Discussing the Meaning Crisis with Paul Vanderklay

I feel like it's weird cuz it happened on on Easter Saturday for Orthodox Easter Saturday and I really feel like I didn't get pasta like there's no Easter this year that's kind of how it feels and I'm still kind of in the cave you know I'm still down we're still kind of down in that in that cave and so so that's kind of how it feels but um yeah at the same time it's been amazing you know it's been amazing it's been amazing to see all these people that have supported us financially are so many messages prayers people you know it's just been that's been just astounding for me very touching and encouraging just wants you to not crumble and just keep going and and so and I'm not a very practical person which is one of my you know like that really because I'm a carver they think that I'm a very that I'm a practical guy but uh but uh but no IIIi can carve the most precise little miniature but I'll if I cut the board for my carving I'll make half an inch mistake that's how it is for me so so I yeah so it's so so now like going back I was just there yesterday and then a few days ago stripping more stuff for my workshop you know putting up fans and then decontaminating with all these chemicals and stuff and just it's just so counter nature to me it's good for me but it's it's uh if we have to kick myself to get to something like that now is it settled that you can move back into that area and we have a catch-22 situation it's it's that we actually probably have to go back because what happens is the government usually the law that was passed a few years ago was that if your your flooded and it's a it's a floatable hairlike it's a lake that floods your house and if you have the the government will not let you rebuild or if you accept like if you accept a certain amount to rebuild then if it floods again they won't give you anything so they'll give you an amount it's like a set amount it it ends up being maximum 250,000 Canadian and you leave that's it you demolish your house you're gone but because there's so many people flooded and because it was a dike they they made us into an exception so they've said although it will be considered floodable area although all of this is true we're giving you the right to still go back and rebuild and you have to do it fast because in six months then you won't be allowed to rebuild the way that you've rebuilt Wow and so which means that now we had we had our kids in the basement and so they'll be in a floatable area like it'll be considered floodable by a from now on it's like we were living in an imaginary world so so we don't want to put our kids back in the basement but now we can't leave we have to go back then we had we are we have a very small house and two of the rooms where the basement and we have three kids so anyway so now the only option we have is to put a second floor on our house because we can't we we have to go back and we can't sit with no one's gonna want to buy that house for at least five six years right and and so it's like so now we're so now we so that's what we that's what we're looking at and I mean thankfully people we've had some help we had the GoFundMe was was pretty successful so that'll be like a nice like a nice starting point to be able to do that but I probably and also I've always been debt averse my whole life so I have a very very small mortgage like it's ridiculous how little my mortgage is so I can probably borrow on my on my mortgage and then rebuild so you know Wow yeah but it's it's even the dislocation you know these things these things work in us in weird ways and so yeah I continue to pray for you and your family thank you I keep telling people though this is not the first time we were evacuated we've been evacuated several times but not with not the same this is more like our kids are older and we're well we also have to deal with their emotional thing you know before that it was like us we had to deal with it and we had very very smoky I didn't know what's going on it's like they were just on this trip traveling or whatever right oh we can see are their youngest daughter who just breaks out crying because she misses her house and yeah and and and I realized oh she's actually never lived anywhere else yeah now I've lived many places I've lived all over all over the map but she's never lived anywhere else so it's so her attachment to that house is way deeper than mine yeah yeah so that's that's been something that I've discovered which has been touching but also kind of okay so I need to take this seriously like I can't just be take also I can't just treat this house like it's just an object I realized so there's history here I need to I need to also consider that with my kids you know at least deal with it talk to them and no matter what happens you know but I we're telling them that that would add that house that we lived in it's gone I mean although we're gonna ma we're probably gonna go back there it's not it's not going to be that house it's going to something else it's gonna have to for it for a child that is a whole different thing than it is for you and you're sure for sure for sure yeah so but that's that's life in this world and yeah exactly that will be that will be something for your kids that and this will be it this will be a major event for your children your lives it'll be something that they'll always think about and it will reshape them as they grow up this will be something that for good and for ill both unity it's and luckily we have you know we take the time to sit together and talk about it and explore you know and so I think the kids feel like they're part of the discussion at least so yeah but you know you you it's so weird it's like when you you're going through that and then you look around and you see you know I mean I I look at Jordan with Jordans going through oh and and it's crazy you know and so and so you think okay life you know you you always have to remember that no like Jordan always says no matter how bad it is it could always get worse yeah so you really have to really have to approach things in a different way so and and Jordan has been a it's crazy I mean right in the midst of you know him being at the hospital every day and think he'd write me little notes and say how are you doing how's your family doing it and I'm like Jordan don't you don't have to pray me yeah you've had your own thing to deal with you know it's it's okay anyways yeah I I had I'd sent him a note and just you know expressing my concern and telling him that I was praying for and and he wrote back and he's a very caring individual and and that comes through and and how many of the times when he breaks down when he talks about people coming up to him expressing what you know great what he's done for them but it's it's you know a number of years ago when I was I was I got sick as a pastor of doing little series which is sort of the Protestant way and so I started just preaching through the Bible serially and which allows deep dives into books of the Bible and one of the one of the things that I came out with was was this little phrase that I I plagued my congregation with which is the age of decay because that is that is the biblical sense of what we live and we live in the age of decay it's not that isn't reality but it's the age we live in it's the govern it's the governing paradigm we live within and that's a a deeply troubling thing for us that that houses go relationships go things we build go and so it's and it comes to all of us none of us none of us get out of this world alive exactly exactly so how about you how how are things how's the your your I keep I keep being astounded at how many videos you're able to put up and I you know but and now what's great is I can actually watch the videos of the people that I know which is which is which is intense so I saw you talked to Sevilla and then you talked to Jeff Phillip who's been part of our my like little inner group that we meet every month and we talk for for about an hour just a small group of us like the top patrons and we have this like this little seminar going I was really happy that you talked to him because I really feel like he's a very perceptive and very sharp so so that was good he was he was he was so much fun to talk to now it's it's been I mean the last year and a half since I started the videos it's been crazy but it's been terrific ministry we just had a meet-up last night my throat's a bit I've had a whole bunch of meetups and stuff lately so my throat's a little worn out I guess but we had a so Benjamin voice was in town and told me that Benjamin ko so how did that go that went great we had we had fun we recorded some video yesterday I took him out for dinner with my wife and so we got to meet my wife and then we had a meet up at church to meetups two days in a row okay just because of scheduling and just you know it's so funny because we have these meetups and most of the people who come are atheists but they they they're surprised as I am that here they are sitting in church and you know god they're not as dismissive of the whole thing anymore they don't believe but they're just kind of curious about the whole thing and then one atheist last night was after the meeting so we have the regular meeting and then the after meeting and people kind of breakups into threes and fours and conversations continue and and he looked around he says you know you you you're starting a new church here I said well it's not really a church right now but yeah you got all these young men and so it's it's been it's been phenomenal and the conversations the individual conversations I've had with people I kind of paused them for a few weeks because I've got vacation coming and I have to have to kind of catch up with something my goodness I imagine but it's I I don't want to stop them and I don't want to I don't really want to regulate them in terms of me picking who I talk to because the individuals that find me and share their story with me that's been that's been transformative for me and so I this this whole journey has been just phenomenal so starting a new meetup groups and when Jordan kinda hit his peak a lot of meetup groups started a lot of those have kind of fizzled yeah but mine my group continues to grow and it's growing now mostly with people inviting their friends to the meetup and and so now I've got a some of my pastors in the Bay Area I'm kind of pushing them too you know you should you should do this and so we had another church that started a new one and you know they had 20 people in there first their first their first night and the pastor you know the pastor has some good skills he's the right guy for it and I thought this will go so it's been great yeah and but at some point maybe that then the name of the meetups will have to evolve yeah could be find some mother because like you said Jordan kind of he kind of exploded now you reached his peak then obviously for a while at least until something else happens it's going to it's gonna fade I mean maybe not who knows like I keep thinking that he's reached the top of what he can agree but you can keep going but at some point you know it's good like you said it's gonna fade like a normal wave like any wave and so to keep the momentum going I'm sure there are ways to rename and to rebrand the meetings because now this whole