Debate: Was January 6th an Existential Threat to Democracy?

[Music] thank you hi everybody and welcome to Intelligence Squared and hello to our audience here at the Comedy Cellar in New York City where we are putting on a debate as part of our no laughing matter series the question we're taking on is was January 6th an existential threat to democracy Now six months after the assault on the U.S Capitol and January 6 of 2021 President Biden put out a statement in which he himself referred to that as a moment that posed an existential threat to our democracy but in the same statement he said our democracy prevailed and I'm what we're going to be looking at is which of those two things are those in tension with one another if it was under threat and it prevailed is that because it was strong or was it always fragile and it was a near Miss that's what we're going to be debating with this question was existed as January 6th an existential threat to democracy but we would like to know where you are our audience here at the Comedy Cellar on the question itself how you would answer it before you've heard the arguments so I'd like to do this very unscientifically using the Applause meter so to those of you who would say yes to the question was democracy threatened by January 6th existentially if you believe the answer is yes could you please applaud and if your answer to that question would be no we'd like to hear your applause and if you're undecided on it could we hear your applause okay all right so we'll do some Applause at again at the end so thank you for that and now what I'd like to do is have you meet our Debaters arguing yes to the question that January 6 was an existential threat to democracy is election strategist managing partner at CAE strategies and vice president of the fair election center Rebecca Carruthers and arguing no your opponent to make the argument that January 6 was not an existential threat to democracy here is author and entrepreneur and podcast host of how to fix democracy Andrew Keane um so Andrew and and Rebecca you both come at this topic uh with different expertise but both very very interested in the thing that uh we're debating um Andrew you're a researcher of global democracy and Rebecca you work as a political consultant um and a strategist and a champion for fair voting um I want to ask you very briefly um how this debate crosses paths with what you do professionally so Rebecca how about you go first so professionally I do a lot of pro-democracy work because I believe that if you believe in democracy you should do things to strengthen democracy and to actually make sure that American democracy is actually that beacon on the hill a lot of people around the world view American democracy as a mature democracy January 6 shows that it wasn't so for me is very crucial that we discuss exactly how threatening January 6 was and how threatening it is with the erosion to our democracy thank you Rebecca and Andrew the same question to see where does it cross paths with what you do well I have a a podcast called keen on which I interview a lot of writers historians journalists who write about contemporary issues and I'm also the host of a show called how to fix democracy it's in its fourth year in the next couple of years we're focusing on American democracy between 1924 and 2024 so I deal with it on a daily basis with these various broadcast shows all right it's great to have that perspective on what you both do and it gives a little hint I think of where you're going to be going with your opening arguments but I'd like to go to those arguments now we're going to give each of you about four minutes to tell us what why you're taking the position that you're taking uh Rebecca you're up first again you answered yes to the question was January 6 an existential threat to our democracy tell us why so when we look at January 6th is it is unfortunate that some people deal with January 6th the way we did in the 90s with environmental justice when we thought of at that time global warming and I just to let you know something about me I'm from Omaha Nebraska I'm sure there's a lot of questions with how it's a black girl from Omaha Nebraska on both sides of the family I promise if you invite me back for Juneteenth I'll tell you the full story but in the 90s it was very snarky in Nebraska well if there is global if there's global warming then why do we have cold Winters but people didn't understand that climate change was something bigger right and so when we think about January 6 and the outcome of January 6th if we view January 6 as a permission structure to openly undo democracy we start to see how January 6 was an existential threat to democracy especially when we look at what happened immediately afterwards in 2021 and state legislatures all across the country how over 41 State legislatures introduced all all manners of voter suppression legislation to actually make it harder for people to vote and to make it harder for specific people in this country to vote who lawfully and legally should have been able to vote so that's the intellectual argument but let's also talk about the emotional argument the first shot that was fired wasn't January 6th but it was at Charlottesville and the whole idea about Charlottesville is who gets to be an American in the 21st century I would even argue that this tension this argument goes back to some of those founding arguments at the beginning and the foundation of this