Keeping it Real with Ayishat Akanbi || The Psychology Podcast

[Music] welcome to the psychology podcast where we give you insights into the mind brain behavior and creativity I'm dr. Scott Barry Kaufman and in each episode I have a conversation with a guest he will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself others and the world I live in hopefully will also provide a glimpse into human possibility thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast I'm really excited to have Aisha a Khan be on the podcast today a combi is a writer and fashion stylist based in London personal reflection has guided her approach of reminding us of our commonalities instead of our differences not just for social awareness but also self-awareness a convey resists the black and white thinking that can lead to divisive socio-political discourse and is comfortable in the gray from identity to cancel culture race integrity locus the nature of groupthink and more she's determined to not let her work fall victim to the dogmatic script that discourages rationality and rewards reactivity ie show what just a pleasure to talk with you today already and we haven't even talked well we have so much to talk about there's there's no lack of topics things going on in the world today you know from a social scientist perspective I look at all the things going on and I just I'm craving and discussions with people with different perspectives and people who can bring just such great energy and compassion and thoughtfulness to the table such as you do but I wanted to start off before we dive into some of these specific topics I want to start off a little bit with your background because I think correct me if I'm wrong but I think we share some early childhood educational experiences that that weren't weren't so fun is that right yeah we do so I grew up and I definitely didn't think I would be doing anything but I'm doing now because I could barely write you know as in like my handwriting is terrible I think that was the first sign that alerted my teachers to some being a little different with my yeah just with the way that I was learning in a way that I was picking up things and so I had a lot of learning difficulties dyslexia been one of them ADHD being on spectrum although I didn't know that when I was in school that's something I found out in adulthood but you don't necessarily have to kind of know those things directly you feel them and it wasn't until I was maybe in the ninth grade so before the ninth grade I was in all of the bottom classes so for like math science and all the core subjects in English and then in the ninth grade I wrote a story and that story brought me to the top of the class and you know I remember getting an award and like they late they took me on like this special school trip and yeah that was the first time I had a push okay I asked you what the story was about I remember in school we had just been reading The Diary of Anne Frank and so I think I wrote about if I remember correctly and I might be wrong but it was definitely about a girl who didn't leave her room very much and I can't remember what it was about specifically or what happened but I grew up as an only child so you know I probably had a lot of time to think about what introspection was like and things like that so yeah it was something around that I was no a child too I still have an only child oh yeah I wonder what it is about us only children who had a learning disability who enjoy writing as our mode of expression all these things that I wonder what is about that that has that makes us both kind of have this contrarian bone in our bodies well I guess maybe it's about you know I mean I was always bored that was the thing I used to always say to my mom as a kid I was like I'm bored I'm bored and so I would always have to make my own fun you know I don't have to be a little bit more imaginative and I remember even having pet rocks and I would talk to you and give characters too so yeah I don't know there's something about having to explore your own inner world I think yeah there's something really interesting about that you said you were no a child but you you also you had an adopted brother you know something I'm a half-brother so my dad okay so I have a half-brother and he came to live with me at the age of 16 so I grew up majority of my childhood as an only child and then yeah my brother came when I was 16 gotcha and and he came out as gay yes he did yeah we know we both I'm not straight you know and we didn't ask you bothered with him over that yeah we did I mean mostly didn't because he came out first and I guess I was quite weirded out you know and I I guess I was quite weirded out you know maybe it was the shock and maybe because I I hadn't sort of explored you know honestly at least my own feelings around my sexuality and so you know might might my mum is Nigerian and my dad is too and then Muslim and so we come from a culture where that is far from the norm and is generally unacceptable and so eventually you know when I did come round and - accepting my own sexuality it was something he bonded over yeah immensely yeah and I I'm terribly sorry to hear he was he was murdered is that right in 2012 mmm so yeah that was you know that was a start of a real journey for me if I'm honest I think when my brother guy you know something any sort of was born you know and I think that was the sort of life long journey of like thinking about what it means to live I know I always say now I think if a death doesn't sort of like you know motivate the way we live especially someone close to you then you know it feels like to me that it's in vain yeah there's a filter you might be really interested in in positive psychology called post-traumatic growth and it tries to