Debate: Justification by Faith (Walter Martin vs Mitch Pacwa)

this evening John Ankerberg will examine what Roman Catholicism teaches concerning the doctrine of justification and what are the issues surrounding this doctrine that divide Catholics and Protestants today the doctrine of justification deals with the question how can a sinful person be accepted by a holy and righteous God both Roman Catholics and Protestants agreed that this doctrine is important since if a man seeks to be forgiven in a way in which he cannot be forgiven then he won't be forgiven both Catholics and Protestants agree that the benefits and merits of Christ are necessary for a man to receive justification but we're Catholics and Protestants disagree is how do the merits of Christ become mine to follow civilians carried to its logical conclusion is a denial of justification by faith in the context of Romans 4 and 5 because it involved works as a means of merit and when we disagree is decisive there because we understand the Scriptures to also say that those obey them actively leading to the commandments are part of that process of justification the wrong count of doctrine itself teaches that man cooperates by faith and works for redemption whereas biblical theology says it's by grace we have been saved through faith not by ourselves with the gift of God not by works lest anyone should boast and st. James says faith alone is not enough they without good will is insufficient because the justification that the Catholic Church talks about is not as Luther thought really computed Walter are you saying this if anyone says that men are justified you divide the sole imputation of the Justice of Christ are you saying that are you saying that a man is justified by the sole imputation of the Justice of Christ Romans 4 absolutely okay Trent says that man's an anthemic where the Catholic Church's conversation sort of it's rather a transformation of the inner person they have nothing I think we agree that the kendo probably sang there yeah and okay what we're saying is is that what's the scripture exactly in Romans three and four is saying if God is saying something different than trends at that point then we should stick with the scripture so tonight you will hear the first of three programs on this crucial subject of how a man can know his sins are forgiven and how he can receive justification before God tonight John Ankerberg will introduce you to the terms father Pacwa and dr. Walter Martin we'll be using to describe their positions before you hear their full discussion we thought it would be helpful for you to have a simple definition of some of the words you will be hearing for example its salvation by grace through faith justification legally before God extrinsic outside of mankind and then the infusion of that grace transforms into the new creation in Christ Jesus and begins the process which we call thanks if occasionally what Trent did was confused sanctification and justifications and made the justification process which was extrinsic to man part of his internal nature and instead substituted sanctification as a means of merit before a human can even speak of these faith God has to initiate scholars okay and in his fight again by Christ and by giving great we call in here in the Latin term convenient great into the soul before the person even start to think about salvation is called the doc would you tell us what it means to have congruous merit that the center is working in cooperation with the habitus of grace and that the congress of merit takes place what does that actually mean that process of justification is not simply some legal process if the entrance into a personal relationship with a person's identity you see the word justification not taking place outside of the person but it must take place inside the person that whole concept right there you differ with the Protestant church you are justified by faith because faith is the beginning of human salvation the foundation and the root of all justification let's stop right at which let's impossible to please Bob question is is it a beginning transaction or is it a final transaction I think that's what we did this Greek right just the point what you just read okay is the beginning the transaction right no or by grace past tense you have already been saved through faith not by yourselves not by anything working in you nothing like that no transformation English the whole purpose of the John Ankerberg show is for you to understand the issues clearly so to help define terms and allow you to understand the tensions that exist to this day over the issue of justification between roman catholicism and protestantism john ankerberg will define six key terms that represent what the protestant reformers were teaching and across from each of these point six terms that represent roman catholicism is understanding of the doctrine of justification on the Protestant side the first key term is forensic one across from forensic on the Roman Catholic side are the words legal fiction number two on the products inside is synthetic number two under Roman Catholicism is the word analytic number three on the products inside is imputation three across from imputation is the catholic word infusion number four on the Protestant side is no human there's four across from no human merit is the catholic word congruous merit number five on the products inside is can't lose it number five on the Roman Catholic side is can lose it number six on the Protestant side is faith alone six across from faith alone is the Catholic position faith and works are necessary tonight John Ankerberg will go through these terms with you and shows you how they relate to the discussion that you will be hearing in the next two weeks concerning justification we invite you to join it good evening as you know we're in the midst of our discussion concerning Roman Catholicism and we're now approaching a very important doctrine called justification tonight I think we need to spend some time defining the words that you'll be hearing only if you understand the terms our guests used will you be able to clearly understand the important issues involved concerning this doctrine so to define terms I'm going to set before you a chart containing six key terms that represent what the Protestant reformers were asserting and then across from each of their points another column of six key terms that represent the role and Catholic understanding of the doctrine of justification now the first word on the Protestant side that describes their concept of justification is the term forensic forensics has to do with speech maybe you are involved in a forensic Club at school so you know this term the reason why the Protestants concept of justification is called forensic is because their ultimate basis of justification is the declaration of God when God declares a man just he is in fact just this concept is based on the scriptural passage in Romans chapter 4 where the Apostle Paul appeals to the life of Abraham Paul states abraham believed God when God made certain promises to him and because abraham believed God the Bible says God counted or imputed or the word reckoned it to him as righteousness that is declared him to be considered standing righteous in God's sight so for Martin Luther and the Protestant reformers the basis of Abraham's justification is found in God's declaring him pardoned or justified the moment he believed forensic justification