country but this attention that's still there who gets to have their voice heard in our society and so specifically for me on January 6 I was sitting on my couch because this DC we were still in a lockdown with the pandemic doing work remotely and I started to get texts from people hey are you okay I'm like what are you talking about they knew at that time that I live kind of close to the Capitol I could look out my front window and I could actually see the Dome of the capitol I started to get texts from my friends checking hey are you okay because I used to work on the hill and spend a lot of time on the hill I had family and friends across the country who thought I was inside the capitol so I start texting my friends who were inside the Capitol and not hearing from them for hours but then when I heard from them hey I'm in lockdown in my member's office we're barricading doors and so to think about all the people who want to serve our country through public policy work in Capitol Hill and now they're literally wondering if they're going to make it home alive that day yeah that's a threat the third point it's just the physical point it literally was an attack on our democracy and it was attack on the symbol of the American democracy and so I think all those things combined I hope we can have a really great and robust discussion tonight and just talk through it through those frames so once again thank you so much for being here today thank you all so much to intelligent squared for having us I'm so excited to debate Andrew tonight thank you very much Rebecca Carruthers and so Andrew the floor is now yours you're answered again to the question was American democracy threatened by January 6 is no why he left out existential existential thank you many many syllables yeah well repeat the question so what was January 6th an existential threat to America's democracy so remember that you're the audience you're deciding you're our jury you're determining whether or not it was an existential threat and as Pete suggested at the beginning he doesn't know what existential meant I suspect he does it means death of American democracy did January 6th reflect uh a moment when American democracy could have died was it a day to live like Pearl Harbor perhaps an infamy could it been the one day in two three hundred years where American democracy would have died that's the question here um that's the only issue that you should be thinking about not a threat but an existential threat and I actually think that January 6th was from American democracy's point of view a good day because it reflected the failure of trump and of trumpism uh the important dates to think about are the hundred days before uh well 60 days before January 6th uh Donald Trump tried to uh in his own way and one wonders whether he ever really tries to do anything but what he was trying to do after the election was orchestrate an unconstitutional coup he was trying to organize a movement within his own party and with his supporters to break American democracy he was saying that the votes of the American people are wrong and I'm going to change I'm going to break American democracy and in the 60 days between November 3rd and January 6th he failed he failed on many fronts in those 60 days American democracy held up extremely well the Judiciary held up the Supreme Court wouldn't hear the nonsense claims that him and his idiot followers and Rudy Giuliani brought to the courts the administration held up pretty well there was a rebellion within Trump's Administration the grown-ups rebelled against Trump the Attorney General General Miley they all rebelled they supported American democracy they supported the will of the American people um the military made it very clear that they wouldn't intervene in American politics in democracy that they wouldn't do the Dirty Work of Donald Trump and in those 60 days The Narrative was formed was shaped Trump failed and what happened was that almost all the rats left the sinking nasty ship the Trump ship that was going down a few were left the real crazes Rudy Giuliani of course Michael Flynn uh one or two others but most of them gave up they failed they failed in the courts they failed in every respect even Mitch McConnell was against Trump by the end so what happened on January 6th January 6th was a riot to Zachary a rebellion of an underclass a tiny underclass of people who had no understanding of what was happening The Oath Keepers and the others who were mythologized often in the media they had no power they had no coherence this wasn't the seizing of The Winter Palace this wasn't in any way an organized plot it was chaos it was violence it was a manifestation of failure of Defeat of Trump's ragged Army and what was Trump doing was he Lenin managing things playing chess organizing the recesser of power no what was Trump doing what he always did watching television so in my view and as you can tell I'm no great fan of trump or the January 6th insurrectionists it was a farce it wasn't the Civil War they were trying to recreate the Civil War but as Marx quoting Hegel famously said history repeats itself first as tragedy as with the American Civil War and secondly with farce as in January 6. thank you Andrew Keane so listening to the opening argument I I hear already that the two of you might be framing what we're talking about in uh in in somewhat non-overlapping ways what I think I hear you saying Rebecca is that January 6 is emblematic