Cultish - Leaving the Hebrew Israelites - Pt. 1

all right welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the colts my name is jeremiah roberts i'm one of the co-hosts here i'm here as always with andrew the super sleuth of the show how are you doing my fellow sleuth hey i'm doing great man and i'm extremely excited for this episode because the person we're interviewing is actually one of our brothers that goes to our church yes god is good his providence is amazing right amen no absolutely and so oscar uh we you would talk with me a couple weeks ago and you just shared with me a little bit about your background you were in the hebrew israelites for 10 years very committed follower devotee all of the above and i remember we had lunch and just to kind of get a little bit in depth and i was like man we we just got to get you on to just kind of really unload share your heart because you got a lot to unravel yeah so man it's a pleasure to have you on yeah yeah i'm excited i'm excited to be on uh i've been uh looking forward to the opportunity and and i really thought um for some time that the lord would use my testimony in order to shed some light on you know on this false gospel yeah and uh i think it's really important and i'm happy to be able to do it yeah yeah definitely man so maybe we could start because i mean a lot of people have had perceptions of the hebrew slides typically you'll see like my my first time i heard about them i think it was just some video footage and there you have usually several men who are usually lined up they they're kind of they've got one or two bibles they're kind of sharing it back and forth with each other yeah you're talking as one who did that absolutely absolutely and usually sometimes they have almost like a rug set out and they have usually but on it they have just a lot of what they're trying to propagate as far as what they believe about who the true israel is all that sort of stuff and so i've always just been fascinated just because it seems to me that it's just something that has really exploded absolutely almost in the last really the last decade or so um in fact we're here in phoenix and i remember uh amari stoddemeyer who used to play for the phoenix suns he now is from my understanding he's a dedicated heber island as well too so yeah maybe we could start just from the very beginning of when it started so yeah you are until you're 28 now so you're you went in when you're 18. yeah so it was almost 10 years it's about eight and a half years okay okay yep so so at 18 um at 18 i my uncle had shared a dvd with me that he had got from another uncle that got it from like a like uh some kind of parade i guess they were out there passing out dvds and uh it was really intriguing to him it kind of fits some of the thoughts that he had already had some some kind of preconceived notions yeah um about um uh what i think what happens is black people because they feel disenfranchised and they feel this kind of burden of of this history of slavery and things in this country's civil rights movement yeah the the response to that is to uh look at themselves and see what is special about them and find some type of identity in something that kind of corresponds with uh you know a higher level of of uh their view for themselves but that makes sense yeah so that's why things like black keep the original lights and things like black muslims that's why it attracts so much of these people in these kind of positions so it was the same for me um i was going to church when i was younger and uh wasn't very i was intrigued by the bible but my family wasn't really church goers per se we went but it kind of stopped on sunday when we left right and um so when this came to me when my uncle brought it to me it just kind of fit it nudged right in with some of the things that i was already thinking about and answering some questions that i already had yeah so you also mentioned too when we had lunch that you grew up in a single-parent household right and that was your mom who raised you so in many ways you had you talked about how there is almost sort of this father hunger that really played a huge role absolutely in getting into the hebrew israelites can you talk about that yeah i think it goes back to identity you know you look at your father to kind of tell you who you are and right look at him and and kind of draw your identity from who he is and when that's lacking um you you tend to look elsewhere yeah um and not feeling uh an identity per se in the bible um just not having a proper understanding of the gospel um that's when this thing was able to come and sweep me off my feet and like give me place give me purpose give me an identity and uh it kind of like i said it just fit in right where there was a void it fit that void you know and uh gave me that identity and therefore i felt like gave me a purpose yeah yeah what would you say then uh when as you're getting into it the was there a level it was initially just the camaraderie of everyone giving yourself that unique sense of identity and sort of the camaraderie and the brotherhood that is there is there but as far as how did it work as far as just wanting that but also starting to get the their understandings and their beliefs essentially being discipled in the way of the hebrew israelites and getting a lot of the scriptures that we'll talk about is something that you might have read those previously maybe growing up in church or hearing those in passing but you started reading those in a very different light can you talk about totally different lens absolutely so coming into it uh like i said i i first became privy to the teachings through dvds right and that's a lot of how their proselytizing works uh it's due it's one thing i'll say is all the videos that i've watched from you guys colts they prost they they evangelize hard yeah right um and so that's the same thing with the black keeper israelites they're they're out on the street they're they're calling people uh to to this false gospel and so getting these dvds that was for a long time that was my only means of hearing the teachers teaching i'm sorry um was receiving dvds there was no actual congregation for a long time i would say about half of my time i would say about four years there was no congregating at all um i didn't know where anyone was at i didn't know how to congregate right there was dvds and during this time gcc was setting up in all these various cities elders based on people that go through their uh hebrew bible academy and you know they they correspond with these people and they raise up elders right in all these various different cities so at the time i was in michigan the time that i came to this knowledge into this this theology that's when they were actually setting up that church there so the elder in detroit we've been in it we were in it for the same amount of time right he was getting lifted up at that same time there was no congregation yeah you know what's funny too is that you think about how fast technology is evolving so even just 10 years ago the fact just dvds being handed out right right right anyone who was a gen z very younger like who had their iphone like what right just hand out dvds yeah like there was no youtube or anything they weren't using youtube or anything at that point eventually they were but it was very before that it was cassettes right passing them out you know right so this is what's also fascinating andrew any questions you have you can also jump in as well too but when you're talking about gcc so this is a this is the branch of the hebrew israelites that you you really got into i once that accumulated went from watching these dvds to eventually getting into this what they call it a fellowship or what do they what do they call their churches gfcc stands for gathering of christ church okay um but typically like the the the term that most of the hebrews use are camps so gocc would be one camp isu bk would be another camp iuic would be another camp um they don't typically use church though even though it's in their title that's they don't typically use that so they would usually say uh camp or organization right yeah yeah so where so like where did it all begin i mean so you got into this well let me ask you this so this is one of the many many branches so maybe you could explain to like what what's some of the reasons why there's so many different score it's why there's different so many different sects or scores of different we might call them like denominations or right not even that just people who believe they have the fullness right of the truth and they all think that right i have the truth this is the home yeah talk about that first okay um so like i s like i was saying earlier before we started recording there is this goes back to like late 18th century uh people teaching you know african slaves looking in the bible and corresponding their own experiences with that of israel right um now from that time you have you have a lot of different people that kind of that kind of build on the same theology but present day it comes down to a guy named wentworth arthur matthew he starts the a group called the um commandment keepers in 1919 right and the guy that is the father of isu bk who starts isubk which all of these groups branch from icubik he leaves the commandment keepers and he starts igbk in 1969. so initially he says 1919 1919 commandment keepers yeah what what state that was that originated in the united states in 1919 this guy was uh from the west indies but he uh was a uh immigrant to he lived in new york new york city which is also a reason why you see it explode so much because there's so many people there yeah um yep so new york city he starts this in 1919 and then um they are also very a lot closer to orthodox judaism right there's no they don't believe in christ they don't believe in christ's messiah so uh when this thing gets started the christ is not a part of it right christ gets added later right okay um so then you get to from when where arthur matthew get to a guy named abba bivins and abba bivins is who is considered the father of this present day blacky beers of light theology issue bk in 1969 and from that point on he appoints seven elders and these seven elders eventually they start to uh consider themselves to be um reincarnated figures from the bible i'm king david i'm king solomon i'm peter oh wow oh yeah um and that's where a lot of those divisions start so so what are some of the basic uh assumptions then uh like the foundation of the black hebrew israelites if we go from 1919 to 1969 like just uh so for listeners who aren't uh you know well-versed with what they believe like what are the foundation assumptions that they hold okay um foundationally what almost all of them would agree on is that blacks um latinos and native americans are true descendants of israel okay you know uh israel that has been dispersed throughout the four corners of the earth and you see a lot of that spoken above in the scripture and they point to that saying that that is us okay right um transatlantic slave trade is something that takes place starting around the 15 16 century and they would say that these africans that are taken from the ivory coast right are are are from a community of people that migrated there from the time of 70 a.d so 70 a.d happens all of these israelites disperse into africa okay this is their belief and they end up in the ivy coast and there's a distinction there's a very sharp distinction between africans who they consider to be hamitz and israelites or black people um who they consider to obviously be from shim right they make the that is not to be confused a lot of groups say they point to africans and they say they don't like them because they they believe that those are some of the people that uh propagated their their slavery you know they sold them into slavery as warring uh tribes so i would say that that's the really the fundamental belief is blacks um latinos and native americans are true israelites okay and all those promises in scripture pertain to them individually right wow so so upon the destruction of jerusalem and 70 a.d in the temple and they were dispersed out and that's how they okay interesting yeah wow yeah and so from there and that this would also explain a lot too when they when they go into uh the in deuteron deuteronomy when they talk about is is it deuteronomy 32 you're talking when we have lunch it was the deuteronomy 28 2018. yes yeah and this is where this is where they believe about the it was a a migration of slaves can you can you talk about that because this is this is one of those things too that i've when you're just sharing this with me this is the first time i've ever seen it through that lens right and this is just something and really whatever occult that you're dealing with there always is a language barrier so if you are while going about your merry day and there's a group out i remember being like i remember being out in michigan for my friend elliot's wedding and walking by and looking outside a window at a restaurant there they were doing their thing you know hand that bible back and forth yeah you go up to uh someone like that they are going to be viewing a bible any sort of bible passage that you would normally read in a typical light they read it very very differently totally different interpretations yeah using the same bible though for sure right um and and just to point to that really quick what they do and obviously we know it's proof texting but they point to isaiah 28 and 11 and they say the bible is to be interpreted uh what is this says uh precept upon precept precept upon precept line upon line hear a little there a little so that's that's kind of the way that they use the bible they jump