D&D Barbarians in 2022 | Web DM | TTRPG | D&D

I don't know hey everybody how's it going it is uh Thursday this is web DM I am Jim Davis a very beardy Jim Davis today uh and it is a post Halloween uh here at the web DM Demi plane and this week we are talking about uh my favorite class one of the my most played classes in fifth edition um the the Barbarian so we're gonna get into uh the current status of that class what it's like playing a barbarian in 5e what are some of the issues of it how are some ways we can imagine or hope that one d d uh improves upon the class and uh yeah hanging out taking questions for the next hour or so here on web DM so yeah if you want to support the channel hang out and hear more about how my Halloween one shot went uh go and check us out over on patreon and uh get that podcast comes out this Friday check it out uh we have over 206 60 something uh other uh podcast episodes to check out so head on over to our patreon and uh Sports channel and uh get some audio goodness for your listening uh pleasure so there you go all right let's see here so uh this is your first time catching us on the live stream be sure to ask your question uh with a big capital letters question uh in front of it it lets us pick them out of the chat and make sure that they make it into uh the secret backstage question log I will pull questions from to ask and occasionally uh over on our podcast uh just get through all of them answer all of them or as many as we can so uh there you go all right here we go so I discovered something about myself as a Dungeons and Dragons player through the course of fifth edition and it's that I was not as tied to spell casters as I thought I was up until fifth edition I was like I am a spellcaster only please do not give me any kind of class that doesn't uh that doesn't have spell slots and what I found was that spellcasters and 5e were just sort of like I'm not having that that much fun playing them what's going on with the Marshalls over here it has has fifth edition done anything to improve the situation for them from what I remember in the 3.5 era and to me the answer is yes it markedly uh so and very satisfying to play martial characters in fifth edition and a lot of that for me is that I don't I don't find the spells that have that much of an impact as they did in Prior editions and so yeah there's a lot of spell casters there's a lot more like cool buttons to push to break the rules of the game that other classes have that's great let them have those things they're shiny buttons that to me don't have as strong of an impact as maybe they used to have but hitting something really hard being able to take hits that is still important to Dungeons and Dragons gameplay no matter what kind of games you're playing even even if it's like a high social Intrigue kind of game where the fighting is is few and far between more set piece battles like having a barbarian on the team is still legit right like there's still a a threat in being until initiative is rolled um and I find that barbarians really scratch a a simple effective gameplay Loop that I like that if I only engage in that simple gameplay loop I will get bored but that's the case with anything right and and yet the Barbarian core Loop is so effective so simple like I can keep coming back to it it's like this is satisfying to just like rage and Reckless attack every now and then get a big crit uh you know and have it be satisfying to play through a lot of different flavors of that going on but at the same time as as mechanically satisfying as I find that experience like from a like a narrative side of things I find myself with so many questions when it comes to the Barbarian like what is a barbarian in this context are all barbarians fueled by their anger really because like that just like starts to stretch my suspension of disbelief that's needed to immerse myself and play the game the way I want to in a way that I'm I'm just you know it takes me out of it it's like well anchors like this other emotion that covers other kinds of deeper things you know or or maybe there's other ways we could imagine rage and the like like really they're all just uncontrollably angry like okay but the rules don't really necess necessarily reinforce that so it's really more of a role play thing then there's the whole barbarians and civilization angle in the complicated definitions for that like as a historian I find it fascinating but also presented way too simplistically and it's one of those things we have to put on my my fantasy fan hat and be like well really this is all inspired by like Conan and Conan knockoffs and the archetype they're playing with here is someone who is capable in combat a a force to be reckoned with in combat but that it doesn't come from skill and training like the fighters prowess does the fighter has martial training they they have they had instruction practice but you know potentially experience of some kind before they started adventuring and The Barbarians combat prowess their physical prowess entirely comes from a you know a rough upbringing of living in the Wilds of living far away from the centers of so-called civilization in the Lincoln I think for d d game it's okay to not necessarily get into the nuances of all of that and to just go we have the d d Barbarian is just this Outsider someone who is not from around here who by virtue of the fact that they live mostly you know either a nomadic lifestyle or live out in the wild has you know inured themselves to Everyday hardship and pain is able to push themselves and push their bodies in ways that like just mere Fighters can't like in that sense barbarians almost have more in common with monks or or even Sorcerers to some extent and that they're capable of pushing their physical bodies to superhuman uh you know Heights as it were and if anything like those are areas we could improve the core Barbarian is fulfilling more of that promise of this Herculean archetype someone that's just they're just strong and mighty and indomitable you can't stop them they might not always hit the hardest they might not have the best moves both narratively and mechanically but like they're going to be the last standing and so I that's the promise of the Barbarian and I think the fifth edition mechanics of the class fulfill that promise enough but but aren't it's not like uh you know it doesn't shine like the Paladin does where it's like everything fits together so great and there's so many ways you can make a broken build with it you know but maybe not everything needs to shine like the Paladin does uh so yeah that that's uh that's sort of where I'm at with it um I've played a lot of Barbarians I've played them across all tiers of play I've played 20 Level barbarians other tier four barbarians several barbarians like I've played into the you know High tier two you know good solid double-digit uh levels of DnD um and and I find myself I keep coming back to the conceptual well like I'm not done with the class there's still uh something there there's still like you know an interesting character that I want to play a long time and see how they develop through the course of play um and and so I've this is one of the classes that find me that I've had a lot of experience with and have tried a lot of different things with um and uh and yeah so uh let's talk about it some more look I answer some