David Brooks: 2019 National Book Festival

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>> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, wow. So, how many people here are from the Washington area? [ Cheering and Applause ] How many from outside of Washington? [Cheering] How many have never been to the book festival before? How many have been to all 19 of them? [Laughter] Wow, okay. Well, we're going to have a very interesting conversation today with one of the country's leading I'd say intellectuals, and columnists, and TV commentators, and authors. His new book is <i>The Second Mountain </i>. How many people have read this book yet? Okay, how many people are going to read it after this is over? Okay, all right. How many people are going to get an autographed copy from David Brooks today? Okay. So, David, thanks for doing this. So, let's go -- before we go into this book, <i>The Second Mountain</i> , which I've read, and I think it's a very good book. We'll go through it. I'd like to go through a little bit about your background. So, you grew up in New York? >> David Brooks: I grew up in the lower east side of New York. My parents were somewhat left wing. So, the story I tell about my childhood was when I was five, they took me -- this was in the late-'60s -- to a be in, where hippies would go just to be. And one of the things they did is they threw their -- they set a garbage can on fire and they threw their wallets into it to demonstrate how little they cared about money and material things. And I was five and I saw a five-dollar bill on fire in the garbage can, so I broke from the crowd, reached into the fire, grabbed the money and ran away [laughter]. And that was my first step over to the right. And then other significant event in my childhood was at age eight. I read a book called <i>Paddington the Bear </i>and decided at that moment I wanted to become a writer. And I've been writing pretty much every day since and it's been the center of my life. In high school I wanted to date a woman named Bernice and she didn't want to date me, she wanted to date some other guy. And I remember thinking, what is she thinking? I write way better than that guy [laughter]. And so, that was my value system. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, what did you parents do? Were they -- other than being hippies? >> David Brooks: Yeah, they would say they were 19'50s progressives. But my father was teaching at NYU and he was a scholar of Victorian literature and my mother was a scholar of Victorian history. There was sort of a Jewish tradition -- to the way you assimilated to America is you became really Anglophilic. The phrase was, think Yiddish, act British [laughter]. And so, what the Jews did is they gave all their kids names, super English names like Norman, Irving, Milton, Sidney, thinking no one would ever think they were Jewish. But within five years they were Jewish names, so it didn't work. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so your last name was -- is that a Jewish name, Brooks? >> David Brooks: Brooks was changed during World War I because my original name was Probst, which sounded too German. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so you did well in high school I presume? >> David Brooks: Wrong [laughter]. I -- I was a B minus student. I graduated in the lower half of my high school class. >> David M. Rubenstein: How'd you get into the University of Chicago? >> David Brooks: In those days, the University of Chicago admitted 70% of applicants. And I got into Chicago -- I went to Chicago because the admissions officers at Columbia, Wesley, and Brown decided I should go to the University of Chicago [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: You didn't get in? Okay. >> David Brooks: Didn't get in. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, you get to the University of Chicago, and what do you want to study? >> David Brooks: I really wanted to study political theory and Chicago -- in retrospect, Chicago was really the turning point for me because of the great culture of that place. The best saying about Chicago is it's a Baptist school [inaudible] as professors teach Jewish students St. Thomas Aquinas [laughter]. And so, I took the common core. So, I wrote 16 papers on theodicy's. I probably wrote 20 on Hobbs. And we had in those days, still the professors that were refugees from Germany, and they -- when they taught you these books, they taught you as if they were the keys to the kingdom. That you were going to discover how to live if you study these books well and read them seriously. There's a saying, if you burned with enthusiasm people will come from miles to watch you burn [laughter]. And these professors had that enthusiasm. And so, they really introduced us to the -- the great moral ecologies. They took -- taught us to take reading really seriously and then they taught us how to see, which seeing seems obvious, but if you live in Washington you're around your politics, you know seeing the world -- most of us see the world in a distorted way. And there's a quote from John Ruskin where he says, the older I get the more important -- the more I think the most essential thing in life is to see something and say what you saw clearly in a short passage. Millions can talk for those who can think, and millions can think for one who can see. And there's just some authors like Tolstoy, or Orwell, or C.S. Lewis who just see the world clearly, and I think they disciplined us to try to do that. >> David M. Rubenstein: How did you do at the University of Chicago? >> David Brooks: I did better there. There's a certain point where you learn to work. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. >> >> David Brooks: Like I learned to work. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, how did you decide what your career was going to be? Did you know you wanted to be a writer when you graduated? >> David Brooks: Yeah, I knew I wanted to become a writer and I sort of knew I wanted to be a popular writer. I didn't want to be an academic, because I'm not good at abstract thinking. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you didn't want to go into investment banking or private equity, higher callings then writing? >> David Brooks: That is a higher calling. But I -- I would have had to been able to do addition and multiplication as I understand. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, when you were an undergraduate you met William F. Buckley. How did that change your life? >> David Brooks: So, I was a school columnist for the school paper and Buckley came to campus, and I wrote a vicious parody of him for being a name-dropping blowhard [laughter]. It was like, while at Yale, Buckley formed two magazines, one called <i>The National Buckley </i>, one called <i>The Buckley Review </i>, which he merged to form <i>The Buckley Buckley </i>[laughter]. And so, it was a whole bunch of jokes about that. And he came to campus and he gave a speech to the student body. And at the end of it he said, David Brooks, if you're in the audience I want to give you a job. And that was the big break of my life. >> David M. Rubenstein: Did he give you a job? >> David Brooks: Sadly -- excuse me? >> David M. Rubenstein: He gave you a job? >> David Brooks: He said, I want to give you a job. And sadly, I was not in the audience [laughter]. So, I -- I was literally out -- I had been hired by PBS to interview -- to debate Milton Friedman on national TV. And you go on YouTube, and if you type in YouTube David Brooks, Milton Friedman you'll see a 21-year-old me with big Jew fro and these gigantic 19'80s glasses that were apparently on loan from the Mt. Palomar Lunar Observatory [laughter]. And basically, the show is -- I was then a socialist. I argue a point that I regurgitated from some textbook. He destroys it in about six words, and then the camera lingers on my face as I try to think of something to say. That was -- that was the show. