Who Is the Angel of the Lord? How to Find Jesus in the Old Testament pt 4

in our continued study of Jesus in the Old Testament we've come to the topic that I've been very excited to talk about which is the angel of the Lord we get this character throughout the Old Testament where multiple times he shows up and the question is you read the details about him you go who is this like is this an angel or is this Yahweh is this God who is this person exactly so what we're gonna do I'll give you the format for how I'm gonna cover this hopefully we'll get it all done tonight but I'm not gonna promise that my plan is this first we'll talk about who the angel of the Lord is by looking you know systematically through those passages multiple appearances of this particular interesting character in the Old Testament then I want to answer the question even if I identify this as Yahweh as God why do I say it's Jesus why what justification would I have for suggesting that this angel of the Lord is actually Jesus and then I want to start to look into objections and that might be where we run out of time so if we run out we'll pick up next time at the exact same spot but I want to look at objections because I think it's really important what I what I see in the teaching as I was researching for this is people teach about how who the angel of the Lord is from like they're kind of Christians teaching to the Christian audience but then there's the nontrinitarian groups who teach about the angel of the Lord and they love nothing more than to harp on that issue and they have lots of videos online but we never see the two sides interacting and so I would like to bring those objections up after we've walked through all the texts and show why I think that those objections don't stand it's important that we cover them though because at first they sound very impressive but then you think about them a little bit and and I think it might help so our main goal as we look at these different passages we're starting in Genesis 16 verse 7 the main goal is just understanding who is this person so I'm gonna I'm gonna skip over you know things like details about the story that are unrelated to identifying who this person is I'll skip over a lot of that stuff so it sort of we're digging in for a specific purpose so here we are in Genesis 16 verse 7 Hagar is running away from Sarai Hagar is pregnant at Sarah's request Hagar and Abraham or Abram sleep together then they produce and she becomes his konkey this kind of weird stuff goes on and of course tension arises when she becomes pregnant despises Sarah and she runs away so verse 7 the angel of the Lord and there's the first time we get that that phrase coming up in the Bible this is the very first instance of it the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness the spring on the way - sure and he said Hagar servant of Sarai where have you come from and where are you going she said I'm fleeing from my mistress Sarah the angel of the Lord said to her return to your mistress and submit to her now let's just say this so far the identity of this particular individuals unknown right he's called the angel of the Lord and that's probably in capitals in your in your Bible there that's Yahweh this is God's actual name so right so this is the angel of Yahweh and so we don't know who he is just yet but let's keep reading verse 10 the angels the Lord also said to her I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude and now we go huh you're gonna multiply her offspring you're the angel of the Lord and you're the one doing the multiplying this sounds kind of like what God said to Abraham I will multiply your offspring oh that's a Jew but the angel of the Lord here is claiming that he'll be the one to multiply the offspring that's just interesting verse 11 and the angel of the Lord said to her behold you are pregnant and shall bear a son you shall call his name Ishmael because the Lord has listens to your affliction okay well in verse 9 the implication is for that verse 10 the implication was this angel of Lord is actually Yahweh because he's the one doing the multiplying that language seems to speak of God and his promise to Abraham but then we get to verse 11 and the angel of Yahweh speaks about Yahweh the Lord has heard your affliction so he always a different person verse 12 he shall be a wild donkey of a man his hand against everyone and everyone's hand against him he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen so she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her you are a God of seeing for she said truly here I have I seen him sue me truly here I have seen him who looks after me forgive me I still quote the New King James on instantly without thinking about Paula pointed out the other day she's like you keep quoting the New King James even though you're reading the ESV it's not on purpose so what did she say in verse 13 that was in my mind just blows my mind she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her Yahweh who spoke to her you are a God of seeing and then she said to make in case it couldn't be more clear truly here I have seen him who looks after me who is God clearly in the text so we have this individual who comes he's the angel of the Lord in this very first instance occurrence of this phrase the angel of the Lord he shows up he speaks on behalf of Yahweh he talks as though he is Yahweh he says I will multiply your descendants yet he talks about Yahweh like you always somebody else that's interesting huh and then she says he was Yahweh and I saw him and he spoke to me so she identifies him as Yahweh in fact that phrase who spoke to her this is some people would say well this is obviously not Yahweh who's you know the angel spoke and Yahweh also spoke but in verse 8 9 10 11 and then finally 13 the the person speaking is the angel of the Lord so clearly this is the angel to Lord who is it who's being spoken of here yes okay so that's that's the first instance first occurrence of the angel is the Lord and you see what we're gonna do we're gonna put the pieces together we'll read the account and go who could this person be so it's a really interesting kind of I will study when you think about it and it really boils down to the glory of Jesus Christ at the end of the story when you when you really put it all together so let's look at Genesis 21 we have another instance where we get the angel of the Lord in fact specifically it's the angel of God and sometimes this individual is called the angel of the Lord sometimes he's called the angel of God so Genesis 21 verse 17 it says and God heard the voice of the boy and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her so we're back to Hagar