your visual perception this auditory perception and there's the you might want to even look around the room you're sitting in and you can be aware of your body your inner body this and then at the same time be aware of this the presence that you are which means there's a stillness while you're perceiving there's a stillness in the background of your perception and the large stillness that's presence and so one could say therefore that when the now which is consciousness ultimately timeless consciousness when the now becomes conscious of itself that's presence that's the awakening consciousness it's an amazing thing i don't want to complicate it too much by by talking about it because we don't words can be helpful as signposts but when you start trying to work things out mentally then they can obscure the immediacy of the truth and the deepest truth is who who you are in your essence which is the now uh so right now and you can get a taste of what it means to perceive no longer as a person because when you are not labeling your sense perceptions mentally when you're not interpreting comparing looking to the next moment remembering the past moment then you're not perceiving as a person anymore so when you're really present the person subsides and something else emerges and that something else is not different from the person it's a deeper dimension of the person the person is a service phenomenon and so it's a wonderful realization that you and the now are one and the same so the i remember the last question the last part of this question was how do i know well if you're able to understand what it is i'm talking about now but not conceptually but experientially then you know what presence is and if you have no idea what i'm talking about then there's still an obstruction in you you're still trying to understand through the conceptual [Music] mind [Music] so eckhart the very first module for the upcoming power of presence course is called to think or not to think and in this module you teach about the importance of not identifying with our thinking minds with the conceptual thought process with what you call the voice in the head and we had [Music] a listener write in i find that my mental programming jumps quickly to judgment it doesn't affect how i interact with people they're just thoughts in the mind however despite knowing that their judgments they continue to come up again and again is there a practice i can do to reduce judgment in the mind yes well every judgment is a thought it's a type of particular type of thought and when thoughts arise in you and you might the question is are you aware of these judgments in the moment in the moment moment they arise in you or are you aware of these judgments after they have arisen in use so you have to examine that in yourself um it could be that you're only aware of the judgment after it's already maybe even a few minutes later or it could be that you're actually aware in the moment that certain thoughts are rising in you and that's a right that is a great uh gain in consciousness because you're not identified with the judgment or the thought there's an awareness in the background and so it's not absolutely necessary um unless you're already perhaps extremely advanced and i'll come to that in a second uh to eliminate certain types of thought but if you can be there as the the presence behind the thought then you're not identified with the thought and then it's not really a huge obstacle anymore because the thought does not um [Music] assume your identity the thought is a thought that does not contain self anymore because the who you perceive yourself to be your as your sense of self is derived from the awareness no longer from the thought that means even though the thought may still be occurring [Music] you are no longer imprisoned by the thought you're no longer completely identified with it it's not really a huge problem anymore when you recognize a thought as a thought it only becomes problematic when it takes you over and you there's no longer there's no longer you and the thought because you become the thought so if you can be aware of thoughts arising perhaps thoughts that have been there for a long time conditioned by your past it's not it's not a huge problem uh in fact it's already a spiritual practice to be able to you know to be able to be aware of thoughts arising and if you are aware of thoughts arising that means they will also subside fairly quickly if you're not aware of thoughts that arise then every thought that arises draws your attention in like a magnet it places a hip or a hypnotic spell on you so to speak and then and the thought says follow me and so you identify with the thought it takes possession of you and then it it grows or proliferate it can lead to other similar thoughts or its point becomes amplified it becomes a huge thing a huge problem with a huge issue that only really is problematic in your mind but not in in reality uh so to be aware of certain types of thinking means you're no longer in the grip of it it's just still there so basically you're already free um then they there there's another possibility for uh perhaps not yet accessible to all but this is something you may gradually learn and that is to to eliminate thinking not by attempting to exert willpower not by because theoretically or not only theoretically it is possible for limited periods of time to suppress thought activity but this is not recommended to suppress thought activity i've i have met practitioners of zen for example they can meditate for hours on end many of them are westerners because westerners can be very determined and so they have enormous willpower and so they are able to suppress thought in meditation through to the sheer power of will um and it looks kind of like this and if you stop breathing it's even better because then you can really suppress it but at some point you have to start breathing again and at some point the suppressed thoughts will pop out again and they'll be more stronger than ever before and this could happen if you if you exercise your willpower and you have a you meditate for two hours and suppress your thoughts and you and then you go back into your your private life the