around and we know that there's parallel text that we can use to you know give foundation to certain doctrines right but the way that they use it is not within context of the entirety of scripture right so they point to these few texts here and they build a whole doctrine on it without consenting to the you know the whole the whole work of scripture so um speaking about deuteronomy 28 deuteronomy 28 is i would say it their their theology hinges upon this hinge is about deuteronomy 28 because they would say okay we know in scripture israelites break the covenant right which is kind of weird because they're acting as if there's still that same covenant but they break this covenant and the curses for breaking the covenant are listed in deuteronomy 28 so what they would say is you look at the curses and look at who the curses apply to in the world and that's how you find out who the israelites are so they go through all of these curses um and there's many of them but the the biggest one will be 28 and 68 when it says you will be sent into egypt again with ships and so they would say egypt is the land of bondage it doesn't actually mean egypt right it's a figurative it's a figurative name and that actually means america um black people are sent into america which is egypt the land of bondage in ships right so that's what that's kind of how they believe wow i mean if you talk about history is there a reason why they focus in on on just america's because when you look at just the history of colonialism i mean you see slavery worldwide i mean you have a christian william wilberforce who is very adamant spoken out against the slave trade even and that's something that's totally outside the united states is that what's the reason for the focus in on america is that just because it started here the united states in the 1920s is that sort of that's one of them um they don't only focus on america they would they would point to south america as well the new world right it would really uh point to but not to say that there aren't people that that go into um europe and other places like that they'll look and they'll look at even some um like one of the tribes that they believe naphtali is hawaiians and simones you know people from new zealand so it's not just there but that's where it starts so that's where most of the focus is but they'll look at people from all corners of the earth and say that these people are israelites um indigenous people from australia you know they'll say that those israelites as well interest interesting question that i'm just thinking in my head uh right now is how how do they account for then uh let's say the destruction of temple in jerusalem 70 a.d then there's a dispersion that happens well what about history where you know there would have to be a gap like the gospel was lost or something was lost throughout this 1800 years all of a sudden until let's say the 18th century in and then into 1919 how do they account for that history right that missing piece i got you yeah when they go into africa right they would say that though they fell away they fell away from serving the lord properly right and and that we see in the curse or they believe that 70 a.d is a curse upon them right and that they fell away into idol worship right and that basically they lost their identity through that falling away into idol worship so that by the time they come to america they no longer but remember who they are right and then you add slavery onto that and it's totally wiping away um their identity right so i believe it's psalm chapter the psalm chapter and maybe i can't remember what the chapter but um it says let us blot them off from being a nation so that the name of israel may be no more and so basically they would believe that the whole world is under this conspiracy to hide the identity of israel from israelites see this see this is what i find really interesting too and i think about like uh flat earthers um like i i feel uh listening to some of the the things that i hear you know from the black hebrew israelites it's almost like the flat earth of a a christian cult in this sense i know a lot of flat earthers as well would claim to be christians but in terms of like history and that there's a grand conspiracy against absolutely it's very similar you have to like unlearn everything right in order to fit into the right and it seems to me they also they make a distinction that and and this is what this is uh what we're leading to is that eventually there's dialogue between uh james white a couple years ago took place in the dividing line between him and just tell me his name again recall yes so there was a conversation between them and i noticed in that dialogue and that conversation is that there seems to be almost this distinction or dualism between the real the real israelites and the history that's there but also this pagan this pagan christianity that's derived from the white man that's all derailed from pagan sources and so in many ways a lot of the typical claims and conspiracies there's just sort of pseudo-history that even when you see people that the new like knew it that new age referred to they appeal to that so the idea that we know we got all our idea our ideas from nimrod and and then you know talking about how easter's pagan christmas is pagan a lot it's just i found it fascinating that he was making those similar appeals yeah yeah it's uh it's been very it's very conspiratorial you know um in in the view of history if you noticed during that debate uh uh pastor james kept saying okay you need to give me sources yeah yes there are no sources though right they'll find a couple books here and there and then when he brought these books up pastor james was like man these aren't these aren't respected anywhere no scholars look at these books it's something that's respected uh one of them was the 13th tribe um and he's like no one considers that book to have any type of authority on the topic right um and then they go there's another book that he mentioned called the illuminati ii just some really some books that are really out there yeah right and they'll find these books and again they'll hinge doctrine on this stuff okay but it's really finding stuff in that stuff that already corresponds to what they believe right they have a they have a belief system they have all of these preconceived notions these presuppositions and they go and they look for stuff to correspond to it no that definitely makes sense in fact um this is what i was curious about as well too when it comes to like how they view ancient languages and this is a distinction that was made just again we're kind of just giving a very broad overview because there's so many areas that you can go in very deep and then then zoom out we're trying to get a brief overview so a lot of colts as well too there's sort of this almost this dogmatic we have to adhere to the king