then is an act God does outside or a park for man it is the judicial declaration of God about the man that he because of Christ now stands in a state of justice the man has been officially declared pardoned by God now the Roman Catholic Church considers forensic justification to be as we can see in point number one on their side a legal fiction that is this would involve God calling something just that in and of itself is not just the question Catholicism is raising is how can God declare a man to be just when in fact he remains a sinner this has its roots in the dispute stemming from Luther's very famous slogan see no Huestis at Pekka Tarr which means that when God sees a man truly believe he then declares that man justified legally in his sight but at the same time as Luther says the pardon center is still a sinner in and of himself Catholicism believes that God only declares a man just after a man works in cooperation with God's grace and has become just God will not call an astray a rose so Catholicism believes that the Protestant concept of forensic justification involves a very serious problem in the righteousness of God namely it involves God in a legal fiction that is calling something just which in and of itself is not just but this brings us to point number two you get a broader understanding of what Protestants meant by forensic justification we need to look at the second word which describes their view it's the word synthetic by this term Protestant reformers meant there's a synthesis a combining or adding of something to the life of the sinner when he stands before God namely the sinner appears before God in union with Christ the biblical imagery says he appears clothed with the righteousness of Christ that is the righteousness that merits of Christ are imputed to him and cover him God declares a sinner just not in and of himself but he declares him just in Christ it's the merits of Christ that constitute a man righteous not the merits of the man now to say that the merits are imputed which is point number three underneath the Protestant side means that they are reckoned or counted or transferred from the account of Jesus so to speak and placed in the account of the sinner so the moment the center believes in Christ God sees him standing before him with Christ and all the riches and merits of Christ cancel out the sinners deaths the synthesis has taken place that is Christ and his merits have been added to the account of the sinner the sinner offers nothing of his own but everything of Christ it's on the basis of the merits of Christ alone which are imputed to the center that allows God to declare him just Walter are you saying this if anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ are you saying that are you saying that a man is justified by the sole imputation of the Justice of Christ Romans cooler that's the movement okay Trent says that man is an anthem oh now to across from synthetic and the Roman Catholic side is the word analytic which describes how they understand justification the word analytic here means to analyze to examine to study in order to determine the outcome Roman Catholicism believes God declares a person just only after he analyzes the person and finds within the person real righteousness real justice within now how Catholicism says a person becomes truly righteous within is described by their word under point number 3 which is the word infusion by infusion Catholicism teaches that God's prevenient grace or the power of Christ is infused or placed into the center when this power is given and the sinner cooperates with this power he can arrive in a state of justice and at that time God will declare him to be just because he has in fact become just now Catholicism is not teaching a crass view of justification that a man in and of himself can live a holy and righteous life and can be justified in the sight of God but Catholicism is teaching that in the power of Christ a man can arrive at a point where he will become just within and then God will be able to declare him justified where the Catholic Church is trying to say instead of imputation it's rather a transformation of the inner person they have and that things I think we agree that the candles just saying that yeah okay what we're saying is that what the scripture exactly in Romans three and four is saying if God is saying something different than Trent at that point then we should stick with the scripture all right let's summarize Catholicism believes the basis of a man's justification is the righteousness God finds within the person for prostate is amiss ocation is Christ himself his righteousness in Protestantism a man's righteousness within is not in any way the basis upon which God pardons a man rather God pardons a man solely on the basis of Christ in Catholicism sanctification or the inner transformation within a person must come before a man can be justified in Protestantism sanctification or the transformation of the person's inner life by the Holy Spirit comes only as the immediate result of justification and never is the means by which a man gains justification Protestants believe Catholicism has not accepted Paul's teaching in Romans and Galatians which clearly defined the only basis God says he will justify a man Paul says to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned yours that word imputed as righteousness all right in a moment we're going to come back and we'll move on to point number four no human merit and congruous merit but before we do that I'd like you to know where you can get this information and the transcripts of this entire series let's move on under number four on the protestant side we find the words no human merit by this Protestants meant man has no merit of his own whatsoever that can dispose God to justify him justification is not God's judgment based on the personal righteousness within the center or of any kind of good works a man can do rather justification is God's judgment based on the work of Christ at the cross in whom the sinner believes the Bible says not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy he saved us Catholicism carried to its logical conclusion is a denial of justification by faith in the context of Romans four and five because it involves works as a means of merit the Roman Catholic doctrine itself teaches that man cooperates by faith and works for redemption whereas biblical theology says it's by grace we have been saved through faith not by ourselves if the gift of God not by works lest anyone should boast not by anything working in you nothing like that no transformation English for across from the Protestant phrase no human merit is the Roman Catholic phrase congruous merit Catholicism teaches that working in cooperation with previant grace or what they call the habitus of grace a term that describes the infused power of Christ within a person that the sinner can then live a life that is not necessarily absolutely perfect but a life that is meritorious enough that it makes it congruous or fitting for God to grant justification man's cooperation with Christ's power earns man congruous merit before God congruous merit is merit that can only be there in cooperation with the power of God but at least congruous merit must be present before justification takes place in Roman Catholicism and where we disagree is decisive there because we understand the Scriptures to also say that those obey of Aksum obedient to the