of something bigger that it was part of something bigger and Andrew I hear your framing being let's talk about what happened that day and whether the actions that took place that day ever came close to destroying America's democracy so um the the lack of overlap could be problematic but except for the fact that I would like to each of you to spend a little bit of time assuming the other person's premise and debating it and then switching to the other side so Rebecca I would go to you first if if Andrew's Framing and his argument that the events of that day uh demonstrated in fact that the people who were moving into the capital who were taking over the capital including the people who had plans and motivations and the larger number of people who apparently were just sort of swept along and a little dumbfounded of where they found themselves that plus the fact that the people around Trump did not go cooperate with what he was trying to do on that day does does he have a point about that day they never came close they never came close to doing what to succeeding in what they wanted to do so if we were to view it in just that narrow perspective of well we still have a democracy so January 6 wasn't a threat if we viewed it from that limited point of view even with that framework we just saw new text messages this week of all of the conservative members who reached out to the chief of staff at the time to Donald Trump asking for pardons from the president to get a presidential pardon putting on my legal Hat real fast I'm a recovering attorney to get a presidential pardon that requires an omission of guilt they were asking for presidential pardons from their part and what led up to January 6 and their part in January 6. second when we look at how close the insurrectionists that violent mob was to then vice president Pence with an intent to kill the vice president of the United States to stop the count I believe that's a direct quote stop the count and then third when we even look at how close Jenny Thomas was an instrumental in this and now that we know she's married to a Supreme Court Justice the only Justice who decided that he wasn't going to vote with the rest of the court in manners and things are coming from the court in regards to January 6. so even if we have the limited framework that Andrew suggests even then there isn't just a failure of what happened in our country but there is a foundational threat that impacts all three branches of government and it spoils it so yes I will still argue that that existential that foundational threat is still there Andrew if if sorry I want to let you respond to Rebecca said but I want to start with picking up on a point she made if Mike Pence had been murdered that day would that have represented an existential threat to our democracy it would have definitely represented the next substantial threat to Mike Pence that was it I set you up and sat me up it's a hard one to answer I mean it would have been bad for Pence and his family but I'm not sure it would have necessarily been that bad for American democracy would have been so absurd for the proud boys or whoever else was uh hanging this guy to be hanging one on their own team that people would have I'm not sure if they'd have laughed they might have laughed grimly ironically but it wouldn't what would it what would have been the result the military would have come in probably Trump would have been imprisoned um that the crisis that's kind of brewing and I agree with what Rebecca's saying the crisis that is reflected more broadly in American culture perhaps or in political culture would have been compounded but Congress wouldn't have shut the elections wouldn't have been uh put off so I I think it would have created it would have been like a 9 11 moment of enormous shock but in terms of infrastructural change in terms of undermining democracy no what would have constituted on that day a version of events that would satisfy an existential threat to American democracy I think that's an easier question to answer um I mean think of Lenin Lennon was a political Mastery he was in Zurich in 1915 1916 the soldier Nixon wrote a wonderful book about him he was so focused on the Caesar of power so focused on uh undermining the Russian state which he understood that was touching he gave up chess because he wanted to focus on the Caesar of power he wanted to figure out where the weak spots in the Russian autocracy was and how the Bolsheviks could go and seize power had Trump been Lenin which is hard to imagine of course but had he had he had Lennon's skill his political understanding of power had Trump plotted it rather than simply stood in front of a television like Chauncey Gardner and just watched as he spent the last he seems to spend his whole life doing had he figured out well if if I can get Miley on my side if I can arm these guys if we can indeed get Pelosi or Pence or somebody else as a hostage if we have a strategy if rather than in a trumpian manner just throw everything at the wall and hope that something sticked he's done that his whole life he did it during his presidency um but he he's the opposite of Lenin um and maybe there'll be a maybe DeSantis or Peter Thiel is the the the Republican version of of Lenin but for the moment he he had no political plan if you're gonna if you're gonna undermine American democracy if you're going to say okay the election was a fraud it was a cheat I'm going to shut it down there was a lady