Exposing the Ruling Class’s Cartoonish History of Socialism, Stalin and WW2

Stalin did uh sign off on like tens of thousands of executions including top ranking Bolsheviks uh who suffered the consequences for the most part of these of these purges one also has to recognize that he had um basically I mean Ludo doesn't put it this way but I would that there was basically a civil war within the Bolsheviks that is not unlike what happened after the French Revolution and and so these configurations are unfortunate you know they're horrific stuff but they do happen post Revolution and and just to um you know say that oh there's just the evil of Stalin doesn't actually explain anything hello everyone I'm r c and this is dispatches over the last century or so Bourgeois elements in politics media and Academia have been hard at work slandering the left in an effort to subvert any true understanding of History they do this by constructing narratives around socialism and communism that lead people to dismiss these terms and what they actually mean as well as the left movements fighting for a better world why is it so important to correct the record how does it apply to the advancement of left movements today joining me to discuss this and more are two guests Henry hakamaki and salvator Ango dimauro co- translators and editors of domino luro Stalin history and critique of a black Legend they're also finishing the translation of another another book an agroecological history of the USSR in Cuba which will be coming out from iscra later this year Henry hakamaki is also an educator activist co-host of the Guerilla History Podcast which I was recently a guest on and an editorial board member of iscra books Salvatore Ango maudo is a professor in the geography Department in Environmental Studies at Sunni new pults a senior editor of the journal capitalism nature socialism reviews editor at the journal human geography and the author or editor of numerous books including socialist States and the environment but before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full interview is available to breakthrough news members only you can become a member at patreon.com breakthrough news and as always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show you can also donate Below on YouTube Henry and salvator welcome to the show thank you it's a pleasure to be on ra it is a pleasure to have you on um and we have so much to talk about um and obviously like we're going to open with what this this uh episode is censured around and that is a lot of the lessons in a book that the two of you uh co-rated and edited um and that is the that is Stalin uh history and critique of a black Legend uh and I know that there's another fourth coming book you guys are working on that will come out which we will get to but let's start with the Stalin book right because Stalin is a figure that elicits many feelings in the west many not good feelings in the west so let's start with what is this book about yeah I think even before we take what this book is about it might be useful to know a little bit about Domenico luro who is the author of this book salvator and I translated and edited it and wrote the introduction for it but it was a book that was written by luro about what a decade and a half ago at this point uh salvator so I'll pitch it over to you to introduce who luro was and then I can pick up with the book I guess sure luro was a um a communist uh activist party member actually of several uh communist parties in Italy um since the the 1991 dissolution of the Italian Communist party and u was a um historian philologist uh philosopher uh who uh taught at University of urbina uh for a long time and um um without going into too many details he he contributed many Works um especially on philosophy but also historiography um and so the book that that we're discussing um was one of of several historiographical works that he contributed um he he was written about Chada as well for example and Lenin so uh I'm not sure I don't think those have been translated into English and hopefully there will be soon enough you know following with our effort um that is the Hope anyway we could start talking about the the the substance of the book I reckon unless there are other want to talk about no I think that we can be we can be brief with losordo right now I'll pick up with the book and feel free salvator to add in anything that I miss so when we're talking about the book Stalin history and critique of black Legend inevitably there's going to be some misconceptions about what this book is the first misconception of what the book is is that it's a biography of Stalin which it is not at all there's almost nothing biographical about Stalin in here this is also not a analysis is of the Stalin Administration as such uh another thing that might that has been presented online in terms of what this book is is some sort of so what is it well the probably the easiest way to put it is that it's a critical media and narrative analysis of Stalin when we're talking about narrative analysis and this is quite important we have to understand that those of us on the left often have narratives constructed about us and about our movements and in this book what lero is doing is he is demonstrating how this narrative this black Legend which U salvator maybe you can talk about a little bit later uh but this black Legend This narrative around Stalin is constructed and how that narrative is then utilized to attack figures other figures on the left or movements on the left equating Stalin with every