DEBATE: Vegan Activist Meets Irish Dairy Farmer (The Disclosure Podcast - Episode 5)

so hello and welcome back to the disclosure podcast I am your host Ed's and today is a very special podcast I'm really excited to announce that I'm enjoined in the studio by Ryan Ryan is a dairy farmer and when I announced I was doing the podcast Ryan reached out to me via email and said look you know you know I'm really interested in coming in and having a discussion with you and so I asked if he could come to London and and it just happened he could and so here we are in the studio together so thank you so much for being here Ryan I I'm really very grateful for you reaching out to me and if I could just stop asking like what compelled you to to kind of want to reach out in the first place and I was just watching a video where you're announcing your new disclosure podcast and I'm just thinking myself I've always wanted to speak to one of the big activists like I've watched you enjoy carp song and a couple more I've always wanted to UM have a conversation so I thought that would be a great way to make possible yeah if we should I mean this is one the reasons I wanted to do this podcast was to to hopefully create conversations and you know perfect I'm so happy that you're here so thank you for making the journey you know Belfast is it's not that far but it's also not that close so thank you for taking the time to do this so I guess the first question will the first like round of questions would be kinda can tell me a little bit about about what you do you live in Northern Ireland is that right and you work on two dairy farms is that right yeah so I live just outside about fast and a small sort of time called kind of just outside of it and then I started working on dairy farms when I was about 12 a neighbor of mine and I got a job with him and I've been working there ever since and then white September or maybe October I got another job on a begger dairy farm which is about 20 minutes away from me and I started working on it so been working on data from for what five years yeah and what are the herd sizes on both those farms so the first one I start going started working on is milk in about 40 cars the second farm that I'm more is milking 200 it's interesting and so which it which you know what Anna man I wanna watch this but which farm do you prefer working on I probably prefer on the 40 I want yes zero me and right and I've just been there for longer and there are all Jersey guys whereas the other ones here for Asians Holsteins I prefer the we jerseys well in that temperament you may know yeah there they don't give as much milk thoroughly bit smaller and they're just easier to work with they're nice and relaxed and them yeah waiting them sounds when you say easier to work with what what do you mean by that well um they're just easier to handle because they are much smaller and they wouldn't be it and like when you bring them into the parlor they just be quiet whereas them the phrasings would be hitting their heads and trying to get food out of the feeders knew they'd just be a lot probably wouldn't say a lot more curious but just a lot more hyper Shawna do you out do you ever find it dangerous working with with the cows because obviously they are big and they are big animals and with bills definitely you need to be careful and they can be dangerous because at the end of day they are animal so a lot of them will act on instinct mm-hmm so um yeah but so far so good never had I mean really about NJ zoning and that's good they've all been pretty good for me and with you have Bulls on the farms as well so am I'm small one there's just one bull and the big one yeah is just one both who and what's the the but the Bulls purposes is for breathing rate in yeah and so you use presumably a I on both farms no um we don't use a on a small farm and they did you say oh and a big fun line number there for that because I'm just sort of milking and I don't really agree with her I am on a small farm the bowl is for breeding purposes because he can - outwards I'm the bigger farm I think he's a bit of AI because the boat can't do 200 cows no definitely need a couple so take me through well if we if we do like the small farm first yeah so the the the bullet is brought into a pen with a with a cow who is ready he was fertile I guess is the word and then they just procreates yeah yeah well um it's never really sat up to be honest because cars are always together so um he just sort of doesn't anyone son am that farm that I would that first fund I work on it is and that high-tech so we're never really jacking and you know like scan on them and all we just sort of the farmer work because he's he's an older mom and he's quite wise you know we just started he can't alia Bhatt them they're never really put in a pan running only time that would be done would be maybe the try cause who you are am coming up to carving and maybe if one of them needed served or one was up there that shouldn't mean up Larry we might move the bill up there and let him go ahead and on the on the bigger farm how does that process work well the bells in with a set of cars and then the other set or a honey okay so the AI guys would come in and they're in quite often you decide to see the van I've never and really took much notice of it and because I don't really agree with AI although I do you see the benefits sometimes because I know em AI can I have sacked seamen so you can get female cars which stops the killing of the bug out any but it's not a very nice process I'd only you and say we need to get it know when you say don't agree but you mean you don't agree but from like an ethical perspective yeah just sort of the way it's all handled you know I just think it's just sort of mean let that happen marginally you know yeah I mean II's II on the car well yeah I think we can probably all agree on them in and as you probably know I think one of the one of the one of the points of dairy farm and often vegans point out is the the artificial insemination you know and they say it's not consensual and it the you know for anyone listening it doesn't necessarily know the process the process is is quite grim you know they get the semen from the bull that's often I guess them by hand or by some sort of machinery but it's a it's so I don't know it's it's a creepy thing almost isn't it for a no identifies the vet or the farmer or someone will will acquire the semen from the ball you know we can kind of use our imaginations probably just to work that one out and then the semen will go nice you know to preserve it the AI team where the vet will come into the farm the person who was doing the insemination but put a glove on their arm and they put their arm inside the cow's anus and they hold her cervix in place with the lining of the anus then get the semen and you know through some sort of syringe catheter thing they inject the semen inside the the cervix of the cow so you know it's a very invasive procedure it's not one I'm sure the cows would enjoy you know we agree on that I guess the issue is if we're producing enough dairy to meet demand there has to be a system in place that is reliable that means there's a consistent turnover and you of new calves so the farmers are consistently producing enough milk to make money and so for an industry to be profitable on the scale it it you know it's at it's probably the only way to maintain er I mean what what do you think do you agree or disagree well like on a small farm we would get quite a lot of those cows um but he wouldn't really raise even if he did get female cows Whedon reason not much it's very expensive that swing with AI it is quite expensive so it is for the bigger farms like I know farms of a hundred herd size or eating herd size all right mr. Badal still use bows mhm mhm yeah for the bigger farms for them to be wasn't making a profit they would definitely use it although um like we don't we don't kill any of our bull calves no we just run them on for beef or raise them for and sound them on once they get the made you know so you tell them to auction markets or you have people come here people would buy them but sometimes we won't take them to an auction and Salman so I guess like as you said you said I know we don't we don't kill the bull calves ourself but I guess in a way you still sell them on to be killed and in the long run so even though you don't directly kill them by the fact that they're produced because of what you do they're still killed because of of what you do if that makes sense but but they will be killed for a purpose it obviously I mean this is obviously what the purpose is but but tell me now what is the purpose of why we kill the animals em for what they give us their products and need this main thing they're real that's kinda normally Roseville but it's you know it's a bit it's not that not like it used to be so to speak but yeah it's used for the product that yours yeah and when you when you say give us it's for me it's it's an interesting I think language is really important and when we use words like give it's almost like it's a mutual offering I guess the way I would phrase it is for the things that we take from them do you think that they willingly give us meat and and flesh and even and even milk you know or do we take that yeah interesting because we don't really know what the annals are thinking that much for them I knew I would probably died they offer offer us a head for them it's sort of what we we do yeah and I guess the question of like it's what we do I guess is do we have to do we have to do it um I would say yes for nutritional purposes I know you'll probably disagree um environment definitely all right that's interesting all right so um from let's steal I guess the nutrition one me you know protein milk calcium you know probably you're gonna like vitamin D and things like that as well I mean I guess the question is is it exclusively from these products so can we get them from plant-based sources and you can get other from family source bar vitamin D you can get D 2 or B Nova Maddie's the sunshine vitamin and in the UK regardless where we dairy or not we should all be supplementing vitamin D anyway yeah you know we can get supplemented soy milk and stuff be happy I'm sorry and but then I don't think that it plant-based products are as neutral as dense of nutrients and collectively you probably be a lot more plant-based foods than what you could get from milk or say if you don't like red meat it's quite high on mm-hmm when you look at the plump is like plants that are high now and it's they're high but they're not as dense we'd have to eat a lot more and plant quite fibrous so if you're eating you're gonna feel filler and it's harder do that many nutrients you know from yeah I mean yeah I think you are right and saying that a lot of these products maybe contain higher levels of certain things I mean eat the red meat and iron thing of course is you know there's no denying that red meat has lots of iron in and the end you know in the interest of fairness the the thing about iron from from animal based sources is its heme iron right and from plant-based sources it's non heme iron and you know there are arguments that heme iron is is better obtained from the body than on him but the other alternative to it with the non heme is that it's better absorbed when you have a good vitamin C and so on when combined a villain C is it creates a better absorption process in the body and the plant-based sources of iron often a coupled with with vitamin C we look at you know broccoli you know you know green leafy vegetables or are often an example of that and you know I would argue that it's still easy to obtain all the things that we need to get from a plant-based diet but even if we say it even if we say it's not and we said you know it's it's it's a little bit harder and you have to eat maybe a hundred grams more beans to get the same protein as you is you would from one steak and so you've got to be a little bit more of certain things to get the same levels that and I would say it's probably some nothing more than inconvenience to us do you think that inconvenience then justifies taking take an animal's life if it's if it is something as simple as I okay well you have to have some kale and a smoothie to make sure you're getting the calcium you need in the day or something just oh that justifies taking their life and that alone probably doesn't justify things like but I think there's a lot more that plays in debt than just inconvenience like if you look at and obviously plants are grown here but not everything you eat is grown here so you know your are non-food miles and then we like local economy now it's affected because obviously export an important TS to know and other people think it's cheaper factor it is a big factory know people they enjoy food for artists yeah it's I think it's the biggest biggest reason I think you know people will point at nutrients and stuff but the bottom line I think is for many people it is taste and and taste is an interesting thing we'll come on to that but you also mentioned the environments you say we're from a traditional perspective it's you potentially it's a necessity or or maybe it's not a necessity but there are you know factors in there that make it you know potentially worthwhile doing what about for an environmental perspective what what is it about dairy farming or indeed any any formal animal farming sheep or even pig and chicken obviously the environmental impact of that's probably a lot more debatable but let's say kind of sheep and and daring and cattle farming what are the environmental benefits of that well I'm all by grass-fed so two farms were Connor grass-fed animals outside and I think it's pretty essential of the ecosystem for grass-fed basis like I know em to stop 2016 was that Agriculture's 10% of all UK's greenhouse mason's mm-hmm but then when you look at the land mass agriculture takes up 70% of all the key kale and so if you're in the respective businesses or seventeen percent of greenhouse gases and they probably don't even make up a quarter of demand oh definitely not yeah so when you look at in that reissue is it really that much for something that's taking up so much time and it's feeding the country I like grassland like grazing land that we have you can grow a crop on and and if we were to stop dairy farm and stopping guys and the carbon in the soil would be lost the organic fertilizer again we lost and that land would just lie dormant just kiddin grow it's too rocky or too rough like nowadays if we were to go vegan it's it we'd be under too much pressure not to have a famine or not to have a field crop because we are relying on it dad if we can find right growing land whatever do in Bali yeah I mean I'm gonna kind of try I may forget some point so please pull me up on them if I do but I kind of so the first thing was was looking at kind of local and air miles and stuff and and I and I I do actually really agree view and one thing that concerns me a little bit sometimes vegans who say I do vegans bad for the environment but you know and then we are you know buying products they're taken from South America or something and so I do think that we have to look at where products come from even if they're fruits and vegetables and grains and such as well don't think that simply because something is a plant based product it's therefore you know wonderful for the environment I'd make the argument it's still better and you know New Zealand lamb for example I think like 40 percent of the lamb meat in this country is New Zealand lamb and the air miles and something like that are completely atrocious but of course you're not advocating for that it's more of just a general point so the local kind of air miles aspect of it I think plays a part in terms of fossil fuel usage and and unlike an environmental factor but at the same time you have to look at kind of this system as a whole and greenhouse gas emissions are one part of the problem with animal agriculture me failures I think often people use me finish like the be-all and end-all of the argument we're not sure think it's just one component of the argument and it doesn't represent all of the problems