Debate: Are Temples Consistent with New Testament Christianity?

the following presentation is a production of alpha and omega ministries incorporated and is protected by copyright laws of the united states and its international treaties copying or distribution of this production without the expressed written permission of alpha and omega ministries incorporated is prohibited and is our privilege to have you here this evening hopefully some other folks will be making their way here but we're going to go ahead and get started it is our hope here this evening to have a formal respectful debate about what the differences are between lds and evangelical positions i ask that you treat everyone with respect that you hold all applause or other shows of support or discussed or whatever else might be motivating you and at the end that we applaud both speakers it is a privilege to have men of their caliber to appear at a event like this and so i hope that you will show respect to both of our speakers we're going to begin with 20-minute opening statements the subject that we have here this evening is are temples consistent with new testament christianity we're going to have after the opening statements 10 minutes of rebuttal that'll take us until just past 8 o'clock we'll take a very short break restrooms are out this way and if you need to make use of those please be as quick as you can because we need to start back as soon as possible when we rejoin we will start with the questions between the speakers cross-examination for 15 minutes each then we'll have five-minute closing statements and then we'll have questions from the audience there are three by five cards on which you can submit your questions you can give them to me during the break or you can give them to me immediately before the question period i'm going to make my best effort to be fair in picking through those questions and alternating between our speakers as a perk to sponsoring this debate we would like to tell you just a little bit about our church there are some brochures up here at the front that will tell you about us we are a congregation of the orthodox presbyterian denomination we are a church that tries to stress seriousness about god and his word seriousness about our relationship with him particularly in terms of worship and a seriousness about our relationships with one another we have services here in salt lake on sunday mornings we also have midweek bible studies we have evening services in provo we have a church planner who's arriving in less than three weeks who will be taking over that mission work and will be introducing morning worship in provo in a matter of a few months lord willing will be starting evening services up in logan in september so if you know of anyone looking for a church that holds to the historic doctrines of the reformation we encourage you to point them towards our church i have been asked enough questions that i think that it's good to point out that we are very much in sympathy with dr white we are a reformed church that came as a surprise to some of the people that have been to the debates but that's the reason that we keep having him here it is a great privilege to have him and richard hopkins appear with us this evening dr hopkins is a graduate of ucla has a juris doctorate he was a trial attorney for over 20 years in california he is a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints and has written two books dealing with lds apologetics the first is biblical mormonism responding to evangelical criticisms of lds theology the second is how greek philosophy corrupted the christian concept of god we also have with us dr james white he is the director of alpha and omega ministries in phoenix arizona he is an elder in the reformed baptist church his church holds to a statement of faith nearly identical to our own he is the author of roughly 20 books now or maybe even more more than 20 books it's hard to keep up but those titles include letters to a mormon elder the same-sex controversy potter's freedom and the god who justifies this is i believe the ninth debate that dr white has done for us and the second time that dr hopkins has appeared representing the lds position it's a great privilege to have them with us and so i'll begin with dr hopkins taking the affirmative on the question are temples consistent with new testament christianity i want to thank pastor jason wallace and the christ presbyterian church for the opportunity to be here today and i appreciate all of you coming out and going through the trouble of finding this location um the topic uh is an interesting one our temple is consistent with new testament christianity we look back at the history of the world as much as we know of it and we note that pagans built temples uh that they named for their various gods so it's not unusual if we start to wonder whether uh temples were ever consistent with any of god's teachings why did god command israel to build temples in the first place um was he copying the pagans uh of course we would reject that perhaps he was the pagans were copying an early earlier um era of of people of god who are building temples well whatever the purpose of the true and living god in commanding temples to be built in israel anciently our question here really is did god change and in the new testament stop change his purpose with respect to having temples now dr white has made some claims regarding these issues and i will attempt to address some of those claims uh he's made those claims in writing so i i know of them already and and and i think it would be helpful if i addressed some of them but uh we should remember that as each of us discusses this our statements may seem of necessity somewhat speculative and that is because we have to face the reality that there is very little we know very little about temples from the bible uh we know in general things but we don't know details uh we still have some information that is useful to us though and i'd like to look over that tonight the first subject that i'd like to go with is the location of the temple now dr white has written that god quote allowed his people to build a single temple only one and in located in jerusalem that's a quote but let's look at this um a little bit more uh fully in deuteronomy 16 verses 2 and 6 the lord commanded israel to quote sacrifice the passover unto the lord thy god in the place which the lord shall choose to place his name there verse 5 indicates that this is a special place because it says quote thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates quote you can't do it at your house this is something that's supposed to be done in a place which the lord places his name which we would call a temple um now this commandment was given long before the temple of solomon was built so uh and yet the passover was sacrificed annually every year after israel left egypt except for times of apostasy until the temple was destroyed where did this sacrifice take place before the temple in jerusalem was built well this is important to know because wherever it took place that must have been the place that the lord chose to place his name and hence could be considered a temple we know a few of these places from the bible the first year after they left egypt the passover was sacrificed in the wilderness in sinai this is sinai this is numbers 9-5 you can find that while israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years god commanded them to build the tabernacle now the tabernacle is referred to specifically as quote the temple of the lord unquote in first samuel versus uh chapter one verse nine and chapter three verse three but even after israel settled in the promised land the tabernacle was not kept at jerusalem uh in fact we know that when israel first entered the promised land they offered the crossover at gilgal this is joshua 5 10. of course when the temple of solomon was built it was dedicated as quote the place of which thou has said my name shall be there unquote and that's first kings 8 29 however in 2nd chronicles 7 12 it says that quote the lord appeared to solomon by night and said unto him i have heard thy prayer and have chosen this place the temple of solomon to myself for an house of sacrifice unquote notice that he said in house of sacrifice not the house of sacrifice not the exclusive house of sacrifice the language leaves open the probability of other temple locations the bible indicates that there were many other places where authorized sacrifices were offered to the lord what was basically required was an altar see exodus 20 verse 24. in fact the specifications for a sacrificial art altar are given in exodus 20 25 and 26 and in joshua 8 31. joshua built such an altar in mount paul and offered sacrifice that's in joshua 8 30. um gideon was specifically commanded of the lord to build an altar in ophra of the abzurites and to offer sacrifice that's in judges chapter 6 verses 21-27 he was told to build the altar in a specific location quote upon the top of this rock in the ordered place unquote that's judges 6 26 of course there was an altar built where the tabernacle was located and for many generations after israel entered the promised land the tabernacle was kept in in shiloh you can see joshua 18 1 and first samuel 4 30 3-5 and verse 11 for that and it is said in tribute to elkanah the righteous father of samuel that he quote went up out of his city yearly to worship and to sacrifice unto the lord of hosts in shiloh for samuel versus uh chapter one verse three but even while the temple was in shiloh samuel offered sacrifice in gilgal where saul was crowned and that's first samuel 11 13-14 david offered sacrifice with his family in bethlehem first samuel 20 verse 6. and before he built the temple in jerusalem solomon offered quote a thousand burned offerings unquote upon the altar in gibeon this is in first kings 3 4. now when david kept the ark at kirjath grm and moved the tabernacle to gibeon he left priests to minister and to offer burnt offerings in both locations first current uh first chronicles 16 37-42 after the temple in jerusalem was built the people went through various apostasies they started worshiping pagan gods and built unauthorized temples outside of jerusalem these unauthorized temples were closed by some of the later more righteous kings including hezekiah and josiah each of whom kept passovers in jerusalem see uh second chronicles chapters 33 and 35. but second chronicles 33 17 implies that in consolidating all sacrifice to jerusalem hezekiah may have also closed some places outside of jerusalem which had authorized sacrifices being made to the lord you can see king's second kings 18 22 and isaiah 36 7 on that much later in the prophecy repeated in nehemiah chapter 1 verses 8 9 the lord promises to gather israel to quote the place that i have chosen to set my name there unquote this was after the temple had been rebuilt and israel had been gathered back to jerusalem from babylon so the passage here refers to the latter-day return of the jews to a temple there are many other prophecies and references in the old testament that speak of latter-day temples for example ezekiel versus chapters 40 through 47 isaiah 2 verses 2 and 3 which are repeated in micah 4 1-2 zechariah 14 and verses 16-21 and even second thessalonians 2 4 in the new testament looking at all of this all of these scriptures together we can see why the lord always seemed to refer in general terms the location of his temple he referred to it as the place that i have chosen to set my name there as the circumstances of israel changed he knew there was going to be different places that they would need temples and after solomon's temple appears that circumstances may have justified additional temples elsewhere in israel as well but in the last days the temples will be built in israel and other places that are not specifically stated in the bible so we do not feel that we should put god in a box claiming that jerusalem is the only location he can ever put a temple god has spoken generally about the place where his temples will be located and we feel that we should not restrict his options so now dr white has also written quote the temple in israel had one primary function the worship of god through the offering of sacrifices now of course sacrifice was certainly one function performed in the temples but was it the one primary function of the temple well sacrifices were not performed inside the tabernacle specifically nor were they performed in the holy of holies in the temple of solomon no there were offerings made there though in blood offerings but what was the purpose of these inner rooms the temple and and what about the upper chambers of the temple that were referred to in second chronicles 3 and 9. what took place in these temples we have no indication specifically from the bible but certainly they would have been entirely unnecessary if the one primary function of the temple was sacrificed so let's take a look at the bible see if we can determine from scripture some of the other uses uh of the temple that were made by the people luke 24 tells us that after christ spent 40 days instructing his disciples following his resurrection he told them to quote tarry ye in the city of jerusalem until ye be endowed with power from on high unquote that's luke 24 49 he then left them and was quote carried up into heaven verse 51 verses 52 and 53 say that in response to his command quote