Culture is Cancerous to Art & Art As A Way Of Revealing Hidden Truth w/ Ayishat Akanbi #45 #SYWBAA

we're so locked into the culture and how to be a loyal member of that we broke ourselves off from so many other things so in many ways yeah I'll say the culture too because like anything that limits like your potential you know and that tells you who you should be this is cancerous to up sometimes when I do come across something feels intrinsically true and like I felt this as a child you know maybe are for me is helping people remember what they know is true deep down I definitely went through a very intense stage of feeling like I was a boy it took me a long time to realize oh how many mean it could be anything like one I literally lost the mind that had been controlling me we definitely need a more holistic framework to look at mental illness because everything we are saying here right now is comically controversial in Nice how have you been it's been like we just speaking about it's been years yeah I think it's been like four years yeah it's been good you know things have been moving in the right direction and yeah I'm I'm I'm content can remember anything we spoke about last time oh my gosh and I feel like we spoke about music probably I'm pretty bad at oh I'll be honest I don't really listen to the stuff that I do ever again just so yeah I'm just I'm so nervous about the potential of me just tearing to pieces and everything I do and hating my voice I'm just like once it's out there I just let it be everybody else is I recently well this morning dug back into our first one just to hear your answer to the first question that I'll ask you I always ask what is art mmm obviously you can't remember it so I'll tell you what it is and see if your definition has changed okay let's launch off on the usual point what is art art is a creative expression I guess I think that's maybe the most stripped-back answer I can give it's the creative expression I was gonna say that maybe comes from the heart but that's not even true always it doesn't have to but yeah let's stick with art is the creative expression so your answer last time was art as an honest expression mmm interesting interesting yeah yeah yeah less of a less of a tyranny yeah yeah yes interesting which I would kind of expect the opposite considering it feels like from why I've seen your path has been one of increased dedication to truth yeah I would hope so at least um yeah I think honesty is a really important thing and it's something that I tried to encourage in everything that I do and maybe now I would say that it because last time he spoke to me thought about art I guess I was giving you my definition by what art means to me as opposed to what art is in the world you know I was kind of maybe a bit biased there because there is a lot of art there isn't honest but it's still our honesty would be my preference you just said that for me honesty as an integral ingredient but you realize that that's not necessarily the case for everybody mm-hmm but in terms of art for me being an idealist is there for my expression let's say is I'm chasing or trying to give birth to my ideals I guess for me there's a future projection of of creating this world or creating this attitude or creating this idea that I want to exist in the world it's about evolution for me personally so it's interesting for you to say that that your preference is not necessarily your definition for me at its best and then it's most productive are is an embodiment of my ideals and of the things I value and think a healthy and beneficial and productive for the world and that probably won't ever change I think Banksy says it best when he said art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable and I think that's a really nice way of thinking about it because I like art that's provocative as well I like art that um makes me feel something I quite like to trigger myself into feeling so are it's essentially propaganda mm-hmm I guess you could say yeah in ways I mean propaganda for some has a cynical undertone I don't know I mean I'll think about that one but yes there in many ways it can be propaganda let's say with a lot of my expression it is honest but I guess yeah I guess maybe if there's if there's an intention behind your honesty maybe that makes it propaganda I am Not sure this is interesting to dwell on for a second the ID of art being propaganda because it it inflicts the idea that there is some kind of war going on well yes I mean in many ways you know I think they say we're all fighting some invisible or you know whether that's the war of our minds the war of love you know and and how that can be a battle whether its receiving or accepting you know it it's not always as simple and straightforward for a for everyone and so I guess there is a war of sorts that we're all dealing with and even if not at present that happens at a certain point when we lose someone when we face heartbreak and so yeah and in a spiritual war you know depending on your lens and how you look at life and if you recognize that part of life there are forces and things out there they're sort of assaults my spirit yeah for me you know there's a lot of things that I may not find offensive to my intellect or even my sense of identity but definitely to my sense of spirit and that can come in all types of things that can be advertising that sometimes certain music that's certain political practices it's the way we treat each other it's yeah all of those for me feel quite offensive so my spirit is interesting there's a divide between your sense of identity your sense of spirit and your sense of intellect do how do you create those divisions how do you separate the three mm well identity is social you know it's that thing that we recognize as we move through the world so woman black you know and so on intellects I think is very detached from spirit to me you know I think intellect is very much in your head and and spirit is maybe more so in your heart it's intuition it's a different type of intelligence less recognized type of intelligence but to me the most important type and so that's how I split it so that's head heart and social is there a hierarchy it's the heart that's the hierarchy for me but you know but you have to be careful there because as much as I would put my heart at the top of this hierarchy it has to work it has still merged well with the head I can't let my heart rule completely maybe in my heart and maybe in you know what I'm writing while I'm putting out very much so there but even still actually I think you know your head engages with your heart when you are in you know the physical world over the years I've I've battled that idea there's been times where I've really valued intellect and I thought intellect was like the biggest virtue and the number one thing that was important for people to have and I don't see intelligence as a virtue anymore because intelligence can be dangerous also you know intelligence is productive or helpful but I wouldn't say that it's a virtue there's a symbiosis that's necessary of a relationship of mutual dependency mm-hmm and where one can't exist without the other and there has to be complete harmony between between those separations so for me it's like the heart itself cannot cannot exist in its in its chaotic state doesn't it need some kind of order because as you know as I'm sure we both know you get in that place of emotion you get in that place of connectedness with your spirit mm-hmm and it's maddening mm-hmm it's like Huxley would say you can't take the valve off of the central nervous system all the way off you need a sense of normalcy you need to have your edges blunt and blunted because otherwise you just be waved too sharp and and you'll probably become a destructive force to yourself or outwardly mmm but for me that intellect on its own cannot exist either because you have all the ideas and no real experience no real knowledge you know because the intellect is essentially just articulated examples of what the spin experiences so because if it's not in tune with the spirit it's not true mmm therefore it's