with it within the industry and part of that problem is land usage as well he's and I don't know this statistic referring to you so I'm not going to try and dispute the ten percenter tist ik you set up as I say I'm not I don't know the source for it but even if it is true it as you say it was at 70% of agriculture 70% of land in this country is used for agriculture and you're right in saying that some of that land and maybe the some land your authority would it be suitable for arable farming and so it's it's suitable for animal family but not arable but my argument would be that environmentally it would the best thing to do with that London is not necessary r animals or even to produce you know to put you know manure on it necessarily but it's it's to leave that land alone and in doing so what we can do is the natural lands will replenish so if you look at the UK in general I guess it's because 70% of the land is used for agriculture it's just completely flat and historically the UK was it was a really vibrant with woodlands and forest lands and you know a huge diversity of animals you know deer and I think probably wild boar and such maybe back in the day I don't know about that so much but it was a really vibrant and landscape and due to agriculture we've wiped out so much of of that environment and so I for the environment and for the purpose of like you say carbon absorption you know and the absorption of greenhouse gas emissions surely the best thing to do would be just to let that land grow let that land replenish because even if we swap to a vegan diet we're gonna have to increase the level of certain fruits and vegetables we produce you know I'm potatoes maybe turnips um you know I'm thinking of traditional British produce is you said leeks a leo's something used to produce so you know in a vegan world will probably have to produce more of certain crops and mainly vegetables and fruits but overall the amount of land will need to do so will come down so considerably that we can let so much of the agricultural land just just replenish and do you think that would be better for the environment than then rearing animals just for the sake because you can't rip you know you can't produce plants on on that land um I'm not sure because I think animals probably do benefit from a lot of grassland at the minute because you know we don't treat our grass as much as crops are treated and them still be wildflowers and something matters I caused a drink from water that would lie you know in the bottom of the field and and there's a whole new movement on hedgerows you know in Ireland where Maude for hedges yeah I see I know the new way that subsidies are working on farms when we leave the EU or to do with what you do on your farm for the environment and it's just could you I mean I'm not upset including Lamar could you maybe talk a little bit more about what will happen with subsidies when we leave the European Union yeah so I've only heard a few things with the minute subsidies from eer to do with how much land she actually owned okay and that is because they see it as you have more land to take care of you'll get more money but when we leave I think we can still get you subsidies for two years maybe okay and then I'll come back to whatever the UK said some pissant the minute they are talking about farmers will get more for what they do for the environment on their farm so let's say you have a failed em of crops if you grow a wild sort of headland around it yeah of just wild plants and you know get money you know if you're planting trees hedges and another Assam because there's a farm near us that actually Riptide eluded hedges and they actually got their subsidies cut because they say those bad things so it's to try veg farmers to do more filling I mean I've cost this that seems like a good idea yeah if I interrupted you for something you were going to send and please do you say about another thing with the grass-fed issue is no I think like ninety percent of the animal products we we consume our factory farmed and of course that the levels of factory farming in sheep and beef and and I guess to some degree dairy has significantly reduced compared to chicken and pig consumption of course chickens so that the animals me most by far factory farm and most by far consumed but even if we even if we took it becomes difficult cuz it of course you could have grass I mean it would have been grass fed pigs you know because that's not what they consume but you could have outdoor red pigs but if we were to outdoor really animals to the same kind of level of the same comparable level that grass-fed dairy or that grass-fed cattle means with pigs and chickens if 70 percent of the land is already used for agriculture how how will we meet people's demand that currently exists in a system that you're potentially championing with so little land left to utilize you see Dada is the thing meat consumption all would have to reduce just as it was at the minute it is astonishing levels because people don't want to eat bad for those people don't even thank you yeah people go into me okay I've seen just by me I think there's nothing there and it is pretty mad like I don't know implicated at all mmm that aptly don't forget factory from neither and um in order for us to be able to it would have to go back to the way it was you know people's would have to drop their meat consumption dramatically well maybe not dramatically but back to the way it was like you know me I suppose and stuff yeah I think it's the problem with that would be if we if we then if we drop the supply you know the reason animal products are so cheap and you can go into KFC and get you know chicken burger or whatever is such cheap prices because it's so easy to produce you know and breed and ultimately killing chickens but if we if we were to then reduce the amount that we supply because we'd be rare them in that way the price of these products will go up and it becomes again somewhat of a almost a class issue in the sense of when you say about going back to the way things used to be well that was the people who had money and were wealthy could afford these products and those who couldn't weren't able to and so for me part of their issue with that is is it becomes a financially it it becomes a situation or a system which is which is based purely on people's personal finances and that that also doesn't not that I think it's you know the animals the ones who I think get the raw deal of course in any of these situations but it but it also seems fair to that only the rich people can then enjoy the products that you know the poor people would still like to enjoy but but can't because of the economical factors and yeah I guess a price of advice would right rise but then I would say I would not think a vegan diet is that cheap either you know with them bringing out genetically engineered you know they're able to grow meat sort of from sales as a lab grown me I'm sure that wouldn't be very cheap you know when I first come sign and fruit and vegetables aren't that cheap at offseason and them so yeah I think both ways food price would increase but I think if food prices were to increase and we were still farming locally the economy would increase and sort of pay an increase you know you know I would hope yeah it's challenging around I guess with the with the fruit and vegetable prices I mean lab-grown me I don't really advocate really that I don't it's I don't like the idea of it I guess the thing is when theoretically it'll be expensive the beginning but it'll probably become cheap really quickly because it's just produced without any need for crops and water or a human labor really or anything like that but we're fruits and vegetables and things like that I guess one of the problems that some of these products become more expensive is to do with the fact that subsidies and put into healthier you know when I say health I mean fruit and vegetable foods and and so if the what I would like to see is you know as as meat consumption drops and if you know the way that we see the future going it has to drop for you know in both of our minds I suppose the price of it will go up and the subsidies that we will put into animal-based farming if they were pointed arable farming and plant-based farming it would bring the products sorry the price of these products dramatically and I think that that to me has to be the crux of where we we look moving forward to make it that you know it's not the 99 pence chicken burger that's like the scene is the staple of like a cheap person's diet but actually it's it's the fruits and vegetables and and even things like blueberries and strawberries which you know are expensive for really like 2.54 a pun or strawberries and Sainsbury's is not I don't think that's good but we could dramatically bring the price to these foods down if we just reallocated subsidies in a more even if just a more equal way between all types of farming I feel like I'm animal farmers with some reason get a better deal than the arable farmers and I don't I don't that doesn't strike me as fair anyway you know why would I just I don't that's that's my feelings about it but yeah I think environmentally that there's a lot of there's a lot of kind of different issues at play and you know globally animal farming presents a huge problem if you look at the US and South America but one thing I'm really really cautious of is that you know we're looking you've probably have cowspiracy right right and yeah right and what's your opinion on it and I do think it is mainly focused on the big factories far right and I didn't agree with that obviously because and I'm not photograph oh yeah it actually harms yeah yeah and I think one thing we have to be really careful of is when we advocate something especially environmentally but also ethically that we're not saying oh well you know these farmers in Britain you know they're not the same as Tex and Cal farmers they're importing soya from Brazil you know and I'm not gonna hold you personally responsible for soya farming you know in the cattle farming industry necessarily in in Brazil and I mean I'm sure some sorry exported to this country as well but at the same time I think it's very important that we keep the the the arguments kind of solidified and in terms of what's relevant to where we are and so you know in this country we're looking at you know deforestation and woodlands and things like that we're still looking at me phone emissions you know so environmental is still issues and there's been some studies that came out recently that look to these problems particularly in the UK and they've been published in some really credible journals and one of them was published in a journal called science one of them was published in their journal called nature and it was published in The Lancet and they agreed that the glow shift or plant-based diet was necessary to combat some of the problems of climate change never you seen have you seen some of these these studies that have been released and think I heard of the one you were talking about in your BBC interview so yeah and then but then I was also looking at ones that are complete opposite well then the opposite thing is saying that beef and there's one about beef that I was reading then spun it out on my phone was talking about how they can't find that that like animals cost being blamed mm-hmm for this big for this big greenhouse gas in this big environment sort of but like when you didn't at what else we're doing far the farming like a car yeah and there's rocks with Laden nine million nine point ninety million cars in the UK mm-hmm just in the dairy herd or in or in the beef that's okay um so they're producing I think it's something like a ton of carbon 1.2 tonnes or something poor guy yeah so that's somewhere around 10 million tonnes per year whereas a car on our is produced 150 grams of carbon per kilometer and an average of 15,000 kilometers a year that's 2 tonnes two tonnes of which which gas are we looking at well that would become doctor but me thean um meeting is a bit lower than carbon dioxide but when it's put into equipment the damage it does to greenhouse gas it's around 10% just as them so they say the the methane has over it I think it's over a 10-year period 86 times the global warming potential of co2 so me fame from an environmental perspective is worse than co2 I mean we can all agree that they're driving cars isn't is not great but it doesn't diminish the responsibility that animal agriculture plays and like I said there's all the other factors as well land usage and you know and if we equate and it's it's not just me Fame fit it's not just cows versus cars necessarily it's the the argument of for grass-fed beef you have to level potentially forest lands what trees do best is absorb co2 release oxygen so you have to equate that aspect of well how much co2 is for how much co2 has not been absorbed as a consequence of clearing acres of land to produce grass-fed beef for example so I think there's there's other factors at play that don't make it a like-for-like necessarily although I mean one thing I'm really cautious of with the environmental side of things is not to say veganism is the answer to all of these problems if everyone was vegan we could drive big gas guzzlers and consume plastics and you know buy clothes from Primark on that I mean we've got address all these things you know part of that I said before is where we exploit fruits and vegetables from and of course power that's travel as well but I don't think that that diminishes these are aspects diminish the fact that being vegan is the single simplest thing we can do in our lives I mean some of us rely on cars but if we've got Tesco's and Sainsbury's and stuff we don't rely on on steaks and cheese is you know we don't need brie to live or you know camembert or red Leicester but many of us do need certain other things that contribute negatively to the environment to get to get by what do you think yeah do agree that some of the products aren't essential to life but then if you look at what's really into the life it would just be you know I'm sure you'd like to eat nice vegan food Yeah right but am i think that the agriculture industry is constantly developing new ways for the reduce these emissions like it's literally like like for deforestation is very hard to be very hard to confirm mission without you have them to plant again a certain number like that say 85% of what you cut time would have to be replanted maybe in a different area or along your hedges or whatever if you were making a field and nutritionists are also constantly working with animal feeds that to figure out a way to feed cars which allows them to produce last meeting yeah with em just with what they're eating but it's it's such it's like short it's like little steps when we could just take one big step if you know if the United Nations reports it to be believed that we have 12 years and I can I really hope these a dramatic I think there's so much at stake that we kind of have to take them if some seriousness and if that is the case then like little steps just don't seem to solve the problem it's time for us to take big action now and and you know planting some hedgerow to make way for the fact that you've cleared forest lands to raise you know me feynman emitting you know cows that that doesn't seem like a good enough compromise to the situation the severity of the situation is kind of like you know played a plasterer when you've got big gaping wound it's like a tiny solution for something that's not actually going to help in the long run yeah but I don't think they've become vegan or is the world going vegan now whatever would solve it because like when you look at things like avocados even coming from I think it's a whole transport system too and grasslands I do believe still are necessary especially if you were to take she bought enlightened you know grass house four stages of growing and when it gets to last hit it dies obviously and then it sort of just rots away in the grind that's a really long process mm-hmm and if we don't have the natural herbivores that we did you know if you go back thousands of years different naturally Rome and once they've