here from Turkey she's very familiar with military coups she's very familiar with generals coming and saying okay we're shutting the party down no more elections we're putting the political we're putting the politicians in jail and this is what we're going to replace it with but Trump hadn't thought about that Bannon gives it some thought I think Bannon is a much scarier character than Trump but Trump was in charge uh on January 6th or perhaps more appropriately he wasn't in charge which is why it wasn't an existential threat Rebecca do you want to respond and if not I have another question to go to sure you know maybe being in New York is very apropos for this particular debate you all are very familiar familiar with Donald Trump and I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice to undermine the intellect of Donald Trump just because he doesn't show up as a well-read ivy league scholar doesn't mean that he lacks intelligence he went to Wharton there's different forms of intelligence and the thing about Donald Trump and his ability to get people on his side and to pathologically lead is something that's very dangerous to our country but this biggest thing that I want to say it wasn't just Mike Pence the man or Nancy Pelosi the woman that was targeted it was constitutional officers of the United States who were targeted for assassination so let's not undermine what actually happened that day and how if that actually had happened at that time the disaster in American history that it would have been but that's not to say that the attempted assassinations weren't a threat to American democracy yeah let me add on the I'm not sure I answered your question John before on on pence in all seriousness had Pence been killed by the crowd and had um Trump had the ability to replace him presumably if he'd been thinking it through he would have replaced him or with a vice president who would have gone along with the scheme of undermining the election and saying okay uh we're gonna We're Not Gonna count the Pennsylvania or the Arizona or the Florida or the the Georgia delegations because their elections were corrupt so even in that sense he hadn't really thought it through I'm not sure he even had a a vice president lined up by Prince's own words when Secret Service try to force him into the car and take him to locations unknown Pence himself told the American public that he was scared of what was going to happen if he got into that car and if he got into that car there was going to be constitutional implications so let's not pretend that don't say he wasn't just taking about what happens to him he was talking about the Constitution the peaceful transition of power but the historical it was it's understanding what was happening in that moment and we can't just well it didn't secede on paper so it wasn't a big deal it was I I want to I want to bring the question of intention to to each of you to take take on but it it has been said I've seen the argument made that though those who were took part in the assault from those who were deeply organized to those who were sort of drawn along in their minds they were not overthrowing democracy so convinced that they've been that the election had been stolen they thought that they were there to preserve democracy and I want to know whether that element figures for either of you into the way that you argue this proposition well I think you have to break down that the people involved in the Insurrection now I think there were a significant proportion of people who were you know in a Jeffersonian sense I guess thinking of Jefferson famously said every new generation requires some blood and who believed the simply and the right to demonstrate and uh and shout and scream and run around and perhaps even um knock some doors and windows in and run into in into Congress there were one or two figures I think um amongst the demonstrators who had more evil more murderous intent but they were so they were so incompetent uh there was one guy who ran one of the groups who who only had one eye he uh he he armed everyone but then he forgot to show up himself so he was trying to organize it from a motel um it's a farce it's a comedy and and I also want to come back on on a point it's kind of ironic in a way Rebecca and I differ on on Donald Trump she sees him in a more I mean you respect him more than I do I wouldn't say that I respect him in the classic sense of respect I don't underestimate those who are a threat to my existence but but okay so if he is such a smart guy calculated yes if he is so calculating why did he spend most of January 6th watching television why wasn't he organizing these people why wasn't he saying do this do that well I want to take that as a rhetorical question because I want to move to the framework Rebecca that you've brought to this debate where you you're defining January 6 as an emblematic of a much larger movement going on that has a past and that continues I think you would say to have a present so make that what would be your challenge to Andrew on that basis to persuade him that that framing is actually a highly relevant critical and necessary well I would invite you to take a trip to a few states with me so let's just you know take a quick trip right now let's go to the uppermost portion of boys of Idaho right now and how it's considered no man's land when you go just east of Spokane and you do you know like the little like chimney part of Idaho even law