not smart because you can't you can't be a liar and smart at the same time and this that's different conversation mm-hmm and then the identity stuff is just how the relationship between those two is expressed outwardly how you interact with your environment how you interact with your friends and your family so there's a real state of mutual dependency about the whole thing it's certain it's the Holy Trinity essentially very much so yeah I think so you're right they they do have to harmonize and again I have a feeling that we both know what it's like to try and live solely through the heart and how maddening that can be harmony and integrating all of these things you know integration is is very good or at least productive also the most challenge and I'd say oh my gosh yeah it really is um yeah that's probably gonna be my biggest life's work is you know integrating all of those things and trying to find a comfortable balance between all three the product of art is the integration of the relationship between spirit and mind yeah so what happens then for you if a piece of art doesn't have maybe the integration of all three then I walk away and I try to find something else to pay attention to there's always varying degrees of resolution on the truth mm and it's for me it's about all being around those pieces or those people or those ideas that have a thread that you can just keep pulling it's nice to know what's not for you you know I always think that I may not know who I am but I've got quite a good grip um I'm not you know and that might be just as good how did you get caught up in that process did you ever get caught up the caught up in the process of what of thinking you knew who you are oh yeah I think that's you know it's youthful hubris you know we you know you know becomes 20 or 16 when I'm 69 I know everything I'm 21 like what can you tell me and yeah I guess you know I don't know how convinced I was but I very much yes in fact now I think yeah there was very much times in my life maybe around 24 25 where I thought I'd worked out a lot of the world and I thought my beliefs and opinions then would always be the ones that I have and at that time I was quite radical and when I say radical I mean you know it was when I was deeply engaging with social issues so when you start engaging with social issues and you're angry you know because it's the first time or maybe not the first time but it's it's when it clicks that you know the world is yeah just not exactly what you thought it was you know and and the reaction to that is is one that's quite intense and and so I was angry for a while and kind of saw everybody maybe not everybody but a lot of people too many people as the enemy and I thought that was righteous I thought there was something really special in that I know like you know I Know Who I am and these are the evil guys these are the bad guys like you know and I am on I'm on the right side you know I I know what I'm doing and yeah so in that sense yeah I was very much caught up in an ego game and a game of not really exploring myself well how does how does your grip on something that's so important like social issues how does that loosen mm I guess it's just a different approach to it you know I think a lot of us have similar approaches we may not think so but essentially we're all looking for someone to blame you know in whichever way whether it's you know you know the world is this way because of the writer and the world is this way because of dumb left this Sun might sail the world is this way because of white supremacy the world is this way because of men the world and so we're all you know we're all kind of you know engaging in a similar game which is important I guess yeah it's important but I guess I just changed my approach so even ideas that I really don't like I tried to engage with positions I really don't like to engage with because most people don't think they're doing something wrong most people can justify their positions with at least something noble sounding once you do that for one your anger sort of releases and I know there's a lot of talk these days about the usefulness of anger and how anger is a radical thing especially let's say for women because women's anger is often been stigmatized and I think anger should be a visit that it shouldn't be a final resting place you know and for some and maybe like I was at one point it was a resting place or a place that I felt like I needed to make a home from and I think you know as much as anger can be productive because if it drives you to do you know it drives you to maybe to to join forces with people to get outside to to raise your voice but it's also blinding you know and and that blind spot is important to me there's a middle ground that I'm interested in there's a middle ground there's uh because there's often you know a lot of or at least kernels of truth you know within both perspectives or in a variety of perspectives and I think it's important to be able to to hold those different truths or those different perspectives at once as to never get caught up in either side of the extreme yeah I think it's you know what some people may be Buddhist would call like a middle path leading us back to our I feel like the the spectrum of good and bad are there's a everybody feels anger everybody feels these emotions you know there's there's only a few amount of emotions that we can really feel the nuances of course a infinite but the categories of them are are but are pretty definite and pretty Universal and for me things like fear and anger and everything that comes from that darker side of emotion for me has to be reconciled in that middle path or or as a result of walking that middle path toeing that line and then making something beautiful out of that initial feeling and emotion most love songs that are beautiful for me a rooted and death and the finitude of humans and therefore the finitude of relationships are the most beautiful things about anger the most beautifully angry things are the ones that have somehow found a way to reconcile it and make peace mmm it's that alchemy mmm I guess for me that that would keep me in front of a painting would keep a song on repeat would get me buying more cinema tickets and DVDs and stuff is that reconciliation and how important do you do you feel that reconciliation is what I tend to naturally gravitate to is raw emotion sometimes it's not worked out sometimes it's not resolved because in life sometimes things aren't resolved and I like that you know I I like the ambiguity I like not being given an ending that is always pleasing so I just I genuinely just really like a war expression and in music in particular which is perhaps maybe the art form that I most engage with you know I like hearing songs about things that we don't often talk about you know because there are a lot of popular music is dominated by love which is great because you know we we need more love probably well to say love I'd say the loss of love yeah yeah yes in the blues yeah yeah yeah exactly that you know sometimes you know like III want to him you know or I like a song about like not being able to leave your room you know I like a song that's about dealing with the monsters in your head because I I think you know although life is life is infused with like moments of joy and absolute bliss and happiness but there's a lot of anguish you know in between that time as well or at least in my experience of life and so I like things that speak to that surely our evolutionary aim as a spiritual spiritual evolutionary aim is to shorten the gaps of anguish between the moments of elation yeah I hope so or at least not let the anguish be in vain and by that I mean what do we learn from anguish and what can anguish teach us about what it is to be human you know and how our fellow humans may be feeling for me the moments of anguish that I felt or complete load times I felt is probably a direct reason as to why I approached the world or at least I tried to quite gently you know my think to myself well I've gone through all of these things and I appear quite normal quite functioning and I guess