eaten the grass tine they would move to another pasture in the right egg herds of Buffalo and stuff yeah and no grass would sort of be left because once it dies it has to rot no grass can come up until it's fully on rotted away and that would be like year to year process I do believe that these wild Gardens you know if you're talking about leaving grass to grow mm-hmm let's say honeybees okay and because I believe that if you were to move to a vegan world the honeybees with Daphne suffer he was like we see plenty of bees run our pharmacy and I don't know if you've ever seen food incorporated of June you have oh I saw it years ago I don't remember but it was one of the first ones I watched but there's a farmer on it conscious Alton and he is a very big advocate of what's called the permaculture sort of when I using everything and growing a ring but his farm was fine to have nine types of honeybee and he was grass feeding everything and I could hear to move to crop they might have chemicals that are gonna be used more you are right say no we don't have the herbivorous animals we don't have the predatory animals nothing part of that is because we've cleared so much land that we driven so many animals to the to the point of extinction or even or even beyond then if we were to allow the land that we don't need which that study that I cite in the BBC just when he was listening she's not who's not aware of it this study that I cited that that we both kind of referred to was it was a five-year study by the University of Oxford they looked at 40,000 farms in 119 countries and is regarded as has been the most comprehensive study ever look at the relationship between farming in the environment and it was published in in this journal called science and anyway it said that globally if the world shifted to a plant-based diet we could reduce the amount of farmland oh sorry agricultural lands your farmland by 75% so you know in the UK it might not be as high as 75% you know it might be higher a minute probably isn't higher but let's say it was only 50% that's 50% of land that we don't need anymore that we can just allow to replenish and of course it may take longer for maybe grass to to go through the natural seasons of growing and dying and then becoming fertilizer and replenishing the soils with those nutrients but there's still a natural process I think we have to hit the reset button and sometimes it takes a while for that reset to happen but it's it's important for it to happen just to kind of stabilize that road that we're going down and just maybe bring us to a halt in a way and you know I don't I don't deny again for a second that you know there are certain elements of what you do in terms of farming that contribute and help in some environmental ways such as the honeybees for example but that doesn't mean it's the only way to help honeybees and it doesn't mean that that negates all the negatives of it as well you know a couple of positives here and there don't doesn't negate for all the the huge swathes of negatives avocados yeah let's not let's not let's not ship avocados from Mexico Peru in California I'm I'm on board for that one as well by the way and I just think you talk about it I was like all these these couple of positives but I do but genuinely believe there are like the positives do where the negatives in em the way we're moving forward like mmm if we did stop breeding causing the existence and then we stopped using the grasslands it would be so hard to be allowed to just let them grow you know I believe was a growing population to grow and demand for housing in everything mm-hmm it would just be turned to building and we would start you know like if you like a force and stuff there's not many forests no that aren't needed to be looking after no well they are we need to protect the Moors and I believe these grasslands would sort of have to be looked at today by some ants well maybe just by in the same way that forest lands are protected you know they should just be counsel or even government kind of regulations in place that they'll just mean leave this alone and doesn't mean that people can't own the land and you know maybe they can be given I think subsidies maybe are given or something's given to some farmers they just leave the land so maybe we just leave it alone and they the amount of extra housing will need it still doesn't equal seventy percent of UK land you know I mean yes a little bit but maybe two three four percent but more importantly the growing population thing is how are we gonna feed even more people with these products I mean if we agree that it's not sustainable with factory farming and it's not ethical with factory farming and therefore the only in your eyes ethical ways is to do grass-fed animal products are out or completely out durian animal products and that's you know the only way that you believe it for it to be maybe sustainable in many ways how do we then feed even more people we were product that we've already agreed has to come down significantly and not worry about price is shooting up and all these other issues and the - there comes a point where it just it doesn't seem to add up in my head how we can have more people but produce less products and not have all these other issues with pricing and people being disgruntled surely the world just needs to go towards a plant-based diet even with even with the way you think as well well I wouldn't say that because I think the same way when I think about the world movement towards a plant-based diet like anything okay oh we managed to grow all them crops how do we have the land how would we deal with price you know it sort of works both way in my mind I just believe in a balanced moderate and I'd like I don't believe in drinking gallons of gallons of milk no no you know I don't believe in eating tons and tons of me I just mean you know 70% plant yes 30 percent meat or animal products like and I do believe there's two shorter extremes in the best way moving forward would just be sort of meet in the middle so would you say that's like a flexitarian style thing and you find out like a flexitarian movement in that way I feel like a betrayal almost the same mm-hmm I think it's good to try things okay you know I wouldn't say you have to mean mean every day obviously not um my brother the sort of flex time for a while that happen meet once a week that's tell a good where they enjoy new nutrition and the taste and the health of it and still have a sort of good you know it's still helping the environment in a way because you're reducing your consumption of that much meat um but I don't think cutting it out and cutting milk and eggs and it you know like I just can't see it in a mask eel yeah really solved in the problem yeah I would like to maybe we can move the move it on a little bit just so we don't get to harm for the same thing but I think and and we'll let your sponsors I don't want to be like let's move it on here's my final point but I do think one thing to bear in mind is that because we are producing so many animals and we key as you say we have nine million cows and a lot of those cars may be grass-fed some of them won't be some of them will be fed you know I mean a lot of silage I suppose which is you know grass exactly but also we have a lot of animals and globally especially that are not consuming necessary grass and salad you know a growing sorry are eating things like maize and wheat and barley and soya and foods that we that we grow and so if we slice a conservative 56 billion land animals in this country around 1 billion land animals that are all being fed something you know the amount cars and stuff a very small percentage of those animals being killed you know that the ones they've been killed the most the chickens and the pigs and are the ones who have actually found and fed what we I guess would say quote-unquote unnatural foods perhaps this is why I think even in a vegan world we have plenty of land already and we produce there's enough crop growing land that we can utilize anyway simply because of the fact that we're having to feed these animals food to begin with and there's also vertical farming that many of you heard of vertical farming yeah or just in big warehouses and it uses 95 percent less water there's no pesticides herbicides you do have to worry about like invasive species like crop deaths you know animals and crop deaths that argument as well that seems like a really good way moving forward and so maybe that'll be something that in the future is is kind of great because then we'd have to worry we can use even less land but produce even more than a don't have to worry about them you know air miles or travel miles because you could produce any product he wanted in any country because it's all self con kind of in these buildings so you know if we're worried about avocados where you can grab a Kardos in the warehouse in London with vertical farming and all of a sudden it's like the best of both worlds it's almost like having your vegan cake and eating it and I'm a little bit hesitant to like get too excited about vertical farming but I do think that's a really great option moving forward I think that for me with the growing population on the ground demand for food it it probably is a good way but I wouldn't be so keen in because it's like I'm not a big fan of genetic modified crops or crops that are grown inside you know you sort of want them to be getting natural sunlight and natural rayon everything else and I do agree that it would be hard to do that for the world that would be my point and that's why probably with me I think a couple of many few people like wouldn't be they came and their crops being grown inside um and then the argument you have about cars being fed me isn't stuff well you know there's only so many products that people that you can make with me is like well me is is actually corn before it so we can't eat me is but like that's why we grow a lot of me is in this country sort of because we can't grow corn right on and that wow that's why a lot of Quan comes from Americans in other countries hotter so we harvest and we see in turquoise and but the land could be used it could be used for other crops but then there's only so there's only so much cereals and all that we do feed the guys that people the products you can make for them like we don't have eaten corn constantly yeah so you know notion or should we advocate for that but the land is is there to use and it's not like we have to eat the same products that have been been grown on that land necessarily yeah I mean if you're happy to move on maybe I passed the environment because it's a fascinating thing and I'd blood I know I do worry about talking about it too much and and please if you've got anything you want to say that any questions just button like I'm not a friend offended by people being burning but I guess let's go back to maybe what happens on the file we talked a little bit insemination and I guess the the the process after artificial insemination is there's the pregnancy the gestation and then there's the birth and as I say on both farms the bay babies are taken from their mothers or even on the smaller one as well yeah so they have that collar strim which is the first feeds with the antibodies is it how to pronounce again last time okay ill astronomical ever whichever way is and which is basically the first feed the first milk which isn't fit for human consumption but importantly has all the antibodies that the newborn calf needs and without it they will probably you know most often they die and so after the the first food how often how old are they when they're taken away 24 to 72 hours mmm yeah it depends on small farms were left for about a day or two and new farm day really pretty pretty similar and how do you feel about that you said that a I you didn't feel very comfortable about what about what about the separation aspect do you like that I suppose and I suppose it isn't you know the nicest thing when you first are there and you're like God the mother has been taken away but a lot of factors are playing did like I see stage produced too much milk that one calf could not drink all the mugs he has and that is due to selective breeding but that happened it's been happening for years and we can't change some so I've never advocated leaving a dairy cow with a calf because she probably she probably loses her quarters and then she if she was never cow began there'd be no milk for that curve and she'd get six you know I see the NOI carbs tend to get sick very quickly and they do need a lot sterile conditions that is necessary to get that colostrum into them sometimes let's head cause others too low and the cow can can bring it on that's when we have to come in and take the colostrum and then feed it by hundr the calves um and also cause her very careless like I've seen cause near stand on the calves or some of them reject them some of them are aggressive towards them someone new interest and I suppose it is sod it you know you think oh that's uh but um if they're left for too long that's when they'll really get attached but the cars like people say cars roar I'd maybe uncertain frontspin our farm to college maybe it's the breeding them but they're never too bad and you know too bad what does that mean well like they might be there might be there might be we've been awed you can sort of tell it or we bit off something they'd sort of know that something's wrong or they know that sometimes me wrong they say wrong well let's pick yeah it's but yeah it's important we say wrong and Daphney wrong or like something's not right to them or something's not funny but they think they don't go on and on and on it's like one day in they're back to normal mmm and it is necessary I believe necessary in in in in in for farms to survive and that's David Farr's an essay for both of their health do you think the fact that we we've select because we the your eyes and you know cows in in farms do have to be milked because we selectively bred them to produce so much so much more but that doesn't justify the industry it just proves how far the industry has gone and so you know I think the argument of well you know cows Hatter's it's almost sometimes people say to me or the cows walk themselves to the milking parlor and it's like well I'm not surprised because they need something because I'm sure that that that must hurt is probably are not very nice sensation needing to be milked in that way so the notion of like something doesn't mean they're willing participants in their own exploitation necessarily it's just it's a means to relieve some suffering so I mean Jimmy let's go back to that but I do want to just focus a little bit more on the separation aspect of it you know cows are a maternal they form you know matriarchal herds which is quite unique you know we think about you know male dominance or whatever but they come female like matriarchal herds and so they are primarily driven by maternal and herds a familial so families and they spend the whole lives together so that family bond is is very strong within a within a cattle herd so to speak and so maybe yes that the the elements of grieving may not be so what's the way so obvious as they are in some farms I mean you know sometimes I'm sure they do I mean the gentleman on the podcast last week which I think you said you listened to he said that the cows were a lot more visibly shaken up on the farms he worked out and you know I'm sure differs farm to farm depending on how it's done when Liam when the cars are taken how does the farmer take the company have you ever taken that have you did you pick them up do you carry them to drag them with them no we just lift them usually it's not really that far to the calf and either lifted or satin like like a trolley you know pushed if it's a far distance on the bigger farm sometimes we would never drag or you know you see some of these intensive farms that early grab them and him dragging them and not only giving a cab but sort of because you know we want them to be thanked you don't want to lose a calf because it's it's money to a farmer at the end of the day you know you're losing the calf you're losing money that you could potentially get