next thing you might might find that you're shouting at your partner because the suppressed thoughts are now if you're taking the lid of the boiling kettle so that's not the way to go so do not thoughts cannot ultimately be suppressed they can be however um [Music] dissolved through not willpower but intense presence and that is the uh kind of presence that you would need for example if you were engaged in some kind of dangerous activity it would require you to be absolutely alert and still like let's see you may discover uh in yourself the ability maybe not yet or some of you may already be able to do it briefly and this is not an amazing thing to um let go of thought when you want to let go of thought that is as i've said before uh perhaps my greatest achievement in life is i don't need to think when i don't want to think that wouldn't get me a good job probably and if i put it in my resume but it's a wonderful liberation so but do not confuse that with suppressing thought there's no exertion of will at all there's no tension behind that then it's not presence uh your breathing is is calm and and probably deep and there's just the entire frequency of uh even your entire body is raised so to speak everything vibrates at a higher frequency and that is presence and it can then you go and the mind is clear um you can experiment to see whether you're already able to do that maybe for very brief moments another thing to do is observe how brief moments of thoughtless presence arise spontaneously when you perceive something either by looking at it or hearing it when you perceive something so in the moment of it let something appearing in your perception an external thing or sound in that first moment there is no thought there's only perception and awareness for now for most people that's so short they don't even know it's there before the mind says something about it before the mind interprets it there's a little gap for example if i take we can take glasses or something if i if i put something up and i show it to you before you say what it is you have to look at it and that's one second or approximately before the mind realizes what it is so during one second there's a pure perception you you don't know yet what it is it takes you one second or so to know it and to actually put it into words into thought look at this oh glasses but before you said it there was a gap so anything you can hear sound to the springtime here in the northern hemisphere so you hear a bird song and when you as you listen before you say anything about it they can be the pure act of listening and if you're lucky you don't even know what the name of that bird then your mind won't even struggle to name it because you don't don't know and then you can continue to listen if you know the name of the bird the mind will come in more quickly there that is oh that's a whatever a black bird that is a nightingale that is a whatever so anything that appears in your perception you can catch that first moment of not naming yet that's an interesting way of experiencing the space of no thought and if you can really be there in the moment of something appearing in your perceptual field if you can really be there in that moment then the the naming of it will not happen immediately the the the the the internal by of pure perception will become prolonged in other words you look at something and several seconds pass before you interpret it or name it or say think something about it so yeah you have you look at something and oh and then perhaps your mind says something about it so if you can catch yourself always in the first moments of perception or mostly to do with visual and auditory but it could also be tactile it could also be sent you smell this in springtime there are many lovely scents in the air and i talked to somebody the uh not long ago who was a he's a wine expert and he he has a website where he talks about food and wine and that's his pleasant job he just travels around the world eating and drinking and talking about it writing about it and i said have you noticed that when you taste wine while you're tasting it you're not thinking so there is you're searching with your attention you're searching your taste buds but but it's pure experiencing and then usually what they do they spit it out and then they start talking about it and they use words i mean seem great these wine connoisseurs they have incredible vocabulary to wish to describe these different wines which i couldn't do so but but he was surprised to realize that yes it is true when i taste the wine there's just no thought whatsoever while i taste it and then the thought comes in all he said sometimes even in the middle of tasting thoughts already begin [Music] but the first stage of it at least is free of thought so that's another example of the this little gap between perception and labeling between perception and thought so if you can catch these little gaps as they appear naturally in your life they will net these gaps will then naturally deepen and when they deepen you become a deeper human being the the depth in you grows the more gap there is between perception interpretation the more deeply you perceive and then that what that means is you can look at a tree or flower or an animal or a human being and before and you're not immediately covering it up with a mental label at some point perhaps you will but you're not compulsively and immediately covering it up with a mental label unless you have to because there might be situations where you immediately need to communicate that's a different matter so and that is an enormous deepening of your life if you can if you if you are able to in this way delay thought before before thought is added to the perception and then you will perceive things and life forms more deeply you can sense the aliveness of a tree of a flower and you can you realize by by equating let's let's say a tree by creating the tree with a conceptual symbol a thought you're reducing to the very little you're reducing the depth of it and the mystery of it uh the one of it to a little concept in your mind allow people of course this is how they live most people they live trapped in a conceptual reality that is relatively