questions and I'll go through sort of my assessment of the core features and my one sentence uh take on each of the subclasses excuse me all right so here we go a western man says I've always felt barbarians are systematically Typecast as a big dumb outdoorsy brute which I feel limits them what do you think could change to make them less Typecast I think re-flavoring Fury in many ways or rage in this case um rage in in many ways fixes a lot of things about the Barbarian that both like narratively from a Fluff sense and from a crunch sense there's things going on that like hinging everything on this person gets really angry and beats people up it's just like it it's limiting it paints us into a corner it's like I want to make sure that archetype of like yeah they get really mad you would not like them when they're mad and you know we just point them at the monsters and don't really talk about you know why they get so mad and violent all the time because that's not the kind of game we're playing you know unless it's for Laughs afterwards or something um and I think if you just reframe it as like combat Focus you know this is someone that for whatever reason uh divinely inspired instinctual just sort of like an alter ego or something takes over or a protective Spirit or something you can make it really Supernatural but like in a tense situation in a high stakes situation where lives are on the line This ability takes over and allows them to perform these superhuman things to fight at these levels when they hit it's harder they're able to take more punishment and it could be fueled by Rage of some kind whether like divinely inspired and taken upon like the players handbook suggests like you visit the animal spirits and like they kind of take over when your tone Warrior ranges right like that's part of where that power comes from I don't know if anybody's ever played it that way that's what the player's handbook suggests um whether it's like the Berserker where it's just like the bloodlust of combat the thrill of it the adrenaline rush just like drowns out everything you have tunnel vision um so yeah I think that there's a lot of different ways to re-flavor rage and that that really I think is where where we ought to start for both the addressing some of the narrative and mechanical uh shortcomings of the class um yeah like you know the big dumb outdoorsy Brew that's fun you know I I have a barbarian like that uh they they get they're cursed by chaos to travel the planes endlessly and I use them for one shots and you know every time it's a different world different place what's happening to me uh kind of thing and yeah it's fun to play on that uh that archetype and I'm it's there for those people who they want to be with their friends they're happy to roll a D20 every now and then when it when it comes up at 20 it's really exciting that it does way more than than it does other times or for other players and that's fine for them they need a class like that to play and that class needs to be able to contribute in combat and it's all right that it kind of you know has this Typecast to it as long as it's not just the Typecast yeah that's my very Wishy answer I guess a little Nemo do you like how barbarians lose their rage when they don't attack or take damage or would you like to see that rework in the next player's handbook it's I'm glad you asked because like this is putting my hotfix for the Barbarian uh front and center I I do not like the end conditions for rage I think they they basically Force Barbarian players to focus on one thing only to the exclusion of others right the attack find the nearest enemy and attack or be attacked put yourself in a position to be attacked and like as a player I don't like the I'm gonna damage myself to maintain my rage I will find some way to like work with the DM to be like I'm running towards the enemy or I'm you know I'll bite my shield or something like that you know um but as a barbarian player I can think of all kinds of things I would do when I have advantage on strength checks uh while raging that don't involve attacking you know they might involve destroying the terrain in some kind to create hazards obstacles you know all kinds of things can I topple this tree on the Goblins can I just run at it hit it as hard as I can and then just shoulder bash it until it falls you know those sorts of things that are outside of the box and require the DM to improvise a ruling you know they don't want to I don't want to you know as a DM they don't want to encourage them something that's going to be so good it's always what you do but you also don't want to stifle your player creativity and the same dilemmas called shots and to me I think like even all that on the table if barbarians could just like were capable of doing things other than attacking and not losing their rage I think that would be fine I think if the end conditions were something like when there's no more enemies in sight you know when weapons are sheathed you know that kind of thing when combat is over I know that's a vague thing and d d doesn't really have a rule for when combat ends other than there's no more monsters to attack um but but maybe that's okay you know I think they can spend a round or two not attacking and still keep that rage going that fighting Spirit going um and and it to me it fixes so many things going on with the Barbarian um that uh that I find frustrate me as a player uh if it's just like yeah it'd be nice that I didn't have to spend around worrying about this uh that it just you know eventually it won't you get high enough levels it just you know it ends and then you could just start it right back up again at the 20th level you're literally 20 Level Zealot is like uh pretty Unstoppable it's pretty fun but uh you know not everybody plays tweet level um so yeah I think uh go ahead and get into some of the uh features of the class um before we get to too much because as these two questions suggest like I don't think there's much that needs to change about the Barbarian to make it more satisfying uh you know a tweak on what's already there I think it's one of the better designed classes of 5e right there's a lot of roles you can fulfill uh in a uh in a party you'll be main tank you'll be strong damage output you'd be Party Support a wolf bear totem uh Warrior you know where you're granting advantage to all the meleeers within five feet of you and then all the enemies are encouraged to attack you as well is like a strong melee support even if they didn't choose the most powerful options from totem Warrior the ones that are going to make them the most survivable so I I think there's a lot of different ways you can play a barbarian and and it and yet it has this very simple very effective core mechanic that the entire class is built around and and it's the combination of Rage unarmored defense Reckless attack and eventually extra attack that kind of supplements that and everything else everything else in the the core class everything else in the the subclasses supports or enhances one of those core features and those core features encourage the player to rage as early as often and as frequently as you can to head towards the nearest enemy and attack them as quickly as you can you know all of the features of the class are designed for this sole purpose and they do Barbarian does it very well I don't think you're going