for that calf or you're losing and you know it is a product and some it's an animal it is money at the same time like if you um if you're dragging a car button it gets sick you're gonna have veterinary bells you're gonna have a ring so we try to carry them that's why we want to separate them keep them in a sterile environment ensure they're getting what they need to be healthy and to be okay do you mean so you said the reason that you don't drag them is because it's potentially money lost rather than you think that it's wrong to do so well it's completely wrong like it's not just money obviously like I would never want to hurt not on whoa I would never we don't beat animals but you see a paradox I never wanna hurt an animal but their money to be made and we killed them at the end we kill them but I would never want to torture an animal we take their life quickly and it is upsetting but it's something that um if you're gonna eat meat you have to be able to look the animal in the eye and accept you know I don't know if you've ever heard of a farmer and sort of youtuber as well from America Justin Rhodes I think I know the name but I'm not familiar with his content necessarily yeah II like a homestead sort of thing I've got cows and chickens right I probably have seen similar stuff and stuff but like he would be quite emotional when it comes to having to kill an animal that was his but he would still say it can be justifiable for feeding his family's self-sustainable um unlike some of his videos he's crying but he would tell you you know why he's doing it and he would completely be able to come to terms with it seems crazy about to do if it's even you use the word upsetting well if it's if something was upsetting that for me that that signals that there's something not right there you know if if for me if something was a necessity and it was morally justifiable I I wouldn't find it upsetting necessarily to but I find it's an interesting wood and the fact that he cries I mean yeah it just just don't do it you know like we have sanctuaries just why'd you use the word upsetting um because death isn't happy you know it's true it's not a happy thing but I don't think we can but not happy for us or for the animal who is sort of you know it's a necessity for cyber I think life is possible without death of course not nowhere and you know even with animals when you look at them they're hardly happy when they kill they they know they have to and they did and I know that it's a good product and I obviously believe in the environmental obscene a factory for him and I believe in and I believe they're killed in the most least brutal way but you say the least this is nothing least brutal its though its but they store an almost an acknowledgment that it is brutal it's just it could be worse and just because something could be worse doesn't mean it's moral or acceptable as it is yeah but you know stunning and killing and you know it's like putting the card asleep okay but even even I think I feel that's a little bit disingenuous in the sense if we know that you know they're putting these trucks in trailers and taken to a slaughterhouse and you know and they're put in these little the stun pens right I mean if you've been in a ok so that you know they put in those stun boxes and then you know the bolt will put in the head and that process is terrifying for them and even if it is when the bolts in maybe that's the last thing of life they have but up until that point and even and even if we take the best case scenario it's all it's it's lovely and you know the farmer just gently cradles the animals as they pass on you know to wherever they go next but we still have value in their life and would still rather live their life than be killed don't you disagree I mean surely like if they were granted a choice and that choice was been killed you know you're right in saying that death is just as much a part of life as anything else and in fact death is so important to life I mean everything and everyone must die a man of course but that fact alone doesn't justify taking life in the sense of that doesn't justify us killing each other or even killing you know a line in the wild or a dolphin in the ocean or a dog on the street we can't justify murder of humans or murder of animals by saying well they will one day die and everything needs and everyone needs to die yes but then I wouldn't look at an animal in the same way I would look at me you you know I wouldn't I wouldn't place them on that high pedestal I'm not I wouldn't call myself an animal worshipper I mean I you know but you don't need to you can still acknowledge in your eyes that humans are very different level to other animals but this doesn't justify taking their life but for for us to eat them for us to get that nutritional product I think it does just that even if we don't have to but um it's the easiest and obviously the way I think the most amount of any way when we say easiest I mean you've got a you know we talked earlier about how like it's it can be dangerous working with cows you know we've gotta breathe them in we've got a pet spend money we've got to take land it takes time or so we're talking about ease I mean it's probably a lot easier just to just to grow some you know some crops so that they don't have the worry that don't eat the veterinary bills or the antibiotics or any of these issues so we talk about ease is probably the hardest ways of getting on nutrients well it's okay crop sir I think harder sometimes you know animals obviously and I think they sort of they do a lot of the work themselves wherever the crop here you know an autumn of grows or there's a crop you're constantly watching you're constantly grow and it an animal they take these nutrients from the grass they can convert them and you know things that we can't make ourselves and that's where we got them you're we can get the nails I like weight counting grass you know a lot of people would say that what we can eat other plants yeah but um like I know a lot of people we think that animals products high in cholesterol but then there's two different types class well yeah the good and the bad that we produce and about that we actually need cholesterol from animals because if you're eating in an animal-based diet your body it makes as much class role as it needs to do to your diet so if you were to cut all that out we also get dietary cholesterol from animals and you know like when I was talking to Christina that'd be it I've just already context um Ryan saw Navy and in Belfast as an activist I know called Christie and he had a big on conversation with her sorry carry on she would say to me egg yolks are filled with cholesterol but they're actually filled with high-density lipoprotein cholesterol which is actually beneficial to us what women feegan activists would say that to some member of the public they would just think flesh all about don't want I think that's what sort of our false facts can get spread and then I do believe that you know animal meat is a good nutritional product that can I weigh some things that we can get from plants and that can be a better way for our bodies to absorb it in the the issue I guess with the thing about cholesterol is you know as we established our body does produce cholesterol and we can through what we eat in our lifestyles we can help our body produce more cholesterol less cholesterol but dietary cholesterol it does cause a whole host of health problems including atherosclerosis our number one killer area and things like that and so you know we consuming maybe a few of these products isn't gonna cause a whole host of health problems but a continuation of doing so leads to a buildup of all these things that our body doesn't need and you know what is it I'm very conscious and moving back to where you were so I'm gonna keep that in my mind but I also don't want to like you know skip past your points as well what is it that say that cholesterol from animal products what does it do that benefits our body what like in what sense does it help well class or from animals his last role is needed most cells the walls of them are sort of all contain cholesterol and yep um each tear class troll takes LDL cholesterol away from the blood which is bad cholesterol we can get from a whole host of foods and and that's why he's CEO class osmeña and then also - well obviously needing the body very importantly but um but why does our body why is the the cholesterol that body produces naturally why does that not suffice in the sense of why do we need to have more Questor when our body is already attuned to produce the cholesterol we need for for cell maintenance and for ever you know circulatory or biological purposes it's probably due to why we needed eat meat in the first place you know why are we we are felt to me but why did we need to eat me in the first place what do you think the reasoning for that would be there's only water or anything like well I mean like it I think if we look for our our history we we evolved I mean I don't know about your yeah religious beliefs but if we take it like an evolutionary thing yeah so we evolved from from primates who ate predominately plant-based if not entirely plant-based I may know some some primates will have them they'll scavenge maybe we'll have termites and insects but we evolved from predominant plant-based diet and the the evolution of consuming meat came Jerry nothing was like the Stone Age or the Ice Age basically the time of food scarcity and so we survived for a long time on plant-based sources and then the inclusion of animal flesh came at a time more of necessity to get calorie dense foods during maybe colder seasons or or from times where there wasn't the abundance of plants due to environmental you know changes in certain so our body wasn't if our body was needed these products then we'd have always had to consume them from kind of our in early biological form so to speak I mean yes our brains evolved but I digestive tracts have not really changed in the makeup and physiological construction of our bodies not has so changed yes but then it's sort of hard to know if that is really what happens you know it's all up in the air okay I mean all right yeah okay so let's if we kind of if you're happy to maybe take it back to where we were yeah okay cool so we were at separation of cars and we were talking a little about slaughterhouses and so you know treat me is like a layman you've been in an abattoir before take me through the process of what happened so you've been on the farm the cows have been loaded into the trailer or the truck they've been driven to the abattoir so so now take me through that process so they're afterward and often holding pens or whatever no it may be go on straight to slaughter and they're in holding pens and then they're brought through even and the whole protests are stunning them and then describe that process they just put into like sort of similar to what we'd used to UM process them as in like if they needed in Jackson's whatever like it's like a what you call a crush but when you say crush people go in crushing them but you're not it says Sarah stops them from moving metal cage of sorts um and then they're just stunned on the head and how this done it's like prongs isn't for cows it's because it's not yeah it's always a bolt with a cow and other than they can use electricity of a sheep it's normally electricity pigs they it's normally electricity and more they gassed of course but with cows it'll always be the bulker and Vulcans just straight through from the head into the into the skull and to render them unconscious that the the metal cage so to speak opens up they come down in there shut up by the legs onto the bleeding line or the hanging line and then the term would be stuck I guess right but what that means is their throats are cut or that you know there's a laceration placed on the throat and then you know that they bleed out yeah that's that's the process does that we say we said before least brutal and then and so what would be kind of a you know we s the word is humane isn't it do you believe that that's that's humane that process and I believe he means thrown all around like people say how can be humane to kill an animal but human came a bite from things that we do you know like killing but in the easiest way like you mean isn't I think that the like if you say humane way to kill somebody and be quick and painless but it also be it also been that best interest well I'd say if they were if you asked an animal what way do you want to be killed they would want it to be you know but I mean my best interest I mean like if you were suffering you know like a euthanasia for a dog you know I would consider euthanasia to be humane because it's in the animals best interest but I don't think we could argue that it's in the cows best interest to be bolted in the head and then you know blade across the throat when they're like 18 to two two years or in dairies you know yeah they can live in um maybe 14 years longer than maybe they do would you say that it's in the in the cows best interest or in the animal best interest what happens in this slaughterhouse um no but it is producing food because if that's better how can we place the word humane then in the words you main is applied to these situations I think it probably comes from like human humanity like almost like you know where's your humanity is almost like where's your compassion where's your benevolence which interestingly to synonyms for humane benevolence and compassion so when we say like where's your humanity it's almost like where is your humane nurse and so in the sense of killing animals would you say that to take the life of an animal is is compassion or benevolent it's compassionate in I wouldn't say it's compassion in the actual act of killing them you mean it's sort of thrown around I don't use it that much um so you don't think this Lots humane maybe wouldn't use the union what word would you use for the sloth just least this calm they try like it's constantly changing and slaughter roles and they're constantly bringing in new things and everything else a lot of people are advocating for like um no halal or you know things like that because of the brutality of it and but I would just say like it's just easiest and quickest way for them you know try and make it the least painful at least distressing least as comfortable process but it's this word least all the time isn't it because killing someone is gonna be it's it's not gonna be the nicest thing so you have you know you can't say oh it's gonna be usually really good yeah I appreciate your honesty II use the word someone now up to this point you've used it to describe animals and this moment use the words someone do you think the animals are someones so to speak em I wouldn't see them as in a person I'm see but they all are different you know I wouldn't see an animal as a thing I just say that's a being you know we care for animals like well through you know I'd be scratching them in aluminum anyhow so it is very hard obviously I'm not directly in the beef industry but I have I'd see cars put down or I be killed and it is hard and but you do we do accept it because I'm you know we know what they're used for and we know what what we use now for Nia yeah I actually really appreciate using the word someone one of the things that noise me sometimes I have discussions and I don't know maybe maybe you've seen them where people will ardently tell me that animals and not individuals and they don't have personalities and they don't have like likes and dislikes and I think part of that is maybe to make it a little bit more easy on the conscience if we can group them all is that it these are cows and they are all the same and we put a number in their ear just because that's all they are you know then their number and so I actually um admire you for saying up because I think it shows this a little bit more of a maybe and I don't really use the word awareness it sounds almost patronizing they don't I'm not trying to patronize you in that sense but I appreciate you saying that although I but to me it also makes it a little bit more uncomfortable because the acknowledgement of them being