discussion that's going on it's pretty intense pretty interesting to see John grab a key come in and and you and myself and then there's people like Sevilla who's extremely intelligent and very perceptive and so I'm seeing these people kind of pop up and I'm thinking you know Benjamin voice is part of that as well and there's other peripheral people that um that are probably worth kind of bringing in and getting into the discussion but I think that fostering this this type of discussion at this level yeah that that could be a good path for the future in terms of people continuing the discussion even as Jordan kind of you know moves on to something else or whatever it is that he decides to do yeah we need great for the discussion to continue I've thought a lot about that you know what are we gonna name these groups and at this point at least still Jordan's name yes brings people brings it's weird it brings Pete all together with the right disposition to have a conversation yeah and that's and and then like I said now in terms of my meetup here most of the growth is from people inviting other people maybe come and they and they're just it was funny we had a guy named Tim who's actually Orthodox and he's one of the guys who really wants to bring you to Sacramento one of these years with his church and he says to me after the last meeting said meet up Sunday night we had a little group that we decided that group was going to talk because he split up into little groups we're gonna talk about Jordan Peterson and he's like I've been here four times and this is the first time we've talked about Jordan Peterson but people people bring up you know sort of whatever's on their mind but it always has had the Nexus of of religion meaning just a lot of people just coming to sort faith sort things out it's a it's a place that they feel feel welcomed and free to pretty much ask anything and have it be you know worked on both seriously but also you know respectfully so it's for me I've always you know there's this there's this place in the New Testament in I think it was in Corinthians when the Apostle Paul rents out this Hall of Tyrannis and you just a few verses and basically you have the sense of the Apostle Paul renting out this all and people come in from miles around to talk with him and discuss with him and you know you have a sense of kind of a Mars Hill thing where people are debating the philosophies of the day not debating but discussing in terms of their own personal lives I've always dreamed to have that the church would be a place like that where people could come in and and talk through their stuff yeah Wow there's your dreams come true right there it is it really is and you know it's it's just crazy to me that well here's this you know Canadian psychologist who would make up and have a fit about pronouns and somewhere along the line that would start something like that it's incredible I I'm probably I one of the some of the heat that I'm getting is that I'm not doing anything in French because French is my first language I do live in a French place you know I live in Quebec a French is the Ling language I live in actually and so I will probably I'm thinking of in this fall starting some kind of meet-up of some kind of talk to some people around me that you know I've seen on social media that I know are from the area and it seems like you people are interested to to do that and so I've also been thinking like what what should i frame it during Peterson or frame it meaning crisis for I don't I'm not sure like I'm so I'm trying to think of it but that probably starts doing something in French and at least in the fall because it is a bit it's a bit it III have so many prejudices about Quebec about where I live it's a horrible like you know I really have this this idea like I tour what I'm gonna say is really horrible but I really have this sounds like it's totally lost it's finished you know it's all over here and you know I so what's the point you know what's the point in in even talking to two people around me which is so stupid it really is an emotional like a very emotional irrational thing that I that I develop so I have to I have to kind of reconcile myself and it's interesting because this village where I'm staying I mean we've stayed here because we had friends who had were selling a house people we knew were selling their house and we ended up being able to get the house for a while and now I'm discovering that this village has this massive historical cultural importance it's almost been forgotten by the French Canadians there's right next door to my house is one of the most famous singers in Quebec who's a who's like a very elderly man but he was really you know important part of the developing kind of Quebec culture and down the street there's a house of another poet fit exactly who is extremely known and and so now I'm learning that all these poets and artists lived around this village and so I don't know it's connecting me I don't know how it's rash it's irrational but it's kind of connecting me a little bit to my roots and giving me more desire to do some things in French and to talk to talk to French francophone people I it's the Providence of God it's how you know I tell people you know people Americans like to imagine that God is somehow this you know that CS Lewis said this benevolent grandfather it's like oh no God God when he wants to do something he can play rough and he can he can he can flood your house he can you know it I'm I'm curious how much of this crisis that that Jordan sort of I mean the man in the moment kind of found each other how much of this is really tied to the english-speaking world and so for then the french-speaking world how will this be different I'm really curious I'm really curious too because for sure there's something very english-speaking about Jordan this whole intellectual dark web thing this whole enlightenment David Hume thinking it's just not it's just very English that this this idea of the individual the way that Jordan frames individual it's very very English and so I'm I am also curious to see how it's going to at least I don't know how this question is going to be asked in the in French circle for sure the people that have been coming to me now just recently I've had people kind of coming to me and now maybe I might even be going to France and doing some things in Europe it's been mostly the symbolism part that they've been interested in and kind of recovering a coherent worldview and recovering a a kind of symbolic approach to life so that's been but the jordan peterson stuff that i don't I didn't I haven't met a lot of French speaking people who have been interested in it so I don't know if it doesn't totally connect there's something about it I don't know yeah strange there there have been a fair number of Dutchman I've you know when when when Jordan went to the Netherlands he had a fairly good-sized audience but the Netherlands I mean there's such a small country and their English is so good that they they seem to tend to follow the you know the English culture quite a bit yeah I've had a lot of sweet Swedes write me a lot of people in Sweden and so if seems like yeah in the northern parts for sure Jordan is having an impact so I don't know yeah I mean it's funny get in his 12 rules for life he just didn't he didn't come to Montreal and I think I think CAA did their homework like the CA probably did their homework and they realized that it just wasn't the place like they would he wouldn't be able to draw the type of crowd that he can draw in Toronto and in other Canadian cities that's what I think maybe not I hope it's not secret French hostilities I know Montreal and I know Quebec and the rest of Canada have a very special some disagreements yeah but he lived for a while in Montreal McGill is his and this is that's where he it's his alma mater that's what he did is his first degree so though he's he's attached to Montreal so I was surprised at why he didn't he didn't come to do the 12 rules for Lightfoot I'll have to ask him one day so so where do you think this this meaning crisis conversation is going Jonathan I really I'm excited to see I'm definitely excited to see and it's really pushing me also to talk about things frame them differently and I'm realizing that's really interesting and I think it's the same for you where certain questions that are perennial that you've been asking or that you've been talking about but all of a sudden because there's this discussion you get the people of rebel wisdom and you have John reveille key and then you have other people talking about the the more spiritual part of it you could say or the deeper questions you have people like Ben Shapiro who and Jordan we're having these discussions as well so I think that it's it's forcing us to reframe the the way we're talking about it so that we can come to actually discuss and so you know I always tell people even the word consciousness that's not the Church Fathers don't use the word consciousness but I think it's a perfectly appropriate word to use because we all know what it means when you use the word soul no one knows what that word means anymore it's it's everyone you know and so I think that that to me that consciousness question is going to be the one I think that's going to be the most interesting to kind of get to and the the the problem of consciousness the of how the relationship between consciousness and existing within a narrative I think that's that that's the key that's the that's the key that's going to to unlock a lot of problems and and I hope that that's what you know and that's the thing that John Verve a key and I kind of we asked her a little disagreement I mean it's not a disagreement it's just we know that we're on two sides of that question um and hopefully we'll have some some chances to talk about it there's a there's a group in Ontario that want to invite both of us to do like a public a public thing and so I think that that'll be that'll be interesting and also to talk about to present to me it's also been about rediscovering some aspects of the Christian faith that have been forgotten or lost you know that's why I have chosen certain writers or certain Saints that to talk about in order to bring out the more cosmic aspect the more the aspect which is related to transformation to mystical experience something akin to consciousness although we like I said they don't use that word I think that that that's the that's the key to you know the Saint Ephrem st. Maximus and Gregory of Nyssa there's some writers that have really that really give us a perspective on these questions that we're having today and they've been they've been a little bit sidelined because people had other issues too other issues that were concerning them but now it seems like it's right in there you know it's right in the in the fray so I you know I I had a so much I find so much fruitful so many fruitful questions come from interactions with quote-unquote regular people I had a woman in my Sunday School class asked me Sunday she said I just I just heard a preacher that said you know forgiving yourself is not in the Bible and because that's a big mantra right now and a lot of evangelical oh you got to forgive yourself you got to forgive yourself and I thought about it I thought no he's right you don't find that in the Bible and