they worshipped him and returned to jerusalem with great joy and were continually in the temple praising and blessing god this suggests that the apostles understood that the temple was the place they should go to be endowed from on high it was also indicates that praising and blessing god is one of the the activities that is occurs in the temple psalms 11 4 which is quoted in habakkuk 2 20 says quote the lord is in his holy temple unquote isaiah 6 1 says quote i saw also the lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up and his train filled the temple unquote thus israel understood that the temple was god's house on earth and that he visited it so clear was this understanding that psalm 18 6 says god quote heard my voice out of his temple unquote isaiah 66 verse 6 also refers to the voice of the lord coming from the temple from this we learn that hearing seeing or even talking with god is a reason for the temples in psalms 27 4 the psalmist prays quote that i may dwell in the house of the lord all the days of my life to behold the beauty of the lord and to inquire in his temple unquote this suggests that people went to the temple to make inquiries about the lord that is what christ was doing in the temple when he was but a child luke 2 46 says that his parents found him quote in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors both hearing them and asking them questions unquote psalm 29 9 says it quote in his temple doth everyone speak of his glory unquote this also suggests teaching an inquiry of course during his ministry christ regularly taught in the temple we see that from matthew 26 55 mark 12 35 john 7 14 and 8 20. note that in acts 3 peter teaches the people about christ when he is in the portion of the temple called solomon's porch and in acts 5 19-20 an angel opened the prison doors to the apostles and commanded them to quote go stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life unquote in response they quote entered into the temple early in the morning and taught unquote teaching about god and christ then is another reason for temples amos 8 3 refers to the songs of the temple unquote this suggests that singing was an activity that occurred in the temple another one that dr white has recognized specifically is prayers prayers were offered in the temple and indeed jonah 2 7 refers to prayer coming to god quote in thine holy temple unquote christ referred to the temple as the house of prayer specifically matthew 21 13 mark 11 17 acts 3 1 says that peter and john went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer being the ninth hour unquote this suggests that prayer was a special activity scheduled at a specific separate time paul prayed in the temple acts 22 17 and while praying in the temple paul received a vision of christ acts 22 17-21 thus we see that prayer was a very important part of temple activity the bible refers to purification rituals being performed in the temple for example ii chronicles 30 29 nehemiah 12 45 paul mentions that he was quote found quote purified in the temple neither with multitude nor with tumult unquote acts 24 18 his point was that he was there not to profane the temple nor to teach the multitudes about christ on that occasion but simply to perform this purification ordinance see acts 21 through verse 26 the bible also refers to washings in the temple regarding aaron and his sons this is in exodus 29 4 chapter 30 verses 18 through 21 chapter 40 12 and 30. now leviticus 16 4 and 24 required all priests to wash themselves quote in the holy place unquote before putting on the quote holy garments unquote moses was commanded to quote take the levites from among the children of israel and cleanse them unquote and this was the first thing he was to do in order to cleanse them quote sprinkle water of purifying upon them that's numbers eight five through seven these washings were associated with the purification rituals mentioned above and in numbers 19 19-20 in fact in solomon's temple there was a sea it was called which a large basin that was quote for the priests to wash in unquote and that's second chronicles 4 6. the fact that these washings involved all who came into the temple is suggested in psalms 26 6 which says quote i will wash my hands in innocency so will i compass thine altar oh lord what do we know about these other aspects of temple worship well very little appears in sacred writ i've pretty much told you all that is there just now summarized it some very early christian groups claimed to have temple knowledge and wrote some of it down these groups were called gnostics because of their claims to know these extra-biblical details but these groups were heretical and a great many respects and so their information though what is interesting is unreliable the masons today claim to have some of this information passed down to them from through their grand masters but can we rely on their information i don't think so uh we don't think so but we can learn from these sources that there were things done in the temple that were instituted by the lord and although they are referred to the details were not made public in holy grid these details were lost or perverted over the centuries but they were important to new christian new testament christians they're early christians otherwise these early christians including the apostles themselves would not have spent so much time in the temple how do we get accurate information about these details today i suggest there is only one source that we can rely on and that is revelation from god he is the source to whom joseph smith went and he is the sole source for what is practiced in lds temples today those who are familiar with lds to humble ordinances however do recognize numerous subtle references to temple practices that remain both in the scriptures and in the less reliable writings of the early christian groups that is why our scholars occasionally point to these early writings as substantiation for lds doctrine on temples but these sources are not the basis for our doctrine by any means the final source for any knowledge we have of what was practiced in the temple anciently is modern revelation and that i believe is the only reliable source available for that information now dr white claims that quote jesus christ fulfilled the law as well as the function of the temple unquote does the bible hold this claim well we we know that christ fulfilled the law but there is no passage in the bible that specifically says the temple functions were fulfilled there is scripture that tell us that the law of moses was fulfilled but the law of moses was separate from the temple paul in fact listed it separately when he defended himself in acts 25 8 he's saying quote neither against the law of the jews neither against the temple nor yet against caesar have i offended anything at all unquote the law of moses was also separate from sacrifice jacob offered sacrifice in genesis 31 54 long before the law of moses was instituted and before moses was given the law he asked pharaoh to allow the hebrews to go out five days or let's see it was like three days yeah into the desert to offer sacrifice to their god that's in exodus 5. also we note that the sacrifices offered in the temple of solomon were to be quote an ordinance for forever to israel unquote ii chronicles 2 4. is there any other way we can tell whether or not the functions of the temple were fulfilled i suggest there is we can look at the practice of early christians after christ's resurrection what do we learn from the from looking at that well after the sacrifice of christ on the cross which fulfilled the law of moses the apostles including paul attended the temple regularly acts 2 46 says they were continuing daily with one accord in the temple unquote the jews caught paul there in acts 26 21 thus the bible verifies that the apostles and early christians were in the temple regularly what does this tell us well it doesn't give us many details but it tells us this one thing for certain and that is the temples are definitely consistent with new christian new testament christianity thank you we'll now have opening statements from dr white well good evening it's good to be with you again this evening i'm glad all of you found your way through the university parking lots and various sundry other things to the location here a very important topic this evening especially here in the location where we find ourselves obviously there would be places around the united states and indeed outside of utah there would be a lot of times when i think a lot of christians would have questions concerning just how a valid this particular discussion really is but we are talking about something that if you are lds you fully understand is central to the teachings of your faith and it is one of the major differences that exists between the lds faith and historic christian phase such as my own that believes that the church is what is commanded of us in the new testament the sense of what the only thing that we build christ builds his church we the people of god are the temple of god and all the things that were associated with the old testament temple that temple there in jerusalem or before that fixed structure was built the tabernacle that god gave the exact means of building the exact way it was to be laid out in scripture for a purpose as we will see we believe that the function of that tabernacle in that temple was to point to jesus christ was to point to his sacrificial death was to demonstrate through the offerings that were made year by year the writer to the hebrews tells us that these things were pointing forward to a much greater fulfillment in the person of jesus christ and that since he has come and since he has offered that one sacrifice and since he is the only holder of the melchizedek priesthood according to the book of hebrews therefore the concept of christians building structures calling them temples and engaging in religious activity within them is contradictory to a the teaching concerning the tabernacle or temple in the old testament and then in the new testament the fulfillment of those things in the person of jesus christ and the teaching concerning the nature of the law the nature of sacrifices and the nature of the singular sacrifice of jesus christ found particularly this evening in the book of hebrews now just a few things just to make sure that we're all on the same page because there have been a lot of scripture references already cited and they're cited so quickly that most of time especially in a context like this especially if you're sitting in some of those rows where there's not much light even if you wanted to try to look up the references you would have difficulty in so doing but let's try to refocus our attention what i have said in the past and some have for some odd reason focused upon the word allowed in context it obviously meant that god only commanded the building uh of first the tabernacle the tabernacle was portable there was only one tabernacle god did not say build as many tabernacles as you can god did not say build multiple tabernacles and place them all over israel so people have ease of access there was one tabernacle and that one tabernacle housed that special ark of the covenant and it was that one tabernacle that people were to go on the day of atonement on the day of covering yom kippur the day of covering kaffar to cover over when the sacrifice would be made and the blood would be sprinkled upon the altar now the functions of that particular tabernacle in regards to those offerings was transferred to the singular temple in jerusalem when solomon built that and so the people of god were to gather to one place in fact it's fascinating the men were to come together they were to come to that place of offering as the people of god and this was such a universal command to go to one place not to many places but to one place that god in his word even promises that when the men leave and think about those israelites who are living on the border lands and right across a boundary or a river would be their enemies those who hate them they see the men leaving at the same time each year what is to keep them from coming across and and carrying away the women and their goods god even promises to take away the desire from the heart of their enemies to take their lands when they would be faithful to go to that one place of worship now were there not other places of worship there certainly were and they were idolatrous the bible is filled with references to the idolatrous worship that took place in many places and almost all of these places were modeled after the asharim the groves were modeled after the pagan religions that constantly were encroaching upon the people god's prophets were constantly having to talk about the fact that yahweh is the one true god that you cannot bring the worship of yahweh together with the worship of other gods this kind of syncretism this kind of giving in coming to jerusalem to worship yahweh but then going and worshiping the baals and the ashraem and the asteroth and so on so forth this was something that the people in the old testament did all the time and we read the the prophets over and over again calling the people to pure worship and god once in a while grants repentance we see the reformations under hezekiah or josiah and there is a period of time when the ashrams are destroyed and and there is a restoration of true worship but