DVD+R and DVD-R; What was that about?

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Always up for Technology Connections!

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 77 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/Roofofcar šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 29 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

I usually like this guy's videos, but I have to admit I couldn't force myself to care about this one past like 5 minutes.

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 37 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/8008135__ šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 29 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

Can somebody give me a tldw?

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 25 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/Sleeper____Service šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 29 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

Ya i always wondered wtf this was about good vide lol

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 4 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/[deleted] šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 29 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

Only one of the two had the ability to specifically set the book type, you could set it so your DVD player could absolutely read the disc, but not all dvd drives in computers could read the disc once it was burned.

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 2 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/sopwath šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 29 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

I've done work archiving media art, most of which are burned on DVDs and it was always so annoying having to note that there was a difference between the two.

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 1 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/CaravelClerihew šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 30 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

ā€œ...and some other one-offs.ā€

Slam on minidiscs out of nowhere!

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 1 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/shadowban_this_post šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 30 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

I freaking love this channel

please send all complaints to "Las Quejas"

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 1 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/Shenaniganz08 šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ Apr 30 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies

Does anybody here remember getting the sales pitch for buying a Divx player over a DVD player? And did anybody bite?

šŸ‘ļøŽ︎ 1 šŸ‘¤ļøŽ︎ u/pixelburner šŸ“…ļøŽ︎ May 01 2020 šŸ—«︎ replies
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Remember when computers were old and lame and you needed to put your data on some sort of removable optical disc like a lame and old person? I sure do. That was a fun process! Sessions. Burning. What do you want to do with this disc? Tables of contents. [ sound of disc drive spinning up ] Finalizing. Disc write failed. Oh the memories... (and cor cor cor corrupted ones!) orrupted ones!) [dial-up modem sounds in background] Thanks to the internet and cheap flash media the use of discs in PCs is essentially over. But there was a time when you had oh so many options of write once read many discs you could buy by the spindle. Youā€™ve got your olā€™ reliable compact disc recordable, because really who needs more than 700 megabytes how could you possibly ever fill that? And for those weirdos who might want to write things to a disc and then erase them so you can write more things later youā€™ve got your compact disc re-writables. But in the late ā€˜90s, there was this new thing cominā€™ ā€˜round the mountain. The DVD. Yeah, I know, 4.7 gigabytes? It's absurd! Anyway, eventually your precious CD burner you spent all that money on was obsolete because thereā€™s DVD burners now you absolute dweeb! Get with it! But for a short while, choosing a DVD burner wasnā€™t that easy. Because, thanks to the fact that format wars are apparently irresistible, there were two competing versions of writable DVD. Becauseā€¦ thatā€™s what this video is about. If you remember seeing DVD+R next to DVD-R, you might have wondered what the heck that was all about. Was there really a difference between them? Well, to the user, not really much at all, but the two were technically very different (and thus incompatible) because they were created by two different companies. Thatā€™s right, somehow, within the very format of DVD, there was a format war! Ugh. Humans. Before we get too far Iā€™d like to point out that a while ago I made a video about the objectively way cooler DVD-RAM which is somehow older than both -R and +R and way more capable when it comes to data storage. You can find it through that clicky thing there. But possibly thanks to wanting to make DVDs with your computer that you could watch with a DVD player, the much less cool write-once read-many formats were soon to follow and dominate the landscape. And their re-writable versions, of course. Oh, and also, lots of people apparently misremember the plus vs. dash debacle as being a thing with CDs, but thatā€™s some Mandela effect stuff going on as there was never a CD+R. Justā€¦ so you know. Alright. Quick recap of the history of optical discs. In the beginning, there was Laserdisc. Then there was the Compact Disc. Then there were also weird one-offs. And