to hit the hardest the most consistently I think that goes to Fighters I think paladins have spikier damage and it's more you know under their control when it happens but you know when a barbarian crits it means something you know it's satisfying to roll all those extra dice even the mat even though the math is like it's not that much extra you know it's a paper tiger ability it's still fun you know it's still satisfying to have a big fist full of dice when you create you know paladins know that Rogues know that so I think the class is very strong it does what it needs to do it fulfills a niche it fulfills a player base and a play style which is what a strong class will do one that's well designed will do and it's okay that it's like it doesn't have a lot of abilities and and things to do outside of that it doesn't need that much extra I think and the core features really really do make it a strong class so going through all the features of the of the Barbarian you know the hit dice the proficiencies all of that it's it's about what you expect to see the real weakness here is you know with only two skill proficiency choices from the class you're really like if it's not Athletics and perception or Athletics and stealth or something you know you're really hindering yourself those are really sort of the the necessary skill proficiencies for uh for barbarian to have um especially like perception because you're gonna be rolling you know advantage on initiative eventually you know you're less likely to be surprised so having a high perception yeah maybe it's not as necessary still your Warrior types Warrior types with low perceptions always make me wince because it's like are you going to keep getting ambushed and still be aware anyway um so like an extra proficiency would be nice here that'd be great or some kind of tool proficiency maybe to enhance that backstory of like you know they're they live in the wilderness you know they don't live in cities and the like they have to make what they need to take it from the wild that kind of thing but then we get right into it right rage is the central feature of this class you know having a small but consistent and damage boost is good it'd be great if it was higher you know it would be great if the damage boost was just a little better but you know it's all right I prefer a consistent this adds to every attack as opposed to the more inconsistent like oh every now and then it's it's much bigger so um but rage is very satisfying to use it feels meaningful you always want to have it like as a barbarian if you're fighting without rage it feels like you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back you're like I'm just a low rent fighter a fighter without the heavy armor and the fighting style and all the Feats no the rage is really where it's at for the Barbarian and it's very satisfying to use I I really it really scratches that itch and every now and then you feel like I wish I had more uses per day you know but I find that like most of the campaigns I play in I have enough rages for the important fights and for the unimportant fights it's okay to fight like one hand type by your back because it makes it more fun you know it's like oh it's actually kind of a bit of a challenge here and so you know that it's to me what's really interesting with the 5e take is the separation of rage and Reckless attack and in Prior editions of DnD the Barbarian has these are one and the same and they're like entering a rage means that you kind of seed control of your character to this you know algorithm of fighting and the fact that you have two choices in combat win to rage is this combat worth it when should I rage how often should I rage I've been in fights where I've run out of Rage either because I was knocked incapacitated where there were no enemies to attack or or hurt me you know uh my movement um and uh yeah I had to use a second one or make the choice to but then the second the second decision point for the Barbarian The Reckless attack um and we'll get we'll get done Army defense in a second but uh The Reckless attack is is one that's like every every time it's your turn and it's your first attack this is a choice you have to make and to me it's like yeah having advantage on demand is is powerful right it's it's really a reason it's one of the core features here but it's also one of those like okay am I do I want to get lit up this turn you know and there have been moments where it's like I'm surrounded by a lot of low level enemies you know and I've got a low AC because I'm a barbarian and I you know I'm not sure that I want them to have advantage to attack me even with resistance I'm not sure I want to take that many attacks at half damage so no you won't have advantage to hit me and you'll just have to get my 16 AC the old-fashioned way you know and and I'll just make my attack without it and to me like it's it's when players just have autopilot rage Reckless attack every time uh and then their HP just gets chewed through that you start to see sort of frustration or why can't I do anything else and to me you got to be strategic about these things and Reckless attack followed by what weapon you use are you know some of the key things you're making these decisions every round every time it's your turn up you're uh you're still making this choice and that's what I thought mind is engaging about the Barbarian and then the other part of the the core feature here is unarmored defense which is very hard to make work like you really got to sink points into decks and you know kind of something like a combined modifier of plus seven to be better than just the base best medium armor you could get you know and then if you really you know you could I guess sync a feat into immediate armor medium armor Mastery or moderately armored I forget which one that lets you have a higher decks but you know that's not to me that's not worth it just magic armor magic half plate that's fine use a shield sometimes you know and and you know occasionally you get this benefit from uh from unarmored defense but the only time I personally use it is with my level 20 uh I got to roll these stats and arrange them how I like kind of a character that has the decks and con to uh to make it work and and even then they they don't they don't have the AC I'd like them to have you know they don't have a fighter or paladins AC or blade singers they see you know um but these I think all of these are the core feature here and then extra attack extra attack is just icing on the cake it's your combat class it's your you know it's your extra hit as it worm um everything else fast movement feral instincts those are about getting you into the fight sooner getting you toward getting you to the enemy uh sooner making sure that you get to go before you know others so that you can position yourself to be in the hot spot that kind of thing and then the others like persistent rage and Relentless is just those are there to keep you in the fight longer so that you you know when you inevitably get brought to zero HP maybe not this time maybe this is not the blow that strikes you down you know and as a as a barbarian you will be at zero HP you are going to take hits and spend a lot of time lying in the dirt um most of the barbarians I've played the fights end with my character unconscious and making death saves while someone tries to rush