again later on Ishmael's actually a child now and here God heard the voice of the boy and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her what troubles you Hagar fear not for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is up lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand i4i me I will make him into a great nation now who's who's speaking here it says God heard the voice and the angel of God calls to Hagar that's in verse 11 for 17 then in verse 18 continuing to speak it's the angel of God who's speaking and he says again I will make him into a great nation so I think of this is interesting this once again we're we're getting this sort of muddying of the waters who's who's speaking ears as the angel orders it's the Lord and I think and this is what I'm gonna say throughout that as we look at these different texts the muddying the confusion is intentional maybe sometimes when the Bible makes things unclear it's unclear on purpose because that's the point so let's let's keep reading so we'll get to Abraham offering Isaac and that's in Genesis 22 Genesis 22 verse 1 of Genesis 22 it says after these things God tested Abraham and said to him Abraham and he said Here I am he said take your son your only son Isaac whom you love and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you so who speaks to Abraham God clearly God in this text it's God speaking to Abraham and he's going to be offering his son and who do you think is it is it implied who will Abraham offer his son to not Baal hey God he's gonna offer his son to God that's from God's own command so this is clearly God but then let's keep reading verse 13 as we keep I'm sorry verse 10 as we keep going through Genesis 22 so then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son but the angel of the Lord and now we get this this individual again called to him from heaven and said Abraham Abraham and he said Here I am and notice even the the way he calls his identical to the way God called earlier God called and he says Abraham and Abraham says Here I am so the Angels the Lord calls him from heaven says Abraham Abraham he said Here I am he said do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him for now I know that you fear God okay so at this point in the text I'm going okay this angels Lord's not God because he goes don't touch him cuz I know you fear God seeing that you have not withheld your son your only son from me wait wait a minute in verse one God not the angel God is the one who tells Abraham sacrifice your son obviously it's gonna be to God then the angel of the Lord shows up and he says I know you fear God because you haven't withheld your son from me I think it's an intentional puzzle I think it's an intentional puzzle let's keep in mind that the scripture tells us that in Jesus there is a mystery revealed there is a question that's answered in the identity of Jesus Christ as we see him in the New Testament and that I think connects to how we see Jesus in the Old Testament we see oftentimes the question marks it's like the old the old traditional Church answer is Jesus to everything well in some cases it really is and in this sense we see Jesus in the Old Testament I believe so let's keep reading in verse 13 let's this Lacan says and Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked and behold behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by his thorn his horns excuse me and Abraham went and took the RAM and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son so Abraham called the name of that place the Lord will provide Jehovah Jireh or Yahweh Jireh as it is said to this day on the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided and the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said now who's calling to Abraham now the angel of the Lord and he says by myself I have sworn declares the Lord I'll keep it that's like almost normal language for a prophet thus saith the Lord okay so now he seems to be separate from the Yahweh are different than Yahweh so by myself I've sworn declares the Lord because you've done this and if not withheld your son your only son I will surely bless you well who's doing the blessing now well now it's God right the angels saying God will bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven as the sands on the seashore and your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because you have obeyed my voice so I think that there's this natural tension I mean we have the Angels Lord saying I'm gonna do this Abraham I will bless you he says I'm gonna bless Ishmael as well but then here we have him saying God says he'll bless well what's going on here let's look at Genesis 31 here's another another passes Genesis chapter 31 and while you're on your way there this actually did puzzle ancient Israelites and there were even those who in oh man I may do more research on this and bring it to you guys sometime but there are even those who believed in sort of two powers two different sort of it's hard to use language to describe what they were thinking but they were thinking there were like two yahweh's somehow because they were reading these texts going how do we explain this and it wasn't until like the second century after Christ that they made that a heresy in Judaism and said that's not appropriate you can't say that sort of thing so it's interesting as it sort of lays the groundwork for I understanding who Jesus is later on I think Genesis 31 verse 11 we get the angel of God again it says then the angel of God said to me in a dream Jacob and I said Here I am and he said lift up your eyes and see all the goats that mate with the flock are striped spotted and modeled for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you so here we have the angel of God and so far he's just the angel of God you would you would naturally not think this was God you would just think it's the angel of God a Messenger of God but in verse 13 he continues speaking and he says this I am the god of Bethel he doesn't say thus saith the Lord I am the God of Bethel he doesn't say the Lord declares he just says straight out let's read it again in context right lift up your eyes and see all the goats that mate with the flock ur striped spotted and modeled for I've seen all that Laban is doing to you I am the god of Bethel where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me now arise go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred here this to me is is even stronger than everything we've heard so far because the angel is a straight-up says I'm God I'm God he just declares himself I am the God of Bethel he doesn't say the Lord says or anything like that he just declares it in Genesis 28 we actually