unfortunately most of the time the people are very content to tip their hats toward the true worship of god and then go on with that which fulfills their own desires now what happens then since we're talking about our temple is consistent with new testament christianity the first thing to recognize is well if you as a new testament christian uh do not seek to build a single temple see if the if there is going to be a consistency if there's going to be a demand to say well unless you have a a passage that says stop building a temple singular temple then you're to continue to do that which really wouldn't be relevant to the thesis this evening because as we know mormonism builds many temples but uh if we were to if we were to substantiate the thesis at least someone might say well still you have to explain why the people of god in the old covenant built that one temple and their worship's focus there and in those early days the church in jerusalem as long as that temple existed they still went there they still they used it as a place of proclamation which of course they did isn't it interesting to note however that those christians outside of jerusalem do not make pilgrimages they do not go to the temple to to do things in the sense of they where do they go and evangelize they evangelize in the synagogues in the same place where the jews were why do they go there first why does paul whenever he goes into a city go into the into the synagogue first because there you find the scriptures there you find the people who already possess the word of god you can go the word of god and say look here you have the prophecies of the messiah here you have the pictures of the messiah that's where you start and then in each one of those instances in acts when eventually the jews rebel against that sometimes even driving the apostles out of the city then you have the apostles going to the gentiles at that point in time look at for example acts chapter 13 for a good example of that particular situation but still the question remains well if you're going to say that new testament christians do not build a particular structure upon what basis do you do so well i think the universal answer to that question throughout the history of the church has been very clearly enunciated in the book of hebrews the book of hebrews presents to us an apologetic it is a book written to those hebrew christians who were under duress they were they recognized what they were facing they would be put out of the synagogue they would be in essence excommunicated from their families they would be considered to be dead and there was this this temptation placed before them this this force placed upon them that said come back to the old ways this jesus the messiah thing it's just not worth what you're giving up think about the family think about all the difficulties you're going to go through come back to the old ways come back to the old ways and so what does the writer to the hebrews do he demonstrates the supremacy and superiority of christ in numerous different ways to the old way he demonstrates that there's in essence nothing to go back to now in that process for example he demonstrates the eternal nature of christ the deity of christ in hebrews chapter one his supremacy over the angels his supremacy over moses and then most interestingly enough for us this evening he begins an extended section where he demonstrates that jesus christ is our one high priest and that he has made one offering and the contrast is drawn between the many offerings which took place in the temple not in multiple temples but in the temple the contrast was drawn between those repeated offerings and the people coming to that one offering especially on yom kippur the day of atonement with the singular sacrifice of jesus christ in the process the author addresses the issue of for example the priesthood and he says that the old priesthood has been done away with the levitical priesthood traced through aaron and aaron only no one who is not of the family of aaron can hold that priesthood remember what happened in numbers when the ground opened up and swallowed cora dathan with byram for daring to claim priesthood authority when they did not have it that particular priesthood is contrasted with christ priesthood and in fact in hebrews chapter 7 verse 12 we're told where there is a change of law there's a change of priesthood the two are connected together and in point of fact that priesthood which offered the sacrifices which had charge over the temple precincts was done away with its purpose is fulfilled why because a greater priesthood he is called the mediator of a better covenant with better sacrifices better promises a better hope each of these placed in contrast with the old covenant and that old covenant and its old priesthood was part and parcel of the old temple and the worship that took place within it and so you will notice that while we have the one incident of paul and a nazarite vow we do not have sin offerings any longer by anyone even those in jerusalem and never do you find new testament or in the history of the early church those christians going out and building buildings and offering sacrifices within those particular structures and so we have the contrast that is presented to us by the writer of the hebrews where he says all of these things the priesthood or that and their offerings the sacrifices the things that took place were pointing forward in fact remember in hebrews you have the discussion well you have all of the the furniture and the way that was arranged in the holy place and it specifically asserted all of this god gave us the exact way it was supposed to be built for what reason for what reason so that it might represent its fulfillment in jesus christ and so then the writer says so you see what's going on here is even though the the high priests who were not able to continue their work because they have death they would die and a new high priest have to come along jesus christ because he does not die is able to save the uttermost those who draw not near unto god by him it talks about him entering into the holy place which the high priest could only do once a year to offer that sacrifice for the people he has entered in and unlike the old high priest who had to just enter in and perform his work and then leave jesus enters in and he stays and the old high priest there was no place to sit there is no place to sit because his work was never completed but jesus as the one high priest the only melchizedek priest because the melchizedek priest has to be able to save the uttermost those who draw nine to god by him hebrews chapter seven he enters into that holy place and what does hebrews chapter 10 tell us by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified and he has sat down in the presence of the father he has sat down he is no longer in a situation where he is he is having to work in the sense that the old priest had to continuously be doing the offering again and again and again the writer of the hebrew says he does not do so he has perfected by one offering for all time those who are sanctified and so you see the reason my friends that new testament christians did not go out and say well we now have uh a new priesthood authority that was not present in the old temple uh and i'm not sure about the discussions of of the rooms and things like that the for example the law was found in josiah's day in one of those rooms and there are places of storage and priesthood uh the priest in the in the priesthood i mean if you ever tried to sacrifice a whole lot of lambs it takes a lot of stuff to do that and there had to be places of storage and things like that i'm not sure if there's anything else being suggested about that but be that as it may it was the ironic priesthood that was in charge of what was going on in jerusalem and we don't find the new testament christians saying well we have a new priesthood so we are going to go and and we're going to come up with a completely new uh way of doing things we have no record given to us though we have clear record in the old testament of exactly how the tabernacle is to be built exactly how it's to be laid out nothing like that new testament we have no references whatsoever to the new testament christians going out and building structures and engaging in any kind of religious activity within these structures that were kept from other people there is no evidence of this whatsoever and the reason we would not see it is because they recognized as the book of hebrews tells us that those old uh particular structures those offerings those priesthood activities pointed to what they now realized and saw was past completed and perfect and in fact may i suggest to you that to go back to priesthoods in the sense of the aaronic priesthood or melchizedek priest or something along those lines to go back to temples to go back to things like that is to take a step away from the finished and perfect work of jesus christ that's why the new testament christians did not do that they saw that there was a temple the new testament speaks about a temple what is it well first you have the heavenly temple that jesus has entered into the tabernacle was just a picture of that but you see what's the earthly temple it is the church we heard much of all the the functions that were to take place in the temple there was teaching there was prayer there was singing where do all those things take place for new testament christians they take place in the body of christ the church which is his temple we are the temple the temple is no longer made of stones it is no longer found in one place a new testament christian doesn't go there is the temple over there you see when the people of god gather together there you have the temple there you have the body of christ teaching takes place there does not paul tell timothy he refers him to the theonus of scriptures those god breathed scriptures and he says timothy if you want to know what you as the man of god are to do in the church of god which he calls the pillar and foundation of the truth then timothy you look at those scriptures for your teaching you're exhorting you're rebuking you're training in righteousness all those things are found for you right there in the scriptures timothy and where is all that ministry taking place in a physical building called a temple no it takes place in the church in the gathered body that's where the prayers are that's where the psalms are sung and the hymns are sung and the worship takes place and the teaching takes place is in the body of christ and so when we ask the question obviously when we ask our temples consist of new testament christianity the fact that we are doing this in the context of the university of utah means that we are looking at the paradigm offered by the lds church and we have these structures that exist all over the world now and they are not where the people of god meet regularly from the mormon perspective their award chapel is not a temple in that way and so you have a different structure and there would be no lds temple without the concept of priesthood there would be no lds temple without the concept of the restoration of aaronic and melchizedek priesthood orders i think most people would agree with that particular assertion and so the reason that i rise in the negative this evening then is very simply this that the new testament tells us that the priesthood functions of the old covenant have passed away jesus christ is our only high priest jesus christ alone holds the melchizedek priesthood the only terminology used of priests outside of that which is in reference to jesus christ is the general priesthood of all believers male and female young and old in fulfilling the promises of the old testament regarding god's restoration of his people those things are fulfilled in the church and so to go back to the old way is to not only believe that new testament documents are not sufficient to give us direction as to how we are to worship god today but also to go against the teaching of the new testament documents concerning the priesthood of christ the singular offering of the sacrifice of christ the fulfillment of the priesthood orders and the temple worship that is seen in christ and the teaching that the only temple for new testament christians is the body of christ the church of jesus christ which by the way the apostle paul tells us in ephesians chapter 3 would exist throughout all ages not just in some ages but that god indeed would protect his people which we believe that he did and hence the differences between us this evening i hope that we will look to god's holy word for our answers this evening thank you very much we'll now have 10 minutes of rebuttal from dr hopkins dr white suggests that we take a look at the scriptures for this and i think he's wise to say so so let's do that um hebrews 9 verses 1 through 8 gives us some insight uh into the temple and specifically the the the transition that was occasioned by the rending of the veil in two uh that that event occurred in matthew 27 51 mark 15 38 and josephus and the talmud also record this event associated with the earthquake um anyway let's take a look at those verses of hebrews 9 1-8 it says then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary for there was a tabernacle made the first wherein was the the candlestick and the table and the showbread which is called the sanctuary now this was the first