Dr. Shabir Ally Debate March 26,2016

in the name of God the most gracious the most merciful good evening ladies and gentlemen brothers and sisters boys and girls welcome to the Islamic information and Dawa centres free monthly lecture series entitled Islam and other religions tonight's topic what does it mean to be human for more information about the Islamic Dawa and information center information and data center please guests enter and about our events and further events please go to Islamic information and slam infocomm my name is sasha purse and it is my honor and my pleasure to be your emcee and moderator for tonight so how is everybody tonight you guys the way cuz this is this thing on how is everybody tonight one more time how is everybody tonight all right all right hum did it laughs I would like to extend a very warm welcome for everybody coming out for those tuning in via our internet broadcast we appreciate you taking your time and your busy schedule to join us for tonight's event tonight I ask everybody to please listen to the speakers sincerely with an unbiased unbiased mind open ears and heart also please save any remarks and any questions for the question and answer service and write them down right now I probably ask themselves well how are the questions going to be asked how is it gonna follow through well you know if you guys will put your hands up as things are going by as we go and the speakers are speaking you'll have will have some volunteers go around with black shirts with some green writings they'll say volunteer on them will be how to have a pink bucket and they'll be handing out some paper and some pen so you guys can write them down they'll come around a little bit later and you can feel free throw them in the in the bucket they'll be brought up we'll ask them at that time so now for a quick rundown of tonight's event you speech each speaker will begin with 20 minutes of their opening statement all my responses after that further responses then we'll have a break at 7:35 till about 810 for our Mahalo prayer are our first evening prayer and that'll be a chance for everyone to get some refreshments taking a quick break if we have any questions we can write them down think them through at that time and at that time at about seven thirty seven so two minutes after we break we'll hear the call for prayer the van as it's pronounced in Arabic and we will resume at about 810 so that'll give us about the prayers for the brothers I'll give us about 20 minutes for everyone else it's closer to about half an hour for break refreshments and we'll well ravine and re restart with our Q&A session that'll be about 35 to 45 minutes and then to sum up the event we'll have the closing statements by our speakers for a final five minutes tonight we're honored to have Reverend Steve Martin's he is the staff apologetic and junior apologetic and residents residents at ezra institute of contemporary christian of contemporary Christianity and he is currently pursuing his master's in apologetics at caritas evangelical seminary k-8 a warm welcome please and we have dr. Shapiro le with his PhD in quranic interpretations his master's in comparative religions who has been blessed to travel many countries talking about his passion God Islam comparative religion and he appears as the resident speaker of the residence speaker weekly on a TV program let the Quran speak and any past episodes can be viewed on WWN speaks comm so for both of our speakers can I get a warm welcome please so we will begin tonight's event it has been decided that reverend mark that Reverend Steve Martin's will go first with his opening statements Reverend Steven good evening everyone I think this is working I did want to say a quick greeting and thank you thank the Islamic information on Dawa Center for having us and putting this event together I want to thank dr. severe who I have known for the past uh booth two to three years he has become a friend of mine which I appreciate I've actually followed him through the years I've watched many of his videos and so to be able to be in a dialogue in participation with them is quite a privilege which I acknowledge and I even though we disagree clearly on theological matters given that I am a Christian and that shibir is a Muslim we are still able to call each other friends and for that I'm also very thankful for well that I will start my time right now what does it mean to be human it's a relevant question to ask during the Easter weekend for the church his man the result of blind causality as believed by secular humanists is either creation of a sovereign God is he created in God's image or is he foreign in likeness to his creator well what we believe about man his origin nature and being will determine what we believe about morality meaning and destiny it's apparent to all regardless of what worldview one possesses that men's struggles with his human condition the secular humanists Justin trotty admitted to this in his previous dialog that man does struggle with his human condition Muslims also agree that there is something wrong with humanity given that we continue to read of wars crimes killings and more in fact the human condition is painted throughout human history with blood well how do we then make sense of humanity how do we make sense of our human condition and what solution is there well my understanding understanding is Islam appears to recognize the problem of sin as we find recorded in hadith in which Muhammad praise o Allah wash away my sins with the water of snow and hail and cleanse my heart from all the sins as a white garment is cleanse from the filth and let there be a long distance between me and my sins as you East and West far from each other it's apparent that Muhammad borrowed from Psalm 51 verse 2 verse 7 chapter 103 verse 12 in Isaiah chapter 1 verse 18 for his prayer or other biblical texts however whether or not they were readily available to him in in textual form or passed on orally they were removed from the redemptive context of the biblical text now such balling of Texas generally excused by Islamic scholars comes Aubrey's v & Maher who write that the Abrahamic traditions are acknowledged by all Muslims as sister religions whose geo historical and spiritual continuity with Islam is obvious this is why Islam also believes that man is the creation of God as we find in surah 59 t 6 and we nd created man from dried clay made of molded mud now similar to what we find in the biblical book of Genesis the Quran states that Adam dwell to his wife in the garden and was told that he could eat of anything in the garden except the fruit from a particular tree now according to the Quran surah 2 ayah 36 then Satan made them stumble therefrom and expelled them from that wherein they were well how does Allah respond to their sin their violation of God's command while he showed them mercy as we see in surah 2 ayah 37 but the Quran makes no mention of the penalty of sin nor of a promise saviors we find for example in the book of Genesis for the Quran to make a claim of correspondence and continuity with the earlier scriptures which are the torah the torah the injeel gospel in the zubur zaboor Psalms and which surah 3 ayah 3 states he sent down the book upon the in truth confirming what was before it and he sent down the tour in the gospel there are significant differences between the Bible and the Quran that make them irreconcilable to each other now let us consider three things as we discuss the question what does it mean to be human firstly the qur'an's retelling of man's origin is foreign to that of Genesis and that human beings created in the image of God is not a concept found in the Quran now in dismissing man's likeness to the God of Islam the God of Muhammad essentially becomes unknowable to humanity Islam holds to the doctrine of towie the oneness of God but this God is essentially described as a singularity in which commentator faddle Allah writes the mental faculty cannot reach them in his illusive and hit a mystery a law is essentially unintelligible to the human mind in approachable given that there exists no possible likeness between man and God and hence he remains unknowable in his isolated oneness we should then ask ourselves how the Quran should be understood if it's the revelation of law given that no human language is adequate enough to communicate information from an isolated singularity that is entirely other from the created world in essence if we cannot know God then we cannot know anything about his creation because God is so other that he is unintelligible and therefore the Quran fails to make sense of what man is man for example is a relational being however the same cannot be said for God because he is a singularity within Islamic theology before space and time there was no one whom he could be relational with in order to be a relational being now like all forms of religious humanism it emphasizes an unknowable divinity concept with a God that cannot be known relationally this implies that man is essentially no different than any other life-form in creation as there is no foundation or base which man can distinguish his being and worth from other entities he cannot make sense of who he is because he bears absolutely no resemblance to his creator and therefore he cannot determine based on his creator because he has no relation to the creator he cannot determine his Worth based on his creator well if man then is not created in God's image then what is he secondly the Quran does not define what the sin of man is instead it reads that Adam and Eve were led astray by Satan which is assumed to mean that they were tempted to eat of the forbidden tree but in comparison to the biblical text the Quran fails to make sense of the grave seriousness of sin and its affront to God you see no penalty is paid for the sin of Adam no repercussions follow disobedience of God's command it is forgiven as implied by the ascribed title the merciful to God but it's more tantamount to sweeping it under the rug or almost turning a blind eye to it now yes Adam forfeit to the garden we can grasp from quranic literature but as this obedience was not severe enough to require the forfeiture of life as we read for example in Genesis now yes we see in Sura 7 ayah 25 that men shall live and die but this is not understood as a payment or a repercussions for Adam and Eve sin however in Genesis an animal an animal is slain to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve and they were instructed on offering sacrifices for to cover their sin for their atonement now in essence the holiness of God is revealed in the Hebrew Bible is not the same holiness of Allah and the Quran in fact we find that the righteousness of God is not taken as seriously in the Quran as it is in the Bible thirdly the Quran teaches that man does not inherit a sin nature as Sura 30 I of 30 implies instead man is created upright and is born righteous however the human condition that we all struggle with is explained as man's imperfection in which surah 4 ayah 28 states for man was created weak well why would Allah create man weak from the outset of his creation man was made vulnerable to corruption he is subject to temptation to being enticed to being misled to being forgetful of the goodness of God whereas the biblical narrative explains these human traits as the consequence of men's sin the Quran implies that man was always created this way this is why we read in surah 49:34 that truly mankind is wrongdoing ungrateful which also explains why Muslims have a hard time believing in the incarnation of Jesus Christ as we find in the Gospels well in this human condition what Islam offers mankind is the religion of Islam to rectify his ways that submit to Allah and if we understand the pillars of Islam appropriately those being the Shahada or the Creed the prayer almsgiving fasting the pilgrimage man can attain salvation and righteousness by his own works essentially Islam is just another form of religious humanism in which similar to all other world religions man is the center of its worldview he can author his own salvation he can build his own Islamic utopia on earth he can deliver himself from his own evils by means of what Allah has provided now if the Quran is supposedly the revelation of God you would expect to find a redemptive you see with the Torah and the Gospels the earlier scriptures but instead you find a very different salvation