Dr. Ben Goertzel and Vitalik Buterin Discussion at the Crypto Chicks Blockchain & AI conference

it's great to be back I think this is perhaps going to be one of the most sought after panels so I hope that those that are in the in the waiting room will come in and join us because one of the things that we want to try to accomplish starting at 11 o'clock is this event this panel will be live streamed and we want to maybe break a record and have it the largest live stream to blockchain panel ever so let's um if you if you have you know following on Twitter or Instagram or whatever please put that out there and have them follow along my name is Adrian Batra I'm the editor in chief of the Toronto Sun and it's a pleasure to be back here with the crypto chicks because I think what they're doing this conversation that they're happening and they're having is pretty extraordinary and all of you are such a significant part of that know that many of you know them follow them maybe have some questions for them so I'm hoping that we can try to engage in a candid honest way about the future of blockchain and artificial intelligence I always joke I'm in the newspaper industry so maybe someone in this room is going to figure out how I can start making money again maybe there's a blockchain for that that that's Vitalik you can come up with for me that would be really helpful so with that very small introduction because I don't think that these guys really need much of an introduction and you know how to access all of their information we will begin is there a hand held for me as well or do you want me to do it from here Sarah hand held okay all right so as we as we wait for that as I said 11 o'clock is now in its the oh thank you we have now hit 11 o'clock if you do want to share on your social platforms that we are continuing with this conversation with metallic and and then please do well good morning to both of you it's great to great to have you here good morning right enjoying yourself so far I can imagine let's get right to it two of the platforms that both of you are so integrally part of founders of in so many ways on blockchain and AI individually have such a significant impact on the future how we think about things how we are changing our own lives but then let me start with you how do you view hey I actually benefiting blockchain and then talk I'm gonna have the same question for you anything blockchain or anything from blockchains benefitting from boss so oh yeah I mean there are both directions yeah I would say I'm really more of an AI guy I've been doing AI since the 1980s and and all the way back to the late 90s I was you know daydreaming and then theorizing about how would you make a decentralized network of AI is just a multi-agent system spanning the globe with the eyes communicating and collaborating with other ai's which didn't need any any central controller and Marvin Minsky one of the pioneers of the AI field had the idea of a society of minds where he envisioned intelligence emerging as a sort of collective dynamic among many different ai's cooperating together in a way with the intelligence in the whole would exceed this some of the intelligences of the parts in the late 90s it was easy to imagine how to do this and we had distributed computing we had cryptography to but but all the pieces weren't really put together and it was a pain to try to implement something like that I mean unless we can create things which have equal or greater utility in a way that respects agency and privacy people don't actually care enough about privacy not to use the the services big companies are offering so the one simple example I got I use Google News all the time at one point I got annoyed and I disabled the personalization there and then I'm like why am I getting all this garbage news I don't know I took care about the world has become very boring all of a sudden right so yeah I once I Erie enabled the personalization you know then I get news about AI about blockchain about you know Buckethead or musicians I like countries I may want to travel to but that the problem is that model of my interests is opaque to me and it's stored within you know the the mind of some massive proprietary brain that Google is building and probably showing with the the NSA to spook to spy on my friends or something right and so that the service should be offered watching the livestream right now I'm sure they're watching many of us in this room all the time it took 13 minutes to get to that point we could say how did the Chinese and Russian Secret Service you know I say this is Lee but that's part of the issue with the the Huawei platform you know this we always kind of joke that okay don't spy on me well who built the Great Firewall with telling the Cisco built it originally right so I mean maybe China is doing surveillance u.s. is doing surveillance have everyone's everyone's doing doing surveillance and there's not much evidence any great power is so much holier than the other ones I mean what you need is he obviously the infrastructure of AI and big data management to be more like more like aetherium BitTorrent or Pirate Bay you know we we need it to be on the peer-to-peer side we need people to have the control and agency over their own data and transparency into how it's being used and of course blockchain itself doesn't achieve that that's a tool that is part of how you achieve that yes so the good news is that there's definitely no a law of information theory that says that in order to get the benefits of evaluating some function on a huge p on a huge piece of data that data needs to all be in one place in a way that's accessible to two big powerful centralized powers that be to evaluate whatever other functions they want on it so there's been a lot of really interesting work in cryptography the last couple of decades on trying to make these more and if these centralized machine learning protocols where you can learn and execute models on pieces of data without that data ever actually leaving the person's computer in an unencrypted form and that's something that there's been a lot of projects around in the last couple of years there's some even a lot of watching