commandments are part of that process of justification all right now we come to a very interesting one and I want you to listen very carefully number five for Protestants is the phrase can't lose justification classically the Protestant reformers argued that since a man's justification depended solely on Christ's merits and not anything which a man does a man could not lose his justification since Christ has already successfully lived a perfect life and died to pay for all of man's sins nothing would ever change that fact therefore once a man has the righteousness of Christ reckoned to his account and the blood of Christ has been imputed to cover his sins while believing in Christ the total number of good or bad deeds a man does will not change this gift from God it should be pointed out that though Luther agreed that the merits of Christ were the sole basis of a man's justification and it did not depend in any way on a man's deeds he thought that a man could still lose his justification if he totally turned away from Christ since God's gift of forgiveness of sins and eternal life was appropriated by faith if a man decided not to rest his eternal destiny in Christ and totally turned against him only then would a man lose his salvation in other words the only sin that Luther felt would cause a man to lose his salvation was the sin of apostasy now on the other hand Calvin taught that once God justified a man God would strengthen that man's faith and protect him so that he would never want to turn away from believing in the work of Christ on his behalf 5 across from the Protestant position of can't lose it is Roman Catholicism is position you can lose it Catholicism believes the justification can be destroyed that is justifying grace within a man can be obliterated by his committing mortal sin Roman Catholicism distinguishes between venial sins sins that are not so serious that they involve the destruction of justifying grace with mortal sins which are sins so serious that the grace of justification can be destroyed within man if a man commits mortal sin and destroys his justification in order for him to regain it Catholicism teaches he must come via the Sacrament of Penance which involves confession absolution and satisfaction Catholics do believe in Christ but are reminded that their justification also depends on their works cooperating with Christ a man cannot know his own heart so being subject to many temptations he may commit a variety of mortal sins any one of which could destroy his justification that's why the Council of Trent stated each one when he regards himself in his own weakness and in disposition may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith which cannot be subject to err that he has obtained the grace of God so for Catholicism a man can lose his justification and can't be sure he will someday be in heaven again you know like like first John 5 makes a distinction in different kinds of sin but if one commits serious sin one can cut oneself off from Christ and thereby lose one's justification all right let me ask you is all this making sense I hope that you're sticking with me now finally we come to number 6 under number 6 representing the views of Protestants are the famous words by faith alone for Protestants faith is not just intellectual assent to certain facts about Christ salvation rather faith is a knowledge of the facts plus a total commitment or trust in reliance on Jesus Christ who is the sole reason and grounds upon which God justifies us for Protestants justification is an act that can take place in a single moment the moment the sinner through faith trust Christ completely at that moment the benefits of Christ are applied to his life and he is judged or declared by God to stand in his sight as righteous faith is not a meritorious work that God looks at as the reason or the basis for a person's justification rather faith is only the instrument which allows someone to reach out to Christ who is the sole reason and grounds upon which God justifies now six across from faith alone is Catholicism's belief that justification is by faith plus works for Catholicism faith is required but the object is saying that faith alone is all that is required for a person to be justified Catholicism requires in addition to faith works but at the same time as Saint James says faith alone is not enough without good works is insufficient because the justification that the Catholic Church talks about is not as Luther talk merely imputed the dispute centers on some key passages in the New Testament most notably the third and fourth chapters of Romans and the second chapter of the Epistle of James let's look at these passages right now Romans chapter 3 beginning at verse 28 says for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law Protestants believe that since Paul says that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law then one can only conclude justification must be by faith alone there are no other options further the Apostle goes on building his case by giving an historical example in Romans chapter 4 where he appeals to the case of Abraham it begins for if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God for what does the scripture say and abraham believed God and it was reckoned here's that word counted or imputed it was reckoned to him as righteousness now to the one who works his wages not reckoned as a favor but as what is due but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly notice according to Paul God justifies the ungodly not the ones that are righteous within his faith is reckoned as righteousness now the point is that what Paul's very clearly saying here is that when abraham believed god that was the time of his justification abraham believed god and it was counted to him as righteousness abraham believed god and he was justified by divine declaration apart from works so here in chapter 4 the Apostle Paul links the statement from chapter 3 we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law with the historical situation of Abraham to prove his case that a man is declared justified by God the moment he believes Paul Labor's the point that it is by faith alone in Christ and nothing of man's works that is the basis of God's justifying a man now how does the Roman Catholic Church deal with this well they countered this concept of justification by faith alone with an appeal to James chapter 2 verse 24 it reads you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone now Roman Catholic scholars say to Protestants can the Bible make it any clearer here you are going around teaching the justification is by faith alone and yet we have a statement right from the Apostle James that says quote you see then that justification is by works and not by faith alone and what's more not only does James say the justification is by works and not by faith alone but he appeals to Abraham to prove his point the very historical figure that the Apostle Paul appealed to in his stating his case of justification by faith in Romans 4 now does this mean we have an irreconcilable contradiction between the two Apostles are they teaching different doctrines this is the point that we're going to discuss in the debate starting next week instead of explaining it all I want you to hear how the men approached this Roman Catholicism issues and evidences visible exam Protestants agree that the merits of Christ are necessary for a man to receive justification but