enforcement doesn't Patrol that area anymore they're giving up on it because it's a Unholy mix of the KKK the proud boys the three percenters and all sorts of people who don't believe in central government and who believe very strongly that there shouldn't be any authority over what they do and it is their god-given right to live how they want to live and Rule how they want to live and it's also included with that racial violence I will also say let's go to Oregon let's go outside the liberal Bastion that is Portland and let's go into other parts of Oregon let's go to Kansas where we have proud boys who got elected to office in the last year and a half let's look at a lot of the election deniers while there were a lot of secretaries of State candidates who were election deniers that lost there were many down ballot who won there's a lot of new election administrators across the country we could look at Michigan who now feel like they have the right to nullify the election results and we now have this new thing called the independent state legislature Theory and we could go to North Carolina we could look how the proud boys decided they were going to fire upon the power grid and actually create a blackout that was just a test so let's just take a trip of what's Happening across the country I think that's very enlightening of what's going on and what the undercurrent is so that undercurrent and that Dynamic I think you're arguing of January 6th in a sense you're saying it is still January 6th and I want to take that to Andrew Well I agree absolutely with Rebecca we're not arguing on this doesn't matter what January 6th you look at whether it's 1957 1967 1977 1987. you will find exactly what she's talking about you will find racism you will find hostility to uh democracy you will find enormous uh amounts of violence and resentment against the Central State against authorities against technocracy so I I don't disagree with that but if that's the case then every day in American history is an existential crisis of democracy we could pick any date it doesn't even have to be January 6th it can be any day of the year in any year is a crisis and you're right perhaps American democracy is not as strong as not as um as as as [Music] as secure as most of us think and I think in that sense January 6th was an excellent wake-up call to remind us Americans or Americans generally and the rest of the world to people in Germany and turkey and Austria that that American democracy isn't as healthy but okay that we don't need January so for that so as as we do have these competing framings of the of what the motion means I'll I I want to leave it to our audience when you decide at the end which side you're on also which of our Debaters makes the most persuasive argument for what that should mean because Andrew is making the case that it was that day was relatively singular and that it demonstrated the strength of American democracy because it was unsuccessful and because as he cited there were so many examples of Institutions that stood by American democracy and on the other hand Rebecca's saying it is an emblem of something that is continuing to go on that is pervasive and running deep and that that January 6 is more of a symbol so that assignment I hand to you when you make your decision at the end of the debate I want to start going to you and our audience for questions unless either of you wants to respond to anything else you said please Rebecca go sure I hear Andrew what you're saying of like you know every day there's threats there's all sorts of isms and things that are part of the undercurrent so let me crystallize this for you when I say that January 6 was a permission structure I mean it these tensions have been here since the founding of this country and it's kind of been baked in right but the permission structure that was different on January 6 is when the president of the United States is trying to openly undo democracy regardless of what is going on and what's the undercurrent in the country to now take the mask off some people might say they take the proverbial hood off however you want to describe it that's what happened there were mechanisms in government that should have been working that did not work such as when Washington DC mayor Muriel Bowser called the Department of Defense and said there is chaos on the streets my Force the metropolitan police force is overrun we need assistance when Nancy Pelosi calls the sergeant of arms and says hey we need to call the White House because our Capitol Police is overwrought and when the president just ignored it yes he was watching TV I guess he threw spaghetti at the wall or something and Drake a Coke and a overcooked steak with ketchup on it ew gross however there were levers of government that was supposed to be working that he abdicated that he walked away from that he and we all saw the spoofs and outtakes of him trying to say okay people he made your point go home we saw that took an hour just for him to tell people go home stop climbing the walls of the capital right stop trying to kill Mike Pence don't kill my vice president right so at that point he abdicated his responsibilities his constitutional responsibility to protect the country from threats within and threats without within the country and threats outside of the country so at that point the permission structure that Donald Trump presented to all these people in this country who are already part of this undercurrent