tie-ins here because there's at least a couple of projects I know about that are trying to make these kind of blockchain mediated data markets where basically on the app you would hold the data and then you would automatically just participate in these in these markets where you let them run self computation and in exchange you would automatically get some kind of some kind of payments and so that that would just ensure that you can get the benefits of things like personalized news feeds and even get the benefit get the social benefits of your information being part of the thing that that helps train these algorithms for everyone without your individual information actually kind of leaving your own machine and that's so this is something that's becoming more and more possible technologically um any political front I recently um wrote this article it's right at the top of my ax blog vitalik CA I'm called control as a liability and the thesis I made there is that while a 10 years ago.the like having more data of yours users but it is basically a pure benefit because like hey you know why not why not just grab all that I can it's just more things that I might be able to run some math on in the future but now with things regulations coming in data localization laws privacy laws regulatory agency is trying to define the idea basically regulating central controllers and trying to define and what exactly is essentially controller versus what is a software provider it's actually creating a lot of incentives to build applications in ways that do minimize your the application developers ability to kind of see everything that's going on right so whereas if all of the data is actually being uploaded to a server and Silicon Valley then you get like all of the political consequences that come with that but if you're just building a piece of software where all of the data stays on the local machine and you're just building the thing that these local machines used to interact with each other then it's much simpler for you right so it definitely like there definitely is a kind of both technical and economic opportunity to build things to work differently than the way things have worked the last decade but you need the data you need the information you know how that's sort of the oxygen for these sure well you need the data but you do not need the data in a form which is decrypted in a way that you can actually see it and use it for all of for all of these other more nefarious purposes or get hacked so let me pivot that then bend to you within the applying blockchain and and in the AI so what are the biggest challenges that you're facing right now as this sort of as a an emerging area well the challenges of applying blockchain and I I guess I guess there's technical challenges and and then there's sort of market and psychological challenges right so we we launched the beta version of singularity net platform in in February I mean you're using it atheria mass as the blockchain layer and this lets you have different AI agents you know running in the network where things like payment and identity management and reputation rating and so on uses the blockchain but passing large bunches of data around or the AI processing itself is all it's all done off chain and you can you can send sort of persistent channels between different AI agents will send information back and forth efficiently and can last lasts quite a long time so then then I mean that there are still a lot of technical things we would like to do that neither etherium nor other current any other current block team will do now so from what we're doing now etherium is actually great it's it's fine them and we have a set of AI agents that they live for a while that maintain relationships with customers or the other AIS for a while hey eyes can outsource to other a eyes and they can cooperate on things and as long as these relations are somewhat persistent between agents and then you're cool now in the long-term vision that we've had for a long time we want to be more like dynamically assembled micro services where you you would have one AI that say summarizing a document but if it if it encounters some complex medical terminology you know in the in the course of summarizing that document which might take a tenth of a second it could put out a request and find you know ten other agents that know about medicine one of them could create a new agent to answer questions about medicine in the exact context of that document and then it would integrate all that knowledge and into its answer right so if you if you really want micro services where new relations between agents are being established rapidly in the course of answering like a query in in real time I mean our platform won't do that right right now and the only way we could figure out to do that now would be to just do pretty much everything off chain which kind of obvious of using a blockchain and in the first place but that that doesn't mean these are like insuperable obstacles though I mean they're just computer science and software engineering challenges which are being worked on so that's the technical side but the the adoption side is is different and is in some ways even subtler because you getting developers to put their AI code into this decentralized platform is one thing in many cases they'll do it for the cool value of it getting users of AI which in many cases are corporations large and small many of whom are not that technically savvy but they need AI to drive their business getting them to use this sort of weird decentralized blockchain based network it's an interesting marketing challenge in some ways it's it's eased by the popularity of blockchain because the fact that you're using blockchain is perceived as cool and also a big company in say pharmaceuticals or automotive industry they don't necessarily want to rely on Google Facebook or Microsoft for all their needs all their needs either so the fact that it's owned by everyone and no one can be perceived as a plus on the other hand they have to think it's going to be scalable and and reliable and secure and solve all their problems so there's sort of there's that marketing issue which is being