left figure every left movement and in many ways it's a a complete uncharitable reading of what happened during the Stalin Administration which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more as we get into it but again what this is is Stalin is really a case stud in this book this book is while the book is all about Stalin you know from beginning to end you see Stalin on every page but if you look beneath the surface and I think that this is obviously the more important and more interesting point is that since this isn't a biography or an analysis of the Stalin Administration what are we using this book for it is not to understand Stalin the man it is to understand how The Narrative of Stalin was constructed how that narrative is utilized by bgea elements within Society to attack left movements and by using the example of Stalin one that is frequently weaponized against the left we can then begin to understand why these narratives are constructed how they are utilized and then begin to combat these sort of con falsely constructed narratives and that sounds really important and I want to like I I want you to elaborate on that shortly but first I think that it's really important that um you know that Stalin is the center of this book and there are so many left figures who've been maligned by imperialist institutions media politics Academia so then why Stalin when choosing a case study and I recognize somebody else wrote this book but you know why why focus on Stalin specifically yeah I I'll pick this up salvator if you don't mind I'm sure you'll have plenty to add on here now when we're thinking about the selection of Stalin as a case study because again this book is it's scrutinizing the formation of a black Legend narrative which could be done about other individuals it could be done again about Chay guar it could be done about Mao could be done about Lenin Etc and it has been done so why Stalin in particular and that we have to understand why we are using a case study in the first place so we have to acknowledge that historical figures irrespective of their political affiliations can become subject to misrepresentation and manipul by dominant ideology and that is the ideology of capital bua ideology of capital in this case the narrative surrounding Stalin has been weaponized by those bis political elements to serve their interests by analyzing the construction of this sort of narrative this is really essential to for several reasons the first is that it helps us understand how power structures manipulate historical accounts to maintain their hegemony and that by critically examining this black Legend narrative which again the term black Legend comes from Italian salvator if you want to uh you know when you expound on this take that you can but by examining this narrative we can identify the methods and strategies that are employed by those forces within Society to discredit and undermine alternative perspectives now regarding Stalin specifically we have to recognize that Stalin like other left figures has been malign by imperialist institutions that he was a a significant historical figure who played a crucial role in shaping the political landscape at his time and many other movements around the world it was not only within the Soviet Union that Stalin was used as a Guiding Light something that we've talked about before in other venues so by deconstructing the narrative surrounding him we gain a more comprehensive understanding of the actions that were taken by his administration the decision that were made by his administration contextualizing those historically understanding the forces that were at play that in some cases forced certain decisions to be made in other cases influenced the creation of certain decisions this is historical materialism of course and then separating fact from fiction so just the last thing I'll say before I pass it over to salvator when we're looking at Stalin as a case study some people May and I know some people have raised concerns about potential backlash or resistance to this sort of analysis from people just because we are using Stalin and we luro is using Stalin as the case study but we have to consider the broader implications of this approach and the importance of tackling these complex historical narratives headon we have to recognize that focusing on a high-profile figure like Stalin can provide a more profound impact on public discourse and understanding that we have to understand his significance in shaping shaping the course of history particularly in the context of socialist movements again not just in the Soviet Union but across the globe makes him a particularly relevant subject for study by those of us on the left regardless of what you think about Stalin himself just understanding the significance of Stalin makes him a particular uh particularly useful and important point of study and that by addressing the The Narrative surrounding him were able to challenge dominant discourse and encourage critical thinking about the nature of power and its manipulation of history and that by engaging with con contentious that's the word contentious historical figures allows for a more nuanced examination of underlying power dynamics and ideological conflicts as well as external forces and internal contradictions that are at play that necessitate or Force certain decisions that can be made which in the abstract look monstrous but with contextualization we can begin to understand even if we don't agree with every single decision salvator right I mean uh there's very little I