james uh version oh so interesting to me yeah so many of them are like that yeah yeah and so that's just my experience so even when i saw this like oh it's another one another group that's into the king james and i don't like reading it like occasionally it's just it's got some language that's very different from right how i talk it's athletic yeah it's very poetic you know and very shakespearean i guess yeah yeah as you would say but what's the distinct like what's the appeal to that because it seems to me that there would be because when you talk about oneness apostolic and the one is pentecostals at least they try on some level to go to the greek right or they're trying to explain their modalistic views and they they have it backwards where they go to the new testament and then take what's in the new back to the old right but at least they're going to the they're trying to make an argument from the original sources from the original languages in the greek but with this it seems to me like why why are they appealing to something written all these hundreds of years later versus the original source if or even hebrew since they are the true hebrews there's two points that i'll say on that one is they believe king james is a black man and they believe king james commissioned the translation uh from the greek and the hebrew in order to give the bible to true hebrew israelites and so that's the affinity one part of the affinity for the king james is that he's a black man we're going to read the one that he gave to us if you heard during that debate he kept saying this is our bible these are our scriptures right right they they lay claim to it and they say he's the one that gave it to us right um the other thing is when it comes down to language they they'll go into the language um a little bit but it's it's not any type of in-depth study um that's going to bring clarity um i would say uh the way that they view the king james is is the closest thing to the original language and that's why they subscribe to that you know and then when you start getting into other versions and iv esv they'll say that these are versions that were uh translated by people who are trying to hide the truth for them everything is conspiratorial you know okay so so for um group the the camp like uh it's geocc um for them there there's there's a term i'd like for you to address in terms of non-messianic and masonic i know you spoke about a little bit earlier in terms of gocc i know listening to that debate and he was talking uh that man was talking about how king james was a a black man i know there's other camps that don't hold to that view at all so but but the mainly the difference comes between being non-messianic and messianic can you explain that real quick and then and then explain what gocc does with jesus who jesus is specifically in relation to um the godhead absolutely okay so messianic and not messianic it's really comes down to the ones who are non-messianic are a lot closer to orthodox jewish faith and they and they handle the scriptures in a lot of the same way they just believe that they are a part of these chosen people but outside of that i would say they deal with it in a lot of the same way um the messiatic ones which gocc was messianic they uh interpret it they interpret scripture but they lean heavily on the old testament to give to give light to what the old testament is saying i mean the new testament is right right instead of how we look at the new testament and we interpret it from there the old testament they they would do the opposite they they read deuteronomy 28 into the new testament absolutely okay yeah just keep going right um and so as far as the figure of christ they would reject the trinity they would reject the immaculate conception virgin birth um they would reject christ uh divinity altogether right and i would say it's like um henotheistic it's like god the father okay and then christ and the holy spirit under him they're lesser lesser right right so uh i i don't know if you remember the word that he kept using was allah which is elohim and that's the language that they used that the variant of hebrew they would say allah right and they would say that christ is a power or christ is a god but not the god right and therefore he is not to be worshipped right that would be wicked and from their perspective right so if pastor jay points him to revelation chapter five when all all creation is worshiping christ and he's like yeah that's not really worship though they're really worshiping the father you know the son is just with him kind of thing or you point to thomas you know calling him you know uh my god you know they they they reject all of that thomas was scared right he was giving he was cursing right exactly exactly exactly right yeah so when they when so they view jesus and they see they saw they see jesus as as a black man as well too and this is what i'm curious about too is seize and also they mentioned like keem james are there are there other prominent figures in church history i mean typically in their worldview they would see anything that would be against their ideology as a conspiracy made up by by the white man to suppress the truth of who the real israelites were are there any other prominent figures do they believe that about the apostle paul or all the prominent figures all the prophets all biblical prophets all apostles all of these people are black people what about any other church fathers like augustine martin luther they don't even they don't deal with that right so they totally that and i think i see this one a lot of cops especially ones that subscribe to any type of biblical uh foundation they they separate from any type of authoritative teaching that comes before them so that they can have the last word in interpretation see if you start referencing guys like augustine right nick nation you start going to these early church fathers what you're going to have is people that are correcting your theology right right i was listening to uh to i think it was uh paul washer and he was talking about when he's interpreting a text he's like i go through all of the commentaries i go to all the early church fathers and i see what they say about these texts and if i'm the one that's wrong then i'm sticking out like a sore thumb then i'm probably not right about this all these guys are you know yeah they totally get away from any like that so there's no authority over them in the way that they interpret scripture they have the last word it's special revelation you know and to think like in their argument jerry they'd say well after 70 a.d it's like there was there was judgment that occurred and there were certain things that were lost and right now it's being reawakened to actually have the knowledge and the truth so they're just waking up now right and now line upon line precept upon right it's coming into the