DIY -How To Diagnose No Spark No Start. Bad Crank Sensor? FREE SBQM VIDEO

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than trying to get me to do it so we have all of those upgrades available still keeping the price the same whether or not you subscribe to schrodinger's box quantum mechanics i hope you enjoy the video it's a really good case study and again this will be available only for a limited time on youtube just to give you a sample of what you're missing over on the other channel enjoy [Music] [Music] [Applause] greetings quantum mechanics well i believe we have a good one for you today because i am actually not familiar with this system we're going to look at so the story on this one real briefly this is a 1999 honda civic that belongs to a kid who works at a jamba juice at a mall and uh obviously the kid is uh getting through school and um you know not a lot of funds right now so really hoping that this won't be really serious but he leaves his shift and finds that the car cranks but will not start so his only choice at that time was to uber back home he tells his parents about it and they start looking around for somebody that can hopefully help in the interim he's getting some hate mail from the mall security threatening to tow the car and this and that so i was contacted to take a look at this ultimately i did determine that there is no spark and then also looking at the tachometer there seemed to be no movement so of course i'm going in the direction of a possible crankshaft position sensor issue something like that while tracing that i come to find that the system seems a little more complex than i expected so unfortunately with the limited resources that i have available which was at the time just a volt meter and a test light that was pretty much all i had at the time i was unable to help him as much as i had hoped but did talk to his parents we got the car towed over here and we are going to hopefully fix it so like i said it's got a little bit of a complication and you'll run into that as we get there but let's do this let's catch you guys up to where i am let's reproduce the symptoms as i saw it in the parking lot really only a couple things that i could do at that point and you will be caught up with as much as i know right now so let's see if we can reproduce the symptom all right i am going to remove my microphone here and let you take a listen to the engine as it obviously you guys who have followed me for some time are a little bit clued in here but i'm not saying nothing let's just listen all right i am sure you guys will agree with me that this car has a compression problem but it is not the cause for the nose start for sure but again listening to that dip in one of the cylinders and you can hear that there's not that steady even beat with the cylinders one of them sounds different and that almost certainly is because of compression loss and it's the starter motor having an easier time going through that cylinder less resistance so it changes that sound that is not the reason this car won't start though so we will look at the spark next that is what i did like that and we'll put a test light up to that so let me get test light all right using a incandescent test light not a led one going to engine ground i'm just using one of the bolts for the shock here and i want to first make sure that i've got a ground on my test light so i'm going to go to battery positive and we can see the test light does light up there so i know i've got good ground that'll give something for this spark to jump to all right gonna crank it again we should easily see that spark and again if you didn't follow it before while i'm cranking as you see there will be no spark do listen to that sound that is very important if you're going to do diagnostics in the field that sound alone if you're with somebody that's buying a used car or something you tell them to run all right you can see there's no spark there hopefully also that compression issue is more apparent again not the cause of the nose start because we would still hear the engine trying to start from the other cylinders and it would just have a miss in it that is no spark and then of course what i did was went over to the distributor and actually i lied i didn't of course immediately go to the distributor there would be no reason to do that what i did was once i determined there was no spark i went and looked at the tachometer on the dashboard while cranking and found that the tachometer on the dashboard didn't so much as budge might as well go ahead and show you that you can see the tack doesn't even quiver or anything there now again that is not a definitive test there are plenty of cars where you do not see the tachometer move with cranking like that so not 100 but it was enough direction for me that i'm wondering if there's an issue with the uh cam the crank sensor uh one or both and the the first thing that i came across was a distributor it did occur to me one possibility maybe there is some issue where we don't have rotation with the distributor so of course i took off the distributor cap i can see the rotor is right here and it was handy having the kid around us he was cranking i would have him crank i could see the rotor was certainly turning and the other thing as well was that this is the main spark output usually you're used to there being a wire that comes out of here and going to the distributor cap so you'll have nine wires on a v8 or five wires on a four cylinder that kind of thing uh this cap only has four wires because the main output is internal in the cap so i tested for spark the same way you just saw at this single coil output and there was no spark there at all so of course determining that most likely this is going to be some kind of crank or camshaft position sensor error i went and looked at my connector here at the distributor and that's pretty much where the diagnosis ended for that night so much to my surprise for what i thought was going to be a very simple system there are eight wires to this distributor here and of course i i don't know what they are anyway but that usually is not a problem because of course i'm going to determine well you know there's going to be maybe a hall effect crank sensor and oh by the way if you are not familiar with cam and crank sensors you may want to stop here and review that video training on cam and crank sensors so you got good basic strong foundation of cam and crank sensors because that's the direction we're going to go into this vehicle here but uh really seriously if you want to learn this stuff you've got to have that repetition i would hope that you're at the point after watching that video that you would know the direction that i'm going to go before i go there but i can understand if you're just watching for entertainment or just you know for refresher or whatever but the point is is that i'm expecting there to be maybe a hall effect maybe an inductive i'm not sure i would tell from the wiring but i don't see why there would be eight wires leading into this distributor um my my guess of course you've got a single coil in there like with any distributor model so you're gonna have a coil signal input you're gonna have a reference you're gonna have a ground there's three wires you would have up to three on your crank sensor that that six i don't know where the other two could possibly come from so the only thing that i could do was at least i do know there's going to be at least one 12 volt input into this if for nothing else for the coil there has to be so i disconnected the distributor and i grabbed my test light which course is already at ground and i asked the kid to turn the car to on but not start it and i know from our basic ignition training videos and whatnot there has to be a 12-volt reference somewhere on here so i went hunting and pecking for it and i still don't remember which one it was thought it was one of these yeah one of these corner ones right there found one 12 volt input so that was at least some good news there that tells me right there this isn't likely to be a fuse issue or anything like that i'm testing the fuse right there so at that point just to confirm and again i don't know the design of this i'm just going on guesses right now but just to confirm that i do believe we've got a crank sensor issue or more likely because this is a distributor engine it would have a cam sensor internal in the distributor distributor is driven by camshaft so obviously your your cam sensor very often in the distributor what i wanted to do was confirm my suspicions here by seeing was there any fuel injector signal so the way that i did that would be different than what we're going to do now got our fuel injectors right up here i can actually touch them so i just held my finger on fuel injector while he cranked it and i could not feel any pulsing in the fuel injector so we got no fuel at least i think you know it's a little hard to tell by that way we'll do something more definitive but i believe we