we're Catholics and Protestants disagree is how do the merits of Christ become mine Catholicism teaches that there is a preparation of the sinner before he can be justified then there is the moment of baptism when justification itself takes place followed by a lifetime of becoming more justified the preparation before justification begins with God who gives provenience grace this prevenient grace also called sanctifying grace are the habitus of grace is a power God infuses into this this power begins to transform and change the person internally so that he comes to know he is a sinner begins to consider God's mercy develops hope and trusts and loves God meritoriously during this preparatory period the sinner realizes he can accept or reject God's grace if he freely a sense to cooperate with God's grace he will be further inclined to detest his sins and desire to be baptized and receive justification as the council of trent stated sinners assenting to cooperate with god's grace are then disposed to convert themselves to their own justification this means that when a man decides to cooperate with God's power within him he can live a life sufficient enough to merit what catholicism calls congruous merit merit that makes it fitting for God to bestow justification on him Catholics are quick to point out that they have never taught that a sinner in his own strength can merit justification but Catholicism does teach that in cooperation with Christ's strength the sinner can live a life that is meritorious enough that it makes it congruous are fitting for God to grant justification for Catholicism then the merits of Christ caused the sanctifying grace God gives us which if we cooperate with it we are made personally righteous within it is this inward personal righteousness which is the real ground and reason for man's justification in Catholicism then on the basis of this real transformation at the moment of baptism God forgives original sin and all actual sins and grants justification in addition Trent said there are degrees of justification which vary according to the gift of God and man's dispositions and cooperation with grace Trent also said indeed the good works of the justified man are not mere signs of his religious conversion rather being done in grace they are themselves the causes of an increase in the degree and reality of man's sanctification and finally Tran said to those who work well until the end and trust in God eternal life is to be offered both as a grace and as a reward promised by God himself to be given to their good works and merits because man's cooperation with God's grace will always be imperfect and painted with sinful acts that might destroy justification throughout his life man can only hope he will be finally justified and cannot enjoy the certainty he is going to be in heaven on the other hand for Protestants justification is not God's judgment based on the personal righteousness within the believer rather justification is God's judgment based on the righteousness of Christ in whom the sinner believes in Protestantism justification is an act of God's grace a judicial declaration acquitting the center of guilt and delivering him from condemnation it's a free forgiveness of sins and a sure title to eternal life the transformed life is vital in Protestant theology but it is not that which justifies a man rather the transformed life comes as the immediate result of being justified which Protestants call sanctification Protestants believe man cannot merit justification in his own strength are merited by working in cooperation with God's prevenient grace if he could salvation wouldn't be totally the gift of God rather Protestants teach that through faith the sinner reaches out to Christ and the merits of Christ are imputed are transferred from Jesus's account so to speak to the account of the sinner God sees the sinner and Jesus together and makes a legal declaration about the sinners life it is like the person who is condemned waiting on death row suddenly being granted a pardon God pardons the sinner that is he declares him to be free from the penalty of all his sins and grants him eternal life Protestants believe it is solely the merits of Christ sacrificial death on the cross which are imputed are transferred to the believer that cancel out the sinners death that's why for Protestants justification is an act that can take place in a single moment the moment the sinner through faith asks for the benefits of Christ to be applied to his life Catholicism denies that such a legal declaration concerning justification takes place the Council of Trent stated if anyone says that men are justified by the sole imputation of the Justice of Christ let him be anathema but in response Protestants insists that justification can only be by faith alone since the Bible teaches Christ provided all that is necessary for God to justify a person Protestants do not believe faith is a merit Turia's work that God looks at as the reason are the basis for a person's justification rather faith is only the instrument which allows someone to reach out to Christ who is the sole reason and grounds upon which God justifies a person can have a weak faith but still be fully justified because his justification depends solely on Christ it does not depend on the amount of his faith however Roman Catholics believe that more than faith is needed in order for a person to obtain justification they insist there must be both faith and works the Council of Trent declared anyone says that the good works of the justified person does not truly merit an increase of grace and the obtaining of eternal life let him be anathema so tonight does the doctrine of justification in the Bible call for faith alone in Christ our faith plus works john's guests our father mitchell taqwa an ordained roman catholic priest who is a member of the society of jesus a Jesuit he has an earned doctorate Alafia degree and is currently a professor at Loyola University in Chicago John's second guest is dr. Walter Martin director and founder of the Christian Research Institute in California please join it for this discussion and gentlemen we're glad that you're here tonight I'd like to start with an area that divided the church and brought about the prostitute Reformation namely the issue of justification by faith and final Ataka let me come to you on this one to start with no Roman Catholic scholar would teach that a sinner can be justified before God because of his own works right apparently that's right against the plagues and at the same time no Roman scholar would teach to quote can a knight of the Council of Trent that by faith alone the sinner is justified in effect so according to the Roman Church what is the basis that a man is justified before God okay um the Council of Trent you know is trying to do a couple things number things keep the scriptures in balance rather than take one text and say that the salvation is based on that - wait a minute what else is going on here okay okay the rest of all the problem is that people are separated from God because of the sin of Adam we all share in the sin of Adam saying secondly be you know how is that done by the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ his passion is the source of all merit for human beings to be safe okay now the issue of justification is how does that merit of Jesus Christ sent by God in the right time get applied to the individual sentence now that the couple the