confronted by the whole blockchain sector really is getting taken seriously but you address the democratization of it as well and sardis it's quite egalitarian so you were nodding your head and when Ben was speaking about some of the significant challenges so from your perspective though is there other more things that need to be done can be done should be done there's definitely various I mean you guys will be put on a business I suppose if there's not more to be done yeah there's definitely very significant technical challenges still to be solved scalability is probably the biggest one like there is right now there's just not enough space on bought chains to make these privacy preserving cryptographic data markets work for more than a few hundred thousand people if people started really using them and that's something that's actively worked on and there's beast all of these different like layer one Lords you're stealing solutions you'll hear about it these crypto conferences so it's definitely on its way to improving a quite a bit privacy is another one and I expect privacy to be mostly improved by this I mean a fusion of blockchains with other cryptographic technology is that provide all of these really magical properties of being able to encrypt data and make proofs that work only if you have a birthday pieces of data that satisfy particular function so you can use the best building blocks to build things pretty much whatever properties you want there's problems around the user level security is another big one so like this idea of using your own data becomes less credible if just everyone is using them on phones that are incredibly insecure and you get really easily hacked if like someone goes into t-mobile and like switches your phone your phone number which just happens to like five of my friends order we three days so there's definitely challenges in this base but I very recently there's been a lot of like very good work from different parts in the ball chain space to address each one of them so I'm optimistic I'd say homomorphic encryption there's another example which is sort of implied by some of the comments vitalik was making earlier so if you want to do something like ocean protocol was doing which is one of the projects that doing something as he was alluding to lets you keep a bunch of data on your own server AI notes and in docker containers or something can visit that server and and crunch the day that even get get results for you but the data never leave never leaves your server but if you're really paranoid and don't want that container that AI agent to even see all the details of your data in theory like there's math there you can homomorphic aaliyan crimp that data in a way that lets the AIC only certain properties of the data so seeing over then new Mirai is based on that 4/4 time surge prediction for example there's a bunch of blockchain starts working that in the medical space where so we could crunch your medical data to see only the properties of that data that are needed to tell if you are susceptible to some disease or something but without seeing enough of your medical data to uniquely identify you this is really nice that the thing is that actually doing applying like a large neural net model on homomorphic we encrypt it version of your genomic data or something would be way way too slow to do right now I mean there's no fundamental reason why it has to be but there's just a lot of math and computer science work to be done to to sort of cash out this this vision that the aspects of the data that a certain AI needs to see are the only ones that it's going to see but I think I mean all this will come doing that with x-rays China is really taking x-rays of you know their their citizens and releasing that information to find you know anomalies and well that's true with it but I don't believe they're homomorphic lis encrypting the x-rays no of course I mean to be the beauty of being China is just collect everyone's data and most people there aren't too worried about it because the counterculture is a bit different and they can they're using blockchain quite effectively they're largely to to reduce corruption across different levels of government but they when they they don't have a big issue with with keeping their own data private from from the government there which which simplifies things but I think ultimately we can progress better by developing the same technologies in the decentralized way that gives more agency to the individuals and the organizations at different scales but but to do things in a way that decentralized does require more computer science effort that still has to be done well we wanted to leave some time for questions from the floor cuz it's a pretty extraordinary opportunity to have these two individuals here at the same time in the same space so I don't know if you guys have a roaming mic that you want to use or if you want to just stand up and pose your question please it's too quiet for the live stream especially hi thank you my name is Nikki Ram I have a question for vitalic I understand that obviously scalability and energy is a big issue especially so I was thinking my question is what do you think about companies like hollow chain that they propose that they solve those sort of issues I don't know anything about hollow chain unfortunately okay but how would you propose and it does aetherium in the future to solve something like scaling in five words or g efficiency issues like our proof of stake is basically your the main thing we're doing to try to cut that down into the short term so we've we have test Nets of proof of stake chains running for the last few weeks now so so that's actually coming very close to launching and when that happens we will need all of this extremely energy-efficient lot in officience mining anymore and we can really reduce the energy consumption of the network by a really huge amount and then for scalability is sharding ISOs and redesigning the blockchain so that every computer in the network when we needs to verify a small portion of all the transactions is something that's been really actively worked on as well and it's like a bit behind proof of stake but not