have no fuel i believe we have no spark obviously going in the direction of crank or cam sensor issue i was not able to locate a crankshaft position sensor on the engine typically that's going to be near the crankshaft pulley or also somewhere near the transmission using the drive plate as the reluctor wheel i was not able to find anything on the engine so i'm assuming uh most likely internal with the distributor there was not much that i could do at that point uh of course tried banging on it a little bit hoping to you know get it to work sometimes with a bad sensor you can tap it with a screwdriver or something had no luck with that and i told the kid well this is as far as i can go but i believe that's where our issue is so that's where we are now one thing i do want to do is is a couple things first of all i have my scan tool here so i am thinking we can just hook up the scan tool and i will bet you there is going to be a cam or a crankshaft position sensor error code the other thing that i could do is i just want to uh just for my own confirmation um really definitively confirmed that we have no signal to the fuel injectors and there is an easy way that i can do that just looking at the wiring all right we've got all four fuel injectors in view here and there is something that i can observe very easily here and that is that each fuel injector of course has just two wires it's going to have a power input and then a ground and that ground almost guaranteed because i've never seen to the contrary that ground is going to be pcm controlled so the way this works is you've got constant power to the injector and then when it's time for that injector to fire the pcm closes the ground which course completes the circuit opens the injector and then it opens the ground of course turning that injector off and it uses the cam and crankshaft position sensors to know which cylinders to do that for at what exact time looking close at the wire i can see we have a yellow with a black stripe wire here a yellow with a black stripe wire here a yellow with a black stripe wire here and a yellow with a black stripe wire here so what this is telling me is that on this design we have a constant power feed that splits in four places four branches to each injector and then we have a different colored wire as the second wire this one looks like red something this one looks um orange to me this one's blue and this one's a solid yellow and what that's telling me is i know where the grounds are because the wires that are the same color that is going to be a constant power feed the different colored wires on each injector are going to be the ground respectively going to uh pcm terminals now maybe i'm wrong about that i've never seen a fuel injector that was power side controlled even so if that's the case it would be the other way around the yellow with black would be a constant ground on all injectors and there would be different power feeds turned on each time at each injector i doubt that's the way it works i think it is the first method but either way i can easily test this with my test light and confirm if there's signal or not and that's without even looking at a wiring diagram or anything it is one of those two possibilities the different colored wires are either individual grounds or individual powers they're almost guaranteed individual grounds and i can test whether those turn on and off all i'm going to do is take a back probe and feed it into one of the different colored wires and in one step i'm going to be able to tell that i am correct that this is going to be a ground side switch system so let's see did i leave the uh key on it looks like i did good so with the ignition on the ground side you can see there's power the only way i could have power on the ground side is if that ground side switch is open think of our basic electrical series right so if that ground side were to close the light would turn off now it's also possible of course that we are on the power side of the injector and each wire that's a different color is the power so how do i know the difference well it's very easy i'm going to just unplug the injector if i am on a power that light will stay lit if i am on the ground we now lose that power connection through the injector and the light will go out and you see the light goes out so there is no question about it this is a ground side switch system we'll probably go ahead and review that really quickly on the dry erase board but just that simple test is telling me there is no question i am on the ground side of a ground side switch system if i'm on a ground side switch system when i'm cranking that ground should open and close open and close open and close every time that injector needs to fire that ground should close and the light will go out every time that injector needs to fire so let's see if that happens that was really unexpected actually to be honest with you because i didn't feel the injector pulsing when i had the kid cranking it but of course you've got a lot of vibration and things going and it's also not nearly as rapid and pulsing like like a hummingbird's pulse rate would be when the engine's running so i missed that this is something that i could have done in the field but you know what i it doesn't really change anything except for now you know i just don't understand this system more is what it is because i don't have um spark but we do seem to have fuel so it could be a bad coil could still be a crank sensor again no rpm indicated that but that is not definitive um well you guys are as caught up as i am now but i was not expecting that but we do have control to the injectors so that is a clue so my problem is this my problem is that it would normally be very easy for me to determine if we just have a bad coil here but with eight wires i i really don't have a way of knowing what i want to do obviously is i want to test this coil by putting an input signal to this coil but there are too many wires here to figure out this system so there really is no way around it i need to get a wire diagram the other thing is again i'm not familiar with this it still could be whatever the sensor is in here a camshaft position sensor this car still may have a crankshaft position sensor responsible for this but at least if i could get the coil to spark myself we could rule that out and we know which direction to go but i can't uh this this is um gonna need a wiring diagram because i have no idea why there would be eight wires here i i honestly can't even fathom that so why don't we do this let's go to the dry erase board let's cover the strategy that i used for this fuel injector here and um and then i'll go do some research and pull a wiring diagram and we'll go over it and we'll figure this system out all right so i just want to review with you guys because i want all of you guys watching to be able to do what i just did and that is walk up to a system take one look at it and already have an idea based on the basic electrical training that you have understanding these systems from the previous videos without even looking at a wire diagram without looking at a manual we know that is the design of this system there is no question about it i'm not even going to look it up in a wiring diagram for real there is no need to because we not only know this is the only way it can be but we proved it too and we also showed it's working so you're going to have a power come in it'll be fused and it branches off so every wire is the same color for the power to each injector and then each injector has a second wire off of it that's a different color each different color is the control wire and it's ground side controlled so each one is going to go you know maybe this will be one two three and four each has its own transistor sometimes called the driver and the pcm will know from various inputs typically camshaft position sensor crankshaft position sensor one or both and the pcm will know which one of these to close to ground and then when to open it again how did i know for sure that the colored wires are the ground well let's just take a look at one wire here so again we've got constant power coming in so we've got power coming in there now i don't know that a hundred percent for sure at the time what i did was i back probed here at the ground back probed at the ground and of course i've got my my test light here my test light bulb and my test light bulb was on now of course that's because we've got the power coming through here remember the basic electrical training videos the power is coming through here it's going through the coil in the injector and then to the ground but this is open here so remember filling the hose analogy from our basic electrical we're filling the hose with our electrons they've got nowhere to go anywhere i measure even here on the coil here anywhere i measure along this system is going to measure battery voltage anywhere that i measure the only way that changes is when this connection to ground is made once it goes to