that's anti-democratic thank you Andrew and I'll give you uh one minute to respond uh yeah I mean we were all watching and of course I think we were all thinking the same thing what's happened to the military I've been doing some reading on it um I don't actually agree Rebecca I think that even even Trump's Inner Circle um was shocked even Mark Meadows who is about as bad as it gets even he was shocked and was begging demanding that he called off the rioters so I think on January 6th people's spots were revealed um and I think that the institutions I mean I think in particular the military institution Mark Miley someone who really needs to be understood as being the core backbone of American democracy the the head of the general Chief of Staff so I I don't agree I think that Trump of course comes out of it looking Dreadful but most of the people around him don't for the benefit of our listeners who may not be familiar with with what you're alluding to when you say permission structure take a moment to explain that sure um so permission structure in this case is um kind of like the intellectual device the intellectual argument the giving permission to those who are ready to erupt those who already um are disinterested in our system those who are already looking for a reason or permission to now do what they've been preparing with all the guns and stuff that they've stored up for years now this person is now giving them permission or authority to do so it's a green light yes a green light okay I'd like to go to audience questions and I want to say our first question here is Pete Dominick who is host of stand up with Pete and I asked Pete Dominic who who has his that other side that serious side he's very thoughtful about these things you are so please please show them that in one of the text messages uh that we found out this week from talking points memo we found out that uh congressmen Norm was his name he he said he begged the president to declare martial law of course he spelled it wrong and a lot of we know that the Insurrection whatever you want to call it was plan for months by so many of the figures and we know that they wanted him to declare martial law so my question is for Andrew based just on the fact that they literally wanted a military coup how could it not be according to your definition which I learned tonight in existential threat well let me ask the question back you're very vague Pete that you talk about they who are you exactly in there but in all seriousness who exactly are you talking about you mentioned some Congressman you can't even remember his last name um it's exactly that's trumpian in its in its promise in its vagueness and it's a very dangerous assumption because it's simply wrong you're saying they planned who planned exactly and what exactly did they plan okay let him and I I really didn't want to have the two of you debate but Pete um I think it was well organized when there were buses and buses Charlie Kirk and so many other organizations planned funded and promoted everywhere at the date January 6 as if it was a festival in effect it was an attack okay now we are debating with the member of the audience so um I want to move on uh anybody oh please um step up to the mic and uh we'd appreciate it if you tell us your name if you're comfortable with that even if it's just your first name but we'd like to hear both thanks to Rebecca I suppose they killed Pelosi a couple other Democrats they hung them out you know right out there and uh Trump's relationship as far as I can tell with the military I mean he made fun of all the generals his relationship with the FBI he didn't have a very good relationship so what's your question and what is it and the CIA no no I seriously I need you to I know but so who is going to come to his rescue in other words and and and and okay and and to take over the government where was this supposed to come from the forest the forest that he would have needed Okay so so if the unthinkable would have happened if a lot of Democratic Leadership would have passed away and also specifically a constitutional officer was assassinated what would have happened with the military of intervene with the CIA intervene with the FBI Hannah intervened it in Trump's favor it would have been utter chaos because constitutionally you have to think about who was supposed to intervene in that moment in that moment if we're going by the Constitution then it should be the cabinet immediately voting removing all of Trump's duties and responsibilities as president and immediately removing that from them but let's just play that out that happens Pence is still in some undisclosed location really four or five stories below the capital because that's where like this top secret little place is where he was at great so now they would have sworn in him in there would have been utter chaos we now have Department of Defense trying to figure out if they could legally send troops into the streets of Washington DC they have to now talk to the mayor to make sure she gives them permission to come into the city right so it would have been so moving so many moving parts and what would have happened our enemies from outside of the Century that would have been the perfect time to attack the United States or any of our installations I don't know Russia China North Korea okay I want to go on to another question my name is darhan okay um so question for Andrea what I would be curious about if were