fullness of the truth of the the hebrew israelites now essentially all of that that whole history from 70d to early uh 20 or late 20th century all of that is pagan right that's that's pagan christianity the truth uh the biblical faith is only just now coming to fruition okay and so so going back to the person of jesus and their view of who jesus christ is so jesus christ was a black man he was a god and he's a god to be revered but not one to be specifically worshipped right they would say he's the son of god but he is not god himself okay so but would he in a sense would they believe in the incarnation is that there was a god who is fully god or fully man or what what do they believe about that and the virgin birth and mary they wouldn't say i i think they would reject saying that he's fully god they wouldn't use the term god with him right okay if you press them then they'll say okay he's a god but that's after president originally they would just say he is uh he's the son of god and that's the distinction that they'll make he's the word of god but that's not god himself right so they would they would they would only use that term god if they were pressed on it so pastor james presses him on it right and he eventually says well he is a god but he is not the god you know same with the holy spirit they would say the holy spirit is a feminine counterpart of the masculine father and the same thing a kind of a god a power is really the term that they use power right um a power but not the original source and he even said and after i watched this again i wasn't i didn't i didn't even pay attention to this the first time he even said that christ was created right that there was a time that christ didn't exist yeah so that would give some insight as to why they believe what they believe so so quick question for you so it's going to come to a surprise to many people but i'm a white guy anyways uh say say i'm listening to the hebrew israelites right right the messianic ones from the gocc and all of a sudden i'm i'm believing what they say right uh what what how is salvation offered to me right so since jesus is a god not god right is there um an aspect to where salvation can't really fully be for all peoples when uh specifically it's for certain tribes like there's a continuity that they're breathing from the old testament into the new testament in terms of skin color and tribe it's like how would it work for me as a white man if all of a sudden i wanted to be part of the gocc right so they would say that salve there's a hierarchy in salvation right okay it's not that other people some groups some groups would say no other people outside of israelites will be saved okay right um but gfcc in particular there's a hierarchy so they'll say christ only came for israel and they'll point to the scripture when christ says only come for the lost sheep the lost sheep of the house israel right don't say look this he said it right there and totally negate matthew right you know matthew 28 when he says go out and make disciples all the nations sheep not of this fold as well right yeah exactly many many many scriptures right um but they would say christ came for israel right and that israel is going to be made into a nation of kings and priests and this gets into their eschatology they say when christ comes back he's going to rule for a thousand years israel will rule with him reign with him as kings and priests and that all other nations of people who are saved will be servants in that a thousand year uh that that millennial reign so they have a greater salvation greater salvation and they will say we served here right we served in this in this world and therefore all gentiles are going to serve us in the next world wow yeah and so when you talk about them being kings and priests is that sort of carry over to why they where we we made a post our social media and usually if you type in hebrew israelites or black keepers lights on in the google search bar especially go to images you'll see all sorts of very elaborate colorful garb that that plays into that then absolutely that plays into that as well as to them just trying to get back to uh original uh clothing and it gets really out there there's nothing about it that's original but they get you know they look like power rangers out there so another another question i think it begs the question i think listeners would be thinking this too so for the non-messianic groups um what about the sacrificial system what about the levitical priesthood what about um the the temple what about all of those things right right right i'm not really sure about that that's been my question to actual jewish people as well is right if you don't believe in christ in in his ultimate fulfillment in the sacrifice yeah there's no temple you can't sacrifice i'm not really sure how how they reconcile that because once the temple falls you can't keep these commandments it's impossible you know so i'm not exactly sure what they do in that regard and how they kind of feel like they are in good standing with the lord if they're not obeying those laws you'd think you'd have to trace back your levitical priesthood right you have to follow the same laws that were given to moses yeah i'm not i'm not totally sure it's an interesting idea to think about that they have to do something with it right right they have to make sense of it somehow oh wait okay maybe maybe it goes back to like you were telling us uh earlier which maybe you can talk about this in terms of the chart that says which tribe they are from maybe they use something like that to say this sect of people right here right from this and that is messianic ones though oh non-music wow right right so how about them um hebrew israelites they will have a chart and they'll say like uh black people are from judah puerto rican people are from ephraim cuban people are from nasa um pacific islanders are naftali and they go through these 12 tribes and they point to specific people in the world today and and how they uh fit into this to this you know this tribal system um and they then they go to genesis 49 and try to make sense of it uh mexican people are isocar um and they'll say that white people are [ __ ] which will kind of explain this tension between what they would say this tension between black and white people like slavery and all of that yeah that points to the tension between esau and jacob in the bible and how this has always been that same tension it's never gone anywhere yeah even throughout their posterity they're still upholding that same tension you know believe in that uh jacob stole the birthright and edomite is mad about it he's surprising him throughout all of history he's suppressing him for that same thing no i feel like this i'm gonna i'm i'm sort of going down the very ed the educational rabbit hole right you know all things like this is fascinating man so another thing