East Germany Re-Examined: Why Its Legacy of Socialism & Anti-Imperialism Still Matters

but I think also the general takeaway from the gdr is that you know they're all alternatively is possible and it's an alternative that's also being run by the working people and it's successful I mean the economy in the DDR grow every year it was no year where it didn't well and it was at the same time guaranteeing Full Employment and comprehensive social and cultural rights to its working people you know this is not this is not a Utopia guys I mean it's I'm not saying that the gdr was perfect but it did show that you can be on the right side of History you can move Beyond this you know it doesn't have to be where it is right now hello everyone I'm Ronnie okalick and this is dispatches the German Democratic Republic is Remembered in the west if it's Remembered at all as a dystopian backwards place the antithesis of freedom and democracy a police state whose fault marked the end of history and the return of East Germany to its proper place in the Democratic capitalist remarket West it's remembered that way because communism fell and the enemies of socialism who were victorious got to write their narrative in the history books but the objective reality of the gdr is far more complex and worth re-examining by those of us who want to see a more socialist Anti-Imperialist World Not only was the gdr a socialist State built on anti-fascist principles following the second world war a place where everyone had access to education and housing or equality between men and women was guaranteed it also practiced solidarity with other socialist states countries and Liberation movements fighting for independence from colonialism across the global cell well It ultimately did fail it's worth understanding what worked and the reasons for its downfall even less known are the roots of capitalist West Germany as a European Outpost and protector of the U.S hegemony with an army established under the leadership of former Nazis it became Central to the Cold War against social Estates why does this history still matter what's the connection between anti-imperialism and socialism how did social Estates like the gdr organize their Anti-Imperialist solidarity during the 20th century and what does this tell us about global developments today as the international order is Shifting to a multi-polar world where Progressive forces are witnessing a rebirth of a non-aligned movement of states to discuss this and more I'm join my Max roderman and Matthew Reed researchers the international Research Center DDR which together with the tri-continental institute for social research published a special issue on the Legacy and historical experiences of socialist construction under the conditions of constant imperialist aggression in the gdr titled risen from the ruins but before we jump into it this is just the first half of this episode the second half is available for breakthrough news members only you can become a man member at patreon.com breakthrough news and as always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show you can also donate Below on YouTube Max and Matthew welcome to the show thanks for having us yeah thanks very much long time listeners yeah exactly long time well long time listeners I love that obviously like I'm a I'm an admirer of the work you all have been doing at the international Research Center DDR and of course we're going to be talking about the German German Democratic Republic and as I mentioned in the opening a lot of the important factors that go into the Anti-Imperialist socialist principles it was founded on and acted on um but before we get into all that I think it you know it might be useful for our audience to have an idea of you know what is the research center which you guys are both a part of your researchers and fellows at uh in Germany um and why is it relevant uh in the work you're doing today you want to go first or okay uh okay so maybe to start off and give a little bit of background of what the German Democratic Republic actually uh is about or how to uh understand it I think the most important thing to know and to understand to for anything to know about the gdr is that it was kind of a child of the second world war so nothing can be understood without understanding this kind of uh conjecture that developed after the second world war in Germany and all over Europe in general so after the defeat of fascism and you had the um with the conference of of Yalta you had these kind of 4ds as the policies for the occupied Germany occupied zones of Germany which were which was occupied from America Britain the Soviet Union and the certain sector for France also but so they made these 4ds which stood for denasification demilitarization demonipilization it was the last one help me out decentralization I think um so um a policy to really break the neck of the former uh um yeah fascist regime in Germany and effectively they have been implemented very differently in the different zones of Germany in the western zones uh from uh the American and British sector they were never really effectively implemented whereas in the Soviet zone actually they developed a kind of anti-fascistic democratic path that in the end in 1949 developed into two different states that were founded however it's very important that the the West always was kind of the driving force of uh really separating these two states um I don't know what the Western president said something famous like rather the half German Germany hole then the whole Germany only half I don't know if that translates translates well but what he effectively meant is that he wants political control of the uh the complete political control with his political program on Germany which obviously only was suitable for Western German Western Germany so we had this situation of an anti-fascistic Democratic development in the East already that then led to the path of the German Democratic Republic which only was there for 40 years effectively from 40 in 1949 to 1990 and uh in the early 50s began also to develop a socialist society and um yeah maybe this as a like General introduction about what we are talking on our Research Center however is not only focused on the gdr but on the Socialist camp in the whole and tries to really bring this experiences of how they um developed the socialist society um uh into our discussions of like Progressive movements uh and activists of today um yeah because there's a huge it's a huge treasure you know there have been all these discussions and all these like practical experiences of uh socialism in all in all fields of society like we recently published a study on socialist healthcare for example we're working on socialist agriculture education and socialist democracy and so on and it's uh from our perspective