towards them and that you know that's just the kind of class it is high risk High reward uh you know they face their challenges head on with uh brute determination and and sheer uh physical prowess and the the mechanics match the fluff and it's it's a great experience um but it is it's not uh it's not the same as like a wizard or a or a sorcerer you know a cleric or something like that using all your spells um and yeah brutal critical is one of those where it's like yeah it's satisfying but I find that even with Reckless attack you're not creating that often enough for it to come up that much and sometimes it'll never come up and there's sometimes when it comes up and it's like they all roll real low and it's okay that was that's great thanks d12s I also don't really like uh features that encourage you to use one thing and this is one of those features where it's like oh yeah you really are incentivized by the system to use a great ax because it has the greatest single weapon die size and to me I see as one of the strengths of the Barbarian is that they are not tied to any one weapon right like all the other Marshall classes have a fighting style that encourage them to stick with like one weapon or one weapon type and and really stay there you know if you're sword and bored you you might pick up a battle ax or something but you know you're not going to start suddenly swinging a mall and what I like about the Barbarian is it's like yeah any weapon any martial weapon any simple weapon doesn't matter I get my rage bonus if I hit you with it it's Gonna Hurt um if I quit with it it's gonna hurt and you know I like to play martial characters with like goals and objectives for myself that are beyond what the DM sets or or what's going on just things that I do that are that make the game more fun for me and one of those things is like every session I use a different weapon I find an excuse a reason I want to get rid of the old one I had get a new one yep sometimes I am a Berserker Barbarian dual wielding daggers you know or you're not switch doorway links you don't get the extra bonus attack which I found out the first time I tried to do that but you know you have a dagger nonetheless that you go through a bunch of guards with uh or you know the next time it's a spear and then you know later on you're hurling javelins and and throwing axes and the like and maybe another time it's a long sword and then you go a great sword great sword or great ax or a mall you know glaive but you have that freedom you know um so that's one of the strengths of the class and you know don't don't listen to the uh to all the online guys you can use whatever weapon you want it's fine the averages work out to be very small you know over the long term it'll be all right you know you'll have a good time um so yeah I think um that's sort of my take on on the class as a whole I think all of the the things that enhance the core features of the Barbarian work well they're nothing to write home about indomitable strength is like level 18 though okay thanks I guess I'll use this every now and then um Primal Champion I find a very satisfying Capstone when you get to level 20 and you're just like yep plus four to strength and con with 24 strength it's it is very satisfying too to know that your character by the rules is like superhuman they're more than than mortal now that's really neat I like that um both the story of it and the mechanics excuse me um but yeah it's the 20th level and everybody gets there it is worth I think planning for if you know you're going to get to 20th level but you know most groups in most campaigns even if they aim for it you know they might not get there so yeah I think the issues though and little uh littler Nemo brought this up earlier like you know how the barbarians lose their rage when they don't attack or take damage which guy gets to the heart of some of the criticisms I see um about the Barbarian and chiefly that they have so little to do outside of their rage and like rage Reckless attack find the enemy attack repeat attack until one of us is a zero HP and that that is a recipe for a board player at some point like you have to do more than the same thing every time uh and I think that I think repetition in combat is fine I think it's fine that warlocks spam Eldritch blast I think it's fine that Marshall characters just make weapon attacks but even though that might be what they choose to do most of the time that ought not to be the only thing available for them to do and the way that the rage conditions work How It Ends and the like really does tell the Barbarian player listen if you're not attacking grappling shoving uh throwing a weapon get putting yourself In Harm's Way during a fight then you're out of luck no you don't not no interacting with the environment please no pausing to take a drink from a Potion No rushing to help an ally you know and so it kind of makes the the way that you can support your other teammates how you're able to help them more limited although the subclasses really do make up for that ancestral Guardian you know is a strong party support subclass for for a barbarian like but not all of them work that way there's a lot of Barbarian subclasses that you really don't want the party around you because it might actively harm them even if only a little bit so I think like how how the rage is framed how The Narrative of the rage is framed and therefore the mechanics are shaped are really important and whatever comes next for d d is a real opportunity for them to not throw it out keep this make sure that the classic Barbarian the the shirtless wandering outdoorsy brute still has a place in the class but that that's not the dominant archetype it's not a you know the one that the rules necessarily encourage and I think reframing what rage is and how it ends and perfectly fine to say can you see enemies then you're been you're still gonna be you know there's still someone to work out your anger issues on you know those poor bug bears that poor audio you know go find a troll you know go work out your anger issues on that troll Barbarian you know they just regrow their limbs it's fine uh you know I think that's that's where a lot of the issues could be addressed because like d d already has a system for doing things outside of combat it's called ability scores and it's called ability checks and if anything the Barbarian just needs a couple more proficiencies which the optional rules and Tasha's provide and that's fine you get a couple extra you know pick a background or race option that gives you more skill proficiencies and that helps talk to your DM and say hey I I find this one little aspect of the class very limiting preventing me from getting the most enjoyment I would get out of it makes me want to play a different class you know regret choosing this one if it wasn't there I would love it I can't imagine so many DMS who wouldn't try to work with you to find a solution for that so yeah to me they're minor tweaks that really fix the Barbarian because there's a a legitimate argument about character abilities and the martial characters versus casters and the ability to affect and change the game to alter the course of events to to have when it's your turn it matters and things change the battlefield changes you know that it was significant everybody Ood and odd that's a real uh debate but um I think it's okay