path consisting of works and good deeds therefore receiving salvation as a reward or righteousness as a reward as opposed to a gift of God's grace but as I had implied salvation from what the fall of mankind is know are clear in the Quran in fact it fails to make sense of man's sin and it fails to correspond with mankind's sin nature because it essentially fails to make sense of what man is well how then does Christianity differ contrary to Quranic literature the bible does make clear that man was created in the image of God and this man can be considered the crown of all creation and that human beings are connected with God in a profoundly significant way Genesis chapter 1 verse 27 states that God created man in his own image in the image of God he created him male and female he created them this is why murder for example is wrong because it is not only a violation of God's moral law thou shalt not kill but it is also an assault upon the image of God you see the worth of man them the value of human dignity is determined by the one whose image we their God is intelligible to us because we are created in His image we are relational beings because we are created by a relational being we are rational beings because we were created by a rational being who is one and three persons we are then able to have a relationship with God because he is intelligible to the human mind and in bearing his likeness we can be relational with God now as opposed to being created as weak human beings within perhaps an inclination to sin both Adam and Eve were created good because all that they knew was the goodness and righteousness of God this sin however that was committed by both Adam and Eve is found recorded in Genesis in which their temptation was to be like God becoming morally independent from God epistemologically independent from their creator and deciding for themselves what is just and unjust good and evil they sought to beat their own gods and it was in disobeying God's command that they gained the knowledge of good and evil by the experience of their own rebellion and disobedience now because AB was the chief had overall humanity their disobedience meant the rest of humanity would be cursed with a sin nature total depravity and what is a sin nature it's a lack of conformity active or passive to the moral law of God consisting of an inner disposition to violate God's morally perfect standards we find support for this in Exodus chapter 20 verse 5 Oh trees for I the Lord your God am a jealous God referring to the worship of idols visiting the iniquity or sins of the fathers and the children on the third and fourth generations of those who hate me Psalm 51 verse five not only affirms this but contradicts the currents teaching that man is born upright which reads surely I was sinful at birth sinful from the time I mother conceived me the theologian Charles Spurgeon comments on this passage stating that infants are no innocence being born with original sin all are sinners infected with the guilt and filth of sim the rots overrun it the whole flock well what do we read as to the penalty of sin in the Bible Romans chapter 6 verse 23 reads for the wages of sin is death and Genesis chapter 1 verse 17 records that God telling Adam that is disobedience with result in death but when Adam and Eve sinned God performed the first sacrifice to cover their nakedness and sacrifice for their sin for the atonement of their sin and it is here that death entered the garden and the world but also where we see the grace of God we see this practice of sacrifice carried on through Cain and Abel with Abel sacrifice being accepted by God because it was a blood sacrifice not a vegetable sacrifice that came was offering Noah also offered sacrifices for the sins of his family which is evident given that he took on more ceremonially clean animals on the ark to last him a little bit over a year until the waters recited Abraham sacrificed a ramen to foreshadow that God will provide the means for mankind's forgiveness B Passover in Egypt with the doorpost being marked with lambs blood was another sacrifice that foreshadowed the forgiveness of sin once and for all to come throughout the biblical text we thank we find that with every covenant God establishes with men sacrifice is required because of the holiness righteousness and authority of God consider that when the law of God was given in the Pentateuch it was given along with the tabernacle specifications now why is that because where the law was provided there had to be sacrifice for the atonement of sin the violation of the law because man in his sin nature cannot keep the law it ought all not only showed them the holy righteousness of God the character of God but it restrained man from continuing further in his sin now again contrary to Quranic literature the historical fall of mankind in Genesis records the first messianic prophecy in Genesis 3 verse 15 of one whom would directly address the problem of sin which reads and I will put enmity between you and the woman referring to even between your seed and her seed and he referring to Christ shall bruise you on the head referring to the tribes through the crucifixion and resurrection and you referring to the to Satan shall bruise him on the heel referring to the suffering on the cross now this is demonstrably fulfilled in Matthew chapter 1 verse 20 in Galatians chapter 4 verse 4 the Messiah Jesus being born of the woman seed his virgin birth is prophesied in Isaiah chapter 7 verse 14 a fulfilled in Matthew chapter 1 verses 22 to 23 and Luke chapter 1 verse 26 to 31 which by claiming continuity that Quran agrees with as well despite borrowing from the apocryphal infancy Gospels of Thomas and James but the essential piece of this first messianic prophecy is concerning the payment of our sin debt through a sacrificial death on the cross since the violation of the law requires death as its penalty it was the death of the Christ the Son of God who fulfilled the law who satisfied God's perfect justice this is the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system which prophetically symbolized and Porsche added the crucifixion of our Lord and Savior we read of the atonement sacrifice in Exodus chapter 29 verse 38 to 39 and 42 which states that this is what you shall offer on the altar to lambs a year-old day by day regularly one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at Twilight and it should be a regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of a tent of meeting or the Lord Leviticus chapter 1 verse 10 reads if the offering is a burnt offering from the flock from either the sheep or the goats you are to offer a male without defect well in relation to its fulfillment the Apostle Peter writes in 1st Peter chapter 1 verses 18 to 19 that knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold but with precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless the blood of Christ the Apostle John writes in the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 29 that the next day Heath John the Baptist saw Jesus coming to him and said behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world Christ is therefore in Scripture presented as our Passover lamb he is the second Adam the high priest who enters the temple with his own blood and whose death on the cross resulted in the tearing of the temple veil antutu allowing them to abide in God to Christ see Christianity is not humanistic in that man can attain his own salvation he is not the author of his own saving grace instead it is Christ centered and that God pours out his grace upon those who repent and believe in him it is a gift that cannot be earned by works or good deeds you see repentance and faith in Christ is not a work but rather a gift of God in which the Holy Spirit enables us to turn to God because otherwise have left to our own devices and our own depravity we will all our own depravity will always prevent us from turning to God God therefore took it upon himself to liberate us from the power of sin from our human condition by sending his son into the created world that as a second Adam he could undo the damage of the first we read this for example in 1st Corinthians chapter 15 verse 22 for as in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive and verse 45 thus it is written the first man Adam became a living being the last Adam referring to Christ became a life-giving spirit while the redemptive narrative of the Bible says more of man's Worth and value than the Quran does in that God took upon himself this suffering for our sins see the Christian faith is Christ centered not man centered because man is not his own Lord or his own Authority the Christian submits not just to the saving grace of Christ but the of Christ who is called the king of kings and the Lord of lords we not only find the salvation of man in Christ which is the salvation from our sinful nature from God's judgment and from eternal damnation but we also find the restoration of man's purpose on earth which is to be God's vice-regent or his representatives exercising dominion over the earth while cultivating creation to reflect the glory of God as we extend the kingdom of God see crisis not only god of very God he is the new Dominion man he is the king and Savior as we find in Psalm 72 and he is bringing all things subject to his lordship man is not just delivered from his human condition to enjoy a paradise void of work in Christ he is a co inheritor he will reign with Christ while subject to his righteous rule building the kingdom of God as a renewed Eden on earth what a great destiny that awaits he or she who turns to Christ now to wrap up my opening statement where Islam fails to make sense of what man is what sin is and what the fall of man is the Christian faith makes sense of man creating the image of God defines sin as the violation of God's law and man's pursuit to be a lawn to himself which is to be in lawlessness before God and provides the only means of salvation through Jesus Christ who satisfies the Justice of God salvation is available to no one else except through Christ as theologian James White's wrote God's forgiveness is found in its fulfillment of his desire to express his love mercy and grace while simultaneously providing an awesome display of his essential justice righteousness and holiness thank you very much thank you very much Reverend Steven dr. sherry eyerly hello everyone I begin by praising our Creator and fashioner I ask him to send peace and blessings upon all of his prophets and messengers especially the last of all of them after who's named Muslims generally say peace and blessings of God be upon him or to say that in Arabic sallallahu alayhi wasallam I am likewise delighted to be in this dialogue here tonight with my good friend Stephen and I appreciate the respectful manner in which he has addressed us and shared with us his interpretation of the condition of man and the problem we are in and the solution offered by the two faiths let me begin my own presentation of what I understand to be the human condition to me as we learn from the glorious quran human beings have been created honorable the quran says that god has created human beings honorable so we do not understand in it in the islamic faith that human beings are somehow totally depraved but rather that human beings are given the potential for both good and evil the Quran says Alumnus Allah who I now have only given him two eyes will listen and wash f18 and a tongue and two lips waha Dinah Hoonah dine and have we not guided him to the two paths so human beings have before them a two paths open and human beings can pursue either of these two paths God has given them that potential and privilege the freedom of choice and free will at the same time he has say given us that inspiration that will lead us towards good if we were to follow that inspiration now when human beings turned away from divine inspiration from divine knowledge from divine revelation and instruction and guidance something is wrong with that particular human being but not with humanity as a whole so God is then able to complain in the Quran malecon what's wrong with you asking beings what has turned you away Mallory Kabira Baikal Kareem what has turned you away from your glorious Lord from from your generous Lord so God has created us honorable as a human race on the whole there is even a hadith that says that God has created Adam in his own image