get that story of Bethel so let me read to you really quick what he's referring to when he says I'm the God of Bethel it's it's Genesis 28 12 he says any dreamed and behold there was a ladder set up on the earth and the top of it reached to heaven and behold the angels of God were ascending and descending on it and behold the Lord stood above it and said I am the Lord the God of Abraham your father and the god of Isaac the land on which you lie I will give you I will give to you and to your offspring so that God this angel says I'm that God that's pretty clear I don't know what I would do with this except for have to acknowledge that in some sense the angel is God it's Yahweh but in another sense the angel the Lord seems to speak as though Yahweh is somehow other really interesting stuff so that same Jacob years later he speaks a blessing on ephraim and manasseh you might be familiar with this these are these are two boys and he switches his hands over so he blesses the older versus the younger and and it's kind of controversial stuff going on there and in Genesis 48 we read about it Genesis 48 15 and let's let's listen to how he blesses them they are Joseph's sons and so verse 15 it says any blessed Joseph and said the God before whom my father's Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has been my Shepherd all my life long to this day the angel who has redeemed me from all evil blessed the boys that's interesting isn't it he says God who is this person God who is this person the angel who is this person and then singular blessed the boys the blessings coming from God who is also the angel the angel who's redeemed me from all evil that's really interesting now you could say well Mike God is simply doing it through the angel like he's just like God bless the boys and do it through your angel the problem with this sort of tactic is that it doesn't let the text say what it says you have to add words right in order to say that you have to go God who this and this guy who listen is the angel the context is you have these three statements about one being taking an action that's the context you have to just add words to the text the angel you know through whom God will bring this blessing like you have to just sort of stick it in there it's kind of like when I'm encountering Jehovah's Witnesses and the scripture in John 5 it says that Jesus made himself equal with God and they constantly add to the text and they say well that's just what the Pharisees thought and I'll go well that would be convenient it would help you with your theology but it's not what the text actually says you can't just add to the text you got to let us say so the most natural reading is an order one more time the God before whom my father's Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has been my Shepherd all my life long to this day the angel who has redeemed me from all evil bless the boys and so I'm couple that with the passage we just went to where the angel of God came and said I'm the God of Bethel so it makes sense and you can understand why he would even put it that way because that angel had been room that angel had been revealed as the god of Bethel all right let's guess let's ask another question at the burning bush what happened there who appeared to Moses in the burning bush so let's look at Exodus chapter 3 Exodus chapter 3 and we're gonna read a big chunk of this passage and by putting all this together you can see that there is a consistent flow of thought this is not chicanery this is not like you know Bible study trickery going on this is just the text itself and X's three it says now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro the priest of Midian and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb the mountain of God and the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush I wonder how many of us have read this and didn't realize the person in the bush is the angel of the Lord he appears out of a flame of fire or in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush he looked and behold the bush was burning yet it was not consumed and that's the thing that caught his attention he's like how is it it's like on fire but it's still got green leaves like what's going on and Moses said I will turn aside to see this great sight why the bush is not burned when the and by the way when you're a shepherd out in the middle of nowhere that's a really interesting thing to go look at I'm yeah I think II maybe nowadays were harder to entertain but I feel like what is that exactly he wanted to go check it out I mean if you have a funny-looking cricket you'll probably follow it around for a little while out there I imagine so verse four when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see God called to him out of the bush but who's in the bush though the angel of the Lord who calls to Moses out of the bush God it's God speaking from the bush but the angel of the Lord is in the bush let's keep reading it says Moses Moses and he said Here I am then he said do not come near take your sandals off your feet for the place on which you were standing is holy ground and he said I am the God of your father the God of Abraham the god of Isaac and the God of Jacob now this is okay for the angel of the Lord to actually be God in some sense because we've already got the groundwork laid in Genesis for this concept so Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look at God so the only thing that we know that he can see is the fire and the angel Lord appears in the fire and now it's saying that he doesn't want to look at God and the only visible thing that we know that he can look at is the angel of the Lord in the fire so that the identity of these two beings is being merged in some sense then in verse 7 then the Lord said I have surely seen the affliction of my people who were in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters I know their sufferings and I've come down to deliver them and he goes on and talks about what he's going to do I just want to point out that it's Yahweh who speaks here according to verse 7 and then in verse 11 but Moses said to God so he's talking to God Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt he said but I will be with you God says God will be with him and this shall be the sign for you that I have sent you when you have brought the people out of Egypt you shall serve God on this mountain and now we have God referring to God in the second person that's interesting is that third person third person yeah second person will be you so you shall serve God on this mountain then Moses said to God if I come to the people of Israel and say to them the god of your father's has sent me to you and