then there was the DVD. The end. OK but really hereā€™s the thing you gotta remember. The leap from Laserdisc to CD was significant because it made the optical disc digital for the first time. Most formats after that, though, were simply revisions or improvements to the same fundamental technology. Maybe weā€™ll change the color of the laser. Maybe weā€™ll use dyes instead of pits. And maybe weā€™ll harness the Power of the Third Dimension and stick a second translucent data layer below the reflective one. But in every single optical disc format, itā€™s a shiny disc read by a laser and decoded digitally based upon how that laser gets reflected back all blinky blinky. So, given that each new format was just building on the last one, how do you create a new format? Why, with intellectual property. And in the land of intellectual property, how are you gonna differentiate yourself? Why, with meticulously documented format specifications and licensing, of course! Weā€™re not gonna let you stick our precious little logo on there unless you follow these instructions and pay us money. And of course, with all the various electronics companies of the world just drooling at the chance of licensing revenue, but especially Sony, there was potentially gonna be a problem with this next generation of optical disc. Without some sort of agreement between all of the companies, there could be a slew of proprietary nonsense going on and we do not want that. In fact, in the years leading up to DVD, there was a competing standard! The Super Density disc. Which, as we explored in this video, lives on as the weirdly disc-centric logo in the not-at-all forced Secure Digital format because if thereā€™s one thing Toshiba is good at itā€™s gettinā€™ their moneyā€™s worth from graphic design! Anyway, as we explored in that video we have the computer industry to thank for refusing to adopt the next generation of optical disc unless everybody could agree on what it was gonna be. So, in 1996, the DVD Consortium was formed by a whole bunch of companies that agreed to all do the same thing. And they came up with the technical specifications of the DVD, and this was also where DVD-RAM came from. And everything was good with the world all the way until 1997 when Sony did what Sony does best and decided theyā€™d like to do their own thing thankyouverymuch. Yes, in 1997 Sony (along with Philips and Thomson, so yes itā€™s not fair to say this was Sonyā€™s idea ... but letā€™s be real it probably was) created the DVD+RW Alliance. Their mission was to be a thorn in the sides of the world at large. Iā€™m kidding, of course. Their mission was to create a better writable and rewritable version of DVD. And they did it by using what they at least marketed as a more robust method of recording. Just as a quick recap, commercially made discs are molded or pressed with teeny tiny pits and lands on their inside reflective surface, which when you shine a laser at, cause the reflected light to come back at two different intensities thanks to destructive interference caused by the depth of the pit. This change in intensity can then be decoded as digital information. With a recordable disc, the effect of the pits is recreated by burning tiny spots onto a field of heat-sensitive dye. The spots that get heated by the writing laser darken. And this means that when read back, the dark spots absorb some of the reading laserā€™s light, producing the same effect as a pit in a commercially made disc. But a blank recordable DVD (or really any recordable optical disc) is never truly blank. For a whole bunch of reasons you canā€™t simply have a disc with a layer of heat-sensitive dye and expect a DVD burner to produce a usable result. All optical media formats, regardless of whether theyā€™re recordable or not, rely on some sort of tracking from the laser. Usually the laserā€™s objective lens is sort of floating, and electromagnets in the laser assembly will move it up and down as well as left and right in order to closely track the stream of pits and lands flying past it. You see the disc being read isnā€™t ever truly flat. Neither is the hole in the middle perfectly centered. And even if it were, the spindle holding onto the disc sure ainā€™t manufactured well enough for that to matter. Therefore, to follow a stream of microscopic pits and lands whizzing past the laser on a flexible cheaply-made plastic disc, ya gotta get a little wiggly. This was the basis by which the original PlayStationā€™s copy protection worked, which you can find out more about in this older video of mine. Thatā€™s the third plug this video, must be a record! And so on a blank disc, youā€™ll find a pre-made guide of sorts. The disc may be blank but the disc drive needs to have some sort of target to aim at in order to burn the data correctly. This target is a microgroove molded into the plastic of the disc which travels the entire length from beginning to end. And this groove is wobbly. Some might say wiggly. To ensure the disc is spinning at the correct speed, this track wiggles back and forth at a fixed rate relative to the rotation of the disc. And it turns out that this wiggling is the main thing separating the dashes from the pluses. DVD-Rs use a wobbling frequency of 140.6 kilohertz, whereas DVD+R uses a frequency of 817.4 khz. Thatā€™s way more hertz. But in addition to being objectively wobblier, DVD+R changed how the addresses on the disc are pre-recorded. Or rather, it used a suspiciously similar method to that which our old friend the CD-R used. In a CD-R, that wobbling is frequency modulated so that it not only serves as a speed reference and target but also encodes at what point along the groove the