so the idea of that according to Muslim scholars is not that human beings are somehow shaped like God who we cannot imagine to have any form that can come to the human mind but rather that human beings are inspired by God with certain good qualities such as for example mercy kindness love generosity and so on the positive attributes of God except those attributes which are so unique to him that cannot be applied to human beings such as for example his ability to create from out of nothing so human beings then are not totally depraved in the Islamic tradition so how do we understand the story of the fall of Adam Stephen actually referred to that and his interpretation is based on what some Muslim scholars have said let me put it to you in my own words and my understanding of the Quran in the second chapter of the Quran we are told that when God was ready to create Adam the Angels asked how are you going to create someone who will cause corruption and shed blood on earth and God said to angels in the are laboum allah tala moon i know that which you do not know so from that perspective if god is in full control and he knows what is going to happen and he knows that he is creating human beings with the potential to commit evil and if human beings commit evil then god has a way of controlling that evil of containing it of forgiving it of repairing the world and allowing human beings to continue with their free volition knowing that they will continue to sin but he will continue to forgive them so that brings us then to the twentieth chapter of the quran where the story of adam again is told and here we find that God says we have not found in in Adam a constancy we did not find him to be retentive but rather he forgot and so he slipped that Steven was right in Surat al-baqarah the second chapter of the Quran it is mentioned that both Adam and Eve slipped for as allahumma Shaitaan Juanjo and the the satan caused the two of them to slip from that state of grace in which they were but does that mean at the end of the matter no according to the Quran as Steven rightly pointed out God forgave Adam fetch debajo Abu Qatada alayhi wa ha da god chose Adam forgave him and guided him so the story in the Quran is not one so much of original sin but it is one of original forgiveness for Muslims this makes sense in that God created human beings yes with weakness God knows that he created us and were not perfect beings but we are prone to error and he allows us to use our free will to choose error if that's what we choose and to fulfill what we we intend but at the same time he is ever ready and willing to forgive us and this is what he does in the Quranic story now notice that even if you were to follow the Christian interpretation of things and say that Jesus came and died for our sins as a result of which God forgives us what we still continue to commit sins and even some good Christians continue to commit sins and this is a problem and that the letters of John struggle with if somebody says that he has no sin in him and then he is a liar and God's seed is not in him but of course we know from our contemporary affairs that sometimes people who are well placed in in situations of of hierarchy within ecclesiastical organisations nevertheless have moments in which they fall from grace so the idea that human beings will sin and God will forgive the as often as human beings turned back to God and this not only makes sense theoretically but also practically on the ground now God's plan for human beings is to keep sending prophets and messengers and we can see both in the Bible and in the Quran that God sends a series of messengers to call people back to God when people deviate from the right path they forget the message of God prophets have come one after another many prophets are recounted in the Bible and also in the Quranic narrative their story is that people turn away God sends a prophet he calls the people back people turn back to God some disobey entirely and God sometimes in history has caused catastrophes that wiped out whole sets of people who disobeyed God but there is always a remnant who survives with the prophets and who continue with the message of the prophets to our day the last of all of these prophets from the Muslim point of view is the Prophet Muhammad on whom be peace coming to us with the guidance of the Quran as the final message to all of humankind and thus abrogating the previous messages which were given to the previous prophets and also at the same time confirming the truth of that message which was revealed to the previous prophets now stephen spoke about the need for a continual sacrifice in order to please God this is not the Islamic idea entirely in a previous dialogue you will recall that I said that there is also the idea of sacrifice in the Islamic tradition we sacrifice when a child is born we sacrifice on the day of the great lead commemorating the sacrifice of Abraham but the idea of daily having these animals to be sacrificed in order to be able to approach God and this is obviously not there in the Quran the Quran takes a different attitude towards the sacrifice whereas in the Old Testament we read that when the sacrifice is burnt on the altar and they smell of it goes up into the nostrils of God on the other hand the Quran seems to be responding to what is there in the Bible stephen spoke about the prophet mohammed be upon him borrowing from the previous scriptures from an Islamic point of view I don't think it's accurate to describe this as borrowing it's it's making use of that which is true in the previous scriptures but also more importantly from the Quranic point of view correcting that which was misinterpreted or misread or form is written in the previous narratives so from the Quranic perspective that we cannot say that the smell of the burnt animals go up into the nostrils of God the Quran into 22nd chapter tells us Layana la la ilaha mohammed Adi ma o ha well a Kinyon aloha kokua min come it is not the flesh or the blood of the sacrificial victim and that reaches god what reaches god is your piety so your devotion at that time represented by your symbolic slaughtering of the animal that is what God is looking for your intention to please God by giving up something of the wealth and value that is there in your possession when you sacrifice an animal but more importantly the Bible speaks speaks about having a contrite heart and a broken spirit and the the idea of circumcision is there in the Jewish covenant but the Bible says that what is needed is for you to circumcise your heart so by sacrificing the animal Muslims have the idea that we're not just simply cutting the neck of the animal but we're cutting away our sinful inclinations and our disobedience of God and we're turning a new page in life in fact for Muslims this is without using the same terminology this is really the circumcision of the heart turning to God in repentance and in obedience in a previous dialogue I brought up the question of whether those sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were actually really given by God and I said that the Prophet Jeremiah renounced some of these in Jeremiah chapter 8 verse number 8 and my colleague in dialogue at the time said while there are other relations of that verse which indicate that it is not the scripture itself that says that but it is the pens of the interpreters that turned it into a lie but in my further study of this I see first he is right there are some translations that read that way but second I think I was also right in that this is what the commentators say that the scripture does indicate that Jeremiah repudiated some of these sacrifices from the Old Testament he's saying very plainly that these are not from God in Jeremiah chapter 7 George Adam Smith was a lecturer a university lecturer in the United Kingdom his lectures and Jeremiah had been compiled in a book and he said that is very plain from these statements that Jeremiah is not accepting that these sacrifices were really given by God now there's an important point because our Christian friends believe that Jesus marks the culmination of all of those sacrifices and and if those sacrifices were not all given by God that calls into question the the status of Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice some of the sacrifices that Stephen alluded to in fact are not sacrifices necessarily for the forgiveness of sins think of for example the Passover ritual the book of Exodus shows that when the Israelites were finally to be rescued from under the domination of the Pharaoh God instructed them that he is going to come through the land and slay the firstborn of every house but to protect the houses of the Israelites what was to be done is that the Israelites should offer a sacrifice and then paint the blood on the doorposts so that when God comes through the land here we have an anthropomorphic idea of God when God comes through the land he will see that the doorpost so marked with the blood and he will pass over those houses hence the idea of passive so God will pass over those houses and not slay the firstborn child in those houses so the Israelites did as commanded God passed through the land killed the firstborn in every Egyptian house but not the enforced born in the houses of the Israelite people who so performed the sacrifices beautifully so now when in the New Testament Paul says that Jesus became our Passover the idea does not actually connect with sins well enough because if Jesus was the final sacrifice to pay for the sins of all humankind he wouldn't have been a Passover sacrifice the Passover sacrifice only spared the firstborn son of every house they did not spare all of humanity from the anger or wrath of God so I I'm glad that we're engaged in this dialogue because we obviously have a lot to talk about now in the Quranic picture how does God deal with the fact of Adam's sins and our sins the Islamic idea is that God forgives us when we turn back to him the story of Adam was one of original forgiveness our story continues that story of forgiveness when we sin and we turn back to God God is ready and willing to forgive us because our sin does not harm God God certainly is just but because he knows that he has committed created us weak he is ready to forgive us when we turn back to him and he loses nothing we lose nothing nobody loses anything if we harm somebody else then we have to repair that harm to the somebody else ourselves and God forgiving us does not entail that the harm is repaired to the other person if we have done our best to repay the harm that we have done to other people then God can forgive us and also compensate the other persons for the harm that is done to them such harm that has not been previously compensated for and much compensation will occur in the life Hereafter this helps us to make sense of for example a murder for which the murderer has not caught in this life and has not been penalized if we think of Hitler for example slaughtering the Jews what will repay this harm in the life hereafter it is not the idea that Jesus died for the sins of the world because those Jewish persons still suffered they still die some injustice have still been done so how can the injustice be paid for or how can things be reconciled in the life hereafter we are told that God will reward those people who bear sufferings with patience so if somebody is patient in the light of suffering then God gives that person a reward for the suffering to the extent that is mentioned that even if a thorn were to prick the tool of a believer and that person is patient over that harm then God will give that person a reward for it in the life Hereafter so in the end everything is just everything is fair and God continues to be merciful sometimes the idea is that it is through the fall of Adam that death entered the world so because Adam sinned that's why human beings have to die but now we know that there were animals and earth long before human beings and dinosaurs were living and dying and eating each other millions of years before human beings came into the world so there was in fact death before the fall and this became actually the title of a book on the on the subject the title of the book is death before the fall stephen cited passages from the old testament which he thinks point towards this idea of original sin assam 51 verse 5 for example but herbert hague in his book is their original sin in scripture