that there are classes that don't have like class buttons to push ability buttons to push and that really what they do is they kind of do one or two things really well and you know just don't force them to only do those one or two things really well just you know when they do them it's great it's awesome we point our Barbarian at the enemies and that's just they're fine it's you know it's a couple rounds in we need a Healer to just go top them off make sure they're all right you know but other than that they're good to go they're really you know doing what they're supposed to do which is killing monsters fighting monsters but you know if they need to interact with the environment help out uh you know whatever for a round or two it's not going to mean that when they get back to the fight that you know they've got to like spend a whole other resource or whatever you know I don't know to me that's that really is the biggest uh issue with the Barbarian um there's a little bit about their their survivability and their resilience because you have such a low AC compared to other melee classes you're gonna get hit um and you know not everybody wants to be a barbarian that uses a shield although you know it's play viable battle ax long sword Warhammer those are all great weapons for barbarians you know and let's do AC increase your survivability but I'm wanting something from a barbarian especially like in the tier three or tier four that's like let's really reinforce the idea that they are Relentless that they are enduring and like there's you know Champions get a get a regeneration ability uh when they're below half hit points uh you know I don't want to take too much from Champions because you know they don't they don't have too much going on as is you know as satisfying as they are to play you don't want to raid their uh their stick but something like that some kind of self-heal some kind of way to you know boost yourself uh when you're when you're nearing uh bottoming out in your uh hit points so that you don't like feel the need or the party doesn't feel to me to like have a A Healer Mind you in a fight that the cleric or whoever can go to there you go do something else for a round or two and uh you know it's not worry that uh that their Barbarian is going to collapse and the monsters are going to flood in on an unexpected flank or something so I think those are really minor doesn't have to be too much um and certainly doesn't need to be that the Barbarian you know can completely operate solo without the Assistance or support from any other party members but a little bit more look just nudges in these directions I think would make for a more satisfying Barbarian play experience um so yeah I mean I don't know like I feel like that's a really that's my that's my take you know and here we are sitting at five after the bottom of the hour we got plenty of time for questions uh so I want to know what you guys are thinking about in terms of Barbarians where your heads are what your play experiences are and like so yeah here we go uh Dominic asks what are some expectations for rage and spell casting in one of my sessions a player used an adrenaline syringe on a big bang evil guy caster and effectively ruined his spell casting ability thoughts I I mean I I to me this is a it's like a relic of the barbarian's origin in first edition where it's like barbarians can't even use magic items they won't Adventure in parties with a wizard you know like they are anti-magic they they are they get XP for breaking magic items and destroying them right so uh it really is a anti-magically is something that's that's kind of baked into the Barbarian I think and and the the incompatibility of rage and spell casting I think is just one of those things where mechanically you don't want you don't want to have a spellcaster that's got all the benefits of rage and they're firing off spells and they've got like a defensive spell going on that makes them harder to hit or something like that like I think if a the party wizard wants to do that for the you know the Barbarian themselves and that's just the party working together but having it be you know both of those things in one character is just it feels like too much you know somebody showed up with a custom thing that was like we get damage resistance and boosts to attack and you can cast spells like I don't know like what you know D4 hit dice you know what's going on how did you uh make up for those uh those abilities um so yeah but narratively it makes sense right they're so just beside themselves what does the PHP say unquenchable Fury Unthinkable Fury uh even so it makes sense that spell casting isn't something they could do if spell casting is a purely intellectual activity which we know in Dungeons and Dragons it isn't and so that's where we can do a problem is that there's all kinds of spell casting going on in d d that isn't like a cognitive intellectual ability that might very well be fueled by powerful emotions you know and and so I think that there is a space for an Eldritch knight style spellcaster Barbarian um to me the wild Mage or the wild magic Barbarian doesn't really scratch that itch and I do not care for random character abilities uh you know like it's one thing when it's like wild magic for Sorcerers like you have your class abilities and also this thing that happens every now and then you know five percent of the time when you cast a uh you know a leveled spell um but for the Barbarian where it's like no this is a core feature of your class this is a benefit you get every time you rage it's random and may or may not be appropriate for the situation things like that I no thanks a rage Mage I think there's a place in d d for a rage Mage I think a very limited spell selection focused on like buffing yourself boosting yourself you know like a barbarian that can enlarge themselves haste themselves you know those sorts of spells transmutations and obserations uh I think are good uh picks um yeah something like that uh to uh I kind of go against with the Eldritch Knight gets I bet um yeah I really like that I think if you're re-flavoring it and imagining all different kinds of spell casting then there is a spell casting that's compatible with being uncontrollably angry um and it might be that those spells you know are more destructive in nature that that accessing that magic and raging at the same time like costs a hit die or something like it's it's got a steep uh penalty uh maybe not as steep as the Berserkers exhaustion which you know one or two levels are manageable of but uh you know that that extra attack is costly if it is uh very satisfying to use and chew through a bunch of uh monsters um so yeah I think um I think that's kind of where we're at like it it has to cause something else and there has to be an additional cost to it because these are two pretty strong features like rage is a is something that a lot of classes dip into Barbarian for um combining it with spell casting would be uh I think too much it would cross the line over the line come on let's find a way to rein it in a little so we can play with the idea all right Jeremy asks with the changes to high-level monsters dealing Force damage rather than physical damage do you think the resistance is from Rage we'll get an update as well or will barbs take a Nerf here and my gut instinct says they're taking the Nerf that