Crucial Conversations 047 | 3 Things I Heard About Lutherans, Part 1 w/ Matt Whitman and Will Weedon

well good afternoon good evening good morning everyone I am Peter I'm Kevin still Kevin we're not alone here today there's something different going on isn't there we also sound better than usual I wasn't gonna mention that part we don't want to set expectations too high book we are not alone there are other people in the room with us and this is different than usual so first person has been on this podcast before pester will Whedon you can say hi now I now know that worked okay perfect it so so if you've been listening to us you know who pastor Whedon is he's been on here before we like pastor Whedon there's also somebody else joining us that we like today Matt say hi hi if that's all I have to do today I feel like I've kind of landed the plane here we're on all right perfect you did well that was their line okay that's as scripted as we have been for this show and we're gonna get right into it so this is Crucial Conversations from crucial productions and okay so our tagline is teaching you Christianity so you can pass it on that's what we do but Matt does his own thing Matt tell us what what it is that you do cuz you've got some cool stuff going on and feel free to tell us why you're in town today - yep sure I do a thing called the ten minute Bible our it's mostly a YouTube channel but occasionally I podcast with it as well and I guess is kind of the same idea is what you're doing some of what I do is processing through books of the Bible in short videos that I I at least think are funny I don't get the impression from the comments that anyone else has ever laughed at any of it but I have my tube had a laugh emoji instead of just a thumbs-up or thumbs-down I'm sure you'd have a few I mean it's many times as I can hit refresh I like my own jokes so I did that kind of a through the Bible teaching thing and then theology church history stuff like that I have a series and I'm working on right now called nuts and bolts of the Bible or explain where that came from how happened and try to do in a way where you just get one uniform data set people might disagree about what to exactly do with the Bible or its contents but it's ready it's like hey this is how it got here one way or another sure that's how it showed up on your lap their church yeah and then I'm here because I'm doing this series where I go around to churches that aren't my church and point at things like a child and ask what that means and what's going on and how does your church work sure yeah which is fun which which also means you have the honor dubious distinction of being the first non Lutheran on our podcast what you're not a Lutheran right no I know no not so I'm not anti Lutheran either I don't feel like we're in a fight we'll see what happens after this episode yeah well I don't give me Jesus yeah well we'll get you there well that's actually part of what we're gonna talk about today because there we're all perceived in different ways sure by people who are not in our group wait I think tribe is like the cool term nowadays Kevin can we say tribe tribe that's what the cool kit no okay we're not the cool kids so we're not gonna say tribe but if you're not in the group there are perceptions that people have of you from outside that group sure we're going to talk about that today and you are going to provide us with some perspective right is that what we're doing I just put on this thing and you're like sit there and then look you walk down the street you made eye contact and I said let's go that's I mean it was passing eye contact I quickly went back to my shoes that's all I need no I think that I think that would be fun yeah that's kind of what's been cool about this whole series that I'm doing is you hear all kinds of things about other groups from people within your own group some of it turns out to be kind of true ish a lot of it turns out to be oh well when somebody who actually thinks it says it that makes a lot more sense yep and so yeah I'm happy to share my ignorance or warped perceptions did at will well Kevin one of the things you and I have done we've spent quite a bit of time on with this podcast is trying to talk about things differently because we're at least somewhat aware that people don't understand us and that we're weird quite as individuals and also as Lutheran's yeah it's not mutually exclusive yeah weird both as individuals and as Lutheran's so it's kind of a natural move for us to have Matt come and talk to us about these perceptions because we try and see our own blind spots we kind of see look in the mirror honestly at ourselves as we're talking about this but I don't know we're not always that good at it are we yeah I think it always helps to get out of our normal bubble and talk to other humans we're in a very different bubble today well what are your thoughts on that since you're one of our guests here today - are you comfortable with this conversation am i comfortable with the conversation I mean it's always great to be able to get an outside view right yeah and I think Matt's gonna be able to provide that in a sense I mean he's inside in the sense that we're all Christian brothers talking together about our faith but what's thank you for making that distinction yes but on what's on the outside is he doesn't have the peculiar Lutheran baggage that we carry with us a way of I mean especially in our jargon our way of talking you know law gospel probably are not the words that come tripping off or weird a sacrament or you know justification sanctification we've got all these little couplets that really always put it together that way so it's wonderful to have somebody that doesn't you know fit into that way of talking actually be able to say hey you know how you guys are coming across this is how you're coming across become bees kind of scary though so if we get frightened with that look on our face you know all right so I want to say that we've asked Matt to do this so our listeners you guys who