number of different situations in which the person has to ask that question one of them is to the adult convert and the adult convert will be one who has two things to happen first before you can even start the process of justification the call of God and the direction the directing of God to be saved is primary before human can even think of being saved God has to initiate salvation okay and in this fight again by Christ and by giving great will recall in an easing a latin term present grace into the soul before the person could even start to think about salvation is called by God then the human being of his or her own freewill can or cannot respond to that and this is where the reach with Protestants Luther and Calvin both taught that you your will is incapable of making a decision freely to accept God's grace you can accept with our understanding of Luther and Calvin and Protestants who adhere to that teaching is that the human will is so completely corrupt and perverse that it cannot even choose God's grace unless God's grace makes that person accept God's grace whereas Catholicism says no God's grace is first and as we're essential but at one point or other the human has to say I choose Jesus Christ or I do not choose him at that point then not me if you believe and accept that salvation of Christ and America Jesus Christ then that person is made a member of the body of Christ a member of Jesus and is saved you know for Christ but at the same time as Saint James says faith alone is not enough faith without good works is insufficient because the justification that the Catholic Church talks about is not as Luther caught nearly imputed that is it's a Luther positivism that that's erasing his image is great don't don't tell me so much about Luther tell me what you believe what happens included image gets at the difference he said the human being each person was a pile of dung and Christ's grace covers that pile of dung like a carving of snow the Catholic Church says no it's not merely a an implication that simply covers over the factory is still dung and underneath but rather justification also includes that sanctification and the transformation the recreation of the whole person into Christ so sanctifying grace has to precede justification it's not in proceeded in justification that they think of a cait and again you understand sanctifying Grace's it's Paul then it's not sanctifying grace is not some created grace sanctifying grace is the description or the activity of the Holy Spirit the way the Holy Spirit works inside the human soul to transform the soul into a new creation that is sanctifying grace and for person to be justified that process has to be entered into before Walter responds would you tell us what it means to have congruous merit that the center is working in cooperation with the habitus of grace and that the congress of merit takes place what does that actually mean okay as the person is part of Christ okay and and is entering into this relationship Christ approaches him and starts to turn him to himself and also enters inside the person enters inside he don't have defied yet he's not just a budget office adjustment okay so there's a line we're going on here then what takes place and then at that point the person continues to respond to that grace by using his or her own free will okay and what is the basis upon which God what when does he apply the justification well he hasn't done it yet now so when's he going to do it ultimately the justification is not something that happens at one moment in a person's life okay one that is not a quick man of assumes bug when does God make a declaration justifying the man what was the ground okay here he's one at the point again here's one of the issues that's a difference we don't limit justification to mean the remission of sins understood meaning when when the person could separate sin and ask no in faith for the merits of the Passion of Christ of your giveth then the sins are forgiven but that's just part of the process of justification then the continued transformation all that person's life so justification is quantitative amounts of justification as a matter of fact in a trench set that you can you know because of what scripture says when st. Paul speaks things we are led from glory to glory from virtue to virtue and I know if you are just then be justified still in revelation 22 that you continue to grow in justification according to Scripture so there's actually if I can reframe your theologians okay yeah what you're saying is that the process begins the man responds okay and because of the love to God God recognizes that the man is just because God has made him just and he agrees with that this is this congruous merit that God recognized and on the basis of that the process of justification begins but Rome would say and you're an anthem according to Trent if a man says that he has justification in the sense that I now know my sins are completely forgiven that I've arrived that I have been declared before God without sin their courts quantitative and I have to continue to progress and therefore we take the sacraments and go on and hope that we will attain eternal life with Trent teachers is not that you can doubt that your significant you have to have faith in your sins are forgiven by clot yeah but you say nobody can go well well what these know you can we mitten why don't like it Trent nobody can know you're an anthemic you say you know what you are now from up there saying is the sin of presumption well you know that I am saved or and that's it what I'm saying that I'm always saved that is the return calls attendant presumption and I agree that rather you know that your sins are forgiven all right I know and if you can when your instance all when you confess your sins you get baptized or the various points where you was it with the fat one or without you can you also baptized by desire but at the point where you accept Christ and his power to forgive your sins are forgiven but as you continue to live you still have to continue to make that choice because and which result is not the power of Christ and this one of the things that Protestants constantly misunderstand they think that we believe that we have no for less space in the merit of price or in the power of price to save us on the contrary what we believe is that we don't trust ourselves to continue to be paid for all our lives at this moment I believe and this at this moment I am just before Christ my sins are forgiven brother I will stay that way in the next 10 years or next 5 minutes okay that is another that is something that will be up to my free will to continue except the great I summarize what I think I heard you say yeah that's right and Walter you need to jump in here and that is God opposes the center and infuses into him spiritual life the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ starts so that the sinner can respond but he's not yet justified he is starting but the justification that we here at Trent takes place when God recognizes man's response man must respond this congruous merit okay and with this merit God seeing that then justifies the person quantitatively enough so that he can say that my sins are being forgiven he cannot say it in the sense that he has been totally he has totally arrived because many things were going to discuss okay but can we stop there for the basic definition of what you're saying by justification by faith only with