that there's something about about the way that they're doing the monster damage that feels more like it's aimed at monsters fighting monsters and that barbarians are just sort of collateral damage from it like oh oops sorry but this was about monsters being like werewolves being able to fight each other or something like that or angels and and demons or something I don't know uh honestly why they made that change I know like I understand the reasons they gave but I don't understand why those were compelling reasons to make this change that I didn't see anyone calling for so I I'm I don't know it's uh I hope I hope barbarians get something I am not expecting barbarians to get something I'm expecting them to just take the L on this one so yeah there we go it's the world we live in with DND when we got monsters dealing Force damage which is magical in nature uh with their physical attacks yeah that's sometimes that's how it goes all right uh Barb is hands down the beefiest boy in d d but can come across as a boring meat stick that just smacks do you think giving barge com car do you think giving carbs bar bat maneuvers do you think giving barbs combat Maneuvers would be too much uh or giving all Marshals I am not I am one of those that does not favor giving Marshall's uh combat movers across the board because of the complexity issue I think that combat Maneuvers are great for d d but they are an opt-in uh kind of deal and then that lets those classes or those subclasses or whatever um you know have that little thing for themselves like there might be a one class that all of its subclasses and the like get combat maneuvers of some type maybe that class is fighter and Barbarian Remains the the more simple straightforward class but to me like what I want from a barbarian and in this sense is number one ways to use my rage outside of combat if I have an ability that's like I can spin a rage and all day all day right eight hours uh you know I got a climb speed I have a Boost to that climb speed and I can carry more uh you know I know a lot of Wilderness Travel and the like takes place at the speed of narrative and plot but even in a game like that I I as a barbarian player might consider it worth it to spend the rage to have the narrative established that my character is way ahead of the pack they're carrying more they're helping people up you know and and it might be worth it for me to spin that rage well the the fluff in the phb brings up superhuman I think at least once if not more than one time and I want to be able to do more things that push me on the Mortal limits with that rage and if it needs to be a more you know like you get more of them because you have more uses for them primary uses in combat you always want to have a handful remaining for combat but outside of combat when it comes to like excuse me traversing Terrain or exploration style challenges and the like like you can spend a rage for for other ways to push yourself beyond your limits for other ways to show how you know this this fuel that's within you this anger this rage this Focus whatever you want to call it manifests as physical prowess excuse me so yeah I that's what I want out of options for the Barbarian and to me combat Maneuvers are about training practice and the like and and you know I could see you know maybe down the line Barbarian is getting something like that and late tier two tier three to reflect uh just their experience and you know other things they've seen and combats that they've had but I like comment movers to be the the preview of of the fighter whose whole deal is expertise but with weapons you know so yeah what I want out of the D Barbarian is more beefy boy more more like yeah I swam that ocean but yeah I was wearing armor you know what of it yeah that sort of thing um I'll topple that tree I'll I'll climb that you know impossibly tall mountain you need me to go in that like I'll walk across that lava that's fine you know it like it's okay that it's ridiculous it's okay that it's supernatural and superhuman it's Dungeons and Dragons we've got people punching dragons to death we've got magic We've Got Elves and dwarves and all kinds of things like it's grounded in our understanding of reality otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand it but there's all kinds of things going on that that transcend uh the our mortal material world uh because it takes place in our imagination so we can imagine someone who is like somehow able to push past their limits uh and they didn't do it because they spent a lot of time in a monastery so that's what I think nothing to see here all right moving on awesome how do you maintain uh out of combat value for barbarian players as the game progresses uh so for me I as a dungeon master I just make sure that I am open to whatever it is the Players propose of how they want to interact with the world I don't dictate that certain classes or certain whatever are the face of the party for instance you know um I I don't you know say that like all right when the road goes off sneaking you know yeah they're alone like if there's a barbarian in the party that's got it that invested some Jacks and takes off their armor and still has a decent AC and is like yeah I can I've got Proficiency in stealth I'll come hang you might need backup then they're there like the the spotlight's on the Rogue right like this is their thing this is a beanie or you know whatever you know something they're doing for the local guild to uh you know as a favor or something but the barbarian's there because they're a supporting character they're they're an assist as a player I love being a particular character I I like being the one where it's like yeah this is someone else's Spotlight but I'm here if they need something I'm here you know if if there's trouble or something like that so that they're not you know on their own as it were but you know D D's a team game uh and so any any excuse to pair up PCS I like to take um but really I would encourage it by talking to that player are they satisfied do they feel hemmed in is there something about the experience that they would like improve if it seems like they're unhappy playing a barbarian if there's a lot of like oh this again I guess I'll Attack some more because there's a lot of that now take mine are you having fun is this the class for you maybe multi-class is in order maybe a whole new character maybe remaking this this character and we can find a way to make it work you know in game so it's not jarring and weird you know there was a visit of Double Dimension and then something you know it's a mirror verse version of them that comes out just different classes everything's the same it's cool you know I don't know there's a lot of different ways you can roll with it um but it's to me a lot of it is about what I'm as a dungeon master but I'm open towards from what a barbarian player wants to do and if it seems as though they are frustrated being more proactive because I understand that Barbarian class lends itself to this feeling because of the mechanics and the like as a player I just don't care who any of that is I will do whatever I want to do because it's DND that's the whole point of playing like it doesn't get no matter what it says my character sheet if I say it it I I can attempt it that's what dice are for um and so I just have an attitude of like I am not hemmed