look at the different ways that we can grow creatively spiritually you know finding more meaning in our lives after a trauma Wow I think I've just I think I vaguely come across that word once before I think I tweeted it once I didn't know the concept but yeah it very much felt like that to me at the time it was a very sudden instant shot out of a lot of the ways that I had been thinking are you sure you know you have a lot of really good grasp of social and human dynamics a lot of your tweets you may not be familiar with the all the studies done but you still nail the point it which makes me kind of think what's the point of doing studies when we can just have you Xi's Twitter timeline that's a different story I need a job scientists need a job okay so yeah there's common theme that you have of what stops us from fulfilling our potential boy that resonates so deeply with you know with like my soul you know that's that's what I'm so curious about as well we have so much talent loss right and so many people are falling between the cracks what do you think are some of the the biggest barriers to people realize their potential I know it's a big question yeah it is a big question but a great question I think thank you yeah well I think you know it's I think the nature of belonging has something to do with it you know of course we all have the human urge to want to belong but the problem is with a lot of membership to the group you know whether it's a political group whether it can even be like a sports group or or anything like that is sometimes to have let's say a comfortable admission into the group you might have to minimize large parts of who you are you might have to hold back what you think um in order to just keep the peace the group might make you think that feeling certain ways are not okay and so that way you're discouraged from it I think also identity I think even identity can be one of the things that stops us from exploring our potential we may think because me we are black or male woman gay straight you know all of these things kind of come with a cultural code of what's acceptable and many of us that want to belong which is to fit in a very scared to deviate from that script because we don't really know what lays on the other side of that you know sort of following the path is it's what's recommended you know our parents did it and you know and so we have a bit more control there and so I think what stops us from experiencing or sort of exploring our potential is this fear of the unknown yeah I think that's part of it I mean that there's probably a lot more to you I think that we judge our feelings too much I think that's a big thing I think we're scared to be too self reflective because we may not like what's there and I think that's because we we're quick so just call you know something good or bad rather than just accept what is okay so yeah you know what a beautiful sentiment there and and call for self honesty this is something you've called for repeatedly it's a common theme in in your work is self honesty well let me ask you because you you're so interesting the sense like you're you work in fashion right you're you're a fashion stylist so how did you get interested in that as a topic and how in that field do you attempt to bring in some of these ideas that you have about about humans well you know I think the fashion styling through fairly alternative means it wasn't necessarily that I had a big love of fashion per se but I was very interested maybe psychologically I didn't know that at the time about style why do people wear what they wear you know so why did you pick this blue polish you're wearing for instance look at I'm interested in you know what that says about you or what you want Matt to communicate picta me it picked you right exactly this morning I was very interested in what weird community through our link you can almost think of what your outfit as your hello before you speak and so for me I I was always someone who was especially when I was younger I was a bit eccentric in my style and and that got me a lot of attention and it got me attention from people that I think I wouldn't normally come into contact so whether this was like you know artist types or whether this was like you know even business types you know people of different backgrounds and in races everyone you know kind of had some sort of interest in me they I didn't think would be there that wasn't for my presentation so I was interested in maybe how I can help artists music artists have a different appeal you know when I thought to myself you know what maybe if some of the artists in the UK had a different style and a different look maybe it would have a bit more of a universal appeal I realized that the way that we present ourselves can radically shift the doors that open and close and so I was interested in that I love that and have you gotten good receptive feedback from people in your field when you when you present some of your ideas yeah for sure I mean luckily not I've been I've been working for maybe over 10 years now and you know part of the process when I saw your original question was about self honesty and what I'm trying to do often is I think everybody has a style and I think sometimes we can be safe and sometimes we want to you know we just wanna we don't want to we don't want to stand out too much you know because we don't want to so much with what was set with our clothing but my aim and my practice is to try and help people pull out what's naturally there so it's not necessarily me telling you who you need to be but let's working together and pull out something a little bit more I don't know if the word is eye-catching but a little bit more personalized so it's about it's exploring it for self but through style