has shown that in fact this is a misreading of that psalm now in the entire Old Testament there was no idea that there is an original sin for which somebody has to pay otherwise we would have had that to be the situation when Jesus entered the world people would have been thinking oh finally we got the sacrifice who will pay for our sins now of course our Christian friends think that this actually happened such that when John the Baptist announced the presence of Jesus he said behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world but notice that this idea is only in the fourth Gospel as the last of the four to be written it was not the original idea but it's a later idea that people arrived at regarding Jesus and that came to be written into the story as though John the Baptist yahia pronounced it right from the very beginning of Jesus's ministry rather the idea that was taught by Jesus it probably is what is found in the Gospel according to Luke and the Gospel according to Luke we do not have this idea of redemptive suffering through the atonement of Jesus but rather we have Jesus dying a martyr's death he dies as an innocent person both in Luke and in Acts of the Apostles and the idea is that people must be seeking forgiveness for their sins and that in Luke chapter 15 Jesus is shown to have told many stories including the story of the prodigal son to illustrate this point the story of the prodigal son goes like this there was a man who had two sons and one of them is said to his father give me my share of the inheritance so I can go my way and the father gave him he went his way he spent his inheritance in sin until he was penniless he took up a job minding pigs which for Jews as the story is in that context would have been one of the most despicable things he could do for life and eventually he thought to himself my father has servants who are in a better condition than I am why don't I go back to my father and my father will receive me so he went back to his father hoping that his father will take him back as a servant at least but his father welcomed him with open arms and said quick slaughter the fatted calf lat the fatted calf so he can have a banquet and his son who was with him said father I was serving you all this time but you never threw a banquet for me and the father said son you don't understand this other son was lost and today he is found let's celebrate here's the ring put it on his finger here is a robe put it on his body let's welcome him so this story shows that when people turn back to God repentance seeking his forgiveness God is willing to forgive us he forgives us he loses nothing and everything is just unfair and square and merciful in the end thank you very much thank you very much dr. Ali so that will bring us to our first round of responses which will each speaker will have ten minutes to respond to the previous speakers opening statements and so please dr. Stephen for you our first round of responses which will each speaker will have ten minutes to respond to the previous speakers opening statements and so please doctor forgive me references well thank you severe for your opening statement I mean there are a lot of things that to discuss so I hope I can cover them all in my first rebuttal within these ten minutes and I'll just start by responding to a couple of things that I mentioned in your opening statement you said that Adam seems to be creating the image of God according to the hadith in that you know these qualities of mercy kindness and love but these are from my understanding these are all relational qualities which in other words to be a loving person that you that means to be a relational person you need to be able to have someone to love or someone to be relational with and prior to operation there is absolutely nobody if we're talking about God in Islamic theology the oneness of God a singularity so there's a there's a contradiction there again in regarding the relational qualities of man as it relates to God there's also another question that was raised as you know if we you know how to come Christians still continue to commit sin I mean hasn't their human condition been resolved well there is still a vast difference between the Christian and the non-believer and by this I meant if you look at Galatians chapter 5 Paul goes on to list the works of the flesh which in other words are oddity manifestations of our depraved sin nature but then he also after that billions dimension the fruits of the Spirit which is to say that a Christian does not live according to the works of the flesh in fact he's liberated from the power of sin so that he by the Holy Spirit he may be able to live in a way that pleases God and one of the ways that that is reflected is by the manifestation of the fruits of the spirit such as you know love mercy kindness and and so forth and so we see that in Galatians chapter 5 where there's also an understanding that we are also still being sanctified the Apostle Paul admitted this is writing you know the things he didn't want to do he still did as referring to that he still struggled with his sin nature as his human condition he's apt to say that he's still enslaved to it no it's the fact that God is still refining him sanctifying him it's a process it's not you know us you know you come to Christ you become a Christian you're redeemed you're forgiven you're renewed you're born again as the scripture says suddenly okay that means that you no longer have a human condition well no God still has to work with you it's a sanctification process and yes we will get to that point where we can reflect the true image of Christ I mean there's a lot of other things as well there was also the mention of sacrifice the practice of sacrifice and heed well I believe that sacrifice for meat is a vestige or a cultural memory from the practice of the sacrifice from Genesis prior to the Tower of Babel and as we talk about sacrificed and Psalm chapter 51 verse 17 about a contrite heart if we understand that passage within its context we understand its Amin in reference to the sacrifices in that God does not find the light in people who continue in their sin and doesn't turn away from their sin and yet they offer sacrifice so as to say I can continue doing as I want living rebellious life as long as I offer a sacrifice I know I'm good with God and God is saying no I do not delight in that in other words if your heart's not in it if there is not a repentant broken repentant heart before God a contrite heart it is not pleasing to him nowhere does it say however that these sacrifices are not required are not a part of the Old Testament law another understanding is the Passover lamb while a lamb was still had to be slain to preserve the lives of the Hebrews for the blood to be put on the doorpost so that means a lamb had to be sacrificed just there so in many respects that is still considered a manner of sacrifice there's also a mention as to well it seems to death before the fall which kind of caught me by surprise I have to admit but is is this how God operates I assume then that this would entail an acceptance of some form of evolution and if so how can a loving singularity if there is such a thing call a creation of death with death good in many respects does that mean that you knows man creates it then as a historical Adam and Eve or is he the result of evolution so you know I've perhaps as a fellow Christian not very clear on in the Islamic position that would be something I'd be interested to know a little bit more about as to where that position is there is also the mention of the parable of the prodigal son well we Christians we don't build doctrine on a parable why because a parable is meant to communicate one central concept one central message and if you look at the passage in Luke in that particular chapter there are two other messages as well it's not just about the lost son you find the lost sheep and you find the lost coin these parables and the whole central message is the joy that there is not only amongst God's chosen people not only amongst the angels in heaven but it is a joy when something lost is found that is the central message so you can read into a lot of these details of the parables but we don't build doctrine on parables because it's not for that purpose it's meant to convey a central point well it's a better illustrate the biblical teaching of our inheritance in nature we can turn to Romans chapter 3 verse 23 which states for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God well what does this mean it means that we are all violators of God's moral law the Apostle Paul writes in Romans chapter 5 verse 12 that therefore just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men because all sinned what does it imply that all men exhibit a sin nature in other words we're all born with an inclination to deviate from God's absolute moral law we are prone to wander and prone to manifest our sinful depravity we find that this accurately corresponds to the real world this actually corresponds to man's nature and therefore this is shown to be true we find that despite the Crown's suggestion that we are born upright we can find in the hadith sahih al-bukhari sorry if i mispronounce it in book six volume 60 number two sixty-two that it states the Prophet said Moses argued with Adam and said to him Adam you are the one who got the people out of paradise by your sin and thus made them miserable elsewhere we read Adam and Moses argue with each other and Moses said to Adam Oh Adam you are our Father who disappointed us and turned us out of paradise we also read an out tirmidhi 1:18 that when Allah created Adam he touched his back and there fell from his back every soul that he would create from his offspring and Adam for God and ate the fruit of the tree and so his offspring also forgot and he Adam committed an error and so did his offspring commit an error well according to Islamic tradition there appears to have been a contradiction between the Quranic text and the hadith as relates to an inherited sin nature but the argument is often made why would adjust that just God blame you for a sin you never committed and yet according to Islamic belief Adam forfeited the Garden of Eden because of his sin well if we reject original sin why then do we why do we then suffer the same consequences Adam why can't we return to the Garden of Eden after all we are is descendants why suffer the consequence of his sin it appears hypocritical to question this when it is assumed within the Islamic world view where we find God in the Bible as the standard and source of justice and righteousness and the Quran winstead find a God that manipulates the scales of justice making no provision for sin according to the Quran Allah just forgives people arbitrarily and if a Muslim performs good works if those good works outweigh the bad works then he or she will qualify for paradise but in the event that your bad works outweigh your good works a lot will increase the weights of your good deeds by to fold or tenfold this really is no different from other religions where works are fundamentally perceived as the method of attaining salvation and righteousness because here the story of a man is required in the hadith who killed 99 people this man was guilty of 99 murders and in his search for redemption he came across a monk who told him Redemption was impossible well he killed him and he continued on his journey where he met his scholar well before the scholar informs him that there are wise men at a village that can instruct him how he can repent and be redeemed but before even reaching this destination he dies which prompts the angel of God and the angel punishment to argue as to whether he should be in paradise or in hell the angel claimed he had no good works he had killed 100 people but the angel of God said he was on his way to repentance well what therefore did Allah decreed he decreed that the distance be measured between the man in the village and from where he was coming from if he was closer to the village where he intend to repent he would be saved but if you were farther from the village than he would suffer in hell will Allah intervene by causing the earth to shrink between and between the man and the village so that he was found to be closer to the village thus leading the angel of God to let them to paradise you see there is no concept of God's justice or central concept of God's holiness