Data | Philosophy Tube

[Music] you go on the ID yeah sure [Music] giggle have a good night [Music] you go on the ID yeah sure what is that it's an ID scammer what does it do it scans your ID [Music] Tegel have a good name do on the ID yeah sure what is that it's an ID scammer is it compulsory it detects fakes is it compulsory though if you want to come in I've got a scan your ID what for it's just for security how long have you been doing that ages idea and all the clubs I don't want my data being captured and sent somewhere I don't really like spam emails than that does your ID have your email address on it no and her would you get spam emails I don't want my day I've been captured and sent somewhere doesn't it go anywhere the sign says the data may be shared with the Metropolitan Police or other trusted parts is me be will be can we get in this yeah all right pet Lucas just protect your safety isn't it's just the way in a while I'm not safe if I'm being surveilled against my will well then you can safely piss off can we gain things yeah all right pet Lucas just to protect your safety isn't it's just the way in the world it's not the way of the world it's the way they are harvesting companies make money maybe they should piss off and go broke well I don't run a date of harvesting company I'm not Johnny steal your data I just want the doors you can either have your ID scanned or go home can we get any things yeah all right pet Lucas just to protect your safety isn't it's just the way of the world [Music] we're nor the only place using these things about yeah no doesn't make it right can we get any things yeah all right pet Lucas just to protect your safety isn't it's just the way of the world is it since we've got my scanner we've had fewer faiths club managers stealing tips and booking people for illegal shifts if you want to investigate crimes you better off going off the management since we've got my scanner we've had fewer faiths 14 quid for a cocktail and you say it's not theft since we've got my scanner we've had fewer faiths yeah unless you count the theft of our data since we've got my scanner we've had fewer faiths it was weird well what's your answer there are criminal gangs operating in nightclubs they come in here and they target people but target them to do what steal their phones it's no exactly a violent crime epidemic is it if you didn't want to have your ID scanned you didn't have to come in since we've got my scanner we've had fewer faiths it still feels creepy being under surveillance like surely I should have to give some kind of informed consent of all you can just keep a record of everywhere I go on a Friday people know we scan IDs and they come here anyway it's not the same thing as informed consent if you didn't want to have your ID scanned you didn't have to come in still feels creepy be another surveillance surely I should have to give some kind of informed consent where does the date go just to the computer surely I should have to give some kind of informed consent how do I know my data's being securely stored surely I should have to give some kind of informed consent what day are you getting your name address each stuff like that how long do you keep it for I have no idea a copy of it what I want a copy of the data the Data Protection Act requires you to have a procedure in place for anybody who requests a copy of the day that you hold on them we have a procedure in place would you like to see the procedure yeah this is the procedure [Music] you on the ID oh yeah sure man oh what's that it's an ID scanner what for it's just for security I'm not gonna get like targeted advertising Emma why would you not want targeted advertisement I'd rather see an ad for someone might want cuz targeted advertising requires targeted surveillance it's the same with phones they track you all the time everywhere you go that's how they send you ads for anymore surveillance now in a bloody Soviet Union hey no no you mean pal do you wanna know this place has got cameras and all the tills at least the people in the Soviet Union are under surveillance by their own government who cares if Apple or Google knows where you are yeah but what's to stop them sharing that information with the government right Metropolitan Police are outside the tube station doing facial recognition with no public oversight or accountability or anything they can get just about everything off your phone can we get in please but you weren't showing your face sweetheart time I supply dialog over here no quite curious about that perspective I used to be a police officer oh well why'd you quit too much bloody paperwork why'd you quit partner was a [ __ ] [ __ ] why'd you quit one too many accusations of police brutality institutionalized gay bashing that never did anything a boat quite curious about that perspective I used to be a police officer oh well why'd you quit I couldn't stand that paperwork but the way I see it is if you've no got anything to hide what are you scared for well that would be good if it actually worked but like the men have got this algorithm right that they can plug into your phone and it's supposed to be able to tell if you've got any like dodgy pictures on it like like child pornography all right guns and stuff why that's clever some of this stuff is data okay Jesus Christ right right it sounds like a good idea but the algorithm obviously can't tell the difference between white child pornography and just consensual nudes from an adult and it also can't tell the difference between a photo of a naked human body and sand dunes sand dunes yeah what deserts like it thinks they're porn my dance ass cuz algorithms a [ __ ] basically I mean let's say you've got an algorithm that's supposed to look at pictures of animals and tell you what they are and it's like is this a wolf and you go yes I'm like okay that's a wolf then that's gonna be a wolf then you go yeah and you guys well if those two wolves then that's definitely gonna be a wolf and you're like no that's a lizard and it's like but they all have white backgrounds why see cuz you you can't see what the machine is looking at right okay well this should fix it should tell the algorithm that's the wolf that's a lizard that's not a pair of tits that's the Mojave right but that porn detecting algorithm goes through hundreds of thousands of photos pixel-by-pixel in a way they're absolutely no human brain processes images and no human can understand how it makes the decisions that it makes so that's how come algorithms can be obviously wrong and bad but we can't fix them because their reasoning is just like a black box well I'm sure they'll find a way to fix it no that's the point they can't gathering massive amounts of data from surveillance and using algorithms to crunch it is obviously a terrible idea but we use it for stuff like deciding where police officers get to patrol them who should be released from prison well this is fascinating but I've got a scan yet ID now ask you to move along on that the others in well that should fix it should tell the algorithm that's the wolf that's a lizard that's not a pair of tits that's the Mojave yeah but we can't tell what they make their decisions based on only whether or not they come to the right conclusions all the algorithms the big date of stuff that gets used in targeted ads and that even military stuff is just like this is the doohickey this is the dongle and nobody actually knows how they work well all the targets and advertisements I get fed are pretty close I think all this tech is simplified stuff but life's not black and white all the time well this is fascinating but I've got a scan yet ID now I asked you to move along and let the others in well all the targeted advertisements I get fed are pretty close sometimes it's scary well they're actually all got one big weakness though let's say that you go to see Magic Mike the stage show on Wednesday and then you go to a gay club on Thursday and then on Friday you're here and you've got your phone on you all the time saving track so they can send you ads and algorithms gonna go okay he's been to these three specific locations so statistically he's probably a pure bran legend Yeah right so it's gonna go statistically this guy's a legend maybe he would like tickets to see Kim Petrus live on Monday and it sends me that bit about tickets too right [ __ ] Bob after bought with Kim hey but the problem with using an algorithm to determine whether somebody's gonna buy a product or not is it's not like trying to predict the roll of a dice where there's only six possible outcomes maybe you go a three-day event and then you bike in Patras tickets maybe you go three Garrett's and then you've moved to Sweden and start a turnip farm with nine golden retrievers right humans don't think probabilistically so in order to use an algorithm to predict somebody's behavior you have to decide that some possible outcomes aren't relevant and that's the problem who gets to decide which of my possible actions on relevant enough to be worth considering you're talking about targeted advertisement not not just that I mean it's not so important when it comes to that but I'm talking about algorithms that determine things like who gets access to social housing or finances or where do police officers get to patrol gathering loads of data from surveillance and crunching it with big day algorithms is just a really terrible idea well this is fascinating but I've got a scan yet ID now I asked you to move along and let the others in do you have all right since you like asking questions he's a good one thing I read this the other day if you can answer let's all that yet all right there's this woman right called Linda she's 31 years old single outspoken clever she studied philosophy when she was a student she was big into social justice protests anti-nuclear demonstrations she sounds great what's the number right so here's the question which of the following is more problem number one Linda is a bank teller or number two Linda is a bank teller and also a feminist number two no it's actually number one because mathematically the probability of two things happening together is always small and the probability of just one thing happening on its own oh damn maths don't lie my friend and now I've got a scan Yanagi the question is flawed what the questions flawed when most people hear the word probable they don't think of mathematics they'll just generalize from what they know if you ask somebody what's more probable then they'll tell you what they think based on their experience or they'll tell you what they think you want to hear it's not a problem