I'd like to take a moment to talk about our sponsor of better health is there something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals for quite a lot of us right now drawing this coronavirus pandemic we are struggling with our most fundamental basic needs such as our needs for security connection and opportunities to master our work I think all of us could use some therapy right now I know I sure could which is why I've really been enjoying working with a 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ask you why I like is what is the impulse there is it is it because you don't want to be labeled you don't we put in a box you know is there like why do you avoid buzzwords well I think the right side of me is very interested in what words mean and if words are precise and so I think sometimes when there is a buzzword we can quickly say these things and we're not necessarily thinking about what they need you know so and also buzzwords are often attached to a political side you know so let's say I mean it fair enough we know we often say the word like virtue signaling now but you know when we do see we do say the word virtue signaling someone immediately can easily think of you as oh you're critiquing the left you know like they get oh yeah yeah they get attached to certain sides or let's say love works right snowflakes exactly or if someone was to say something like you know your language is violent you know then we might think of you know the type of activist you know and so I think when I write or speak or put something publicly I don't necessarily want people to be thinking of their associations I want people to be thinking of what I am saying um and also when you avoid buzzwords you really have to think about what you're saying you know it's not just so it's a kind of rely on the script and I think if we want to be honest and if we care about something I think we should be able to talk about those things in our own language yeah and you you invent new ways of describing things you've had this one phrase that you said to me yeah baby you didn't expect me to remember so much all the things you said but I really like this you said Scott I'm a political but engaged I thought that was super by the way you sound like the Queen you know that all my British impersonations sound like the Queen people used to make fun of in England when I lived in England about that but you said a you're a protocol but engaged well I thought that was super super interesting can you maybe talk a little bit about that eight political in a sense that you know I'm not so hearty politically interested but I'm interested in what forms our political ideologies or like what makes us what makes us gravitate maybe to aside and you know you know I see the issues that are happening maybe more socially I'm a bit more into let's say social issues maybe more so than the economic stuff but I am politically engaged in the sense that I am I see what's going on but I don't necessarily come from a side necessarily I just I tried to be on my side of curiosity and a side of humanity you know so and I think I've been quite lucky to you know have built up a following of people from both sides you know like I I see mad people retweeting me sometimes I see sure was ever mad people with matter in there and I got pipes I got some magical hours - yeah yeah it's interesting and you know I have some some liberals and progressives you know some Marxists you know all different Aryans you got some libertarians in there they love you yeah it's very interesting because generally speaking you know people are quite divided so I quite like not not needing to feel like I I have to take a side I know a lot of people would say that maybe lacks a backbone you know you decide because if you haven't been yeah some people I some people say that I think some people think the easy side but I sometimes think that maybe people are scared not to have a side damn drop the gauntlet there to drop the mic you know that's a really good point some people will say things like well there's a special place reserved in hell for those who are neutral I know that governor Newsom said that something along those lines about those who don't actively speak out about racism is it possible let me ask you something is it because I resonate with the not taking science part but I also can say at the same time that there are things that I'm against I'll show me - so for sure I know I know both of us folks show I'm in a bit of a silly mood today so all right so I'm just thinking you know because we're here on Sunday morning so you won't have it any other way so both so to explain to me how both things can simultaneously be true at the same time which is I love things that seem incompatible and making them integrate it and make sense so how can it be that we are people who don't like taking sides but we there are things were against so for instance I I mean I'm against the idea of race superiority I'm not a fan of that I'm a fan now is an understatement under Stephen that's why I'm laughing you know I'm really not a fan of that now in terms of the taking sides thing though you know I don't like to jump on a side and then like pile on a different side but I do believe that you know I am against that so anyway what are your thoughts on that yeah I mean I'm against racial superiority to of any sort I mean I often look at racial superiority in general as like I think you know and I have to really explore this a bit more but my sort of inclination is to think that racial superiority complexes are rooted in inferiority complexes and I think it's an overcompensation and so you can not necessarily let's say there's there's many ways to think about racism and to think about how we potentially combat racism or to not