they asked what is his name what shall you say to them what shall I say to them God said to Moses I am Who I am and he said say to the people of Israel I am has sent me to you I want to remember these things because we're going to come back to them a little bit later verse 16 as we keep reading it says go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them the Lord the God of your father's the God of Abraham of Isaac and Jacob has appeared to me question why on earth does verse 2 say the angel of the Lord appeared to him and then down in verse 16 he's told tell him God appeared to you with the aims of the Lord appeared to Moses that's the language and God appeared to Moses that's I think pretty interesting in Acts chapter 7 we read about Stephen as he gives kind of this long history lesson of Israel to the people who were stoning him it's he's the first martyr of the early church and he says this about Abraham excuse me about the burning bush passage in verse 30 of Acts chapter 7 now when forty years had passed an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai in a flame of fire in a bush when Moses saw it he was amazed at the sight and as he drew near to look there came the voice of the Lord isn't it interesting how even the way he says it is delicate like Stephens a way of talking about it's like delicate like he's trying to let the text speak so he goes the Angels Lord appeared and he drew near and he heard the voice of the Lord maybe you know they're just wanting to preserve the difficulty that the text presents us with I think it's kind of interesting now if the angel of the Lord is not in fact God in this burning bush passage then I don't really know what function he serves why is he brought up at all that's interesting all right Exodus 23 Exodus chapter 23 remember that God told Moses that he was going to be with them I will be with you well in Exodus 23 verse 20 he says behold I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I've prepared pay careful attention to him and obey his voice do not rebel against him for he will not pardon your transgression for my name is in him my name is in him that's a pretty profound thing to say God's name is in him and we don't think his name means just a title obviously name means more than that to God now some people say that this means the angel has to be God because God would never share his name with anyone other than himself and that may be the case I'm not sure I'd like to have more clarity on Scripture from that if I'm going to make that point but I will say this later on in John 17 6 Jesus shows up and he says I have manifested your name he's talking to the Father I've manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world yours they were and you gave them to me and they've kept your word he says I've manifested your name Jesus shows up and tells them I've brought the name of God to these people and this angel in the Old Testament it's said of him that his God's name is in him and that would marry well with the concept of who Jesus is works perfectly fine in Christian theology and that's probably the biggest case for it it just works so easily for this angel of the Lord person to be the second person of the Trinity to be Jesus because Jesus could talk in all the ways the angel of the Lord talks think about this he could talk about God as though God is somehow other and he can also talk about God as though he's God he could speak on behalf of God as though he's God cuz he is but he could also speak of the Father totally as though he's somehow different than him and that terminology is laid out here in the Old Testament hundreds of years before Jesus shows up I think that sometimes Christians don't realize how Old Testament our faith actually is until we actually get into it so we'll keep reading here um in Exodus 23 I share with you that there's that God says I'm gonna send an angel before you my name is in him be careful to listen to what he says well in judges chapter two I think this concept comes up again in judges chapter two it says in verse 1 now the angel of the Lord here here he shows up again went up from Gilgal to Vulcan and set and he said I brought you and let's just get this he's actually traveling goes on a journey from one city to another city and he's proclaiming a message as he goes that's kind of how you had to give messages back in the day like if you want everyone to know something you just have to walk all over the place saying it over and over again and that's how he does this now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to bow came and said I brought you up from the land of Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give your father's weight is it's the angel of the Lord but he claims credit for bringing them up out of Egypt in fact he claims credit for being the one who swore and made oaths to the fathers of the people of Israel that would be God right and it continues I said I will never break my covenant with you and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land you shall break down their altars but you've not obeyed my voice now flash back to Exodus 23 21 where God says pay careful attention to him and obey his voice the angel the Lord obey the angels voice and then here just chapter 2 verse 2 he says but you have not obeyed my voice and he's speaking as though he's God and he's yet he's the angel what is this you have done so now I say I will not drive them out before you but they shall become thorns in your sides and their goats or their gods sorry their gods shall be a snare to you as soon as the angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the people of Israel that people lifted up their voices and wept so that seems to be pretty consistent it makes a lot of sense it makes the most sense is the simplest explanation is that this is basically a prefiguring of the the plurality that is in God he's three and one you know there's there's it's not just God is that's it you know rather there's like father-son spirit three persons one being and so we're getting this really sort of the groundwork laid the preparation for this is laid in the Old Testament more clearly revealed in the new but it's there now notice this this this angel of the Lord says I'm the one that made the covenant with your fathers I made the oath or the promises to your father's but Genesis 17 here's what it says about the oath the promise and notice who's making the promise when Abraham was 99 years old the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him I am God Almighty walk before me and be blameless that I may make my covenant between me and you and may multiply you greatly so God appears but here's the interesting they think God