Day at Night: Jonas Salk, developer of the polio vaccine

James Day public television pioneer and chairman of the CUNY TV Advisory Board passed away in April 2008 his legacy includes the series day at night which aired for 130 episodes beginning in 1973 the program features interviews with many of the great thinkers and achievers of the 20th century these 30-year old programs have been restored the interviews remain fresh and relevant today exploring issues that are still important to society showing them again as CUNY TVs tribute to Jim and his contributions to public television the name of Jonas Edwards Salk entered our live was startling and welcome sudden as nearly twenty years ago it was 1955 the National Foundation for infantile paralysis had just announced the results of a nationwide test of the newly developed soft rock scene it worked crippling polio could be prevented almost overnight dr. Salk rose from the obscurity of a medical research laboratory to the role of an internationally acclaimed hero his name a household word but the role of celebrity proved an uncomfortable fit for a man who cherished his hours in the laboratory and had more work to do in 1962 he founded the Salk Institute for Biological studies where a small group of senior scientists have been free to pursue independent study into the nature of the human organism some of dr. Salk stone work at the Institute has resulted in two small books for the layman published in the last several years man unfolding and the survival of the wisest dr. Salk medical science and your own work included has brought near miracles and in keeping more people alive and keeping them alive longer and in the process it's contributed to one of our most important problems today that is the problem of overpopulation of how this planet can sustain that kind of other population growth are we headed on an apocalyptic course requests what you just described is the result of our success yes and success not infrequently leads to other problems that have to be dealt with and this is an example of precisely that there are many who look at the curve of population growth and see only the kind of course you've described we mentioned whereas there is another way of looking at the problem hopefully yes more hopeful in the sense that Nature has had this experience before no Nature has a way of controlling and regulating so to speak in the normal course of events the growth the level of a population of any organism many species any variety in a given ecosystem man is rather new in this respect man has now reached the point at which we may say that he is living in a closed system meaning that there is a limit to the resources on the planet and he will there by be forced to accommodate himself and his numbers to those conditions but man is a thinking being is against the earlier forms of life you're talking about his own will he can make his own decisions yes it doesn't make a decision to do just what you've described well I think you have to does speak not of man and the sense of mankind but men as individuals and as groups there are some who will behave in a way that I think will prove to have been unwise and there are some who will behave in a way that I believe will have proved been proven to been wise therefore to ascribe to man generally the attributes so the behavior the characteristics of one or the other would be inappropriate we therefore must recognize I said there will be some who will not survive and there will be others who will contribute to the survival and evolution of mankind we are it's just not exactly the survival of the fittest and the fittest have survived up to this point it is my contention that now we must speak of the survival of the wisest I say which as you know is the type of book that it was responsible for it came out about a year ago and I and how would you describe the wisest in this context those who understand the processes of nature and understand the nature of the evolutionary process and take it into consideration in their relationships to others to themselves and to nature to the cosmos this is quite in contrast to what has been because man is always what nature has been the fight to overcome the forces of nature now you're saying that the wisest are those who what cooperate with yes those who will cooperate with nature and cooperate with the inevitabilities of the laws of nature this is the evolutionary process that exactly and when man recognizes and understands and feels the the force feels and appreciates how how the process of evolution works on him and in him he will then be able to handle himself more effectively as an instrument so to speak of nature in nature what I am trying to convey is the idea that man is very much a part of nature and cannot regard himself as a part from nature because he has done so and his thinking has not been very good when he comes to the conclusion or behaves as if he is not part of nature under those circumstances he will of necessity because of the nature of the process slip off in the apocalyptic fashion show recently and those who understand and have a sense of what we're speaking of will be those will contribute to the survival of the species in the future how old because how will we become wise I will be come into possession of the wisdom you speak of people like me lo it be when our feet are put to the fire and we're faced with the real disaster or will it be through education let me through intuition how all these ways and if it is in a person to be wise that he will learn in one way or another if on the other hand he is so constructed or so crippled or so distorted in his perceptions and his understanding then he will not he will respond inappropriately rather than appropriately he will not survive so to speak as the unwise man who doesn't come these perceptions then us and you might say well how do we become wisest you've asked a moment ago perhaps it would be better to think in terms of learning to behave as if we were wise because wisdom I see as an attribute not unlike other talents that in skills that need to be developed and there is something innate in those who have the characteristics and attributes that we associate with wisdom and this is not necessarily associated with education Ida wasn't no did not you must remember that there are individuals who exhibit wisdom who had had no formal education and wisdom is a word a concept that antedated formalism in the educational process now this does not mean that through education one cannot learn to behave as if one were wise and one cannot enhance one's wisdom so to speak through the experiences that this affords so that what you are I would say focusing upon is something that I regard as of crucial importance and of the greatest importance at this particular point in evolutionary time because I think that we are going through a phase change in which that which we have always regarded to be a value namely wisdom will now be a necessity and