drive is writing. This is called the Absolute Time in Pre-groove or the ATIP. On a DVD+R or RW, the same general method is used, although it is called Address in Pre-groove or ADIP (to make it less obvious that itā€™s the same thing) and the address information is bi-phase modulated rather than frequency modulated. Knowing where you are along the discsā€™s length is helpful for ensuring the data is being recorded in the right place, and not just at the correct pace. This is especially helpful for when you want to burn more data to a disc at a later point. But the original flavor DVD-R as envisioned by Pioneer only used the wobble for maintaining pace. Its wobble was constant with no modulation at all. For positional information, a series of so-called ā€œland pre-pitsā€ were moulded into the groove at various points. So, rather than getting a constant positional reference from the ADIP, a DVD dash R only gives absolute references periodically, and so a drive writing to one relies on counting the wobbles between the land pre-pits to maintain positional awareness. Now, that worked! But Sony and Philips apparently felt that it wasnā€™t precise enough for their liking. By going with the ADIP, which again is the same basic idea as the ATIP used previously in the CD-R which ... by the way who developed that? Oh! Sony and Philips. Look at that... the DVD+R and DVD+RW allowed a drive writing to it to know more precisely where it was writing. Whichā€¦ to the end user meantā€¦ not a lot. There were some very small differences to be seen, such as the fact that the -R varieties needed more of a buffer between sessionsā€¦ and thus waste a few megabytes between each one... but really thatā€™s probably the only significant difference you might notice as a user. If you even do. If this sounds like Sony and Philips felt that the land pre-pit method that Pioneer had come up with for the DVD-R wasnā€™t good enough for some arbitrary reason and decided that a much better method would be the one they themselves had created for the CD-R in 1988, thatā€™s because thatā€™s probably exactly what happened. At least, to my ears. It seems more than a little suspicious to me that two of the founding members of the +RW Alliance happened to be the same two that wrote the ATIP specifications in the Orange Book about a decade before. But perhaps Iā€™m being a little too conspiratorial. Now it may not seem like it, but this created an actual format war. At leastā€¦ briefly. It took The Alliance a pretty long while to release the Plus standard - it didnā€™t come out until 2002. But these discs had no compatibility with previously existing recorders. Because DVD+ discs didnā€™t have land pre-pits, a drive designed for DVD-R wouldnā€™t know what to do with one and thus couldnā€™t burn to it. And since a DVD-R disc had a constant wobble, a drive made for DVD+R would have the same lack of direction and couldnā€™t burn to it. A frustrating problem. But also a very easy to solve problem because it was really just a matter of software. There was no reason a drive couldnā€™t write to both. It just needed to know how to handle both the ADIP of the DVD+R and the land pre-pits of -R. The actual burning process is the same, and so is the finished disc to any DVD player or other drive. Itā€™s just a slight technical difference that separates the two formats, but since weā€™re dealing with licensing, that makes all the difference. For a rather brief time, you might have come across a drive which paid its dues to the DVD Consortium (now the DVD Forum, by the way) but not to Sony and Philips and their so-called Alliance. You couldnā€™t use this amazing DVD+ media that Sony is trying really hard to convince you is better. And maybe you bought a drive from Sony that, through sheer spite (and perhaps their own financial incentives) didnā€™t support DVD- media and you were stuck with the plus. But this was stupid and everybody knew that so thankfully DVD Multi drives quickly appeared on the market which just went ahead and paid both the Allaince and the Forum so they could write to both. As early as 2004, just two years after Plus made it to the market, you pretty much didnā€™t need to care if you were using DVD- media or DVD+ media. Yet, both were still available (and still are!) Why? Well because anything made before 2002 canā€™t write to + discs. And because the Alliance apparently did a fairly good job convincing people that plus had its pluses so it became fairly popular. One plus that plus may have legitimately had was that the discs were cheaper to make. This could have been the entire reason Sony and Philips broke off from the Forum to form their Alliance. Looking through some older articles on whether you should choose plus or (as was often incorrectly called) "minus" media, it seems that plus discs were cheaper. And this kinda makes sense. The ADIP was molded into the plastic, just like the ATIP was, so really a DVD+R is the same exact thing as a CD-R but with different dyes and construction. The land pre-pits on a DVD-R were likely more complicated to manufacture. They are really, really tiny. It seems they are much smaller than a pit on a commercial disc, in fact they were intended to be so small as to essentially be invisible to a drive reading a disc with data on it. They would only be the faintest of blips, detectable only when the disc was blank. It may have been the case that these tiny structures required more precision, and thus the discs were more expensive to produce than the DVD plus format. But, at least today, the pricing between the formats is virtually identical. Whether or not manufacturing cost was the reason Sony and Philips went and threw the Orange