appears Abraham saw something that represented God well what I could do by putting all these texts together is say in Genesis 17 Abraham must have seen the angel of the Lord because he comes later that same angel and says I swore to your father's very interesting so he speaks as if he is God not just a messenger and most messengers don't really do this sort of thing they don't go up and they you know they'll speak even as if they are though you're so-and-so says you need to do this to do it but they don't like impersonate them and then straight up say yeah I'm the person I'm me I'm the I'm the God of Bethel they don't typically say that sort of thing so judges chapter 6 let's keep going did you know there was more judges chapter 6 verse 11 this is a really interesting story it's the beginning of the story of Gideon who like the book of Judges starts well and ends poorly unfortunately so Gideon here in verse 11 of Judges 6 it says now the angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree of Ofra let's just remember where the angel of the Lord is he sits down under a tree he's hanging out under this terror bent the tree which belonged to joash the obvious right while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites at some point in your in your life you read this passage and it hits you you don't beat out wheat in a winepress you do that because you because there's a walls to a winepress so you're hiding while you're whacking the wheat out because the Midianites would take it so I just think it's a really interesting observation verse 12 it says and the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him the Lord is with you o mighty man of Valor and then continuing on verse 14 remember our focus is who is this angel and the Lord turned to him and said go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian did I not send you this is interesting so we have the angel of the Lord shows up like physically visibly present this is this person and he speaks to Gideon and then in verse 14 the Lord turned to him and said we didn't have the appearance of God we don't know where God is but if we're gonna say God turns to him that implies that there was some sort of presence that was so this could be the angel of the Lord or it could not be I think it's open to interpretation verse 15 and he said to him please Lord how can I save Israel behold my clan is the weakest in Manasseh and I am the least in my father's house and the Lord and it's God speaking here again the Lord said to him but I will be with you and you shall strike the Midianites as one man and he said to him if now I have found favor in your eyes then show me a sign that it is you who speak with me and and now listen to Gideon's solution on how he's gonna figure out that this is legit cuz that's Gideon's thing he's like wait for real like he says that's his wait for real way are you sure wait let's check again like he's he could have been an accountant you know like double and triple check everything and and so he says verse 18 please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present and set it before you now whose Gideon speaking to when he uses these words he's speaking to God right speaking to Yahweh and he's and obviously always present because he's like stay here at this location I'm gonna bring a gift and present it before you I'm gonna actually give it to you and now we start to go okay is this angel of the Lord the same as Yahweh and he said I will stay till you return verse 19 so Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an e5 flour the meat he put in a basket and the broth he put in a pot he brought them to him to who well previously it was always God right I mean it was the angels Lord shows up but then it's the Lord turn and spoke and he's talking to God so they him going backwards would be talking about God but when you read the next few words of the verse under the terebinth tree that's the angel of the Lord so he brings them to him under the terebinth and presented them and the angel of God said to him take the meat and the unleavened cakes and put them on this rock and pour the broth over them and he did so then the angel of the Lord reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes and the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight poof gone then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of Yahweh he's like he's the angel of the Lord he's like okay this remember he was doing it as it was like a test maybe not because he's testing God with maybe because he's testing himself like I want to make sure I'm not wrong I'm not crazy and so he's like whoa alas Oh Lord God for now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face but the Lord said him peace be to you do not fear you shall not die and then we have at the very end verse 23 God speaks again how does God speak at this point I don't know it doesn't say the names Lord vanished he couldn't see him anymore doesn't actually say he was gone but just as he vanished from his sight so maybe he's still speaking I don't know verse 23 doesn't seem to make it clear but it's interesting to me that Gideon thought he was gonna die because he's an Israelite and he knows that when you see God you die like that's what I remember a mountain on Sinai he's like don't draw in here you see me you die Moses I can't even show you all of all of who I am like that because you're gonna die that's that's interesting so in Gideon's mind he's I think he's seeing God I think that's what's implied alright let's let's look at another one judges chapter 13 and now we read about Samson's parents Samson not Samsun that's different Samson's parents in verse 6 of Judges 13 then the woman came and told her husband a man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God very awesome I did not ask him where he was from and he did not tell me his name but he said to me behold you shall conceive and bear a son so then drink no wine or strong drink and eat nothing unclean for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death and that was kind of the deal with Samson he was supposed to be set aside for God's purposes and he liked the book of Judges start swelling into poorly you get this theme in the book of Judges ending poorly it's kind of a warning to us all then manoa prayed to the Lord and said O Lord please let the man of God whom you sent come again to us and teach us what we are to do with the child who will be born and God listened to the voice of Manoah and the angel of God came again to the woman as she sat in the field but manoa her husband was not with her okay so we have this this story so far this angel of God is just the angel of God right I wouldn't identify it as