with human beings that they don't think like mathematical machines [Music] you've only ID yeah sure whoa what is that it's just an ID scanner what for it's just for security no I don't want that it's nobody's business where I go on a Friday night this surveillance man I know what you mean pal the owner of this place has got cameras and all the tails really I tell you what as well the bloody Metropolitan Police are outside the tube station with a little facial recognition cameras stop it in search of people I nobody likes it but it's all for our protection I used to be a police officer the way I see is if you know get anything to hide and what you're scared for well I mean imagine the government might pass the law saying that you have to be tracked 24/7 everywhere you go would you support it no right and if you were still a police officer would you enforce it why that's my job imagine the government might pass the law saying that you have to be tracked 24/7 and everywhere you go would you support it no right it would be horrible people would be too scared to protest or have meetings or challenge the government in any way it would be like 1984 and yet that is exactly what smartphone does and it's exactly what that's calendars right band or the government it's not like we got Boris Johnson inside making cocktails who cares if Apple or Google knows where you are all right what about kids kids yeah kids under 18 have smart phones and you can track their exact location at all times aye but location D is anonymous not really if I know the exact location of your phone even if that data doesn't have your name written next to it who else stands outside this club every Friday night even in a big bunch of anonymized location day if you know anything about the person that you're trying to spy on it's really easy to pick them up [Music] can we can please show your face literally tell all that from your phone yeah man there was a thing in the New York Times about our while ago these two journalists got hold of all the location data from like 12 millions people's phones and then they could really easily tell who was who because they were like right the guy that we want to spy on we know that he works outside a nightclub and then look this phone is standing outside a nightclub all night so that's him and then when now we know where he lives what we follow his location no look there's two phones in his house that go at school every day now we know where his kids are as well Jesus Christ oh man and that's my point if it's sinister to do it to children why is it less than a sister too well good thing nobody would let me track me anyway it's not like I'm a celebrity or a terrorist right but I mean say I spy on you every night in your flat and you never find out and it never does you any harm or anything but in that scenario we are not equal because I've got everything on you but you've got nothing on me the more surveillance people are under the less equal the society but if everybody's got a smartphone then everybody's under surveillance on a stick but everyone's not under the same amount of surveillance why you said the boss in here has got cameras on the tills but do you have a camera in the boss's office to make sure he isn't underpaid yeah the lower down you are the more you get spied on but you're a person I mean fair enough I didn't want a person watching me but the scanner is not a person it doesn't even know you're there but that's just psychological bias a machine can gather way more data put you under way more surveillance so the risks of it getting stolen or useful political repression are actually much greater but if it's somebody just looking through your window and jacking off but you're a person I mean fair enough I didn't want a person watching me but the scanner is not a person it doesn't even know you're there and if your data gets automatically saying to some algorithm the emails you're not very you never even bloody need the new cares your nor under surveillance it's your data double it's not my date a double that's something just stand parent up this argument that's it it's not my date a double that might get denied a bank loan because some algorithm brain farts and says I'm not credit worthy it's not my date a double that might get refused parole because an algorithm told to judge that I'm more likely to Rhea fend it snot my day a double his access to stuff like social housing or insurance or the news media I get fed is determined by an algorithm and it's not my day done well that has to feel like he doesn't have any control over his life or any bloody service having to you're not under surveillance it's your data double up the perfect semblance of your bodily frame instinct with an expressible beauty and grace each stain of earthliness has passed away the data table assumes it's native dignity and stands immortal amid ruin your know under surveillance it's your data it's the same thing that was there like the the spies in the Soviet Union or the Gestapo whatever could have said oh it's not you that we're following it's actually just you politics double I'm telling you man like it's not good for people to be under this much surveillance it's like constant threat of violence or come off it surveillance is not the same thing as violence yeah in the same way that check isn't