individuals then for me makes the Deaf even even less palatable because it's not just a grouping of this kind of very plain and ordinary species of animal that we just out that's their purpose you know this is all this cow was different to the cow before and the callous about of the bolt and the head is different to the cow who's hung up on the line bleeding to death do you think that the the recognition of them has been individuals makes the act of what happens to them less or more palatable to you um I wouldn't use the word pal like it doesn't make it any less less right or wrong in a sort of sense and because obviously I believe that it is right maybe not right is in what the animals will want but right in what is best for us and people ask me hiking in McKoy you know you name the cows or a trip some of them yeah okay names um the ones that would really stand I you know I've named them and stuff and stand out what do you mean by stand out just be really different you know you just like hello some cars are just they're not obviously you recognize them as being a different car but they just are very just get on with it and understand but some guys are just like trouble trouble in one sense they trouble like cheeky missus or just really friendly some cars run away if you mean if you come near them some guys would be coming up to you and there's one guys you ahead but you while you're walking and tonight man but mm oh yeah but um people say hi can I could you um see our dairy cows aren't killed all the time and so it sort of and make it easy in that fact since I've never really been with her beef herd I mean um and everything else but I do think I would still be able to deal with it because of what we do get from them on yeah you said making it easier so do you think the process of if you made a connection with an animal like they were a bit friendlier or you were able to give them like a you know little rubs and you know whatever is that you do with those animals that you make more of a connection with on the farm is the concept of waving them off at the truck as they're taken to the abattoir is that a difficult process do you ever feel guilty or upsell you just get back on with your day you've got a job to do and that's that no it is a tough process you know it's not easy I know farmers that would have and say they have a herd of cars that are coming up to kill and they have it on the counter and they would be up all night sort of thinking about it not up all night beating themselves up or anything but they would be sort of you know you do people say oh you just you just you don't even think it was an animal but a lot of farmers they love their animals and they do really build connections and it is hard but they em they know what they you have to keep in mind with the end product or you know what the animal will come to you in your head on what sort of good it is it's - that for me I find that it breaks my heart and I think I'm one issue out that I'm I'm always really you know really concerned about is sometimes this idea that farmers must just inherently be evil and just have a complete disregard for animal life and stuff and I don't I don't think that that paints a very fair picture but it kind of breaks my heart because I feel that there's this there's this there's this strange tussle going on where it's like I really like these animals or I've going to connect from this particular heard or this particular individual but it's almost like they have a they feel and then and I don't know if you feel someone there's an obligation I've got to do this this is my job this is what has to be done therefore like I can't let these emotions get the better of me it's like there's nothing wrong with thinking you know if you're up all night you know are you thinking I really like this animal then they don't have to die you know they don't have to die that's that's for me is the bottom line in this scenario and if they did it would be it'd be different but for me it's just I can't I can't come to terms with a song you know I think about people have that pets and their dogs and in that moment were there be new fan eyes and because they love the dog it's so heartbreaking it's like losing a family member and you know maybe there's not quite the connection with farmers and their animals but there must be some part of that connection where it's like these cows have been part of my life from maybe even years right but on this one morning or this one evening or what whenever that truck comes up all of all of that time we spent together the years potentially all leads up this one moment where they're put in this trailer and then within hours they're gonna be dead and they don't have to be easy you believe that they don't have to be vegans we believe that do afterwards we would believe they do have to be in order to feed people because we don't believe in the vegan world insisting anymore if it could be proven right say you know obviously I'm not I'm not necessarily preview prove this to you today yeah if it could be proven right without a shadow of a doubt in your mind that it is it could be sustainable and it is also healthy to be vegan would you stop then you know if those those doubts could be taken away from you what would then encourage you to keep doing farming if we were told you know veganism Medina shadow had died it's been proven everything I probably probably would I think more people would me myself and in some aspects you know with killing animals maybe but with products like milk and eggs I might wouldn't be so inclined to just stop because obviously I believe the milk is very nutritious and everything else mm-hmm but probably was the killing aspect averring was proven and I'd you know I don't have the facts it obviously I believe but you know it's all up in the air because the way I look at veganism sometimes is that it's quite new you know I think as a Western idea it is but I think that you know people have been abstaining from eating on products for for years and often people impoverished areas don't eat animals of necessity yeah but please yeah yeah um and then you know you sort of like a generation escobar's like my granny he's been eating meats and everything and she's lived you know and it's hard be so willing to something that cuts out so much when you do have all this in front of you and you do have all the facts for you know it's hard to believe all these new studies are coming up and everything else and you know it's hard to believe studies sometimes because yes we should always scrutinize studies vegan or non-vegan if you're a vegan listening don't just take something on face value because it's vegan you know and I agree with challenging those studies but at the same time those studies are emerging and and regardless what the study is has always give me a moment where the studies in new and we've been for decades we've had studies related to you know plant based you know foods the environmental stuff not so much how much will it take you know what what would that study you know cuz I there's some of the environmental ones I quoted have been published you know in the most credible scientific journals in the world and they know that they are considered to be the most comprehensive and they've got years of backing behind them and there isn't necessarily there is an industry funding it's not the vegan society now you know millions of pounds to get these studies completed like sometimes happens with animal agriculture you know where the beef industry or the AG industry will pay for studies yeah I probably is an answer to this is probably not fair for me to ask this but at what point do you then say you know okay this is this comprehensive study it's in this journal perhaps I should listen what there isn't division tree analysis this my question was gonna be what does it have to show but you can't answer sorry that's not fair for me for me to ask you okay so let's kind of edge back we were time I like naming animals and and that and you said that it was challenging it was hard and what do you think of if you heard of that farmer Jay Wilde he was in that 73 cows the bathra recently just won a BAFTA oh I heard about it enough good guy that's better than over okay so the story is he was a cattle farmer I think he was just Castle maybe dairy but I think it was just beef beef farming and one day he had a change of heart and he donated all his cows to hillside Animal Sanctuary a story like that does it make you think oh that's a nice thing I didn't you think that's a betrayal of farming but how does that make you feel it's not a betrayal of farming because I think everyone has a choice man you know they can make that choice educated whatever they want to believe in em he made that choice I don't see then there's the happy ending guys get to live the rest a nice happy ending you know but did the public I would be happy you know they're dolls he and his cars get to live happy and and that's what he want to do but I wouldn't say you know oh he's done an amazing thing we should do the same or everyone else she did to see him I wouldn't sort of think that way okay um because I do obviously believe in eating meat and animal products do you understand maybe the the part of him that encouraged him to do it do you think oh I know I can understand how he got to that point or I understand the mechanisms or that the mindset that brought him to that decision um sort of it's quite a rash thing today you know some need built your whole livelihood up to there and so also I think he would have to be you know I would never sort of see eye to eye with doing that sort of mass thing he um he had quite you know he was obviously quite certain on doing it's him yeah it was with boobs um with the calf's probably water before we get to the end of that can I want to work through each process and so if you've you've picked the calf up yourself taken away for the mother and the first time you did that you might have alluded to earlier but the first time we did that did was there something you had they said well I don't know if I like this or or anything like that um sort of you know from watching farm enrages I knew that it was processing you know some people don't yes he said people they're like how cheeky taken away and there was never really any real real guilt because obviously before I ever did it I was obsessed a farm and constantly research and everything else and reading up things and I did see deem it right women when Iced did first start helping hidin stuff but then you see there's other things there was a farm in America a couple of farms American that started and working on the calves would be with the cars during the day mm-hmm taken away at night and should only be milked in the morning okay obviously they're not producing as much but then it's stopping the whole cab separation and it would that would be if we were to stop consuming as much dairy as we were yeah that would be a way we could go um it was a smaller sort of farm but basically they're just taking away at night mark I was bunked in one so they purchased the 12 hours - what they give in the morning then during the day counter with her which I thought was was a good way but would only be possible on a mass scale if we were to reduce yeah and I would bear with what you like directly inconvenient almost I guess the process of taking the cars back and forth and be a bit more work but he didn't seem that Khoisan cows were sort of able to sort themselves like when they put them into the field whose was whose bottom I think if you were to take a dairy cartoon Sanctuary you'd have to do something similar sort of like I would a next day quarry or a decoy let's say vegans took a dairy cart in Animal Sanctuary mm-hmm what do they do with her milk or didn't milk her or what do they well she'll dry so what did what will happen is at the beginning they'll milk her because they have to and then when she when she dries that they just don't reimagine ate her again but at the beginning of course if she's you know she's still you know producing milk then of course they have to they have to take that milk and so do they um she's just with no bowler and hang so she can't get pregnant again I mean she's just with other yeah I mean yes I'm trying to think of examples where there would be a ball I mean I don't think mmm I don't think I've ever been around a century with those balls with with the female cows or if they if there are they will be castrated probably so I think one thing that sometimes happens is if animals are brought into sanctuaries and they are still they still have their testicles or they'll be castrated to it to avoid those problems and it that would be done on like a welfare ground of like it's not you know it needs to be done for that for that animal safety and for the safety of animals you know Bulls or any or even you know Rams you know and I'm almost caught cross my goodness of vicious at times so any any male animal interestingly enough we've as you know who is sexually alert by the females around you know can be a danger so sometimes it still in those groans so you believe it's okay to neuter castrate animals entirely without their consent in times of necessity I know you're alluding to as we're talking about maybe the castration of say sheep in farms I think what the thing about sanctuaries is they're trying to make the best out of a bad situation and so it's it's it's not something that we want to be have in the future but if the option is the animal goes through a slaughterhouse or the animal gets live life the sanctuary is castrated as a result of that that and we can use the word mutilation because it is a mutilation that mutilation would therefore be morally justifiable because it has the animals best interest at heart but an animal that's bred into existence therefore then has to do free mutilations like tail docking or dis budding orchestration to then just be used and then killed those those mutilations you know then they're not justified because of the whole life span not a life span but the whole reasoning behind it and the purpose behind that it's not it's not I mean farmers will argue that some of these things like tail docking and you know tell docking is an interesting one but I say this budding had done with the interest of the animals but it's not necessary true it makes the filing process is easier and a lot these mutilations are done to make the process is easier and sometimes more profitable not just to help animals with certain farming problems so to speak when what do you think about that because you know you in your head you might seem a bit hypocritical yeah sometimes I would think that like you would be completely fine with dogs and all being neutered I think what they have to be I mean we have a huge issue of animals in shelters and homeless animals animals on the street globally it's horrific in the UK you know animals and shelters a big problem so I think we have responsibilities to new to these animals because the sonne being euthanized and put down every single day that for me that's a really heartbreaking thing and again it's one those things where it is a mutilation and it's done without consent and I'm sure like you know a male animal probably wants to have that sexual urge and we take that from them and and of course on paper doesn't sound good but in the context of what it prevents or what it helps then it becomes a justifiable act now if I was to breed a dog into existence new to them because I wanted to reduce their their aggression and stuff just so I could keep them in a pen and then kill them well that wouldn't be justifiable but in the context of we need to reduce the population sizes we have animals been euthanized it does become just fireball that's what I think yeah what do you think and she knew it obviously always look at the animals best interest no no I if if it was if it was proven a necessity I mean this is this becomes tricky but if like if I mean people have been point like you know Eskimos for example huh you know I'm not gonna point the finger at that necessarily the idea of necessity is is what I think is most pertinent but in a situation when we don't have to arm animals then their best interests that