then I thought part of the reason you don't find it in the Bible is that the these subtle relationships we have with consciousness with how we imagined the self I mean some of these things have continued to change and and and we we don't notice the changes until you know something comes up and it's like well look at this oh and I I think you're right you know that the the focus on consciousness might be a substitute for the meet-up title for a Jordan Peterson thing although that will bring that will bring fascinating other interested parties into the conversation as you well know a lot more psychedelic like who thought we would be having conversations about psychedelics I mean we do you imagine like three years ago that you would be talking to people and that's what you would be talking about to me that was not part of was not on my radar at all oh that totally took me and and it was as so many of the people I was talking to had been in that realm and it's like how did I get here and then when we started talking about it the biggest surprise that I've had was meeting people in my church who said oh yeah I converted after a psychedelic experience I'm like what I didn't know I had no idea that I had never heard that before well they're not gonna cough that up and don't they're not gonna say this like just straight up so oh it's true so I you know I I agree I've been so yeah this this whole thing has taken such interesting turns and I think it will continue to take interesting turns I think a piece of it is that what a lot of people new at towards the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that that materialism is pretty much played out that's these things take a long time to kind of filter through a a culture and I think we're we're getting to that point now that more and more people will look at someone like like Sam Harris and the the kinds of ideas he's promoting and just say it's that and I you know and it's interesting because we had a last you know this the new atheist wave was like this last care resurgence of that movement you know they it was a lot shallower than you know someone like me chairs or the hardcore you know these kind of philosophical 80s that you find in the end of 19th century so you have this kind of care control moment where everybody is somewhat seduced by it you know all these people they went all the way you know all the way into that I spent at least Harris talks about consciousness and it's talking about a little bit about first-person experience but people like Dokken for example completely oblivious to any of that is it ignores completely the fact that he's a person in space who has an experience he does that's not even it's not it's like no it's like he's abstracted himself from the world and thinks that he's looking at it you through this objective scientific lens and so I think that as that caricature comes to it reached now its end then it's an opportunity like it ends up being a great opportunity because suddenly and you see it I'm sure you've seen it too you you see people you see it in their eyes that they've understood that secret it's it's almost like a magic thing that was just veiled in front of them they couldn't see it they just couldn't understand what was significant about that and then all of a sudden it's like oh yeah wait a minute what do I do with consciousness like if I even if I ask even if I try to encompass it back into the scientific system then it whoa then it creates very strange things because it's like okay so I'm you know how does it it can't just be this thing atop that we ignore pretend that it's just we take it for granted all of a sudden it has to to to be dealt with and so it's that's been the most that's been to me the most fascinating thing is to watch people understand that and so there's like okay now you have that you've had that glimpse you've had that awakening moment okay now let's take you what's step by step I'm gonna take you step by step and show you what that means you know what it means in terms of what a story is what it means in terms of of you know what a frame of for reality is what it means in terms of necessary necessary of hierarchy all these things are gonna come back in yeah and then I'm going to show you in the Christian story why things are the way they are like why is it that we talk about things the way we do you know because that's that's the normal world right the normal world was this is the world in which the first thing that you that you encounter is this conscious experience of being and the and then on top of that you can add you know the rationalization you can add this this analytic mode it's fine but in the frats not the first it's it's never the first thing I think it will be interesting to see I think there's a crisis in Protestantism that and you see this in in some ways in the renewed interest to the more sacramental liturgical traditions you know the one of the things that I obviously can't miss is how many people coming out of the Jordan Peterson conversation are very interested in in orthodoxy and I think orthodoxy partly in America because it's unlike their vast experience with Protestants unlike some of the some of the corruption and and chaos that has been in the news in the Roman Catholic Church orthodoxy is sort of the new kid on the block at least in this continent they don't have their hands dirty they haven't had any big scandals only bad skin you know though we've had scandals for sure yeah but they're not known but I think I think yeah there's a little bit of the I always kind of joke around and think that there is in orthodoxy enough of the foreignness because the the the the foreignness is dangerous and but it's also an opportunity right it's dangerous because it can kind of it can it you can project into it and know and you see people do it I see it a lot of people do with Buddhism you know it's like they just project whatever they want and do Buddhism it it's like it's everything that I want it to be just because you don't know about it you don't really know what it is you know it's like actually look at tantric Tibetan Buddhism and you might be surprised and what you find but anyways and and so I think that orthodoxy has enough of the foreign to to to attract the attention to kind of titillate and you know kind of surprised because we were other things are banal you know but it's Christian you know it's not it's not it can connect you back to your origin also through that fascination and through that kind of surprise it hopefully can connect you back to to the Western story too you know so so I that's what I've I get that sense a little bit so I don't know tell me a bit more about how you you you've seen it well I see this as a crisis so I've been reading more in the referent about the Reformation lately and paying particular attention to these these terms of consciousness and so you know what happened a lot with Luther is this the sacramental system that medieval Roman Catholicism had you know continued to work there was so much corruption that on one hand you know that was that was clearly a complaint against the church all the corruption that was happening which which the church which Protestantism forced the church to have to address but then also with Luther there was this change in terms of the relationship between faith and consciousness that that faith became very much of a psychological reality much more than a a an embedded reality in terms of materiality and I mean you see this with all of the different changes that happens with Protestantism you know the really and an individualism comes into play in Protestantism and this these things happen slowly because people don't just you know change overnight with this and Luther who's at the center of it I mean the the chaos he unleashes surprises him because karlstad who was right there with him you know goes off into the radical and it's basically spawns the radical Reformation and so so chaos ensues but you know one of the things that I see now I was having a conversation with with other people in the Christian Reformed Church because obviously the same sex marriage debates are are just running through Protestant denominations and and they're having to wrestle with it but one of the things I noted to a actually a Canadian scholar in the Christian forum Church is is that in some ways this when Protestants when Protestants basically say you know using the Bible the Bible as such is supposed to resolve any any question that comes to the church and what has happened with the questions about women's ordination the questions about same-sex marriage is that Protestants are basically the they they've they've they've given up looking to the Bible to resolve these questions now however people feel about these questions in the Bible I'm gonna push that aside what's what's interesting to note is that the protestant vision was that here with the Bible we can answer any question and Protestants are giving up on that and so then you have to ask well what if Protestantism and and they're kind of in this point where they it doesn't seem they can go back to Catholicism and so okay if the Bible can't resolve this with respect to the community where do we go and so I think I think we see a a continued crisis within Protestantism and and I think he I mean if if in the Reformation we saw a turning from an embedded sacramental vision of of a universe made whole that the sacramental system was supposed to embody into a much more psychological phase just like we're seeing the end of materialism we're seeing the end of that merely psychological for Protestantism and so in this new phase which I think is going to attempt to reimburse nough sand materiality in one coherent picture that's you know prior Protestantism has been a fan effect of this this division and what do Protestants do and I think that's that's a completely on answerable question at this point right yeah what's the what's the solution and I think that the I mean it's interesting because in terms of the Bible I've been thinking about this for quite a while because when I was young I I was in a very conservative you know Protestant denomination I was a kind of conservative Baptist and and it was all the Bible like you said it was like the Bible the by midnight and I had no notion of liberal Protestants like I had no idea like I never but then when I finally discovered this whole you know piss Kop alien kind of direction I realized so Protestants both let's say affirm the Bible you know as the Word of God that kind of language and then they're also the ones who destroyed the Bible they they did both and and there's something about there's something about doing one which leads to the other I think you know I I was having the discussion with a even with the Protestant Reformed pastor a while ago where he kept saying the Word of God the Word of God and I was like the Word of God is Christ and I was like I tried to get rid of to get back to that and is like because if the Word of God is or at least if you if you had this idea that when you say Word of God in terms of the Bible you it's somehow equivalent to when you're saying the Lord divine logos like in that sense then that's going to break apart because it the Bible itself is a it's a garment it's a garment of skin it's a it's a it's a it's a it's an outer covering and and so because of it it