I answer to some degree but you know it's invisible nobody sees them and so that leads me to think well you know how many other people are dealing with this you know and I function relatively okay but yet there's this thing and so that makes me tread carefully throughout the world but yes you are right I think the goal is to lessen these moments and if we can't lessen them then I think we should be asking like what can we learn from them or how or can this teach me about being in the world for me that's where I get my definition of art from this because I ask myself well how mmm how do I shorten these these durations of anguish how do I make the load lighter to bear and how do i reconcile yeah yeah and then I go well now what and I go I share it yeah yeah yeah I share my wounded but bandaged self with the world I say you do it too yeah let's see what happens when we create a community of people that are all doing that yeah there's a big part of me that recognizes the fundamental necessity of opposing forces you can I completely understand that but for me I'm happy with a short but strong amount of anguish and in a long intense period of blessed you know like a big mmm asteroid and then a huge tsunami of of surrender mmm I want more joy yeah I want to give more joy and I want to I want to help people find their own joy yeah so for me if the if the I ain't doing that then it's not me I'm asking okay your expression is valid mmm but what's it gonna do for first of all for you and what's it gonna do for the person who's listening to you identify with it but now all I know is that I'm in the hole with somebody else which is reassuring but it's not evolutionary and I think that's the difference between revolution and evolution ooh even even etymologically even in the language of the word what is revolution it's a going round in a circle hmm what is an evolution it's a spiral mm-hmm every step we get closer to the middle of a revolution we just go back back and forth from round in circles so for me your art has to be evolutionary good anyway yeah so it's joy so after you as joy is like a are for you is like the reminder of joy or the reinforcement of joy a relic of joy okay yeah a map to joy or good way of putting it it's never joy itself you see this is the thing that I have been thinking recently the art is never the joy itself it's just a reflection or a representation or proof that joy exists it cannot lead you to the feet of joy it's just there for you to be able to tell when joy has ended yeah it's not joy itself but still hey this is what it might sound like I might feel like so that when you're in it you know mm when you're in a holy moment when you're at the feet of the sublime you'll know because you heard this or because you saw this and your room and you'll remember there's another thing for me that's been very prevalent recently I have visions of me on my deathbed and my last words being I remember you as I returned I remember and then that changes my mission - how can I get other people to remember now not then when it's too late when I'm at the gates how can I get them so remember now and how can that change the definition of the world you know sometimes when I do come across something this new from nowhere let's say I haven't read a book but all of a sudden like a something feels intrinsically true I'm like I felt this as a child like I knew this as easier as a young person you know where you're kind of just able to be a bit more limitless in your thinking because you don't have as many cultural social restrictions on you and so you know maybe are for me another side of our is helping people remember what they know is true deep down you know because I think we we know a lot more than we allow ourselves to because it's buried under you know what I have to work and I've got to look after the kids and you know core be my boyfriend after work or whatever it may be and so yeah it gets it gets buried under work obligations and all of these things but yeah art for me or you know a very important component of art to me is yeah trying to help us remember what we forget something I wrote last night you have to forgive the language because it's it's it's God infused and I have I can't find a word that holds as much weight that's so that's the only reason I use it more religious than any sense like it has that I get it wait to it mmm and it was only a child's heart can be weighed equally to gods because man's carries the baggage of shame mmm and that again is perfect reflection for me at a moment of validation cuz you're saying the same thing the only thing left to do is to put down this learned behavior put down this threat of shame and allow that innocence to come back mm-hmm and I think that's important for me is it's not gone anywhere it's just over in the corner afraid cowering waiting to be empowered I tried to just look at as all as children you know I just do that because once you kind of see us as kids which we are in many ways you know so the thing is like we get older where you might have more reasons to cry out loud but we can't you know we may have more reason to than we are children um and when you start looking at everybody so not in like a not in this sort of like intellectually superior way like all your children but no but just kind of like you know I'm a child like you're a kid like it kind of for one like when people do things you know or abhorrent or whatever like you can kind of you see it or for me anyway you can see where this is coming from it's like you know because you know sometimes the we are quite quickly saying it's just a bad person this is an evil person this is a hateful person it's all a scared person I understand you know or like maybe it's something like if you're not scared maybe it's like oh you're overcompensating because you know you feel inferior in this space I get that you know and it makes it easier to not judge and and not and no judgment doesn't mean condoning you know I think people often think that like you know to understand something is to condone something no but I think when we look at each other through our child stops there are always there um I think we're just easier on each other there's a an interesting conversation to be had about returning to the childlike innocence and a childlike nature but also about how that same innocence is too easily manipulated mm so how do we get to a point of where we reconcile the two so when you say manipulate in what sense they're saying well I'll speak about the context and where this fault came from other day I read an article about AI who's the guy from Google who runs Google is basically like we need to regulate this artificial intelligence because otherwise it's gonna get a place where we might not come back from it just got me thinking who programs AI mm-hmm I mean it's a scary idea you know you have to hold a republic you have to hold a council with with scientists but we've also priests and people who are ordained but also artists but also government and politicians and also children and I'm thinking we'll out if anyone was to do it out of them who would you pick and children for me is the one that that seems most the safest option but then I think no children are way too easily manipulated and then I think oh but my aim is to return to that childlike state but knowing that I can't because I have to keep one eye open for the people we're gonna try to manipulate that force you you raise a good point you know because sometimes I can be hopelessly naive in my interactions with other people I know if I don't have any ill intentions and sometimes I can make the mistake in thinking oh I would this person you know I'm being honest so why would they not and that's just not life so as much as we should cultivate some of the the better things of our more childlike nature you know again maybe it comes to this integration you know adulthood at least in its best form is just maturity it should be wisdom you know regardless of what age you are so it's like being a wise child like an understanding that not everybody is going to have your best interest because of their