that far behind you know I have a question for you which is and in working on charting for example a proof of stake how much are you slowed down by the need backwards compatibility with the currently working in theory of network as opposed to if you were just like implementing something new that you just thought of today I mean the approach that we're taking kind of is close to creating something new like it's creating a a new chain with all of the different improved beds kind of coming at the same time in the idea is that the existing chain will kind of be folded into the new system I said you know it's actually not that higher-cost like you would have definitely been five times more difficult if we tried to kind of increment so we redesign the system piece by piece and then we would have had to like to keep some core in the middle that would have just stayed working under the old rules and so forth and it would have led to a much more complex system great thank you it's a less technical question and it's more in your life's did philosophy or math come first which one came first both of you I guess literally speaking probably math came first so I've learned to do math before I knew what what philosophy was I'd learn to read thematic when I was 2 years old or something but then my mother was doing graduate work in Chinese history in philosophy when I was 6 to 8 years old so I read I read a whole bunch of philosophy then but yeah I would say in my own generation AI was not popular right I mean I learned about AI from Star Trek and and space 1999 with these cheesy robots in them but in my generation to get into AI you really had to start thinking things through from scratch like how does the mind work what is intelligence and both math philosophy biology linguistics neuroscience every everything everything plays in and I came to computer science much later when I was like 13 or 14 because before that you couldn't get a computer to play with and but that was 1970s this was like before this dude was born yeah I mean for me when I was much younger I mean math was definitely a big part of my life for as philosophy it was more like reading these fun books about whether or not you should push the fat guy off a cliff so he just so he lands on a railroad and stops to trollee from killing five other people which is like really interesting but it was fairly academic it depends if you can video him falling or not yeah you know which is like interesting kind of academic until much more recently in the blah chain space is really interesting and how it I mean if weaves together all those different but all of those different parts and takes from all of them there's a question do you want to hand them thank you so a question for a have italic so do you think you know that in your long term vision you're going to use artificial intelligence to govern ethereum and probably not so why I mean my view unlike AI in blockchains is that I think AI makes a much more sense at the edge of watching systems rather than at the center of them I mean the problem was putting it at the center right is that we're basically putting these algorithms in the middle of things and giving of pieces of basic infrastructure and giving them huge power over them when we have no like no idea how these algorithms work the designers might have some idea but not a hundred percent of an idea and then it ends up being like either it's completely opaque to all of the users of the system or often if it's not opaque you can do adversarial learning on it and anyone can figure out how to cheat the system so like a eyes and kind of quote algorithms running things basic often has this problem that you have to basically choose between them being opaque versus them being really exploitable if they're at the center we're a house if you instead of talking about algorithms you talked about block chains and mechanisms so tools for different agents to cooperate with each other then at least the hope is that you don't have a lot of those same issues I mean the eyes can participate in the mechanisms I mean I would say before too long it will be de facto a eyes that are governing whatever are the dominant blockchain network's quite quite possibly etherium I mean simply because if if eyes are doing most of the business and AI run dows are the next Google Facebook and Baidu and whatnot it's going to be a eyes that are owning the the tokens and that are doing the voting and who can I mean is it really gonna be feasible to put and are you a human test every time you you you vote III so I I doubt it but with but the AI technology we have right now at this exact moment however yeah it's gotta be humans because they eyes don't have an understanding of context and they're they're just being proxies for some human in a very specific way anyway so I mean my you you have to if you build in predicted advancement in AI my own answer would be quite different but but that that's good we had to disagree on something otherwise it's not we have time for a couple more questions and depending on these fine gentlemen up here how quickly they answer maybe we can get a few more in yes you can say it twice I'm single to ask question and so before I actually ask question AI is probabilistic and you know crypto its deterministic and I think we want to bring kryptonite a I'm not the other way around I'm hoping that you guys agree with that know what is a question - then what is it being done globally to truly bring decentralization into AI today given that a lot of centralized forces they're actually jogging AI a lot more than decentralized so what is it being done to actually counter that force yes so there's a number of things I think we we have the plumbing now for decentralized AI bi projects like singularity net which project ocean protocol and actually dozens of other projects out there mostly building on the etherium network and and so we we have the plumbing now to do decentralized AI and as as you are aware since you are the the co-founder of it we we've created an industry alliance called daya decentralized AI Alliance which is sort of bringing together around 50 and growing different projects using AI and and blockchain together an