ground anywhere i measure on the positive side that light's gonna light but after the load after the load that light will not light because we're gonna have full voltage drop across that load remember our training now i of course did this a different way and that is again let's go back here this is open right here so anywhere we measure we fill this hose we've got 12 volts anywhere that we measure along this line even on the ground but what did i do i disconnected from the injector well look what happens when i disconnect from the injector we've got our power here but then there's no connection of that power through the coil in the injector over to this wire that i'm back probed on so i'm back probed on this wire now that we're disconnected that power ends here so when i disconnect that connector the light goes out connect it back up again now our power goes through the injector but it still still ends here but it's still present here so my light lights and that's how i was able to know that i was on a ground again if you're still not following that review that basic electrical series and it'll make sense but i'm able to do that right in the field i can take one look at that wiring and i go oh i know how i'm going to test that when we first connected up when the power was just on but i wasn't cranking well of course we have the test light lighting like i said earlier but then while cranking this ground is being turned on and off on and off when the ground is being turned on and the ground is connected we lose our voltage on the ground side remember our voltage drop lessens so that light goes out half a second later the pcm is commanding this to be open now it's open we've got our power filling the hose it's stuck here light goes on pcm says okay let's complete the ground it completes the ground again we lose our power on this line through voltage drop i'm tapped into where there's voltage drop the light goes out so hopefully that makes sense to you and you are comfortable being able to test a system like that and identify whether it's ground side or positive side controlled just by looking at it sometimes all right but while i am able to create my own wire diagram for that system i honestly for the life of me cannot figure out why there's eight wires going to a distributor that just is going to have a camshaft position sensor and a coil um i i i don't understand that so there's got to be more to it and i cannot guess on it because at this point your average 98 percenter is going to be putting a distributor in this vehicle most likely not even messing with it um well actually strike that what they would have done is put plugs and wires in the vehicle but as we can see there is absolutely no benefit to doing that and again what are they going to say when they put the plugs and wires and the vehicle still doesn't start what is the mantra that they're going to use that's all right needed them anyway right yeah why are they not replacing the drive plate on this vehicle doesn't it need it anyway i don't see them replacing shocks on the vehicle doesn't it need it anyway so yeah we don't do stupid excuses like that we are going to know for sure what is wrong with this vehicle so let me do some research all right we have our wiring diagram and now i can easily see why there are so many wires to this distributor it's because there are a lot more components than i had expected actually two more than i had expected at least and i am not even sure what they are so i'm gonna have to do more research but again with the wire diagram always starting with the thing you're working on it's a lot easier than looking at six million wires here we're gonna start right here this is the distributor assembly right here and we can see that it is made of a lot of stuff in here so the first thing is the ckp that to me is a crankshaft position sensor you know i i don't know why it's crankshaft position sensor i believe it should be camshaft position sensor because the distributor has run off the cam but anyway i guess they call it a crankshaft position sensor because if the cam and crank are in time i guess indirectly it is a crank sensor but whatever the case um we've got a white wire that is coming in from the computer actually strike that it technically it would be a white wire going to the computer to be really technical about it because this is going to be signal out so let's follow that i'm going to use this kind of really bad marker here and that goes to ckpm and i am not sure what the m means this is obviously going to be an inductive sensor we know that from our training videos on cam and crank sensor so um i'm guessing maybe that's whatever the m is it's either positive or negative maybe the other wire will be a clue the other wire is blue and you can see that they they change colors after the connector this is really common that you see that that they change colors after the connector but i'm just interested in in this side and actually i'm probably going to draw this over again on my dry erase board anyway i often do that on these more complicated systems because that way i can draw just the system i am interested in anyway that comes across here and it goes to ckpp i i'm assuming ckpp is crankshaft position sensorpositive and maybe that's negative i don't know but whatever the case is i know how it's going to work i just don't understand the labeling there the tdc is our next one here we've got red and green wires i don't have a red marker i don't believe i'm going to trace that up in pink and that goes to a tdcm all right well then i'm going to guess that the green wire then will go to a tdcp whatever that is i i honestly don't know tdcp is the green wire there and tdc of course to me means top dead center so i'm guessing it's some kind of maybe top den center cylinder number one position something um i i honestly don't know i've never heard of that in my life before but again we can see this is definitely going to be a similar design is our ckp here it's going to be an inductive two-wire sensor it's going to generate voltage that we will be able to pick up if we need to test that and then this third one i really have no idea because i can guess what ckp and tdc are cyp i honestly can't even fathom a guess cam shaft yaw position hell i don't i have no idea what that is we've got a black wire and that goes i'm going to just take a guess cyp m probably ah my black marker is dead let's do and actually we'll do that in a thicker black so it differentiates from the other one and then we've got a yellow do i have yellow i don't have a yellow marker i am just going to leave him alone i guess and the yellow is going to go up to cypp and it does cypp so i will have to research what those sensors are i am not quite sure but there are some other things that i do know one of them is going to be this yellow and green wire i really like my yellow and green wire that is important because that is our ignition input signal so i definitely want to trace him he should go to the pcm somewhere so he goes up here and he does go to the pcm where it says icm all right and that is in the icm we see we have the i c m here the ignition control module that is part of this assembly we also have a blue wire coming out and that is rpm output and um now i'm wondering you know bad i cm not seeing the rpm um if that could be a factor there i don't know um what else do we have coming out we we got to have our power we have not had a power come in yet and that i know is that black and yellow wire right that's the very first thing we did there he is right there black and yellow wire and that goes right to powering the ignition coil which is also in this assembly that is going to go right up to a fused power that is going to be on with uh keon all right it says honor start up at the top um what else do we have here there's also a black and yellow wire here that also goes to the icm that forks off of that power wire um so that is possibly some power for the icm maybe not quite sure what the deal is with that i will try to look up more about this icm it looks like the icm ground side controls this coil because here's primary output control but it's on the ground side of the primary winding so that must be how that works that's a blue wire there that is going to be internal i believe in that distributor that why those wires are not out here on the connector and so based on this yeah quite honestly i have um some more research to do because i need to really understand what the tdc and the cyp are and what their roles are in producing that output that ignition in signal i need to know how those factor in but now that we've got all this complication going here i would like to get that scan tool on there and pull some codes and maybe it won't be a crankshaft position sensor code after all all right let's see what we get for some codes here and this is a little disturbing why will this not connect should be on a pro line it is all right um so sometimes on some cars you have to have them actually