this it also suggests a lots of other changes to does it not indeed things that we placed high value upon today we may place lower value upon tomorrow indeed and that's the nature of the phase change I see us going through seen many evidences you do see evidence of it now oh yes yes for some years now this has been accumulating where that which was a value of positive value is now of negative value by the same token that which is a positive value now may have been a negative value before yeah now I have used as a way of explaining this idea the familiar s-shape growth curve which is this so-called sigmoid curve which we see in living systems in which organisms increase in number as is true of man they go through an exponential phase very rapid growth and then the population so you enter the population level at some higher level and we are at the moment of course yes of course because we are from the evidence we are in that exponential phase of growth now looking at the planet as a whole period of change yes as a period in which we are now is one a very rapid change associated with a rapid increase in population what kind of values excuse me what values do you see changing what do you see evidence of changes in the value system in young people for example is it especially the they are born into what I think of as a new epoch I refer to as epoch be is this thing for that a and they are influenced in the shape of their thinking and of their perceptions by the world in which they are and which they're born in the same way those who were born deeper into Navarre who was still alive were shaped and formed in a different set of circumstances there is no doubt that apart from the genetic differences amongst individuals there are influences that helped shape the orientation perceptions and values those born at each point in time it's self-evident that children are born into a period where television is commonplace would have had different experiences than those born previously those who we see evidences of this if we look at the different cultures on the face of the of the planet so that I need not press too firmly to bring evidence to bear that there is an enormous variety in time and space amongst individuals attributable in part of genetic considerations and in part to environmental influences circumstantial influences now we see occurring and on the planet as a whole and influenced by virtue of the rapidity with which we are all in communication with one another the shortness of distance of time the planet is literally becoming a single place rather than one that can be carved up reasonably and do territories losing interdependence that is what characterizes the the new world essentially and not a group of independent and a group of dependent nations shall we say but a group of independent nations that are interdependent this is one of the characteristics of the of the new epic which comes about as a result of the natural evolutionary process so that the problems with which we are confronted arise as a result of evolution and we will emerge through them what is the process oh by evolutionary means what is the process of evolution what are we headed toward what is the the growth or the movement I see evolution as not restricted to the idea that man has evolved from primates or from the a No nor do I see evolution restricted only to living things I see evolution from the beginning of the universe the beginning of the class must let us say as evidenced in part by the order that we see in the physical realm and in the chemical realm if you look at the table of elements the mental a table of elements you see the orderly arrangement according to atomic number and atomic weight this must have arisen as a result of an evolutionary process I can see how at one point in time and the course of physical chemical evolution life began and it's easy to see the signs and evidences of the evolutionary process up to the point where man appeared and there again they mutational event occurred so that man now is a living entity capable of perceiving himself as well as the universe around him is he Oh sometime visitor on this planet yes just as the planet itself is a sometime visitor in the cosmos the Sun was born several millions of millions of years ago and it is estimated that it is likely to cool and perhaps become extinct as a source of energy useful for the earth about five thousand million years from now or five billion years from now well we've just been discussing doctor swap seems to be far removed from what you've made your name in and developing the soft thing I want to carry you back if I may into epoch a and your own life and your own education and your own destiny which I got it was partially set by your mother who I'm told was intensely ambitious for her three youngsters yes together must have been spires you two go on to school and get the education you need did she want you to be a doctor no she didn't really that was the result it compromise in a sense she I think her ambition was for me to be a teacher so that I wouldn't not have too strenuous and difficult of life she was very overprotective my preference was law but we couldn't agree on that so medicine of the compromise no medicine was like it was my choice and at least I did not do what she wanted no I wanted but something else was it was your home home where learning was much revered your father was now was was in the garment industry yes no there was no tradition of learning other than perhaps the tradition of the Jewish heritage where of course learning was highly respected but my mother had been an immigrant and I was not able to read English very well as a matter of fact because she came to this country and they probably went to work in order to help support the family my father had not too much education up through elementary school and nevertheless my mother's desire was for her children to have as much education as possible and you were a very good student apparently you well I was and was not it was rather uneven there were some things that I was interested in more than others but I did high school in New York which was for outstanding exceptional students was high school a penny no longer exists that's right and then on to Columbia no I went to college at City College of course and then to NYU Medical School without the intention of practicing I gather never it always been interested in research as a career I knew that when I went into medicine that also was shaping things in accordance with the way I began to feel and in a sense beginning to be aware what I was interested in I began to develop a self-awareness that began to lead me I began to use there's a natural process or was it influenced by teachers and I think it was a natural process I think I observed and felt and chose often not knowing why I would say that the what we call intuition was strongly operative and it still is I become aware and think about things that come to mind so that I engaged