come into play but you know if you were dying and you needed to eat a piece of you know how to survive I wouldn't I wouldn't be like no we know because I think that in times a necessity that things become morally justifiable for example there was a plane crashing I think was in the Andes humans of course obviously plane crash and so some of them survived but the only way they survived is because they cannibalize innate humans the other humans who had died it doesn't justify cannibalism but in the time of necessity it became a morally justifiable act to eat their friends you know yeah but it wouldn't justify me you know eating my friends right every no so that's that's so yes I wouldn't always put the animals best interest but in a situation like this because we can we should I think be easy that's when a lot of farmers sort of do you see as morally just say don't believe we need to eat me we need to consume animal products any other in order to be healthy and live a long life sue the whole sort of moral side doesn't play on their mind as much because they they do demon morally justifiable yeah yeah yeah yeah and that's that I think that is the crux that the crux of it right they see it's an act that is necessary whereas we believe that it's mum I don't want to consent but we know that it's not this not and you're gonna say well that's that's not true but I have to say that because of you know exactly and for me if I say believe it doesn't injustice to what is true but again that sounds like I'm being condescending I really don't mean to be though okay so you've separated the calf so you take the car I'm interested how many calf separations did it take before you just did it without thinking before you just go into the pen pick them up and walk off with three four five how many do you think it was not sure you know I know V against other word desensitize a lot you know that people become used to it and then they can keep dinner I believe that's true but I always do think about I never in that bad away you know that say this this car is being read to go back into the herd I'm always I call you'll see her soon or you know they probably walk to the you talked yeah I'm almost like to issue them gives me pattern everything else and they probably wouldn't it probably won't have the same connection when they're back in the herd or whatever but mm-hm you know I'd always just say yeah we'll keep her safe whatever you know and bonnet but you won't keep her safe you're something your killer in the long run but will give them the best life we can up until but you killed us not the best life there than we the best life isn't isn't that the best life is you know a life whether or not artificially inseminated where they don't have the babies taken away from under whether their destiny isn't to be a product and it's you know something on a shelf so you you don't have their safety is you have you have the the purpose of farming the product at the end of the money to be obtained that's the goal not safety but you know farmers aren't just money driven because if they were they wouldn't farm you know no worry a barman isn't that big a profitable business as much as people say right right right so you know it's a family thing as well sometimes yes I could heritage it is issue intended and that's why I think a lot of phones get so defensive you're attacking their history yes and they're coming back with like they just don't want to hear especially scrutiny put under like I know in the farming community no I freakin ISM is a big topic where's your school when I bothered and but it's definitely a big threat and M cor page this is but you know we do believe it's morally right so we don't see when we're keeping them see if our goal is to give them as good a life up until the point of killing and then enjoy what they gave us the products you know you make many things a lot of things are waste in nine days but you know if we did use everything but some places still do you know people don't live all that much anymore i you I and I always hated liver I don't mind it that much and it is very nutritionally dense and because of what it does in the body and but people don't need it that much um anymore because of that whole barrier you in an animal what's on their plate interesting that isn't it yeah it's rare in the industry maybe so when you say ruin the industry what do you mean what what does that mean um the fact that some things that happened on farms would shock someone you know somebody that didn't know and the fact that people these days aren't educated enough on whether food comes from so what do you would do I mean you wouldn't say this but if you're saying like because what what happens on farms and use what really in the industry see what I perceive that to mean is the truth is what's ruining the industry because you say well people I've realized and all that lever came from Nana more they under they hear about something that that happens the farm they didn't know about which is just true so when you said to me what I think of is the truth is ruin in the industry well I wouldn't our homes he wouldn't said that way I say it's that people these days are brought up so no danger no nothing you know so consumed never pay right there and like almost never to fend for themselves and then when they do hear these things people are a lot more emotional these days people take a fence they're a lot more people yeah you know I know I don't agree and I think that fence culture is is quite dangerous yeah at the same time what I think that does mean is the society has changed the point where we can take more emotional standpoints whereas before we had to be it's not about being callous but we had to do what we had to do to survive but now because we live in a more I don't know what the word is but a different world how we used to we now have the liberty to take emotional have an emotional feeling towards these things that before we weren't afforded that chance to so maybe it's more like that that that that is actually symbolic of the fact that society is changing to find issues that we didn't use to be concerned about issues that we now should be concerned about which is why for me veganism is is becoming a moral issue because we can we can allow it to be a moral issue now whereas 500 years ago course it was a different world so maybe that fact in itself is emblem symbolic of the fact that society is changing maybe it's not a bad thing it's progress or it shift um yeah it definitely is changing in many ways obviously but yeah you know I still believe in all farmers believe product mm-hmm do you think we talk about farmers have heritage families these these kind of ideas right it's using that creates a bias you know to the point where so as a vegan right I growing up I used to I fought British farming you know when I still do believe in British farming just don't plant for me you know I but I fought the whole like farmers love their animals I was in the idea and then I came out of the idea to the point where I'm at now but I guess what I'm saying is there was no real bias and I didn't want to be vegan you know I really didn't want to be vegan at all I'd love to just you know I'd love to have not don't love to have not found reasons to have to do that so to speak but at the same time because farmers your your unique innocence yeah but most farmers because they're raised you know it's it's their family's tradition and they don't want to let dad and mum down and want to make sure they pass on to their children do you think that creates a bias where they won't allow the possibility that what they're doing is wrong or isn't healthy or sustainable they're just so embedded in the industry they can not let the other idea enter their conscious because to do so threatens not just their money but their family in their traditions and Heritage's I'd say for a lot of farmers that probably is one of the reasons you know but they know obviously I'm different and I know a lot of people out there that didn't come from farms and they'd get into farming and you know don't do we morally justify what they do and so it is but you know a lot of farms are family but that's slowly dropping it is yes you know they're trying to find new people to come into the farm industry because people don't want to do it because it is such drilling work sometimes and it is intense you know 365 days and you really you don't get the holidays in the same you know ok so you you pick the cars up where did the carbs go now you carry them away where they're m's distinction of cars yet so we have like a we shared for jobs and on this small one and the big one is at the sheds are they group housing or they assault the solitary um on the on the big one they're solitary for the first two weeks I'm gonna end there in group in the other one they're just gripped just grouped and what do you think about solitary I mean it's eight weeks is the legal allow allowance I think in the UK you say neurology I think so and maxi was six or eight you know what do you think about two weeks of solitary what is it - sorry I keep saying loads of things what is the purpose of the solitary and do you think that it's ethical solitary main purpose is hygiene and to be honest calves can really annoy other cows when they think they just suck at different parts of them um and like yesterday I was feeding calves and one of them was just given the other one a thump and all I think he just sort of and they were quite young and it think it just sort of it's a lot cleaner so it gets them onto the milk get some sort of grow in a bit so that they're not the small one in that in the majority and then when you can put them all together they're sort of can fight for themselves and you know that can you know when you talk about solitaire it's hardly like they're away in a room on their own they can see other calves they just can't touch them you know and the pans are solitary it's just beside each other and it is really for the best interest of Hygiene because of you have other calves sucking and ever hang outs on them then it will lead to problems why do they suckle and because they're mad from milk go there because they listen they want to suckle from the mum right so and so what do you feed them because they're not getting them up smelled what what do they get as a as a food replacement so you get the mom's milk for the first three days or four maybe just under the parlour and then in the bottle and then it's on to care for a patient milk said though the goods were at Carrefour pastry milk off replacement so it's just like powdered hot water and just like you'd feed a baby if you weren't brass fitting yeah and then they get put on to my opinion a month's time if we still have the mom seat and like we greens obviously been a male yeah and then you do we better strong yeah absolutely yeah yeah so said the other cows when the solitary confinement pens and so we're in your big and the big time your work on it's two weeks and then they moved into group housing and then they're in group housing until when's their first there's 18 months when if they have their first cycle of impregnation um yeah I've never been I've never really followed a cow right the way through you know I've only started work on the big from you I think it probably 18 you know probably be around then yeah maybe a wee bit longer but some around year-and-a-half one of the things that the farm and last week was speaking to me about was who said that sometimes the the the calf that's the semen from the calf sorry the semen that they use is to produce a car that would have been natural for the breed of the mother and so sometimes they can have problems carving and have you ever experienced or heard or witnessed about a mother cow to having problems carving or doing like this splits you know what their legs buckle and they used the hobbles to keep you know which would change to keep their legs together if you experienced anything like that I've never really heard much problem because I'm not that familiar with AI at the minute I've only started and when he seen bits um I've heard of a heifer koi which is one that's never cow before maybe having a big calf um but I've never seen any problems I've seen the chains before the hobbles is yeah I've I've never seen him in person but I've seen videos obviously just of their feet chain to stop them spittin splitting which is a problem if excessive carving or if they have a big calf it carves it literally causes them steel this splits on the back and enough to that they're probably sent the nah c'mon you know they become a down a cow or they become you know not too useful and and what about issues of mastitis and stuff is that a mastitis is is in and of itself I mean humans get mastitis that's not necessary the issue but do you find that when animals have mastitis and they don't respond to say the penicillin all of the antibiotic so they then they just sold for slaughter what will make a process with an animal that that no longer is its profitable to the farmer what would the what happened then well with mastitis I've never really been one that's been it's been killed because usually they just would lose the quarter that they're being milked on or that thousand mastitis and then they just be milked on the three other quarters yes and all their problems though as you say like I've only ever seen cause that if got really ill beyond the point of I've never been with any I hear of broken legs and stuff we've never had any of that trouble and but the only time cars are sort of being killed or sent to slaughter has been when they're the back country they don't from yeah you know if I cause um there's a disease called you knees and okay which is described that yeah um it's sort of we notice it in the parlor when they go off their food and they're not eating anymore um and then they just slowly and they don't really want to eat anymore although we got this orthotic stuff sort of treatment which is plant-based and it's not really chemical but we started using it and it seems to be helping but they um they just don't eat mmm they just slowly starts really so when it gets there too far we maybe um walk on them or get the man and the bulk of them just because he says you bought them and I've heard of an unknown small firm work and I wasn't there but he said they had the bulk on it that day because I'm the farm itself arm yeah because I'm we got a guy in the dead obviously but yes we don't own a book on or anything but because they um they were just armed to death watch if an animal you know there are obviously fatalities on farms you know naturally someone was passed away what what happens the animals when they die in the farm they how do you I mean I've seen things have animals been from her bins and said you know what would happen to a cow if they died on the farm well we're not allowed to dump them or bury them running by loss because of environmental problems so they they're there's two places we sort of bring them to his to sort of processing plants obviously I'm a dairy cow which doesn't which isn't very you know doesn't have very much meat they're not gonna be used for human consumption so I know they get taken away because obviously the guy comes and sort out a lorry or whatever and lifts them up and puts them into the back and I think they are used for like dog foods and other sort of food yeah okay that's that's right I feel like we've been talking for a while so well we'll wrap up in maybe 10 minutes or so so is that good for you and but also it is well I've got a couple more things I want to ask but if there's anything that you've got written down so now you have note to them aware that I've led the conversation somewhere so I want to give you that time as well so actually we don't have to finish in 10 minutes we can finish whatever you want to finish it's kind of a cliche question but I feel like I'm obliged to ask it and I'm gonna ask the question which is do you think that morally if we were doing these things to dogs it would make a difference if dogs are in slaughterhouses would you think that was wrong I say Yulin for example where they have the dog meat festival what are your thoughts on that um I don't think I would