lifeless and so as you are no longer trapped by concepts you're able to experience the world in a more vivid way and experience the depth and mystery of all things uh it's a totally different way of knowing things than knowing conceptually and of course human beings they need to be able to have both you need to be able to use concepts and thoughts which are thoughts but not be careful that you are not being used by them so that's the um what was the question the first thing that i just answered yes eckhart the the question had to do with judgment and this person saying that they know their judgments but they keep coming up is there anything that this person could do to reduce the amount of judgment they expect i believe i have answered it either just recognize it for what it is be aware of these thoughts it means you're no longer trapped by them you're not identified or if you can be so present that they don't arise but not through willpower through just through the alertness of your consciousness as the zen master said when somebody asked him to explain the meaning of zen [Music] he went like that's the meaning of zen and what that means is pure attention pure presence and that shines shines away or burns up or unnecessary thought so some people are able to i just recommend it to this other thing that you're able to do catch these moments and then they get longer and so gradually the ability develops in you [Music] to let go of thought um when you don't want it and you don't need it and then experience things in in actually in a way that is deeper and more alive but not losing the ability to use thought because it's a great tool and sometimes you of course you do need it now eckhart we received many questions from people that had a common theme which is how do i stay present when i'm dealing with a challenging person that i find difficult to be around it could be an exchange with an intimate partner or a child who's having a fit or other situations how do we stay present when we feel ourselves being triggered by someone we perceive as difficult well yes i can see why many people ask that question because it's a fact that people are very difficult and except you of course i'm talking to the viewer and you tammy you deal with things very consciously so i know that so but uh most people except of course that still means anybody who is not yet awakening consciously are difficult to deal with they are challenging and of course some are more challenging than others there some people are extremely difficult i'm sure you know some [Music] in fact if people had to name the main sources of their unhappiness for many people other humans would be near the top of their list of their main of the main causes of their unhappiness but it also probably the case that if you had to name the main causes of your happiness it could also be that human beings will also be the top of your near the top of your list and sometimes the same human being that is on top of your list of causing causes of happiness in your life two years later the same human being is on top of your list of causes of unhappiness in your life that is not uncommon so the same person that makes you happy today makes you unhappy tomorrow dealing with unhappy people the moment you encounter a challenging person [Music] um whether it is somebody that you are that is close to you or who is suddenly going through an episode of perhaps pain body or an egoically motivated episode comes totally um totally trapped in the ego um if at that moment you can remember the moment you feel that that you're you're being challenged by another human being even that moment you can remember what matters here at this moment is my state of consciousness this is the my challenge is not what to say or what to do like what is what is primary in this situation then you this is when you need to pay particular particularly present you need to be more intensely present the moments you're the moment you're challenged this by the way also applies to other situations that may be challenging but particularly to humans so the moment you encounter an unconscious human because it is unconscious use that are challenging you need to turn up the light of your presence and take it as a signal this hello turn up the light you need to be absolutely present now otherwise you will get drawn into reactivity and you will become as unconscious as this person that's an interesting practice with a partner you can sometimes detect the earth the sign of it it's beginning to happen some either in the energy field of the person if you've lived to the person for a long time you become very familiar with the energy field and you can detect a change in their energy field even if they're not saying anything and you you might know okay oh there's a pain body is coming up in that person he or she hasn't said anything yet but you can sense and shift and look that is a signal that is a signal to you that to be absolutely absolutely intensely present and then see what happens then you can deal with it by being in presence rather than being if you're not present with a unconscious difficult human he or she will pull you into unconsciousness every time so you will either be present or will be drawn into unconsciousness so it's one of the greatest practices is not only difficult people but also difficult situations all the things that are challenging in your life are actually the things that you need to intensify your your your presence and to speed up the arising of that state of consciousness that we call presence if you didn't have the challenges you would not become present at least it would not be a very a very deep state of presence you can you can achieve the states of presence in if you go to a meditation ashram or something like that and you you spend a retreat there and it's not it's a good thing of course to do that um but if the situations around you were arranged in such a way that you would call them ideal for your spiritual practice that's what the the mind might say i'm not being disturbed by anybody i don't have to worry about where my food is coming from the temperature is just right for my practice it's not too cold not too hot [Music] i've i'm eating