uh I should like to add U said a little bit about what luro himself um faced um when publishing this book and also anybody who uh um um reviewed the book in a in a positive manner uh there there was quite a bit of a kuule uh in Italy about this book um I guess it came out 2009 2011 I can't remember now um and uh and Los was of course as would be expected accused of being um stalinist or being rehabilitating Stalin but of course that's exactly the the opposite of what he was doing was not Rehabilitation as much as a I guess not the opposite but it was a different um a different work Al together meaning as as already Henry uh amply described just a um a critical um appraisal of the representation of um of Stalin as a historical figure and uh to um so to return to your your original question of why why select Stalin because stallion elicits um along with figures like popot you know some of the uh ways in which um within the left as well you have all sorts of um accusations and uh disparagement uh that are decontextualized and uh and not to you know make any intimation that poot and Stalin are in any way similar but those are the figures that are usually elicited in order to bmer uh any any sort of socialist politics uh or to preempt uh maybe or to attempt to preempt their popularity and so there's there's a lot of stake at the current in the current moment but there was already also quite a lot of stake in the uh much earlier in Italy of course there's a in that context you know there's a a strong communist movement tradition uh that with uh with several you know as in any country like several different kinds of communist currents that sometimes they each other's throats um you know uh we have in addition um the the current that a very minor one at the moment anyway but by bordiga one of the founders of the Italian Communist party so you know when when bordia gets marginalized grami is taken up grami's taken up with you know without the the bolik component often times so there's also there's a an ideological struggle that is very important in terms of what constitutes um legitimate um um Socialism or legitimate uh forms of of of communist movements um in terms of principles and applications and whatever so so he luro was was accused of course of rehabilitating staning was there was nothing of the sort but this continues to be um a contentious Topic in that regard because there is this kind of uh almost like allergic reaction by components of um of left of leftist movements particularly in um in the European Union and in North America and um other settler Colonial countries interestingly enough like New Zealand and Australia the kind of allergic reaction to anything that remotely would um cast a Different Light uh about Stalin than absolute evil and uh and so in that respect there's a convergence there's been a convergence for decades between that component of the left and bu dialoges which is really you know unfortunate because that that just uh not only uh repeats um received um um black Legends if you like and I'll expand on that as well in a moment but but it amplifies it even in sectors where that should be like fighting against capitalism so that's you know kind of a bit um self-undermining uh then again just to reiterate what what Henry already was saying but but the the issue of of the black Legend is uh it comes from uh I mean at least in the Italian context um um something that is associated with the Inquisition for instance um so um it's uh it's it's something or a process or or a person that is enveloped in this kind of um mysterious dark um Halo and and and oftentimes it's um it has implications of of uh of very of bloodthirsty behavior and things like that so that's that's what it's um that's what that uh title refers to that doesn't really translate so well into English but um but that's the context in which it was written and that would be I guess the meaning I guess to associate with that title I want to jump into dissecting some of the most common weaponized narratives Within These bisi elements that you're talking about when it comes to the left and I think it's really important to do this because I mean as you all know these narratives are so prevalent that sometimes even people who describe themselves as socialists will perpetuate these narratives about these past figures and what it means about the left it's like they've got like they've been like conditioned to just automatically believe this like list of horrible talking points that they've been told to distribute you know all around all around in their political organizing so what let's start like you know what are some of these talking points and why are they BS basically there's so uh many one could I could start if feel like enry go ahead I mean one of them of course is yeah one of them of course is the uh the issue of um of labor camps um and which is um conflated with gulak which is really a system of of different uh prisons uh of various um levels of um of enforcement and isolation just like in the US um so you have maximum to minimum security so but of course the the term Gulag has has come to represent like like almost like death camps uh which is inaccurate uh even um well it's especially being shown to be in accurate representation by historians whove actually taken up the the archival evidence seriously and it's shown that um that the system was much more complex it had it certainly was brutal in some occasions sometimes the brutality of it had to do with conditions in the in the wider Society not just uh with respect to the prison system