experiences in the way that they are viewing life and and doing that thing where you have to I don't know I don't like maybe the the connotation of saying something like protect your energy but maybe it is that thing of being cautious of your environment or wanting to protect your environment protect yourself it is something that we just have to do but that doesn't mean you know just because someone else could have you know questionable intentions it doesn't mean that we necessarily have to bring ourselves to their level you know but it just means that we kind of have the oh I see what you're doing okay cool I'm gonna leave you to that you know I'm just gonna do my thing you know I wish you well anyway you know but I don't think it has to bring out ah you know our worst nature mmm the first time as a child that you were shown anything other than this world of innocence anything that exists beyond this state of presence and I feel like so many things get in the way of that origin so many bad relationships so many hostile situations so many regrets so much shame so many diverted paths and people could spend the lifetime you know like get undoing all of that and getting back to that point of origin at that moment of where you're like oh I remember it comes with this shadow as Jung would say it comes with this because once you know what it was like you know why is not that way anymore and you have to reconcile it mmm they there's no other way that they have to live alongside each other and you have to have ownership of them both or none at all mm and that's uh that's more terrifying than any blank canvas facing them the shadow assume would say and and and and trying to integrate that and and really exploring like our dark ourselves is like probably the hardest job in the world which is probably why many people don't and maybe a reason why we live in a very less than ideal world um but again I for me at least it's the only it's the only real path of value to me because you know you get to a certain stage and maybe you recognize that you know money doesn't actually fulfill very much you know and having people know who you are doesn't really do anything and like oh I had something go viral it feels like nothing I'm numb still haha you know and all of these things that you think that you want you know you're like oh it's pretty empty you know so so what is it you know I think it's it might even be good to get to that place I think it's it's a critical place I think it's a critical place to get to you when you're just kind of like all of these things don't feel like anything you know because then you have to ask well what will and when you get to that place then it's like oh then you kind of start I think it puts you in this place and I think it can be quite a dark place for a while but it puts you in that dark place where you can start yeah really engaging with visualizing seeing the roots of you know your own shadow and then eventually getting to a place where you can ya can integrate that and and and move forward in a more balanced way and you don't necessarily and and I think in that space you realize like you know if it's nothing if none of these external things are gonna do it then what really matters is how I treat people you know and and what I put out into the world and and how I can encourage others because we're all we're all being encouraged to do something so I don't think cuz I'm someone who can sometimes think well why should I encourage anyone to do anything you know I can get really too lost in the abstract sometimes like and by me telling people what to do am i doing that thing that you know I don't want people to do but it's just kind of like you know if we're gonna be encouraged which we are by a multiple of things then why not push for something gratifying you know because a lot of the things that we're being told are a value I'm not gratifying I at least think this this process is gratifying is it's being able to truly connect to someone and talk to and even like we're doing beyond the surface you know because even if we don't see each other again for another four years it's kind of like but I I know you you know to some degree like I know you more than just like you know your name and what do you do like I know something that's quite precious to you you know and that's of value to me and we shared something yeah yeah something exists between us yeah yeah it is in these honest expression and an honest expression something is born in between the two of us mm-hmm not only does it live online for anybody else to experience but it's always there for us to just you know be able to look each other in the eyes and know that something on the other side of that is receiving yes that's a beautiful feeling as if that's not an incentive to start any kind of podcast or to have any conversation I mean it's scary because you know like superficially you know me but we have nothing common you know you're a white man I'm a black woman you know like and so I think people can get caught up in their identity group sometimes or maybe even their interest groups it's like well this is my thing you know I'm really passionate about football and she he or she's not into football so maybe we have nothing there you know or maybe because we are of different races you won't really get my jokes I won't really get yours so there's nothing there but I think when we get to will get beyond the superficial you know I am someone who really does think we have a lot more in common than we do a part once we remove Alou you know like all of the the stuff you know the programs the culture yes the culture for me that's a big one I did an episode in his podcast when I didn't really know what culture meant that was about like culture mm-hmm me more like what do you mean coming from the sort of scenes that I came from which when seems by mind I guess be TV okay cool crime scene yes I get those type of those type of circles where culture is the Holy Grail and then I never know what people mean by that I mean it's funny that you're saying that because you know it's the kind of running joke I have about things sometimes like the culture mmm you know anyway the culture in it's um it's a funny thing to me but I'm interested in in the culture please continue it's no different to a parent's conditioning why it's like where these shoes listen to this radio show or this presenter listen to this song promote this songs act promote this artists read these books have these conversations go to these clubs don't like these people don't wear that it's just another set of rules like it doesn't matter if it's grime music or or if it's a Donald Trump like it's still a set of values that you're subscribing to out of nothing really other than I need people to like me yeah and I've you know what it's it's really nice hearing you say that or refreshing hearing you say that because I've long been suspect of this LeCoultre thing you know like because you know we speak about like they've got protect the culture we do it for the culture you know and I find these I find these phrases really like but what do you mean a culture like and it's exactly that is because we're so locked into the culture and what that means to be a part of it and how to be a loyal member of that we broke ourselves off from so many other things so in many ways yeah I'll say the culture too because like hey it's I'm anything that limits like your potential you know and that tells you who you should be based on your age group and you know based on your ethnicity in your race like this is you know this is cancerous top in my opinion you know how many artists that we may have the exist in our so-called the culture who won't allow themselves to explore sounds that really move them because it's not what the culture does you know and and I think that some I think that's really devastating it doesn't promote freedom of four it doesn't promote individuality and for me the thing that the people that propagate the culture are the ones that are true individuals so a culture of grime gets built around someone like Skepta mmm or someone like Jamie or so or someone