interoperability being the next challenge there so it's it's a network of AI networks on blockchain so there's of course more work to do but if we take for granted that sort of the the decentralized AI plumbing problem is now solved I mean as of this as of this year with things like single area and ocean actually shipping you know working reasonably scalable betas then then it's adoption right and that comes down to you know usability can we make these as slick to use as tensorflow or all of googles very various tools and then it comes down to marketing among among users and developers now none of which are trivial problems however and a lot of us would rather work on the nitty-gritty algorithmic in and computer science problems and on marketing and community building and these big companies that you mentioned are are very very good at at these aspects of marketing to users and tented developers also so I think we are moving on to a phase now where the question isn't like can decentralized AI work or is it way way ahead of its time or something the question is now can we get people to actually develop for it and use it when there's insane amounts of money being spent making centralized approach is really appealing and really easy whoever's running the shot clock here keeps giving me more time so there's a little basketball reference you know the Toronto Raptors and Sofia's hacked into the lava very helpful because I think that there are more and more questions that seem to be popping up as this conversation continues to go but you have the microphone sir so you get to go first Vitalik you've mentioned in the past that decentralized finance will be one of the early applications of aetherium and one of the easiest ones perhaps to begin with then also throughout the talks today people have mentioned that AI was applied to markets quite early on now knowing this what do you think the first AI applications will be towards decentralized fine arbitrage spots yes yes so the spreads between exchanges are quite quite high that you think will be the first thing to go I mean the the spread between exchanges as much lower than it was years ago because the arbitrage BOTS have gone better already right and they have been quite fast like I remember when a Yunus Wahb launched there started to be a automated arbitrage happening for it like pretty much within days and that was a fundamentally new type of exchange that got pushed out so yeah there's definitely when there's incentives there's definitely smart people that'll swarm around them I think I saw a hand over here sir do you mind coming and let's make this a true democracy and hanging the hand the microphones over [Music] you thank you my questions relate to Tesla Network then do you see there's an ax benefit to have a decentralized AI on the Tesla Network and the question for metallic is that so far test will never have a name I mentioned anything about ball or change if you get a chance to talk to young Maas what kind of ice will give to him is there the subtle addressing of the twitter battle you to had I'm not sure but go ahead Vitalik I don't I don't know right like not everything has blockchain applications that immediately make a lot of sense and if no one came and asked like what's one way that I can no we didn't integrate aetherium to make the test what car is better right now I'm not sure I'd be able to say too much in the longer term when we have like things like things like block chain based markets and bands both for different infrastructure and markets for data and a lot of these applications get integrated into supply chains and so forth there probably will be more things but it's not necessarily the ideal kind of first use case to start to start trying to push out to millions of people with well I could tell you one application that would be very critical as we move towards autonomous driving I mean you have many many different companies doing autonomous driving with with computer vision systems and one issue you have is that given the deep neural net systems used for computer vision now these systems stick overly close to their training data so if something bad happens in the road which is a situation that wasn't represented in the in the training data the car won't recognize it and then you know a little run over that zoo animal or you know it will react it will react in a bad way to the truck that veered across the median of the highway or something so on the other hand what's happening is each company is keeping its own data from its own cars because that day that is valuable to creating their their autonomous system right so what what you should have happened is okay if different companies making Auton of autonomous cars need to keep some of their data private to tune their cars better let them keep it private but they should be sharing data that's critical to human safety among all the different companies making self-driving cars and this sort of thing will you're sharing certain aspects of data and you're keeping private other aspects of they don't I mean in principle this is something that blockchain would homomorphic encryption multi-party computation various cities computer science tricks should be really useful for and again though the core application I see there is for sharing of data and processing among multiple entities that don't necessarily fully trust each other meaning competing self-driving car companies like solely within Tesla's own network it's not obvious there's a huge immediate application but the application I described would be will be highly valuable and probably Elon Musk would get that and would be interested in it but I would say everyone's got everyone who's trying to build amazing new technology has along a long list of problems to solve and then it's a matter of when when does something jump jump to the to the top of the list right but perhaps Elon is watching this live stream right right right now and your question will start a new collaboration among the three of us all right we know we really are coming down to the time crunch I have time for two more questions yes sir this is for both benefit Alec you you brought up several points that on one hand