one addition to make sure that you know and this is one of the things I would miss the board in college but don't say this that that process of justification is not simply some legal process it's the entrance into a personal relationship with the persons of affinity you see the word justification not taking place outside of the person but it must take place inside the person that whole concept right there you differ with the Protestant church right because of the presence of the Holy Spirit okay now Walter with that body of information I'd like you to jump in and give us the other side and why and please backing up the scripture well I think first of all in context the word justification is a legal term about that there can be no doubt in the usage of it in Romans 4 5 6 and 8 that there can be no doubt about that it is illegally in context it's legal in context a man before God secondly Luther I think should be recognized as not speaking ex cathedra and his his illustration of his illustration of the the pile of dung in the snow and so forth it's a lovely picture of covering over things what Luther did not ever teach that there was not a transformation of the individual whole argument and a bondage of the will is that man is incapable in his own merit of reaching for God that it is the grace of God which brings salvation to him as an act of love God's mercy then men have the capability to respond to God because otherwise he couldn't become a new creation man does respond Luca doesn't knock out grace the point is that Luther's emphasis was on the transformation of the person and he cited very heavily the argument of Paul that if anyone be in Christ and he gets in Christ by grace in Christ through faith which enables him to have the justification so you are saved by grace says Luther by grace and grace alone and this comes through faith which God through that grace makes possible for you to exercise objectively in the Lord Jesus then you are justified as an act outside with an infusion of that grace in the transforming process of the life of sanctification of the life now the point that we want to get to without cutting through all the theological gobbledygook is and you got to at a moment ago like on the button namely the concept of whether or not a person now is objectively justified by faith or justified by faith and works very important so what I would like to do is to leave the rarefied atmosphere of theology and get to the simplicity of Scripture on a subject which to me is the refreshing breath of air after all the theologians and there's no doubt about the fact that you have irreconcilable contradiction between Romans core and James - unless since both of them are using the illustration of Abraham they are coming at justification from two different focal points okay the first being this what then shall we say about Abraham our forefather what did he find out if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God what do the scriptures say Abraham extrinsic believed God and it was counted as righteousness for him that's external not entitlement that's an act a legal act now to the one who works his wages is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due him but to the one who does not work but believed in him who justifies the ungodly that's up his faith is counted as righteousness the infusion of transforming grace blessed is the man to whom the Lord reckons righteousness apart from works no works at all righteousness by faith Abraham before Abraham ever raised the knife / I detect and brought it down he was justified God system now Abraham was justified here is a Protestant position Abraham was justified by faith before God because God could see the heart transformed by that graceless James is talking about how do you demonstrate that to the world you demonstrated by the fact that he raised the knife and started down with it so men who cannot see the act of God counting us righteous can only see that it exists by the works which proclaimeth Abraham therefore is justified by works on the basis of what the obey God prepared to sacrifice before us but he's justified before the Lord and based that God saw his heart long before so the justification is to fold us bifurcated it's salvation by grace through faith justification legally before God extrinsic outside of mankind and then the infusion of that grace transforms into the new creation in Christ Jesus and begins the process which we call sanctification what Trent did was confused sanctification and justification and made the justification process which was extrinsic to man part of his internal nature and instead substitute of sanctification as a means of marriage before recording insert pilot pocket finish it up what the ramifications are in terms of why a person then can know in terms of what we're talking about right now to come with conclusion when the New Testament addresses this subject as a whole Paul's whole argument romans 4 not of works by righteousness by faith therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ the whole argument of romans 4 or 5 8 is it now Romans 7 deals with what you're talking about namely a wretched man that I am who should deliver me from the body of this death because I'm serving God and yet I'm a pile of dung because I send said but Paul's whole argument why am I going to get out of this mess right Jesus Christ going to deliver me and Paul arguments and Jan's argument to me was conclusive John says to the church in first John chapter 5 these things I write to you he can never say this unless the doctor Jessica K whereas I stated it these things I write to you little children who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life now how could a man know that he had internal life that he had passed out of death into life if he had not been justified by faith he couldn't the whole idea of the New Testament and the whole idea the Reformation was look you cannot get right standing with God by human effort or by any saturable system you're going to get it by a relationship to Christ and you said that yesterday very forcefully you said you were trying to teach people not what but who and that the core of Christianity was a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit by which we know we had passed out of death into life now this is the Kochs of a Reformation when the Reformers said you are justified by faith they were not trying to say the sinful nature was eradicated or men's who didn't need it I don't know it was saying that respect they were saying this is what God did for you you can't do it to yourself saying this is the point that I think we have to recognize the moment that she take Trent's position and really RAM at home.you runs smack into Romans four and you run smack in the first John which tell you Christ is the propitiation for all our sins and not for ours only for the sins of the whole world whatever text books are quoted in print Wow and in the thing that's all a couple things on that um first of all I don't agree with Trent that it's not a confusion of justification sanctification you know that to see that this is you know because it is part of a relationship but you cannot but you're not going to make the mistake of making justification romans 4 which is an act of God right you are in Saddles absolutely make that as something intrinsic to man because he infuses great interest then you got sanctification and justification as two parts of the same thing well