like Wiley or someone someone truly radical who wears what they want says what they want and makes what they want and then everybody else does the same yeah it's like this the comical scene out of Monty Python yeah where Jesus is like think for yourself it's like and they're like yes we must think he's like oh yes sir they're all worshipping at the altar of something other than themselves yeah yeah not going well Who am I mm-hmm just fitting into a puzzle and for me is I understand the necessity of a culture to build some kind of utopia you need a manifesto you need to be on the same page but it can't be a culture of individuality that's built on impersonation yes yes and fear yes most people's fear is be as bit not adhering to the culture or making something other than the culture it just doesn't it's not expansive right it's not evolutionary yeah I completely agree and and the problem is that it's it's hard to be an individual you know I think that's what I find for people and even maybe in myself I would never change I tried to be an individual as in I like what I like and I what I like is generally boring so most people around me you know and and the more boring it is to other people around me is the more sometimes I'm like oh I must really like this then because it's not there's no I'm not getting any validation for this I'm not getting any any sort of props kudos or anything for having these interests if anything they sometimes alienate me and but the problem is sometimes is that you know the ones who belong is quite punishing although it's very beautiful in many ways suit but it's punishing in that it will make us diminish who we are you fit into these things and that's why you know I I can't say if I'm honest like I've maybe for the last five or six years potentially longer you know I grew up on hiphop let's say that was like my first musical love and I can't say that I've been interested in the last six seven years apart for a few here and there in delving into that very much and there may be also this partly because like you know I you know I grew up where I was told that is what you listen to because of how I look also and it was popular at a time and and there is hip-hop is in my DNA in many ways and and I don't diminish its influence on me however you know a lot of it a lot of the mainstream at least from my lens in the way that I interpret it isn't counterculture in fact sometimes it's overtly pro-establishment as far as I see and I don't like things that are or I find them dangerous things that are overtly pro-establishment but projects this anti-establishment thing I I'm not interested in and I think yeah it's dangerous but just beyond that I've it just doesn't feel like people are allowing themselves to be individuals you know like you can get called all kinds of names in this society when you really start to think for yourself it's quite scary to do and even in history when people have done that we've often vilified them for it and you know they're only known after their death to be potentially a genius or a forward thinker or prophet yeah exactly so yeah I get why and especially in the climate that we now in live in sorry which is very unforgiving on people's so called mistakes yeah well I mean I'd probably rather be hung on a crucifix that I would be shamed online oh it has to live the rest of my days not being able to work well being able to make anything and not be respected and not be granted the opportunity to grow or change well I yeah it's it's a terrifying thing I mean I I think about it and speak about it a lot and you know there's so many people I hope but this doesn't exist because you know celebrities still work they still have it's like yeah that's the point it doesn't work on celebrities but it does people like you and I you know it does people without let's say any structural power war or like a major influence or a global influence it does and even if we can still work somewhere you know should we have to pick ourselves up off the floor and rock bottom you know in order to be able to do that should we be subjected to everybody viewing us through our worst mistakes and maybe sometimes or even mistakes things that people misunderstand true you know cuz they're not always mistakes I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't be fine if a long with that came an air of forgiveness right it would be fine if it was like pick me apart because we're trying to grow instead of it coming with let's make an example let's make this person a pariah let's make them the embodiment of everything that we pretend that we're not yeah yeah and the thing is for me like I always say you can't demand an apology because once you demand it it's just appeasing you mmm you know like apology is something that's given that will you know you don't have to be told to do it so I'm not really about public apologies for private mistakes something that I wrote on the way here was some artists reflect the times some artists perpetuate the times and some artists evolved the times what would you consider to be an evolutionary act for an artist you know now that we're all so public and we volunteer maybe quite personal aspects of our lives I think an artist now would really represent something evolutionary is if they were to remain some sense of privacy you know as in you know beyond their work you know your work is public of course you know we will consume it but beyond that if they can remind us the beauty of privacy the beauty of not being public the beauty of not feeling like you have to conform to the set rules of what it is to be an artist or a celebrity you know sometimes we we think about the Grammys and we might get mad about who's been snubbed or you know who hasn't been given their rightful props and I'm like I'd love it if a nice just like I don't give a about Grammy like you know as long as I can make my music and I have an audience you appreciate it and I can hopefully do this for life if you know things work out like award and and that means something to me because I think it's I'm not sure what it means if we we get into these things solely to kind of be validated by institutions we claim we dislike culture again right you know so I'd like it if there was a really like there was a really popular global arts just never went to these things this person was just infamous for just never ever going you know I think we we'd learned something from they they maybe they never spoke about why they didn't you know so it's all down soir you know it's part of the art even you know it's all down to our interpretation but I I think I would there's something in that but I think I would really value in terms of reorienting our our sense of what it means to make it so yeah I think that would be evolutionary is for an artists who reminders of the value of privacy and the value of not ranking their success on institutions that we all claim to be corrosive it's all a PR campaign mm-hmm you think after the Brits storms he doesn't go and sell another million albums because Island / or universe whoever he signed to put a bunch of promo behind the the Brits and he performed at the Brits it's just the carousel is just another bit of promotion cycle for these corporately owned pieces of work it's not about integrity it's not about merit mmm it's about let's just give it another platform to remind people that exists so they'll part with their money yeah so for me not being nominated as a mark of validation right yeah it means that you're on something else you're not owned by anybody nobody can profit from you and the stuff you're making people don't even fight can understand yeah so for me as though that's its I echoed that sentiment and again it's nice to hear you say that because you know it's not uh it's not a view I share very often with people because I you know I get it like we you know people want to be recognized for their work and and and what means or what is greater for some people then to be recognized by the highest by the highest sort of official body that recognizes film you know or recognizes music you know I understand that it's a milestone