the same thing it's checkmate I'm telling you man like it's not good for people to be under this much surveillance it's like constant threat of violence or come off it surveillance is not the same thing as violence depends how you define violence I'm telling you man it's not good for people to live under surveillance well if you didn't like technology why can't you just go and live in the woods it's not that I don't like technology I'm not trying to separate myself from it all the spaces that it helps shape I just want to live in a society where I have control over my life and I can live equally with other people well if you didn't like technology why can't you just go and live in the woods it's not that I don't like technology I don't like the fact that I have no control over the uses to which the technology that affects my life is put well if you didn't like technology why can't you just go and live in the woods because even if I secure all of my data if I talk to one person who hasn't secured theirs then a company like Cambridge analytic I can read my whole half of the conversation I'd still only be as secure as my least secure friend well if he didn't like technology why can't you just go and live in the woods it's not that I don't like technology I just resent the fact that I have to organize my life in such a way that the maximum amount of profitable data can be extracted from it why can't you just go because I shouldn't bloody have to I'm telling you man it's not good for people to live under surveillance well I'll tell you what if you let me scan your ID and get on with my shift I'll give you this I'll go toward your entrance fee and it will buy you a drink if you're so concerned about your data being stolen I'll buy it off you that is kind but it doesn't really solve the problem even if companies did pay people for the day or instead of to spy on them all the time it's not really worth that much individually only on mass so we'd only be getting like pennies if you're so concerned about your data being stolen I'll buy it off that's kind but even if companies did pay people for the day or instead of spying on them all the time there's nothing to stop a big company like Facebook going okay we're gonna charge you for Facebook now unless you give us the rights to all of your data which is now illegally our property and then do you really think people are going to jump ship and go to another site no like paying people with their data is trying to make the game fair by introducing market logic but one side is already five-nil up even if companies did start paying people people who need money will be under great pressure to sell it so it's just surveillance that disproportionately affects the poor even if companies did start paving over their date or instead of spying on them all the time how do we know that they can store it securely and stop it getting nicked my privacy shouldn't be for sale I'm telling you man it's not good for people to live under surveillance why not if it helps prevent crime and nobody cares why do you care because it makes me feel powerless it makes me feel like I'm not in control of my life nobody's in control of their life just have a paint no it's just like technology and bodies ideas you know it uses us as much as we use it why thanks Neal I'm glad you're here to save us all from the deep steeped simulate tricks I mean you kid well I surely you've got to admit but mass surveillance isn't a good way to organize a society it doesn't make people happy maybe not but I didn't organize it and there's no law I can do I mean to be fair tiii I don't mind I didn't watch all the time either but just the bounce out well if you really don't like it you could join a union you could get together with the other bouncers and say you're not gonna scan IDs anymore because you think it's wrong oh yeah I'll be sure to do that I mean to be fair - yeah I I don't mind idea man watch all the time either but just the dancer yeah well we should have some kind of law that stops people being spied on I guess like digital bill of rights ie next time I'm in Parliament I'll be sure and do that I'm telling you man it's not good for people to live under surveillance why not if it helps prevent claim the neba decals why do you care because it means I can't talk to you like an equal all of this compulsory surveillance technology it pushes me to do things that I don't want to do to meet goals that I don't share that I don't even understand that I have no control over and it pushes you to enforce them I shouldn't have to constantly compromise on my freedom you shouldn't have to inflict that on people I mean I think we should think about what kind of people this makes now what kind of person does it make you that you stand here inflicting unwelcome surveillance on people every Friday night for 13 quid an hour making me think about myself all right I don't want to think about myself dentist and I don't want to think about what this machine does I want to get through my shift and go home and on the weekend I want to get drunk and watch Celtic beat the Rangers do you hear me I don't want to think [Music] I [Music] do my [Music] cuz I just [Music] closin every page one by one soon your other daughter you come happy alone but [Music] time like [Music] [Music] you yeah it's rewind time