in the Quran Islam presents forgiveness as an impersonal act of arbitrary divine power as James white writes and thus if there is no absolute justice and there's no absolute moral law then our moral inclination within us is nothing more than a cruel illusion now this poses a problem to the Quran suppose continuity is held my early Islamic scholarship as demonstrated in Gordon Nichols book narratives of tampering in the earliest commentaries on the Quran given that there is a complete lack of redemptive continuity and correspondence to the earlier scriptures what would you expect in the court of law if someone was guilty of murder if the judge was an accurate reflection of Allah he made part in the criminal of his crimes and thus he would no longer be a criminal is that justice is that not the perversion of justice now there is no penalty for the crime and this is what we find in Quranic theology a forgiveness of sin that does not require that the penalty be paid you see it is only in the Bible that we find the mercy and justice of God come together in which the love and justice of God are fulfilled on the cross on Calvary and where it is further manifested in the extension of his kingdom on earth thank you very much conclude our initial response and we'll move on to our further responses where each speaker will have five minutes to respond to what has just been said so we will have my apologies I'm getting ahead of myself here I'm very excited so yes please doctor should be I please forgive me for 10 minutes okay so I've made some notes so that I can capture the most important point that stephen has made obviously you can't deal with everything because time is limited I think one of the most important points he made is about the what he calls the arbitrary nature of God's justice in in the Islamic view and I say the Islamic view because he has relied on both Quran and hadith while he said the Quranic view so we should be clear we're talking about the Islamic view which includes all of these are we talking about just the Quranic view I think it is very important for our Christian friends to think about what is the Quranic presentation on things before we go to the hadith because it is possible that somebody may be thinking well tell me which is the Word of God and the Muslim says well it's the Quran and the hadith is the explanation of the word of God true but a Christian may be thinking I want to know what's the Word of God and what does it actually say so for many Christians the focus should be on the Quran hadith come secondarily as an explanation of the Quran and some hadith are authentic some are not some are correctly attributed to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him some are not so it is I think very important that when Muslims present the message of Islam to the public they should first and foremost focus on the Quran and for the public as well when you want to seek God you want to know it did God reach down and give us a book which is that book if that is the Quran show me what it is and show me what it says in the Quran itself before we turn to any other source of information so in the Quran is is God's justice arbitrary and I say no I say that God created human beings knowing our weaknesses and he's willing to forgive those weaknesses now we can think about a university professor who knows that his students have had a hard semester this subject matter has been particularly difficult for whatever reason maybe there's a new textbook and people are getting accustomed to it then at the end he says to his students you know you have not all done very well though you've put in good effort and for the good effort I am willing to upgrade everyone by 5% so everyone is happy nobody is harmed and he has actually done justice to the situation whereas if he had applied the letter of the syllabus then he would have marked them accordingly and that would have been unjust so God knows in his wisdom how to apply his justice and he does let's think about the Christian situation does that mean that God is is just by killing his son it doesn't - Muslims imply that because from my perspective the Christian situation is as if God has a bunch of criminals before him and he is ready to condemn them he said criminals you've all committed sins you have to die but I am merciful so I have I'm gonna solve this how guards bring my son now the Garden of Gethsemane still got so many story shows that Jesus was pleading for his to be spared from the cross Father let this cup pass from me yet not my will but thine be done but eventually he submitted himself to the will of God as the story goes but that we can imagine the Sun coming in initially pleading and God saying no son you've got to die criminals I love you so the criminals go free the son dies - Muslims this does not really reflect just this now what about the story of the of the man who killed 99 as mentioned in the hadith now we go to that secondarily we have to interpret the hadith in the light of what the Quran has laid down as general principles because it is unimaginable that the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him would have been contradicting the very book that was revealed to him as a revelation from God so his the words that are reported about him in hadith should serve as commentary on the Quran but not to override what is already said in the Quran so the idea of justice and forgiveness is very clear in in the Quran what about the man who killed the 99 now if God did not give any compensation to the murder victims then of course this will be unjust but if God and the life Hereafter it says - a murder victim I know you've gone through a lot you have suffered you have been martyred unjustly and as a reward for that I give you this paradise which is 10 times the size of the world andaman says will how I never imagined anything like that let me go back into the world and die one more time so that I can get this sort of reward now that man is compensated for the harm done to him he's happy in the end and the one who has committed the sin is now forgiven God loses nothing the man who committed the crime loses nothing they the murder victim loses nothing but gains in the end and everybody is happy everything is in the end even-steven as I often say sorry and it's even to use your name like that yeah okay what about Gordon Nikhil and his writings about Islam I've read his gentle answer and his previous book which was the subject of his PhD thesis narratives of tampering and I find that Gordon Nikhil is a Christian missionary writing from a particular point of view trying to defend Christianity and though he's very polite and gentle as his the title of his book indicates and he has misunderstood Islam seeing it from that particular point of view maybe eventually he and I will have a debate because the word is already going around that we should do that and and then we will see how how that goes now the question that Stephen raised before us is what about returning to Eden well if Adam committed the sin and then he was driven out of Eden of the garden of the jannah then a wire why are we still suffering the consequence of that well from the Quranic point of view it seems that this was God's initial plan because even though he forgave Adam he still says to them now you are to go to earth this is this is the place where you are to live for a certain time which would indicate that his placement in the original garden was only for a particular purpose it was not for everlasting life other passages of the Quran show that human beings are actually created to be on the earth and to live on earth for the duration of their lives so this is God's master plan in fact it might surprise some Muslims that the classical commentators discuss whether that original Arden was one in in a heavenly realm or actually a garden on the earth itself and some said that it's actually a garden on the earth itself but that that question does not affect our topic much the question is still why didn't we return back into that original garden and the answer could be especially if it is a garden on this earth that humankind could not all live in that one original garden especially if it was between Medina and narayan as it says in in the Mesopotamian region between the two rivers the the book of Genesis shows that it was between four rivers well you know you can't have all your human beings live in that original garden we have to spread out multiply and populate the earth this is what we have done but we can also turn the question back to our Christian friends and ask why aren't we back in the original garden and why aren't we back forget garden in the original situation in which human beings were before the fall now when Saint Paul and others came up with this idea that with the sacrifice of Jesus everything is going to be made right they thought this is the end of war of the world it's gonna happen any time now Jesus is gonna come back in our lifetimes he's gonna take up the the ones who've been dead previously they're gonna come back to life and those of us who are still alive will be raptured up into heaven this is how st. Paul spoke about it in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 17 he thought that this will happen in his own lifetime that means as they were saying that sin was going on for a long time and now at the end of the ages God's son has come in to set it all right he's come and he spared the final sacrifice everything is gonna be back to normal they thought is gonna be back to normal but of course another two thousand years have passed and was still in the same situation so the question is put back to Stephen why aren't we back in Eden seeing that Jesus has paid the final price more than this if Jesus has paid the price for all of us doesn't that mean that we all go free because we have committed sins God demanded his pint of blood he got it we should all be free right but no we still have to have a contract heart a broken spirit we still have to give up sins me I still have to do the right thing we still have to serve God well that was what we had to do before either before or after the sacrifice of the sacrifice of Jesus has not actually changed anything and I believe that this is an important problem for us to deal with another half minute more to go but I don't want to be contentious and use up all of the time arguing I want to hear from Stephen as well it's all closed at this point and to invite my colleague to enlighten us more thank you our initial round of responses and we'll move on to the the next part which will be the further responses where each speaker will have five minutes to respond and we will start with Reverend Stephen yeah so it's some great questions there I mean I just one of clarifies - why I do refer to that deets including as well as the Quran it's because I have met many Muslims who do regard the hadith as authoritative so I do acknowledge that there is diversity in the Islamic community as to you know some people believe that it's just equally authoritative the Quran others believe it is secondary but nonetheless it does reflect the Islamic communities beliefs in many respects and their understanding in its readings just the terms of the question that he's turned to me at why aren't we back in Eden well my friend it's coming I mean that's that's what we read and as ecclesiology sorry eschatology the study of the end times as we read throughout scripture yes there were many Christians who thought that the end of the world had come by the truth was that you know it didn't and why well no one knows the time and the hour went when Christ will return again but the thing is God is working throughout history God is bringing all things Christ is bring all things subject to him all things are bringing brought subject to Christ so that when he comes in other words the earth will be as a renewed eating me this is the this is the eschatological view of the Church of the end times of Christ's coming that after the judgement we're not just going to be in some place where we're just gonna be relaxing up in Heaven's with the clouds no that's not that's not the biblical view at all we do believe that God's kingdom on earth the renewed Eden throughout all the earth where there is no more death so my friend that is coming that is in fact and I would encourage you to look into a bit more of the eschatological views as expressed by the Christian community