it's very important to do this kind of research because of the overall anti-communist sentiment that also reaches out to our movements unfortunately and uh okay sorry no go ahead no no no I think it's really important to note I mean uh all that anti-communism that is really written in like our history books across the global North and even in the global South to some degree um it acts as a huge barrier to per to to anything Progressive around the world even today and of course back then it didn't I I'd just like you to elaborate a little bit on something because I think it's important everything you just noted uh but in the context of like East Germany versus West Germany the German Democratic Republic versus West Germany there's something real I mean there's so many important factors and why these two places were so different I mean obviously one was in the Eastern Camp one was in the western camp but you know a lot of Americans and people in general in the west aren't familiar with the fact that you know okay yes you had the Socialist state in East Germany that's founded on these anti-fashionist principles in the aftermath of the defeat of Nazism right and they really instituted detoxification like they took denotsification very very seriously and they implemented socialist principles we can talk a bit more about one of the most important principles that they implemented so well which was the expropriation of private property for the public good I'd love to hear more about that but I think it's really important to also juxtapose that uh with what West Germany was because West Germany was founded by like leadership that included a lot of former Nazis and it became like this capitalist Outpost right of the United States of the Europeans and it was really like a weapon in the Cold War against not just the Soviet Union but of course the entire socialist Camp around the world as well as all these Liberation struggles which the German Democratic Republic was in solidarity with and we're gonna I mean I want to go into all of those different things but first I mean can you kind of give us like uh a sort of comparison between what East what what the German Democratic Republic was like versus what what West Germany was like particularly the role of like actual anti-fascist principles and denotsification how that was different in both places yeah maybe I'll jump in there I mean I think the first thing that's important to note as well is that you know the post-war situation in Germany was uh very much up in the air you know it was a discussion amongst the anti-hitter Coalition you know what are we going to do with Germany and Soviets had a very clear understanding that you know we need Germany to stay United and we need to be demilitarized denotified and not part of any Alliance it's going to be directed against uh the West Oregon and the problem is that the West had a very different understanding about this they wanted as Max said you know they wanted West Germany to be like a boardwalk basically against the Socialist States they wanted uh to divide the country and so this is why you have this divide in Germany in the first place anyway it's very much a western policy part of this containment um this is or even the rollback strategy push the influence and so Western Powers they also realized that if they wanted to do this in Germany they would have to basically restore capitalism in the west and restore Monopoly capitalism in all of its ugly reforms right so I mean not only the Marshall Plan right which is the U.S sending all this Capital into Western Europe as a way of sort of not only economically but also ideologically tying west of Germany to all the United States in the North Atlantic states but also very much yeah sort of really re-establishing this German Imperial tradition you know they brought in Nazi uh generals and so on to become new Generals in Western military on the first head of NATO he was also high ranking Nazi official uh you had the same thing going on in the banking sector you had ex-nazis doing Financial work advising the new government to West Germany so there was sort of on the surface level they liked to propagate this idea that okay we are you know we're trying the Nazi criminals we're putting them on trial um but in terms of what's going on behind the scenes there's less of that and also in terms of the economic basis of fascism you know what what actually what was the material basis upon which fascism grew and this was very much the sort of the landed nobility in Germany you know sort of these uh they call them the yonkas the people who own these large landed Estates they were very much a pillar of uh Nazism also the the industrialists the magnates they'd financed Hitler and so in East Germany it was very much an understanding if we want to get rid of Nazis we have to first uh rip it out by the economic Roots you know we have to have a land reform to get rid of this kind of Mobility we have to expropriate the Nazi criminals who were industrialists you know we have to take their companies away and uh give them to the people you know National Assets actually they had referendums on this too you know there was a democratic majority was voting for this and interestingly they also had these kind of referendums in the west but the U.S Administration the military Administration was running Western they actually blocked these initiatives so you had something like two-thirds of popular vote and saying okay we want to nationalize the industries we want even to introduce some form of you know economic planning but the Western administrations basically prevented actually in West Germany went so far that there were you know strikes and protests demanding this and the U.S military actually sent in tanks and tear gas to disperse these you know you always hear about this in the East right you never hear and so this is something that we've been looking at as well I'm just trying to basically you know correct the facts here and fight against this worry one-sided narrative what happened in the West in the East right no totally and it's super important and I'm curious if you guys can talk a little bit about some of the reality of life in the German Democratic Republic because the way it's like if if we're if we hear about it at all it's this idea of oh it was just like this really gray place where everybody just thrusts the same and people live the little boxes and it was like you know just police were all over the place making sure that you couldn't think on your own or do anything on your own when actually a lot of the work that you guys are doing uh is about like you mentioned talking about the aspect of for example Health Care like there is so much to learn from a place like this because despite the fact that it was an economic ruin and Wes the like the way