see it wrong if dogs for being farmed for to eat I ones here wrong it's the fact that the dogs the Union Festival skinned alive and you know you see all these bad videos over in there you know is he tortured but I wouldn't see a problem if us as a society if we add dog meat for them to be farmed you know people say oh how can you love a dog and kill the other animal and over beatings are always saying that but you know we don't eat dog and it's a cultural thing you know yeah definitely it is and society that sort of determines we love these animals they're man's best friend never knows you know we would never kill them but I do think if we were eating dog meat on daily basis I wouldn't not see it in a wrong way so you don't think that morally there's a difference between a dog and a pig in a car when it car to the chicken and I wouldn't morally certain animal is yeah yeah and so if I was to go to the RSPCA and I was to a doctor Labrador or any or any dog would I be justified to kill them myself say say that gentleman that we talked about in America who cries when he kills animals say I rescued a golden retriever could I then be justified if it was legal you know to then take them home and cut their throat and do that myself if I wanted to in the same way that gentleman in America does if you were using that animal and not just killing it to kill it I wouldn't see you know my problem it's that if you were gonna eat it if you were gonna you know use its fur to make something if you were gonna I wouldn't see a promise as you didn't you know you give it up and tell the point of going you treated it fairly I would not see one man yeah it's interesting because how many people do have that issue deafness I think that's why vegans make that comparison because it's a striking comparison we've talked right at the beginning about taste right and do you think that a part of the reason why you continues products is is because of the taste you know because you know if you can get calcium iron from other places how much of why you consume those products is it's because you've simply just enjoy them I said sort of 5050 you know you start off on see you have to like something to eat it just help and I do love and meat milk and eggs on them I always really have especially am proper milk they're all stuff you know I like I keep my own chickens em at the back garden and eat their eggs and did you kill the chickens idiot because we well I never killed my chickens for my own consumption em with you people always asked me that when they're on and I think I could mm-hmm I definitely think I could um what would it take when you say could what what would it take for that because if it was just like KFC's clothes or Sainsbury's as clothes but I want chicken tonight would would you do it then I don't think that would be compelling enough what would what would be compelling enough then to UM to need chicken you know like I think it I think more of it to do with these chickens like I see like I have like a real emotional connection my chickens because they are and in my back garden airing us but I'm not saying I have more emotional connection and checking than I have with our quois mm-hmm but they already served the purpose of laying his eggs who to really need to kill him I would really need chicken like I wouldn't but what about when they're when they stop producing eggs what if it comes to a point let's start producing eggs when they've got two years of life left in them would you would you still keep them already kill them them because they don't serve that purpose anymore I'd say I'd kill them would you I mean I could if I had to like yet but i but I wouldn't so would you not could you will you I don't know if I well or would yeah but you would go to Sainsbury's or KFC and buy chicken yeah you said earlier that you were against factory farming and you wouldn't advocate for the land farming but you buy products that come from factory farms bad so I wouldn't you know I'm we got a lot of money from local butchers whatever you know a lot of farmers actually know like where their processing plants would go from you know where Jeremy and where do the chickens and pigs you eat come from and if you well a lot of ours come from Laramie from McDowell's it's a bit shelter but we knew I know a couple of McDowell's family knew the farmers you know em I get meat from there's a butcher in moiety and you know I would only I wouldn't buy fact from me so you never got to care see never know Sainsbury's never Tesco's never ran a strong city yeah but to see that saying that's where you don't know there's a good guess right we've chickens and pigs especially you know unless I mean a my goodness if it isn't factory farm they're gonna make search of song and dance out of it yeah because it's just that's the standards and so if you say well you know I don't advocate factory farming but then you buy those products then didn't you are inadvertently advocating for factory farming but that's why I constantly advocate for you know the minute and I'm sort of looking at labeling with milk bottles hitting on grass-fed and I doors you know like free-range milk I've seen a couple of organic milk companies putting on free-range milk he's saying at the car outside and I would out like I would definitely push for like in the future I would love to be self-sustainable if I had my own farm I would definitely if I was raising chickens where I would deftly emo and chickens probably would you allow yourself to have a connection with them in the same way you do with these ones I think it'd be hard knotty it would be hard not to being right about that you wouldn't necessarily have the luxury of not allowing yourself to have that relationship and if you could say nip down the road to the green grocer or wherever and buy something else them it because when the day comes and what knit tell me the name of one of your chickens hey there's one called Lucy Lucy okay so tell say today is he thinking like today's the day at Lucy's gonna die but I could not do it and I could do something else you know I guess that's the situation I as a vegan I find myself in every day with like oh I could do that but I don't need to and and so every animal for me is like a Lucy in your eyes because I don't need to do that so it's funny like you have to have a connection the animal to contemplate not killing them if that makes sense but if you don't have that connection it's but it's it's funny cuz it relates back to what we said earlier about our people and society now a more emotional so was she know you are as well because when you allow your emotion to have that opportunity you're like what I could but I probably won't but you won't think twice about going to sensors and Tesco's and oh you know I started with the butchers you said earlier yeah by the products they fanned those animals are also a Lucy yeah but then you know I wouldn't believe in it being like if the world went vegan I would obviously believe that I believe that a vegan world wouldn't work so I believe that we do need to keep consuming these products I mean do we need to keep farming these animals in order to be sustainable I know obviously you would disagree but that's sort of you know it's not just eating and theists you know it's what you you can gain from that animal I want em it's gonna help you in you know would you let someone else heat Lucy would you let me loose if I said you know what you've convinced me today I want to go back but the first thing I want to do is come back to while under view any Lucy would you let me it'll be hard would you or would you platinum it let's let's just not do that probably you wouldn't name what about and would you let anyone eat Lucy probably not then that's because you do see them as a pat really and people don't need Pat's no but really there's no difference is that it's just the connection you've allowed yourself to have with them that's important in that marking did this think the pair is just really a term used for connection I suppose and you've not allowed these other animals to have committed not that you've not allowed there's not been able to yeah I want to give you so please if you've got no Turing down you know and you you you ask me those questions because I know we're getting late and I don't want to wear you out and then not give you a chance to ask you some other thing you know allow you to ask some things so let's let's let's pass over the book so to speak do you have any questions or any points you'd like to make towards me um I just have a couple at least I was just thinking in terms of poetry obviously M factory-farmed kids hands you know I bacon site you be against that indoors all you're on right but you know let's say a chicken like my backyard chickens can go wherever they want yeah we already have a binary because they're just escape sometimes right yeah can go wherever they want they lay an egg once a day we take that egg obviously what would you dear or not because when it goes the animal sanctuary obviously it's gonna be doing the same thing you know yeah good question the issue of back yard and backyard eggs comes up a largely i gas thereby vegans as well yeah the podcast I'm releasing tomorrow I talked about this actually but I will address it now as well part of the there's a biological and also ethical aspect to it biologically speaking like cows we've selectively bred hens to produce a lot more eggs and they would naturally 300 minnow years so you're looking at that you know the best part of one-a-day is as you were saying your hens probably do and the egg shell is made purely of calcium which is why osteoporosis and broken bones is such a huge problem in all systems of egg farming I think in free-range bonds like 45% of hens suffer from a broken bone so just before you went to judge if the hens will eat their own eggs and it's a great way replacing nutrients so you can feed the eggs back to them and and if that helps add longevity to their life because if if taking their eggs means that their bones become more brittle and you're not replacing the calcium in their feed necessarily and and all of these things then then that could actually impact their life in the long run and although the suffering is not as obvious you know comparatively - and a helling of cage of course but if it can impact their life a negative way in the long run and so if we can avert that and a black we are obliged therefore to do so so I say feed the egg back to the hand we can reduce the number of hands that the number of eggs that heads like to lay by not encouraging them to lay more when we take them encourages them if you leave them to try and lay like a clutch it can reduce the number of eggs which takes the strain off their body so it's thinking like that but for me it's for me veganism isn't it's not about saying ah you know we shouldn't harm animals for me it's about changing our mentality and part of that is changing how we view of r animals and and a lot of what you've been saying and this is because this is what you believe is that animals serve a purpose for us whereas I don't believe that an animal's life is their life and they're right like in the same way you serve no purpose for me I still no purpose for you everyone we see today that their purpose is not to serve us now a chicken's life their life isn't a service and it's very subtle but when we take that egg away from them we're saying the opposite and my issue is if we remove all animal farming and we live in the vegan world and now everyone's got rescued hens in the backyard and it's a nice thing to do and who could argue against that and then you're taking the eggs it you know your neighbor Shirley or whoever could be like can I have some and yeah I mean why not is it's like a small step and then Bob from across the road wants sex you take another small step and then you can start selling them because there's money and then before you know you have a really small version of a commercialized egg farm and then it kind of goes from there and and that mentality is why we're here now it's these animals are here for me and they serve me a purpose and even on a small scale of taking their eggs if we reinforce that it sets a dangerous precedent for this for continuing down the road again that we don't want to end up down so for me if I if you if you are two options we're buying from caged hens and all free-range hens and and eating those backyard hens I can't tell you that in the backyard hens is causes as much suffering as the other ones does because it doesn't but for me veganism is a philosophical belief system it's about changing mentalities about the purpose of an animal so that that's for me why why not but I also appreciate that that seems unusual because even when I was first vegan I had a father that was mental so I appreciate that to your public that doesn't make any sense yeah that was a developing idea for me about first of all his animals are suffering in farms and slaughterhouses I need to stop eating them and it was like well hang on using animals in any ways wrong and as I hang on why do I think an animal serves a purpose for me that was like my chronological progression to where I am now so that that's what I think you know you say about you know leaving eggs and letting them and them even them and stuff if you are taking where the eggs chickens naturally did eat their eggs when they laid like one every three months right I believe you have a chickens eating its egg every day it can only go through that cycle of replenishing nutrients Lehman enterprise so far you know to the point that it needs to eat something else to you know of course it needs needs other fears as well you know the feed that you feed them as a it's more of a supplement yeah supplementary course so to speak like chickens eat everything really you know they're eating food scraps under the kitchen they're eating the feed we give them they're eating insects in the grass yes and then you know my chickens wouldn't really bother to look at their egg once they bled it they're just away off again but if you cracked the egg for them I'm sure they would but that's because they're just curious but then you're laughs for the eggshell they wouldn't eat the eggshell you can use the eggshell as fertilizer for if you're growing some you've got a little home patch of you know vegetables never used as a fertilizer or something but then if they're not looking twice it never had known what is so wrong with me taking it and using it because it is so well I believe it is very good for us you know it's for me it's that mentality that I was discussing yeah and I said that that doesn't make much sense to you currently and like I said a few years ago when I first went vegan and a father it's just like proper extreme you know yeah but that's that's that's what I worry about and even in a vegan world if we haven't got over these this mentality of an animal's use and purpose we can slip back into bad habits and it's not long before selling to your local neighbors equals selling to your local community which means omus and you know it's Ed's eggs you know and I'm selling them to supermarkets again it's just that dangerous road for me we have to get over that mentality so because veganism is about animal use it's not about an abuse it's not about a farm it's not about a slaughterhouse it's just the generic idea of reusing someone else when we don't have to it's a philosophical teaching that's what that's what I hold true to myself about it and it would be it would be morally it wouldn't be morally right for me to say well this is wrong and this is right you know I've there has to be some level of consistency now I don't believe in moral dogmatism you know I think we can take that too far but there has to be a sense of consistency and I think and also I think another thing is just it say say you meet a vegan and like I'm freaking but I X from the backyard you be like what the hell yeah it sends mixed messages of what being vegan means and I think being vegan means not doing this let's just stick to those principles and so I think it just sense mixed messages to society well versus like what vegan see and eggs and the sorry there's this thing called veganism