part of the temple the first portion of the temple or room in the temple and it's on the lower floor and after the second veil it goes on to say the tabernacle which is called the holiest of all that was the second excuse me the second room in the temple separated from the sanctuary by the veil which was the veil that was ran into and it goes on to say that this the holiest of all the holy of holies had the golden sensor and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold wherein was the gold pot that had manna and aaron's rod that budded and the tables of the covenant and over it the cherubims of glory showing them shadowing the mercy seat of which we cannot now speak particularly now when these things were thus ordained the priests went always into the first tabernacle accomplishing the service of god but into the second went the high priest alone once every year not without blood which he offered for himself and for the heirs of the people the holy ghost this signifying this is the interesting part in this that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest while as the first tabernacle was yet standing the law of moses set forth the first covenant with israel christ as dr white has said brought a new covenant a better covenant hebrews 8 6 as hebrews 8 explains the new covenant allows us to be closer to god because christ's sacrifice allows our sins to be washed away in the holy of holies was the ark of the covenant and the mercy seat of which they could not speak however we can learn something about the mercy seat from exodus 25 22. that verse says quote and there i will meet with thee and i will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony unquote now this was therefore was the seed on which god spoke from which he on which he sat from which he spoke to to moses and it represented the presence of god in the temple only the high priest was allowed to enter this portion i.e he was the only one who was allowed to enter the holiest the presence of god and the rest of for the rest of the people the way was as the scripture said not yet made manifest now hebrews 9 9 and 10 go on to save the temple the first tabernacle was a figure of the time then present in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect as pertaining to conscience which stood only in meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation this passage confirms that there were other things done in the temple besides sacrifices of meats and drinks these included the offering of gifts diverse washings carnal ordinances but hebrews 9 goes on then to address the time of reformation this is important timing it explains that the the passage in hebrews explains that the symbolism explains the symbolism of the sacrifice under the law of moses just as dr white explained it was to point people towards the sacrifice of christ and it explains that um it points out that there must have been a change or reformation of the law and of the sacrifices required unto the law now you can read this change it was prophesied by prophets of the old testament as quoted in hebrews chapter 9 but there are other additional passages for example isaiah 1 11 says quote to what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me saith the lord i am full of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts and i delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lambs or of he goats this is interesting for him to say back in the old testament and it pointed to a change that would occur because he was not satisfied with the situation and that was not what it was about what did god want well psalms 51 17 answered that question and explains that quote the sacrifices of god are a broken spirit a broken spirit and a contrite heart oh god thou wilt not despise this is also explained in psalms 34 18. now the message of hebrews 9 goes on through chapter 10 in to verses of 16 through 18 which quoting isaiah and they point to the conclusion of this passage and let me read this to you because it's important this is the covenant that i will make with them after those days that is af at the time of this prophesied change of reference time of reformation i will put my heart laws into their hearts and in their minds will i write them and their sins and iniquities will i remember no more now where remission of these is there is no more offering for sin this passage indicates that there was to be no more offering for sin by christians through blood sacrifice under the law of moses after the time of reformation which was signaled by the death of christ his resurrection and his sacrifice for our sins and it was heralded by the time the rending of the the veil in two um but did this mean that the temple ordinances were done away with not according to the next four verses in chapter nine these in chapter 10 verses 19-22 they say having therefore brethren boldness which the word translated boldness really means like license or authority to enter into the holiest by the blood of jesus by a new and living way which he hath consecrated to us through the veil that is to say is flesh and having an high priest over the house of god let us draw near with a full heart with a true heart in full assurance of faith having our hearts sprinkled with an evil conscience from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water thus we see that christ's sacrifice was intended to present provide a new and living way for all to enter god's presence this holiest of holies and through the veil through his flesh and the rending of the veil which is the was like the reigning of his flesh established a new covenant through the blood of christ whereby all could enter the place in the temple that was associated with the presence of god providing they first had their hearts sprinkled with an from an evil conscience and their bodies washed with pure water this does not suggest the elimination of temple ordinances not by any means in fact quite the opposite it indicates that there was a change in the ordinances a very important change that is specifically what hebrews is about but specifically for christians it eliminated the blood sacrifice because that was the fulfillment of it but after the temple was written between after um the savior made his sacrifice for sins the early christians and the apostles attended the temple regularly they attended the temple until it was destroyed they were given no further revelations of any sort after the book of john was written possibly some look at the the um uh the shepherd of hermes as a revelation um but the official doctor of the church by the end of the second century was no more revelations from god so how could they ever have discovered what to do they didn't listen they didn't hear any commandments to build a temple of course they didn't build any temples after that but when they had the temple and when they had the apostles to lead them they went to the temple regularly there was a reason for that um and it isn't true what um dr white said that the people from outside of jerusalem the christians from outside of jerusalem didn't come to jerusalem to attend the temple paul specifically was asked to come back and to attend the temple and he did that showing that he he reverenced the temple of god now on the subject of christ being the only holder of the melchizedek priesthood i would like to suggest that the scriptures do reveal one other holder melchizedek let me explain the melchizedek priesthood to you and the position of christ with respect to that priesthood is very clear the priesthood is agency christ is the only principle but he has many agents melchizedek was one of them the priesthood is named after melchizedek if there is no priesthood then there's a lot of things to explain in the scriptures uh acts verses of acts chapter 8 verses 5 through 20 being the biggest one um the melchizedek priesthood is the agency of christ christ holds the preeminent position there of course as the book of hebrews explains but he holds it as the principle whose agency it is i'm not sure how much more time i have on this book jason but um i think very much that that at least explains the rebuttal to these things that we have thank you very much we'll now have a 10 minute rebuttal from dr white hopefully you still have your scriptures open to that passage in hebrews chapter 10 i would like to again focus our attention there it is very important i i recognize in academic debate you you have cross-examination immediately after the opening statements try to clarify things and that would be useful here because i'm not 100 certain of exactly what the position was it was just enunciated but i have to do my best with the format that we have um jeremiah chapter 31 verses 31-34 contains the prophecy that was read a portion of which appears in hebrews chapter 10 verses 16 through 17. you can see the fuller rendition of it found in hebrews chapter 8 verses 8 through 12 directly from jeremiah chapter 31 regarding what god is going to do in that day when he establishes this new covenant with his people and immediately after saying that christ's one offering perfects sanctifies it is one offering over against the many offerings the repeated offerings of the old covenant were a reminder of sin we do not have repeated offerings we have only one offering that has brought perfection not merely a possibility of salvation but has truly brought salvation then in beginning of verse 19 and and i'm not completely certain and i'm sure that's during the cross-examination we'll be able to clarify this since therefore brethren we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of jesus by a new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil that is his flesh and since we have a great high priest over the house of god notice it's a great high priest not many let us draw near with a seer heart in full assurance of faith having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water now the way i understood what was being said was that this somehow has something to do with the continuation of christian participation temple ordinances in jerusalem believe me the jews did not take kindly to christians seeking to participate in temple worship look what happened to paul when he was simply paying a vow let alone anything else please notice these these washings had to do with priesthood these were the the ordinations of the aaronic priests that are being referred to here and obviously paul wouldn't be involved in something like that what is going on here this isn't written to people who are only in jerusalem this entering in is in the worship of the church this everything that's being discussed here the veil is the body of christ we're not talking about the veil in jerusalem was done away with it was torn from the top to the bottom as only god could do then man comes back in and tries to patch it back up from the bottom the top as man is want to do we have a great high priest over the house of god the house of god here my friends is no longer the temple in jerusalem the gathered people of god are now the house of god they are the temple not that building in jerusalem any longer and someone says let us draw a nearest and sincere heart in full assurance of faith he's not saying let us go to the temple in jerusalem it was just said that i was in error and i said people didn't make like pilgrimages and things like that back to jerusalem what paul certainly did paul was bringing the offering that he had gathered from all the christian churches in asia minor for the suffering saints in jerusalem those suffering saints weren't getting on those saints in in asia minor weren't getting on boats and going to jerusalem so they might somehow uh engage in temple ordinances or the like it doesn't seem to make any sense to me i also don't understand what is being asserted because is it am i to understand that what is being asserted is that the christians were engaging in some kind of of activity parallel to what mormons do in temples today in the temple in jerusalem i mean they had the melchizedek priesthood even according to mormonism at this particular point in time and so as long as there are valid melchizedek priesthood holders in the mormon paradigm are you not to build temples so as to do these things but they didn't do so and they certainly by gathering the porticos of the temple and teaching about jesus until they're driven out we're not in so doing engaging in some kind of of temple ritual it was the place where they gathered and preached to the people about who jesus christ was this same type of thing does not happen elsewhere you do not see as the apostles go out they're giving instructions to the churches we see a lot about the instructions they give we have entire books of the bible the pastoral epistles first second timothy titus as to what the elders of the church are to do in the organization of the church and its worship and there is not a word in this divine revelation concerning the concepts of aaronic and melchizedek priesthoods and temple ordinances or anything else it's simply not there and there is no order given to them to build certain kinds of buildings in a certain form so as to in essence make it possible to receive exaltation as god's for we know that outside of those ordinances in mormonism there is no exaltation to godhood and so is this what is being said here in hebrews chapter 10 most certainly not these are words that to every believer every believer is called to draw