running in order for them to read with scan tool right now i can just do ignition on so let's try reconnecting again but this will suck yeah this is not going to be able to connect all right well let's try one more thing let me get a basic code reader and just see if we can read the codes with a code reader all right a little secret here so you remember my guys from launch with the crp touch pro that i really loved absolutely loved that well initially they had sent me this to review which is just pretty much basic code reader to be honest with you i told them i wasn't going to review it i really didn't like it they sent me this anyway and i was like i don't know why you would do that i am not reviewing this because i really you know it's just a code reader yeah they just gave me this thing we have no fault codes wow well that complicates matters a lot all right well what do you do in this situation now where you don't have a direction you can't really get one very easily and you don't understand the system so well well you have to make your own direction in this case because we don't have help from the scan tool and we didn't get a lot of help from the wire diagram because we've got some components that i don't know what they control what i do know is we have no spark and we have fuel i am kind of leaning still in the direction of the crankshaft sensor just because of the rpm thing that's again just a guess and it's okay i'm not guessing it replacing a distributor or something like that i'm just guessing it what could explain the symptoms that i see and then we will eliminate uh or validate that guess another very good possibility could be there's just a bad ignition coil on this system that is entirely possible i just um i'm a little bothered by the tachometer not moving but maybe that doesn't have anything to do with it and the tack only works on the cars running i don't know what i think the best way to get a direction would be to understand what those uh what were they ckp and cyp components are because that would help to give us direction because we would understand what controls the spark in this system and then we have some way to go doesn't that make sense so i am going to hit the books and as usual i spend far more time doing research like this than i do actually fixing the vehicle so i will uh spare you those details but i will come back after i learn something so we will continue this okay so i did do a little bit of research on google and stuff online and i honestly did not find much but i did find enough that i think we can move forward on this so let me do this let's redraw our diagram in a little more simple fashion on the dry erase board because i can just copy that right off of this confusing wire diagram and focus just on what we need so let me do that all right so let's start here we've got our pcm with our inputs and uh well maybe maybe some outputs too like for example the ignition signal would definitely be an output because this is ignition in over here on this icm this uh ignition control module which is all in the distributor and coil assembly so we got our pcm here this big black box represents our distributor and coil assembly also icm assembly everything's all in the distributor a little worrisome i'm wondering if we just have something with whatever this cyp sensor is can you just replace that or do you have to replace the whole distributor um so i'm not totally sure on that that would that would seem wasteful but that may be possible that it's not serviceable let's start off here with our distributor coil and icm unit like that we know that we have it is indeed a crankshaft position sensor ckp turns out to be crankshaft position sensor i'm going to claim that it is technically more of a camshaft position sensor but if the cam and crank are in time i suppose it is a crankshaft position sensor we've got a white wire and a blue wire two-wire system for this sensor going into the pcm and what does it control crankshaft position sensor controls fuel injections so the fact the fuel injectors work uh there goes my crankshaft position sensor theory right just on that alone oh well no that's not true because there is a little more to it there there is a little more to it um it also controls the ignition timing but while the car is running okay so not not during cranking at least as far as i understand and it also detects the rpm as well now we didn't see rpm but i i believe there is a good chance actually a really good one that it may be this crankshaft position sensor is not used during cranking so that is because these other sensors here if we list what they do so the top dead center and it is indeed like i said top dead center position sensor and i i'm assuming it's top dead center on on number one but that will actually get a little complicated when we talk about the cyp whatever the top dead center sensor is and you know what now that i think about it it's probably a top dead center sensor based on the camshaft position or crankshaft position for each cylinder now that i think about it whatever the case is the top dead center position center determines the ignition timing while cranking the engine it also has a secondary feature in its to also determine if there is some issue with signal from the crankshaft position sensor so my guess is while the crankshaft position sensor is going to be outputting a signal it is actually the top dead center uh sensor during cranking where the spark timing is determined and that gets us to our cyp and what that is is it is a cylinder number one position sensor cylinder position sensor for number one and this it wasn't very clear on but what it does do is it detects for the fuel injection and i believe that's during cranking so during cranking your tdc and cyp at least as far as i understand during cranking those come into play for your ignition and your fuel and the ckp the crankshaft position sensor is really used once the engine gets started and it's running that's that's at least my understanding of it now obviously i'm a little wavery on that because i i couldn't really find complete information on these sensors and when they are used but i just know the cyp controls fuel injection my guess cyp is working we have fuel injector control we know that i'm now kind of aiming towards this top dead center control because we certainly don't seem to have the ignition timing worked out so we'll need to see if we can find a way of testing this and we've got our wire colors of red and green on that one at the connector so we could do that because cyp seems to be working we have a positive control so if we can detect signal off the cyp we can do the same method and see if we have it on the red and green wires for the top dead center control and of course for the ckp i do believe the ckp um the crankshaft position sensor really isn't the issue as i originally thought because we've got these additional controls um why we have a cyp sensor and a tdc sensor why those can't just be one thing and why everything can't be done off the ckp i was i don't know i have no idea why this system is like this all right so those are our sensors so i'm not sure if that's replaceable or not if we find an issue with any of these or if you have to do the whole distributor but i have a direction now i know where i'm going to go with the testing we then get to our icm which is also internal in this distributor that is your ignition control module and you can see that we've got an rpm output so for the tachometer that will eventually go to the tach off this blue wire we have a green and yellow i forgot to write that this is going to be very important a green and yellow that is our ignition input so when a signal is sent from the engine computer obviously based on input from these sensors based on input from these sensors it will put an ignition signal output that will ultimately fire the ignition coil as commanded by the icm so what i'd like to do is do a test on this wire first of all see if there is any ignition input if there is an ignition input on this green and yellow wire well i am going to say that all of this works and we have a coil problem uh the other thing with the coil of course we've got a positive input to the coil and it looks like we've got a primary coil control in the icm and that is going to be uh where's my wiring diagram where's my primer that's a blue wire so i i did label that blue and then um obviously once that primary coil is charged and then once you release that ground we're going to cause a collapse of the magnetic field to the secondary and that of course is going to go directly to the coil wire right to that coil output on the distributor itself so we have a couple of ways that we can test this coil and see if the coil works so we've got all kinds of things we can do now it's funny now we have the exact opposite problem is before earlier we really didn't have a direction to go on now i'm thinking do i just want to go ahead and try to fire this coil on my own and rule out if the