for many but what's a bigger milestone for me is just not giving a yeah be free from that need of a trophy yeah yeah yeah but you put it perfectly to be able to just go again he's enough of a reward let's talk about fashion mmm be interesting just to pick your brain and on fashion as an art form mmm I I distinguish between fashion and style and so fashion for me is that silikal thing that changes and you throw out after six months and you couldn't be caught dead wearing it okay people follow a trend culture again yeah right style is something different to me you know style is something that's quite timeless style is something that you may keep irrespective of the trend irrespective of the trend style also isn't just about clothing it's your point of view you know it's the way that you see the world is your conversation because I remember before I got into fashion you know I had this naive belief that like everybody who was really sort of eccentric with their style and everybody who paid it a lot of attention must just be an interesting person you know you quickly learn that's not the truth at once you get into once you get into this world but I thought it was communicating something about their values you know I thought it was communicating something about the way that they see the world but no for some people it's just I'm doing as I'm told you know so I was attracted to style for one because of something maybe that we can now call the culture which I couldn't fit into as a young you know let's say 10 12 upwards I was a woman who did not fit the feminine stereotype and that was uncomfortable for a little while and so I got to this point where you know I hope I like the thing that my brain can be fairly pragmatic like if I can't change a situation I'm like well how do I respond to this situation so I was never gonna be able to do something I could never be typically feminine in the way that the world recognizes so I just decided that I'm not going to do that I'm going to carve me you know and be what I want but in order to be comfortable with that I'm gonna make it interesting I hope you know at least gonna make it interesting by my own standards and that brought me into style so I was like if I can't be in your race and I'm just gonna create my own lane and in that I I developed a confidence you know like I was and what I noticed is that you know I'm a young black girl at this point and people are like they're coming up to me and what do you do everyone's just interested in me all of a sudden everyone thinks they must be someone and I thought wow is that what it takes you know and I realized something very fickle about the world but also something quite interesting and I was like well if this is all it takes for people to want to give me opportunities or maybe I could do this for other people you know maybe if I started styling people it would open up doors you know at the time British music wasn't in the place that we are in now and it didn't seem to have much travel beyond the UK and I thought you know maybe if it had more of a look you know maybe if it had something to it maybe that would expand it and it was almost maybe like a social experiment to myself too because I think everybody has style it's just something that we need to pull from ourselves and yeah it was that for me so it was never necessarily like my love of certain brands although I do have some brands I really admire and like or find interesting but it was never this need that you need to be here tutor in this and there is an element of fashion that is like that that where it's more advertising you know you can be a stylist but you have to use this brand you know because this brand has this deal with this magazine and blah blah blah blah so it kind of limits what you can do to some degree um but yeah I just wanted to give and I know that it gave me confidence in some wake it was made me more comfortable with being a non feminine woman in a world that has a certain idea about femininity well this idea of non feminine yes exactly is interesting yeah interesting that you you said well I'm not feminine so let me just create another facet of feminine yes exactly as opposed to maybe if it was now maybe you might have been like well then I must be a boy yes I you know what I I can't even lie like I would have I definitely went through a stage as a young person a very intense palpable like visceral stage of feeling like I was a boy very very very much so and I remember being young like I just want to be a boy I just want to be a boy because in my childhood brain everything felt easier for a boy you know just on very simple things like you know a kid is very preoccupied with having fun that's its you know that that's its priority so it was like well I can't climb trees if I'm in a skirt which means that this purse is having more fun than me you know that's not okay I want to do what he's doing you know so it'd be easier if I could wear if trousers were just my norm which then told me like I want to be a boy you know because I had different interests I wasn't really interested in Barbie I wasn't really interested in dolls and stuff like that I played PlayStation games like I was into sports and things like that I liked mountain bikes or whatever and because we live in a world that has such narrow definitions of gender I thought well it doesn't exist you know women can't be like me you know zoo you can't be like this thing you must be a boy it took me a long time to realize oh feminine it you can be anything like one you know like I can make feminine it see anything I define it yeah yeah exactly I mean in many ways I would say a woman who presents in non traditionally feminine ways is the pure form of femininity to me because it's not it's not culturally enforced you know and this some think about that that I think is quite beautiful to develop it for yourself you know which isn't to diminish traditional femininity but to have your sense of femininity come from you I think is also special equally as special and it's one that I resonate with more it's something that I remember about Sam Smith and he was like well I don't fit into all the things a man must be so so I'm now a woman or so it was something like that and binary I think yeah yeah yeah I'm not I'm not entirely sure member but all I remember was this feeling of like don't bow out of the class because you don't fit in go here is another variation of what masculine or what our man can be yeah yeah that's way less divisive or at least doesn't perpetuate the same stereotypes or the same divisions that confuse people you know to just like either jump to one side or the other or to not jump into a side at all is not expansive what evolutionary it doesn't mean it doesn't grow the spectrum of what a man can be or what a woman yeah in in many ways which is not to diminish how anybody feels but if we want to if we think that gender is limiting and shallow and narrow then how about we expand what it means to be male or female you know and so sometimes you know because at one point I did think to myself because in many ways I embody something that's a non-binary if you like and by that I mean in the literal sense like I don't I'm quite androgynous and my clothing is a mixture of men's and women's so just using that word in its literal sense but when I thought about is the now my identity I think for me it was more like well if I opt out or being a woman or saying I identify with being a woman should I say then I might be not anybody else but I might be by my own standards and principles reinforcing an idea of what it means to be woman I am saying to you other women who look like me yo you're not a woman in how would I mean like you're this other thing you know and I think for me the way that I see things is I think it's I think it's quite radical to broaden our definition of what a man can be I hate the many ways that we limit men you know I yeah I really find it suffocating in what ways you know what I'm really don't like the idea that a man can be emasculated because a woman can't really there's no there's no female equivalent of the word emasculation