it's a material thing like a it's a it's a series of words and letters and phrases and it's because of it it it can be broken apart it has to be held by something above it it has to be held by the Holy Spirit you know it has to be held by the the unity of of the church it has to be held by the unity of the faithful in the Spirit of God or else it's going to start to fragment it it's going to start to be poked at you know and even in the very desire to prove its validity in a kind of materialist way that you're going to destroy it and that it seems like that's what happened where all these scholars and scientists who wanted to prove that the Bible was this and that and this started to scratch added the details of it finding these little loopholes and holes and oh this text isn't like this this this this old manuscript isn't like this one and oh there's differences between the manuscripts and oh wait a minute and you know this whole section we don't have in this manuscript of a sudden it's like oh and finally you end up with the Bible that has all these little different colors you know like little paraphrases and little notes like this text is not in so many manuscripts ourselves like that's not a Bible that's a at least don't use those Bibles in your church because that'll destroy your church have a Bible that has all these these notes in them anyways so it's an interesting and I think that I think that ultimately it's not like it's not the sacramental system right it's not the sacramental system it's more seeing the the unity of the church and the Holy Spirit as being the first the first place where God encounters the person right is the Pentecost is Pentecost comes before the Bible right Pentecost precedes the Bible and we tend to see it in terms of systems like in terms of bishops and whatever and satin like you said like different sacraments but the at least in the Orthodox tradition we tend to talk about sacramentality in general you know not so much not that the sacraments are important of course they're important but there's a there's a kind of a joke that people talk about where when the the eastern fathers encountered the Latins for the council of florence you know in the I think it's in the 1400s the the Catholics asked the Orthodox how many sacraments there are in the Orthodox were like what do you mean how many sacraments there's like there's seven sacraments they're like what do you mean is seven didn't understand the question it was like sacramentality is just a whole process of how we exist in the world and how our existence in the Holy Spirit transforms reality and how it transforms things and so it's as much the prayers it's as much the you know like we it's it's the objects in terms of the icons and the prayer and the church and all that but then it's also the manner in which we live together like that we we exist together as a as a communion of saints so it's it's a bigger thing you know it's like it's a bigger thing than the system of sacramentality I don't that makes sense oh that makes perfect sense yeah well and Protestants have always had this propensity to to to divine eyes the scriptures and kind of you know so you have the Father Son and Holy Scriptures as your Trinity instead of this is what I mean this is what's happened in Protestantism again and again and and I think part of it was in in the West in a sense so quite clearly in the Reformation scripture replaces the seven sacraments and and the Bible itself becomes the only sacrament and you see that in the in in both what happens to baptism which right away you have a big fight over baptism because the the understanding of what baptism is and how it functions divides in the Protestant church and and then with the Eucharist like in a similar way it splits and so you have Calvin with his with his real presence who's trying to maintain some sense of of sacrament and you have the the aunt the you know Zwingli in tradition that's as well it's a it's sort of a symbol it's a sign but it's nothing nothing really happens and and so again you see that it's it's just bound up with these deep assumptions that that theological language attempts to express and philosophical language attempts to explain but then the way the Bible then gets handled one of the things that that I noted when I was when I was in seminary even in the eighties was that for a long time in the West the church wanted to make theology a science okay a science in the new sense of the term science now yeah yeah not ciencia right a science and then the Bible then was just like for a a chemist chemicals would be the thing that the chemist works on or a theologian the Bible is the thing that we take apart and and all of this had its you know a lot of it had its beginnings in Erasmus when Erasmus of Rotterdam comes and looks at looks at the Vulgate looks at Jerome's Vulgate and begins to some you know more and more Greek texts are around and so he begins to look at so well why is this an and there's this whole movement that's saying no the Holy Spirit inspired jerome to write the Vulgate as such and and see right there you have the beginning of this of this thing people I remember being people tell me that the King James Version is inspired like they'd inspired by God oh that's exactly right and so you see this happen again and again in the West they were approaching the Bible now I think what's going to be interesting is you know so when John and ver Vicki and I spoke we had a conversation last week you know what so when I listen so so it was very interesting listening to Sevilla because she she's talking about for Vicki and you and I'm kind of watching this and saying wow she's seeing some things and she's seen some things and between the two of you and and I this question of return mm-hmm and and I you know when I think about what's next I I don't see I don't know where product Protestants have in some ways ever since the Reformation been to work off your current situation they they've in a sense been homeless in some ways and so they've been kept trying to establish homes hmm and and they're gonna build their own homes and typical Protestant fashions we ever nobody else got this right except us at our little group so I I don't know what it I don't know what this what the new what this new turning that we're seeing now will mean for Protestants if you know clearly many are going going back to you know but but in some senses they don't have one I had one colleague say to me you know if if if the east and Rome ever make up I'm in yet II and so in a sense the Great Schism then comes into play in that I don't know if I can go back to Rome or the east because they can't get their act together yeah that for sure that is definitely I don't see it I to be honest in the eschaton but I want to come back to the sacramentality question I my question to you is let's say now with this this this kind of new perspective on consciousness and on patterns let's say on on patterning and how the the innovate innovate how it's inevitable that there's patterning in our human engagement patterning in the way we frame the frame since the world frame our narratives all that you know if I would say something like in that there's a hint of sacramentality in a handshake could you see that that that that could then be in a hierarchy of sacramentality which would lead to to communion which would lead to the the Eucharist as let's say the the anchor of the world something like that or the anchor of the church but then that also then filters down in and it helps us also then to understand how we are constantly engaging in in symbolic in the sense of condensing right in symbolic actions between amongst each other but then also when we frame our own story our own narrative were acting in this kind of symbolic way and all of that has a ultimately sacramental process you know we were talking about this is something that someone asked me in a Q&A once at a at an event actually and I it really struck me when I when it when they said it because it just I knew it but it's one of those things where it was formatted in the right way when they said if you do like Christ says which is if you see the good in the other and you you always looking for the good and the other and you're always looking for Christ in the person in front of you won't that then transform reality for you won't that actually make it will if you if you participate in that and you let yourself go and you actually don't look at people's faults those faults in a certain manner will will be diminished they'll be lower in the hierarchy of attention you could say and and in the end the hierarchy of attention as you're engaging with others the world will actually become more glorious it will become it will fill up with light and you see that because you see people who everything they look at they always look at the negative they they they always see the negative thing no matter what it is because it's always there it's inevitably there it just depends on how you structure it in that that kind of hierarchy of attention so so to me that that it explaining of that way to me is it is a way to say this is what sacramentality is about it's about that but then it it doesn't it also does include baptism marriage all these gestures that we pose because they're the most condensed version and if you take baptism for example it's like if that's the story this is it this is the go down to the into the water go down and get you know get the spark you you go down to the water you leave your garment you're dead garments and you come out you know vested in in Christ and so it's like that's that's it doing that actually is a transformative thing it's not it's not just a it's not some whoohoo magic it's like it actually that's how the world works you know through those types of gestures it's just this one is so condensed and symbolic but every time you you like I said like every time you shake someone's hand or you say hello or you do that you're you're participating the same process right right and actually the conversation I had with with Ben Benjamin Boyce yesterday very much touched on he has the recording so I don't know what will come out of it but we this is exactly where we went because he you know he's he's he's working on his own journey and so he picks at you and me and Verve a key at that end of it as opposed to the the two other themes that he works on in his channel and you know he asked well you know where where can we so so when I listen to people like Benjamin and many many other people I talked to its they always focus on wealth where can I find this experience and and what they're what they're sort of saying is that they're imagining that this experience is going to be something akin to again a psychedelic trip and that and that somehow in this special in this special experience that somehow where I will meet God and so I I post I gave him the Isaiah passage where the I say is in the temple and the Seraphim are there and they they cry out holy holy holy is the Lord God Almighty the whole earth is full of his glory and I thought I said you you will you know you will you will encounter God you know you walk into Yosemite Valley and everyone's like well there's his glory and I said you know even after a meet up we finished our two hours and then we take our little picture and I do that to kind of break the group out of