Did Torshn Steal my Design?!

hey there friends it's Devin here with Make  Anything and well today I've got a less fun   video than usual but a video I feel compelled  to make nonetheless it's something that a lot   of people have been reaching out to me about and  I think it's also a valuable learning opportunity   so here are my thoughts on the Torshn puzzle  Kickstarter and claims that it's a knockoff of my   Astrolabicon puzzle from three years earlier to be  clear I'm not making any formal accusations here   but I really felt the need to share my perspective  so with that said let's take a look back   to March 24th about a month ago when I first  received an email from Liem at torshndesign.com   you've got mail hi Devin my name's Liem and I love combination  puzzles my friends and I have all seen what's   been done with sphericons in the past couple of  years and wanted to explore the shape because we   thought it would make a great Orb puzzle remake  then we came across your Astrolabicon puzzle and   you had made almost exactly what we were thinking  we decided to go balls to the walls and make one   out of solid aluminum and put our own spin on the  shape we loved the magnetic system that you used   because it's so robust nothing can really break  and it'll last virtually forever it was super hard   to develop a process that could carve the cavities  but I think it turned out amazing we're planning   on doing a kickstarter to help us do a production  run of them and we'd love to send you one if   you're interested not looking for a review or  anything just wanted to share it with you let me   know smiley face love your 3D printing mission by  the way exclamation point exclamation point best,   Liem now parts of this email might come off as  genuine on their own but upon looking into this   Kickstarter campaign I couldn't help but read  it as a thinly veiled attempt to flatter me into   submission as this mysterious design team uses  nearly every element of my Astrolabicon puzzle   for their own puzzle but let's take a closer  look and you can form your own opinions so here's   the Kickstarter page for the Torshn puzzle "a  unique combination puzzle that tickles the mind"   well first there's the video which  I'll admit it's shot very well it   shows a few folks solving the puzzle and then  there's this view of the puzzle being solved   and here's a video of mine from three  years earlier just for comparison then they talk about how much they've struggled  for a year to design this puzzle and oh look they   use Fusion 360 too then we've got their story  full of lovely renders and an explanation of   the objective of their puzzle which almost seems  interchangeable with that of the Astrolabicon   "align the colors to each other by sliding the  marbles and twisting the halves solving the puzzle   may initially seem straightforward but you'll  quickly find that it's trickier than it looks"   whereas my store listing reads "twist the  two halves of the Astrolabicon puzzle and   shift marbles to rearrange them until all  like colored marbles are touching it sounds   easy until you realize that each twist  changes the behavior of the marble track"   scroll scroll scroll and there's a bunch of  fluff about how great their puzzle is and that it   belongs in a museum and then they go on to talk  about their greatest inspiration for this project   the awesome Orb puzzle invented by Christopher  C Wiggs and Christopher J Taylor in 1981   now you don't have to believe me but I actually  hadn't seen this puzzle when I designed my version   of the Astrolabicon so I will readily admit  that coincidences and similarities between   designs happen all the time in fact a bigger  coincidence was that user u/davidthewalkerx   posted a much more similar concept on Reddit just  around the same time David was inspired by the   Maker's Muse video about sphericons that was also  released in the Summer of 2018 and in that video   Angus graciously teases my upcoming video about  sphericons and the Astrolabicon because it was   something we discussed in our Twitter DMs once we  realized that we were working on similar videos   in fact in the video where I first shared the  Astrolabicon I also showed David's version and I   also mentioned the Astrolabacus which was designed  in 1997 by John D Harris so yes we were all   working on similar designs around the same time  but in my honest opinion the Torshn puzzle and   the Astrolabicon are more than just similar to the  point where I've been receiving literally hundreds   of DMs, comments, emails, messages and so on about  how someone is using my design on Kickstarter   so here's my Astrolabicon and here's, well, a  version of my Astrolabicon that I modified to   look more like the Torshn puzzle I really  didn't have to change much because I could   use most of the same measurements and the way I  see it this is like a Rubik's cube 2x2 to my 3x3   my puzzle is based on a six sided sphericon it's  held together with an array of six magnets and a   central pin so that it snaps into its different  positions the torsion puzzle is based on   a four-sided sphericon so it has four magnets  in a similar array around the central pin for   the same function my original Astrolabicon used  these green, blue, red, and yellow glass marbles   six of each whereas the Torshn puzzle uses  the same exact marbles just half as many and   the mechanism for solving both  puzzles is pretty much the same   mine's just a little more challenging because  it has more marbles see it's frustrating because   I generally don't mind if people take elements  from my designs in fact it's one of my greatest   motivations for sharing all my stuff here on  Make Anything I want to provide inspiring content   for people to build off of but in this case where  so many people are confusing the Torshn puzzle   for mine and thinking that I must be involved  that's where I find it too close for comfort   so looping back to that email well I still gave  Liem some benefit of the doubt but I was also   very straightforward about my concerns I wrote hi  Liem thank you for reaching out your manufacturing   technique is impressive and the puzzle looks great  but I'll be honest the Torshn puzzle looks like a   direct copy of my Astrolabicon aesthetically  I don't own the rights to this type of puzzle   but the styling of your puzzle could be mistaken  as one of mine far too easily to the point where I   see it as an infringement of my design I wish you  would have approached me earlier about a licensing   agreement or otherwise made a more transformative  change to the look of the puzzle I'm all about   encouraging creativity and making but I think  it's been done a bit irresponsibly in this case   I hope you'll consider making changes before  selling this puzzle to distinguish it from my   own twisty puzzles sorry for being a snob but I  do value the protection of intellectual property   so I'm being upfront with you and under other  circumstances I'd consider working together to   produce