as such you know women can't be de femme in eyes I mean one may feel that way or maybe let's say if you don't cook so a some man he might say well you're not a real woman so there are different ideas of what makes a real woman but the idea that one a woman can feel robbed of her womanhood by something a man does doesn't quite exist but for me the idea that a man can feel emasculated by let's say maybe a woman who earns more than him or maybe he wants to be a stay-at-home father and so his friends and family are telling him you know well that's emasculating you know there are so many examples that I can give but to say that means masculinity is this really this really narrow thing you know it's this thing like they can be taken away from you it's not a it's not anything biological or social or maybe maybe that is the problem spiritual yeah yeah well spiritually exactly it's this set of ideas that you can be excommunicated from you know and so for me in the term emasculation says that I did says that our construction of masculine II is an idea you know it's not something this bound in spirit or bound is something that's real something true exactly it's not something true so if you can be emasculated which is to take away one's which is to take away a man's sense of maleness or lives underneath that then you know what's there what's that thing you know and does that mean this thing that you've been doing it you put it on I am really you know every time I see a really effeminate man I really think it's like ultimate strength to me in many ways because it's so hard to do that in our society it's everyone's telling you that that's the you know the opposite of being male how old were you when you felt like when you felt like you might be a boy since I was a child I never ate that's the thing so I really relate when I hear stories of kids feeling like you know they are not in the right body and so I can't if I'm honest I can't remember ever feeling like I know I was a girl maybe it lasted until it could have been fairly late if I'm honest fairly fairly late I'm 31 now and it may have really hit itself on head at maybe 26 well but it was less powerful at that point as in like so like I felt like I'm not really a woman but I don't have this slight desire to be a man although it might be more comfortable to be a band but I don't want to go through that whole procedure I can I can live you know like it's uncomfortable but I can live you know lots of life is uncomfortable I can bear it but when I saw people like transitioning and stuff like that I was just like yeah like I completely understand and I do understand but for me in everything that I am and do I want to try and get comfortable with you know as I am you know people want to fit in and one of the worst things that you can be these days is ordinary you know and by ordinary that means whatever the norm is so this is this is something again this interesting is we have this need to not be normal and not be ordinary at the exact same time we have a flourishing mental health crisis yeah so I don't want to be normal but I actually can't cope with what you mean yes like we're living in a state of schizophrenia I want to be strong but I can't be but this idea of appeasing to people who feel like they have mental health issues but because they want to break away from the danger of normality yeah the the the insanity of normality you and and and then all of these campaigns about met I don't know I just there's some real dissonance there in those two contradicting beliefs and it's so mental it's very it's it's like you know let's just say that I completely understand your your reason for calling this the dissonance you know between like they want to be an individual the fear of being an individual the recent surge in what we now call a mental health crisis the fact that we feel we feel like we can't really bear reality anymore in a myriad of ways they all seem to intersect you know and now all of a sudden it's everyone's job but your own to make you feel safe you know and I think that can be dangerous because if it's everybody else's job to make us feel safe then we might always perceive a threat mm you know because we don't know everybody's intentions which is only gonna exacerbate the mental health situation but you know one of the things that I just you know always think as a problem is we're not honest enough you know we're not honest enough and we can't say things because if we say certain things and you know people think we're hateful rather than wrong oh I just have a different reality you know people would more likely to say that you're evil you want them dead or you know something like that so we are pushing ourselves into an era of self censorship and self-censorship cannot be good for the mental health situation either mental health propaganda as I actually call it indicates that there's a normal way that your brain should be yes and for society that normality that comfortability which is actually quite insane which is actually anti human because any actual human being looks at society and wants to break away yeah of course because they realize this mass homogeny yeah of people and things and objects and happenings all into this one thing yeah we call civilization is not real yeah and it's all predicated on culture and a set of rules that we are dictated to us yeah that we have no sayin so respond in a sick way to an ill world is probably a sign of health you know Cyril you know it's a kind of to respond in a very I need to get away from this you know is a sign because this is as you may say like a this is a normalized insanity you know that's what we live in it's a very normal sense of insanity and yeah I think there is a problem with that but it's it's quite controversial to even dwell in this territory to say that you know well you know we're not we're not denying that you know there are brain chemistry's and there are maybe hereditary factors that can contribute to a person's ill health ill mental health however a lot of the ways that we respond to a very sick society are completely rational you know completely rational like why would you respond well so a society that only values you for your labor you know essentially like you and you were worthless without it like how how many of us reasonable meant to feel in such a situation and we don't often speak about that we only speak about mental health in terms of brain chemistry and you know and genes which is only one part of the story you know maybe people are responding to their surroundings or when I am depressed it's often because I'm resisting change mmm you know I'm resisting the fact that I've grown out of something I've become very accustomed to and resisting the fact that like the new space that I'm going into my alienate me you know my friends may not understand me there my family may not understand Mina and I'm gonna lose something and that's scary you know so it's resistance is the way that I understand a lot of my own mental health conditions because we haven't always had psychology we haven't always had like application we have medication that's the ones we haven't always had these things you know so I often think well how would I have how would we deal with it then you know like how well how would we think about these things you know maybe and you know lots of different cultures and especially within spiritual circles have a very different lens on mental health issues even things severe schizophrenia yeah well you you only have to go to Asia you go to Vietnam yeah yeah and then or read a story about someone in the East who has schizophrenia and their hallucinations are positive yeah they see angels guys spirits and friends Yeah right and here are who a schizophrenic so paranoid yeah yeah yeah so there's a there's a real cultural definition even to our illnesses yeah yeah which makes me think then this isn't coming from within yeah no exactly I've always found it really interesting especially around schizophrenia and sometimes bipolar that one of the so-called hallucinations that they have or one of the the voices that keeps coming into their