Channel: Philosophy Tube

Views: 674,202

Rating: 4.9535904 out of 5

Keywords: Data, Algorithm, Education, Surveillance, Cambridge Analytica, Philosophy, Philosophy Tube, Oliver Thorn, Spying, cell phones, smartphones, tracking, technology, privacy

Id: fCUTX1jurJ4

Length: 26min 14sec (1574 seconds)

Published: Fri Jan 31 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/RaizePOE]

Olly out here savescrumming convos.

For real tho, this was neat. Cool way to do a dialectic, since it lets him give several answers to certain questions all kind of simultaneously. I like it!

[u/BalderSion]

Initially I was thrown, because I'm used to PT cutting away from the 'scene' for an 'addressing the audience directly' element, I kept waiting for the knowledge drop, but it never came. That said, I like the choice made to stay on the discourse and take it where it was inevitably going.

[u/fairebelle]

Turn the subtitles on this one and stick around for the credits

[u/mumblerfish]

I actually had this sort of convo with my mom at one point. We were at some bar, and she says some shit about crime prevention, then she turns to me and says -- and this never happens because we disagree on most things, and she'd rather have me not contradict her -- "what do you think?"

Ollie had another video on "should crime be criminal", or something like that, and I put that argument on her (we're not from the US, for context):

• Well, say that everyone is surveiled to the point where no one can commit a crime, right?
• OK
• So if you've done a crime in you past, you cannot even get on the bus without being checked. Then the whole Rosa Parks incident would never have happened, which did lead to only good things.
• Who is that? [her husband] - That's the black woman who sat on a white man spot.
• Right, in the US, Rosa Parks were known for her antics [don't know if it is true, just following on what Ollie said, as I remember it], who sat in an "illegal" seat on a bus. And if we'd had the surveillance of today, or close future, that would never have happened. Because she would have been spotted and never been able to. Which was a spark for a good cause, and that would never have happened. That is why we need some room for people to commit crimes. Because we may not be able to see what laws are unjust. [and implied: why surveillance is bad for crime prevention]

No comeback. Thanks Ollie for the philosophy-fu you are teaching us.

[u/foxaru]

So the Disco Elysium writer put out a video recently talking about how he wrote the game, specifically from the perspective of how all of your skills talk to you. In it, he mentions that a lot of the time in order to get someone to understand something in a game narrative you have to tell that person the same thing maybe 6 or 7 times in order for them to really grasp the idea, or they'll just skip over it mentally and not absorb it.

I have no idea if Olly's seen the same interview as I had, but assuming that he had it would be an interesting thing to try and apply to a video without the obviously sub-optimal approach of an essay like repetition of your point said multiple different ways.

Good video, well argued and interestingly presented.

[u/ColdBrewCoffeeGuy]

This video hit me hard, especially the ending with the bouncer.

I had these types of thoughts too after I got my job at the 7-11. All the workers here know that the store owner watches us through the security cameras. Granted, in our case, it isn't too bad as the boss is exceptionally lazy and a complete Cloud cuckoo lander who never does anything, but still. We shouldn't be watched by him.

The issue is we were never asked, we were told this is it now.

That said, there are some ways to opt out of some tracking. For instance, you can opt out of having google track you. Know that, it'll give you a little control over your internet life.

[u/Vitztlampaehecatl]

<synth that sounds like failure> 4:34

[u/davaca]

I don't really understand his point regarding the feminist bank teller. That people misinterpret the question is the point, the math is still correct, but humans don't easily think mathematically.

[u/NicolasBroaddus]

I can definitely see why he cites Bentham and Foucault in the readings. I just finished Discipline and Punish, and was having a lot of similar thoughts about the surveillance state. We live in a panopticon infinitely more depersonalizing and data gathering than anything Foucault could have imagined.