in by what my character sheet says and I that way with every uh class I play I find it very freeing and and quite satisfying way to play even if it does sometimes come across as I don't have a strong attachment to the game or or attachment to my characters I am very engaged uh and loving it uh I'm just not like tied to any one expectation uh or or you know thinking you know it's like I gotta do this one way I mean my very first d d character I played I was a cleric and I didn't play I didn't prepare enough healing spells the party which is consistently get angry at me I was like hey I got all these other spells flame strike strength you know I can do more than just heal um so to me it's a lot a lot of it is an attitude if I'm a DM I want to encourage that attitude if I'm a player I want to hope it spreads to other players um because I find the game is just more fun that way um so yeah uh so we've got a follow-up question from Wesley Mann let's see uh there's so many interesting ideas for what rage could be flavored as battle Focus the special suit magical effects of spirits uh reflavings re flavoring is good for me but uh not for new people sure right new people they want they're not sure where the boundaries are what's uh what's permissible what's not what's possible you know I think that having a strong identity as presented in the player's handbook is important but the the suggestion that's in there now that like the rage comes from different places for different reasons it's like a sentence and I would much rather see something like a random table you know the with exactly those sorts of uh suggestions that you have ideally tied to whatever subclass options that they've got you know like take the totem Warrior the the fluff embedded in the totem Warriors that you're you know someone who lives you know perhaps a nomadic lifestyle or something you are close to Nature close to animals you know you've sought out a spirit a totem spirit of one of these creatures you know this is the be this is the cosmic being that watches over all bears all Eagles you know and DNA these are known as animal Lords uh and um you've made a pact with them a bond with them somehow and you know maybe they take you over maybe they possess you maybe it's like a Mark that they've left on you or a totem that they've given you xanathars guide has a lot of things like this that are helpful for reskinning and rethinking about characters uh you know where their powers come from where their abilities come from and I just wish that that was in the player's handbook I wish that all of the the fluff stuff all the the things about how you flavor and think about and what it means for your character and how it World builds like that's important stuff right that is just as important as it does x amount of damage and here's the DC and everything like how you imagine your character in the world and how the DM sets up the world so that you can imagine it Bedrock of the game The Mechanics exist to support all that so that it's not front and center in the player's handbook I think is a shame because it would help new new players see how they could re-flavor things see how they could imagine different possibilities and not feel hemmed in by one thing even though it is an option they could pick so yeah let's see we're going uh see uh from Walter bully I like this question is Barbarian rage a magical ability by default this is I mean this is one of those things we gotta we're talking pure narrative here at the start yes yeah I yes if you're talking fluff it is absolutely some kind of Supernatural or magical ability it allows uh the Barbarian to do things that are you know you know impossible if we're thinking of this fantasy world is having most behaving mostly the way our world works but with these other things added on because magic you know so it's like that they can take this much punishment that they are able to do these things that they are able to like conjure fire you know whenever they enter a rage or especially when you get into the subclasses it's hard not to see the rage as a magical ability like when you enter a rage you conjure ghosts you know really really yeah at a ancestral Guardian Barbarian where the they weren't his ancestors they were the people he's killed that he's been he'd been cursed uh by a hag and the the spirits of the people that that he'd killed as like a you know a thug for hire for some Thieves Guild followed him around and were angry and he could like control them and direct them and like send them at other people but like at night they just Hector him and berate him and you know all the time and uh you know I thought that was cool I want to keep playing that character I and so to me it was like the I think fourth edition was really the addition of D where they were like yeah barbarians are magical you know the the idea that they're all Conan analogues of some stripe you know is ridiculous um they I think that archetype ought to be encompassed in it but cognac could just as easily be a ranger or a fighter or a rogue or a multi-class combination of them or whatever you know uh too powerful of an idea to be contained in a one class um and so barbarians I think ought to embrace the fact that Dungeons and Dragons World is saturated in Magic they have a special type of magic that's accessed when they have a very strong emotion when fighting starts you know uh that's um yeah I think it is whether it's suppressed by an anti-magic field or you can dispel it or other things no it's not a spell you can't dispel it um is it it suppressed an anti-magic field no I don't think so not everything that's magical uh is and I think it it's fine that this stays in the narrative fluff side you know uh the mechanics obviously suggest it's magical uh but yeah that's a good question because this is like one of those things with the Marshall Catholic Marshall Caster divide that comes up in that there's a lot of players who they want their martial classes to be based purely on you know physical prowess and expertise that magic is not in the mix and I I used to be that used to be my perspective really used to be like well okay casters have spells they've got magic and that's what's going for them that's why they're able to break the limits in that way and you know Marshall characters they've got they've got swords they've got weapons they know how to fight they've got skills like there's a place for them thematically if not in the rules uh just you know thinking from like Third Edition perspective but then starting with like the Tomo battle the book of nine swords it was one of those like okay wait there's magical overdunches dragons you know if if I can imagine that the creation of a magic item is a product of skill and Magic but skill is very important to it then I can imagine a type of magic that Marshall prowess is key but it is Magic you are going through the motions you're doing the thing and like think of like martial arts caught us or other types of formalized martial arts and and the like like we're starting to get into something that in my mind looks a lot like spell casting in Dungeons and Dragons with its somatic components with movements right and it's just really blurring the lines between are the movements of fighting a somatic component for a spell that's basically a type of martial Magic and if that's the case then you know we've already have