near where does that terminology sound familiar turn back with me to hebrews chapter 7 you'll see what it means to draw near it doesn't mean to go to the temple in jerusalem hebrews chapter 7 says in beginning verse 23 and the former priests on the one hand existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing that's the old priesthood the priesthood has passed away has lots and lots and lots of priests but he contrasts with the singular he that's jesus on the other hand because he abides forever he is resurrected he shall not die he holds his priesthood permanently operabaton a term that that means there is no ending to his holding of this priest authority there is no passing it on he does not have to give it to someone else he holds it permanently hence also because of this indestructible life and the fact that he is not prevented by death like the old high priest were hence also verse 25 he is able to save forever or to the uttermost completely who those who draw near to god through him sense why he always lives to make intercession for them here is the christian's high priest and he has entered into the holy place we're told in hebrews chapter 9 having obtained eternal redemption and that's why we do not re-picture what he did that's why we do not need to have a temple which was the function of the temple in the old testament to re-picture what he has done because we as the people of god the temple of god the body of christ know what he has accomplished in our behalf now if the argument this evening is well look there were temples and that's the basis for us today i would say that that argument fails simply due to the fact that the form of the temple the function of the temple and the worship of the temple in the old covenant is so radically different than what is found in the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints today that there is no meaningful parallel to be drawn and if it is attempted to be drawn the priesthood issue and the fulfillment issue destroys the parallel but i think we've actually heard the true argument already because has it not been said that really fundamentally the final authority for the building of temples the final authority for lds temples is modern day revelation that is the foundation that is the the perspective it is we believe these things because we believe in the prophethood of joseph smith the continuing line of prophets the existence of apostles etc etc that is really the foundational issue but the problem is the thesis for our debate this evening is is it consistent with new testament christianity and that would mean in essence that the new testament itself has to be precluded from the examination to come up with the thesis and the thesis contains the phrase new testament how do we know what is new testament well we know what is new testament by what the new testament itself teaches now i can i can almost hear the the argumentation well but you see the new testament says that the church is supposed to have this form and we could debate the issue of the form of the church it's clearly laid out for us in the new testament things like that i'm well aware of where all the various sundry rabbit trails might lead but in regards to the thesis statement and uh in a trial court as as i'm sure would be admitted you have to try to stick to the subject most judges want you to get back to that particular point be after you've chased a few rabbits the fundamental issue this evening is what does new testament christianity have to do with temples and i suggest to you that if we allow the new testament to speak if we allow the new testament to define the issue for us that the answer has been clearly given and that in fact in the admission that we need something beyond the new testament to substantiate the lds perspective we have in that statement a recognition that new testament christianity as it's found in the new testament is not consistent with the building of lds temples thank you very much we're going to take a five-minute break for the restrooms and for uh if you want water fountains i believe there's some out there uh since you faster to the end when we can applaud both men it is our very serious business that we are discussing here this evening we have been described in some circles with these debates as being anti-mormon and hate mongers and a number of other things all by people who have not attended the people who have attended from both sides have been very complementary if you believe that this has been anything other than fair and an attempt to show respect i ask that you please point that out to me so that i can deal with the issue because that is our aim but please refrain from showing support until the end when we can show it to both because it's very easy for people to be offended on each side and that's not what we're intending to do with these as i said we will have a debate tomorrow evening dr white will be debating pastor d bradshaw on the subject of gay marriage we invite you to join us for that if you have questions about our church there are brochures up front there are also three by five cards on which you can submit questions we're now going to move to cross-examination we're going to begin with 15 minutes of questions from dr hopkins to dr white all right there are a couple of questions about the temple that i'd like to ask but first i'd like to clarify this issue of the priesthood of all believers that was mentioned by dr white first question is if the priesthood was fulfilled as you've said and finished and completed no longer in existence what priesthood if any was left to be a priesthood of all believers yeah well the reference that's here wow the uh didn't think it would work quite that well the reference that you're uh that you're referring to is of course peter's uh description of all christians uh and uh that is a fulfillment of the old testament uh this is specifically first peter chapter two uh beginning at verse seven this pressure precious value then is for you who believe but for those who disbelieve and it says the stone of stumbling rock offense if they stone because they are disbelieving to the word into this doom they are also appointed but you are a and then you have uh the citation in verse 9 from deuteronomy chapter 10 uh you are a chosen race a royal priest a holy nation of people for god's own possessions you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light there is the the fundamental role of the priesthood of every believer and that is you have here the proclamation verse again verse 9 uh that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness in his marvelous light the same thing is found in the book of hebrews which after belaboring the point of the fulfillment of the priesthood then talks about us who offer sacrifice of praise paul uses in romans 12 the offering and sacrifice of our bodies in service it is a spiritual fulfillment in us of what was a outward and limited to only a specific family and group of people priesthood in the old covenant there is no as you we both i think would agree uh sacrificial element whatsoever uh in that general priesthood that is found amongst all believers especially when it's male and female believers um now you mentioned of a language in the book of hebrews that says something about the fulfilling of the priesthood where is that i read only a change in the priesthood not an elimination of the priesthood in hebrews well as i mentioned in my in my opening statement i not only see the reference to that i assume you're referring to hebrews chapter 7 verse 12 uh for when the priesthood is changed and necessity takes place on the change of law also but i'm arguing that the entirety of chapters 5 through 10 and specifically the fulfillment in it of the priesthood offerings that are seen in jesus christ and this is i mean chapter 8 talks about it in regards to verse six chapter nine um when christ appears high priest good things come he enters the greater more perfect tabernacle not made with hands uh verse nine of chapter nine this is a symbol for the time we even went through that particular section of the holy spirit is signifying this these are my argument has been that all of these types and shadows which in the old covenant were intimately directly and in fact i would argue could not be separated from temple worship are what are fulfilled in jesus christ and so that's what i mean i do not i can't think of a single thing uh that is specifically the priesthood's responsibility in the temple that is not fulfilled in christ and fulfilled in his church how would we know we know so little about the temple specific ordinances but i thought you did a great job actually i mean you you mentioned a number of of functions that i that i thought was very insightful uh you you talked about um preaching uh making instruction teaching making uh prayer the singing the worship um i think those things are exactly what we see in the new testament church being fulfilled and that's why it's the body of christ called the temple of the temple of the lord well you know that's a another is well let me first try and get this clear because i'm not clear at all either there is a priesthood or there isn't a priesthood i would assume and you are you saying that the priesthood of believers is a priesthood or it's not a priesthood it is the fulfillment of deuteronomy chapter 10 in the people of god according to first peter chapter two uh verse nine uh where it's i'm sorry yeah verse nine uh this is a fulfillment now this these words were initially said about israel a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for god's own possession these are all now fulfilled you read from jeremiah 31 as well in hebrews chapter 10 these are now fulfilled in the people of god it is a priesthood that does not involve succession it is a priesthood in that these the people of god are the ones who mediate the knowledge of who god is in fact remember hebrews chapter 8 when it quotes from jeremiah says they shall not each one teach his brother saying know the lord for what for they shall all know me from the least so we we that's not now though that's in the that's in the uh millennial time in the new jerusalem right uh no i would not believe that to be the case at all because let me get the let me clarify the point better than that i have then was this priesthood of believers organized in any way so that offices and things like that yeah no no there wasn't so the priesthood all right let me let me get this straight you remember simon in acts chapter 8 he believed and was baptized did he get the priesthood then of all believers well of course simon was uh was is described for us in the book of acts as a hypocrite well uh fine so not it says he believed it doesn't say it was a hypocrite about believing it says he believed and was baptized obviously i believe that there is false faith and there is true faith and he is identified as one and having a false faith so uh no you don't think he got the priesthood of all believers oh well when you say get the priesthood of all believers that's that's terminology it's not used in the new testament it's not the idea of course it's something it is that the people of god fulfill something there's was he if if you ask me was he a part of the people of god no he was not well how do you explain the clear ecclesiastical differences in offices that are given in the old testament and you know the bishops and deacons and all of these officers of the priesthood were those something other than the priesthood of all believers they're not described as offices of a priesthood anywhere in the new testament they are the officers of the church there are two offices and only two offices there is the elder and there is the deacon the elder is a bishop the elder is the overseer those terms are used by paul in the pastoral epistles in an interchangeable fashion and they're the ones who are called to teach and preach the word of god the diaconates are those who care for the widows and the orphans and the matters of the church distribution of food things like that those are the only two offices in the new testament and they are never associated with the word priesthood to my knowledge anywhere in the new testament well philip goes down to samaria in act in acts chapter 8 and he preaches the people they believe and he baptizes them now in verse 14 it says now when the apostles which were jerusalem heard that samaria had received the word of god they send unto them peter and john who when they were come down prayed for them that they might receive the holy ghost for as yet he had not fallen upon any of them only they were baptized in the name of the lord jesus then laid they the hands on them and they received the holy ghost now why wasn't philip able to do that if he had the same office as the apostles i never said he had the same office the apostles a apostleship is a is a specific kind of office that according to new testament is limited to those who were eyewitnesses the resurrection of jesus christ secondly this is a unique situation that goes against all of the other situations and there's a reason for that here we see the gospel going outside the realm of judaism to the gentiles and instead of having a distribution of a gentile christian church and a jewish christian church you have the apostles themselves coming down and by their involvement in the gospel coming to these samaritans which the jews would consider to be