to pure into wonderful food the circumstances are uh there's no noises that are disturbing me it's all so lovely one would imagine that you could really make huge spiritual progress and and you might experience inner peace in that situation but you would become dependent that your state of consciousness would become dependent on that on an ideal situation and the world is not like that it does not it cannot be sustained the moment you work out you will become challenged again you would lose that beautiful state of presence it's not deep enough so life has arranged things in such a way that uh the very challenges that you need that you that you get are those that you that are most suitable for you and they are the things that you would think of they are the things that prevent me from my spiritual practice no the very things that you think preventing you from awakening or practicing or being present are the things that potentially will take you deeper into presence they force you to go deeper and that's quite an amazing realization that do not look for ideal circumstances use what you have use what you have and incorporate it into your practice by surrendering to things that cannot be changed right now totally accepting whatever arises in the present moment taking action when needed but not on the basis of anger [Music] or extreme dissatisfaction or aggression action that arises out of the state of consciousness of acceptance of the easiness of things and then take action if it's needed but you first you become aligned with whatever is in the present moment internally aligned with the with the noun so um [Music] of course there are cases instances when uh you may not stay with a difficult person um for if it's not necessary you may sometimes want to remove yourself because only you will know in the circumstances whether removing yourself from that person either for good or while this person is going through something that is an option also it does not mean that necessarily you are forced to stay with a difficult person but if you are for some reason because you work in the same room you're trapped in an elevator with an unpleasant person then there's nothing you have to really practice so um be grateful for difficult people don't seek them out because they're enough around you for you not to have to seek them out eckhart the final module of our upcoming power of presence course is on the purpose of life and we had a listener write in this person wrote i notice that i often feel like my life is meaningless and this is a source of great pain and inner suffering eckhart could you please tell me is there a meaning to life and if so what is it so my advice would be to let go of looking for meaning on a conceptual level and learn to become deeply aligned with the present moment before you let go for a while of any question of meaning and see if you can be conscious with all the little things that make up the present moment any given time and honor those things surrender to what is uh presence practice no matter what your circumstances are rather than look for a big thing to give meaning to your life start with all the little things that make up your daily life and see how you deal with them including people of course people whatever situations you deal with you deal with how you're dealing with them what is your state of consciousness and see if you can come into alignment with the present moment rather than live in a state of resistance because you haven't found some meaning on on the conceptual level so yet basically there's an undercurrent that you're kind of rejecting what's here now because you're looking for some greater meaning in life so the basis for the basis for anything that you might do that's connected with your life purpose the basis is your state of consciousness the just need of consciousness in the present moment everything arises out of that and you don't need to have a particular meaning to find a meaning in order to dedicate yourself to be living in alignment with the is-ness of things and to appreciate whatever rises in the present moment surrender to and appreciate whatever rises in the present moment honor it give it your attention that contains an element of what is conventionally called gratitude when you honor the little things of life the things that give me most pleasure is just the contemplation of things i could be in sit in my room contemplate look out of the window the furniture even drinking a glass of water taking a shower uh preparing some food um it's all there's a loveliness in it all and this is a appreciation of all the small things that you come across that are part of your daily existence the air you're breathing people the movement of life all around you give it attention be alert and what comes into it then is as i just said an element of gratitude for what is not some big thing even gratitude for breathing gratitude for the how the light is reflected on a surface of gratitude for to graduate really means you don't necessarily have to say verbally thank you it's it's an inner attitude of gratitude which means you appreciate the life uh in its manifold manifestations through objects plants living beings entities humans it's all they're all manifestations of life and so you appreciate all that and gratitude for what is comes into your life and that can be the that is the best basis for uh finding some purpose that is connected with something that you activity that you are engaged in people when they talk about meaning they often think what's well what's the meaning of what do i what am i supposed to do in life what's the meaning but what is the purpose of the universe if you're not aligned with that then your life purpose is not going to feel very satisfying and the purpose of the universe is consciousness the purpose of the universe is to manifest more and more consciousness and you can see how gradually on this planet the complexity of life forms grows over over hundreds of thousands and millions of years gradually the complexity grows and the manifold is an increase in the countless manifestations of life which really is consciousness [Music] consciousness taking form in countless life forms and gradually there's