the Astrolabicon since you seem to have  solid manufacturing abilities and also operate in   California anyways let me know your thoughts I'm  open to discussion best regards Devin to that Liem   responded with apparent shock that I would even  consider our puzzle similar besides both puzzles   are similar to this Orb puzzle from the 80s' and  they used the sphericon in a "very different way"   again I stuck to my opinion I brought up all  the similarities and I hoped to compromise   by suggesting a design change to their puzzle so  it's more distinguishable from mine or otherwise   compensating me for my design decisions if they  were to continue using them here's the thing   no I didn't spend the thousands of dollars  to file a design patent on this puzzle   as someone who's working on my own and  constantly sharing my designs on youtube   it would be prohibitively expensive and time  consuming for me to do that for all of my designs   I did try to make a case about my legal rights  to this design but I honestly don't want to be   involved in legal battles so I generally don't  patent things like this I'd rather just trust in   the goodness of people and hope that designers  would rather create unique products so that's   on me anyways Liem responded again insisting  that their puzzle looks dramatically different   and going back to that Orb puzzle but look at  these puzzles and tell me how my Astrolabicon   doesn't look more like one than the other that  these are all equally similar then less than   a week later I received a letter from a lawyer  representing "the makers of the Torshn puzzle"   which sought to refute the claims I made in my  emails admittedly he was accurate to say that   I couldn't really do much about the mechanical  features of the puzzle without patents that's   how US law works so there's a lesson for me that  said I wouldn't say he made the strongest argument   to my claim that these designs don't appear  substantially different as creative works and   therefore violate my copyright in the letter he  puts a few photos of the two puzzles side by side   but, well, I just don't think he used the  right photos here's a few examples for a start and again I've had so many people reaching out  to me mistaking the Torshn puzzle for my design   anyways let's continue down their Kickstarter  page the next section talks about their decision   to ditch evil plastic and use aluminum to be  ultra sustainable and create a product that lasts   forever while also citing a webpage that says  toys are only used for six months on average so   that's kind of a conflicting message and believe  me I'm very aware of the negative impacts of our   society's rampant use of plastics I'm not trying  to defend that but I do have a feeling that this   mostly hollow PLA puzzle 3D printed at home with  just 30 grams of material might actually have less   negative environmental impact compared to a solid  block of aluminum carved on a giant CNC mill,   anodized, sandblasted and shipped across the world  they also tout the near infinite recyclability of   aluminum but never actually claimed to be  making the puzzles from recycled metal now   determining the actual environmental impact  of a product from cradle to grave requires a   pretty thorough life cycle analysis and that's  not really the point of this particular video   so all I'll say is that it's not necessarily  as clear-cut as it seems finally there's this   section about Torshn design group who we are  that's a good question they say they're a small   group of tinkerers from Oakland, California who  were tired of working on other people's projects   they want you to support designers who are  "truly passionate about the product they build"   and fight "unsustainable conglomerates" by  "helping small creators bring their ideas to life" that might be the most insulting  part of this whole thing to me   these folks share a timeline that starts  the same year that I shared my puzzle   they were inspired by my design in what seems  like just about every way and yet they didn't   think to contact me for three years until just  a few days before launching their campaign   and speaking of that Torshn design  joined Kickstarter just this year   they anonymously registered their domain in March  to create this sparse webpage that gives no names   no physical address or much of anything and even  their attorney's letter doesn't reveal anything   about their "client" on Kickstarter they promise  to be 100% transparent but that's just not what   I'm seeing I literally don't know the faces behind  this project I've also been told that several   Kickstarter comments bringing up the similarity  between our puzzles have been deleted though they   did keep up one statement from April 14th in  it they continue to insist that their puzzle   was designed independently and they reached out  to me about sharing my content with no response   well I've already shared my email response  from nearly three weeks before that comment   so that's just not true maybe they meant to say  that they didn't get the response they wanted   and again I could totally accept the coincidence  of them deciding to make a sphericon puzzle before   seeing my Astrolabicon but I have serious doubts  that it would look and function as it does now   without taking most of their design cues from  my puzzle and to top it off their ads are now   running on my YouTube videos and targeting you  fortunately I've been able to seek advice from   an excellent attorney who also taught at Art  Center College where I studied Product Design   and while I may have a legitimate copyright  case here I didn't formally register my work   so it wouldn't be such a straightforward thing and  again I'm not really interested in legal battles   I was really just hoping to have an  honest conversation with these folks   but all I've sensed is feigned ignorance and  unwillingness to compromise so with that I decided   to make this video so I could at least share  my personal thoughts on the matter and I'm also   interested in hearing other opinions so if you  have your own perspective please share it in the   comments and maybe share this video if you think  it's valuable I would hope that people backing   this campaign at least hear my side of the story  well that's about it so if you want to support   this small creator you can download and print  your own Astrolabicon puzzle at MyMiniFactory.com   this version is available for free and I also  sell limited physical prints at DevinMontes.com   or if you just want to support the channel you  can do that by visiting patreon.com/MakeAnything   more than anything I'm just grateful to all of you  for hearing me out and standing up for what you   think is right and well I'm really excited to get  back to actually making things and sharing them   here on make anything so if that's something you  want to be a part of please consider subscribing   and stay tuned but that's it for today so until  then take care and as always stay inspired