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right. So, what did you do when you graduated? >> David Brooks: I worked as a bar tender for a year. Best job I ever had. And then I covered Chicago politics for something called <i>The City News Bureau </i>and <i>The Chicago</i> <i>Journal </i>. So that was Harold Washington, the first black mayor of Chicago had just come in and he was in what they called the Council Wars with a guy named Eddie Vrdolyak. >> David M. Rubenstein: Then did you get a job with Buckley eventually? >> David Brooks: So, I covered poverty on the south and west side and I -- I thought I was seeing a lot of bad social policy that had the unintended consequences of making poverty worse. And that made me a little more conservative. So, I called Buckley up and said, is the job still there? He said yes, so I flew to New York. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you moved to New York and you worked for <i>The National Review </i>? >> David Brooks: Yeah, and it was a total shock. You forget how Buckley was -- he led a lifestyle that was unimaginable. Like you're a kid covering crime in Chicago and then suddenly you're in this pied-à-terre on Park Avenue, and they put a finger bowl in front of you, and you're like, why is this soup so watery [laughter]? I mean it's like -- >> David M. Rubenstein: So, but had you been a conservative or how did you come to the<i> The National Review </i>? >> David Brooks: I think by that time -- I remember being happy when Thatcher won. But mostly, at Chicago they assigned me a book called <i>The</i> <i>Reflections on the Revolution in France </i>by Edmond Burke. And at the time, I hated it. I loathed that book. And here was a guy -- I wanted to have a revolution. I wanted to create new ideas for myself. And here was a guy says, distrust your reason. But Burke's conservatism is based on epistemological modesty. Epistemology is what we can know, and modesty is modesty. It's the -- the world is a really complicated place, be careful how you think you can change it. Do it gradually, incrementally, and as Burke says, as if you were operating on your own father. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. >> David Brooks: And so, what I saw in Chicago was social change done badly, and it seemed to confirm in me what Burke was saying. And so, I -- I wasn't a conservative the way <i>The</i> <i>National Review </i>was, but I was suddenly not as progressive. >> David M. Rubenstein: Well, sometimes when you get close to people you idolize you see their faults. Did you see any faults with William F. Buckley, or did you still idolize him? >> David Brooks: I -- I have immense admiration for him. I mean, we were talking backstage about his son Chris Buckley wrote a book and it showed some of the dark side of his father, which was there. The ADD is -- his father couldn't sit still when Christopher graduated from Yale, at the commencement, so he left. And so, Christopher had to have lunch after his own commencement alone. And that side of Buckley I saw. The -- he couldn't slow down. He -- he simply could not slow down. On the other hand, he asked me questions about everything. He took me to Bach concerts. He took be yachting. He was a surrogate father for 18 months. And what I saw is -- was his awesome capacity for friendship. One of his biographers estimated that he wrote more letters than anybody else in the 20th century, any other American. But he was constantly staying in touch with his friends and endeared to his friends. And the great thing is conversations at his home were almost never about politics, they were about ideas and literature. He was not primarily a political creature. >> David M. Rubenstein: So how long did you stay at <i>The National Review </i>? >> David Brooks: I did that for 18 months. >> David M. Rubenstein: What's that -- 18 months. That was short. >> David Brooks: It seemed long at the time. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay [laughter], and what did you do next? >> David Brooks: Then I came down here and I began one of two stints as a movie critic. First for <i>The Washington Times </i>, then for <i>The Wall Street Journal </i>. >> David M. Rubenstein: Did you have any background in being a movie critic? >> David Brooks: I had got -- because my social life was so rich in college, I went to the movies every night [laughter]. And so, I had seen a lot of movies and I will say, being a movie critic was fun. In those days I got to meet Katharine Hepburn, Kirk Douglas, Bert Lancaster. I had the best interview of my life with Jackie Gleason. I flew down to Florida and I was sitting in a hotel room and his wife walks in and plays <i>The Tonight Show </i>music and then Jackie Gleason walks in and goes like this [laughter]. And it's just me and him in a room [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: Wow. >> David Brooks: So, he tells me, just one hilarious story after another. The one I remember is he's telling -- he's out drinking with Joe DiMaggio at Toots Shor's, this bar in New York. And he bets DiMaggio a thousand bucks that he could race him around the block and beat him. For those who are younger than 40, DiMaggio was a professional athlete. Jackie Gleason weight approximately 2,000 pounds [laughter]. And so, they take off and they run around and as DiMaggio's turning the corner, he sees Gleason huffing and puffing up to the front door. And he can't believe Gleason beat him. So, Gleason says, okay, double or nothing. What's the odds I'm going to beat you twice? They take off, they run around, they turn, and once again Gleason is huffing and puffing up to the front door. So, he owes him 2,000 bucks and then about a half an hour later they're back in the bar. DiMaggio says, you know, we raced around the block, we never crossed on the bottom side [laughter]. And so, Gleason had hired a car to drive around the block [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so all right, your movie criticisms were well received or not? >> David Brooks: I think well enough. I will say being a movie critic ruined permanently my love for the movies. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so -- >> David Brooks: Because you put a notebook between yourself and the screen, and you can't get lost in the movie anymore. And then when you meet the people that are making the movies you realize how many financial decisions are going into each scene, and all you see is through the mind of the producer. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, what did you do next? >> David Brooks: Well, by then I was at <i>The Wall Street Journal </i>and I was -- I became a foreign correspondent. So, they sent me in the early-'90s to cover -- they told me, this is the part of the world you're going to cover; from Iceland to Vladivostok, from Scotland to Cape Town [laughter]. And so, but in those days, I covered nothing but good things. I covered the fall of the Soviet Union. Best story I ever covered. I covered the independence of Ukraine. The Berlin reunification, German reunification, Modella coming out of prison in South Africa. The Oslo peace process is the Middle East. It was all good news events. >> David M. Rubenstein: Did you ever go to Greenland or know? >> David Brooks: No, but I -- I put in a bid for it. But I [laughter] -- >> David M. Rubenstein: Skip Gates, how are you? Skip, how are you? >> David Brooks: Skip Gates. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, okay, so you did that for a while. You're a foreign policy expert. Then what did you do next? >> David Brooks: Well, I should say I'm reminded I had the best interview of my life in Russia. If you recall, there was a coup against the Yeltsin regime and he stood up on a tank in front of the white Russian Parliament building and I ran into a 90 some odd year old woman handing out sandwiches to the democracy protesters and she had grown up in a Czar's household. Her first husband had been killed in the civil war after the revolution. Her second husband and boys were killed in the Battle of Stalingrad. Her third husband was sent away to the gulag and disappeared. She was a [inaudible] people in the '50s and was sent away with her people by Khrushchev. And then she needed her life handing out sandwiches in front of the Russian parliament building. And so, she had personally experienced every single event of Soviet history. And it was one of those burning moments when you see history right in front of you. >> David M. Rubenstein: Right. So, what happened next? >> David Brooks: So, I came home, and I saw that American culture had changed. I grew up in -- I went to high school in a place called Wayne, Pennsylvania and when I left it was a waspy town where people wore green pants and duck ties [laughter]. And when I came back it had the first Anthropology, the store Anthropology. Like I never thought a store named after an academic discipline would come to Wayne, Pennsylvania [laughter]. And so, a new culture had come into being. >> David M. Rubenstein: Right. >> David Brooks: Which became the subject of my first book<i> Bobos in Paradise </i>. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, so when did you write that? >> David Brooks: That came out in 2000. >> David M. Rubenstein: And the theme of that book was? >> David Brooks: Well, Bobos are people who are half bourgeois and half bohemian. They're people with '60s values and '90s money [laughter]. And so basically, I came home, I looked at the <i>New York Times </i>wedding page, what they called the mergers and acquisitions page [laughter]. It was like Stanford marrying Yale, Goldman marrying McKenzie. I was thinking, you know, they -- you couldn't have a summa cum laude marrying magna cum laude because the tensions would be too great in that marriage [laughter]. And so, I'd seen the meritocracy come in to being, but they wanted to prove they were not money hungry, so they had a code of consumption to prove that they were still authentic progressives. And so, for example, one of the codes was you can spend money on it -- as much money as you want on any room formally used by the servants. So, the kitchens, you could spend a lot of money on the kitchens. And so, you had these nuclear reactors, these Augusto's started showing up. These nubby fabrics. You had a whole code that I basically made fun of. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, when did you begin writing for <i>The New York Times </i>? >> David Brooks: So, I went to work at <i>The Weekly Standard</i> where our job was to make the Republican Party moderate and reasonable. And that worked [laughter]. And -- >> David M. Rubenstein: How many years were you doing that? >> David Brooks: I -- I was at<i> The Standard </i>for nine years, where I really began to figure out what I actually thought. And then, around 2003 I got a call from Gail Collins who was editing the editorial page, and I sort of new she was going to ask me to write a column, so I took the train up and, on the way, up I said, no, no, no. Because my best length is 3,000, 5,000 words. 850 words are not my best length. And so, she and Arthur Scheilsbuerger asked the question and before I was going to say no, I said, has anybody ever said no to the question, do you want to become a<i> New York Times </i>columnist? And they said, no, no one's ever said not to this. And I had a failure of courage and I said yes [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay. All right, so what year was that you began? >> David Brooks: 2003. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, 2003. And so now, you're been writing how long? >> David Brooks: 16 years. >> David M. Rubenstein: And how many columns do you write a week? >> David Brooks: I write two a week, so that's 100 a year, and it's a lot. The saying -- my chief joke about being a conservative columnist at the <i>Times </i>, is it's like being the chief Rabbi at Mecca. Not a lot of company there [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, how long does it take you to write a column? >> David Brooks: It can be two and a half hours, and it can be 20 hours. The length of time I spend working on it has an inverse correlation to how good the column is. >> David M. Rubenstein: But do you ever get writers block and call them up and say, I just don't have anything today. >> David Brooks: Uh, no. That's not allowed. That's not the way it works. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, like suppose you -- >> David Brooks: The famous joke -- >> David M. Rubenstein: Suppose you write something that's 820 words. You need 30 more. Do you -- where do you get the extra 30? You always have to fill up exactly 850? >> David Brooks: I throw in some bilge about character and you know [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, were you surprised at the readership that you produced with those columns? How many people now read them, and I assume you're pretty well-known as a result of those columns. >> David Brooks: I don't know [laughter]. Well, I will say, the joke columnists tell about their job is it's -- it's like being married to a nymphomaniac. It seems good for the first two weeks [laughter]. But then you go to keep producing [laughter]. And -- but I actually -- the first six months on the job were the hardest professional months of my life. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you ever actually spend time with the other columnists or people in <i>The New York Times </i>or are you -- just write them at home and send them in? >> David Brooks: Weirdly we -- we're always on the road, so I'm here in the DC Bureau, and the two other columnists here, there other now, are Maureen Dowd, Tom Friedman, and David Leonhardt. And we're just on the road so much that -- I like them all, we get along, we just -- we just don't see each other. >> David M. Rubenstein: But do you ever have trouble coming up with an idea for a column or you always have plenty of those? >> David Brooks: I have desperate trouble. So, like I used to think like it's just sheer desperation, I used to think well, if I got hit by a bus and I lived I could get a column out of that [laughter]. And so, my only desires now is for column ideas. So, like I remember fantasizing about winning the lottery, but it was not the money, it was oh I could get a column out of that [laughter]. And so, it's the thing uppermost on my mind all the time. >> David M. Rubenstein: When did the PBS series start? The <i>NewsHour </i>. >> David Brooks: The<i> NewsHour </i>started in 2001. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so how -- how frequently do you do that? >> David Brooks: That's every Friday and with Mark Shields, who's most -- Mark Shields and Jim Lehrer, two of the most wonderful men I know [applause]. >> David M. Rubenstein: But every Friday you have to show up in Washington or whenever -- do you can't be anywhere else [inaudible]? >> David Brooks: Right, and so it does pin me down. Because I'm here every Friday. We wanted to call -- the segment is called Shields and Brooks. We wanted to call it Brook Shields. That would have been better [laughter]. But they didn't go for that. And the one -- my great observation about <i>The NewsHour </i>, it's something I'm intensely proud to be a part of. But we have a certain demographic who is out core demographic, which we call seasoned youth [laughter]. And so, if a 98-year-old lady comes up to me in the airport, I know what she's going to say. I don't watch your show, but my mother loves it [laughter]. And so, we are doing well with older folks. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you're supposed to be the conservative on that and is that a fair characterization? >> David Brooks: I'm supposed to be, but frankly over the years, I've -- I've been a struggle to still call myself a conservative. And I think now I just call myself the moderate. I have not left Edmund Burke, but the way the political worlds have shifted I -- it's more accurate to say I'm a moderate and someone who's politically homeless. >> David M. Rubenstein: But now that you're well known for your TV show and also the column, do your high school friends call you up and now say, you know, I really knew you were going to be successful? Are people calling you who didn't call you before? >> David Brooks: I dated a lot of people's sisters and in all cases, these were women who would have had nothing to do with me. But I would say no, my core childhood experience is I went to the same summer camp for 15 years. From -- and so that was my childhood. And I have relatively few friends from high school, but I have about 60 friends from this camp. And they treat me -- >> David M. Rubenstein: Like a Jewish day camp? >> David Brooks: Completely the same as they always -- >> David M. Rubenstein: It's a Jewish day camp somewhere? >> David Brooks: Well, it was called Church of the Incarnation, so it was unlikely to be a Jewish camp [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: So okay, so let's talk about your second book. What was your second book? >> David Brooks: That was called <i>On Paradise Drive </i>. And that was a post-9/11 book. An attempt to write a book capturing the spirit of America and how it showed out in everyday life. And in the middle of that book I saw a quote from Jacques Barzun that said, overbook is possible to write except a book about the spirit of America. I was like, oh damn, he's right [laughter]. But basically, I was -- I went out for the excerpts for people who live in the DC area. I spent a lot of time in Germantown, or in Springfield, or in Louden County. And I thought this -- these were the fast-growing places at that time. And I wanted to show how the spirit of America, of energy, and movement, and bigness, and excess, and really a utopian longing for some paradise -- >> David M. Rubenstein: Right. >> David Brooks: Was behind a lot of the moves. And so, I wrote about big box malls. And, you know, the -- you know, they would all have the suburban theme restaurants on the highway, which if they merge would be called Chili's Olive Garden Hard Rock Outback Cantina [laughter]. All these restaurants. And I was sort of obsessed with this part of America that nobody else is writing about. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, some of your columnists in <i>The New York Times</i> -- co-columnists -- they take time off to write a book. Do you take time off to write a book or how do you do that? >> David Brooks: I've done that twice and both times I've learned, and Gail Collins told me this, it did not accelerate the writing of the book, but it made you spend a lot more time with your garden [laughter]. And anything other than writing. >> David M. Rubenstein: So how long did it take you to write a book? >> David Brooks: I'm on a four-year cycle. I'm doing other stuff. But books to me, that's more or less the core of what I'm proud of. And it takes forever to structure a book. My books are always somewhat personal, somewhat public. And to get that structure, it takes me forever to do it, to figure out what the book is about. And the odd thing is, you get these complex book structures and then after four years you get down to the simple structure. And you think, why didn't I get the simple structure first? But it takes you four years to get to the simplicity on the other side of complexity. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, your third book was<i> Social Animal </i>. >> David Brooks: Yeah. >> David M. Rubenstein: And what was that about? >> David Brooks: Nominally a book about neuroscience, but it was really a book about emotion and me trying to understand emotion. Because it's not something -- I'm -- I always say Washington is the most emotionally avoidant city on the face of the earth [laughter], and I might have been the most emotionally avoidant person in that city. My friends joked that me writing a book about emotion was like Gandhi writing a book about gluttony [laughter]. And but, what the neuroscience was showing -- a great scientist named Antonio Damasio had patients who had lesions in their brains, and they could not actually experience emotion. And so, you would think they would be super smart Mr. Spocks. But in fact, they couldn't function in life because emotion is not the opposite of reason, emotion is the valuing device that tells us what we want. It's the foundation of reason. And so, people who are emotionally intelligent are also intellectually intelligent. The two go together. And so, Damasio's book is called <i>Descartes' Error </i>. Descarte thought reason and emotion were separate. But in fact, they're not. And so, I really wanted to write about how we educate the emotions through art and literature, and how we refine our emotional life through relationship with one another. In the course of writing that book -- and this is years ago now -- Taylor Swift was on <i>60 Minutes </i>and she was asked, you write a lot of sad songs. And she said, well actually there are 23 different kinds of sadness. There's your husband -- your boyfriend dumps you sadness, and she plays a tune. There's you lose your dog sadness, a different tune. Your mom's mad at you sadness, different tune. And to be aware of 23 different kinds of sadness or 25 kinds of joy, is just a better way to live. And a better way -- it gives you the capacity to see others deeply and know what's going on in their own emotional lives. And so that book was an attempt to write myself into some capacity for that. >> David M. Rubenstein: And you wrote a fourth book before you wrote this one. That was <i>The Road to Character </i>. What was that about? >> David Brooks: Well, what I learned from that book was that books -- a friend of mine has said this, but I didn't appreciate it. A magazine article can be about many things. Books have to be about one thing that people immediately can grasp. And so, I had a throwaway passage in that book saying there are two sets of virtues. There's the resume virtues, which is the things that make us good at our job. And then there's the eulogy virtues, then things they say about us after we're dead. Whether we're courageous, honest, honorable, capable of great love. And we spend a lot of time preparing people with the resume virtues, but we all know the eulogy virtues are more important. So how do you develop those? So, it was really -- and so that one phrase resume eulogy virtues sort of carried the book. And I think tapped into a sense that I think a lot of people share, that our culture is over politicized and over professionalized, and under moralized. That we render ourselves morally inarticulate by not really talking about how do we become