the idea regarding the problem with the atonement well the idea that someone else can bear your sins is quite obviously not a concept found nor accepted in Islam and it shouldn't be understood as that just about anyone can bear another sin because according to the biblical narrative it could only be one who was without blemish perfect and upright well according to Saint Athanasius only the assumption of humanity by one who is himself fully divine could affect a change in this crucially state you see by becoming human human and living a human life the Divine Word who is in himself the true image of God restored the image of God that is marred in us but I often find Muslims to be arbitrary in rejecting the biblical doctrine of atonement when Allah permits that someone can go near be on behalf to Mecca as part of the Hajj the pilgrimage at least that's what I've been told in my conversations with fellow Muslims and that's in the case if you are sick or financially incapable of going well why can't allow except that someone goes in your place fulfilling one of the five pillars of Islam but the same principle cannot be applied to the substitute substitutionary atonement that we find in the biblical narrative if there does not appear to be any reason why Allah permits substitution for the fulfillment of the Hajj and not the other for man's atonement of sin I mean this I see as inconsistency the arbitrariness of Islam I mean is God cruel to send his son as a sacrifice for sinners I mean does man have the rights to judge God's character can man's perception of God change the character of God well if we are created by God then we have no right nor are we capable of judging God we are subject to his judgment not the other way around and what we want to believe about God does not really determine what his character is I mean we can think him cruel or barbaric but that does not mean that he is cruel or barbaric when we ought to also consider on what basis man could determine what is right and wrong and what is loving and cruel when he does not have the law and word of God I mean he essentially has no standard or foundation by which to make such value distinctions and I speak of this in man in general I mean if we are going to question the character of God we should also question the God of Islam who is likewise perceived by many to be cruel and barbaric I mean is it not true after all that according to the hadith the converted Muslim who performs good works must still into your hell for the perfusion of his sins and because it's not what many Muslims believe as it pertains to salvation and that the prophets and martyrs are the only ones exempt from that purification process I mean why is it that we believe that in fact that Christians can be born again and you know how is it that we understand that man in fact is different after coming to Christ I mean we look at that's another aspect of the response as well well again it is only possible because Christ in fact comes as the god managers call understood as the hypostatic union in which we find this in the Council of Chalcedon in 451 ad in which the counselor wrote that according to biblical text Jesus was truly man of a reasonable rational soul and body consubstantial Co essential of the same substance with us according to the manhood you see Christ was to be acknowledged and two nature's in confusedly unchangeably the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the Union but rather the property of each nature being preserved in essence Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time in which the hypostatic union could be expressed being perfectly God and perfectly man and it's only the reason that he were able to be saved from our religious our human condition and we can see the fruits of the Spirit is because he is the son of God not he's not just a man he is God that came in human flesh that took on human flesh the second person of the Trinity I wish there was more time but unfortunately this is now the end of the second rebuttal thank you very much to have a break in the MC will inform us about what follows from that so in this final speech I wanted to be reconciliatory and say that I'm so glad that we had this dialogue here tonight I believe that Muslims and Christians have a lot in common we need to celebrate that which is common and at the same time we need to understand the differences but at the end of the night I want Muslims and foreign Christians to walk out of here as as friends and we should continue to study the subjects and understand the issues at the best we can but many of the issues cannot be settled in this life they will be left to God and the life hereafter to inform us as the Quran says about the things that we differed about in this life there is much violence in the world and we need more peace there is discord we need Accord and agreement so let me answer Stephens questions to me what about the Hadees which indicates that some Muslims may actually have to go through hell for their sins well that actually shows that there is a justice if God does not forgive you then you will suffer for it for your sins and you suffer yourself nobody suffers for somebody else lotta 0y0 tumors roll no bearer of burdens is going to bear the burden of somebody else the Quran is fair about this but the idea in the Quran is that God will forgive you and if somebody is not forgiving is because he did not turn back to God and seek forgiveness if he did he would have been forgiven he wouldn't have to pass through hell what about Hajj battle or the compensator he had where somebody performs the Hajj on behalf of somebody else who is infirm and cannot go through the physical processes and the reason for that is that as Muslim scholars explain and Hajj involves a sacrifice of the human endeavor and also a financial sacrifice some people are capable of the financial sacrifice but not of the physical so somebody else can perform the physical sacrifice on their behalf and and this person is just basically responsible for the financial portion which they bear so it is fair and square and in this way notice I didn't say even-steven this time now in Stephens first speech he compared the God of Islam at the god of Christianity and and he said that and the God of Islam is not understandable but in his own words he said that the God that he's speaking about is intelligible to the human mind these are the words I wrote down when he spoke them but as the evening progressed I felt that he was talking about a God who is not actually intelligible to the human mind because he speaks about Jesus being fully God and fully man at the same time this to me is a contradiction in terms because it involves being perfect and imperfect at the same time and this is an internal contradiction moreover he says that the one who dies for us has to be fully divine as if God himself has to come down and die for us but if God come down and dice for us then God died and if we're not gonna admit that God died then we shouldn't say that God died for us now if you say that that is actually three persons and one of the persons died do you have one minute left if if we say that God is three persons and one of the persons died it would mean that one of the persons is expendable and God by definition is not expendable and all three persons should have all of the qualities of God meaning that he is not expendable so there is a problem there the question is who exactly is God and in Islam the idea is very clear there is only one God the same one God who spoke to the great prophets of the past who spoke to Abraham to Moses and to Jesus and it is the God who was worshiped by Abraham and Moses and even by Jesus we have in the New Testament that Jesus fell on his face and prayed to God just as Muslims to this they fall on their faces and pray to God who was Jesus praying to if he himself was God and if it's only what his human person that was praying that means that there is a separation between his human person and they define a person and it would mean then that God did not actually become a human being he must have just simply dwelt inside of a human being so we have a distinctive human being who's called Jesus and we have God who is somehow inside him who may come out and leave Jesus as a human being and I don't think that that is the definition of divinity from the Council of Chalcedon which Stephen was referred to so in the end it seems to me that the God of Islam is a clear concept and the god of Christianity is not so clear and it becomes confusing when we think about who precisely died for our sins and who died on the cross rather than having God died for us let's say that God forgives us and let us all turn back to God repentant thank you very much thank you very much gentlemen so that will bring us to our break we're gonna have a little bit of an intermission we will have about half an hour so 15 minutes of that will be dedicated to our Mahalo prayer or our evening prayer we ask all our guests and our fellow brothers and sisters when we were at that time and we I have heard the call to Adan and we are praying we asked everyone to just keep our voices a little bit a little bit lower and it the remain silent would be optimal and just to give the respect of the people who are praying to let them focus and keep their concentration there will be some snacks at the back guys and you feel free to grab some tea some drinks socialize amongst yourselves if you have any questions the volunteers will be going around at that time as well just give me a tap on the shoulder they'll have some pens and some pads you'll see that I have a black shirt with some green writing it says volunteer in big they'll gladly give you some pen and paper and we'll get those questions to us and we'll filter through them and keep them guys please on today's topic so with that being said to everybody that's here in the audience to the people that are tuning in wherever you guys are online come back in about half an hour at about 8 o'clock and at about 7:30 7:00 we're gonna hear a call to prayer and at that time we'll have about 5-10 minutes of silence please guys and so greatly appreciate it and that'll conclude this portion thank you very much dr. Ali Allah says in surah al Asiri I at number 70 that we have honored the children of Adam and we have carried them in the lands and the Seas and we have given them many things and we have preferred them over many things that we created with preference this implies that we are not perfect over all creations the scholars including even Tamiya thinks this is proof of aliens where does this put our status as humans as this as its verse states that we are not the greatest of creations dr. Ali well a lot about three minutes for each question well I'm glad this question was asked because it ties in with what I presented when I said that to God honored the children of Adam and the verse says the same thing now it's it's an Islamic understanding that human beings are the best of all of God's creation I don't think that's anything in this verse that that negates that belief but there is no specific statement that I know of that says that the human beings must necessarily be the best of all of God's creation he missed them scholars have debated whether in fact most human beings are better than angels or angels are better than human beings so that that's a long debate we don't need to settle the issue here more for our topic are human beings in a good relationship with God such that if we sin God is willing to forgive us that the Islamic answer is yes and does that make God just an fear the Islamic answer is yes because God compensates the victims or he requires us to compensate and if we do not compensate then if he wants to forgive us he still has a way of forgiving human beings God has created human beings and placed them on earth as a testing ground so yes our deeds will be weighed in the life hereafter as Steven had mentioned in the opening presentation and if we have more good deeds than bad then we go to paradise say if less good deeds than bad then of course unless we are forgiven by God then we go to the other place but in the Islamic understanding humans are not makers of their own destiny in that ultimate manner yes we choose our paths but God finally he gives us by His grace the opportunity to enter his paradise it's not so much because we deserve it by our good deeds but God has graced us to perform good