itself so it's not to deny that that it was um a very problematic and uh certainly in terms of socialist basic socialist principles um counterveiling of of those very principles and U should not be minimized but at the same time because it's been taken up to suggest that there was a a particular you know specific kind of outcome of what the Socialist Evolution brings because that's basically what implication has been or what the has been stated almost outright then one has to be very careful with those kinds of of terms uh is unfortunate that that on the left you know they they're taken up as um you know as some sort of like cert you know with some sort of certitude about what actually was you know that system of uh prisons the majority of people who lived in in that um prison system actually uh were probably to some extent uh depending on circumstances treated better than most prisoners in the United States uh over the past you know 50 years or so um and um so that's one aspect I mean another aspect one could think about is U the purges which certainly occurred but uh if people are interested in in further study uh I would recommend the work of someone who's not exactly um into communism at all in fact one could even think about him as an anti-communist and that's J Arch gey who is a serious historian who's actually taken up the task of looking at a lot of the archival material and has shown that yeah the purges uh certainly were awful but they were not just from the administration these were also often times coming from below uh from uh Regional administrations as well that pushed well beyond what the Stalin Administration was uh was asking for uh and um one also has to look at you know the historical conditions under this happened as well in which um one often times forgets that the USSR had been attacked by 14 countries including the United States um early on and was under pressure uh from um much of the industrialized countries um then forth and uh and under acts of sabotage so it's it's not like this uh these perses was was coming out of nowhere uh as well I mean they went Way Beyond way out of control control but not necessarily because only because what the St administration were doing they were also responding to an actual situation that doesn't say anything uh positive about the fact that Stalin did uh sign off on like tens of thousands of executions including top ranking Bolsheviks uh who suffered the consequences for the most part of these of these purges one also has to recognize that he had um basically I mean l doesn't put it this way but I would that there was basically a civil war within the Bolsheviks that is not unlike what happened after the French Revolution and and so these configurations are unfortunate you know they're horrific stuff but they do happen post Revolution and and just to um you know say that oh there's just the evil of Stalin doesn't actually explain anything um it doesn't allow us to understand how to prevent it in future if there is to be seriously some sort of social re reolution um so these this is these are aspects of what is at stake by uh with these kinds of um of I guess tropes uh one other thing I guess I could add and surely you know if you want to Henry please add but uh is the um you the notion that under the Stalin Administration um you know they had environmental want and environmental destruction um which is actually yeah it did happen but uh in fact in bance it was the net opposite of what people think and so again environmental historians have actually been showing um the opposite to to have been the tendency it is very curious especially coming out of a left from the United States you know to think of the Stalin Administration that way when they live in a country where you know all these sort of leftist movements have achieved so little in terms of Environmental Protection and still do uh so it's you know things are not Rosy but uh they're complex uh but they're not to be completely diminished or completely dismissed if one really wants to learn about uh what is feasible in what kind of historical conjuncture because that's also what is at stake here you know uh it's not just um you know about um it's not really about stalling it's about what is feasible when in what circumstances and understanding you know from the past experiences uh what happened that was awful what happened that was actually really good good and constructive and then how to avoid the stuff that is awful um but again by just focusing on a on on on a representation of the or or an image of a of an individual is not very helpful in finding these things out and in trying to Grapple with these uh kinds of problems that did exist and had been exaggerated in the negative sense um and continues to be so in the pr and repeated on the left yeah I'll save I'll hop in uh I'll save the environmental side of things for a little bit later because I know that we'll be talking about that again soon talking about the upcoming book that you and I are putting together salvator right now you mentioned the Civil Wars lto actually does address this in the book uh very briefly he calls it the three Civil Wars I'm going to read just a very small tract from this and then I'm going to address some of the other things that salvator said as well as Branch out a little bit I'll try to be brief so we're regarding the three Civil Wars lero says if we this is on page 88 of the book uh by the way if you pick up the book you can get the PDF for free on iscra books.org our publisher is all volunteer run uh and they also make every