better people. And that book was sort of watching 10 people -- 10 of my hero's, how they became -- how they went from being sort of human disasters at age 20, to really magnificent people by age 70. >> David M. Rubenstein: When you write a book, do you do it in long-hand or do you do it a computer? How do you do that? >> David Brooks: So, I have a really bad memory, so I usually have these notebooks in my pocket. I've got one right here. Anyway, paper. I'm always writing my ideas. And then I Xerox out a lot of stuff. And so, as I research a book, I'll have collected thousands of pages of notes. And what I do is I can only get them straight geographically, so I put -- create piles on the floor with the notes in the right pile. And when I write a column it's only 850 words, but they'll be 14 piles on the floor, because a pile is a paragraph. And I pick up the pile, write the paragraph, throw out the notes. Pick up the next pile. And so, writing to me, it not sitting at a keyboard tapping. It's crawling around on the floor of my living room [laughter] organizing my piles [laughter]. >> David M. Rubenstein: But you do -- actually you do write on a computer eventually? >> David Brooks: Well, I tell my students, by the time you sit and put it on the computer, your paper should be 80% done. Because writing is about traffic management. It's about structure and organization. And if you don't get the structure right, it won't flow. And so, getting that structure right -- and then the process of organizing the piles is the process of creativity. Sparks start coming. >> David M. Rubenstein: Some people who are writers, they like to say, I'll write a certain amount a day. If I get that amount done, I can do something else? Are you that way or do you write until you get tired? >> David Brooks: Not as crazy as some writers. Like Trollope is a very depressing writer to read about, because he wrote 250 words every 15 minutes. 2,500 words every day. And if he finished a novel before his 2,500 words, he just started another novel [laughter]. And that's just machine like. And -- but I -- I do have to write every day. Like my wife thought when we got married that we would have these nice breakfast conversations. But I cannot talk to other people until I've written my 800 or 1,000 words. So, I -- we all have our routines. Two routines I really like -- I think it was Toni Morrison -- she had a hotel room in her -- or a hotel room in her town where she kept a typewriter, a desk, brandy, and a bible. And she went there every day, did her thing. Cheever, John Cheever, had an apartment in New York and he would get up, put on his only suit and tie, ride the elevator down to the basement of his building where he had an office. He would take off the suit and the tie, he would write in his boxers until 12:30, then he put on the suit and tie, ride back up and make himself lunch [laughter]. And so, the rule is, the more creative the endeavor the more disciplined the work structure has to be. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, let's talk about your fifth book, <i>The Second Mountain </i>. So presumably there's a first mountain. What's the first mountain? >> David Brooks: The narrative device in this book is we get out of college and we -- we think we want to establish identity, want to establish a career, we want to play the game of the meritocracy. And so, we -- we start to laugh off. And sometimes we succeed and find it unsatisfying. Sometimes we fail. Sometimes a bad thing happens that wasn't part of the original plan. A cancer scares, or the loss of a child or something terrible. And suddenly you're in the valley. And when you're in the valley you realize the desires of the ego which propelled you up the first mountain were pretty unsatisfying. And then you're ready for a bigger, larger life. Which is not about building up ego, but descending into yourself, into your heart and soul, and you're not acquiring or contributing. And it's really a shift from one consciousness, which is from the consciousness our culture requires to a counterculture. >> David M. Rubenstein: But you were racing up the first mountain for part of your life you would say? >> David Brooks: Yeah. And I achieved so far beyond my dreams that I never -- it was crazy. But I remember -- I think four of my books have been best sellers and each time I get the call I'm surprised by how flat it is. It's nothing. And I'm the poster child for career success doesn't make you happy. And so, there -- there were part of the meritocracy that tells us lies. The first lie is that career success makes you happy. The second lie is that you can make yourself happy. If you just get better at, you know, yoga or, you know, a little thinner. But when you talk to people at the end of their lives, it's not the time they were self-sufficient that they were happy. It's the time they were utterly un-self-sufficient and completely dependent upon others. Another lie the meritocracy is that you can -- life is an individual journey. We give our kids these books, oh the places you'll go -- the Dr. Seuss book -- and it's about a kid graduating from school, all alone, going on a path to success. No friends, no family. And I ran into a sociologist who said she gives this book to her kids who are immigrants here and they hate the book, because it doesn't reflect life as they know it. Which is studded with relationships. And then another lie of our culture is -- and this is really a pernicious lie if you really want to screw up your society -- is that people who achieve more are somehow worth a little more than everybody else. And we pretend we don't tell this lie, but we really do in our actions. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so you -- the second mountain is the concern about community and other kinds of things like that? >> David Brooks: It's more a -- like I'll tell it in my own way. In my own life. So, around 2013 my life sort of crashed in on myself. Not the column, but I -- my kids had left home or were leaving home. My marriage had ended. I had most of my friendships in the conservative movement and I wasn't a conservative anymore. So, I lost a lot of that. And so, all of a sudden, I'm living in an apartment on Wisconsin Avenue and Newark Street, and I'm all alone. And I had weekday friends. Guys I could -- men and women I could take to lunch and talk politics. But I didn't have weekend friends. And my weekends were these vast expanses of silence where I would go on runs and I got in the best shape of my life. But, the way -- the symbol of that period for me is in my kitchen. I wasn't entertaining, nobody was coming over. When you open the drawer where there should have been -- my kitchen where there should have been forks and silverware, there was just post it notes. Because I was working all the time. And where there should have been plates there was just stationary. And like an idiot, I tried to evolve -- avoid an emotional and spiritual crisis by working through it. And workaholism is a very effective distraction from any deep problem, but eventually it crashes. And so, I went through this period where you -- the pain crashes you into yourself. Paul Tillich has a line -- he's a 19'50s theologian -- the line -- he says, suffering is an interruption of life and reminds you you're not the person you thought you were. It forces you to crash to the floor of what you thought was the basement of your soul and it reveals a cavity below that, and it carves through that and reveals a cavity below that. And so, in those moments of suffering we see deeper into ourselves than we ever though imaginable and we realize that only spiritual and emotional food can fill those places. So, the difference between the first and second mountain is not just selfishness versus community. It's having one of those experiences that causes you to crash into yourself and to come deeply into contact with your soul. And I say this -- I'm not a religious writer. I don't -- I don't care if you believe in God or not believe in God. But I do ask you to believe you have a soul. That there's some piece of you that has no shape, size, color, or weight, but gives you infinite value and dignity. And that rich people don't have more of this than poor people. Old more than young. Our soul is where our equality comes from. We don't have equal brainpower. We don't have equal muscle power. But the level of souls is -- is equal and infinite. [ Applause ] So, what this soul does, is it years for goodness. We all want to lead good lives. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you're in this period of time and how did you get to the second mountain? What did you do that got you up the second mountain? >> David Brooks: Well, I learned a few things. First thing I learned is that freedom suck. I had total freedom. I had the income of a 52-year-old and the open options of a 22-year-old. And all my married friends were projecting their fantasies onto me [laughter]. Oh, you should go out swinging. Yeah, that'd be great. And I learned freedom sucks. And then the second thing I learned is you can't solve your problem on the same level of consciousness on which you created it. Which is an Einstein teaching. And then the third thing I learned, was that you can't pull yourself out of the valley. Somebody has to reach down and pull you out. And so, I got a very lucky invitation in 2015 to go over to a house of a couple named Cathy and David, who live in Crestwood, up 17th Street. And I was accepting all invitations at this point [laughter]. And so, I walk in the door and Cathy and David had a kid in the DC public schools. And that kid had a friend who had -- his mom had health issues and stuff. And, so James -- this kid often didn't have a place to eat or stay. And so, they said, James can stay with us. And then James had a friend, and that kid had a friend, and that kid had a friend, that kid had a friend. And so, by the time I go to dinner there in 2015, they have 40 kids around the dinner table and 15 sleeping around the house. And so, I walk in the door, I reach out to shake a kid's hand, and he says, we really don't shake hands here. We just hug here. And so, I -- every Thursday night since then, I've been with those kids. I'm not the muggiest guy on the face of the earth, but they've taught me how to do it. And so, what the kids give us is emotional transparency. And they demand it from us. And they turn and look at you like they're flowers looking to the sun for love. And I took my daughter there and she came out and said, that's the warmest I've ever been. I took a guy named Bill Milligan, who started the communities in schools, and he's been doing youth work for 50 years. He said, I've been doing youth work for 50 years. I've never seen a program turn around a life. Only relationships turn around lives. And so that's what's happening here. And so, I'm writing about social isolation, all the fragmentation and hatred on the national level. And Thursday night at dinner I'm seeing the solution. And so, it was -- it was through that -- that was -- there were several experiences, but one of those experiences was suddenly an outward assistance on how to behave and live better. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, so part of this, you got married again? >> David Brooks: I got married again, which is another good thing. Yeah, and that was -- that -- having a happy marriage is like winning the lottery times a thousand. >> David M. Rubenstein: And okay, so today you would say you're happier than you've ever been? >> David Brooks: I've had a -- I mean raising my kids was a happy period. But I am -- I am blissfully, blissfully happy. >> David M. Rubenstein: Now, in your book you write about a new religious experience you had. You were born in one religion, now you're sort of in another religion or what is -- >> David Brooks: Sort of. It's -- the stupid joke I made once now that I have to live with forever is that I'm religiously bisexual [laughter]. But I grew up Jewish. And I went to -- got a bat mitzvah. For most of my adult life, kosher. And I experienced the kind of Jewish holiness. And Jewish holiness is not in -- my line is that every church service I go to is more spiritual than every synagogue service I go to. But every Friday night Shabbat meal is more spiritual than every church service I go to. At the meal on Shabbat, when the family is gathered and the blessings are said, it's like there's a feeling of [speaking in foreign language], loving kindness. And it's like 18 people around the table and 18 people are listening to 17 other conversations. They're all talking at once and correcting the 17 other wrong things that have just been said [laughter]. And that's sort of the Jewish goodness. But then I grew up -- I went to this school in New York called Grace Church School, an Episcopal school, and I went to this camp Incarnation, and there I saw another kind of goodness. Which was -- there was a guy there for example names Wes Lovenhorse who he had a gape. He had selfless love. He was like a man-child, a holy child, who just radiated joy. He spoke is whistles and always interrupting himself and laughing. And he did -- he saw horrible things in his life. He was -- became an Episcopal priest and worked in Honduras and then with women suffering from domestic violence in Annapolis. And yet, he radiated a sort of holy joy that I -- that was unaccountable to me. Dorothy Day has a line that Christians should act in a way that doesn't make sense unless God exists. And Wes was like that. So, I saw these two different kinds of goodness, which were inspiring to me. But it wasn't a problem, because I didn't believe in God anyway. So, it was just like two things. But then over the course of a number of years, as a friend of mine says, reality overflew the categories I had to understand it. You have certain moments of transcendence. You have certain moments as I described earlier where you -- you become aware of other people's souls. And if you're a journalist, you're writing stories about people, it can't just be about a bag of genetic material. The only reason we work hard at journalism is if other people have souls. That have some infinite consequence. And from there it was just the most boring -- you know I started reading religious stuff -- if you start going on a religions journey people send you books. So, I got about 750 books in the course of three or four months. Only 400 of wish were <i>Mere Christianity </i>by C.S. Lewis [laughter], different copies of -- and then, so I'm sitting in my apartment and Jesus somehow tarsorrhaphies through the wall. No, I'm kidding. That did not happen [laughter]. I just became aware that I was a person of faith. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, so you now are both religions. >> David Brooks: Well, my Jewish friends say no [laughter]. That's not allowed. And so, but I feel more Jewish than I ever did because now when I read Isaiah of Exodus, I think the covenant is real. It's not just a wisdom story. So, I feel more Jewish than ever and yet, the Sermon on the Mount is to me a -- a glimpse at a sort of celestial beauty that lingers. And I can't unread Matthew. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, so why should somebody -- now that they've seen what you've written about, heard what you've written about, why should they buy this book [laughter]? What's a good reason to buy the book now that they've heard about it? Should they -- will they learn a lot more by buying this book than they just heard [laughter]? >> David Brooks: It's a really good status item [laughter]. No, well the book is partly about the second mountain, but the second mountain is a life of commitment. And so, there's -- it started as a class. Actually, the book started, I was single, and I was dating. So, it was first going to be called The Marriage Decision: How Do You Decide Who to Marry? So, I spent a lot of time thinking about that. And then I was teaching, and I figured my college students were going to make four big commitments over the course of the next 20 years of their life. Most of them to a spouse and family. To a community. To a vocation. And to a philosophy in faith. And in my view, the second mountain in life is where you make maximal commitments to those things. You don't just have a career; you have a vocation. You don't just have a contract marriage where you're trying to be happy. You have a congenital marriage where you try to surrender yourself to your spouse's joy. And so, I tried to describe, and I do describe in the book, what it looks like to live a life of maximal commitments. We live in a hyper individualistic society and we're not going back to the 19'50s. But we can join our society together by making promises to each other and then trying to stay faithful to the promises. And a lot of it is just the practical nuts and bolts of how do you choose a vocation? How do you choose a marriage partner? How do you choose a community, et cetera. >> David M. Rubenstein: In other words, you'll live a happier life if you buy this book. Is that what you're saying [laughter]? >> David Brooks: Actually, that reminds me. I was teaching a kid -- a wonderful kid who was -- became a Rhodes Scholar, really smart kid. And he took my course. And at the end of it he said, you know, Professor Brooks your class had made me a lot sadder. And I was like, that's a win [laughter]. It's better to be a sad spiritual person than a happy achievatron. >> David M. Rubenstein: Now, recently you've taken on a new project, The Aspen Institute. What is that? >> David Brooks: Yeah, it's called Weave the Social Fabric Project. And it starts with -- I was writing these columns and there's our little symbol here -- on social isolation, fragmentation. Suicide has risen 30% since 1999. Teenage suicide has risen 70% since 2012. We're just seeing rise of distrust. And that seemed to me the underlying problem behind a lot of problems. But it's a problem that's being solved at the local level by people we call weavers who are building community. And so, we thought we'd go out, learn from their example and try to nationalize their effect. And so, I do this now every week. I go out somewhere in the country and I meet people who are really living for relationships, not for self, and building communities. And a lot of them are second mountain lives. There's a woman I met a while ago in New Orleans called Lisa Fitzpatrick. She was a healthcare executive. She was driving one day, and she saw two kids, 10 and 11, and they looked terrified. And they had something in their hands, and they held it up and it was a gun. And they shot her in the face. And it was a -- they had to do a gang initiation killing to get into this gang. And so, she recovers from this and she realizes I wasn't the victim here. I was collateral damage. Those two little boys were the victims, because they had to kill somebody so they could have a family. And so, she now devotes herself to gang work in New Orleans and she works for the city. And so, a lot of our weavers have had something negative happen in their life and they try to fix what happened to them. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, you are doing this with Aspen weekly. You're writing two columns a week. You're on PBS Friday nights. You're writing one book a year and you're teaching at Yale. And you're married. And you have three kids. So, you have any free time for anything? >> David Brooks: Uh [laughter], I actually -- this is a sad element of my life. People ask me what's my hobby. >> David M. Rubenstein: Right, and you're -- >> David Brooks: And I used to say, oh well I'm always going out to dinner night with my friends or my kids. But now I'm trying to take up tennis. >> David M. Rubenstein: Oh. >> David Brooks: I want to have a hobby. Because you have some pleasure in your life. >> David M. Rubenstein: So you spend a lot of time on television talking about politics, and when you were writing your column and you are writing it still, you were fairly critical of I think it was candidate Trump, maybe it's President Trump. I can't remember. You were critical of maybe both. So, what is your view on the likelihood of President Trump will get reelected? >> David Brooks: I have actually a cheerier view than a lot of my democratic friends. I think the guys at 40%. And he's offended 60%. I mean I take it stupidly, that's not good. And so, I -- I'm more -- I'm more optimistic that he will lose than a lot of the democrats that I hang around with. [ Cheering and Applause ] >> David M. Rubenstein: When you write any critical articles of him do you ever hear from him? Does he ever call you and say, I don't like that article? >> David Brooks: No, he used to tweet about me, but I've never -- I've never had any contact with him. I'm very happy not to. I really [laughter] I don't want to be in the same room with the guy. >> David M. Rubenstein: And so, what is your view on the likelihood that democrats will retain control the house or get control of the senate? >> David Brooks: As I say, well I do think the Democrats -- you know, when we see what I think is a pretty big advantage to the Democrats, of course knowing the party of the main questions, I wonder how they're going to find a way to screw this up [laughter]? And -- and so I -- you know I -- if I were advising the Democrats, which I'm sure is advice they'd love to get, I would say just go with the bland. Like the number one job is to get Trump out of office. >> David M. Rubenstein: And your view is the likely Democratic nominee is going to be who? >> David Brooks: If I -- my earlier answer to that question was Kamala Harris. I think she is a force of -- a force. And if you're thinking about who can stand up to Trump, I think she has personal character force. A forcefulness to her that I thought would be a good match. I'm now looking at the race and I'm thinking it could well be Elizabeth Warren. And I must say, I've -- I don't know her well, but I've spent some time with her, and I've never got the likability charge. I find her very warm. I mean I like law professors granted, [laughter] but I -- and if you looked at what she's done over the last three or four months, she's steadily climbed up the ranks and she's now got a higher favorability rating than any other Democrat. And she's taken 45,000 selfies [laughter]. So that's like retail politics [laughter]. And so, I'm -- I'm very -- you know, when you're covering a campaign like this, you're like a scout scouting a baseball pitcher. Who's got good stuff? I would say in substance, I don't agree with it. But just as a candidate I think she's a strong candidate. I have to say, I've known Biden for a long time, and I love -- I think he's a very lovely, very lovely man. >> David M. Rubenstein: But you don't think he will get the nomination or? >> David Brooks: No, I mean I'm very impressed by his strength. I thought it may fade. But there's a -- he has a real strength of support. And so, those are the three that I think are most likely. >> David M. Rubenstein: Okay, and so as you look back on what you've done with your life today, how old are you now? >> David Brooks: I turned 58 a couple days ago. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, well that's a teenager to me. So, you're 58-years-old. So, at 58, what would you say you're most proud of that you have achieved? >> David Brooks: I mean anybody's going to say your kids. >> David M. Rubenstein: Well, once you get past that. >> David Brooks: [Laughter] Well, I think what I would -- I wrote a book on humility so I should talk about how great I am. I would say it's continually being on the move and trying to continually learn more. I just wrote about a book coming out next week by General Jim Mattis called <i>Call Sign Chaos </i>, and he's a guy who just keeps going to learn more to be a better Marine. And he did that his whole life. He's got a great quote germane the this festival, where he says, if you haven't read hundreds of books you're illiterate, because your own private experience is not enough to get you through life. [ Applause ] >> David M. Rubenstein: So, did you parents live to see your success? Your professional success? >> David Brooks: Yeah, my father's still alive. My mom died about two and a half years ago. And they -- when my mom died, I lost my toughest critic [laughter]. I would send her my book manuscripts and she would -- she was like, this is garbage on the top of the page [laughter]. It's like -- she -- my mom was blunt and direct. So, I missed her for editing this book, but my emotional stability is a little -- >> David M. Rubenstein: And your father is he -- >> David Brooks: My rather is still alive and doing great. And he's right now up in the Botanical Gardens of Bronx in New York and the old homestead. >> David M. Rubenstein: And your children are they writer's as well? >> David Brooks: No. They go their own way. My daughter walked into a hockey rink at age five and suddenly felt at home. They're -- like I mentioned, these -- I discovered I want to become a writer at seven. I call these the enunciation moments. The moments early in life that prefigure a lot that's going to happen. And so, she walked into a hockey rink up in Rockville and felt at home. And she now teaches hockey for the Anaheim Ducks out in California. And she's hockey is life. >> David M. Rubenstein: And your other children? What are they doing? >> David Brooks: My youngest is a college student at The New School, 200 feet from where I went to elementary school. And my oldest, who's a boy, grew up here and then went to college and then served in the Israeli army for nearly three years and now he's back. He decided he likes protecting people, so he's going to go into law enforcement. >> David M. Rubenstein: So, the message that you would like to leave all these people with today is what? What is the main message you'd like to convey to people, not just about your book, but about life? What was the message that you would like to convey to this audience? >> David Brooks: Yeah, the one distinction that I found useful -- and it's in the book -- is the distinction between happiness and joy. And that happiness is about self-expansion. It's -- we feel happy when we taste a good meal, when we win a promotion, when our team wins the Super Bowl, when we feel bigger. Joy is when you erase the stuff. When you're involved in some moment so delicious that your sense of your own self fades away. And so, for example, I'll tell two stories. The first is me. I'm driving home from <i>The NewsHour </i>when my kids were little and I'm driving home to Bethesda, and so I pull into the side of the house and I see into the backyard. And my kids were then like 12, 9, and 4, were playing with a little ball. And they were kicking it up in the air and racing across the yard to get it, and they were falling all over each other, and they were tickling each other and giggling and laughing. It was just a scene of perfect family happiness. And it was summer sun coming through the trees. For some reason my lawn looked perfect [laughter]. And it was one of those moments were reality just spills out its boundaries, and I just shared at it through the windshield. And just was enveloped by joy that was better than anything I felt at work. And which I knew I could never have deserved. And we -- parents have all had that. And there are moments where you're just -- you're over awed by the way the universe has blessed you. And that's joy. You're not thinking about yourself at all, you dissolve. And another, I have a friend who's named Chris Wyman, who's a poet, who teaches with me at Yale. And he -- when you talk to Chris about his early life, he's often in different cities because there's a woman there. So, like why'd you live in Buffalo? Oh, there's a woman there. And so, he was living in Prague, because there's a woman there and [laughter] he was writing his poetry on the kitchen table and a falcon landed on the windowsill. And he was trying to -- the falcon was scanning the street and he was just struck by the beauty of the bird. And he calls to his girlfriend who's taking a shower, and he says to her, come here, come here, you've got to see this. So, she runs out of the shower, she's standing there dripping wet, and they're just looking at this bird. And the falcon turns its head and locks eyes with Wyman. And when Wyman says, as he looked into those birds' eyes he was like -- he felt something crumble inside, like looking at the centuries. It was like those experiences we feel in nature where we are just lost in it. And his girlfriend was -- knew the power of the moment and she said, make a wish. And he wrote a poem about it later and one of the stanza's is, and I wished, and I wished, and I wished, and I wished that the moment would not end. And just like that it vanished. But those are these elusive moments of joy that we experience. And it's not about the self and it's not about the ego. It's about surrender. And then there are some people we meet. I meet them with some regularity, who -- where joy is not a moment. It's just an outlook. They just radiate joy all the time. I work through Weave with Yoyo Ma. That guy just radiates joy all the time. Every human being it's like he's -- this is the first human being he's ever met. Oh my god, these creatures are amazing [laughter]. It's like -- and here I was at a panel or a luncheon at a thinktank, and I sat next to the Dali Lama. And that just -- I mean, he didn't see anything very profound which was disappointment to me [laughter], but he just laughed all the time. And just radiated a joy that comes from decades of spiritual -- >> David M. Rubenstein: You've said in your book, he laughed, and you didn't know why, but you were laughing just to make him feel good. >> David Brooks: I wanted to be polite [laughter]. But so, those -- that orientation, if you point toward happiness that's good. I'm all for happiness. But if you point toward joy, you'll be heading in the right direction. >> David M. Rubenstein: I want to thank you for a very interesting and emotional conversation. I hope -- I'm sorry this moment has to end but thank you David. And I assume you're signing books somewhere. >> David Brooks: I am. >> David M. Rubenstein: All right, thanks very much. >> David Brooks: Thank you.
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Channel: Library of Congress
Views: 1,964
Rating: 4.7333331 out of 5
Keywords: Library of Congress
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Length: 55min 12sec (3312 seconds)
Published: Wed Oct 16 2019
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