are listening you might it might make you uncomfortable but that's okay I think it's good for us to be uncomfortable as we as we talk through this because I don't think it's healthy for us to always be in that place where we are supremely confident in everything about ourselves right right to always be in that place how about for us never to be in that place we're supremely confident about everything about ourselves no excellent okay Matt's given me a scared I now he's like wait what did I actually get into yeah I like your setup that's a good throw that you've put together at the same time I feel a degree of discomfort here I got went to school for this stuff I did the pastor thing until very recently for about 25 years I've been around church I've been around theology I like these things I like paying attention to stuff that's kind of beyond my own borders but the way we got this thing framed now I'm like well I don't know I'm just like one guy is just hearing some stuff I've heard like yeah you guys come up from time to time and I'm willing to tell you like how that usually sounds if you want to know you're gonna tell you what I think okay okay well let's start here then because I think it's it's good to start from a place where we actually have something in common and pastor Whedon you you immediately described it as we are all brothers in Christ and I think that's a good place for us to start with this Matt I didn't prep you for this but when we had a conversation a couple weeks ago you had a little look here's the essence of the gospel yeah share that let's talk about that because I think we're actually an agreement on that and let's kind of flesh that out and we'll start there yeah we think we I would think we are in agreement on that I've made a couple videos about this that the most basic essential level and the call of Christ to everybody who followed him was follow me now what does that exactly mean oh then he goes on to spell that out the rest of the New Testament goes on to spell that out or the Holy Spirit fits into that comes along and that kind of reframes things a little bit or fleshes things out a little bit more but bottom line we're a part of the human mess sin is the word we use for it some of the some of the sin is our own dang Faulks we're being idiots some of the sin is well it's nobody else's fault but it was just us being dumb on accident some of it as stuff other people did to us and we didn't even invite it and sort just kind of victims of other people's sin and some of what is our state of sinfulness is just the fact that you know we live in a world that's subject to the laws of entropy the second law of thermodynamics stuff's broken here it's breaking down as a matter how well you behave morally you still get old and die and so sin is this very multifaceted thing that starts with us but also it's just it's it's all over it's just a human problem there's obvious obviously no solution for the human problem we've tried everything most politics and force deficit nothing has worked nothing's come even close to working and then you got this one weird thing in all of history that is the gospel this idea that the resolution does not come through force or power or violence or the next leader or some sort of artistic Epiphany or whatever it might be but that the solution comes through the originator and maker of everything that exists stepping in and assuming the consequences of the sinfulness of existence upon himself and in doing so sin is resolved in Christ in Christ's death and resurrection what's wrong with us is made right and we are in a position to be recipients of the grace of Christ and this is transformative not just for us as individuals right now but for us as community of believers the church capital C and ultimately every knee bow every tongue confess --is and so this is effective not just for the individual or for the church but for all of creation which is being redeemed as then the zip code of what you guys think guys what do we think I'm gonna more facilitate today cuz we got you all three awesome people will you get to go first I get to go for I would just say Amen you know the only distinction I would put there is the you know that the sin mess we believe is something that actually comes to us by original sin is something inherited something that that's arup I mean ya know that's and we can't do anything about it absolutely not and God's the answer for it was that he comes into it to assume this end mess into himself yeah he comes to become the curse on the tree at the cross for us and that's what absolutely changes the the course of human lives and can change the course of our listeners life that will change the course of this world finally when he appears in glory yeah I agree I would agree with you on the inherited sin thing by the way I would just lump that in on the faceless institutional sin it's not really your fault you're born with that it's just that's one more way that sin is upon you whether you want it or not or did anything wrong or not it's just part of the deal I think of it as I'm a member I'm doing when I think of it Adam's sin I think of the problem that I have with sin is that I want Adam's sin I do the same thing it's not it's nice like I participate in it every single day of my life because I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it and I ran up against this God that goes you don't really want to go down that path yeah go down that's just destruction you know Kevin yeah I you have thoughts I just enjoyed listening to it to be totally blunt it's I mean really it's it's so it's so wonderful to hear a Christian brother walk in and just speak the truth mm-hmm and and for us to sit here and look each other and kind of go you know yeah I thought the way to say that's the truth fun way to say that and you know that's that's a nice nice way to turn that phrase and it all gets us to the the most amazing message you know literally all of eternity that God would do this simply because he loves out of divine grace and