book that they do available for free as a PDF so you can pick up a physical copy like this or you can just download the PDF whatever is more feasible for you but anyway page 88 uh bottom of page 88 if we do not want to remain prisoners of the caricatured portrait of Stalin drawn by trosky and by husv in the course of two different but equally bitter political struggles we must not lose sight of the fact that the events that began in October 1917 were characterized by three Civil Wars the first saw the revolution clashing with the variegated for front of its enemies supported by the capitalist Powers committed to containing the Bullit contagion by all means necessary the second develops from a revolution from above and outside which despite some pushes from below from The Peasant World substantially consists in the collectivization of Agriculture the third is that which tears the Bolshevik ruling group apart which is what salvator was referring to now one of the things that I think that we have to do is dispel with this great man of theory narrative which is something that is often done in some places Loro does look at it from this perspective but kind of from the opposite perspective what I mean by that is that as historical materialists we understand that a great man of History theory of looking at how history works or historiographic method is going to leave you really wanting in terms of analytic capacity we have to understand that all of these movements were powered by mass L movements even if you don't like the person who's at the head of it there was mass movement From Below in basically all of these cases not just in the casee of Stalin but you know pick any movement so looking at it from a great man of History perspective is going to leave you wanting but boua elements while looking at their own Society from a great man of theory perspective a great man of History perspective like George Washington Abraham Lincoln you know who freed the slaves Abraham Lincoln of course no the emancipation of enslaved peoples was led by the enslaved peoples resisting against their own enslavement it was only his pen that people pay attention to that is great man of History Theory unfortunately the B elements of society take the same tract in terms of looking at their perceived enemies and in this case Stalin they perceived Stalin as some all powerful he made every single decision he did every single thing by himself every single purched person was personally executed by Stalin's own hand if not by you know if not not by gun than by pen at least we also have people who are on the left that also slip into this great man of History theory in terms of Stalin was a great person and everything that happened good in the Soviet Union was because of him I know when we talk about the environment salvator you probably talk about the aforestation uh campaigns of the Soviet Union and some people who are committed socialists or Communists and are willing to concede that this environmental policy was extremely successful and it happened largely during the Stalin Administration people who are dogmatic in their support of Stalin will still take a great man of History Theory and say well it was because of Stalin himself that this campaign took place not that it was some mass movement that came up but in terms of narrative and I I guess I I'll try to be very brief now because that went on longer than I was intending I apologize R but within this book you can think of many of the narratives that are you know accused against Stalin salvator mentioned the purges mentioned the gulags of course we have the so-called homore and I don't say so-called because there wasn't a famine there certainly was I say that because why are we using a Ukrainian word when uh there was many regions of the Soviet Union that suffered substantially from this famine particularly Kazakhstan why are we not using a kazakhstani word for this famine why why do why does everybody try to portrayed as a genocide against the Ukrainian people and not just a broader social famine uh that occurred at this period of time again political purposes we know the answer we talk about anti-Semitism within this book again we lero talks about anti-Semitism the accusations of anti-Semitism against Stalin it talks about this uh you know perceived alliance with Hitler it looks at the twin pillars so-called twin pillars of Hitler and Stalin this conflation of totalitarianism the artian uh you know theory of well totalitarianism is totalitarianism and well Stalin and Hitler were both totalitarian and therefore in some way they are related to one another which of course is a stupid Theory I mean it's just moronic but even if we're looking at like Molotov ribbon trov it's not something that was dwell upon too heavily in the book but it's something that's talked about within Society all the time well why did Stalin sign this pact with Hitler again decontextualizing it from history not looking at the pressures that were on the Soviet Union the fact that they were facing Invasion and also not looking at the fact that the other Western Powers were doing the exact same thing in 1933 the UK France and Italy signed the four powers pact with Nazi Germany in 1934 Poland signed the Hitler pil uh pilsudski PCT in 1935 the UK signed the anglo-german naval agreement uh in 1938 in September the UK signed the German British non-aggression pact December 38 France signed the German French non-aggression paack etc etc etc I have many more examples why was it only the molotov ribbon trop PCT of August 1939 that's focused on in