the table and then they all break down and I stand in the church and I watch clusters of two three or four people having clearly meaningful conversation I say well I see his glory there and and in fact this I think I love the way you phrased it because it is sacramentality we see we see him all over the place and it's in a handshake it's in the child it's it's in my encounters with with the homeless it's it's not a separate you know here I'm going to go into a trance or take a psychedelic drug and oh in this special little place that's where I see God because he's not everywhere else no he is no and this is where I get you know you mentioned we should talk about God 1 and God to God one is the whole earth is full of his glory there's you you you keep bumping into him not just when you're you know when chemicals are rushing illuminating your brain and you're in some ecstatic state you bump into him with the embrace of your wife with you know and even that I'm elevating it too far with sitting down for a for a meal and you know all throughout and and so this is this is part of what I think is I think this is a function of the question of consciousness and materiality mm-hmm and and that we have taken we have said well spirituality is this unique set of things over here and no not just when you're on a psychedelic or not just when you're in a service and sort of flushed with the majesty and the beauty or if you're Pentecostal when the Holy Spirit descends on you not just those places but but that then but that then triggers people in terms of the pantheist conversation because when they hear that then they say well God is everything and no not that's not it either yeah and and well well why can't you just tell me I don't know idea that the earth is full of his glory I think that that's that's it like that's the way to see it that that the glory of God fills up holds is the secret behind everything you know it's the thing that's hidden in the world and and if you with the right eye you can encounter it you know and and I think that there are you know if you read the there is the possibility of a deeper transformation you see it I mean three the lives of the saints you do have this idea of a a kind of illumination that they are transformed that their life is transformed that they participate in God's nature that it is a kind of ecstasy a kind of ache a you know a kind of rapture but that doesn't just come to you like it's not it's not an experience that you go somewhere to get it's something that you that you encounter through a life of a prayer of of contrition of you know of confession of all these these you know and of loving your neighbor and and and doing living in the life of God then you you approach those those moments if something like that is just given to you I think that it you know there's something counterfeit about it there's something dangerously counterfeit about it and and you know the church fathers and modern fathers they warned us about kind of pseudo spirituality you know this the simplistic experiential spirituality that you can that you you just have these experiences and and you know if an experience doesn't transform you doesn't make you love your neighbor more it's pretty useless I mean it might be fun you know but it's not it's not that's not the point right it's the there's something it's supposed to transform you yeah well and I think you know what happens with a saint is if a Protestant may use that word the point of Protestantism in territory right but the point of product Protestantism is that we all sainthood is not for a special class of people over there sainthood is is God's desire for all of us yeah and when and I'm sure you've had this experience too when when you meet someone who has in at least in your estimation and in your experience achieved a degree of sainthood you begin to notice that for them the world is much more the world is very alive and the world is very alive with God and it isn't just in with these separate experiences I think actually the D drive to locate God only with certain kinds of elevated experiences or flow States or ever we might want to say it is is part of this instrumentality that I think is at the heart of the meaning crisis yeah Owen Owen Barfield who is a very interesting guy in wrote about this quite a bit in the middle of the twentieth century and one of the points that he made was the the degree to which we explain is exactly the degree to which we lose meaning and and I think what's what's the key thing in that is in a sense our instrumentality because the desire that we have for mastery of nature is directly related to the our our ego if we if that's the right term or our consciousnesses desire to I I think live idolatrous Li which means that we are going to turn the entire world into our slave yeah so that we can secure for ourselves the outcomes the experiences the the patterns we wish yeah instead of actually receiving the patterns the gods patterns it's the heart of the rebellion in the garden yeah for sure yeah and and I think that that's you know the whole self-help culture all of that stuff is exactly what you're saying and and a lot of modern this kind of California Buddhism is that as well there's a it looks like I'm going to I'm going to to to meditate I'm going to do these these these different things it's like it's just like a technique I'm gonna do it so that you know so that I have I have more energy I have you know I feel better I am a happier whatever and so so there is this this kind of instrumentality like you said and and I think that that's maybe you know that's interesting because that is something that I think when you talk about the problem with the meaning crisis and it was interesting because I I kept seeing that that's what Bishop Baron was trying to talk to Jordan Peterson about majority this wasn't it just wasn't on his horizon he kept trying to bring it back to worship he was saying it's worship that's the key key is its what do you celebrate that's how it starts it's it's like what are the things that we celebrate and that comes way before all the other questions of like you said this this idea of I'm going to to use this technique of this technique to achieve this goal in my life or whatever the first question is what we celebrate and that's something that that I thought that the fact that he kept wanting to bring you back is like it's about worship it's about worship it's so hard for people to understand that the the attitude of grab the attitude of gratitude and the attitude of of celebration of worship that's the first ground to to reality and that's the only way that you don't make God an instrument you don't make God into something that you're going to use to get what you want is is true worship and and true you know like you recognize your place like know where you are and and and elevate celebrate that which is is the on you I think the difficulty that Jordan and almost everyone I talked to has when we when we try to lay this out as we usually do what people hear is okay well this means that it's if you're if you're orientation is instrumental all you see our tools hmm and this is deep in what Jordan I think articulates very well in that that which is in us we are looking out at the world with a perspective and that perspective shapes the world that we see and so if we if we see ourselves as consumers if we see ourselves as masters of the world everything everything we see is a tool and and then when you come to someone and say well write worship what they hear is the church as a tool by which I can find meaning in my life find happiness in my life and so they go to church as a tool and thinking about the church as a tool now the church is going to provide these kinds of things for me and then they go into church with that attitude and well it doesn't work because it doesn't work exactly and and that's exactly so if you talk to people who have you know given up on the whole thing well they they will tell you again and again it didn't work right whereas when listen to you and Bishop Baron and how I know you to be you don't go to church because well I've you know gosh you know my house just got flooded maybe you know maybe I wasn't praying hard enough to keep the flood water as a par and so now I'm going to go to church to to to give you know to get my blessing yeah and and in in a sense because of this consumer and it's way even before the consumer this instrumental approach because it's the heart of idolatry that they can't help but turn church into an idol whereas it in a sense you don't go to you you certainly go to worship to have yourself reorient ed my god yeah I'm gonna say right you don't go to church in order to well shoot I better go to church because my wife needs straightening out and my kids need this and I need more money I mean you don't do that I'm sure I do sometimes there's some times where it's like a yeah because the thing is the the thing that happens is that the lower aspects that you mentioned this idea of finding some kind of stability finding some kind of relief even in terms of in terms of confession or or you know finding legitimacy or finding there's all these things that actually you do end up getting but like you said it's that but you you'll only get them if you don't if you don't look for them if you don't look like that and and that's true about so many things in life right it is true about about about so many things like it it's like if you if you go into a friendship only thinking about what it's going to give you then you're going to get a lot less out of that friendship then if you go into a friendship with a kind of open desire to connect with someone into to to you know to have a communion with a human person then the gratitude that say them the lower aspects are going surely gonna get way more you know and Christ you know Christ always says that all the time he's like it don't worry about the things of this world don't if you don't if you if you focus on God if you celebrate that if you celebrate God if you live in the kingdom of God then you'll get those things don't worry they'll be there like that's not the point that's not the point of life well and and I think what happens in the Enlightenment is we're so impressed with our success being intentional scientific consumers that we have able we have been able to achieve electricity levees flood insurance air conditioning we have been so impressed by this but Jesus says if you gain the whole world but lose your psyche I mean I think what Jesus is saying right there is basically he's saying here's the meaning crisis for you you've made an exchange yeah exactly you are living comfortable consumer lives with air conditioning and all of these things but you've lost your soul yeah and it's fascinating to hear people wonder and you hear people it's like how is it why is it that we have all these great material things but our society you know the social fabric is eroding I don't understand it's like wait a minute didn't Jesus tell you like didn't I mean hasn't it just been one of the presuppositions about the basis of Western civilization that if we focus ourselves on those you know those smaller things then then we'll lose the higher one you know it's like you you have to orient yourself properly well and I think for for both of us we had experiences earlier in our life of going