and that's I guess exactly what is exactly what Trent did I know and that's exactly what I agree with we have been redeemed in Christ absolutely have been justified by faith absolutely okay the justification by works which you're referring to is progressive in the life of the believer as a result of sanctification because it's the spirit that works in us to transform us into the image of Christ absolutely listen because of that we are able to perform good works well I would see where Trent says something different except in saying that that is the same process of justification well let me give you Trent and see if we can define it here anyone says by faith alone the sinner is justified in such wise as to mean that nothing else is required which is what Walter is saying yeah okay nothing on our part is required Jesus did it all it doesn't depend on us or what God does in us at that point it depends on Jesus okay friends is saying if anyone says with my faith alone the sinner is justified in such wise is to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate the man's got to cooperate in order for the obtaining of the grace of justification that man's to be an anthem on we're saying that man does not have to do something in cooperation to have God justify him you don't have to say yes to the grace are you but you have to say yes to the grace of Christ or not I would say for by grace are you saved through faith um you would have to make that active faith by your will yes that is something that you are doing that is your will by grace by grace prevenient grace but it is your will doing it it is Christ that gives us the command to repent yeah but if God doesn't jiggle your will err by grace and that you aren't going to do it and again the Council of Trent does not teach otherwise let me give you an example here let's let's stick with the actual teachings of the Catholic Church I'm Walter are you saying this if anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ are you saying that are you saying that a man is justified by the sole imputation of the Justice of Christ Romans core absolutely okay Trent says that man's an anthem oh okay what did they mean by the reputation not the way he was explaining it I don't agree with what your explanation is but I know what you're saying but he was I think the don't like you word there is imputation okay imputation in other words that they're saying that it's just something that is you know put over you in a legal way there's a simple declaration in the way that the anonymous for others philosophers just would impute something to a person where the Catholic Church is trying to say instead of imputation it's rather a transformation of the inner person that and that thing I think we agree that the grab-o-copter saying that we and okay what we're saying is is that what the scripture exactly in Romans 3 and 4 is saying if God is saying something different than current at that point then we should stick with the scripture everyone here we've done it that's the only Scripture but that's not the only scripture I see nothing that's precise on their own Catholic Church let me let me put the other way I think that and that's precisely Roman Catholic Church let me let me put the other way is the fact is that is that pastors have at least a explanation that I think that Walter well you haven't given the one on James to yet but there's an explanation for James to okay and that will reconcile that with Romans three and four okay I have never heard a Roman Catholic reconcile Romans three and four ah okay did you um read the rest of the chapters in that succession of ten because one of the things that explicitly that they do is deal with those texts si si first of all they quote no Romans 3:24 in Gnome chapter seven you know and say that the traditional in our understanding of Romans three are being justified freely by grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus okay and also 5:1 that having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have had access by faith into this grace but but worth it now the way they deal with that in this in the same paragraph is we are justified by faith because faith is the beginning of human salvation the foundation and the root of all justification let's stop right out which lets impossible to please valid question is is it a beginning transaction or is it a final transaction I think that's movie disagree right that's just the point what you just read hey here's the beginning of the transaction right mm-hmm know what by grace past tense you have already been saved through faith not by yourselves not by anything working in you nothing like that no transformation in you you have been saved by grace outside yourself which reaches down redeems you and then justifies you and the transformation of the Spirit coming into us in the new birth makes us in the image of Christ we become new creations and cry Jesus what what sue me what Travis thing is that faith is the beginning of the transaction of justification but what the text is saying is that salvation is by grace that's the initial act of God grace precedes promotion mercy precedes from loving the nature of God right now we're transformed by the power of grace that's why the emphasis in Ephesians 2 is by grace you have already been saved you're not working for this Catholic catechism here since Vatican 2 specifically says the poor wrong and I just I just cannot understand how Trent or they can say it could if we follow Christ we shall never place anyone or anything above God right we shall love and serve him alone right and in doing this we shall save our soul we shall earn heaven we shall have happiness with God forever but if you can earn heaven if righteousness comes by the efforts of them Paul says Christ died for nothing you know at the same time Christ in for instance in Matthew chapter 6 you know talked about you hadn't merits no merits prize you're fasting merits by prayer merit merits by almsgiving and Jesus himself use of that term then is there not necessarily some form of merit can I can I ask a question and we work in a vinick already Rick know what is the context of Matthew 6 to whom is it address specifically he's addressing it to the disciples in the context of the crowd to explain how not to pray how not to give alms and all not to say all of it is in the context of Judaism as it was then abused right right even though we're moving out of the concept of law the Covenant of law which emphasized meritorious behavior okay job was a righteous man why so now let me believe God buddy also offered sacrifices he prayed for his children Marit Marit Marit Marit but your whole viewpoint changes in the new test because you are no longer under a covenant of law as where the Jews now you're in the covenant of grace grace does not exclude obedience to God but grace is what redeems not the concept of piling up merits okay and again Trent in the same paragraph says that to know it said we are we are sent to justified gratuities gratuitously because none of the things that precede justification whether faith or works merit the grace of justification but by the but we don't what you're teaching Catholicism that you can merit the great adjustable the grace of justification at all and transpacific Lear ejects that but there is room for merit because you keep Christ themselves but now does that room but then you need to merit properly but man Asami's of areas wrong but not