perpetuate racism that doesn't have anything to do with what we choose to post online you know I do I'm really scared about living in a world where what we post online is a symbolism of our own morality or lack of and so you know when people say you know that I don't know I mean to not have a site doesn't mean you're neutral you know it doesn't mean that you're neutral about these things it doesn't mean that you can't get any weight doesn't mean that you can't hungry doesn't mean that you can't give it a lot of thought Wow just blew my mind you're being kind no it's such a good point well I really am wondering how we can have more productive discussions about race particularly in the United States right now because I just don't know the situation in England and you maybe you can tell me in this situation in England but I'm wondering what are some of your thoughts on some really productive avenues for people to listen to each other for people to care about each other to show each other calm to show each other humanity do you have any thoughts on that yeah well again I think if we're gonna come to the conversation I think we need to be aware that yeah people may have ignorant sirs people may not know everything about your experience but that doesn't mean it's rooted in hate you know and so I don't think we always need to conflate ignorance and hate but a lot of us in the world are ignorant on a whole host of issues and people and the way other people are living you know a straight man may not know what it's like to be a you know a gay man you know and and all these other different sort of identities and so when we do speak we have to not assume in intent we have to recognize that we are all sharing the world however our experiences of that same world are radically different and so is let's say in your world view someone else as well for you let's say is shaped entirely maybe by the racial experiences that they've had you know which is why they know specifically that racism exists and it's palpable and it's daily then I think you have to kind of accept also that this other person who has whose race hasn't had to be an issue for them and that person may not even be white that could be another black person that could be a Southeast Asian person that could be many different people we have to accept that they also due to their experiences their world you were shaped by that you know and they don't have to cancel out each other oh can you lie real weren't on how they don't have to cancel on each other so just because let's say a black person at one black person might say they experience racism on a daily basis and someone else might say actually my race has been no issue for me you know that doesn't mean that you know this other person's experience of racism does not exist you know however it what we might think about instead is well maybe not everybody experiences it and so we might think about you know what is that is it about class you know is it about an area that you're living in is it about the people that you're mixing with you know is it can we maybe say broadly that everybody that you're going to come into contact with is innately going to be a racist if this person isn't experiencing and they're all experiencing in fact all sorry and so yeah I just think it's respecting that respecting that we all have different experiences of the world you know and I don't think it's fair to say that just because maybe someone hasn't experienced racism that they're lying all that there are traits huh well you know I mean I think most people who are a minority let's say within a majority of experience some form of discrimination you know but it might not be to the extent where they might feel oppressed you know I know lots of people like that for instance you know and even myself in London you know I've got a lot of black friends who would say that their lives have been colored by racism I no pun intended yes but I wouldn't say that mine has you know I'm writing that book you know why valid experiences today I'd like to talk about one of our sponsors Noom in psychology we know that getting in shape is not all about losing a specific amount of weight or reaching a magic number on the scale there are many reasons why someone might want to practice self-care for instance for me I really want to feel energized in a work to tackle the day I want to have a greater ability to stay focused not have my anxiety get in the way of reaching my highest priority goals deeply grounded in psychology new helps you understand why you make the choices that you make and gives you the tools to break bad habits and 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many times before on the podcast small steps can add up to big changes in your life so sign up for your trial today at n oom comm slash psychology what do you have to lose except your weight join in Oh om comm slash psychology to start your trial today that's n oh oh em calm slash psychology now back to the show so intersectionality let's talk about all your intersections here black not straights by the way I'm respecting the fact you said not straight you didn't say like lesbian you know oh yeah lesbian that's fine that's a black lesbian black woman how did I forget oh yeah I forget myself you almost regard that on yeah I guess you know what Scott I not be so strange and I don't mean this in a non-binary way but I don't really think of myself through my identity first you know so resonate with that I don't think this is the first time where I forgot that I'm a woman and you know and I don't mean that I'm trans either yeah which will be fine yeah we're of nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with that well you look so interesting because you don't think that your your personal life