and living with very poor in very poor communities and one of the things that would happen is North Americans would come to the Dominican Republic and they would meet the Haitians and the Dominicans sort of like you know touring going on Safari with you know we're gonna experience some Haitians and and one of the things that the Americans comes through and say they're so happy now first of all they you know they're polite and they're hospitable so they're not gonna oh here's a stranger level and let me tell you about all the troubles I have in life now they're they're they're people with social skills they don't do that but I think that experience that north and wealthy North Americans have of oh they're so happy is I how can a person be happy living in desperate poverty in you know with with none of the material success comfort or security that we prioritize so highly how can they live without that and actually live normal human lives yeah no I agree I agree I I wanted to look as we wanted to talk about God one God to so I want to try to get to that before okay where we got to run out of run out of run out of breath so uh maybe because I think that maybe I'm over interpreting your god one in God too because to me like the way that I I see it is that they're the same like to me they're dead and I think you think they're the same - um and and but I think that maybe to me I don't see them as being opposed or as being as being distinct to me one flows out of the other in the sense that that would you talk about God number two flows out of God number one that's right and you could you could say something like the the manner in which the infinite encounters the particular right is going to the Saracen assistant will necessarily look like will it will be will there is no other way for the infinite to encounter the particular and and so that's going to and it's going to be adjusted it's going to be an answer to of specific it's not going to just be the infinite right it's going to be an encounter and therefore it's going to be an answer to a prayer it's going to be a a it's going to be something which seems to shift things in a way that that you might not understand it's going to be something that's going to open up things provide opportunities good all of that is going to happen it's going to be it's going to look like will because that's the like I said it's it's only because we think we don't consider the idea of being or consciousness we don't consider we think that it's not that it's not part of somehow not part of the universe that we that it's or it's some it's some epic phenomena despite the fact that it's by that that we actually understand everything um but as soon as consciousness comes back in you could say it's the same about even you right that you have you have a your person is somehow your soul your spirit or whatever you don't totally have access to it it's actually something which is which is higher than your usual conscious self that is something that is that is kind of above there and then that will come down and express itself in specific will specific specific desires and sometimes those can be can be not in communion with each other right they can they can actually be in conflict with each other because you're not United but if you can imagine an infinite and the infinite God then those wouldn't be in in in conflicts they would actually be United and that would be God's will and it would be God answering prayer and be all that all of that to me just it just makes sense it could be it could even be miracles it can be all this stuff that that we talk about God number two God acting in history to me flows out of of the God number one then you talk about I don't know I don't know if that's something it's the way you think about it or that makes sense to you I agree with everything you just said okay and I came I came up with this because I was watching I probably watched that thing 20 times that the exchange between peterson and sam harris in the first vancouver debate because the the night is wearing on and they haven't really gotten to the god question in Sam's mind hmm Jordans been talking about it the whole time Jordan Jordan knows what he's doing in that conversation he he's putting together an argument and he keeps trying to build something and Sammis sort of keeps kicking it over with all of the usual tropes that sam brings to these debates yeah and so they get to the end of it and they're like well we haven't talked about God and I'm thinking you've been talking about God the whole time and so Sam says to Jordan tell me what you mean by God and Jordan sits down and begins to talk to lay out all the ways in which this this impersonal filter and the assumptions that we have which are necessary to function psychologically to to break down a a world which is far too large for our little brains to hold together and the ramifications of that for daily life so Peterson has this he sits down with this computer he opens it up says I'm gonna read these because they're they're they're so complicated and he starts reading through them and Sam then interrupts them and says no no no no no that's not God and and no that's that's not what God means and I'm thinking well Sam doesn't know any history and he doesn't know any theology and he doesn't have any understanding of holy holy holy and the whole world is full of his glory so what and and that I think is helpful because so in the West and Bishop Baron and Peterson talked about this - that God sort of gets fragmented and especially in the Protestant Reformation and kind of blows apart and and part of this blowing apart I was trying to articulate with God number one and God number two in Christianity there obviously together now you actually see towards the end of that conversation that Peterson goes to God number two when he has is sitting at the edge of the his bed and going you know asking this moment of repentance that he lays out for Sam Harris but but this is in a sense well what happens in the West is the when God number one and God number two kind of get pulled apart and this happens in providential deism where where we say well nature is and and even when we use this word nature mm-hmm um nature is this thing that's separated from God and and there are that this gets so complicated the word nature it's completely flipped around use the word nature today as is the opposite of the way that it was used you know it traditionally it's hilariously and so nature so that's another thing I became paying attention to every time someone says nature I think what do they mean by that word yeah and and what they mean by that word is something without consciousness or intentionality something mechanistic yeah yeah there you go that has that is what nature someone dies of natural causes as opposed to a murder you know conscious agent willfully interfered with what we imagined to be a mechanistic playing out of the world where there is and only when you have that kind of view then suddenly you can split God up and send him away but what Jordan in a sense does with his God number one is he says okay let's give Darwin his due and say we don't need a god to make the world but in a sense what Jordan is saying and I think in a deep way is you can't have psychology without God well what kind of God well this this God number one but you're exactly right in that once you and I think this is why we see people who and it's not conscious for them but people are listening to Jordan and Jordan is smuggling God in to the conversation and that is leading people to God number two hmm because yeah I remember that moment in the sent one of the SEM Ayres talks where Jordan mentions this idea that if you ask you know if you ask something you'll get an answer and sam says yeah I've done that it works and it's like but that's not God it's like what what where am I like what world where am I like you asked and there's an answer and therefore there's a there's a will there's a there's a there's a something presents itself to you as a formed response you participate in that just like you participate in in in your relationship you know with the infinite obviously it's going to manifest itself in a way that is appropriate to your to your frame that's though that's the whole idea and so I was like I just thought that was the strangest moment when he said basically it's like Sammy is saying that he prays and he gets answers but he doesn't like God it's like okay let's just find another word if that's all that's Bob it's just the word that's bothering you let's just get rid of the word maybe but that is the heart of our rebellion yeah that is that is that that is in a sense Adam and Eve saying the Satan suggests well God doesn't have your best interest at heart what that saying is God isn't love and doesn't love you and therefore you know when I when I listen to people and I think what really is at heart of the motivation to banish God from the world even the psalmist no ancient person would say there is no God because that was just silly what they say is God is absent doesn't see doesn't care won't hold me accountable that's what the fool says the fool the psalmist says says in in his heart and and so though what I find when I listen to and this this even comes to the the complaint about Calvinism which I hear often because I you know say I'm a galvan which is what gives God the right to make decisions about me and I hear that and I think it's it's just nuts because tell me tell me how you are the house most of you is the product of your choices it's it's so naive yeah you didn't choose when you were born to whom you were born you didn't choose the genetic makeup you have you didn't most of your life if you don't choose but to say well God somehow thinks he has the right to make decisions about my life it's like well you know that's because you think that God is a guy that's like you you know what is that horrible song like that God's coming back home on the bus or something like these horrible ideas about about God as just as a and it really comes with this whole is this whole weird multi-dimensional idea you know this whole idea this horrible idea Alex Jones types idea where this idea that that the spiritual world is like another world like it's like another dimension and and God is like in another dimension it's like as if God is a being and people have lost the whole idea of principality the whole idea of hierarchies of beings it's all gone it's all on it's all level you know and so they don't they don't imagine angels as as as principalities they imagine angels as just beings that are there in space but you can't see them and you know maybe you could see them and then they could take a chat with you it's like that drives me insane and so I think that when I hear people talk about God that way I keep thinking I keep getting angry because it's exactly it's like you're taking the lowest version of God that like you know the most uneducated person believes in and you're you're arguing against that it's like I don't know it I don't know who you're arguing against I mean at least it's not me at least it's not any of the Church Fathers or any of the of the classical theists it's Jerry Falwell I mean I'm horrible I didn't say that anyway some you know some just like kind of anyways well but but so some when I was talking to Benjamin Boyce yesterday I