terms of this so-called alliance with Hitler that's not to say that you know we can just say it was a great idea but we have to contextualize it that's something that's done we contextualize it in terms of what were the external pressures and then also look at these other countries that people do not have criticisms for why is it that they criticize one but not the other it's politics absolutely absolutely and I think all that's so important but I want to talk a little bit about like why it is now because Devil's Advocate right I could sit here and say to you okay fine it's that's great that like you want to talk about all these things that happened in the 30s and 40s and um and correct the record but why does it matter now and I mean one reason I think that's important and I want you to elaborate on this is you know when somebody mentions I mean this is the whole point right is when somebody mentions Socialism or communism it provokes this automatic attack and then like demands for denunciations of like gags and purges and then it changes the conversation from the ideological issue of why we want Socialism or communism I mean what comes to mind automatically I don't want to sit here and like credit AOC with being a socialist because I don't think she actually is but right when we all remember when she was running and won her election the first time around and she made the rounds on like CNN and all these different media Outlets they were all losing it because she was using the word socialist describing herself as a Democratic Socialist when Bernie Sanders was running same thing you know everybody wants to talk about gags and purges and how could you and they would like literally be like don't well how how can you call yourself this because Stalin like it was the most cartoonish example of essentially everything you're talking about I'm not trying to answer my own question here I want you to like really explain why but yeah like why go back and correct the record on all these things like who cares if we remember a famine being different than it actually was why does it matter if capitalist uh media and Academia and these you know institutions of of Empire uh have this version of history that isn't actually true what does it like have to do with 2024 you know in oh sorry go ahead sorry I love when that happens well I wanted to share something that coincidentally I I was reading um in um just um this week and it's from uh the collected works of Marx angles I hope that's not too cheesy but um just in terms of but I just it just struck me that wow it's still relevant today and this is um um the supplement to numbers 335 and 336 of the alburg algam titong on the commissions on the of the Estates in Prussia basically Marx was as a journalist was responding to a lot of nonsense coming from the Bourgeois press of the day this is 1842 and he and he and he writes this marvelous paragraph in my view like what makes the press the most powerful lever for promoting culture and the intellectual education of the people is precisely the fact that it transforms the material struggle into an ideological struggle the struggle of flesh and blood into a struggle of mind the struggle of need desire empiricism into a struggle of theory of reason of form um yeah and this 1842 I think he he certainly got what the what the importance is um yeah the terrain of ideological struggle right it's um that's what it's about in a lot in a lot of ways and in the United States one of the major ways in which the the uh you know any socialist or communist movement have been suppressed is through uh manipulating the media um and so well that also speaks volumes about the importance of of your work actually R so thank you for doing what you're doing it's really like I mean wow no I don't know but it's it's it's crucial work uh it's part of the ideological struggle that that you were describing as well um it's every time there is uh any chance for a socialist movement particularly in in a uh in a country like the United States or it could be the UK or France or whatever anytime you have a socialist movement that is a genuine socialist movement that is making Headway politically you're going to uh you should expect to have um repression but but also uh um a huge emphasis on the ideological component and so the the recent resolution was it last year that came out which was one of the most fascinating ridiculous resolutions I've read so far from Congress there are so many but uh This One S is kind of top 10 in which they had this anti-socialism re resolution signed on by many uh you know Democratic party members as well and you know if you look at that uh they lump basically everything they can I remember this oh my gosh sorry I just I just I'm remembering this I forgot this happened it's so not such nonsense but yeah please continue no it's it's part of it's of the uh you know the fear I suppose that the ruling classes have of having um a popular socialist movid that actually will change things and and possibly depose their rule um and so they're reacting to this um just like the the memorial to the 100 million you know victims of Communism this is another Trope that that is banded about which I've actually written about myself and just to show that even if you buy into 100 million uh that is I tiny drop of deaths compared to capitalism but you know um but in any case it's based on on a fiction uh in terms of because you because sorry because you mentioned the salvator I just have to note a couple sentences from this resolution oh great yes February 2023 so this