too is that so they do believe jesus died on a cross right and do they believe in the resurrection they rose from that three days later yeah they believe uh they do believe that but then they don't but they don't believe in sunday worship right right they they they hold to the sabbath so he so they believe it they worship on saturday similar to seventh-day adventists right right sunday's a pagan day to worship that's when the nimrodian religions worshipped absolutely we've kind of sort of elaborated a little bit of their of their idea of salvation but what do they believe was accomplished on the cross when christ went there i mean as christians we would have the answer for that but in regards to finding defining terms right when jesus christ goes to the cross he dies in the accounts of all the gospels if i'm talking if i just go if we if i went out tomorrow and they're out on mill avenue over here and they're talking i bring up start talking about christ crucified what's the mindset of someone like that you were for 10 years right this well this is interesting one is election they believe in election but that election is israel right right that is god's elect uh israelites that's one number two um when it comes to the death and resurrection of christ what's interesting is that their gospel when they're out proselytizing they're not preaching the gospel they're not preaching christ die for your sins you're a sinner before holy god you know repent and believe that's not the gospel their gospel is who is your father these nations these nations of people are the original uh people of israel return to the law so that you might be saved wow right that's the gospel the gospel you're going to get to christ they talk about christ it'll be later it won't be in that original spill that they give you right wow so christ dying on the cross and resurrecting right and his death being for the remission of sins what's interesting about that is there's no talk of regeneration right there's no talk of dying to self and living in christ they don't talk like that they don't feel like they need to die to themselves right they feel like they need to be restored to their former glory right so christ dies and they believe him to be a savior but again that is primarily for israel only secondarily for anyone else right but there's no they don't really dig into that though right really the gospel is who you are your bloodline even though the bible tells us not to strive in genealogy that's right wow yeah so in other words that christ in their world view is that christ died in order to give them their uh bring them back to their origin their true identity right as a true israelite absolutely and in the breaking of the covenant that took place that's what he died for only the breaking of the they they would say the covenant is with israel and therefore only israel needs a savior because the law is only given to israel so israel broke the covenant and so christ only came for those who broke that cup okay so just a quick question too uh which which covenant are we talking about uh in terms of the covenant that was broken when when moses leads the israelites out of egypt and they're about to go into the promised land and then they send out okay they they have the spies and then they're scared and they want to go back right there's no thought of like uh an adamic covenant there's no thought of a covenant of works prior to moses they don't they don't deal with that that's why that book was so interesting that we were reading and you heard the questions i was asking yeah yeah yeah because that's digging into covenant theology and they have no concept of that okay they don't have an understanding that there is a a broken covenant prior to moses okay right so that's kind of what it comes down to no as you said earlier both uh andrew and i we are as uh i think we're as about as edomite as you can get yeah so but but when it comes to the theology wise like i would be viewed as an edomite so when it comes to christ uh the the christ of the hebrew israelites this false christ and he's there to give their identity as the as the as being part of the these authentic true hebrew israelites or the true israelites but here we are outs really [ __ ] or even gentiles or really almost how jews would view samaritans absolutely uh back in the in in new testament times that's actually what they would point to yeah by the way that's what they would be i would but the way they will say look look christ called her a dog right and that kind of goes into the the verbiage that they use for gentiles if you remember during that conversation that recall has with what pastor james he kept saying gentile very derogatory he meant it in a derogatory yeah you know so yeah that would kind of go into that language and kind of this this overall view of [ __ ] as as an enemy of the nation of israel yeah and so can can i as a idol might be saved only if you acknowledge that i am an israelite and you come under subjection to me as an authority hmm yeah that's a otherwise yes you're living a lie and when christ comes back he's gonna come to save israel and exact punishment on all those people who did not acknowledge you know who the people were and come under that subjection yeah so here's here's what's interesting too is that i remember you know one of the things that i love when pastor james talks about that how the early christians when they shared the lord's supper together that you had people from you know like the movie characters you would have had like maximus right you know leonidas right right uh like ragnar lothbrok like the pagan like nordic viking right like all these people there all this tribalism where they were you know they all did terrible things to each other but they were all they're seeing all equals under the table of christ it seems that however that even if i was this is just my conjecture you can correct me if i'm wrong but it seems that if i were to agree to the terms uh sign the contract and make myself in subjugation to that i even with my acknowledgement of that and that now being my identity we still wouldn't be seen as equals i would be seen still even with with full submission now obviously i would be seen in subjugation due to the color of my skin correct you could never teach you could never have any type of authoritative position in in the in the congregation of the church there would be no equality in that sense you could you could partake um but you could never you know uh be in any you know any eldership or deacon you could never do that it's almost like you're in preparation to serve exactly when salvation is when the millennial reign occurs absolutely um i have a question so what what does the gocc just because we're speaking messianic camp specifically what do they do with the letters of paul like for example because it seems like well i know that they they read