a growth in consciousness it comes from some transcendent dimension and it enters this dimension and then this what we call an evolution on this planet and no doubt doubt billions of other planets is an evolution of con the universe wants to become more conscious so if you're not aligned with that [Music] you're not going to be you're not aligned with universal purpose your personal purpose must be lined with universal purpose to be successful really successful not successful the way the world considers success and so in order to be aligned with universal purpose your primary purpose is living consciously in this moment which i've just described to be conscious at this moment with things around you to sense your presence as you interact you to acknowledge things uh to see the goodness of life around you and you are in to be present is your primary purpose to awaken into presence and as if you practice that in your daily life then it's quite possible if not likely that something will come out of that that's to do with finding your that extends from there into your personal purpose so be aligned with the purpose of the universe which is be conscious and even if you're in a prison cell what is the meaning of life if you're in a prison cell and let's say you they told you that you can't even they're not going to be released ever perhaps you were very unconscious and did something in that state of deep unconsciousness or even they you're imprisoned from because you are wrongly you were wrongly accused so but you're in this present cell can you be can you practice can you align yourself with the meaning of life in the present cell yes you can by being every moment of the love you practice presence which means you're entire historical person will become burned up in that arising presence because it's the historical person is just it's just too much suffering to go there so that you transcend the entire person that you were and what arises whether whether once was a person so there's just a place of consciousness and it's happened to some prisoners uh and that's a possibility so the you don't need any particular situation to become aligned with the the purpose of life you can be aligned with the purpose of life and and become a participant in this deeper meaning even if you only have a few more weeks to live and then you live absolutely you live in absolute total presence there's no past and future anymore no future no past just intense presence that's the flowering of consciousness then the universe aware awakens through you that's the meaning of life is the universe awakens through you and what you do is secondary the being is primary to become a way of being is primary but usually unless you're very old and there's not much doing that can do anymore or you're in a prison cell but there's some limited doing that may be possible there too so that is um how you can realize the meaning of life in yourself um without needing some uh long conceptual belief system because you don't want you don't want a belief system that gives you meaning because that would be a narrative and the in conventional terms if people are not awakened they need a narrative to give meaning to their lives but this is not a narrative this is a living experiencing the the yourself as consciousness and then appreciating all the manifestations of consciousness as life forms uh you don't you no longer need to live through a narrative in your mind you know narratives are um [Music] kind of fictions that you have in your head that's it this is have you read there's a there's an ancient spanish novel don don quixote don quixote and he has uh uh he has read uh this character has written novels of chivalry and he's imagined imagines in his mind that he's a knight a knight kmi who is supposed to uh save people and bring justice to the world he is a narrative he's a fictitious character in his own mind and that gives meaning to his life and that's uh that's an interest that's an extreme case of what many people do the meaning is a conceptual structure in their minds but that on the deeper level meaning is something more immediate it's not a it's not a conceptual explanation more of a realization of what is the meaning of life it's very hard to talk about it i've been talking about it but it's not it's not something to be believed in or anything like that it's something to be lived you are the meaning of life because you are consciousness you are a temporary expression of universal consciousness you're in a temporary manifestation as a it's called a person for a while you're a manifestation of of the consciousness of the universe and that's that consciousness is coming to flowering and that's the meaning of life so the meaning of life is inseparable from who you are eckhart here as we conclude our webinar together it's such a rare opportunity to have so many thousands of people joining with you online in this way i wonder if if we could just end with a minute in silence together in silent presence together if that would be okay and we can join with you very good so um what you can do is you can either close your eyes or you can look into my eyes i will keep my eyes open and i can assure you that i'm not going to be thinking it sometimes can be helpful perhaps even on the screen to connect with another human being who is free of the mind just as consciousness and see if you can just be in that stillness if you want to keep your eyes open and if if it might help if it's difficult otherwise to feel the inner body at the same time that can become an anchor for presence so as you look at me or look into my eyes this is nothing to do with hypnotism it's the opposite it's a de-hypnotizing so just see if you can just be present and then as you look into my eyes don't feel that you're looking into somebody else's eyes it's just one single consciousness one single presence and you tammy will let us know when we come to the end of this brief moment of shared stillness and presence okay wonderful thank you so much eckhart for your deep wisdom and generosity thank you thank you

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Length: 62min 58sec (3778 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 16 2020