deeds and to enter into his mercy and kindness thank you should be right thank you for whoever asked the question I just do want to clarify as to this the the bit of what the Bible says in respect to to man will heat me it's very clear that man is created in the image of God and this what we referred to when I say man is both male and female they're creating the image of God as his vice regions and it was always meant to reflect the perfection of Christ the perfection of God I mean that's very clear as to why man in the scripture is elevated he is the crown of all creation because no other created object in the creative world can say that they are created in the image of God again as just a response quick response to severe and according to his presentation as well again we have you compare the Bible and its text about God and in the Christian theology and you compare that with Quranic theology again you find a very huge disconnect where you find a holiness and righteousness righteousness not as something required not as something that works together but rather you see arbitrariness you don't see justice exemplified in Allah instead what you find again is mercy but just completely disregarding justice which is what you don't find in the scripture in the Christian Bible you do find justice and mercy coming together at the photo cost thank you very much gentlemen our next question is to both of our parties Sophie would both a lot three minutes and we spoke a little bit uh both you guys spoke a little bit earlier about heaven in hell and what the purpose is and there and so this person is just asking what what is the purpose of this as as man as humanity well what is the ultimate why is there these things and and what are their purpose heaven and hell they're asking who would like to go first yeah I'll go ahead and go first what is the purpose of man and I'll relate as well heaven and hell it just an understanding I mean what was man create original II to do he was created as God's vice-regent his representative and what was he given he was given what's called a cultural mandate which we find throughout reformed tradition and commentaries in Scripture what we find is that man was created to cultivate God's creation to reflect the glory of God so an understanding that in other words is that we were always meant to cultivate creation we were always meant to what does that mean it means cultivating culture in a way that reflects the truth of the gospel refers the truth of the Christian scriptures in a way that glorifies God not in cultivating a culture of death as we often see for example in our culture today a culture of nihilism as a result of the naturalism and human secular humanism that has taken the reigns but instead cultivating a Christian culture a culture that reflects the glory of God that honors and pays tribute to the lordship of Christ but I've never now connecting that to heaven and hell you know what what is that well I have to want to make a very clear clarification heaven is not this place full of clouds that you suddenly when you die and you happen to be a believer you go up there and you just you know sit on a nice cloud and you wait there for the rest of eternity in paradise that's not what heaven is heaven is always understood scripturally to me that you will be in the presence of God but that's in terms of well that wherever that might be that that's not going to be the case for eternity esketh when you look at the eschatology of Scripture god we're going to be with Christ would be in the presence of God but on earth upon Christ's return or to see a new earth we're gonna see a new heaven there will be a literal reign of Christ on earth and so that you know we're being repurposed where our purpose is being restored in Christ because our image of God was the face due to sin Christ induced the damage of the first Adam he restores our matrix in other words restores our purpose to cultivate God's creation to glorify God but what about the question of Hell what about those who do not repent and who did not place their faith in Christ well hell quite obviously I mean if God creates a being and which is man and man does not obey God but rather it proceeds in rebellion against God God has every right in fact it is demanded of his perfect just nature that that punishment must ensue as a result of that rebellion as a result of that disobedience and that's why that's hell there I mean hell was not originally designed for man it was originally for fallen angels but as a result as a result of man's sin a man's sin condemns him to eternal damnation and that's why we see the Grace and the mercy of God presented through the gospel through Christ's coming who died on the cross wasn't God that died it was his his physical body is human body that died in Paris but he is the fact that he right he was raised again from the dead on the third day is what gives us hope is the affirmation of the victory over sin over death and what we see is the hope of the gospel and that is the grace of God to liberate us not just from condemnation in eternity but also to restore our purpose as God's vice-regent on earth together with Stephen I would agree that we need her purpose human beings have to have a purpose and if we take religion out of the picture and the atheistic worldview there is no purpose you can make a purpose in life if you want to but you don't have to so they the religions especially the great world religions and especially the Abrahamic faiths give people a sense of direction a sense of hope and a sense of purpose for which to live as human beings and having said that what is the purpose of human life on earth the Quran makes two important statements about this one is the statement that Muslims know generally which says that God created humans and jinn to worship Him and then the question arises from that well you know does God need people to worship Him that's why he created us to worship Him the answer to that seems to be in the other statement that I'm thinking of which is in the 11th chapter of the quran surat hood where it says well eve aleca halacha home and for that he created them now the velika that follows from the mention of mercy which was just in the previous verse so it putting it all together it seems that God created human beings for his mercy and we can think of the mercy of God as an overflowing fountain and so if you think of a fountain of water and the water is always overflowing so the mercy of God is like that always overflowing so who is there to receive that overflowing mercy God created human beings to receive that mercy I think that's the best way of putting it so now what is the way of receiving that mercy through worshipping God it's like when we worship God we are connecting with his mercy it's almost like you want water in your house well how are you gonna get water in your house the water isn't some main supply somewhere so you have to open your tap in your house in order to get the water coming into your house so the the the worship of God is like opening that tap when you worship God you are connecting with his mercy and receiving his mercy so the statements are all put together God created us to worship Him not for his sake but for our sake as our way of connecting with him so that we can receive the mercy that he created us for and that is paradise paradise is the expression of God's mercy so when we are admitted into paradise by the grace of God which often is conferred on an individual as a reward for that individuals good deeds and avoidance of sins then that is a way of finally receiving ultimately the grace and the mercy of God will that paradise in a renewed earth which obviously will have to be much bigger and greater than this one or in another place which God has created specially I don't think that's a very important dispute the the question is will we get the bliss from God and the life hereafter to be enjoyed forever and this is my belief yes we will thank you very much gentlemen our last question for tonight will be regarded to Reverend Steven I like the fact that they really the person who posed this question put the name of or the title of tonight's lecture I really appreciate that so we know it's it's about something related to tonight's topic you mentioned earlier that that Jesus was fully a human and fully a God ie a hypostatic Union quote/unquote and the light of this can you can you can you explain what do you understand by the hierarchy described in Corinthians chapter 11 verse 3 first cream while their guesses finding is his page so he can properly answer the question thanks everybody for keeping the questions on topic and I do apologize sincerely for the questions that we haven't gotten to ask that are related to the topic out of respect for our guests for tonight and if you if you feel and you really want to ask the questions I'm pretty sure both of our guests will be here shortly after and you can ask them in person if they're willing to answer are you ready yes I thank you for your patience quite obviously I need to read the passage for myself as opposed to trying to recall my memory and mistaking it and just for those who are asking I'm not sure what it says it says but I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of a woman and God is the head of Christ I'm obviously the question here is in reference to this heart God is the head of Christ what does it mean does it mean then that Christ is not one with God that's not exactly what it's saying but if you you can't take a passage and then suddenly remove it from the context of the entire biblical text when you understand it in its context in other words reconciling it with the whole of Scripture we understand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and therefore understanding the relationship of the Trinity which is what God one being but in three persons 101 since three persons in another sense and understanding the relationship then of the persons of the Trinity where Christ being the son is therefore subject to the Father he is not inferior to the father he is equal with the father because he is God it's a Holy Trinity but however at his office as the son is therefore subject to God as the father and obviously we do see that we see that relationship in the Holy Trinity and I do have to admit and I do willingly say as many other Christian commentators say that we can't exhaustively know the Trinity because it is in fact a it is in fact one of those mysteries of God and one of the things that we need to keep in mind obviously is that we are finite beings therefore try to contemplate such things such as eternity is something very difficult for a finite mind or a human being living in a finite world and it's in many respects as well understand the Trinity in his exhaustive Nassif that work to be so if we were to know the Trinity and how it works hasta flea well then God would cease being God because God is in fact far greater than our intellect far greater then I'm not saying beyond it but I am saying he is far greater and there are certain mysteries that we do not yet know only what is revealed therefore in Scripture but in terms of this passage in particular there is no contradiction Christ in his office not only referring to his relationship in the Trinity but also when he came as as in the form of man he also submitted he submitted himself to the Father and to the will of the Father so that needs to be understood as well in its relationship to the Gospels thank you for my 1-minute response to that very quickly now what I see happening here is that there has been a development of the idea regarding Jesus over time Jesus to Muslims was a human being and historically this is how it is established but we can see over history that people started to exaggerate his position first of all referring to him as the Son of God meaning it in a metaphorical manner then later on taking that literally and saying that he's literally the Son of God and then thinking that well if he's the son of God then he must be God and this eventually it is announced in the counsels to which Stephen had referred in his earlier speech for example the Council of Chalcedon in the year 451 but what we find in Paul's writing here is part of that development where Paul regards Jesus as a sort of divine being but under the father not co-equal with the father and and definitely not part of a Holy Trinity because the idea of the Trinity was not