Depth, Mastery, and Vanquish
Video Statistics and Information
No captions available for this video.
Channel: Game Maker's Toolkit
Views: 492,058
Rating: 4.9705024 out of 5
Keywords: game design, game maker's toolkit, game maker, mark brown, vanquish, bayonetta, platinumgames, shinji mikami, hideki kamiya, polygon, gamasutra, the wonderful 101, metal gear rising, madworld
Id: IG8LVpuzYls
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 8min 59sec (539 seconds)
Published: Mon Mar 28 2016
Please note that this website is currently a work in progress! Lots of interesting data and statistics to come.
I love the talk about depth and width (or "breadth" as he calls it).
Width is inherent complexity
Where as Depth is emergent complexity
Width is learning 100 different heroes in Dota or League of Legends, having to learn hundreds of cards in Hearthstone, unlocking a plethora of different guns over time in Call of Duty, and other things like that.
Depth is discovering a new way to utilize actions you've had since you started playing a game. Maybe something like learning to pull creep camps from the jungle in Dota, or hiding on a wall to surprise an opponent in Splatoon.
The difficult part is that Deep games are much harder to make. Wide games, as inefficient as it is, can at least be kept alive indefinitely through a constant stream of new content.
The one thing I take issue with, that this guy is talking about, is that little exploit-y tricks are a good way to make a game deeper. It's true that they add another layer that a skilled player can take advantage of, but in my opinion depth doesn't necessarily come from physical dexterity like the author of the video implies, and even more than that I don't think it's good design to have a completely unexplained mechanic within a game be what separates a good player from a bad player.
A game like Auro for example is turn-based, and features completely intentional mechanics, and yet has a crazy amount of emergent complexity. The depth from that game comes from figuring out how to better use your spells and how to manipulate the enemies around you.
I think when the developers of a game like Call of Duty see something like animation canceling on the reload, and like it as a mechanic, they should make it a mechanic rather than leave it in as an exploit.
That video nails what I love about Platinum's games, but also highlights where in my opinion Wonderful 101 went wrong:
In Bayonetta, MGR, Vanquish etc. you can be any one of those 3 types of gamers that video mentions from the very beginning and do things at your own pace, with only your own capabilities and ambitions standing in the way of your success.
If you know how to dodge offset in Bayonetta and you want to do it, you can start doing it right in the tutorial. The only thing that adds to your experience by that point are the weapons (and amulets or whatever they're called) with which you can challenge yourself to try out new things and/or better cater to your own playstyle.
But Wonderful 101 hinders you from performing even the simplest moves without unlocking them first, meaning the first few hours and every time you get a new ability you have to wait for it to gain a moveset. Before that, it's buttonmashy, and you can't really improve your play and push the limits of your skills and the game's mechanics.
That the developer even mentioned that the first playthrough is supposed to be a tutorial is very telling and fitting, because that's the way it felt to me. Additionally, Wonderful 101 is one of Platinums's longest games, which only exacerbates the problem.
Its a great shame that you cant get Platinums games on PC. I guess its finally time to get a second game for my WiiU.
I love a game that allows you to figure out its depth. Can anyone think of another studio that tends to make similar stuff? Bonus pints if its for PC, but I would still be interested in getting some ideas for who else is doing stuff like this.
"But ignore that weird DS game Infinite Space for now" :(
Infinite Space is one of my favorite RPGs/DS games, and had a crazy good story. However, I've never met someone else that played it, and it's both too lengthy and doesn't have interesting enough gameplay to recommend it to anyone. If someone here has played it though, please let me know so I can increase the number of people I've ever heard that played it above 1.
Great video. I know that unfortunately we'll probably never get a sequel, or even a remaster for the new consoles, but I would LOVE to just have a PC version of the game. Vanquish is one of the few games I've played through multiple times (I actually just played through it again about 2 weeks ago), and I dread the day that my PS3 breaks and I'll never be able to play Vanquish again :(
Vanquish was probably the last game I bought because it looked interesting in the store. Remember the days when you just walked in, browsed around the shelves and picked something that looked neat?
I definitely wasn't expecting it to be to have such eastern influences, but it was a pleasant surprise and holds a special place in my cold little heart.
Are there any good games like Vanquish for the PC? It looks pretty badass, too bad it's only on console.
Weren't there rumors of a possible pc release?
One of his best videos, and covered the three layers perfectly. Plus the difference in Depth vs Width mention was cool.
Also, I'd also like to mention Devil May Cry 3/4 and God Hand to very skill based games made by Capcom, and Platinum (published by Capcom). Both games kicked ass even on easy difficult, never did the game discouraged player for defeat. I played this both games as my first 3D action games, and I was forced to see the "Continue..?" screen. But I had so much fun that I perceived and completed them (Never God Hand, that game kicks way to much ass)
For an entertaining God Hand run, Here's MikeKob's amazing hard mode run
For Devil May Cry 4, Here's donguri990