you debating this in 20th century and right after a beer hall coach would you uh argue that beer hall push was an existential threat to Germany at that time like a year after Bingo question thank you okay how long has it taken John an hour to get to Hitler look I'm not arguing that American democracy is secure I'm not arguing that at some point in the future if there's another economic crisis that stuff happens that American democracy is guaranteed because January 6th failed but it's not the the Hitler connection is is neither here nor there in 1923 as a as our historian more reminders there was no Wall Street Crash there was no collapse of the world economy so it's unimaginable to um to logically connect the failure of the the the beer hall the the beer hall porch of 1923 with the rise of Nazism in 1933. all right next question uh Jonathan judge here from Brooklyn um my question for you is how does federalism fit into this knowing that the National Guards from multiple states were sent down in DC and tried to restore order and preserve due process on this constitutional uh ceremony how does federalism into your arguments and particularly how did that fit in and the framer's mindset about preserving democracy great and Rebecca um it's normal for states to send and have people um on alert when you have a transition of power what happens is like they can't enter into the city they can't enter into the district unless there is now an official reason to enter into the into the city thank you next question and if you can tell us your name please my name is talene and um my question is doesn't the question of existential threat ultimately hinge on whether or not Trump is held accountable for January 6 because okay that's a good question mark because the people who've been convicted thus far are foot soldiers he's The Mastermind so if he gets away with it is that a precedent that's set and isn't that what ultimately everything hinges on I'm so glad you pushed back I'm doing on that question thank you Andrew do you want to take that first and then yeah it's a good question um I I I I'm not necessarily in favor of dragging Trump back into court because I think it only creates what he wants which is more attention I think January 6th represents the end of trumpism I think in in historical terms if we want to imagine the future my guess is in 20 years that will be the last um paragraph in his political career he won't run or if he does run he's going to get trounced it was his last stand he failed and and I think that that's way more punishment than being dragged into court and being in the center of public attention which is what he wants Rebecca I think Andrew's answer would have been great if he was a private citizen because he was actually the president of the United States history is going to require for us to hold him accountable thank you do we have one more hi my name is David and my question is for Andrew um in terms of the underlying movement that that may pose a threat to democracy long term how does January 6 work as a symbol for from for for that movement in in how you view it could you repeat the question sorry I don't understand um if Junior if if there is a movement underlying which could pose a threat to American democracy then what if any any symbolism is January 6th hold for the people who are part of that move that's a great question so Marjorie Taylor green made a remark this week uh she said if she and Bannon had been arranging January 6th they would have been more effective because there would have been significantly more Bloodshed she would have made sure and and she was in all seriousness this isn't a joke and this is perhaps chilling uh not about January 6th but about the future of American democracy is that had she been running the show she would have made sure that everyone who showed up had uh was armed and was prepared to to use their weapons so I would think that one of the things it will teach future in genuine Insurrection it's people who want to destroy American democracy perhaps light green or light Bannon um is that you've got to be more organized you've got to be armed and and you've got to have a strategy you've got to figure out okay who are we going to kill uh and where we're going to take our stand because otherwise you're not going to destroy democracy you can't just go in run around shout a bit carry a Confederate flag and then expect democracy to just collapse I just want to point out the MTG literally stalks members of Congress who are also Targets on January 6 of folks who are marginalized people in our society who are now members of Congress who there were actually Maps um found of actually this is their office this is where you find them and then even the security button was removed from one of the offices to make sure that they couldn't contact the Capitol Police to let them know there was a threat inside their office so let's just be careful the MTG isn't just some cartoonish character but she is a menace so now we move on to our closing round and our closing round is simply comprised of closing statements by each of our two Debaters to summarize their points or or potentially add to them to what they've said so far Andrew since Rebecca went first for the opening round uh we're going to let you have the floor on this one so once again um you're arguing no January 6 was not an existential threat to American democracy I think it was a very good question on on on the Munich Purge