experiences match up necessarily to the stereotype of what someone would those identity intersections should have yeah I guess the thing about intersectionality is you know it's a theory right it's not very you know rough other than let's say a reality it's an interpretation of reality an interpretation of reality that doesn't mirror my experience I mean if we can say has has my sexuality ever been a problem in life yes it's been a problem when I was younger for my family can I say that my sexuality has been a problem professionally no at least not to my knowledge um I don't go outside and experience lots of homophobia I can't say that my my race has been something that I've noticed helping me back in any way know my womanhood and I know lots of other women who are just like me whether gay bisexual black and female and yep I think they could attest to the same thing and so you know that those bring up some interesting questions you know as to me you know or maybe it's just the fact that we're all different and maybe one theory doesn't fit all right and that's a good point and it brings up lots of issues with the sense like how much as society do we want to categorize suffering based on race so like white people don't suffer black people suffer if you're a woman and you're black you suffer even more it brings a lot of questions how much do we want to talk in those terms versus well everybody suffers is there an REM song about the [Music] it's probably quite profound it's truth where did I go where I just went somewhere but you know how how do we want to frame the issues do you want to do we want to just open it up to intrigue everyone like individuals like if we went if we were like full stop on treating just individuals as individuals then we would just treat every person in front of us on a case-by-case basis be like tell me all about your life you know like whoever you meet be like I want to know I want to know who you are you know as a person as an individual all your life experiences your pain your suffering your pleasure saying good things in your life and and really get to know a human before you bring into it all your preconceptions because oh they're they're white they must have it easier they're black or they must have it tough it's a question of how do we want to think about the world in a lot of ways right yeah I think it's too simplistic to suggest that you know one theory can explain everybody's experience I personally take people on a case-by-case basis I mean there are a lot of black people or ethnic minorities who don't want to be seen through the lens of oppression first you know they don't want to meet a stranger and the first thing what strangest scenes is their suffering I think that can be quite dehumanizing to a lot of people it might be empowering to other people because other people might feel like you recognize my pain you know right I don't know we always need right you know at least I don't know if everybody always needs someone to recognize their pain before they can find common ground you know I'm not sure about that it's something I've been thinking about a lot you know like why why would I need a stranger to recognize some of the hardships I faced I mean I would imagine over time we might get to know those things I might get to know those things about that person in this world but I wouldn't want someone to sue what my life has been because that can equally be offensive or wrong misguided and I can imagine if we would all do that with people that would also bring a lot of issues I think a lot of people would say that they feel that they aren't seen you know all of a sudden I think they would feel as live you know all their hard work to overcome a lot of their issues and setbacks means forgotten and while they can all their fall is all they're thought of as is their suffering I I don't think people necessarily are suffering but in past suffering yeah I think that's the I don't think that's the way that we want to or lots of us at least anyway I don't doubt that many people do but I don't think that's the way that we all want to be perceived it's it it's a very interesting question because I think about my early childhood experiences and how I want to definitely put that beyond I want to move beyond that I want to you know transcend being labeled as a stupid kid you know and I'm gonna be seen for what I do now and and and the work I do now I certainly don't want to be seen through the lens of oh wow well what you're doing is so good considering you were stupid like I don't want to be seen through that lens you know and so therefore I can bring that empathy to understanding how someone else through a racial lens might not want to be viewed necessarily through a racial lens so I hear what you're saying it but it do you see how it creates nuance and like deeper thought and discussions then then maybe some of the discussions were having about these topics yeah well I guess you know a lot of people would say on you know it's which is not a good place to have a lot of these discussions and I mean I know that we have them outside of Switzerland simply bleed out into journalism and words and think pieces but they're often inspired by Twitter they're often written knowing they're gonna go on Twitter and so people people I think on Twitter are incentivized to go for views and perceptions or well yeah well to use that sort of lack complexity because it's easier to process potentially it's it attracts a lot more attention maybe it's more exciting or more provocative but it's not it's not complete I would say it's an unfinished picture but we do I mean if we want to we want to give full dignity to a human beings life then I yeah you know I do too and so I personally I'm reluctant to see people through their suffering