- You realize that even
there one cannot say that you are choosing this. You are an expression of consciousness. And consciousness, one could say, is choosing and you
think you are doing it. (bell rings) I'm surprised there's nothing on Google about Eckhart and free will, (audience laughs)
but maybe I haven't said anything about it, so here we go. (audience laughs)
(Eckhart laughs) As you know, it's an eternal
ancient philosophical question and there's never been a definitive answer that everybody would
agree with in that sense. So (indistinct), you mentioned
everybody's doing their best because nobody can act beyond
their level of consciousness, et cetera, for example. Okay, let's start on one level and then we go on to the next level. On the level of egoic unconsciousness, where you are a conditioned entity. Your mental-emotional makeup
is totally conditioned by the past, and you are
completely identified with the conditioning of your mind. And in that state, that
spiritually speaking is the unconscious state. It is obvious that in that
state there is no freedom at all because you are forced to act out the unconscious conditioning of your mind with which you are completely identified. So I think most people would agree, if you understand that, that on that level there is no possibility of freedom. Your actions are determined
by your conditioned mind. You are forced to act as you
do because there's no choice because choice would imply some awareness. So on that level, there's
certainly no freedom. Then awareness comes in. The
human being begins to awaken. Then it appears, I'm not
saying it is the case. It appears that then the human... Freedom begins to be a possibility because you can choose to step out of the conditioning of your mind. You can recognize a conditioned thought, and you are no longer
compelled to act it out because there is an awareness there. You can choose a certain course of action, not from the conditioning of your mind, but from presence. So you can act and you have much more freedom that before you could not have. Freedom comes with awareness. So then relative to the unconscious state, there is now freedom to act. But if you look more deeply even there, even there on that level, you are connected with the
totality of consciousness. You're only an expression of
the totality of consciousness. You are not really a separate entity. You are like a... Who said it? Was it Alan Watts who said, "In the same way that
the wave is something that the ocean is doing, you are something that the
whole universe is doing in the same way"? So the wave is something
the ocean is doing. You are something that
the universe is doing. So although it appears
from a certain relative to the previous state of unconscious, there is freedom, and relative to that, there is freedom. But then if you look
more deeply into that, you realize that even there one cannot say that you are choosing this. You are expression of consciousness. And consciousness, one
could say is choosing, and you think you are doing it. Sometimes people ask me, can
you choose to be present? And from one perspective, you can choose to be present. From another perspective, one could say that presence chooses you. It chooses to become present through you. Depends how you look at it. So in ultimate terms,
or in relative terms, there is freedom relative
to the unconscious state, when you become more conscious. But even there, it's only
relative to the unconscious state. Even there, there is not absolute freedom because you do not exist
as an independent entity. You are part of the web of interconnectedness that
is the whole universe. So, in that sense, there
is no freedom of choice of the individual because
ultimately there is no individual. (Eckhart chuckles) - Thank you so much. I appreciate it. (audience applauds) - Just want to add one more thing to that because you mentioned
everybody's doing their best and so on, and I agreed
that nobody can act beyond their level of consciousness. A question that may arise
though is responsibility and punishment because if the criminal or whoever the perpetrator
is not responsible because they are totally in
the grip of their conditioning, does that mean then that the perpetrator is not responsible for what they do? And it does seem to be the case. A very unconscious person in that sense is not responsible for what they do. Now, does that mean we
must not punish this person because he couldn't help it? Now that's a difficult point. There is a destiny for human beings. Human beings are meant to move
out of the unconscious state and if they are not moving
out of the unconscious state, they create suffering, and they will have to
suffer the consequences of their unconsciousness,
which eventually awakens them. So when humans suffer the consequences of their unconsciousness, eventually that leads to suffering and then there is a
possibility of awakening. So although they may not be
conscious for what they do, it doesn't mean that karmic retribution on that level does not operate. And when punishment is necessary, and sometimes it could be at the hands of the law or the judicial system. First of all, other humans
need to be protected from them. So they may need to be put away, and although they are not, they may not be responsible, but they will have to
suffer the consequences of their unconsciousness. And by suffering the consequences
of their unconsciousness there is a possibility of awakening. And so therefore I've had
contact with quite a few people who are imprisoned and
they have written to me, and they have experienced
an awakening in prison. They suffered the consequences
of their unconsciousness and that led to an awakening. I was actually scheduled to talk in a couple of prisons in California but I fell ill earlier this year so it had to be canceled. But hopefully soon I will be
able to talk to prisoners, both I had scheduled
both to a women's prison and to a men's prison. (audience applauds) (water rushing)