mercy and you know we don't deserve any of the Hat mm at all and yet that's exactly what he does and he delights to do it so again it's just it's just such a blessing to just sit in a room and really to hear somebody speak and just simply kind of go yeah yeah that's it I'm like that's the stuff and yet and that's been my experience for the last 48 hours hanging out with all you guys you know here in Missouri will end Illinois I mean like oh this looks weird it's just that's just not that's not how we do things have never never done it that way no we don't do we don't wear the outfits we don't have any of the gestures with no gestures at my church I mean we like in the parking yeah yeah it's just a completely different set of questions and talking with you guys in this room you know your friends who I've interacted with totally different set of questions that are concerning you right now versus what's concerning the group that I run with and I'm I'm credentialed Evangelical Free went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School been a free church pastor for 25 years I was at a church in Lander Wyoming until six weeks ago when when the internet thing just finally caught up with me and there was more to do here and I couldn't do both anymore so left on great terms but I mean that's that's my tradition right and so I've been doing these videos I go I've been to a Catholic cathedral in salt lake an Orthodox Cathedral in Denver an Anglican Church in Vegas and Episcopal Church in Vegas a couple others where I didn't feel like I could publish the video because just the way it went down I don't want to be the guy that goes around other people's churches like I know all the things about how the Christian and they ought to be in your was not good enough so if it made me feel weird I just didn't publish the video so I've been to a whole bunch of places I just did one with a free church as well and the thing that stands out about this one is everything else has looked foreign and also the gospel sounds a little foreign and it's gospel plus some other stuff that I just wouldn't put in there yeah maybe I'm wrong but I just wouldn't put it in there here pretty much everything with the exception of how you would emphasize and characterize a couple things about baptism and communion yeah I mean that's what we do that's that's what we think sure great cool yeah you're citing a whole bunch of the same people yeah we're we're pretty Reformation minded - yeah we're familiar with all of that as well and we talk about these things yeah but what's crazy is it just looks so dang different what's with the outfits I mean you got I mean you got like full-on Pope robes and stuff and we don't have any of those ever in there there was no minor there was no miter though I want to buy one he had the crow I saw there's a Crozier in his office know everybody everybody from my world who's listening to this by the way cuz I'm like oh my go support matter like yeah yeah The MITRE right pointy hats thingy that the Pope wears right I think that's what that is no it's just I mean the the the vestments the pace the tone of the service being in and out of a service in an hour what was that yes it it was beautiful 12 minute sermon but just to I mean the thing that's mind-boggling to me is to feel like alright I'm very familiar with all these different elements of the gospel I wrestle with this with all my friends is what I think about is like the impetus of my life in terms of how I think politics in the world in history and these are my interpretive lenses and just that it never occurred to me to do it like what I saw yesterday at church is really fascinating to me it's like there's this oh there's this other parallel culture like if you started reality over and gave the exact same message that could happen oh well cool that it seems right now I have the whole sci-fi alternate timeline thing going in my head I'm like I see it this is why I like hearing from non Lutheran's or outside what can I just use the term outsider and we all understand this isn't like a yeah it's not we're trying that it's not a pejorative but an outsider saying dude you guys are like an alternate timeline for Christianity and we're in but we're in that timelines right no no no art ours is actually the timeline right yeah that know that we're not the alternate when you're the alternate one what did what did you I don't have an accent you have an accent yeah no we were both enough of a Denverites that I think we're good okay we have no accent between us yeah we'll be quiet house sounds good to me I the so you just want to you want to know what okay so on the street was about you guys before I came here yes my so let's start there okay I have known you exist from as long as I can remember my dad my dad's a pastor can I ask a question yeah sure who's you Missouri Synod Luther oh okay I mean Martin Luther is one of the very first historical characters I can remember learning about as a kid my dad was an American Baptist pastor growing up ended up in conservative Baptist that's where he still is now so very familiar with the concept of Lutheranism but I also remember very early on there was some kind of I wouldn't say ecumenical because dad didn't really do ecumenical stuff but like a ministerial Association thing that's what you'd call it at the church that he was at he came home kind of frustrated and as a kid I always wanted to know like how does church work what are you doing I thought the government paid his salary until I was like 12 I actually dropped that knowledge bomb in front of some people at church and got corrected and now I'm in the free church see how that works there you go yeah so he was like well you know you know this gal from the Lutheran Church she had this opinion they were kind of doing this thing and I just were just not on the same page and I really wanted to pull on that string well how does that work I thought all the Christians were on the same page and so Lutheran was the first thing I learned about that was decidedly