first because I think if you do that we're inviting people to to patronize us we're inviting people to sort of tiptoe around us and I don't know I I'm not sure if you can intellectually respect anybody you have to tiptoe around so let's talk about feminists because I think that the things are more nuanced and complex than what certain types of feminists how would their bringing to the table in the sense that it's all the fault of the patriarchy let's blame everything on the patriarchy yeah again these are really I'm almost I'm almost shocked that adults did think such a thing I'm only shocked that we can put everything in the world down to one group I find that painfully naive and over simplified it's just not true and I think if we think about our own lives our own experiences our experiences friends our experiences with our mothers our experiences in the workplace I think we know that this isn't true you know and I think what happens though is people are probably saying but men are worse so I think deep down maybe people know that of course women have their own issues because humans are not perfect so they have to have their own issues however I think we we don't want to talk about that because I think the idea is well we'll get to that once we dismantle the patriarchy so to speak you know I don't think a lot of mainstream third wave if you like feminists as they're often called or online feminists pop feminists there's a lot of ways to describe this type of thinking I think they run on the idea that let's bring down the big problem and then we'll work out their little problems but they're all problems you know or maybe we just accept that human nature is flawed and you know I don't know sometimes people seem reluctant to do that but I can't subscribe to the idea that you know our world is the way that it is solely because of men I do think that you know if there is surely you know as they call it a toxic form of masculinity you know which is just a type of masculinity that can be destructive there are definitely things that I would imagine are fairly corrosive in femininity you know whether that is and this is not all women just like you know let's say what they describe as toxic masculinity isn't for men but you know there are lots of women who see each other's competition for us there are you know a lot of the ideas around or a lot of the ways that we frame toxic masculinity can still be very attractive to some women you know there are some women who consider those traits that we call toxic to also be real masculinity you know we still have ideas about you know within women about what makes a real man that's quite a dangerous notion we have any notion about what makes a real man that means that we're not willing to accept variety and women men you know and that can be a dangerous idea so yeah I mean you know we don't get to live in a sick society you know without sort of inheriting some of this poison a lot of wisdom there there's a lot of wisdom there do so do you think the patriarchy exists it's not the sort of language that I use let's say are there more men in positions of power in the United States or in the UK it would appear so are women oppress and living in a sort of I don't know living may be in perpetual fear of men again and I I don't think every woman could say this knows um so again because I I like to be careful about the words that I used you know I think if we were living in a patriarchy I don't know we would be able to call it out so easily you know without any repercussion you know without any consequence without any imprisonment you know because there are places where you pay you know a heavy penalty for speaking out against certain things whether that's the government whether that's men whether that's changing a piece of clothing or taking off a piece of clothing or whatever it may be so you know even in Nigeria where my parents are from you know the way that let's say police would handle rape there is almost by not handling it at all you know that seems to be something that's quite oppressive and I know you know even in the United States I think rate this one of the hardest things to actually prosecute you know properly but at least you can go somewhere and someone will take you seriously you know I hear you and I've also have been looking into cases of men being raped and they're they're not taken seriously whatsoever yeah yeah they're not taken sealed I mean there's still a stigma for a man to even say such a thing because he you know the so even you know the concept even of emasculation you know I've always found this interesting that like if a man does or doesn't do something his in so you know his masculinity is taken away you know it's it's a I think there's something really worth thinking about that because women don't necessarily in the same way there isn't necessarily a word to just you know there isn't a word an equivalent I think - you weren't emasculation for women you know not in the same way however year so yeah there's lots of things that I think men experience that if they were to be honest about society at large things that they compromise something you know compromise something about how strong they are or how stoic they are and yeah and I think that's really destructive I'm excited to announce that the psychology podcast now has a patreon page you're gonna love our new exclusive episodes just for patreon subscribers there'll be a couple a month that only will be accessible if you subscribe through patreon also there will be all sorts of Tears that will give you the opportunity to not only access Pietra and only episodes but you also get an opportunity to join the community ask your own questions of new guests and even have a 30-minute Skype call with me each month also if we