non-jews as we know they were a a mixture of the two but they're considered non-jews by the apostles being involved in this one situation you have the holding together we are one church we don't have the jewish christian church over here we don't have the gentile christian church over here very same concern paul has in galatians chapter 2 when it looked like that that type of situation nowhere else does that same type of situation take place it is it is unique in its context in the early church and the uniqueness of the context is the gospel first going into a non-jewish context and the need for the unity of the church well the point that's not the point the passage makes the point makes that of the passage is that the priesthood that they had the authority to lay on hands to receive the gift of the holy ghost was the gift of god where is it i'm sorry where does the term priesthood appear there i didn't i didn't see it excuse me you said the priesthood that they had i i don't see anything but where's the words turned preaching that's an office of the priesthood where does you're using terminology i don't see i've never i've never seen the phrase apostles are an office of priesthood in the new testament of you is that the point no that isn't the point the point is that their authority their ability to lay on hands and give the received give the holy ghost is a gift from the lord simon wanted that gift so that he could lay hands on people and they'd receive the holy ghost he was not allowed to have that because he wanted to pay money for it as you said he was a hypocrite but they but he did believe and was baptized i mean he misunderstood some things clearly some seriously misunderstood some things and the point here is that this is the gift of god the ability to give this holy ghost now you're saying that this the apostles were the only ones who had this ability and therefore after they died nobody could receive the gift of the holy ghost no what i'm saying is the apostles existed only at one point in the church the the bible says that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets you don't keep laying a foundation over and over again you lay a foundation once and that this is a unique situation where because the gospel is going off into non-jewish lands the apostles come down they lay their hands which is an external situation something it's seen they are associating with non-jews and the result of the coming of the holy spirit demonstrates this is one gospel one people of god there is not going to be anything else there's nothing in here when you ask me about priesthood authorities i don't see the word priesthood anywhere in in acts chapter 8. you mentioned ephesians um yes i did with regard to the apostles being the the foundation of the church and then it says other offices mentions other offices that are built on the foundation the apostles this is a description of the church and what you're telling me now is that we can take the foundation away from the church and it will still remain because this is a foundation of old apostles that there were only a certain number of them it is the same true of the other officers there was only a certain number only the people that were bishops at the time of the early church then were the only bishops that we were ever going to have no actually you're conflating a couple of different passages there from ephesians because it the question assumed that these you said something about offices being built upon this foundation that's not what it says it says having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets christ jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole building being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the lord in whom you are also being built together into a dwelling of god in the spirit which is very relevant to our debate this evening because here the church is the temple but it seems that your question is is conflating that with the offices that are mentioned in chapter four and i'm not sure exactly how i'm supposed to conflate the two together because this passage doesn't say anything about offices uh in regards to the foundation and if what you're asking me is well if the apostles are left then do all these other offices leave no because the apostles have left us their testimony in holy scripture in the same way the lord jesus has preserved that word for us which is why paul says to timothy timothy look to that scripture as your foundation as the man of god i've still got two minutes here [Laughter] all right um of course we all believe that that uh we that let me since we just have this i'm gonna have to get this other one question now you've said that um that the temple was only a place for convocation and yet we clearly have a major discrepancy from that in the scriptures namely the nazarite vows that paul took where if i said the temple was only a place of convocation i said it's primary in your earlier things no i said the primary christian the temple christians oh oh okay after the fulfilling of you know after christ's sacrifice and i mentioned paul's nazarite vow i know you mentioned it but you didn't explain how do you explain that i mean clearly he's there doing a nazarite vow in the temple um is there something terribly wrong with paul is that what you're saying no paul was a jewish christian and as such paul exercised his liberty amongst other jews his purposes for doing so he are not stated in scripture but he had the liberty to do so but it was not it did not involve first of all sacrifice for sin because that would put it directly in contrast to what he himself taught and secondly i would seem to me that if paul was a priesthood holder in your context he would have sought the temple that he himself would have been commanded to be built and to exercise his alleged melchizedek priesthood authority within the context that mormons do today i don't see any evidence that he did that as a jewish christian with that as his culture and his background that's what he did it i don't see any other other explanation for it than that well our time is up my time is up but thank you we'll now have 15 questions 15 minutes of questions it's been a long day we'll have 15 minutes of cross-examination by dr white thank you um would you uh and and this is i guess where i can finally clarify when when you directed our attention uh to hebrews chapter 10 verses 19 and following and seemingly attached this to the apostles attending excuse me the temple are you suggesting as as i responded to it that this passage has to do with with engaging in temple ordinances in jerusalem i think it speaks for itself quite well it says having therefore brethren boldness or authority to enter into the holiest now they didn't have that before they had that authority to enter to the holiest through christ so are you saying first of all that the word confidence can be translated as authority yeah license or authority license or authority and so it is your uh assertion that the the apostles were entering into the holy place in jerusalem into the holy of holies oh well we have noah we have no we have no information on that we have this indication and as you know as you well know i my position is that we do not know the details of what was done in the temple outside of uh the sacrifices at all and yet it's clear that there was a lot being done okay so don't you think that the the the jewish folks who were in charge of the temple who found finding paul in the outer courts of the temple had him dragged away and almost killed don't you think they would have had a real problem with entering into the holy place of course so all right well it says to enter the holy place by the blood of jesus if we're going to literally take this as the holy place then does that mean that they also had the blood of jesus or that they had his flesh with a veil or or the i just don't understand when you say it speaks for itself it does seem to speak for itself but it's speaking of a spiritual fulfillment not a physical fulfillment villain isn't it but this no you can terminate it or you can term it as a spiritual fulfillment and we have no way to tell really i mean whether or not anything like this was was changed um physically at that but but i would point out that a lot happened in the temple with the christians there with the apostles before the uh chief priests and those who were over the temple uh did anything with respect to stopping them okay uh let me ask you uh if and they weren't very successful at stopping them i mean it was clear but i mean an angel comes and lets them out of prison and they're right back there the next day preaching in the temple i mean they didn't have much control over what over to they didn't have much ability to keep them from doing this do you see anything in anywhere in the new testament where christians are seen to be within the actual inner courts of the temple which would include uh the holy place the place of the sacrifice altar and then the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant was kept are you just simply saying we don't see it or can you point us to any place that would indicate them uh there's no place i know of that says they went into the holy of holies i think that's clear there are no places that say very much about what was done at all we do know that paul fulfilled an azerite vow apparently nazarite vows were not fulfilled okay um in regards to the the priesthood of melchizedek is it not true that from the lds perspective you must have priesthood authority for a temple to properly exist of course okay um and once the melchizedek priesthood is established is it not the responsibility of the melchizedek priesthood holders to build a temple even at the cost of their life as you see in early lds uh history no no no uh when when must the temple be built when the lord commands it okay and are you saying that the lord did or did not command the apostles to build temples i find nothing in the new testament that says they were commanded to build temples i do not believe they were commanded to build temples could you speculate on why uh given the uh well you would believe that they held the melchizedek priesthood they did hold the melchizedek priesthood up into a point okay but and in the passages that we've been reading let me explain to you what happened i mean maybe you don't understand just how thorough the romans were in doing everything they could to wipe out christianity oh i believe me i don't know well that's something no no no no let me explain because because i'm answering your question with respect to this by after the roman persecutions that in well that ended for a short while with trajan's uh persecution by 115 a.d there were only two men in the world left who had ever even spoken to an apostle polycarp and um the bishop of the bishop of smyrna and ignatius died in 108 but no ignatius ignatius learned from polycarp he that was his big claim to fame he was uh like in primary with polycarp okay but the question i have is not uh later on in the book of acts the lord knew that that was going to be the case what's the point of of how could you command them to build a temple when there's not going to be anybody left around to run it or who knows anything about it okay so the answer to your speculation as to why god did not command the building of temples of the apostles is that he knew that the romans were going to savagely persecute them until 313 and therefore there's no reason to build temples he knew there was going to be an apostasy that was clear he stated as much where did where did uh where did god state that there would what kind of apostasy complete apostasy no no there was never there were numerous apostasies in from the truth uh during the time of the old testament we know it wasn't complete in the sense that there was no church left there was still the jewish religion and the there was traditions and people still did things they just did a lot of things wrong and sometimes they got so badly out of focus that they had to reread the scriptures and start all over again as you know and i mean uh hezekiah and josiah they had terrible problems trying to restore these things and then there was a lot had to be done when they came back from babylon to restore the truth well that restoration the church of that that's what happened it was an apostasy in large measure and certainly they lost the melchizedek priesthood that was real okay so you say that the lord knew that there was going to be an apostasy regarding a priesthood can you point me to a passage that that connects apostasy and priesthood in new testament well you know i didn't come to here i didn't the subject this is off the subject i didn't prepare for that but i certainly can give you plenty of scriptures on the apostasy yes i don't mean to take it off a topic however i i thought that we had pretty well established that the you had said revelation from god's the final authority for your view of the temple that the temple and the priesthood are intimately connected and so i i'm just trying to find since the thesis of the debate is in regards to the new testament every element that i possibly can to understand how you can affirm the thesis and you just said that the lord knew that there would be an apostasy and therefore he didn't command the building of temples um right and uh in in light of this assertion that the lord knew there be an apostasy could you explain for