advocate decentralization but also at the same time seems to create some inconsistency one is as you actually provide data on a publicly open decentralized system through and sophisticated outdoor those we can at times predict who these people are so some of the anonymity vanishes with time and secondly the idea that going bend the idea that AI can help sort of move away from the dominance of a few players but the reality is there's only a few players who have the intellectual capital to build these systems and the rest of us who may not maybe not quite be in the same position to be able to control that I want to get your opinions on those too so first of all I would say decentralization is not one system of organization I mean it's the opposite of having an oligopoly or a dictator right so just as in politics you say there's no dictator or no collection of oligarchs ruling everything that doesn't tell you what the alternate system is it just opens things up so I mean decentralization is like that and that's the beauty of the flexibility of smart contract based frameworks I mean you can you can script many many modes of of organization so some decentralized systems of organizing a isin people's would be horrible and and much worse than the current centralized systems and the best of them I think will be much better than the current centralized systems and in terms of the supposed concentration of AI talent and expertise I mean this this is a social organization phenomenon right because the I mean why why are you a IP she's going to work for these big big big companies instead of doing something else I mean the expertise isn't in the CEO or the or the board of the company the expertise is in our programmers who are choosing to to work for them instead of doing doing something else so I think well it's not quite the same thing I often hold out Linux as an interesting example of how something extremely influential in the whole world software technology infrastructure was developed outside the hegemony of large corporations and I'm old enough to remember when people said that would be impossible open-source could never work because people fundamentally you know need to be developing stuff that they own so the thing is open-source isn't good enough when you're dealing with things that need you too amounts of processing power and you'd amounts of data because even if the code is open source whoever has the big hard drive and all the processors still has the autocratic control so you need to go a little bit beyond the open source and you need decentralized control of data storage and and processing and if you throw into that decentralized modes of incentivization which is what comes with token omec infrastructures and I think you have the key that can allow a different sort of socio-economic organization to self-organize along along with these new technologies which can break up this hegemony which seems strange now but again it seems strange at one point that Google and Facebook and so on could become big and like Wang and Honeywell and so forth would become footnotes in history so I think I think it's not an all outlandish to envision that in five or ten years thousand decentralized networks you know leveraging contributions of developers all over the world and AI is running all over the world can can be much much bigger than these centralized corporations no that was been keeping it brief by the way so good job Vitalik you're gonna get the last word here yeah I mean I think it's regarding the other point it's definitely easy to underestimate the bet the power of math and cryptography it definitely is possible to create allows you to have something like a something like a personalized newsfeed where your own data stays entirely 100% on your own computer and there's calcula computations being done on the local computer it's also possible to have systems where data from your own activity contributes to the result of some model where it actually is the case that there's only a few bits of data leaving your computer and those bits or it's in such a way that it doesn't significantly Deanna Myers here so there's definitely a lot of things that can be done and even if it's not perfect it's still a very you can very easily be a large improvement on the status quo ladies and gentlemen I know that some of you had questions for them they will be hanging around and you have a more of an opportunity to engage with them one on one but I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you both Ben and photographer your candor honesty it's pretty extraordinary group of people to talk in front of and so they everybody benefit from hearing from you thank you

Channel: SingularityNET

Views: 11,210

Rating: 4.9573336 out of 5

Keywords: SingularityNET Artificial Intelligence ben goertzel, AGI, SingularityNET, artificial general intelligence, artificial intelligence, transhumanism, futurism, futurist, regenerative medicine, advanced intelligence, blockchain, technology, singularity, Ethereum 2.0, Ben Goertzel, Cryptochicks, Vitalik Buterin, Adrienne Batra, Blockchain, AI and Blockchain

Id: 8PLk7RQzDns

Length: 39min 51sec (2391 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 02 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/Glatorius]

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[u/instatech159]

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[u/ScroogeMcDuckyPants]

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[u/alluva]

Privacy was one of the main issues discussed in this discussion on one of the most interesting intersection of two emerging technologies, AI and blockchain.

“The things that are happening are great and I don’t know whether people care enough about their privacy to discard those services,” Ben Goertzel said, mentioning that people have been watched closely already for a very long time. Vitalik added, “We want to hold back the data so we can participate in these markets but keep people’s data being protected.” Ben Goertzel emphasized the current mood against centralization by stating that individuals and large corporations do not want to be completely beholden to Google, Microsoft, and other titans of the tech world.