other hmm but in that conversation and and I would guess between ages 10 and 12 is about where this happened in that conversation dad laid out that well there's one big group of Lutheran's and this is kind of how they think about the Bible and theology and you know god bless them that we you know we see that a little different at our church but there's another mysterious group of Lutheran's that no one understands and they the heavens gave us from Missouri and they they are they say more things like they're coming at it more like we would and I was like okay mental note not all the Lutheran's are like the Lutheran's that were really confusing to me there's some other mysterious group out there that is apparently similar well dad do we know any of them no and and so and so I've known you guys were existed for a long time but what I heard in that first conversation where I remember Missouri Synod Lutheran coming up is the same thing that I've heard 15 times in the last week telling colleagues other pastors people I know from around the internet who do what I do that I was coming to see you guys everyone's kind of like huh well what should I ask him guys well I asked him just how does salvation work no one knows and I'm not trying to be critical in any way no one actually knows what you guys think about salvation because it is nuanced in such a way that I mean I'm talking the most brilliant people I've met names you know I've watched them fumble over trying to give a really good clear concise explanation of just how that works and so so one thing I would say outsider perspective is that people are pretty clear on where where Missouri Synod Lutheran is on the historic family tree like oh yeah it's right here Prussian Union most people remember that happened they know that's part of the story they know about the emigration that's why I didn't even ask you about it today when we were hanging out well because I think everybody knows that maybe they don't what gets confusing is these stuff like well wait how is that not transubstantiation what you just said it's it's it's different and then you went on to describe exactly transubstantiation how is it different and I got a better sense of that today I'm starting to figure that out so so outside looking in it an outsider we have a very difficult time explaining back to you your read on communion I don't think I don't think most people understand that I think an outsider would have a very difficult time explaining back to you your read on baptism salvation infant baptism is that initiation into the church is that salvific somehow I I heard five different opinions of what you think both ways and all of them were nice and friendly it's it's not grouchy that people don't know they just genuinely don't know what you think and the and the other thing that I heard from literally everybody oh wait there's more and when I ran it by my way and this I don't think any of these things are critical I mean these nuns got all these negative reflections on me well this is great for just not knowing for not being thoughtful enough to go and ask before yesterday and today but the other thing that I heard from my wife relatives of hers who are in the church relatives of mine who are in the church seminary friends professors other pastors and laypeople when I brought this up universally what do you think the one thing that I heard is oh at the church that doesn't they don't that's a great take yeah yeah like they're they're mysterious they stand there standoffish and they don't play well with others they don't play well the DOS the one thing there's no playing here one like the only negative thing that anyone would deign to say that I would interpret it to sit out now kind of like I'm not so sure about them was just that one thing that just doesn't seem like they're interested in anything that happens beyond their borders and they have like their own set of issues that are totally different than everybody else's issues and you just can't get into their world that that's that's kind of the tone that I got right so guys let's talk about this and Matt as we talk through feel free to continue asking clarifying questions okay okay what what do you mean by that what does that mean that wasn't quite what I was getting at it's more along this and as we do that you understand that I really like you right oh yeah this has been awesome dinner so instructive and fun and and so much on the same page yeah I'm only saying this because you asked though yeah thank you for saying yeah please today was awesome actually I had really enjoyed hearing okay cool we're a little bit masochistic that way sometimes well I the truth is the truth and and yeah there's no reason to play around I mean we asked you to come talk to us we meant that and and the fact that you you care enough to to tell us what you're actually thinking and what's going on is that's huge that's what we want you know I mean contrary to the popular opinion that we're closed hey there we go what should be our but contrary to that opinion we do actually want to talk and and learn and listen and also have a chance to explain I mean because the the reason that we are so serious about the things that we are serious about is because we believe there eternally important mm-hmm and therefore we spend our lives focused on things that other people might seem to think are not as important to it you know but we do think they're important and so it's also fun to talk about them right because I mean that's that's what we do we love this stuff so I really appreciate you saying it and and I was actually thinking we were talking boy there's a lot of people play this for [Laughter] this is good this is very good to hear and to end to work through all right so let's let's start with the salvation question there because we always start with salvation as the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I'm gonna hand you it and I'm gonna hand it to Kevin first because we'll God has got a little bit in already today on my part in and we do