example why the apostle paul said in ephesians 3 21 to him be the glory in the church in christ jesus to all generations forever and ever amen why would why would paul say this if there were going to be all sorts of generations in fact generations right around the corner that would not possess the church of jesus christ amongst them in the year 2000 we saw country after country that is a non-christian country i mean singapore essentially acknowledged that christ was the king of the world because they recognized and acknowledged that that was the year 2000 years after the birth of christ and you do not recognize i mean dating is done from the birth of the king it always has been but you cannot possibly think that these people although they acknowledged in a way they didn't realize that christ was the king and fulfilled this very um scripture that you've mentioned to me that they really are have any understanding of christ or have a correct knowledge of him there was an apostle you can have an apostasy and yet still people looked to christ and understood a great deal about christ understood but the true church didn't exist pardon but the true church did not exist the melchizedek priesthood had been taken that's clear but did the true church exist can the true church exist without the melchizedek priesthood it did prior to christ coming of course from moses to john the baptist it survived as the aaronic priesthood they didn't have the aaronic priesthood either although unfortunately can there be a true church without priesthood authority according to mormon teaching well i hate to use the term true church okay we do not lump other churches who do not have the priesthood authority into necessarily false or anti-christian churches or non-christian churches at all in fact i personally believe that when the scriptures the in the book of mormon draw the line between the those churches that are of god and those churches that are of the devil that that christian churches certainly like this one that's holding this are in amongst the churches of god mentioned there so when you say what is there a true church uh without the the priesthood in the sense of having everything that the lord would like us to have including priesthood authority no but that doesn't mean there isn't truth that doesn't mean that you can't say that this is a church that's teaching truth or that's a true church in a sense that it is a church of god going back to uh what you had said concerning uh the temple itself in jerusalem you mentioned these other rooms were was there in those comments a suggestion that there was anything going on in these rooms that would be parallel to uh modern latter-day revelation and uh endowment ceremonies and things like that most definitely so that was your suggestion yeah there was no melchizedek priesthood that would be over these things no there was no melchizedek priesthood over the over the temple ordinances from the time of moses to the time of john the baptist so why would they build rooms in which they couldn't do anything no no no they were doing things it was just different it's not the same i said it's like it's not exactly the same it's not going to be the same ordinances precisely so the aaronic priesthood had some sort of uh you're suggesting it had some sort of they certainly had washings could that not have been the washings involved with the ordination of aaronic priests yes but there are as i pointed out there are indications that it was broader than that what are those indications well i indicated that in my opening remarks for example in psalms what is it 26 6 it says i wash my hands innocently before i surround the altar of god now surrounding the altar of god there are there are there's mention in psalms 24 for example if it's now unfortunately i haven't come prepared with the translation correct correctly but there is a arguments about translation of that and there is a portion of psalm 24 which refers to a prayer circle and um these are things that latter-day saints recognize we say that looks familiar that sounds familiar and we don't know because it doesn't say anywhere in the script bible what all this was part of but it appears that there was some things going on that were similar to what goes on in latter-day temples today in fact the the very fact that christian groups such as the gnostics had some rudimentary knowledge that they got from somewhere that looks when you look at it it's very similar in many ways to what is done in latter day temples the fact that masons have passed down things that you know little bits and pieces look like things that might have been that are similar suggests very strongly that there was more going on in the temples than appears in the bible is it possible that the similarities in gnosticism and in modern day masonry are much more closely connected to the standard religions of man that has these kinds of rituals in centralized religious places under the control of a hierarchy rather than having any origination from the apostles the lord jesus christ you would you you know that there's not enough known for you to answer that question from scripture so i'm just going to say you cannot tell nor can you tell either way in other words you cannot make that assumption anymore then i can refute that assumption we'll now have five minute closing statements uh beginning with dr hopkins if you have questions please put them in writing i'll be taking them up in just a moment again with dr hopkins and if you can take the lecture we all believe that that we are as first corinthians 6 19 states that our bodies are quote the temples of the holy ghost which is in you it's interesting though that that passage refers to uh the member of the one member of the godhead specifically the holy ghost the spirit which is within us this leaves open very clearly the possibility that god and his son may come to temples in the latter days indeed these very events are prophesied by prophets ezekiel versus chapters 40 through 47 tell of a temple that clearly was not the temple at jerusalem it was to be built in the latter days uh isaiah 2 2 and 3 speaks of a temple to be built in the latter days zechariah 14 16-21 tells of a millennial temple to be built in the latter days at which the jews at least will offer sacrifice again they have not received the fulfillment of christ as yet second thessalonians 2 4 refers to satan in the temple of god declaring himself to be god temples were not done away with we know that because the apostles and the early christians attended them and it's easy to try and say oh no they just were there to teach the people of christ but that does not explain all of the scriptures that we have it does not explain why paul was there for a nazarite vow and nothing associated with teaching the people dr white has said that the temples has asked what does the new testament say on temples it says a mouthful it tells us that the apostles and the early christians were there continually and praying not just preaching but praying in the temple and doing whatever else we don't know because the temple is a sacred and holy place and what goes on there has never been detailed in in public writings um so i i don't see how you can avoid the decision that newt that the temples were consistent with new testament christianity the new testament christians were worshiping there how what could be more consistent thank you very much we'll now have closing statements from dr white first i would like to thank you all for coming out this evening for those of you who have written questions uh very appreciative of your participation in the debate this evening i'd like to thank of course uh jason wallace and mike wyakowski and all those who uh labor so diligently to make these things work and of course mr pierce who's back there in the middle who is going to make it possible for literally thousands of other folks to participate in our debate this evening in the coming months and indeed years thanks to the gift of technology an incredibly wonderful thing and of course sir thank you very much for being here this evening as well i appreciate it i would just like to uh a little bit of housekeeping before i give you the summary statement i would like to challenge the assertion that was made in regards to the greek term parasia in hebrews chapter 10 it does not mean authority it is not a cognate of any term that means authority and i would direct you to any standard lexical sources in regards that particular issue hebrews chapter 10 it has been asserted well you know we're just not really certain but it sounds like it's very plain the apostles were entering into the holy place my friends let me tell you something the jews were given the authority by the romans to use military level force to control the temple precincts they had their own guards they had their own weapons we have found a element of a sign that was posted that in essence said gentiles keep out and i can assure you the temple guards knew exactly who was and who was not in the holy of holies because you could only go in there once a year the apostles were not holding bible studies in the holy of holies in the temple in jerusalem it was not happening and that is a complete misreading of the text the text is very clear this is said to all christians including to us today who can't go to jerusalem and can't go to a temple uh that we enter in to the deepest level of fellowship with god by the blood of jesus christ he bids us to come before the throne of grace because the veil has been rent which was the veil of his body and therefore that priesthood and all those ordinances which stood between us and that direct communion with god have been done away with in the perfect sacrifice of the lord jesus christ we heard it said at one point and i was unable to follow up on it that well what you have in in in hebrews chapter eight in that that perfect new covenant well it hasn't been established yet in reality it says specifically uh in verse six but now of hebrews eight but now he has obtained a more excellent ministry by as much as he is also the media mediator of a better covenant which has been enacted perfect passive complete action the past abiding results the president using a term that refers to legal legislation it has been enacted on better promises you may argue that its fulfillment may yet be future but the enactment of it has already taken place why do i continue to believe at the end of this period of time that the construction of temples is inconsistent with new testament christianity well we just heard say well it has to be consistent because the apostles went to the temple they didn't build it the apostles didn't go back in a.d 71 and say we need to rebuild it they didn't do so the christians didn't do so now we might say well the reason of course is that god knew that there would be great persecution well god's always known his people would be persecuted doesn't god have control over persecution i don't know that that is really a a valid reason why god would not command his people to do what they must do the latter day saints have built temples in the face of tremendous opposition why didn't the apostles was god able to do it now and he couldn't do it then i don't follow that the point is there is no command and it has been admitted there is no command to build temples in the new testament and the reason for that though is not to be seen by looking back anachronistically from our day to the days of the apostles we need to go back then what did the apostles teach concerning the sacrifices of the old covenant in the temple they had been fulfilled in christ those offerings plural fulfilled in one offering singular and the one high priest enters into the holy place and we are not commanded to build buildings today because our high priest is entered into the presence of the father and we are the temple of the lord and dwelt by the holy spirit thank you very much all right we're going to try to squeeze in as many questions as possible i'm going to try to somewhat on the fly pick the best ones or try to conflate some of them because some of them are on the same subject i ask that the speakers answer as briefly as possible and take no more than two minutes to answer any of the questions we'll begin with dr white dr white if there is no temple then what do you make of paul's reference to baptism for the dead well interestingly enough uh that wouldn't even be an issue from an lds perspective either especially if it's referring to people outside the church who wouldn't have the authority to engage in that activity anyways but my understanding of first corinthians chapter 15 first of all historically there were no temples in which they could be doing this i can guarantee you one thing there are no baptisms of the dead taking place in the temple in jerusalem therefore whatever is being referred to in first corinthians chapter 15 verse 29 cannot refer to the same thing that is practiced in lds temples today uh but my understanding first corinthians 15 29 focuses upon the preposition who pair otherwise what will those do who are baptized for the dead who pear is used by paul in a substitutionary sense and i believe in the context what he's saying is if there is no resurrection which is what first corinthians 15 is all about if there is no resurrection why baptize anyone as a new convert into the place of those who are and going undergoing persecution and even dying if there is no