as a means of redemption that's what they say here or it does not know greatest any pity doesn't if it doesn't mean then the act of justification itself outside of man is sufficient if you can't do anything to improve justification what God did in Romans 4 with Abraham is caput is over and here again that the term justification is again will be disagreements right is that they just defined the term justification to include the axe' of love without which you cannot know God the unusually it was my obeying the commandment it was my point yeah they what they did was under justification which Paul doesn't do he keeps identification separately after redemption not as a means of what at the same time says that unless you have those acts of sanctification you cannot be saved because they're the fruit or the evidence of the justifications necessary to be saved no a correct no you can't you can you know God without love no you cannot know God love and you cannot fulfill the will of God or the law of God without love and can you know Christ without obeying laws Commandments yeah because you do it all every day your life and so do I know what is Jesus himself those no no no don't don't get him out of context many bad you'll love me keep my Commandments he keeps my Commandments is he that loves many things but he made provision for the fact that we as mortals obviously in recent otherwise you wouldn't be hearing confessions that's right all right so people thing you get that solution the name of Christ right right because because they're imperfect that's right their failures they're sinners like everybody else right you and I are too right so our salvation is by grace yes through faith yes and on to the production of works which testify to what God did for us not what we did for ourselves and where we disagree is suffice it there because we we understand the Scriptures to also say that those obey taxable readings to the commandments are part of that process of justification provides if we admit that at any point if we you know it's against their life like first John five makes a distinction in different kinds of sin but if one commits serious sin one can cut oneself off from Christ and you know thereby lose one's justification but that's the iminium position I'm familiar with this might not my point yeah my point is deeper than that position the point that I'm trying to make is that if we're justified by pretty by grace we're justified by faith if we're transformed by the power of God we become new creations in Christ if all of this takes place it is by God's grace now if you're going to say if you're going to go on from there as Trent does and talk about the act of sanctification and obedience to the commandments of God means of what you really got a dead ends because the scripture says in James which you're fond of quoting whosoever offended in one point of the law is guilty of all now you haven't committed adultery even but you lied you're guilty of the law the whole thing comes crashing down on your head now what is sin but transgression of the law all unrighteousness is sent you and I and everybody else professing Christians perform acts of unrighteousness in different categories whether mortal or venial we transgress the law right by transgressing the law we testify that the law is holy righteous just and good and that salvation has to be by grace because we ain't keeping it in again right captain right because ethics goes can i that is by grace in any great surprise but the thing that we have difficulty in going with you to say that I can claim to be saved is Paul the great teacher of faith refuses to claim that he's sane he won't keep that about himself he said it was my Hamilton for instance in the first letter of Paul for the currency yeah chapter 9 I know in whom I have believed and I'm persuaded he's able to keep what I've committed to him against that day neither death nor life angels principalities nor powers hike nor death anything in all creation shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord that's security the one the one thing that he doesn't include in that list is himself and that's why I am persuaded no no he doesn't include himself as one of the things that can keep him from separated from Christ so he says here in 1st Corinthians 9 but I do not run so uncertainly so that I and I don't fight like one who beats the air but i keep under keep my body on subjection bringing into subjection lest by any means if they're having preached to others i myself and disapprove and can you add so i disagree i don't think he's saying that I think it's worth winning and I'm not arguing Calvinists and I'm simply saying I don't think that a man who writes multiple passages in his 13 epistles about what it is to pass out of death into life yes what it is to be justified by grace justified by faith and you keeps using the word saved in the past tense yeah I can't believe that the man in one verse is going to say less by myself after having done all of this I'm now unsaved well and the thing that that's again where we disagree that can't say both and this one visible kind of being simplest on the roof keeping the crazy balance that you know Capistrano do that yes you have to have confidence in Christ and to commit despair is a sin and to save the despair of price in any way is something that we do not know advocate at all but at the same time like Paul who is concerned that he'd be disqualified or or don't take a know what Catholic from the race or disapproved that we also have to say you know I cannot be confident that I am faithful now or will always these things are we're not lost there in the grid disapproved from already through the main loss it doesn't mean look no such but it does not mean win even okay we have a final wrap-up statement from both here I let you go longer than we shouldn't I want to final wrap-up statements how they talk okay the thing that I would say is that you know Catholicism is trying to protect two things on one hand the first and foremost birth of Christ as absolutely essential and human will to be able to accept that great and then I get the third thing to see that this process of justification is one of complete transformation of the person and until we meet Christ that can't be positive they were saying but we neither should be despair of it you know they can't be in despair easily Walter Catholicism carried to its logical conclusion is a denial of justification by faith in the context of Romans four and five because it involves works as a means of merit the Roman Catholic doctrine itself teaches that man cooperates by faith and works for redemption whereas biblical theology says it's by grace we have been saved through faith not by ourselves as the gift of God not by works lest anyone should boast so for me to carry it to a logical conclusion I having gone to Catholic schools as you have and been trained in it know perfectly well that I was taught and I'm sure you were to that you have faith in Jesus Christ and you work like a beaver because if you don't purgatory yeah ELISA yeah hi with Hatlen let's get into our elite thanks for joining gotta catch it again next week [Music]

Channel: Veritas Dipolog

Views: 3,060

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Justification by Faith, Faith Alone, Justification by Faith Alone, Catholic, Protestant

Id: 0bhvGDiZG5M

Length: 70min 1sec (4201 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 27 2017