want to encourage people when that video is out to go check that out well we'll definitely share gruesel productions we'll share it on our social stuff there so Kevin what do we think about how salvation works was that the question how does salvation yeah yeah yeah yeah boy that's a good question we don't know but but if you're but if you were talking to a Baptist you know one two three four and I might not agree with the right two three four but they would have something yeah we we believe that salvation is really God's deal okay that God has done it all and the fact that he gives it to us as a gift is amazing and and that's that's worthy of praise because in the person and work of Jesus Christ God has done everything necessary to save it's it's the Incarnation the death the resurrection the Ascension the second coming it's his perfect life it's his active obedience as passive obedience the whole work of Christ is God's action to save sinners who don't deserve it and then when that's all finished he says here it's a free gift have it and you don't have to earn it you don't have to do anything to get it God simply gives it to you okay you follow up question please yes how did you have it God gives it to you so what so from the god perspective yeah that makes a ton of sense to me right it's a mystery and God understands and he sees things both in and out of time he's unlimited by anything immutable I get it it's difficult but from the human perspective which is where we actually live there are things that who does the different expressions of Christianity talk about or they're like no I mean I did looks like bread but it's not because the thing happened like that looks a ton like bread ya know but a thing just happened but it still tastes like bread chemical analysis reveals that still bread technically that way for it doesn't taste like breath all those down afterwards if you're allowed but there again I I feel like there's there's a mystical is not really the right word right there's some platonic you form and reality and universal language that is foreign to our conversation as as nan Missouri Synod Lutheran's writes about salvation that is still I can't wrap my brain around it so so God has done all this in Christ and it's all done it's all accomplished and it's all freely given to humans how does God give it to humans right how does that become yours how does that become to me that that means that you are going to heaven is that what you're asking yeah or how do you guys know vidual yeah and that is a book and the Bible says that's through faith that faith is the thing that grasps onto that or it receives that yeah that God gives that all what crisis has done he it's given to us by faith and that faith is given as a gift from God and I've read that exactly the same way exactly and and the amazing thing is that just as God was incarnate in Christ doing this action so the giving is also done through means through created means like Christ had a human nature and divine nature in one person of Jesus Christ so also that same God works through created means to deliver that faith by grace to sinners and the most important means that he uses and and the essential means is the word he uses the word just the God who spoke creation into being is a God who uses the word to deliver salvation to sinner's and that word then is manifest in in ways in our world it's manifested in preaching and teaching when we hear the message of Christ as Paul says in Romans 10 it's manifested obviously in the Holy Scriptures but John tells us that Christ Himself is the Incarnate so so all this this deliverance of God through created means is really in the Word of God which is first of all Christ but it's also all these other ways that Christ has delivered to us through the word but then also in Holy Baptism God gives us forgiveness of sins he gives us a Holy Spirit he gives us faith and again the power mapped it is not the water it's not the pastor it's not the center it actually is the word of God spoken that when Jesus says that you're baptized into Christ right when Paul says you're baptized into Christ when when Jesus says in Matthew that you make disciples by baptizing we believe that that's true that yeah that this this promise of God attached to this actually does what it says it delivers the stuff that the promise says is gonna deliver when God says through this you get this then we believe that through that you get that you and we'll read any of the same books you know the only thing I would toss on to that is you know when Jesus introduces the discussion about rebirth in John 3 he does make that mysterious statement mysterious when he says you know the wind blows and you hear the sound of it but who can tell where it comes from or where it's going to and he says so it is with everyone born of the Spirit and so when Kevin said we don't know that's actually the honest answer about what's going on in regeneration we're like I mean we know that the Holy Spirit's operative we know it's happening through the word but the mechanism of how this is all that's the spirits work not ours we just you know we can sort of see the result you know the result when the person opens their mouth and confesses what God has said about it you're like ah okay right back to the confessing thing so is it is it possible for someone to have God as his father and not the church as his mother ooh now that this will probably cause a knock-down drag-out between Kevin and I [Laughter] I was not prepped on this so sorry for whatever is happening no I didn't because I wanted this to happen so I'm just asking no I mean to me answer is it is impossible to have someone for someone to have God is there for they're not to have the church it's their mother because the God chooses to give us rebirth through the means of the word which actually resides in width and through the church the church is always the one that's the mediating the word to us so so I said he's gonna kiss a Kevin rebuttal don't don't don't you tell me supreme what's wrong I'm