reach our monthly goal we will donate 10% of all proceeds to an organization dedicated to helping people with their mental health check out our patreon page today by going to patreon.com/scishow Spee a t r e n dot com slash psych podcast okay now back to the show I can see why you want to not use specific buzzwords but to actually articulate your thoughts as nuanced as possible without it being reduced to this of course I really do appreciate that about you so do you want to play a little game for the remaining time we have where I read some of your my favorite tweets of yours oh and you tell me what you think tell me do you still agree with the tweets and then you know what your elaborate or thoughts here's one anyone who loves you will gently tell you uncomfortable truths but those who want you dependent on them will aggressively tell you comfortable stories I agree with that yeah I agree with that I I do believe that you know when we love someone you know like our parents love us you know you know hopefully you know sometimes that happens you know they can be more honest for those than anybody else you know sometimes honesty isn't always that the gentlest under there honest then the honest for our well-being however when we want someone to believe in us by four months or you know sharing our narrative that person seems to have a vested interest in maintaining and narrative rather than exploring the truth I don't think they do it necessarily with I don't think they're conscious of it I can't even say that they're doing it consciously I don't think it's conscious a lot of the time I'm sure my conscious but I don't think coming from emotions yeah it's coming from emotions yeah I don't think they realize that's what's happening do and move on to another tweet yeah go straight okay isn't this fun are you having fun I want to ask you I know he's ever before because I I think sometimes I can come across vague so I guess it'd be it's nice to cleared up the truth is often offensive before it becomes liberating yeah very much I'm very scared about society's inability it seems to handle uncomfortable truths you know I'm very scared the society thinks the entire world is a safe space it's not at least not if you want to grow in the world and so yeah the truth is offensive even when we think about ourselves you know we learn things about ourselves and were like oh that's why he did that oh that's why I said that it's not comfortable it's unflattering and I think we need to take up more of an interest in one flattering truth truth hurts it downturns it does I'm sure many people have said this like a comment booing but you know I think someone said you know the truth will piss you off you know before a comment like I'm saying it woman paraphrasing but yeah it is it's annoying I think you're paraphrasing you're your own self no your prior tweet like someone said yeah okay cool it would be great if people could share their experiences without suggesting that everyone who shares their identity experiences the exact same thing which only validates the idea that people of a specific race are in some way all the same now we talked about that already and you made your point there about that did you want to live right on it anymore yeah or maybe grief on it you know the ideas that you know let's say in this moment right now I've seen messages like don't talk to blacks don't talk to your black friends reach out to your black friends asking your black friends about what happened on the weekend is traumatizing and I just don't know why someone doesn't say I find expression so I think it would just be easier if people spoke for themselves you know it's a very weird I mean you almost don't care people speaking entirely on or speaking exactly for their race in the same way that I am I'm used to seeing it with black people and I think it does exacerbate this idea that we're all the same you know and I think it's corrosive it seems like a cycle you know you know people to treat you all the same then you can't pout the idea that you're all the same you know to me I don't know it seems fairly basic logic and maybe I'm missing something in because it seems to be quite common sensical to me that you shouldn't oh it's not productive at least should I say to do that and that also works in terms of why it's not assuming that all whites have had the same experience of privilege right yeah no no I mean I I couldn't assume such a thing I think that's quite audacious for me to assume that if white person hands I mean again privilege isn't really an area that I spend much time in because life is a bit more complicated than that you know you may have white skin but you may not have education we may not have parents you may not have all sorts of things you may have grown up extremely poor I can't say that every white person is more privileged than me I don't know what I don't know what I'm saying about myself by my makings like the chrony so I guess all I would say technically they do have white privilege because of their skin color but I guess that's what someone would say is that it just it is a fact if you're have white skin you have white privilege I don't understand what thing well white provision what sense is in like okay they way they they would say that all else being equal that's a lot of things that we're ignoring but all else being equal it's it's it's better to be born with white skin in terms of how you'll be treated then black skin and that in of itself gives you the privilege that's I think how the argument goes then being born with white again you are let's say noticeably uneducated uncultured if you like you come from like a very rough part of town I can't save that let's say every white person is going to treat you like I can't say every white person