fully developed yet thank you very much gentlemen I do apologize I felt I had to ask the question because personally I'm not that familiar with Corinthians Corinthians and what was said there so I wanted to vocalize the question out of respect for who who wrote it I mean it had the topic forgive me I feel once we were out read that out loud as he was reading it if I asked forgiveness from from you guys and from the guest for from you Reverend and and from the audience that that was a little bit off topic so I do apologize for that so in light of keeping to our topic we will call that an end for tonight and we will have the question and answers to a portion of tonight and we have our closing remarks we'll have each speaker have five minutes to conclude tonight's event and who would like to go first you like to see on the same our rabbit will go first thank you and the mosque as well for opening its doors and having this dialogue to be honest there are not many mosques that would open its doors to have a dialogue on its premises and I am quite happy to see that there is that openness of discussion and dialogue here I hope you've gone to see and as this has proceeded as well that you've noticed perhaps a clash of worldviews and clearly we are I do not see eye to eye on many things but not a clash of persons in that I do respect and I do love shibir and quite obviously as a Christian minister I do want to see shibir come to Christ and be saved I want him to see the truth of the gospel but nonetheless thank you for opening her doors and thank you for your hospitality as well well despite an apparent contradiction between the Quran and the hadith as we had seen as to whether man does bear the image of God or not consistency to the Quranic teaching insists that man is not created in the image of God and thus in dismissing man's likeness to God he essentially becomes unintelligible to the human mind now man is a relational being he is a being capable of having loving relationships but how can a singularity which by principle must be a non relational being create a relational being or if we cannot know God then we cannot know anything about his creation because God is so other that he is unintelligible and thus the Quran is the word of God fails to make sense of what man is because logically it must also be unintelligible to the human mind well if man is not created in the image of God as communicates it in the biblical text and as I mean as defined by the biblical text then what is he and what man makes him what makes him different from all other objects in the created world the Quran also fails to detail what the exact sin is by Adam in the Garden of Eden and besides the natural consequence of death that follows as a result of sin no immediate forfeiture of life is required for Adams disobedience in essence the righteousness of God is not taken as seriously in the Quran as it is in the Bible the Quran special on man being born upright without sin is in other words contrary to the doctrine of original sin in the Bible as was discussed that all men are born with a sin nature but from the Christian scriptures we can see that God made man upright in His image but the result of his human condition is because of his sin in the Garden of Eden in other words we are not what we ought to be because of our sin and partly because of Adam however the Quran appears to imply as some have interpreted to mean that man was created weak subject to being enticed misled and forgetful his human condition is in other words a part of his created nature well what can solve our human condition oh Islam is just another incarnation of religious humanism for my understanding and by which righteousness and salvation can be attained by good works man in other words can deliver himself even if he so much professes the Shahada but for the Quran to claim continuity and correspondence to the earlier scriptures which is attested by various scholars there is a severe disconnect in that both the biblical text and the Quran disagree theologically and historically especially as a concerns man God and redemption in Christ see the Christian worldview however does adequately define man as being created in the image of God by which man's worth is determined by the one whose image he bears it actually describes the human condition as a result of Arc's in nature and its roots in the Garden of Eden where man's sin was to be his own God to be independent from God from the moment man sinned death as the penalty was required and it was paid by God slaying an animal to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve see the sacrifice of the Old Testament were to cover one sins but it all foreshadowed the atonement once and for all which the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter 10 verse 12 when Christ had offered for all certain when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins he sat down at the right hand of God we could not deliver ourselves or liberate ourselves from our human condition as is the central idea of all utopian and human pursuits only God can save man liberate him from the power of sin and restore him to his purpose as God's vice Regents cohen harris with christ in the kingdom of god the redemptive narrative of the bible says more of man's Worth and value than the Quran does in that God took upon himself the suffering for our sins and essentially where Islam fails to make sense of what man is what sin is and what the fall of man is the Christian faith makes sense of man created in the image of God defines sin as the violation of God's law and man's pursuit to live in lawlessness as a lawn to himself and provides the only means of salvation through Jesus Christ who satisfies the Justice of God god bless you and thank you for having us tonight so finally as we come to the close ladies and gentlemen I want to thank you all for coming out to our Islamic Center for this dialogue here tonight and I want to thank Steven for accepting to be partnered with me in this dialogue as we try to share our ideas or research and our understanding of Scripture and God with each other now as we come to the close I want to draw together the strings of this dialogue and see where we have traveled in this sense I while I I do appreciate Stevens presentation and his skills as an orator I would have preferred that he put aside his written speech and and try to gather that the ideas that were discussed in the manner in which the ideas flowed interacting with the things that I said you will notice that in our discussion tonight the the clarity of the Islamic principles actually became evident first there is only one God and when we say one we really mean one and there is no confusion or a lack of clarity about who we're referring to when Muslims say Allah or when they say God second that God created human beings for his mercy and to worship Him place them on this earth as a testing ground holding for them the promise of eternal life in paradise coming from His grace but given often in response to the human beings good deeds their avoidance of sins and especially their repentance we have discussed that if human beings commit wrong on this earth God has a way of repairing that wrong if we harm others we are required to repay the harm to others and also ask God for his forgiveness and if we do not repair the harm to others God can compensate the victims of our crimes and still forgive us so that everything in the end comes out even and affair yes God is merciful and he is also adjust in this system now if we turn to the Christian ideas which Steven presented we find that some of these ideas are great sounding ideas but when we probed them deeply we they they reveal some incoherence like it's great to say okay somebody died for my sins that sounds nice it's great to say that God loves us so much that he sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life it's a beautiful sounding verse especially to those who have been reading it all their lives but now when you think about the concept that you realize that down at the bottom they do not go here so for example if you say that the only person who could have died for our sins is one who is without blemish and he must be a God himself and then in the end you say well it's not God that actually died it's only the human body that died and this human body is not eternal this human body is the body that was prepared for God to come into in this world well then this is not the eternal God that died for your sins so you start out by saying God died for your sins you end up by saying that God did not die for your sins we have seen that for God to be God he must be as the Quran says hialeah mook he's living he does not die and for any one of the three persons in the Trinity to be God he must have all of the essential attributes of God which means that he must be everliving and he cannot die and yet we are being told that one of the persons of the Trinity died which would mean that he's expendable but God is not expendable now we have seen that while Stephen was very much concerned about the Justice of God and he doesn't want God to be arbitrary at the same time what he presents is a picture in which God to Muslims appear to be unjust in that God penalizes an innocent person in order to let the guilty ones go free and the Muslims are saying well if God wants the guilty persons to go free then let him free the guilty persons and he does not have to kill his son who is an innocent person in fact justice is not done anywhere in the world where in order to let a person go off of death row we grab an innocent person and kill him instead that would be gross injustice if it's done in our world and it is also gross justice if it's done on the cosmic scale if it is done in the divine realm so for Muslims it seems very clear that human beings are created for a good purpose God created us to receive His mercy through worshipping Him and if we fail and falter we have a way of turning back to God asking for his forgiveness and the Quran assures us that he is forgiving he is merciful he's kind and he will forgive us for our sins so I asked you here tonight and I asked myself let us turn back to God let us ask for his forgiveness we say God please forgive us thank you all thank you very much gentlemen so that will conclude tonight's program I will invite everybody to hang around for a little bit for some further discussion amongst yourselves a couple treats some snacks and fall and we'll continue on with what was going on during the intermission with that being said I would like to thank all our guests for their participation in tonight's program I would like to thank the little ones for remaining quiet throughout the whole time that was amazing good job guys I would like to thank Reverend Stephen Martens for being our guest at thinking time out of his busy schedule to come and speak with dr. Shapiro le I would like to thank dr. Shapiro I leave for taking time out of his schedule and for being here tonight and being part of this discussion I would like to thank the event organizers I would like to thank the Islamic info and Dawa Center team I would like to thank the broadcast and media team all our viewers online overseas wherever you guys are thanks for tuning in guys I would like to thank global Muslim forums comm where all our online videos can be seen everything that happens here at the Dawa Center is go to global Muslim forums calm and we'll have all the videos posted there for later viewing the catering team all the viewers everybody thank you very much I would like to the last but not least I would like to thank the guys our team running around our volunteers taking questions helping with the setup helping all our guests feel welcome the volunteers guys thank you for your hard work your dedication without everybody that I just mentioned if I forgot any buddy guys from the bottom my heart please forgive me I like to humbly thank everybody and at this point I would like to invite everybody to our next monthly lecture series that will be on April 30th it'll be another dialog between Alex creme Lee and dr. Shabbir Ali on the topic who is the true God thank you very much everybody have a great night

Channel: Muslim

Views: 11,164

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Keywords: Dr.Shabir Ally debate March 26, 2016

Id: -_Rrp6_p0Ag

Length: 107min 45sec (6465 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 31 2016