spell casters that are born knowing their spells they're born knowing how to cast their spells innately intuitively they don't need training they don't need to unlock anything they just like yeah I Can Do Magic because I can if I just feel my way through it then isn't there also space for someone who's like can fight and and has fueled by some Supernatural power and and might be considered magical just simply because of this thing inside themselves they're able to access they can set the world on fire through their anger alone they can summon storms they can summon the spirits of the Dead whether they're hostile or friendly that kind of thing they can it's really easy to bring them back from the dead it's like super they want to come back they have a soul filled with life that's ready to return hard to kill him easy to bring him back those all sound like magical characters to me and I that's that's what that's really what I like about uh the Barbarian you have all that it can have a Berserker who just like loves fighting and just the bloodlust takes over and you can't charm them you can't frighten them they're gonna be exhausted when it's over but they're also going to be covered in blood and the enemies are gonna be dead um all of those things are in uh in the Barbarian and that's that's why I love them that's why they're my favorite uh one of my favorite classes yeah so one more here I think that we'll get through that I think is really uh pertinent but uh here we go uh looks like uh Levy asks uh what kinds of things would you suggest to help make the Barbarian fighter feel different right now Barbarian feels like a fighter subclass with how much they step on each other's toes I think there's a lot of significant overlap that's okay um like you know there's a case to be made for a certain kind of Barbarian just being a subclass of fighter and if you're only looking at Barbarian being a mundane Warrior who just you know whips themselves into a berserk Frenzy and and that's it like if your only concept of the Barbarian is the Berserker right or the battle rager uh then yeah that's it's hard to see why those wouldn't just be fighter classes but when you're you see that like yeah the Barbarian is actually a supernatural Warrior that that has some kind of power that manifests in what could be called magical effects that to me that is the difference the fighter doesn't have that and it's more than just like uh damage reduction to me when you add in the subclasses for barbarian when you add in the the things that they're able to do with their rage and the kinds of effects they're able to manifest when they enter this state and what that must mean for the world what that means for the character how that manifests how they acquire that knowledge All Those Questions the d d players and groups myself included not not casting fingers to anybody else this is my I'm describing my group just don't ask don't don't think about except maybe when you're hanging out afterwards you're like hey that's kind of a weird ability when you think about it or you occasionally would ask like okay well what does it look like when your character uses this ability what's really going on yeah this is so interesting yeah there's there's something here about this idea of this character in this moment doing this thing that I want to pause for a second and ask the player is this interesting to you too um and so for me like those are the things that make um the the two classes different and I think there's enough mechanical difference there uh to um you know justify it I kind of wish that barbarians had one more ASI you know uh like uh Rogues and Fighters do but yeah I can see that keeping that to those extra Asis or Feats or whatever they're going to be in one d d uh to just Rogues and Fighters is fine I'll I'll just have to look on jealously you know um but I I think just because there's overlap between Barbarian and fighter we shouldn't like say okay they yeah to be just subclasses together because you could say the same thing about Ranger and Barbarian barbarian's just a type of Ranger they're just an outdoor Warrior you know that's all they are because they do not have a ranger that's focused on like animal Instinct Primal Instinct tapping into the fury of the cornered animal kind of thing like is that does that not describe a ranger subclass to you um yeah but you know it's that there's overlap between the classes is a is a strength because it means there's lots of different ways to express the same character idea lots of different ways to approach it so that different play styles are accommodated and alike and and you know we're not we're not we shouldn't get rid of sorcerers and Wizards necessarily I do think we could get rid of warlocks and be just fine like I like warlocks I think they're fine but uh you know fun to play but I think we could also they'd never be in DND again and we'd be all right R.I.P warlord um so yeah that's what I think about the the similarities between uh Barbarian and the fighter uh if anything they just like I missed the brute they're in the UA that was uh I guess it got ditched I forget which one maybe Ravnica or uh Theros or something there's like a fighter subclass that was the brute uh it was that was channeling a lot of Barbarian energy um I missed that one I thought that was a very effective very simple subclass another good compliment to the champion a good alternative if you've played several Champions and want something different without having to have spells for your fighter uh anyway uh so yeah I uh more um the more Concepts DND serves the better I think so uh yeah very good very good lots of good questions uh probably have to do a big q a sometime soon that would be fun just to answer those but otherwise we're going to work through these classes uh I skipped artificer because uh yeah sort of uh one of the newer classes it doesn't look like it's going to be in uh whatever uh the next player's handbook is so on the one hand that's kind of disappointing it would have been nice to see artificial make core that would be cool uh but uh you know I can see why they wouldn't and uh you know just use the artificer as is from Tasha's and then you know it's backwards compatible so uh yeah but we get to uh bards next week and uh who knows where that will take us but uh yeah but also we'll probably have a one DND soon so it could have one of those Thursdays where we're encountering the new play test packet for the first time uh anyway so uh I appreciate you guys joining us uh this week appreciate the questions even though we weren't able to get to them all um again if you want to support the channel head on over to our patreon and check out uh one of those membership tiers and get the podcasts for your listening pleasure uh it's great to hang out and uh we'll see you again next week

Channel: Web DM

Views: 12,221

Keywords: dungeons and dragons, d&d, dungeons & dragons, dnd, 5e, web dm, webdm, jim davis, 5th edition, ttrpg, rpg, roleplaying game, tabletop, game master, dungeon master, prep, campaign, faction, session prep, how to play dungeons and dragons, dm, gm, dungeon, monsters, live, wotc, 6e dnd, player class, player options, forgotten realms, one d&d, playtest, reaction, expert, expert class, barbarian, fighter, rage

Id: xoMIB9L_27w

Length: 61min 42sec (3702 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 03 2022