is when you treat me the same I don't know how we know that I've had some done anyway I don't know how we know that every white person is going to be treated great because they have one skin I don't know what yeah I think it's why that argument goes all else being equal but I being equal sorry that's what you said it's being either um I mean I mean okay it's a lot of stuff to ignore though yeah yeah it is I mean okay I I guess I'm not quite willing and I'm not I mean people can have that sense of things in it works for you but I think it I think it slightly validates an inferiority complex in everybody else I think it says that yeah it says something that I'm not comfortable to to push to the world to young black people or to anybody who already may feel like the world may be against them it's just not really something I think is productive or helpful cool thanks for offering that perspective here's another tweet it is childish and manipulative to act as though disagreement means hatred they telling people to grow their effort yeah essentially grow up I mean that's something like I just wish I could say a lot of the times is just grow up you know like case we know it's not the case we're not that silly I believe in us more than that we know that all disagreement doesn't mean hey we know that we know that our beliefs are informed by religious background cultural background so it might be a sin let's say let's say the way someone someone's lifestyle the way someone does something might just be counter to what the religion says there are plenty of reasons as to why you disagree with someone and it doesn't mean we hate them you know and so I think this is a manipulative tactic because we live in like a reputation economy if you like and as soon as we label someone as hateful then we smear them and we can potentially sort of dangle their employment on a string they will back out of the conversation people will pile on them and it just seems it seems like a weak argument it seems like a weak manipulative I don't even know if I would call it childish because I don't know if some can do that immature not giving children enough credit I don't know yeah but it's definitely immature you know and immaturity can commit in any age group despite boy you've so many good tweets that it's just like which ones do I pick so many good ones despite what we're told we are all so much more than our identities and the worst things we've been through yeah we are we are so much more than our identities you know our race doesn't have to determine our thoughts our sexuality doesn't have to determine our interests having white skin doesn't have to determine how you view those who are not white and we're definitely a lot more than the worst things that we've been through it were in if we don't view ourselves by our worst behavior you know we often don't do that we don't think of ourselves we don't think you know what I like that one time I stole or you know one time I got angry and punched a wall or whatever it may be maybe the environment to someone most of us don't define ourselves by our worst actions so if we don't define ourselves by our worst actions why should we define ourselves by the worst things that we've been through if we also overcome the things that we've been through I just think there's way more ways that we can be interesting it seems like we have a double standard we don't judge ourselves by our ourselves when we judge other people by their ourselves exactly that oh you know I'm going to tweet that can I treat that again you know at that point I just does make a good point sbk made a good point made lots i retweet you today actually no are you serious well youtuber tweeted me whatever of course I did I retreated you about virtual psychologist you said this in like a moment for them you know because there's so one Packers friend to explore and I think that's right I mean that's how I mean I'm not a social psychologist but I'm looking at it and it's it's overwhelming the amount of things to explore yeah yeah it's really overwhelming and it also keeps you know social scientists busy exactly I was in social psychologist yes oh no that's fine that's fine absolutely it what keeps us off the streets streets or else I'd be up to no good I often think of just throwing it in and becoming a stand-up comedian or something that still talks about human nature but not through journal articles yeah space for that might be the only plate can be honest sorry yeah it might be the only place left right or we can be honest oh my gosh I just want to thank you so much for chatting with me in the psychology podcast and I could see you like my soul sister I don't know all the things that could be wrong with that statement but I could come from love when I say it so and I know about your soul I'm gonna be your skin color or a month I don't I get it you're my soul brother no one can tell me anything exactly exactly thanks again for the chat and I wish you all the best thank you I wish you all the best to have a great day thank you for having me thanks for listening to this episode of the psychology podcast if you'd like to react in some way to something you heard I encourage you to join in the discussion below also please out a rating and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to the psychology podcast youtube channel as we're really trying to increase our viewership on youtube thanks for being such a great supporter of this podcast and be sure to tune in next time for more on the mind brain behavior and creativity [Music] you [Music]

Channel: The Psychology Podcast

Views: 4,148

Keywords: psychology, podcast, Scott Barry Kaufman, Ayishat Akanbi

Id: S3YLVgvGW8E

Length: 59min 34sec (3574 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 02 2020