coil's the problem and it's more a control thing or do we want to test our controls and rule out uh any of those failing to send signal to the coil i think i think the best way to do this i am pretty convinced from the little bit that i understand on this i am pretty convinced that if we have signal on this ignition input if there is signal on that green and yellow wire into the icm all of this can be ruled out i believe you're going to need these working in order to produce that signal so i think we're going to start there so one of the things i'm getting a little sick of cranking the engine and sitting in the car i just noticed the fuse box right here so i made just go ahead and make a remote starter out of the fuse uh a relay real quick oh check it out right here there's a fuel injection fuse right there 15 amp and and i can just see if this was on the youtube channel all the armchair experts well you're an idiot you didn't check the fuse i would have checked the fuse first i always took the fuse first it's just so funny because you guys saw the very first thing i did was check the fuse because we have power at the connector right there which only can be possible with the fuse there and um it's just so funny to see that i i'm not even going to check that fuse because i know there's power to it it's it's ridiculous it's like having a lamp on in your living room well took the circuit breakers the lamp is on oh for god's sake all right so i've got some wire here what i'm going to do is put this wire to a ground here make sure that's on there really good and i'm going to make sort of a spark plug in a way so i'm going to run this along and then have this gap right to the coil output yeah like that so if i do produce a spark i should be able to see it jump to the wire and it'll just go to a chassis ground there on the shock tower and first thing i want to do i want to make sure that i got a ground there because remember i'm going to be right here and i don't want any chance that that spark jumps to me if i don't have a good ground so i'm going to put my test light on the battery positive and with my test light on battery positive if the test light finds a ground i know that it should light so it should light there and it does so i know i've got a good ground wire there and that means that the spark should have no problem jumping to it uh let's see here oh what was i doing here oh yeah um there is no uh starter relay at this location so i think i'm going to try to do some tests without having to start the car at this time because it's a little problematic doing that with the camera and all that so i am going to look at my wiring diagram and i'm going to look for that input signal that ignition input now i'm pretty sure that was yellow and green and i can see it on my wiring diagram i can also see it on my dry erase board a lot clearer than i can here and let's just see here yep yellow and green so there is definitely a yellow and green wire right there let me get a back probe it is yellow and green and if i put a low amperage to that i could just use my test light should be able to uh create an ignition signal and create a spark so the first thing i need to do is make sure the ignition is on all right we'll adjust my spark gap so you can see that and we'll see if the spark jumps to there and what i want to do is get my test light to battery positive and i just verified we've got ground there so i want to put a little signal in here just low voltage and wow nothing happens um so again there may be other factors with this where i can't do this on on a um typical non-distributor ignition this would cause that spark to jump so either the coil is bad or there is more complication to this system i guess it's possible that grounding it on this design maybe the pcm grounds it i highly doubt that i may just go ahead and try that but i'm going to move my test light over to the battery negative so now i could ground that signal out and yeah i'm not sure whether that's just a coil issue which is our problem on this car or i'm more likely there are just complications with this where i can't do that as simple as i can on more modern vehicles and just generate that spark through a input so now what do i want to do um so one thing i could do is try to go directly to the coil so one of the problems though is that the the coil is ground side controlled uh through a blue wire but that unfortunately appears to be internal to the distributor so i would have to take this apart in order to do that and um that is okay but i want to just rule out some easier things first so so what i wanted to do was just go right to a confirmation on this coil jump a spark from the coil the coil's good unfortunately it doesn't look like i'm going to have that much simplicity with that so what i have to do now is either take this apart or i could easily rule out everything else except the coil that that would be an easier way of doing it all right well it is a little um complicating now that my ignition input test there did not produce a spark from the coil and that means there's a few more variables here unfortunately and and not the least of which is some of them that maybe that test is invalid because there's a little more complication but it seems pretty obvious to me you've got your inputs here with the ckp tdc and cyp that ultimately will have the pcm output an ignition signal that will spark the coil i put in my own ignition signal and did not spark the coil so our variables are we may have a problem with the coil the coil itself could be bad we could have a problem with coil ground because that was not tested we also could have a variable where there is more necessary in this system than just this ignition input but i don't think so it does look um well you know the the ignition output to the coil looks like there there may be some control from the icm and the icm may be using some different inputs uh not shown on here but yeah you know honestly i actually uh on any other car if i test the ground and i put a signal into that coil and there's also 12 volts to that coil which i know there's 12 volts of the coil that was the very first test we did um if i put that signal in with my test light like that and that coil doesn't fire i'm done that coil is bad so if this was on like a coil on plug on a more modern car or something but again we did not test that the ground works on this so so we do have a variable with that could also be a bad coil again removing the distributor would be necessary to examine that there is another possibility that i think i could do again we tried to put my own ignition signal into the coil but i am also convinced that these sensors ultimately produce that ignition output from the pcm i think i can test all of these at once if i can crank the engine and verify there is a signal on this green yellow wire now that's a little bit more challenging done than said and that is because usually this is really low amperage here so it's not like i can just back probe this and put my test light there and see it flash like with the injector signal the fuel injector signal these generally don't work like that where there's not that much amperage in doing this so um what i may be able to do though is use a led test light because that requires far less amperage but you're not going to be able to just use a regular test light for this so really again the best way to test that would be with a scope if i put a scope on there and i see a square wave that i'm i'm i'm done that's going to rule out all of my sensors here and i'm going to say we've got a problem with the coil or some coil ground issue and that would eliminate all my other variables so i think that might be a good way of going i do also just to understand the system better though i do want to look at these outputs and verify because again i'm expecting these are going to be inductive sensors and we should see that kind of oscillating wave if we looked on a scope and we may do that just for educational purposes just so i can validate my understanding of the system seems uh accurate but right now let's just go ahead and verify if we can get signal at this green and yellow ignition input which would tell me that if nothing else the ckp and tdc must be working i'm already positive the cyp is working because we saw fuel injection signal so let's try that all right i'm going to keep my little sparky guy there just so that if i do produce spark since i'm going to be working around this area it's less likely to jump to me we've still got our test light on to the battery negative so let's touch it to the battery here and make sure and yeah you can see just on the corner of the screen the light lights up so again uh what i'm not going to be able to do is just put that test light into there and expect it to light as i crank the engine that's not going to happen because there won't be enough amperage to light that light but what there will be is with a led light so what i'm going to do is get this led test light i'm going