the old testament into the news there's probably a lens they interpret paul through but it's hard to read paul any differently like in ephesians 3 he talks about the mystery of christ i'm just going to read it real quick and put your black hebrew israelite lens on right it says when you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of christ which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit this mystery is that the gentiles are fellow heirs members of the same body and partakers of the promised in jesus christ jesus through the gospel of this gospel i was made a minister according to the gifts of god's grace which was given me by the working of his power right same body right same body okay now i'm going to tell you what they do with this okay they would considered almost all of the references to gentiles in the epistles in the new testament to be israelites that had fallen away that have been that have been um um you know they've they've merged into these other cultures oh okay so hellenistic hellenistic jews exactly okay so that they're gentiles according to the flesh right and so that they need to be reawakened spiritual gentiles they're just gentiles of the flesh right they're they're okay they're not actually gentiles but they live like gentiles and so therefore the the epistles are addressing these people who are actually jews but are living like gentiles that's a stretch but okay wow yeah all right that's what that's their answer that's how they get into it all right so i got a question too you're talking you're reading from ephesians i was thinking about how they i'm trying to get i'm trying to grasp the mindset of how they think you know you say a word i'm going to think of one thing like paul a bond servant of christ jesus immediately the idea of bond servants even the slavery that's mentioned in the new testament they're going to have a different way they view it so i mean look at like philemon like that story like how like how does a hebrew israelite would you look at something like philemon and did you have a mindset and how you'd interpret that when you're in the hebrew slide so what does that look like you mean as far as are you saying as far as like history goes in the way that they view like slavery yeah but also just when in the new testament when with just the the terms of verbiage and you also you have all of philemon is regarding someone who is a slave right right but then also you have the terms you know a slave of christ you know slaves of sin slaves the christ right i'm trying to think of like that would be a word that a hebrew israelite if i'm having a discussion with them they're going to view that very differently versus myself who would view that they're not going to have a whole lot they're not going to speak about that too much as far as being slaves to christ but um they would acknowledge that christ is a king but they would more so look at themselves as you know what the scripture says fellow heirs followers yeah right but but the word slave they're not going to really look at themselves in that way you know there's a there's a there's a a lot of baggage that comes with that word especially for black people so that's something they're trying to stay away from yeah but again when it comes down they would look at that and probably um look at a means by which they're going to rule over other nations and they'll say we're not going to be bad masters right so slavery is not going to be bad for the gentiles that are in the millennial reign right because we're going to be good masters right so they would say it would be different from slavery that had taken place throughout history especially the translating slave trade wow so they take versus like in colossians chapter four masters treat your bond servants justly and fairly knowing that you also have a master in heaven right exactly they'll say they'll say the people that had us enslaved they did not but when christ returns we will right so in other words they will they will rule over the [ __ ] but they're going to rule over in a just way versus the unjust way right okay be the slave trade wow that's that's incredible so yeah i mean there's a lot there's i mean there's there's so much to unravel here i'm trying i'm trying to think of where of where to jump from here so you obviously grew up in this and there was a while where i don't know do you have any unique stories of when you went out to evangelize or just some interactions i mean just give me some examples of what that was like yeah so evangelizing on the street um you know out there with a bible and someone's saying read and then another person is yelling and you know yeah i've done all of that you know i've done all of that and um i mean i don't think i have any stories per se um in particular but just the means the thing that always caught my attention uh regarding that is just how how prevalent they are in doing so right and how what it's doing is if people don't have a proper understanding of the gospel right again it's filling a void so so i would say black people when they look at slavery and they look at civil rights movement and things like that they'll say okay the people who are teaching me the bible are not making sense of this event in history right they're not they're not um they're not touching on these topics to bring clarity as to why this might have happened right so this there was a there's actually a rapper who who was a christian and who had just recently he had acknowledged himself to be a black people i think what's the guy's name i think i think i've heard of him in passing um his name is uh ishaan burgundy do you know yes i've heard yeah yeah and he's just full-blown going to you know hebrews or light theology now um i think a huge part of that a huge part of that is not understanding god's sovereignty they have no concept of calvinism at all right um so when we look at god's sovereignty we see that all things are working together you know for those who are called according to his purpose you know there's not a concept of that and it's in part of that is because they have they have uh compartmentalized who the elect of god is right so it can't it can encompass all of these things that are happening throughout world history only to them and so because that's the question that needs to be answered why are these things happening why are these people in a certain kind of position this comes and gives a quick easy answer for them and it doesn't they don't have to leave the bible in order to get clarity on it right a lot of black people grow up on the bible right um and what you have in like the 90s is or the 60s up until the 90s yes black muslims right but it's getting you away from the bible right hebrew israelites why i think this false gospel is so dangerous is because they're like no keep your bible we're just going to tell you how to understand it you already