being God it's just it could just be an angel just because it has the word the in front of angel doesn't mean it has to be like a pre-incarnate Jesus right it could just be an angel but as we read on in verse 16 it says the angel of the Lord and here's how we get that the angel of the Lord the angel of God they're synonymous they're not separate beings because they're used of the same being here so and the angel of the Lord said to me Noah if you detain me I will not eat of your food but if you prepare a burnt offering then offer it to Yahweh and that's important because it says here for manoa did not know that he was the angel of Yahweh the angel of the Lord it seems to me that even though they were Israelites in the times of Judges there was all sorts of paganism invading into the Israelite people it may have been that manoa wasn't sure what God this being was representing and so he says if you're gonna offer it you better offer to Yahweh like don't don't offer to save all for that for for example so manoa said to the angel of the Lord what is your name so that when your words come true we may honor you and this is one of those interesting verses in the Old Testament he says and the angel of the Lord said to him why do you ask my name seeing it is wonderful huh that is I mean that's just confusing it's what do you mean by that why do you ask my name's seeing it is wonderful wonderful his name is is that mean his name is wonderful like call me wonderful or something about the quality of my name is that it's wonderful well I know that in Isaiah it tells us that his name shall be called wonderful speaking prophetically of Christ wonderful counselor right mighty God everlasting father Prince of Peace this is this is interesting to me so verse 19 so Noah Noah took the young goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the Lord to Yahweh to the one who works wonders and Manoah and his wife were watching and when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar the angel of the Lord went up in the flame of the altar now Manoah and his wife were watching and they fell on their faces to the ground before we look at that how they respond to this I think that let's just say this is really a pre-incarnate Jesus and he has sins in the sacrifice in the smoke of the sacrifice and I just I just thought just his my heart I mean Christ was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world but then in verse 21 it says the angel of the Lord appeared no more to manoa and to his wife then minoan knew that he was the angel of Yahweh so he's like okay for sure this was all legit and real kind of like Gideon it's like God's proved himself and manoah's said to his wife that was awesome I'd love to do that again no no he says we are going to die we shall surely die for we have seen God so manoah's convinced that what he just saw was in fact God now if this was just an isolated passage fine but when you put all these together it seems to be a clear message that the angel of the Lord is somehow God yet different than Yahweh at the same time as being Yahweh now let me bring in to you one of the most puzzling New Testament verses John 1:18 after we've covered all this stuff I feel like now I can bring this in and you're gonna go Oh John 1:18 Jesus says no one has ever seen God the only God who is at the father's side he has made him known what you've never seen God but God who's at the father's side speaking of obviously the father right but God the son who's at the father's side he's made him known this is one of the reasons one of the verses why I would say this is Jesus in the Old Testament because he's the one making him known he's the one proclaiming who God is he can say you've never seen the father but I have showed him to you interesting the tension about how did all these Old Testament people see God yet not see God ah who's the angel of the Lord God yet in another sense not really interesting stuff so there's actually other scriptures I'd like to get into some time but I'm gonna say that because there's there's sort of other verses in the Old Testament that build this case for not too different Yahweh's but this case for the blurring of the identity of of God as not only this monotheistic God but also sometimes you have Yahweh talking about Yahweh and these kind of concepts that makes sense with a Trinitarian Christian view of things and it's right there but we'll look more of those at a later time what I want to do right now is give you a couple scriptures that in addition to the ones I just shared give a case for why this is Jesus why is this Jesus there's one that I'll admit is a little controversial it's Micah 5:2 but I think it's pretty significant Micah 5:2 you know this one actually but you O Bethlehem Ephrathah you who are little too little to be among the clans of Judah from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel who's coming forth is from of old from ancient days and that phrasing is really interesting from you Bethlehem someone's gonna come forth to me and he will be the ultimate ruler and his comings forth oh that's been happening forever that's been happening going way back in time he's ultimately will come forth but yet he's been coming forth that seems to me to Mary very well with everything that we've done so far tonight you know that this angel of the Lord is is the one who's been coming forth now there's a debate on the Hebrew word there coming forth it could also mean origins his origins are from forever you know that the idea that he's eternal and so it could also mean that and that's why I say that's slightly controversial so if it means what I'm inclined to think then that's a really good case for Jesus being identified anytime you see sort of a theophany an appearance of God to just assume it's Jesus because he's been going forth but there's other reasons as well john 8:58 john 8:58 jesus said to them truly truly I say to you before Abraham was I am it sees I am statements in John some people they use them a little recklessly but they are legitimate I am statements from Jesus in the book of John and here's one of the most profound ones before Abraham was I am I am tell him I am since you and we get this from multiple places in scripture that that God is the I am and Jesus refers to himself as this guy in fact this is how God identified it to himself to mow in the burning bush I am so who was in the burning bush well before Abraham was I am I think that's interesting John 20:28 Thomas answered him my Lord and my God my Lord and my God why is that significant it's significant because we just simply have a plain and simple verification Jesus is God like He is God from all time for all time he's God john 14:9 this