Channel: Make Anything

Views: 1,853,737

Rating: 4.9045863 out of 5

Keywords: 3D printed, 3d printing, 3D print, 3d printer, make anything, torshn, astrolabicon, sphericon, puzzle, puzzles, kickstarter, torshn puzzle, astrolabicon puzzle, sphericon puzzle, copyright law, copyright protection, intellectual property, design, design theft, product design

Id: ly02Lve1K0s

Length: 16min 17sec (977 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 30 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/letsdieanywhereelse]

Thank you for posting this, I had actually backed this Kickstarter and will be rescinding my pledge now that I know the design is stolen. Sorry this happened to you! :(

[u/Nowhere_Games]

I would report it to KS if that is the case. Its against their TOS.

[u/nintendobratkat]

Based on the comments on the KS, it's already on Aliexpress?

[u/Gadgiteer]

Torshn Kickstarter

[u/Nowhere_Games]

Your other option is to sue them and settle. Puzzles are copyrighted in the US. And with them making 250k potentially I'm 1 month, it would be in everyone's interest to settle.

Get yourself listed as the actual Inventor, get 10% of KS sales and 5% of all sales moving forward and you're going to be fine.

Either way, the original Inventor has ownership of the copyright.

[u/aladinmothertrucker]

They are still shamelessly adding more and more comments in their Kickstarter page:

We have gotten some comments recently regarding Make Anything’s recent video. While we understand and appreciate everyone’s, including Devin’s concerns, as small creators ourselves, we believe this type of red tape and gatekeeping shouldn’t get in the way of advancement.

Yeah this is straightforward plagiarism - and we will shamelessly copy your invention and if you stop us, you are the wrong one.

We recognize Devin takes issue and, as is often the case, we have to agree to disagree. We are all free to create novel products in the same category as other products.

Haha, let's see what you can do about it. We have convinced ourselves that we didn't steal it despite it being so evidently clear to everyone that we did. But you didn't patent it, poor you.

[u/Underthec21]

Do you have a link to the original one at all?

[u/trailboots]

Welcome to kickstarter! Full of overseas people selling junk form alibaba and "borrowing" ideas form others! Why does this happen you may ask? because there is no legal recourse for getting money back from overseas accounts if it is done properly. So many scam going on. I bet they don't even fulfill half the orders! Patents mean nothing to some Asian countries unless you patent them in the their country. It is a shame that kickstarter is a hot bed for this type of activity. No way to vet a company unless they are state side and have a business on file so people can look them up.

[u/FrugalityPays]

This is really disappointing, sorry to see this happen to you ! Please file a report with KS!