in the process of rationalizing what are the perceptions that seem to come from no place in particular so you've depended heavily even as a scientist upon that intuition imagination that other aspect of your being that's not the the intellect mmm I have always used both as strongly as that possibly good so that are constantly challenging one with the other I don't see how else I could function and I believe that is what we must aspire to ultimately and when we speak of epic be as we did a while back and what it is that we should aspire to in the future perhaps it is the development of both aspects of the mind that we referred to as the develop other aspect the the intellect obviously is developed by by education but how is the imagination they the intuitive aspect developed by use yes by usin by not being inhibited being turned off by hypertrophy in the intellectual for example if we are aware and conscious of the existence of these two aspects of the mind and that each must be developed separately and then together then we are beginning to comprehend the nature of the dualism that man is the nature the dual dualistic structure of the universe and recognize that these two parts of mind playing together and I unlike the two eyes that allow you to see to have depth depth perception perception if you look through one eye only you do not see depth you see everything in one plane and I play with ideas such as these because I see the the the two lists of the oneness in a sense which were forced to recognize when you understand the nature or the processes of life I suspect that the creative process and man's and intelligence all are dependent upon the operation of these two realms after you had done five years or so of research and with flu vaccine number two Michigan he went to University of Pittsburgh to take on a task of typing they pull the old virus I didn't go there for that purpose when I got this someone provided me or offered me the opportunity to become so involved what you know what has later turned out to be of course the most significant event might not have seen at the moment to you to be that significant event you had no idea I supported that moment work might lead did you well I I suppose I think I must know who had that hope at any rate well it was obvious that this was the beginning of an evolutionary process certain things have to be known before you can know something else I was quite young and and polio was a problem that was clearly on solved it remained to be dealt with and what one does in research is to make a beginning without knowing necessarily how quickly or even where you will end but you must make that beginning the beginning must be made I call that commitment you figure self drawn to court by engaged and involved and that one thing leads to another I still am in that state of being and the state of becoming constantly in relation to us how did you feel that all day and in 19 what was at 1955 I know what was made that affects I guess that was the vaccine works was the feeling of achievement satisfaction or another beginning for yes well it was for me an Aida climax in the sense that I had already known not the results I heard about that for the first time that day doesn't believe what over a years testing wasn't yes but I knew that it had had to be that way or else we would have to say that immunization against the theory Oh which had been in use for many years didn't work and it was in conformity to a principle and what was necessary was to determine how to determine whether or not that principle was applicable of this particular system I my life changed very abruptly at that time he became a public figure yes I as Admiral said that evening I always remembered young man a great tragedy has just befallen you and I said what do you mean he said you've lost your anonymity I know was a handicap well more than that there have been many other aspects to that so-called success which for me had many disadvantages which I still AM overcoming you might say one of the byproducts of this is to be looked upon as a hero by the public but to be looked upon by certain scientific colleagues as if you perpetrated the crime of having become a hero and as if there's nothing you thought yes and that's not acceptable it evokes reactions which are quite understandable because it's not only in this field but it's in other fields as well consequently if one as I want to continue in my neck and my fieldwork and in other related fields I have that as a handicap so you've never been fully accepted by your own colleague that you have by the public for what he has is a marked discrepancy between these two populations you might say the Institute which was created later became almost an escape for you from the public demands that it not like has to go back to the laboratory where a sword I created it for that purpose now thinking that this would be well I wasn't all together conscious of the details I simply was drawn to a conception of what I thought was needed in this country for example so far as institutions are concerned I had the feeling in the mid 50s that institutions would have to evolve I then became involved in creating a new instrument you might say to serve man's needs to serve the purposes that a an Institute for Biological studies concerned as well with the moral and philosophical consequences actually you see we had just been through the Cataclysm in a way of the successes and the accomplishments of physicists now biologists were moving to the center of the stage as I have said it before I thought that an Institute doing this kind of work should contain within it the conscience of man and it was for this reason that I saw the need for creating an Institute for Biological studies that would be concerned not only with biology with medical questions but also would be humanistically oriented and this is still my hope and aspiration although not yet altogether fulfilled however I am expecting that in time because of the nature of the changes that are taking place in the human scene that this will in fact be realized let me ask you with only one half minute remaining a big question you've said that in effect be the attributes that will be most prized or be one of those that give the feelings of satisfaction fulfillment which in your life have given you the most satisfaction fulfillment everything that I've done I suppose it's all part of the same fabric part of the same tapestry if you will and I can't say that any one thing more than another because I cannot expect to have been more fortunate than I have been thank you very much

Channel: CUNY TV

Views: 29,844

Keywords: day at night james day cuny tv, Jonas Salk

Id: j0Lyn18HH6s

Length: 28min 52sec (1732 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 06 2011

Reddit Comments

[u/essen11]

Two things:

- What a great achievement that was amplified through not patenting his invention

- The comment section under it makes me sad. Antivaxers moaning.