kind of goes with the one we showed earlier john 1:18 that where he said no one has ever seen God the only God who is at the father's side has made him known well this goes with that john 14:9 he says jesus said to him have I been with you so long and you still do not know me Philip whoever has seen me has seen the father how can you say show us the father how can you say show us the father so there's another one where we're just getting the idea that Jesus is the representative you know he is the one who goes forth to reveal God to us and he is also God and that marries perfectly with this but now there may be a question floating in your head and here's one of the objections is your mic you're identifying Jesus as an angel like ontologically that like in his in his nature who he is you can't call him an angel Hebrews makes it very clear Jesus is not an angel he's greater than the angels Hebrews 1 and I would say absolutely but we often use the word angel a little clumsily and so the word itself simply means messenger representative quartiere or angel like you're thinking of an angelic being but the word itself is used 213 times in the Old Testament it's Malak in the Hebrew and it's used often times of human people so it's obviously not speaking of their identity at speaking of their role their messengers it's used of humans many many times it's also translated as messenger not only in the plural but in the singular for instance second Samuel 1122 so the messenger the angel the Malak same word the messenger went and came and told David all that Joab had sent him to tell it's just a messenger was he you know it doesn't have anything to do with whether he's an angelic being or a human or anything else is just a messenger that's the point sometimes the word is translated angel but refers to humans perhaps metaphorically like a Kish calls David an angel of God this could be a metaphor like oh you're you're you know you're an angel you know like we use it kind of metaphorically saying that they're a great help or really nice to us or something like that so that's one of the objections is but you know you can't use the word angel to refer to Jesus you're changing who he is but yet all the work we just did was to say this angel is clearly Yahweh right and in a sense not and that is Jesus right he is God but he's not the father and that marries perfectly well and it works with the terminology of angel I actually one day I'd love to do for my own sake just more studies into the concept of angels and different types of angelic beings we don't have a whole lot of information in Scripture but we have more than we probably realized in the text so one day one day all I'd like to do that another objection because I do have time for some objections so this is good the Jewish principle of agency this will come up anybody who wants to refute this usually here's how it goes they're oftentimes coming from a perspective where they do not believe Jesus is God eternal right they don't believe that to begin with so they of course have to refute this whole angel of the Lord thing because it's gonna come and get thrown in their face so they will all bring up this concept shalyah the the Hebrew principle of agency and it goes like this it's it's like a legal thing almost and the person who goes who is sent is as the person who sent them because they're their agent so they can speak on their behalf they can speak like it's them talking that's the Jewish principle the Jewish legal emissary or agent that's what that person is the Shelia performs an act of legal significance it says for the benefit of the Synder as opposed to him or herself it's comparable to the Hebrew term from the Greek world apostolos which I got from a website that was trying to debunk the angel of the Lord being Jesus so so I'm trying to get this information from them so it goes like this a person's agent is regarded as the person himself and they would say something like this Mike I know it may seem like the angel of the Lord is Yahweh because he speaks in the first person as though he's Yahweh but this is just ignorance of the culture you're just so unaware of Jewish thinking you're too Gentile minded and you just don't know that it's the normal conventions of ancient Jews that the principle of agency that well-known concept where an agent is as the one who sent him that this clearly allows that person to speak and sound like their God when they're not God so therefore they're not God and for an example they'll go to I think there's only one passage they would go to and Deuteronomy I didn't get it in my notes unfortunately but where Moses he talks and at one point he shifts and it sounds like he's talking as though he's got and it's however it may I point out it's not nearly as profound or clear as the statements from the angel of the Lord that we've already read this may well be the principle of agency and that's my response it's unwise to argue that this principle doesn't exist that's not wise at all but I feel like the people who want to use Shelia to say the the Angels Lord is not Jesus they're just blowing it way out of proportion it just seems like totally abusing the principle the principles like a legal thing I can I can speak on their behalf but they don't imitate them that doesn't mean that they go like imagine if I came to you and you've got this principle in your head this Shelia principle in her head and I just want you to know it's really me so I show up and I say hey I'm Mike I'm Mike from Hosanna I'm Mike from The Sunday night service and you go probably just Shelia he's just speaking as though he's Mike but he's not really Mike and I'll go yeah no I'm the Mike who made those promises before I'm the Mike who helped you out and got you through those problems and I go I get it I get it Mike sent you you see you just you just don't bring the principle that far by throwing the this principle of which everybody does who disagrees with the angel of the Lord being Jesus by throwing this principle up what they've done is they basically made it impossible there's nothing the Angels Lord could say to convince them that it's actually Yahweh there's just no words that could be used he's like yeah it's me I'm Yahweh oh look we've seen God like no no shalyah like I can use this thing it's it's like the the skeleton key to unlock the door and escape seeing him for who he is I think that's unfortunate so I could share more on that but I think that's the biggest issue it's when we look at the particulars just go back over the study in your head yeah this is not a representative but not merely a representative obviously is a represent but not merely is clearly claiming to also be God and there's very good