gonna have to do something to you I should have said it between a true Lutheran and now we know why we're closed there know that the scriptures are very clear on this is that the church is the body of Christ yeah that when you're in Christ or in the body of Christ and and that's the Holy Christian Church as we confess in the Creed's yeah there's no difference there are lots of manifestations of the word church or the way that you mean mother or Church but but in essence it's if you're in Christ or in the church the word and the sacraments are in the church and and the deliverance of the word and sacraments the sinners is something the church does right and it doesn't that doesn't mean what some people think of institutions and buildings and you know robes and copes and the miters do I forget the miters but it does mean that the gospel is delivered by people who have the gospel that means Christians are the ones that bring the gospel to sinners and that's the church fellow she nursed bring the gospel fellow sinners oh yeah that's the only way in that's that's the way it goes and that's why God's done it from the get-go so in in some ways I don't really know how to answer the question other than that Christians belong to the church that's what happens when you're brought into Christ is that you already become part of the body of Christ I think the way to say that as supreme was right this is what Jesus said I don't know what Cyprian said or why he's a part of this I thought he the question I paraphrased is his famous quote about the taking the discussion today because all of you are smarter than me and that's awesome we happen to know one little trivia question and my answer to that and my answer to my own question there would be it's a terrible question but because hate agree with you I would agree that by merit of being regenerated in Christ you are part of the church whether you want to be or understand that yet or not you just are part of the church there's nothing you can do to help it because of the word of Christ but don't you think there's also an aspect of this that says no lone ranger Christian yeah you should just go to church yes we're done that way the final the final thrust of what Cyprian was getting at was you're not going this is not an alone journey this is this is a wee thing not a me thing that is it he he puts you as part of a body there's a time but in seminary when I could have gone into the context of his remarks better than I can recall now but I don't know if that's what he was saying or not I mean he would have been well he goes along with our end of the game that the institutional church would have been something that because of its relationship with society he would have felt the need to defend sure for reasons that go beyond the relationship between the individual in the church they get into the relationship between the church and larger society and the state and I don't know where he was at in his reasoning with that off the top of my head anymore but but I know that when I butcher his quote to ask a terrible question I'm intrigued to ask it of you guys because of what of what I observe our church is it's very very important to us and it's like very very get ready for it very important to you that will re its but but it's not but it is what it is opposite and that's the thing is that we kind of live a mentioned you can be confusing dads we live in tension and sometimes that because because the church is not an important essence in and of herself she is important because she is the body of Christ and and is the place where the word and sacrament are given to sinners I am so we should throw out the big bomb and say in in the way that Lutheran's would classically think about it in and of herself she's a filthy [ __ ] right because she will do anything gory right but that's not just like just like our sinful so just like we have both the sinful nature and the new madam the new self that's been created by God so that is with the church and and so we need to be able to see and describe her the way that the new testament does which it'll show you the [ __ ] in in Revelation but it also shows you the bride coming down from heaven out of God you know and and and which one is the church and the answer is as German word yang it's like you know yeah and no so we're not trying to deny but what I really don't want to deny is that inside of the institutional life of the church that other things subsist it actually does subsist inside of the the the church herself so I mean doesn't make any sense you know I'm saying I mean no matter how bad it can get then this part of what the way the Lutheran's looked at history they looked at in the worst years of of the medieval papacy you know they could still look at insight but the Church of God was really there because the word which creates the church which binds hearts to Jesus was still active there in the Holy Spirit was still at work giving the gift of faith and pulling people into Christ and and I think that's you know there's something mysterious about this group that we are a part of as Lutheran's it's that we are a word church I mean it's just it's because of the word of God that is preached and and believed and given to sinners that the church exists and and even if the church as an institution is entirely corrupt and and you know I myself have been at worship services where I did I couldn't say I'm into much the Scriptures were read and and the Word of God was proclaimed in some way shape or form and to that I could say I'm in that God was present in His Word at that place and therefore those gathered around that word that's the body of Christ yeah I've felt that discomfort trying to scrape the thing or two that yeah we have an agreement I did not feel that yesterday I was I really genuinely appreciated being a part of the service and would like to do it sometime what I'm not trying to sneakily film well no there's there's one told you to buy kills there's one in Spearfish oh yeah I just have to stop by and check that out