that industry was uh at the time and people can go I really do recommend people go check out the tri-continental uh Institute report that uh your Institute or your Center also took part in putting together uh risen from the ruins but it does that report does go you know somewhat in depth about uh the way that uh there was a many many obstacles economically for East Germany because of the way that you know Marshall Plan and money was flooded into the west then all of these like uh industrialized industrialists like were in the west and all of the industry was in the west and all this stuff it was very difficult for East Germany to like build an economy but they did they had so many economic achievements and they were able to provide people with free education for everybody with Health Care like you mentioned with access to housing and all these sorts of things can you talk a little bit about those achievements and like what we can learn from them uh okay maybe I think you have to to add on methods I might leave leave something out that is important but first of all maybe to um also very much agree with what you have said I think it's important to understand that the foundation that the gdr had to develop on was very difficult it was a very complicated situation uh and when we must not have the idea of a utopian socialist society or whatsoever um but uh of course the gide effectively developed in uh a huge economic base over only 40 years that was able to uh I think it rank up to the 15th biggest economy around the world it was the uh only so-called Western Country where socialism develops so this is something that is also interesting for us looking at the gdr but overall they try to implement a different system a different structure in all kinds in all the layers of society if it's the educational system the Healthcare System but also and this is probably one of the most important of the working structure overall because the fundamental basis of the achievement development of the gdr lies in the expropriation of property and this also developed step by step um to the point that I think in the 80s over 90 percent of the property uh like the productive forces were state-owned and so they developed this kind of planned economy where the workers were able to yeah take a different position a different uh relation to to um the working environment and to the development of the society in a whole and to um ah I'm a little bit uh on a loose foot maybe you can add on something Matthew yeah I think one of the important things to note as well is that you know you asked about light DDA that means actually interestingly a study here last month representative study that they did where they asked sort of East Germans what do they do about Germany today now they're going to be Unified um how do they remember their times in the Diddy out and it came back with actually two-thirds of the people the respondents they said they shared along in the DDR right they they actually were satisfied yeah and uh the the people who are running the study uh and sort of concluded okay it's some kind of Quirk this East German Quirk like authoritarianism uh it also explains why these Germans are not voting for the right wing more so than westerns either more anti-nato and more understanding of Russia's position right so this is the way that the sort of mainstream tries to write it off but the fact is is that life in the gdr was not Jazzy it was not the wall uh I mean those things existed but it was not there was more there was a whole society it means operating and as Max was saying was actually so uh what we try to do also is interview people who were there experiencing it and were also actually participating in society we filmed interviews our website as well with you know doctors um politicians also just people who yeah we're working in the in the in the factories you know um and just to get their side of the story and sort of amplify another perspective which is never really given platform never given space in the current discourse maybe maybe to to bring it down to like one line or something what we often hear of like former gdr citizens what is like one remarkable difference to the life of uh uh the gdr to the the one that they experience in capitalism was that the there was no like fundamental fear of like perspective in your life there was they were ensured that there was education they were insured they had the right to work they had the right for a space of living also for the children and this took a huge like amount of fear and pressure that is so constantly um yeah present in life in capitalism and this is really also something that changed uh somewhat the relations of the people um in the Judy are becoming more of equals you know becoming more of uh um not also fearing the um yeah the the your neighbor or whatsoever but also actually no in your neighbor and being in the same boat so to say and yeah this maybe Sparks a little sense of the life or that the gdr was able to build and it's it's really incredible and then I I before we get to the issue of like these sort of anti-imperialism that was baked into uh the sort of principles of the gdr and the broader conversation slash debate that was taking place uh really across the sort of socialist camp non-aligned Camp around the world before we get to that there's something I I want to I want to pick I want to uh go like elaborate on a little bit that you all brought up and that is I think Matt Matthew you were saying something about how today East Germans are depicted as being just like all these right-wing people who like love the far right love afd and also do have like a higher you know portion of them are more anti-native than others but I'm curious if that if you know I'm curious what the reasons for that are right because there are it is true that in East in the east of Germany there is more of a base of support for certain right-wing parties so of course that exists in the West you but in East Germany that that exists maybe to a higher degree as well as a sort of the anti-natal sentiment you're talking about and I'm wondering if that has anything to do with the collapse of East Germany and the reintegration of Germany the sort of shock therapy that went into that I mean we do know a consequence Across the Western World of neoliberalism and austerity policies is the sort of use of culture wars to you know blame all the wrong you know people and wrong things for the collapse of people's livelihoods and Lifestyles and and all these sorts of things so I'm wondering I guess my question here is can you give a brief overview of what took place during the collapse in 1990 what that meant for the quality of life of people in East Germany as they were exposed to a lot of the kind of shock therapy that we saw across other parts of the former Soviet