Book at Pioneer, itā€™s clear that this was mainly a format war of spite. The DVD Forum refused to accept DVD Plus as a legitimate form of DVD for some years. And this led the DVD+RW alliance to make their own logo since they couldnā€™t use this one. And the geniuses over there decided to make this their logo. So, these DVD+R discs from Philips, which are not rewritable, nevertheless contain this RW badge on them. Thatā€™s not confusing at all. But in January of 2008, the Forum gave in and said, fine, you can be a DVD. So I guess at that point the format war was officially over. This really was the dumbest format war because it wasnā€™t ever really a thing. It was all just technicalities. Aside from really early adopters, it didnā€™t affect consumers other than being mildly confusing. Now, DVD Plus is claimed to have a number of advantages over DVD dash. One of which is that you donā€™t have to keep yourself from saying ā€œminusā€ every time you see this. Really, we should just be calling them "DVD R" but thanks to the plus we canā€™t. But whether those actually mattered to anybody is highly debatable. For instance, one limitation of DVD- media is that it only had the space for 7,088 unique power calibration events, meaning you could only record to a single disc 7,088 unique times. Is my sarcasm coming through strong enough? DVD Plus increased that to a cool 32,768 times. Yeah. Real good. Real factor-of-two. And thanks to the more-precise ADIP (and a few other technical technicalities), it is possible that DVD+ might be on the whole more reliable than DVD-. But itā€™s hard to know which of Sonyā€™s -er the Allianceā€™s - various claims regarding its betterness are objectively true and which are just marketing. ā™« jaunty music ā™« these words aren't important right now yes let's get back to it Because, and hereā€™s the thing I want to stress again, the only differences between the two formats can be found when the disc is being written to. Once the data has been laid down, the ADIP and the land pre pits areā€¦ irrelevant. And that means that some of plusā€™s claimed advantages just donā€™t matter for some applications. For instance, say youā€™re using your computer to make a bunch of mastered DVD-video discs of your home movies to watch in a DVD player. Those discs will be burned in one fell swoop, so the addressing advantages of the ADIP in a DVD+ really donā€™t apply. If youā€™re using a disc like a flash drive and burning a bunch of small files to it, a DVD+R might have been a better choice. But honestly, itā€™s hard for me to say that with confidence. I mean, at this point itā€™s not like it matters anyway, but the only way to determine if DVD+ was more reliable would be to compare failed burns or other mishaps with those of DVD-. If you were doing that back in the day, let us know in the comments and weā€™ll see if there really was a difference. But as far as practical differences to the consumer, for the most part there weren't any! There really wasnā€™t anything plus could do that dash couldnā€™t. It was all down to technical minutia. But since there was a time when you could purchase a disc drive (or DVD recorder) which only worked with one or the other, both remained on sale, needlessly confusing the majority of us with multi-compatible drives. And giving Sony yet another licensing income stream. Presumably. Maybe not... But they are Sony. Well, thanks for watching! Since this is a video about media types and there are surely two camps which ardently prefer one over the other, Iā€™m sure the comments will be completely harmless. For what itā€™s worth, for many years I used this trusty Panasonic DMR-ES40V for making DVD copies of VHS tapes for my family and others. At least for that application, DVD-R seemed to be less of a fuss than DVD+R. But maybe this is some sort of outlier. And really this is why this whole format war was so dumb. This is from 2004, and it supports Plus, Dash, and RAM. Given that there wasnā€™t anything unique you could do with plus, its existence is a little frustrating. Perhaps it was more reliable, and articles of the time suggest that it was, but unless somebody did some sort of study comparing the reliability, my experience suggests the difference was marginal at best. And again, the technical differences only matter when the disc is being burned. Once the data is on there the ADIP or the Land Pre Pits are completely invisible. Unless of course youā€™ve designed some sort of copy protection which looks for them on a disc to determine if it wasnā€™t original. Which was a thing. Maybe I should make a video about thatā€¦ ā™« confusingly smooth jazz ā™« Hi! [clears throat] Before we get too ffā€¦ before we get too far, Iā€™d like.. Mmhmā€¦ blehā€¦ ...and their rewritable formats of cou ā€¦ AHH! Versions. Oooh. Then there were also weird one-offs. Then there was the dbdbā€¦ ahhh ...we will harness the THIRD dimension and stick a second translucent dataā€¦ de.. uehhhhh. Just as a [weird noise] just.. [laughs] It seems more than a little suspicious to me that the two foundingā€¦ blergh! Two of the... Tiny pits and lands on their inside reflective surface. When you shine a laā€¦ That wasnā€™t the end of the sentence. Not gonna lie, the bloopers weren't that great this time, were they? I mean, it's nice for MY benefit when there aren't a lot, but it sure makes the end less fun. Note to self: Screw up more bwaaaaaaaa do do do doo
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Channel: Technology Connections
Views: 1,303,772
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Length: 20min 26sec (1226 seconds)
Published: Wed Apr 29 2020
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