was saying if you look at the Ten Commandments and you look at the commandment God gives which when you this commandment alone should make people stop and say there's something special about the Bible and this whole thing you know Judaism that leads to Christianity because when God commands you may not make an image of me from anything that I have created what what that commandment says is you cannot reduce me to anything that you can represent with your mind now this puts us in a problem because in order to relate to God we need representations and Jesus comes along and says father and and I thought in with Nathan Jacobs had a conversation with Hank Hannah Graf I thought Nathan Jacobs laid that out well in terms of how the father's talked about father son and and that relationality in other words we need representations in order to relate and so Jesus gives us one hears father but but every such representation comes with its comes with its vulnerabilities and liabilities but but right at the beginning God says do not represent me with a calf with a big statue of a man with with any graven image because once you do that you setup exactly what you just described and exactly what we've done and so what happens when in a sense God number one gets banished by Darwin what what Christians begin to do because oh gosh you know there was way too much sunk cost in Christianity God number two this relational what if God were one of us this this relational imagination this relational representation gets expanded to fill the void and you see this in a books let's say like Chuck Colson's born again where here's a guy all his life going to be Episcopal Church comes home after meeting with a born-again evangelical and says I'm a Christian and his wife says but we've been going to this Episcopal Church forever I mean what was that about no I know Jesus I have a personal relation and so it's in a sense God number two expands to make up for the God number one that Nietzsche declares has been killed and so you know obviously I don't believe that there is this division in God but in terms of our represent representations of God this is I think is something that has happened in the West and this helps us understand why Jordan Peterson lays this stuff out sam harris says oh no that's not God who would complain about you know masturbation or what you do with your body and then they go into this this interesting conversation where Jordan basically says and and I'm thinking about doing a video on this week Jordan acts as if God number two is real and the reason be and I think you laid out exactly why that can't be helped it is the only way we can actually give God right praise mm-hmm so I that's that's for me you know why God number the language of God number one and God number two I think was helpful for explaining some of what has been happening you know where where these discussions aren't connecting like right where they're not and I think you're right and I totally agree and I think that you know because of the because of people like Sam Harris and the preponderance of that's an evangelical discourse in in North America I think that you know way that's probably why also then I've talked more about your like the transcend that you know they're they're the infinite aspect of God and this is this kind of you know this idea that it's like the earth is full of his glory that type of representation but I also think it's it's absolutely inevitable that that will then become will like it will become a will and will become all these things that that you kind of associate with with with God number two you know this idea that God can reveal something to you that you can that you can have you know that that God can help you do can redirect you that God can all this stuff is to me is just is an inevitable consequence of of God number one but also inevitable consequence of re understanding the world through consciousness we understanding the world through you know the supremacy of of consciousness like the fact that you the filter all of that is is is inevitable you know sorry and and this is exactly what we've seen happening and this is exactly why the celebrity atheists are completely wrong about what happens when people give up their organized religion and and I always use this commercial that was on a few years ago from I call her Verizon Lisa because this is Verizon commercial where this woman walks in front of a Verizon store and and the universe told me Lisa you need a new smartphone and by the way your hair looks good today and and this is exactly what happens with people they say I can't believe in God and so now they're not gonna use g.od but they're gonna use universe universe I know that is the most hilarious thing it's like the universe spoke to me like dude universe doesn't speak okay things that speak we call them beings we we have give them names we don't we don't use a we don't use a object description for things that speak that just doesn't make any sense it's like my hat spoke to me like your hat doesn't speak the universe doesn't speak but people people me and that's hilarious yeah but it's that is exactly who we are and that's exactly why the vision of and Petersen gets at this with Matt Dillahunty when they start talking about his lawnmower you know and and Petersen knows this the the difficult thing is and here's the problem and CS Lewis nails this when he talks about pantheism because CS Lewis says what happens when you play you know basically when you start when you pray into the void and the void speaks back and you realize well what if what if this isn't you know a figment of my imagination well we know we have active imaginations and we project as much as yes for sure but and this is Lisa's Lewis's point what if you desert what if you decide that well maybe universe has designs on you that you haven't been that you haven't been asked to consent to that yeah but this is the story of humanity and it's right there in Genesis and it goes all the way through and this doesn't end because the the heart of the heart of our rebellion is that God is God and we are not and this really we really hate that that's probably want to be we want to control the world we are all Sauron you know looking for a way yeah yeah and did you think like my my wife is it is amazing I admire because she's able when someone says the universe and they'll say the universe you know I asked the universe whatever she doesn't flinch at all she just she just it's like in her mind she just replaced his universe with God and she's totally engaged with the president I have this like little glitch I'm like oh don't like that doesn't mean anything it it's not it's not it's not a how can you say I think I had the discussion with David fuller when he asked me about the universe and I said the universe the fact that you can say that the universe is one that you can use the word universe that you can say it all just that you that is pointing to you to something my friend is point of you to the to the notion that you can unify that you can unify all of manifestation and so there's something that pops up above it like it just happens you know universe how can you say that it's a there's something above it inevitably well and I think I mean for me you both you and Jordan have been extremely helpful for for helping me recognize the indispensability of hierarchies because we all I mean again once once Benjamin releases the conversation we had and and he talked about the social justice thing and how you know certain people are saying they're creating kind of a little island of privilege in that what I am oppressed instead of I think therefore I am I am oppressed therefore I am or am black therefore I am and and what they have to do is establish a little one little space that they won't deconstruct and it's like well there you go there's your there's your Idol right there and and the way you know gosh you guys have you know I always keep this dollar bill on my thing to you know look at the little pyramid with the separation of because here's the thing once you violate that third commandment and make the the thing that cannot be deconstructed into the top of your hierarchy you have now created a hierarchy that cannot stand yeah and that's it yeah you're right and it will fragment and it will splinter inevitably yeah and you cannot actually have a community around it because well I am black well that means everyone who is not black can't be part of your hierarchy and you're going to have a supremacist structure and and I think just recognizing hierarchy is is fundamental in this but then you bet but then you get into the fact that what happens with Christ and I realized this a number of years ago when I was going carefully through the gospel of loot is Christianity is this amazingly subtle working through of of equal and hierarchical it's it's just back and forth and you see Jesus so so what rebel ISM actually came to Livingstone's which was a hierarchically a mind-blowing experience that a British film crew would come to this church and the one thing that oli noted in my in my sermon that kind of caught his attention was you see this with Christ because he's at the top of the hierarchy and he says I'm at the bottom I am servant of all yeah that's why Christ is not at the top of the hierarchy it's not the right way it is the right way to see it but you also have to say that Christ fills the hierarchy that's what he does he's actually he's actually the entire hierarchy yet so so it is right to say that he's at the center he's at the top all of that is fine but you need to really understand that he fills it up he goes to the bottom to I mean the descend into Hades the crucifixion all of that is jamming the entire world into one crucifixion is insane you know it's like jamming the entire world into one event you know where the top and the bottom completely meet you know where where the mockery of Christ declaring him the king is an actual declaration of kingship you know where it's like all of it smashed together the story of the crucifixion is it drives you drive you insane if you think about it too much but I want to get to this idea that you said because I think that that's one of the things that like for example Jonathan hight gets wrong is that he's understood circumambulation he's understood this basic pattern but he thinks that you can just put anything there and circumambulate that's not how it works it doesn't it's not true you can't put anything there that the thing that you put in the middle has to have the quality of the middle you can't just put it you can't just put any random thing in the center because if you do then that's going to break apart it's going to break apart either in let's say in itself or it's going to break apart in the fact that it's going to cause war between the different the different parties like it's going to it's going to create the pagan problem where it's like the fight between the gods where the gods are warring amongst themselves you know and so that's that that's the the the supremacy of the let's say the monotheistic tradition is that we've come to a point where would we put at the highest is the highest right it's like we've said okay yeah okay so this that you know it's like okay so the these gods these gods these gods and then we know the God is the highest is the is the origin of all the