resurrection and this is exactly what he says notice what he says if the dead are raised not all why are they then baptized for them why are we also in danger every hour there's the persecution i protest brethren by the boasting in you which i have in christ jesus our lord i die daily if from human motives i fought with wild beasts at ephesus what does it profit me if the dead are not raised let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die the whole point being that if there is no resurrection then there is no reason to be bringing anyone else into this this fellowship where they're going to be persecuted or they're going to possibly even lose their lives the baptism then is the baptism that new converts replace those who have gone on to be in the presence of the lord dr hopkins in terms of the list of things that you enumerated that took place in the temple in jerusalem can you tell how those are paralleled in lds temples as much as you can comment unfortunately as you know i can't come um much i can only say that um uh each of the things that are mentioned um for example um endowed from on high it was the term that christ said that the apostle would be and and of course you've heard of the endowment uh so and it is intended to be an endowment from on high of knowledge or information so teaching is going on in the lds temples uh and um uh let's see praising and blessing god of course occurs in the temple uh the temples have the purpose whereby we could hear see or talk with god and that has happened in lds temples let's see um i'm sorry let's see singing in the temple i think has has occurred of course it's not um part of any regular temple ordinance but um prayer is a very significant part of what goes on in lds temple ordinances prayer circles which are mentioned in the scriptures are something that members of the church who attend the temple understand very well of course all references to purification ordinances whereby people are are washed or anointed are very meaningful to latter-day saints who are familiar with lds temple ordinances words like sprinkle water purifying upon them statements like holy garments references to holy garments references to how did it say [Music] the purification of the body by washing with pure water if they meant baptism they would have said baptism washing with poor pure water is a different thing that um was part of this um the understanding of what was going on something was going on there of that nature it was not made public it isn't made public now but a reference to it is made and that reference is very meaningful in terms of lds ordinances dr white could you comment on melchizedek in genesis 14 verses 18 through 20 as to who this person is could he be an old testament appearing of jesus christ incarnate i've heard that the hebrew meaning of the name melchizedek is king of righteousness which points to jesus christ the one and only person who has ever held the melchizedek priesthood yeah i think the important thing to remember is that there is only one melchizedek priest in the old testament and there is only one fulfillment in christ uh he is described as having no father no mother no genealogy now scholars have taken two perspectives on this one is that those words be taken literally and that that's a melchizedek was a pre-incarnate what we would call a christophany an appearance of christ nothing is said about his background or anything like that he simply appears and he is described in hebrews chapter 7 verses 2 and 3 as being made like unto the son of god uh so there are those who do take it as an old testament christophany others would say that no the the writer the hebrews is paralleling melchizedek with christ simply in the fact that the record does not record for us it doesn't say melchizedek ben jehu or something like that saying that he was the son of someone that there is no genealogy given no father or mother is listed anything along those lines uh and so in that particular situation they might say no that melchizedek was a historical human being who lived and died and that he was placed in the place that he did to provide this picture of the coming priesthood of christ in the life of abraham i think either one of those are possible i personally lean toward the first the idea of a christophany but i also recognize the propriety of of seeing that you cannot force the issue one way or another just simply on the next judicial ground dr hopkins you used hebrews chapter nine verses one through nine could you please comment on verses 10 and 11. uh i did as a matter of fact um but let me do it again um hebrews 9 was it 10 and 11 yes yeah um this is one this these in these two verses it specifies um or gives us a hint a little bit of an idea of the kinds of things that were going on uh in the um in the temple i apologize just for context i won't take away from your time if you could read those two verses i think well now are we talking about 10 and 11 right all right it says which stood only in meats and drinks and diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed on them until the time of reformation but christ being come and high priest of good things to come by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands that is to say not of this building um as to verse 11 you know this is the subject of um of christ being common high priest of good things to come by greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands that is to say not of this building this is reminiscent of of when christ spoke of himself his own body as a temple made with hands he said um in fact let me let me get that for you um all right if i can find my notes uh christ used the expression to refer to his own body he said i will destroy this temple that is made with hands and within three days i will build another maid without hands and this is a reference to this expression and the allegory is of course to his death and resurrection and the expressions made with or without hands refer to the fact that mortalities christ was partly mortal i mean a mortal being had something to do with the creation of his physical body whereas no mortal hand was involved in the creation of his resurrected body and that's what you know that's what the reference here to 9 11 is but remember that the fact that christ's physical body could be described as a temple made with hands did not prevent him from occupying or dwelling in that body during his mortal life dr white if there was no apostasy why are you not roman catholic or eastern orthodox if there was no apostasy why was the reformation necessary well you know i'm not a roman catholic or eastern orthodox because there was no apostasy when i say apostasy obviously we are defining this within the context of an evangelical lds dialogue the teaching of the apostasy is that there was a complete apostasy that is that all the priesthood authority was lost and the bible never predicts that never even mentions that there is a prophecy of apostasy which you can see going on during the days of paul he has to write to the churches he has to talk about false brethren within the churches he has to talk about those who have who have abandoned the faith denied the faith so on and so forth the seeming assumption on the basis of the of the writer is to associate both the lds concept with with church history and i would reject that i believe in apostolic succession i believe that you stand in the succession of the apostles when you believe what the apostles taught and the apostles teaching has been preserved for us in their writings called the scriptures and i do not believe that either modern eastern orthodoxy or modern roman catholicism is representative of even the church in the primitive period certainly would not find anyone at the council of nicaea who believes all the things that are taught or believed within roman catholicism or eastern orthodoxy today and so when the bible talks about an apostasy yes there have always been it will always be the experience of the church that there will be those who will be unfaithful to her but that does not mean that the teaching of christ that the church would continue or of paul that it would do so throughout all generations was untrue the defection of even many does not mean that god stops being faithful even to his few as he demonstrated over and over again in the old testament with the remnants even in the days of the greatest apostasy god still had his people who did not bow the knee to baal dr hopkins how do you respond to the bible's description of the church as the temple of the lord well let's read what it exactly says there because you know what that would help to make sure we're interpreting the right thing it says that um it says that now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens were the saints and of the household of god and are built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets jesus christ himself being the chief cornerstone i hope we don't think that the cornerstone is not still a living cornerstone christ is still alive just as we believe that there should still be apostles that are the foundation of the church we believe that christ is a living cornerstone of this building anyway in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the lord i don't see the mystery there i mean we are the the church is aim is to become uh as a group and holy temple unto the lord uh that does not mean that we do not have special buildings in which sacred ordinances are performed and in which we draw closer to the lord then you can draw at a chapel or a worldly place that does not mean that the temple of jerusalem was not correctly built by the command of the lord there's no reason to believe that the lord's purpose in building temples in the old testament which included having a place that somebody at least one person a year and moses certainly and the prophets could draw near to him could enter this holy of holies and speak with god there's no reason to think that that has changed any in new testament times now ultimately we hope it does completely if for example in revelations um 11 it speaks of seeing the temple in in the um uh in heaven and that that uh there was no that john saw it that temple and there was no temple there saw the the celestial kingdom actually and there was no temple there because god and jesus were the temple of it well that's the goal of this passage that we grow to that level a couple of last questions to try to squeeze in here dr white if we had the ark of the covenant today where would the church want it stored a museum or a temple i've never pondered that one i think it i think they stuck it in a box in a big warehouse someplace didn't they at least that last i saw somewhere in the 1940s but well you know isn't it interesting that uh that we do not and and that the lord made sure that that would not happen in the uh destruction of the temple of jerusalem in a.d 70 and that illustration of the fact that his wrath had had come upon in fulfillment of jesus prophecies upon the city of jerusalem my answer would would be that we would we would not build a shrine well let me take this back the church of jesus christ would not build a shrine because you see we already have the holy of holies within us that's what the holy spirit is when it was said earlier well you only have one person of the godhead the holy spirit well john 14 23 says the father and the son make their abode with his people through the presence of the holy spirit god dwells with his people and there would be many who would like i think in idolatry to build something that god has not authorized us to build uh to store something like that within it but god has not allowed that to happen and so in reality the the importance i think of this debate is to emphasize that um you know maybe uh maybe if you're an lds person you've heard some things about what the church is about that you normally don't hear from evangelicals i'm a churchman i believe that the local expression of the church is described in the bible as the pillar and foundation of the truth and i i apologize to any lds people here who may have spoken with evangelicals who do not have a biblical view of the church the church is extremely important it is very central to what god is doing in this world and it is in fact the place where he dwells with his people one last question for dr hopkins are the lds temples built according to biblical specifications there are no biblical specifications for latter-day temples other than uh perhaps the ezekiel chapter 40 verse 47. they are built pursuant to god's specifications exactly the same way that the temple jerusalem was built according to god's specifications yes they are built according to god's specifications we will be here next evening at 7 pm for another debate we would love to have you be part of that we have a uh pad of paper up here if you have signed up before for our mailing list but did not get a postcard this time we lost some of the names due to a hard drive failure and so uh please sign up if you'd like to get notification about future debates we have brochures and i would like to take the time now please thank both of our speakers for being generous enough to come and speak for us this evening you

Channel: Alpha & Omega Ministries

Views: 19,891

Rating: 4.7962961 out of 5

Keywords: Mormonism (Religion)

Id: 8NOFaupsJTU

Length: 126min 14sec (7574 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 14 2014