can I have one thing on that yes I think ties into the whole thing is if you look at the way that the typical Orthodox or Roman Catholic position is I think this is a fair way of saying it that for them the church has the priority and so the order is church and then sacraments so that the sacraments validity hang on getting the church right you get to church wrong then the sacraments are at least wobbly we're not just not efficacious at all and in Lutheranism it really is the other way around it's like word creates the sacraments which create the church so Rome isn't sure what we have for sacraments they just you know though they'll say I did it we don't know I mean you know probably not the real body and blood of Christ I mean though they want to have it they surely they can't right they don't have the apostolic succession which we'd even dispute that depending on how you define it but the another podcast for us we flip it around and we'd say no but see we're sure that you guys have the sacrament because you used the words of Jesus that will not return to him empty they'll give you what they promised you can bank on the words of Jesus you can count on them and so we're confident in that and that makes a different position for us an ecumenical II interesting position for us quite um so well and I was speaking with you know another gentleman from your crew here and it was interesting we talked for about half an hour about some of these same things and we were talking with somebody else and he came back over and kind of gave me the you're confusing to me I know what to do with these people I know what to do with these people I'm not sure what to do with you and and that is an interesting thing because this is what he was lying to you yeah okay yeah I mean we we are off the Lutheran branch of the family tree we are more sympathetic to the Baptist's than the Augsburg confession is I mean it continues to jolt me every time I go back and revisit visit the Augsburg confession like what is the problem is it dope as the word condemned is it the settle down that is a little much but here's the thing and again I'm gonna do another one of these outside looking in things this is not right this is a perspective I when I was 18 I was right about everything now I'm now I'm still right probably about a couple things I just don't also in your first year of seminary you were right about a bunch of your at the year after seminaries when I was a write about the most things ever just just avoid me during that time let me just offend absolutely everyone who's been so gracious to listen to the podcast we welcome you to do so I would posit that if the Turks are not invading if the Ottomans aren't showing up in 1530 and the political pressures that be don't require something like Augsburg to happen and pass muster under the reign of Charles the fifth and we see a later Habsburg Emperor and the political situation changed or evolved as it would have naturally without that external pressure I think you guys go further I don't think you condemn the Baptist's I don't think the sacraments end up looking quite exclusively the way they do and I think what would be that Augsburg confession it'd be called something different if we get a different year it still had to happen it would have happened under Lester s less pressure and I think we would feel slightly less estranged from each other than we do but I think that whether you're looking at the Westminster Confession which was absolutely something that is I think it's beautifully crafted under tremendous political duress it's not a document that had forever to just kind of ferment and work its way out I mean it had to be delivered by a date to solve a crisis and what an amazing thing they accomplished the Augsburg confession it had to be delivered by a date there was a deadline and it's beautiful though I might take slight exception with a couple of turns of phrases I mean what a wonderful state we condemn and reject your slight and you're getting to some of the words I know yeah you know I think look it is really easy for me as an outsider as a historian and that's that's my discipline historical theology history of thought it's really easy for me as an outsider to look at everybody else's thing and be like oh I can tell you within five years one way or the other of when you happened things just I can tell I know is what I do but I can't do it for me so if you want to talk about Evangelical Free Church the weird Scandinavian little bit Baptist a little bit of Pyatt to some a lot of Lutheranism thing that I guess I'm a part of I can't tell you what's wrong with us I have no idea I I know something's wrong with us but it's I mean you look at anything else and it's like oh well I'm sympathetic to that this thing happened then that moment happened well of course you have to address it if they don't address that thing they don't even exist anymore as an institution you don't get the Catholics on board maybe Europe doesn't exist anymore for starters but Lutheranism or Catholicism would have had to have gone away and frankly I didn't like your numbers at that point so I thought working things out at Augsburg was a stroke of genius on your part and we're gonna pause right there because we just had such a long wonderful conversation that we're gonna break it up into two episodes right Kevin yeah and and I know you've listened a lot but you gotta tune in for the second half yeah really worth your time we already know how it ends yeah we HUD ends and it really is good a conversation so please join us again for the second half yep episode 45 will be coming out next week so make sure you come back then thanks a lot thank you

Channel: Crucial Productions

Views: 8,159

Rating: 4.9801979 out of 5

Keywords: #TMBH, TMBHPodcast, Matt Whitman, Ten Minute Bible Hour, William Weedon, The Word of the Lord Endures Forever, LCMS, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod

Id: P5PDzXC9wzY

Length: 43min 58sec (2638 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 31 2019