got a bible yeah right now you are the people of the bible you are the people of this book this is what gives you this proud this gives you this identity right and it and it turns the scriptures into a means of puffing you up right instead of instead of uplifting christ you know that the holiness of god the the your the sinfulness of your sin and the sufficiency of christ is all about puffing you up now right that's what i was just kind of thinking in my head was there's got to be the concept of sin must be something that's not really grasped grasped very well it's more of like uh looking through the lens of your dna right not necessarily equality through sin like we're all sinners you know we've we fell through adam and eve so therefore we're all related at the right right right by adam and eve you know i think god just chose a group of people the israelites to why because he's sovereign and that's where the messiah was going to come from who then unites all people through the blood of jesus christ going back to this adam and eve like state right right like there's none of that no no you have this federalism in adam and now all men falling at him right and there's a distinction in that they don't understand that all are dead in adam right they don't get that so then when christ comes and he says you know through one man death came and through another you know this the salvation is coming through christ there's a total lack of understanding there right and again it's it's because they're not pointing back to original sin they're looking at moses as really the part that that mosaic covenant is where sin really becomes what it is right not adam you understand what i'm saying so so are they would they would they say they're sinners after they um you know after the the messianic group they're saved by christ let's say but would they say they're still sinners in need of god and his they wouldn't say necessarily god but a god in the sacrifice right what they would say this is interesting too because this differs for some groups some groups will tell you like when i was out evangelizing and i ran into that group they would one guy told me he hadn't sinned in three years okay i haven't seen in three years and and this is based off of uh what they read in the law right now a greater understanding of what sin is and when christ is getting into it the heart of the matter you know all of these issues they flow out of the heart there's no real concept of that okay right sin down to the to the to the core down to the heart the heart is the problem we need a new one right it's more so outward workings of the law that would det that will determine you to be righteous or a sinner right so you could have been a sinner in the past but you could be you know free from sin for for quite a while you know until you maybe fall again and then and then it's really like it's like i do it until until i fall short and then christ does the rest right crisis plan b okay right when i can't be righteous in and of myself christ you know i tagged him in at that point yeah okay yeah and it's definitely i mean this is also i think one of the things when you're talking just about where it is just even culturally right now i just think the appeal of hebrew israelites especially because i mean where i mean especially if you watch the news even with things that happen in 2020 i mean i can only imagine with how they would perceive and would use something like the murder of george george floyd um and just seeing how they would use that to give continue to propagate their idea of the hebrew israelite gospel and again that whole story of george floyd is very important to have a discussion like what does real authentic justice look like for that now just thinking i just i was reminded of that because i believe the trial for the police officer one of these officers yeah yeah it's going on right now so that that's just an example too like you have historically colts uh have gone and taken advantage of times of uncertainty uh you know one of our very first episodes we ever did on jim jones okay that he was all about he was very prominent and kind of really used a lot was of what was going on in the civil rights movement in the civil rights era to really advocate for his idea of social justice absolutely which is just one of those things when you have an idea of justice dealing with reliance bears of gods we look at we look at all these problems going on like these are real problems that need that need the gospel they need to be fixed but then you have something that is just uh you have someone taking advantage of it and and slipping in a false gospel that's poisonous and dangerous um so yeah in many ways it's very it's very important to deal with that for sure so uh what we're gonna go ahead and do is uh we're gonna go to wrap up part one i feel like we did a broad overview so maybe we're gonna go a little more in deep because really that was part of your life for eight and a half years you eventually got out and there was things that maybe because a lot of people want to know how to answer their different claims but those answers i think were part of the process of you leaving absolutely so we'll talk about that and whatever else comes to our mind so uh this is part one of a very uh a sky overview this is the drone cam yeah there's so much of it yeah i always think like their theology is like a mile long yes it's this deep yeah you know i mean it's not very deep but it's but it's a lot to overlook yeah yeah all right well if you guys enjoyed the first part of this episode this uh really kind of focused on an overview really a sky overview of the hebrew israelites definitely uh sharing our social media leave us a comment let us know what you liked and definitely appreciate you supporting cultish and as always this program cannot continue without your support so if you feel led to donate and allow conversations like this to be a part of your everyday tuesday go to thecultureshow.com you can go to the donate tab you can donate one time and or monthly and if you choose to do so thank you so much for that and we're very blessed by that so all that being said we'll talk to you guys in part two where we uh talked about the hebrew israelites and yeah talk to you guys soon

Channel: Apologia Studios

Views: 86,344

Keywords: jeff durbin, apologia studios, apologia church, hebrew israelites, black hebrew israelites, james white hebrew israelites, james white elder hebrew israelite, hebrew israelites vs women, hebrew israelites debate, black hebrew israelites passover, vocab malone hebrew israelites, hebrew israelites vs gino jennings, hebrew israelites united in christ, hebrew israelites times square, hebrew israelites dancing, hebrew israelites multiple wives, hebrew israelites interview

Id: FZ5Ndbw6KEo

Length: 51min 16sec (3076 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 10 2021