Union and am I right to to think that that has maybe played a role in the sort of political shift that we've seen among people in East Germany since then yeah I think I think you're very uh right to like draw this kind of connection because it's super ridiculous the gdr in like our media and political discussions always is the the reason for all the that's going on you know they always find some reason to to blame the gdr for all the right Wingers uh or whatsoever that's happening now but it's actually their policy sorry for my wording uh it's it's there it's their policy of impoverishment and of privatization of really uh of also yeah the industrialization and um all of that that yeah that marked a huge break in all of the lives of the former gdr citizens and this is this is definitely um something that uh yeah it's it's deeply integrated into also the consciousness of the Eastern German population uh that um definitely Builds on a more respect skeptical and distance position towards like the elites of uh um politics nowadays it's all it's it's all uh Western politics it's all Western Elites that came to the East and took over took over the factories took over the like political system and so on so they were there was really a process that has many similarities with the process of colonization actually of the East so uh there is definitely a a base of experience that uh distance distances the Eastern population towards uh the nowadays politics and also the experience as you mentioned the anti-natal sentiment that is from what I can tell also uh bigger in the East than it was in the west because these never was part of the NATO the Western Germany actually became a member of the NATO uh just 1955 10 years after the second world war they banned the Communist party also in 1956 and so on so they had this Fierce anti-communist and imperialist policy that led to uh also the socialization of the western population inside this kind of mood and the Eastern population grew up in a very different system where there was a brother brotherly relation built to the Soviet Union and to the Russians to the to the Eastern European peoples you know and so there's uh there's um yeah this this stick by I guess until today Matthew do you have anything you want to add to that or yeah maybe I would add another interesting fact that we discovered when we were doing this uh health research into the Healthcare System the Via because this also relates to the same one sort of this difference between the west and the East and we asked we also had it here in East Germany that the willingness to receive the covet vaccine was much lower the interesting thing was that the willingness to be vaccinated for sort of the general things that you get vaccinated for as a kid was much higher and also like a flu shot was much higher it still is much higher so it's not a it's not an anti-vaxx position that they were they was it was so widespread in the East but it was very much sort of an anti-covered and I would say uh I would argue that you know this is very much crisis of trust not being Edison or in logic and reason but in this system you know you had people coming on the TV here you know corporate representatives of the big pharmaceutical companies say oh you need to take more of these vaccinations it's just not it's not trustworthy you know and so then again this story was sort of carried out that the East Germans you know they're somehow stupid they don't want to get vaccinated anti-science but you know this is just a complete denial of the fact that actually people are upset with the system people are not willing to go along with what the elites are saying in the west anymore because it's just life is actually not uh the what it was always presented to be on the TV when you turned on Western television in East Germany all you saw was you know glamor and wealth and luxury and so on but actually that's not the case so I think these these are just sort of expressions in that effect that's what we need to understand with this kind of IFD voting right-wing um this sort of anti-covert vaccination that I would say I would put it down not to forget that the majority is still the non-voting population yeah well so I guess it's a good time a good point to maybe move towards the issue of all the idea of anti-imperialism as such a crucial part of socialism uh in not just obviously the gdr but like other parts of the Socialist Camp around the world but I'm curious if you this is something that you guys have also done a lot of work on um so can you give I guess a brief overview of this debate that you wanted to talk about that took place during the 1920s that ends up leading to that sort of like basic International principle and practice of of social Estates like the German Democratic Republic and how anti-imperialism was was so Central to all of that yeah so I think again here it's important to maybe start by saying the established narrative is that uh the East Germany and the other social States they were being purely sort of self-interested on the world stage right their foreign policy was very much just uh their own national interests basically um and we kind of wanted to dig deeper and look okay what's actually the theoretical ideological basis of the foreign policy of these states you know can we actually say that they're just acting in their own national interests and basically we quickly uh uh realized that we would have to go back to sort of the debates that were happening in the Communist International it's sort of at this point where these questions of anti-imperialism you know colonization and so on this is where they become practical reality right because you know previously in the second International they'd be discussing these issues but now the October Revolution there was a socialist State on the world stage so it was very much practical discussion how do we actually apply our Theory and uh so they have this these these congresses then that are which then hosted in the Soviet Union and the key sort of Congress that they hold then is in 1920s it's the second Congress and communist International and it's here where they really sort of begin turning their attention towards the east because they realize that you know this revolutionary wave that they saw after the first world war in Europe is now kind of subsiding in Europe and so these anti-colonial struggles in the East they're actually uh you know really sort of becoming a focal point of revolutionary energy you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest you can access it by becoming a breakthrough news member at patreon.com breakthrough news foreign

Channel: BreakThrough News

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Id: hD2u5wosMkc

Length: 30min 44sec (1844 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 03 2023