is a little over a year ago congress with many Democrats supporting it passed a resolution it's literally called denouncing the horrors of socialism and then it says whereas socialism has repeatedly led to famine and mass murders and the killing of over a hundred million people worldwide whereas many of the greatest crimes in history were permitted by socialist ideals included Vladimir including Vladimir lennin Joseph Stalin ma zong Fidel Castro paulp Kim Jong Kim Jong-un Daniel Ortega Hugo Chavez and Nicholas Maduro and of course hore is mentioned as well it goes on to talk about the greatly for and China North Korea is bad Cambodia oh my God don't even get us started you guys and Cuba how dare they take land from people oh my it just goes Venezuela's evil it just goes on and on and on and then it quotes James Madison at the end anyway slave driver yeah but I think just noting that that that resolution was passed in 2023 is very important that you brought that up just because that is of course one way that like you see that all of those talking points that you mentioned in a very stupid way are being presented by the most insane like uh chamber of power in America which is the US Congress but please continue no I it's just one of uh I of many of many kinds of examples were canw from um within the past decade and um and so that hence the importance of uh in some respects I mean relative importance I should say of um and I'll explain that in b of of works like lur does in terms of countering um with empirical evidence uh and debunking basically all of these um charges that are really founded on uh either exaggerations o uh of uh certain things that did happen that were wrong but wildly exaggerated um one one instance for example the the the uh the deaths um that are supposed to be um laid at at at Stalin personally of all the the prisoners who died like in the tens of millions actually it's maybe three million if you push it uh according to the archives and a lot of those deaths had to do with um famines throughout the country that also to had to do with World War II in some respects as well so all of that is completely excised from View and so um I say relative because um you know uh it's it's um you know the media representations uh the the forces Behind these media representation I mean are are not immune from these debunkings but they can count on uh the fact that they control most of the media and so they they have a megaphone and so uh it takes additional effort on PE you know on people to find things out to even hear about lur Do's work for example and so again I come back to uh the yes honorable work that you're doing R in diffusing uh information to counter these views it's extremely important um but you know part of the the the the struggle is with debunking Point by Point all of these charges but the other part of the struggle is to uh gain media prominence and to be able to diffuse the message uh far and wide U because otherwise it's um you know one can academics are more or less you know Irrelevant in some respects you know without without the diffusion of their findings yeah just to hop in and you know R you practically answered the question in your question uh so you know you're right on no no you're right on it and and salvator that quote from Marx who would have guessed that Marx would be on the ball uh you know I never would have thought that he his finger would still be on the pulse who's this guy who's this guy you guys keep talking about he sounds kind of Carl marks guy I don't know you know I used to live in his hometown that's a story for another day and of course now I live in the the city where Lenin first went to University again different story L denounced in the congress bill denouncing socialism yes that's right no when I say Lennon of course I'm not talking about George lenon uh people I am or John Lennon Sorry God I can't even get my beetles right uh okay sorry let's uh take a step back here and get back to politics where I'm much more at ease Let's uh put it that way okay so your question Ra was essentially why are we still talking about Stalin in 2024 why is this book important why are we using Stalin as a case study now that's an excellent question in itself in terms of if we want to be moving forward to the future why are we still trying to you know take these figures from the past well Stalin himself and I say this cards on the table as a Marxist leninist who lives in Russia yes I know folks if you already if you just ordered the book when I mentioned it last time half of you are now returning it uh I I apologize to my comrades at iscra you know anytime somebody hears I live in Russia it's like but anyway uh talking about Stalin obviously I have an ideological prediliction for him but that is not the point the point is not that we need to be embracing the figure of Stalin even though here in Russia he's still very popular I will have you know he's uh based on some recent polls the third most popular political figure in Russia and the Soviet Union's history behind only Peter the Great and Katherine the Great just you know FYI people he is very popular are not watching enough CNN that's yeah right I mean who would have thought CNN uh if only they would be watching CNN or Radio free CIA but uh in any case Stalin the figure is not that important what the reason that we're looking at Stalin is is that Stalin is used as a cudel against the left in 2024 it's not that Stalin was an individual of the left that we have to perfectly emulate of course not you know I again ideologically I align with