because it reflects the fact that we can't see round corners we can't imagine the future and who knows what's going to happen in in 20 years maybe January 6th will seem enormously significant but at this point it seems to me as if January 6th and in 2021 reflects the the Strategic and intellectual and political bankruptcy of trump and trumpism for 60 days he tried to wreck American democracy he tried to deny the legitimacy of the American electorate and over those six 60 days there's 10 weeks he failed fundamentally he failed on every front he alienated almost everybody except for Rudy Giuliani so on January 6th a few uh sort of ragtag trumpists disorganized one-eyed uh wannabe terrorists show up in Washington DC run around have no idea of what they're doing Trump behaving like the truancy Gardener that he actually is spent his time watching television it was a it was a fiasco a farce in every sense he failed trumpism failed he's never going to get reelected again and I think from this moment it doesn't represent an existential threat but who knows in the future the gentleman who asked the question about the Munich push might well be right who knows maybe there will indeed be an American Hitler maybe a Marjorie Taylor green or a Steve Bannon will have learned from January 6th and will use it to their advantage in the future it's a chilling idea but at this point it seems like a farce at this point it was a profound shameful failure and at this point it doesn't seem to me to represent an existential threat to American democracy thank you Andrew Keane and Rebecca you get the last word I could only imagine if Andrew was narrating the Civil War he would probably be sitting on top of I don't know a Meadowland talk about wow they really move slow does it really take that long to reload up again what what are they don't have real guns what's going on wow they're here all day and I get it it might seem like a farce but just like with the Civil War it was a constitutional crisis that happened on January 6. just like the Civil War it was very emotional it was brother against brother it was families torn apart just like January 6. it was very emotional to turn on the TV and see a coup happening in America we're used to seeing coups happening around the world we are used to seeing it in movies but to actually see it happening on American soil was different it definitely impacted the American psyche but also the physicality there are a lot of lives lost that day when I think about one of the Fallen members of law enforcement his mother was on the hill last week to accept recognition for her son's service she walked past McCarthy she walked past McConnell because she saw that ever since January 6 they failed to hold the people accountable who are responsible for her son's death who are responsible for the coup against the United States and so while it's so easy to laugh at the guy who had like the weird like Viking cat carting off the speakers podium there still was a threat it's ongoing it's not just embodied in Donald Trump but now we have a whole generation of folks out there who think they have the right to do this and to repeat it wash rinse repeat so once again thank you all so much appreciate you all's time and listening and your engagement I hope we were able to have a meaningful discussion to really make you all think about whether or not American democracy is worth fighting for thank you thank you Rebecca and before I before I check in with you all one more time to see where you stand now that you've heard the arguments on the questions I just want to say that um this was a terrific conversation and the two of you brought um brought brought insight and intelligence and humor and facts and uh civility to to to to the debate that just took place and it's what we aim for at intelligence Square we love that people would come out on a rainy and rainy night to listen to this and to take part in it and to listen closely and respectfully and you have been a wonderful audience and um the real thing I want to say tonight to the two Debaters here is you did this spectacularly well so thank you very very much foreign so now I so now I'd like to ask you again your opinion by Applause to see where you stand on the question and I want to start with the undecided vote on the question was January the 6th an existential threat to American democracy are those who are undecided please clap for us okay so your numbers have definitely dwindled you some of some of the people who are undecided have now made their decision for yes or no those who would say yes our democracy was threatened existentially by January 6 would you please applaud foreign and if you feel there was not an existential threat to our democracy on January 6 could you please applaud [Applause] one other question I'd like to ask you whether you changed your mind or not did you hear an argument on the other side that actually gave you something to think about even if you were not fully convinced by it can you applaud a few areas on that all right that's that's the question that tells us that we succeeded here in getting people to think so thank you so much for that again I'm John Don Ben and we will see you next time [Music]

Channel: Open to Debate

Views: 3,022

Keywords: Intelligence Squared, IQ2, IQ2US, Intelligence Squared U.S., debate, live debate, I2, nyc, politics, conservative, liberal

Id: 4FvZ3BXPl_0

Length: 51min 55sec (3115 seconds)

Published: Fri Jan 06 2023