like a couple of years ago it kind of died up I mean thankfully but vagon ism is that vegans who we eggs and it's like well that's not vegan and that's just that's just vegetarian so I think it's vegan means this this is what it stands for let's not muddy the water with like oh but there's this exception that exception that's what I think I go into a little bit more detail about it in in the podcast that is tomorrow but last week depending on when you're listening to this but I'm you know I think that's why it is so hard sometimes commentary but you think I'm the complete opposite where that we do of course um of course there's a process and you don't have to you know even if you even if you morally justify to yourself monitors time makes it sound really intense but even if you justify yourself then the notion of taking Lucy's eggs that still doesn't mean you can buy other animal products you know it doesn't mean that you can then justify days in the slaughterhouse you know or anything like that it's just one aspect doesn't justify every other aspect you know so to speak and then you know veganism has grown so much from a sort of diet lifestyle to you know what some people are calling cold days I do believe in some ways it is going a bit mad do you think I'm part of that cult I that mad bit not really but I am but in terms of what it means to be part of the co I do subscribe yeah I fit that you know I advocate I'm determined and get the matter what is more extreme you know there's a lot of people that are very describe what being an extreme for you can means because I'm veganism you know in a way of I don't even eat backyard hens yeah that's probably extreme it is extreme but like you do not well I don't know but you know this whole like that project calf mm-hmm I thought that was a whole invasion of privacy and and you know really put people and made people very paranoid farmers you've given away their addresses and their farms and everything else and it was sort of like the human didn't matter yes it's just the calf that we care what mm-hmm but their people and their families and you know what was in 9000 dresses or something as well I mean yeah it was absolutely dairy farm and yes and I probably even clean the ones you work on I imagine like we were all really new people security and a ring just drops describe project cough well I haven't heard the whole thing I was he but from what I know of it it was it was the combat Fred brew dairy yeah sorry I came about after vegan Yuri and M it was the releasing of them addresses of farms dairy farms in UK yeah it was basically some vegan activists released the location of every dairy farm in the UK yeah that's project calf it's an interesting one isn't it because I can understand from your point of view why you see that is it creates a farm is scared mm-hmm like scared of it and I don't mean that like oh yeah what I mean is a farm is fearful that vegans are going to hurt them is yes even just coming to their farm or vandalism or anything or just and I know it all right all our dresses are right there but even it just being there on a page for someone to see your farm and know you know you know it is a scary concept and definitely did strike a lot of you know anger you said before about like oh maybe I'm not part of that now I've trespassed on dairy farms before she said what this way I I guess I'm part of that problem and I and when I say but I would never I think there's a you know me personally when if I if I trespass on to a dairy farm I'm scared of what the farm will do to me and probably you know just as much as the farm is scared what I would do to him and and so part of a project calf for me that the situation is I think it is the obligation of a of a civilized society to to shine light on on an injustice now you don't believe it's an injustice which is where the problem lies yeah but for us it we think what happens when I'm also we know what happens to animals isn't injustice because it causes them the suffering and pain so as you say those addresses are already available online the difficulty is it's you have to kind of come across them by chance you know it's a random thing just to find a dairy farm on Google Maps right but now it's consolidated them all and what I thought this is a hard thing because I don't want any I don't want there's no reason for farmers to be scared of that of their own safety I mean yes of course there's there's the issue of you know people trespassing taking footage and actually so I run an animal rights group called Serge Corona we released an expose into a dairy farm on Tuesday with hidden cameras placed in the farm and that farm what the the hidden cameras revealed was farmers punching the cows kicking them twisting their tails all sorts of things that you probably find deplorable well and I'm not I'm not grouping what I'm not saying it went please don't but through us trespassing not us but food the people obtain the footage trespass and they gave us the footage to release through them trespassing on that farm and and putting the cameras up they revealed something that you yourself would agree is horrible right kicking you know swearing at them twisting their tales punching them just horrible things so it would you not say that that act of trespassing was justified because it's Sean lights on something that's wrong it was justified maybe afterwards but initially there's no justification because it's like you justify releasing addresses whenever for the animals or as I will never see it justifiable to post someone's address and label them with their career when they haven't give you consent hmm consents funny one isn't knickers you know we talked about consent you're right there's what you know yeah you know vegans and I say well animals can't consent this but Yemen you're right and says the farmers didn't consent to that but but you agree that after the footage came out it was justifiable in that case but I'm sure there's been plenty of cases where maybe farmers haven't been brutal towards cars not in the same way but again that but there again you know there's no heartbeat there's no stories of farmers being hurt from anything like this happening yeah but surely it's complete invasion of privacy what about an evasion of of someone's body yeah but we don't now obviously I don't justify AI so I would not even like that process but just the commodification of someone's body but then I wouldn't place them on the same level human being we don't have to because the the the the notion of someone's farm being revealed on Google Maps compared to someone's body been take you know being commodified and ultimately killed you don't have to put them on a human's life on the same level as an animal's life necessary to objectively believe there's some things that it's wrong even if they are a nonhuman animal it's a tricky it's a tricky one and I understand I understand why it would be a bone of content just more than a bone of contention I understand why it would it would potentially even scare farmers but that's part of why I'm concerned about the growing dynamic is farmers shouldn't be scared of vegans for their for their safety you know in the same way I'd really hope that vegans shouldn't be scared for their safety button over know many of you yourself you know I sometimes I'm in situations that I'm in as well and I think the media has a big role to play you know creating this division vegans versus farmers well all we need to do is sit down and shout at you and I do and that's why I want to do this because you know I believe that it you know through releasing that footage the act of what we did was justifiable but as you rightfully say you know well not rightfully suppose at the point you make it well how do you justify in the beginning mm-hmm and they're just and they're just very simple because this can this happens on farms and it's this is the role of a civilized society to root out things that happen that are immoral but then I wouldn't see the killing as immoral no that's true that's why it's so do you think people have a responsibility to be aware though and and because the farming often doesn't divulge you know February's about like the idea of making the dairy industry transparent but the only thing I ever get told from Fabri dairies here's a video of my cows grazing you can get calcium from milk but I don't see footage of people walking off with dairy calves in the hand saying this is February I don't see footage of animals in slaughterhouses if if you want to be not saying you but if the energy wants to be transparent then you've got to show the whole picture because then you know I I don't feel the need to release footage taken from hidden cameras because you are being complete transparent but I feel like that transparency is what scares the farming industry why why why what is why not be completely transparent where's the footage of Ryan carrying the calf out of the pen saying this is febuary this is dairy embrace it but then I see I think that's getting a lot better like there was a there was a big campaign because of people not knowing this there was a there's a Facebook page called New Zealand farming girls or something I think it's run by these two girls from New Zealand yeah and they would post all these things they did a post on car has been in solitary pants explained why the reasons why I've done it and they did one on my calves are separated from others they explain everything they did one on antibiotics and stuff being in milks and mastitis they did a post also thing of each one and I think they are growing to talk about these things and people are being more transpiring with said juicing us but cause vegans are bringing light to these things that otherwise because this has been happening for decades but it's never been discussed but now it is but yeah I think that's because vegans are making a big deal out of it and so farmers and I think and why better response to some years of wise people are gonna draw judgments based on what the vegans the same it probably is you know vegans are talking about us and showing everything and I'd say people didn't know about it until it became commercial mm-hmm and all super stores everything else yeah we sour milk straight from the farm people are up at the farm they said can we go see the cows I'll show them you know I would never be like all you know I would never not want to show anyone around our farm because there's nothing I deem wrong and so in essence if a vegan came walking on your farm and to film put hidden cameras up what would what would be Oakland stood there would be no concern then what what's hidden cameras if they came and consented and said we'd like to film something can we completely fine if they came in the dark of night sad off cameras I mean no one I just did this completing business it's like someone going in your house and saying oh can we see what you're doing on a daily basis if you've gotten on the ID you're doing nothing criminal you wouldn't mind that much would you let me come on one more farm yeah and will you let me film yeah film you taking the calf I can obviously film the a I could we go to the abattoir together and film I obviously it would just be your permission but theoretically speaking early I would not have a problem with it knowing what I do I don't deem it wrong I don't you know I wouldn't have nothing to hide yeah yeah well that's so it was interesting you know I feel like part of the processes is hidden and so and that there are transparency and it solves and it is and the interesting thing from that is if you if you just film something objectively so safe you know say it is something about this separation or the artificial insemination it's just it's a complete objective documentation of what's happening so I'm filming and I'm going this is horrible and you're doing it and you're think this is fine then the emphasis is put on what the the person without the bias is you know so you know you and I are gonna have our own individual biases in anger Michael this is terrible but it's if you're just released and then people draw their own conclusions well that's their own conclusions there's something powerful about that exactly well maybe maybe maybe one maybe we'll see each other again but do you have any anything else we'd like to ask any other questions any of her notes you've got wrote down something I said earlier that you didn't have time to respond to that that you want to pull me up on anything like that mmm there's no pressure e but you know I'm really I don't think so sorry covered are you happy how this conversation has gone yeah you feel like you've had a chance to express yourself and good it's good I'm happy to hear that that's what I want you know it's just you know I like I like talking it's interesting and I learned from you you know you know I think that's that's the point of it you know I feel you know it's interesting I'm sure in many ways you maybe you feel like how your your preconceptions you know you've you know food you know food talking about it you can kind of reaffirm it to yourself likewise I feel like I can reaffirm its myself and it's like we're saying about objectively filming this is such an objective conversation there's no animosity there's enough it's just you're saying you're what you believe I'm saying I believe and then it's down to whoever's listening yeah today I could come up what and that's the way isn't it but that's that has to be the way you know you have to come in and think I'm not gonna change your mind you're probably not gonna change my mind up there who's listening do you make the decision yes no it's all by choice I do believe yes I agree a choice and and for me that choice is a factor in the choice of the animals who like to live and but in any way look we've been speaking probably a long long time it's it's quite late now here at the time so let's wrap it up now if you have to do so thank you so much for coming in today I'm gonna do a little thing I did by Ryan Gregg's vegan sausage roll actually bought him and his girlfriend a couple so I hope you enjoyed them know how much he's probably I'd offered we were gonna go to uni diner and what I've only got a real short amount of time with Ryan I was like I'm gonna get me Greg's being a sausage roll we're gonna go to uni diner I'm gonna you know make you know we might have times to all those things but I was like let's do this properly and but anyway look whatever we do after this I wanted I'd like to remain in contact yeah yeah you know I would be interested in coming over and visiting you in northern island you've come over here to do this and talk to me so I would I would be interested to maybe come and come to one of your farms both of them ideally maybe in just you know I mean I've been on farms before yeah but I you know that doesn't mean though isn't something so I'd love to go maybe and if we can figure out something where I can film we can talk about yeah but point is I'm really grateful you're here thank you for coming it's been a journey for you and I wanted right in contact yeah cool oh no yeah if you've got anything else to add this is this is the time but if not Wheeler will say goodbye already just thank you very much it's been good conversation it has I took you in contact you cool all right well thank you everyone for listening hope you found this enjoyable and you've taken something from this vegan non vegan whatever there's plenty for us to learn and conversation and dialogue I think it's so essential and you know wherever not Ryan thinks I'm part of the vegan come I think maybe I am very we'll see but anyway hope you all enjoyed listening I'll see you next week on the next episode of the Disclosure podcast but until then have a great week and we will speak soon [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Earthling Ed

Views: 195,823

Keywords: earthlinged, earthling ed, vegan, veganism, why, be, go, earthlings full movie, activism, debate, discussion, dairy farming, ireland, dairy farmer, meat eater, versus, vs, plant based news, tractor, dublin, farming videos, cruelty, land of hope and glory

Id: WFdgfSuzWwI

Length: 123min 40sec (7420 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 11 2019