mind is this sense of God you know all of a sudden God people who've never been religious before people who've never even maybe been spiritual all of a sudden either feel like God feel like God is telling them to do something and I just think it's and even if we think of someone like Kanye who has been said you know and I don't follow a lot of things well but I've heard stories that you know so people I think I've been saying recently that he is bipolar and he's going through all of these things and now all of a sudden he's come out you know a born-again Christian you know there is something you know people in those situations seem to search for something divine you know and some people will call that God you know maybe for other people they might turn to spirituality are they searching for it or are they experiencing they only have the cultural symbols that they have accessible to them exactly I went for it two maybe three or four week period where I genuinely thought I was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ I could not do anything everything I was seeing everything I was reading like all of my interactions were telling me that I was another conversation with someone and and they were like well you're trying to bring forth the truth who else would you feel like you know let's take Jesus as a literary character as a meta hero like he is every here's the truth embodied that's that's how he was sold that says who else would you feel like you're not gonna feel like you are you when you're trying to be something better than yourself so I another really good friend you had there yeah and I've got I've got a friend who who was institutionalized this time last year his uncle died so he went to Poland to live with his aunt E and then ended up just going on a mad one in Eastern Europe and it ended up in a mental asylum and has now come out and he phones me weekly and we speak about God and whatever that that means to both of us and he's very Western Christian man in the sky and now I understand it so I can speak in that language but for me is still this sense of this sublime spirit that each one of us possesses that is at every moment trying to be realized in every plant in every conversation in every coming together of lovers it's trying to be manifested in every moment and for me the schizophrenic sand the bipolars and the labels that we give those people that's all they're trying to do you can't when you're when you're inspired you can't help it mm-hmm it's using you and you'll be a use yeah yeah yeah man for some people that brings paranoia yeah some people that brings grand illusions or flow State yeah they create there are some people it brings flow but it's this is still it's the exact same force each and every time yeah it's not always an illness it's not always something born out of fear yeah it's not something that can always be explained or communicated yeah and for me to lead us back to our it's if if as paranoids gets a friend it can walk up to a painting and feel relief mmm and and see a mirror and be like wait a minute this person isn't crazy I'm looking at their work this person this I see myself and and similarly with with with normal people if they can look at somebody who who has an illness or they see as having an illness and thing well they do seem divinely inspired and it makes me very uncomfortable and I should probably think about why that is yeah no definitely definitely need a more holistic framework to look at mental illness because everything we are saying here right now is comically controversial because it shouldn't be you know because no one is discounting necessarily that people are going through things what we are only adding is that we should be able to look at these things from different perspectives and we should I you know have had a similar experience like you you know I lost my mind at one point and well I say I lost my mind and I mean that in the most beautiful sense the most beautiful and scary yeah yeah I literally lost the mind that had been controlling me do you know I had lost the the mind that told me this was that and this was this and this was that and it was both terrifying and thrilling you know like it was the best experience I've ever had I'm not someone who's has a natural affinity for drugs or takes drugs that kind of stuff is quite scary to me but this was drugs you know this experience was yeah this was what the drugs are trying yeah yeah exactly like this was that for months solid it was scary because you've never felt that way before you know so how how do you even put language to something like that you can't really be around people because everyone thinks you're weird all of a sudden and everyone thinks you are losing your mind and you are but it's not what you think you know and and I remember in that time I remember the Cee Lo Green song I think on nas box a man crazy yeah crazy and I was like I get this all of a sudden and that wasn't even a song I liked yeah yeah yeah exactly do you know and yeah I would say you know it was it was the best experience of my life although it was terrifying I won't diminish that it was scary because I didn't know how to contextualize it but and I had very freakish coincidence is probably very similar to you as well um but I've never been the same sense and that doesn't mean that it's been a bed of roses since it definitely hasn't you know these have been sawn my hardest years ever but I feel like I've learned so much and they've become so much softer you know as a result of going through that hardness and I like that I like that I like that I'm slow to judgement you know slow to corner ComNet condemnation you know there's things I don't like but I don't feel like it's my job to critique you specifically I think those ways you can critique things without having to talk to you without having to make you feel ashamed of who you are and that's what I try to do now yeah I mean you know you know arguably you know some people will say like you know some at least the most profound and prolific art that we have you know has been created by people who've been in those states because now when we use our present lens to analyze past artists van Gogh you know and lots of different types of people of that caliber you know I've heard people say or I've seen things that tried to frame Van Gogh's you know like oh they give him a diagnosis you know like you know he was bipolar he was this so yeah because there is a very hyper creative stage as well you you suddenly don't have really fear and about all of that stuff like you just want to push things out so ya know it's um yeah we need new ways to think and talk about mental health are is an example of how to soften yeah for me if anyone stepping up to a blank canvas regardless of your medium if that's the mantra that's gonna benefit you yeah you process your work your attachment to the process and everybody who comes into contact with that sure so thank you for leading me to that revelation and hopefully everybody else can take that on board I think that's a perfect place to wrap up yeah thank you so much for coming to chanting they're having me see you in four years yeah thank you so much for coming to chat and appreciate it you are awesome no that was fun yeah you know what it's so weird because like a comment we met first actually with Phil right yeah and I don't know how I knew but even before you told me about you know your four weeks thinking you with Jesus I don't know why I knew that about you really yeah I don't know it's not that you thought you were Jesus by knew that you had essentially what we call in the Western one lost your mind

Channel: So, You Wanna Be An Artist?

Views: 4,373

Rating: 4.9644446 out of 5

Keywords: sywbaa, so you wanna be an artist, ayishat akanbi, kane chattey, art, artist, conversation, podcast, best podcast, spirit, spirituality, god, jesus, creativity, style, fashion, london, truth, Jordan peterson, writer, author, cancel culture, Camille paglia, political correctness, sense making

Id: KruBVEmqpD8

Length: 75min 6sec (4506 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 02 2020