God is the the infinite is the thing by which all things exist and so it's not the God of War or the God of this or the god of that no we've we've brought it all into the the the the thing by which everything exists so it's like we're circumambulating the highest thing by its very definition right it's and that's why I always get annoyed when when when people like Sam Harrison and them say you're an atheist you just you just not you're all the believers are atheists they're just atheist towards other gods like you can't you you you're you're being dishonest in comparing you know Mars with the the absolute with the you know with the the the the absolute transcendent God it's those two things are not the same we're not we're not talking about the same thing and so so I think that that's that's maybe one of the problems with but I mean oh it's great that that secular eight have understood at least that circumambulation is the manner in which the world exists they've they've kind of seen it but they saw this flat disc of this flat way of looking at it I think that one of the best illustrations of that I've come across recently as you know who Scott Alexander is star slate codex he has a blog he's a he's a psychiatrist the East Coast he writes Sudama pseudonym and suit anonymously and he he wrote a piece recently rod rear peaked it up as well it was called gay rights our ITES our civil rights our ITES he was in guatemala and noticed there easter pageantry and he compared that with kind of traditional american civil religious 4th of July parades and to the Pride Parade in San Francisco and he was making the point exactly as Jonathan height does that what these parades are doing is functionally equivalent to Jonathan heights circumambulation mm-hmm but what he can't see is exactly the point that you just made that that which you elevate and celebrate in your parade is not just well we need a glue to hold society together the glue matters stand and and the difference between a Paschal procession and and a pride carnival and it's and and they appear in the very manifestation of the two like one looks like a carnival one looks like a orderly procession of you know and so it's like you can just look at what they look like and you can see that one is on the edge and one is actually turning around the middle one is is a clown you know kind of there's a difference between Mardi Gras and Easter and yes we're not able to tell the difference anymore with like okay we think they're the same right and and I just want to say Jonathan I have learned so much from you and your work I think is astoundingly valuable when first yeah I mean I stumbled into this old Jordan Peterson thing gosh how did that happen well Scott of course but you know but and and then you know well there's this there's this Eastern Orthodox icon carvers land just a random guy and and I some of the first videos I listen to you I'm just thinking what is he talking about and but after a while I began to say oh wow oh wow I have learned I have learned so much from you and I'm I'm really I'm deeply grateful and indebted to your work because it I mean and so many of these things that you have that you have Illustrated I think so well have have helped me see a lot and so if if if there are moments that you say why am i making these videos well means like that talking to these random strangers and asking me cred I I look at the kinds of questions you're asked in your question answer videos sometimes it's like oh gosh I'm glad I a part of the reason I haven't started a question-and-answer thing is like I don't I hope they don't ask me the kinds of questions they ask Jonathan I don't know if I could answer them but I'm deeply grateful for your work it's not only very touching but it does you know to hear that from you you know I really it's very helpful like it's helpful like you said in those moments where I'm like okay what is going on am i doing I'm a youtuber you know as I hear my kids I hear my kids tell their friends that their fathers are youtuber and I'm like oh but my wife and oldest son actually have a phrase to try to make sure people don't watch my videos they're like well so I hear your father's on YouTube it's like yeah he looks like to our videos about religion and philosophy and once people hear that like but I've also I'm also really impressed I think like I'm also impressive the fact that you've been able to kind of reach out to just the everyday Liz I don't know you do it like the fact that you're able to have all these conversations with all these people that are watching your videos it's like you're taking people on this like therapeutic reconnection you know taking them taking their hand and kind of guiding them slowly towards towards God towards the church but in such a just a real therapeutic way you know it's it's a yes it's pretty it's pretty amazing it's like hopefully yeah hopefully all of this like this whatever it is that we're doing like you know discussion this weird thing that you know it's like yeah anyways I let's just say that I think that I think both of you I'm very grateful as well like I'm grateful to see that to see people come to you and I hear people to all the time like they days like I listen to fall everyday I send to Paul every day and it's like kind of like yeah they don't go to church yet but it's like Paul's my pastor they'll say things like that you know we're there but they don't go to church yet but it's like they know they kind of know that it's in their future they kind of know it but it's like yeah you know I'll get there but for now you know so so I think that that's awesome I think that's great yeah thank you well I one of the talking it takes a lot out of me because it's intensive listening that you have to do for people they don't know I wouldn't be that it takes a lot out of you because it's like if you keep going like this I don't and and this is I mean be crazy so one of the guys in our Meetup you know he was before Jordan came to Sacramento he was ready to kind of kiss Jordan goodbye because he was he was kind of done with the whole thing but they went to the VIP thing and and I he and I had the same experience because he's he's a psychologist and I'm a pastor we watched Jordan work that hundred sixty line of VIPs who had paid to shake a SAN and get their picture and how he was able to maintain you know listening intensity with each person that came through that line I I know what it's like to work a line and I I can't imagine how he's able to do that how he was able to do that on his book tour night after night that's that that that was phenomenal i I couldn't imagine it because I love the conversation with randos as they call themselves because every and here's the crazy thing about human beings you know they are their image bearers of God and every single person that comes to me especially if they can just tell their story and you know many of the stories I can't publish because they're too personal and it would involve parents or children or something like that but it's a it's a like we said earlier it's a holy thing that becomes holy ground where you know where they they share the pain and the tragedies and the victories of of common life and it's I mean God is God has been all over their lives and they haven't recognized them sometimes or seen him and as the the the great privilege of being a pastor is to is to steward those stories and and hopefully allow others to see God through the stories of ordinary people that's that's one of the things I learned from my father and his ministry and I think he learned from his father and his ministry so I I have to figure out how to do that in a sustainable way so well anyways it seems like you're succeeding in my in my perspective because I I couldn't like I think that I yeah vennett so so I think at least for sure the fact and even even if you tell me also I didn't know that a lot of the videos you're not putting up so it means that you're having even more conversations than the ones we're seeing so that's pretty cool I think it's great well people are that people are image bearers of God and and even if they're far from God or can't see God anywhere God's glory is you know their life is littered with God's glory and and God is working in the things that they don't see and it is a it is an amazing thing when when they come to a place where you know suddenly they came around a corner and oh my goodness there's there's God and it's the CS Lewis pantheism quote and okay well what what do I do now yeah that's exactly right what do you do now hmm when you find the burning bush do you do you you know run away that's a reasonable thing when you hear the voice that says take off your shoes you're on holy ground well the best thing to do is obey but we're we're messed-up creatures or something all right Paul I think I think I think we this is the longest conversation we've had I think like almost two hours so I you know I didn't want to you know with with everything going on in your life I didn't want to bother you with a conversation but I I still enjoy you Jonathan I love your laugh your get you have this weird giggle that you get to a point [Laughter] laughing the words I would my problems I laugh in the worst possible places the reason why I did I did a video on laughter where I kind of I did a video like it's like the meaning of laughter or something and and I was pretty harsh on laughter I think it's also just trying to understand why I laugh when things get weird or when it gets anyway look I'm happy if there if it's enjoyable yeah so anyway thank you Jonathan alright I do appreciate this and yeah you recorded it so you know whatever you want to do yes I recorded it and I think I missed like the very beginning cuz we've started right away and then it's like oh wait I need to record this so I'll see I'll gonna see how I edit do you what do you want to put up on your channel as well sure all right so what I'll do is we have a lot of people in common yeah we do have some that are so we should probably both post it so I will send you I'll send you the link and yeah and so I think that yeah that'd be great okay plan another future discussion and hopefully at some point we'll speak at the same place you know that'd be great I am I am talking to this one church that that would really love to have you out and so then if that happens maybe we could do some joint things and and I when I talked to John for Vicki maybe the three of us should do a three-way video at some point - that could be fun that could be a lot of fun yeah definitely definitely all right Paul all right Jonathan okay there all right bye-bye if you enjoy the symbolic world content there's a lot of things you can do to help us out if you're not subscribed please do go ahead and share this to all your friends if you can get involved in the discussion we have a Facebook group in which people can talk about these subjects I will put all those links in the description and also if you can please support us financially by going to my website www.ihaveaspergers.webs.com

Channel: Jonathan Pageau

Views: 26,961

Keywords: john vervaeke, benjamin boyce, jordan peterson, paul vanderklay, meaning crisis, 12 rules for life, jonathan pageau, the symbolic world, sam harris

Id: 8or_MOFXwF0

Length: 103min 19sec (6199 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 30 2019