contextual reasons to think so I doubt the show Leah spoke like that I really doubt it and I'd have to see specific examples to think that they did there's another challenge though and that is when I say that Jesus came and we read about the Angels of Lord and he's spoken of in humanoid terms am I saying Jesus was physically incarnate before he was incarnate before he was in flesh before he came as a human that he came as a human that's it that's a problem isn't it I mean that would confuse me a little bit I'm going hold on when are you saying Jesus coming as a baby though that's not it that wasn't the first time or that wasn't the only time he appeared in human form let me respond to that because what we need to know to do now is look at the differences between Jesus coming in the Incarnation and these Christ often ease these appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament and here's some of the differences appearing in some sort of body is not the same as taking on human nature living a full human life and dying a human death the angel of the Lord for instance the Old Testament appearances they may not really be truly human we don't know what they are they do things humans can't do like they show up and they disappear in a flame of fire like you try that like this was there's something else going on here right there's not they may not really truly be human they may just be appearing in this form for this cause which explains like the vanishing and things like that the Old Testament appearance is maybe perhaps you could say they even are human but not involve a human fall in nature there's no fall in nature so there's no sin nature that's there there's no temptations that are there it's not really our form it's just a form like ours if if and that's an option although I'm I'm inclined to not even think that it's fully human the Old Testament appearances these is angel of the Lord appeared says they did not involve human parentage or birth it's not like the angel of the Lord jest stated in a womb came out live the human life and then showed up was like hey I'm here that never happened that happened with Jesus when he shows up in in Mary's womb and he lives a full human life so there's a radical difference another issue is the Old Testament appearances are not a humbled condescension coming down lowly the angel Lord shows up and he's pretty glorious when he comes and they're like I'm gonna die right people saw Jesus they didn't think I'm gonna die cuz he humbled himself lowly and came actually as a human not just in some sort of representative you know shape or size but he came as a human so even though they may well be appearances of Christ and I think that they are personally he's not lowly he's not truly human he's not represented representative of the human race he doesn't represent all of us in those he represents simply God coming to to communicate and didn't die didn't get born and didn't live a human life didn't suffer temptations like it's completely unlike the Incarnation so hopefully that answers the question - say the Incarnation different than a Christ Stephanie cry Stephanie we're not even sure if there was blood in those veins or what we don't know but with Jesus we know exactly what he was and who he came as and if somebody after all this was like Mike I'm still not convinced like I just don't believe you the angel of the Lord is Jesus I would say the worst case scenario is that the Angels the Lord is not Jesus but still somehow stands as a prefigurement of Jesus so that we can get the concepts of who Jesus would be when he showed up because you still can't escape it he's like he's like Yahweh and I'm the angel of the Lord and yet Yahweh says and yet I say and there's this this confusion of persons in a sense that's meant to set us up so that we can have a better understanding of the Trinity a couple questions that might come up is is is every single instance of the phrase the angel of the Lord or the angel of God is every instance representing a cry Stephanie and I'm not convinced it is I think you just have to look at each passage because it's a generic phrase like the angel of the Lord could be who's that oh that's the angel angel food well the angel de lor like this this could be a generic terminology as well so I considered looking at the individual cases I think it's like 39 times it shows up altogether and yeah and I think that's I think that's actually all I wanted to say about that but what I'll do is I just realize I'm at the end of my notes and blink so what I want to do next week next time we meet is I want to talk about kind of build on this and talk about this further concept of there being sort of what some people like I said these two powers these two like Yahweh's one like - mah hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one and yet you have things like not just when it uses the phrase phrase the angel of the Lord but other instances in the Old Testament where it draws out this sort of difference between Yahweh and Yahweh and you're like what does this mean and we'll talk more about that next time and we'll get into the terminology of why John one uses the phrase the word to talk about Jesus and when the word of the Lord came to the people of Israel what is that about exactly so let's pray father we thank you for your word amen to that and we pray that you would you just continue to guide us and give us wisdom as we handle these lofty and high concepts that we see in Scripture may we do so carefully thoughtfully but Jesus what we realized as we read this stuff is you're you're amazing and when you come humbly and lowly in a manger you live a human life and you allow people to spit upon you and curse you you brought yourself so low so that you could love us since you could forgive us so you could redeem us and we're so grateful that we can come to know you we're just or blown away by who you are and we pray that our minds would continue to just grow in our appreciation of the identity of this Jesus in Jesus name Amen [Music]

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 66,015

Rating: 4.8845749 out of 5

Keywords: Who is the angel of the Lord, is Jesus the angel of the Lord, is the angel of the Lord Jesus, shaliah, principle of agency, who is the angel of God, is Jesus the angel of God, Jesus in the OT, Jesus in the Old Testament part 4, how to find Jesus in the Old Testament, examples of Christophanies, Christophanies in the OT, theophany, who is the angel of jehovah, angel of the Lord, angel of Jehovah, who is the angel of YHWH, Mike Winger, who is the angel of god in the old testament

Id: ryCyQ4N08Q0

Length: 55min 33sec (3333 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 02 2018