to put this on to battery negative and this should flash so you can see right there we do actually have voltage on there right now that would not have been enough to light up my incandescent light you need 250 milliamps to light that light up we only need i think it's it's something like 20 or maybe 50 but i think it's more like 20 to light this guy up so what we're going to do is crank the engine look to see if that flashes and this may actually rotate rather rapidly with the one output here so so this this could actually flash very fast so to make it easier i'm going to turn the lights down and let's see if that flashes as i crank if it does that's going to be pretty clear indication to me that this computer is receiving signals from here from the cypk ckp and tdc sensors and producing an output so let's try that all right well it did look to me like that was flashing albeit fairly rapidly and it was a little bit hard to confirm 100 that it was really flashing because it didn't seem there was time for the light to go out all the way but that that did seem to be control to me again another reason why scope would be so helpful that may have been a little bit inconclusive a square wave on a scope would be a hundred percent definitive and i think at this point that may be where i want to go next so i think what we're going to do if i didn't have a scope i would go on the assumption that we have signal to the coil and the coil is not firing and this would rule out all of my sensors my ckp tdc cyp is all working to produce that signal but i need to be a hundred percent so i am going to hook up the scope and we're just gonna verify that what we saw was legitimate control for that ignition signal so i've got my lead wire which will go right to the channel one in the picoscope you have a lot going on here right now this looks like a mess uh what i want to do is get a negative lead and that's going to go to ground um hey i got a nice ground wire right here as a matter of fact my spark wire will serve as a ground and then my positive lead where is that my positive lead is going to go right to that ignition signal and let's see not sure what time frame we'll want here we'll just start at a half a second uh we don't need a trigger right now and i don't think we're going to be at a 20 volt scale let's just bring that down a bit we may have to adjust that later that may be enough that we can see if we have a square wave on this thing so let's give that a try oh yeah that's that's a real signal for sure let's go ahead and clean that up a little bit so let's go ahead and stop that go back to it okay so we can see that we need to actually increase the voltage scale as well as the time frame make it a lot faster let's do that we'll just try that without a trigger i don't think we need to freeze that signal it should just be an on off square wave now it would help if i run it so we got to go up here to this top corner and run it to go live that's a square wave yep that is definitely a square wave so uh boy you see how handy having the scope is when you've got things that are just a little difficult to interpret so that tells us that uh we do have a ignition input signal going in there and this coil is still not firing so what does that tell us about our sensors the ckp cyp and tdc those must be working you know while we've got this scope hooked up let's just test one of those because we know that that is not going to be expected to be a square wave signal so let's do this all right what i want to do is i just want to show you if you did not have a scope well you would you would probably have to use your standard digital volt ohm meter like this and we would put it to 20 volt scale we would put one end of it over to a ground and we can still use our little spark wire ground there the other end would go to your sensor this one's from the picoscope i know it looks like a mess here and what we would do um oh wow you can see that we do already have 12 volts there um already by default with the engine on and what we're going to see is based on that output you might expect that you're going to see 6 volts because you're going to have an average of the on off but remember look at our duty cycle let's go back here and oh crap it looks like i left this running so i i think i ran it off but if you remember our square waves i'll put it up in the corner here for you but if you remember our square waves had a much much longer on time than off time so that's going to skew that average so out of that 12 volt on off signal well you've got more time on than off so this is going to be more like a 8 volt signal that we would see on the multimeter the only problem is is that you don't have any way of telling that that's an average from a square wave you're just going to see 8 volts and you don't know if you've got a low voltage problem or something or if you're just looking at the average from a square wave so again the reason why a scope is so helpful let's go ahead and bring that volt meter over all right we're going to do the same exact test as we did with the scope but this time trying to measure it with the dvom and we did we get about eight or nine so again you can see is that your indication that you've got a perfectly valid square wave or is that indicating that we have some kind of a voltage problem you don't know unless you've got the scope all right so now what we're going to do is we're going to do the same thing but we're going to do it on one of these sensors and i know that these sensors are going to work we've got crankshaft position sensor so that if we look on our wiring diagram we've got our two wire sensor so we are not expecting this to be a hall effect sensor where we would see a square wave we are expecting this is going to be more of a sine wave type signal it's going to produce an ac voltage and we again can do the same thing we can test that with the volt meter but it won't be very conclusive on the scope we're going to see that we've got the pattern that we want we've got a white coming in that then transitions to a light blue and yellow and then we've got a blue that comes in that transitions to a light blue okay so looking at this connector here we have our crankshaft position sensor we've got on the one side of the connector where it comes in from the pcm we are going to have a white wire coming in that then changes to light blue with yellow towards the distributor on this side of the connector and there is not a light blue and yellow there is definitely not a light blue and yellow on here wow um okay so this wiring diagram has a mistake in it i believe um we have a white wire coming in that transitions to white blue and yellow so let's look for the white wire coming in there is there's a white wire coming in right there and that lines up with this wire that is solid white and that is not what this says there is a solid white on this side of the connector for the cyp and that would cross with a black coming in so let's see where's the black wire coming in this corner right here is a black coming in and it's also black coming out so damn this wire diagram has some errors here um i in this case i can tell you that the wires coming in definitely look consistent with the connector it's the wires on the other side of the connector that are not consistent and i wonder if that could be from a distributor replacement at some point previously so i'm going to go based on the wires coming in we would be more interested in this tdc position sensor because that is more relevant to the ignition with cranking we know that's going to work because there's an ignition signal but it just makes a more relevant test for this example so let's see if we look at the tdc we have a white with a blue stripe and an orange with a blue stripe there's a white with a blue stripe right here just to be sure because again we're we're not a hundred percent the white with the blue would be opposite of a red coming in and it is there's a red coming in right there transitions to white and blue so this wire matches up with our diagram gonna probe him and then the other one on the tdc is going to be a green wire coming in the transitions to orange and blue where is a green wire coming in there's a green wire coming in second from the right and there is an orange and blue coming out that would be m all right so now we've got our tdc connector probed and again this we are expecting we know it's going to work but i am expecting that this is going to give us a kind of sine wave pattern not a square wave let's first because we already have the dvom hooked up let's take our dvom i'm going to set it to a 20 volt ac scale and this is just going to prove our concept that we know our basic electrical and we can anticipate things based on that and verify that they go according to plan all right let's see what we get here all right well you see we definitely have some signal there now again is that our sine wave is that a good signal can we say yep we have definite output that we know is good i