Stalin uh that's not why I worked on this book I worked on this book because Stalin is used as a cudel a false narrative in many ways of Stalin is used as a cudel so why are these narratives still being weaponized well weaponized narratives are propagated by the boua elements of society like I've talked about many times as a weapon against the left for multiple purposes including maintaining the status quo discrediting any Progressive ideas like you mentioned R when you mentioned AOC or Bernie Sanders these people are not my comrades they're not Marxist leninists but as soon as they say you know maybe people shouldn't pay out of pocket for University Stalin comes up that's the immediate charge against them is you are Stalin for trying to make people not have to pay out of pocket for University as well as you know again perpetuating dominant ideology is the part the primary reason for using Stalin as a battering ram these talking points are so pervasive that even individuals who identify as socialists in some cases knowingly and some cases unknowingly perpetuate them and I think that that's the most worrying thing is that you know we see all of these members of DSA for example who are the most willing people to utilize The Narrative of Stalin against people to their left right that just perpetuates these these narratives that are dominant within Society we have to understand why these narratives are problematic for those of us who are in left movements we have to analyze the common talking points that arise from them and the underlying objectives of when we talk about Socialism or communism what are the narratives that we often hear socialism leads to economic stagnation and inefficiency again decontextualizing it from any external pressures if we're talking about Cuba we are not talking about the blockade by we I mean the media in the west I know I am not in the west and I am not the media but you know what I mean when I say the collective we that's the narrative that's in in popular Society we don't talk about the blockade on Cuba we only talk about the the fact that there's economic stagnation in Cuba what really I wonder why you know Venezuela same thing North Korea same thing um you know the Soviet Union they would still claim that there was economic stagnation despite the fact that if you look at the actual economic metrics of the Soviet Union the growth in economic efficiency and production exploded once the Soviet Union came in and it you know ceased being the Russian Empire another narrative that's often weaponized socialism suppresses individual freedoms personal Liberties again this is something that when it's weaponized it's often because we think of again we the collective we in terms of narrative and Society uh this great man Theory Stalin himself is choking your freedoms he himself is ensuring that you don't have the right to speech or the Press not thinking about societal freedoms not thinking about freedoms at work not thinking about freedoms from the shackles of bis capitalist Society imperialist capitalist Society that's not even going into the question of settler colonialism which is a question for you know perhaps not right now but something that absolutely is worth addressing at some point another question or another talking point that comes up communism results in totalitarian regime again this Hannah artian uh thinking which is taken up whole cloth by both liberals and conservatives within the country and even some of those people that are kind of squishy on the left this Association of socialism and communism with authoritarian rule then allows for an equation with fascism this uh again overlooks the ideological basis and the desired outcome of these Societies in just subsuming any goal that they may have to some perceived authoritarian impulse with of within that Society or another uh narrative socialism is the same thing as State Control this is a particularly pernicious uh you know narrative again talking about things like healthc care why why would the government try to look at you know take over Healthcare within the country that is socialis and if you have socialism then that's authoritarian and if you have authoritarian these narratives feed into one another so by looking at how left ideology is equated with authoritarianism it's stripped from any historical context uh exploits the fear of totalitarianism and in many ways it capitalizes on generational differences uh between old and young and and also um capitalizes on differences between the global North and Global South they by conflating all of these things and playing these things off one another they are perpetuating this dominant ideology within Society stemming from the vilification and the narrative building of figures such as Stalin and probably foremost Stalin and that's why this work is important in 2024 not that we're trying to expunge the record of Stalin again I'm a Marxist leninist you don't have to be to find this to be a very interesting or useful work if you are anywhere on the left and you have heard the term the the name Stalin weaponized against you or weaponized against any of your movements or weaponized against any reform or revolutionary uh tactic that you have been associated with this book is intended for you if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest you can access it by becoming a breakr news member at patreon.com breakthrough news

Channel: BreakThrough News

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Length: 50min 35sec (3035 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 03 2024