i don't i don't know i don't feel comfortable with that and i never did even before i owned a scope and this is how i would do it kind of feel like i'm guessing a little bit sure indication is pretty strong and it's better than if we didn't see any signal if we saw nothing at all on there oh yeah definitely some issue for sure but is that the right signal well let's verify it so we'll go to our scope here and we need our positive from the scope we'll go and it doesn't matter the polarity here honestly but we're going to do the positive for the scope on one of these and then the negative the negative wire which was on our spark catch there as a ground that's going to go on to the sensor ground here at least i think it's sensor ground i don't know doesn't matter if i mix these up we're just going to have a sine wave and let's take a look here [Laughter] all right so looking at this i i do believe it's probably making sense even though it's not exactly like i said earlier in retrospect this is a what is it a top dead center sensor so it's only going to catch i believe on the the top dead center positionings as opposed to say a crankshaft position sensor where you would get i expect much more of the usual consistent sine wave but that's definitely a specific signal so we know that that's working and of course we knew it's working anyway we have an ignition signal just to be sure 100 i'm sure 100 but just for demonstration really i'm gonna go ahead and hook this thing up to the crankshaft position sensor signal i fully expect we should see a different pattern where it's just nothing but these sine waves so let's see if we can do that all right again looking at our sheet here crankshaft position sensor we know we've got white coming in yellow with blue coming out but that was not correct so i'm going to go to this white coming in and it's a white coming out and that's all right it's not what our diagram says but our diagram is incorrect on that i am sure of it all right and then the other side of the crankshaft position sensor we're going to have a blue coming in with light blue coming out that one i know is accurate um i remember so there's a light blue coming out i am satisfied with that being the correct one that probe him we'll get our leads on there for our pico and let's see what this wave form looks like hopefully you know this isn't just showing off picoscope this is to validate my understanding of this system which is going to make me more certain in making my call because everything is adding up and making sense except for the thing that isn't functioning and again i gotta press the start gotta go up to the corner here and press run okay that's what i expect yep that is what i would expect an inductive crank sensor to look like for sure so everything absolutely is making sense to me hopefully it is to you so your average hack is long before any of this they would put a distributor in the vehicle most likely they would fix it most likely they would on a guess but here's the problem with that the problem with that is that there is one explanation let's say that we had done the ignition test with the scope and we saw our square wave it didn't look anything like that remember it was sort of a very long on duty cycle like that what if we did this and we did not see a square wave if we did not see a square wave now you can't really be sure that replacing the distributor is going to fix that because if we do not see this square wave here if we just saw flatline here what are the explanations for that well one of them would be any sensors here that are responsible for that square wave production are failed and of course replacing the distributor would ultimately fix those or we could have it where the signals are functioning and they're reaching the pcm but the pcm is bad and not putting out an ignition signal it's also possible we just very simply have an open wire or short to ground or something in the ignition wire so replacing the distributor is not going to fix that it wouldn't fix a bad pcm that's why it's important to understand these systems so that i know for a fact we are getting production of these signals they are getting to the pcm and the pcm is working it's processing them and sending a signal back to this distributor our issue is here our issue is with either the icm's command to the coil or the coil itself or however the coil is grounded our um we had a coil ground indicated in the diagram i believe it was just a black wire or something like that but it's not in this connector here i believe that that's internal in the distributor so at this point what i want to do is i want to access that coil it'll be easier for me to just pull the distributor at that point and we are going to see if we can just manually fire that coil if we cannot giving the coil a ground and giving it an input if if i do that and this coil doesn't fire we are done we are putting a coil in this car and that is all now the only question is can you do that can you put a coil into the distributor or is the distributor non-serviceable and we have to replace the whole thing anyway that i don't know but i don't care because i want to find out exactly what the problem is here so that i can um give a better presentation for you guys and show how you would do this on a car where you could maybe isolate the coil so let's do that i don't want to just walk into here with reckless abandon and remove this distributor got to remember that this has to go in the right place the cap i'm not worried about it only fits on one way and i can just leave the wires connected up there so i don't have to worry about those can always look up the information on the firing order and the locations of the wires they're labeled up already from somebody previously it looks like but not worried about that what i do want to do is take note of the rotor position here and i want to mark that with some paint or something this way i can make sure i put my distributor back into the exact alignment that the engine is in and i won't have to bring the engine the top dead center or anything so i'm going to make a straight line through all the components there and when i reinstall the distributor as long as i don't rotate the engine we should line up the way we were before and now i feel comfortable removing this distributor all right we are going to test this uh probably a couple ways here but what we want to do is first review because actually for me this is the next day i think for you this is like two seconds later but i decided to take a break so let's review where we're at real quick all right yes now i remember it is very clear to me we tested all of these components and we know that all of these inputs work the pcm works and the pcm output is good so our issue can only be a bad icm a bad coil or however the coil is grounded in here and i'm not quite sure on that kind of indicates the icm has some kind of grounding control as well as some kind of input control i tried to look up about the icm i could not find any description on how it works but that's okay because the testing we are going to do is still going to conclusively show if our icm is bad or the coil is bad if both of those test good then um well then we got a problem but uh would have been nice if my scan tool worked i was thinking i'll bet there's pids for the tdc sensor and the cyp sensor we could have seen the pids with the engine um cranking but unfortunately we have no scan tool communication without the engine running apparently so we need to rule out bad icm or bad coil i will say replacing this distributor will definitely fix that problem because no matter what our issue is we know that it is in this distributor because we tested everything outside of the distributor we know all of our wiring and inputs to the pcm are good we know our ignition output is good this issue is in this distributor right here and it's just a matter of what is the issue icm or coil and if we can actually replace just one of those if we find that to be bad so let's go ahead and do some testing on here all right so as you can see i've got a battery here we are going to try to output a spark here as one of our tests we've got a bunch oh i see how we have this laid out now this all makes sense now so we have right here what is clearly the crankshaft position sensor is what they are calling it because we got this reluctor wheel oh this distributor spins terrible wow it's super loose and raggedy boy honestly this distributor needs to be replaced anyway but i'm not just going to call an easy out on this go we'll distributor needs to be replaced anyway no we're still going to figure out exactly what the issue was because remember this car also has a compression problem so if i can get by just replacing the coil that is what we are going to do so let's see here uh as you can see we've got a reluctor here we've got our inductive sensor so that is going to be the crank sensor right here we've got a whole bunch of wire plug-ins that is going to be the icm right there and this obviously is the ignition coil and look at that they even give you a positive and negative uh as well uh check it out on the positive i can see a black wire with a yellow stripe that is this wire up here on the connector that i initially measured power at so one test we could do we could take our volt meter we could make sure there's power really getting to this coil we knew it was getting to the distributor but i can set to continuity scale here i like to put a little noise meter on there so if i get continuity i can hear it a black wire with yellow stripe to the positive goes right there our other end that i tested earlier to the distributor where we know we got power is here and we see we have continuity so we know we are getting power to that coil so that is not our issue also we got a green striped white wire and a green stripe white wire here so that is going to be our input on this side this looks like a ground control or something over here but whatever the case is this here is our ignition input so i want to take that wire out uh or at least lift it up enough that i can measure continuity there with our ignition input that we know is reaching the distributor all right we are going to test that the same way we've got one wire up here that's our white with green that was our ignition input we know there is ignition input from the pcm into there the question is is it getting to the icm and it is it does get to the icm we know that we have continuity there one thing it is occurring to me how to test this icm we would actually probably need it on the car to test the icm but it doesn't matter it actually doesn't matter if we find this coil is good this icm is bad period end of story so it doesn't matter we don't really need to test the icm we can just test the coil so the couple ways of testing the coil one thing is that again with the coil test we should have continuity on the primary windings here so if we test here and here we see we do have continuity it should be probably about an ohm or so and uh very very low resistance on that primary winding we also i believe i may be wrong about this so this may not be a valid test i think we should have continuity do the secondary here and that's going to be really really high resistance so we need to crank our meter up and yeah we do have a very high resistance there probably like 17 000 ohms or so there is a spec you can look up honestly i'd never bother with that i don't like doing resistance tests to validate a part i only like it under load when it's performing so i am only going to believe the spark test on this so at this point we've got every indication that everything there's no wiring problem with this distributor that that we suspect so far what we want to do is fire this coil so before i do that i want to uh set up a positive control i use a coil that i have somewhere around here let me find it all right well this will actually work i have two of them i've got this a little two-wire coil and then i have a three-wire coil i know they are good and i use them just as controls to make sure my testing works so we're going to set this guy aside for a second here and what i want to do is wire this guy up to the battery all right want to be very careful that these don't cross because when i uh connect this to the battery if this is shorted that's going to be a pretty miserable experience so that's why one of these i have insulated the clip is all right this insulated clip is up to battery positive uh this is going to be my on off switch so i'm going to set him whoops there goes my battery positive get back on there all right so i got my battery positive i've got the negative but i'm just keeping that away from the terminal for now that's going to be my on off switch by grounding it out that's going to be my way of energizing this coil and causing the spark and then what i've got here is the last time i tried to do something like this because you're working really close in this area you get shocked sometimes so what i'm going to do to prevent that is i'm just going to use this little light here and as i energize the coil that light is going to light up so i'm going to touch this here and you know what it's pretty bright in here so let me turn out the lights and you will see that this light will light up indicating that the coil is working all right just putting that to the output and uh this doesn't usually work hugely well but you can see it does light like that so i know this coil is good it is putting out spark all right so what we want to do now is that same exact test on the ignition coil from this honda all right there's my positive now i need my negative here actually i can just control that at the coil i bet it'll probably be a little bit easier so i'm going to connect this up to my battery negative right here and then this i will just touch to activate the coil so now i just need to get my little test light over here the test light is to battery negative obviously grounding all right we're going to set my test light into the coil output oh it lights it actually lights i don't know if you guys can see that let me reconfigure over here all right focusing in on the tester right there and yeah you can easily see that that's working every time i let off of the ground after connecting it when i let off the ground that is going to cause the spark to happen we see it lights it lights exactly the same as my good coil did we are done this is a bad icm all right that is why i love scientific methods so much when you do it properly which means that you consider all the possible variables and you just come down to the one single variable that must be responsible for your observation you know for a fact that that is going to be what it is so there is absolutely no question i don't even have to worry about it i can call this kid up and i can tell him we can put an icm module in here if possible or another distributor i know that the car is going to run so the only issue is i already did call my folks at o'reilly and it is actually a little interesting you can get just the icm module however it would take them five days to special order it in you can imagine they don't stock a lot of icm modules who who diagnoses an icm module right they just throw a distributor in there when they see no spark after replacing plugs and wires right and and that would fix it most likely but uh the icm module it would take five days to get here and it's a hundred and eighteen dollars a new distributor is a hundred and sixty dollars and they have one in the store right now so obviously no brainer on that just to be sure i am going to go ahead and call the owner of the car and i'm going to confirm what he wants to do so i will be back all right so the kid obviously has been without his car for a couple days already with this issue he cannot wait another five days it is way more expensive for him to try to uber to work and things like that so we are going to put a brand new distributor in this car i'm a little disappointed because i did want to show just the icm would do it but we've got to do what's best for a kid who's working his way through school and doing the right thing now doing the right thing also is considering the fact that remember we know this car has a compression problem so i certainly don't want the kid to be investing too much into this car in the future uh he's working all day today i do have another couple cars that i've got to do and i'll be filming but i do think i'll have time to look and see what is the deal with that compression thing so if there is more video left at the end of this then i'm just going to include it as bonus footage here otherwise maybe i'll just make a a separate video but god i've got hundreds of videos on compression issues so i'll try to just fit it as bonus video on this one at the end so if i don't see you later thank you for watching i hope you found this very educational we will see you next time but if this thing goes on we're going to do a compression thing real quick oh my god i forgot i do have to show at least the the car running after i put the distributor in my god okay at least we're gonna do that so let me go get that distributor we'll install it and test it real quick all right you can see new distributor in the vehicle and let's crank this thing up there we go [Music] oh yeah it it has a bit of a bit of a miss you might be able to hear it but it's really not that bad yeah if i got time we will see what's going on with that uh compression thing maybe give him an estimate how urgent this is you

Channel: Schrodingers Box

Views: 368,933

Keywords: car wont start, cranking no start, no spark no start, scannerdanner no start, south main auto no start, crankshaft position sensor, camshaft position sensor, replace crankshaft sensor, how to diagnose no start, south main auto crank sensor, scannerdanner crank sensor, how to replace distributer

Id: ucGPjmBR6gQ

Length: 91min 25sec (5485 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 31 2021