Become a sustaining member
of the Commonwealth club for just $10 a month, joined today. Painting everyone, welcome to tonight's program, Courtney
Martin, learning in public. My name is Ashley McBryde
and I report on education equity for the Oakland side,
a nonprofit news outlet in Oakland. I'm really excited to be moderating
my first Commonwealth Club program, especially since tonight's
event focuses on a book about how a mother chose a public school
for her daughter in Oakland and the lessons she learned about race. Her community and herself
in making that choice. The book is learning and public lessons
for a racially divided America from my daughter's school,
which I have a copy of right here. And the author is Courtney
Martin, who lives in Oakland. Courtney is an author and organizer
and an entrepreneur. She's a co-founder of the Solutions
Journalism Network and the Fresh Speakers Bureau and editor of the newsletter
examined family. Tonight, she's here
to talk about her new book. Courtney, welcome to
the Commonwealth Club! Thank you so much. Ashley, I'm so excited
to be doing this with you. And for those who don't know
Ashley's work, check out the Oakland side She's been doing some of the most important reporting here
in Oakland on education equity. So I just feel very lucky
to be in conversation with you. Thank you for inviting me to do this. So before we begin, I want to add that
while this program is virtual, the Commonwealth Club is doing safe
in-person programs as well at its headquarters across the bay
in San Francisco to learn more about upcoming programs and to find out
how to be a member of the club. Visit W W W Commonwealth Club, dot org and one more housekeeping bit
before we get started. If you have a question for Courtney or me tonight,
please use the YouTube chat feature. Those questions will be submitted to me
throughout the program, and I'll try to ask as many as I can
during our talk and at the end . So let's get started. Courtney, I finished this book last week,
and one thing that was clear to me early and reading it that as a black woman
who doesn't have children, I'm not exactl the target audience for this book, but
that doesn't mean that it's not important I really enjoyed it. Can you talk a little bit
about who wrote this book for and why? It's such a good question,
I'm really glad that you still enjoyed it I have heard from particularly friends
who don't have kids there, like I never thought I would care so much
about like school meetings. This is like if you told me
about everything like this is going to be really boring,
but I'm actually riveted. How did this happen? Which to me is
like the highest compliment. And you know, we
have not all been parents, but we've all been schooled, right? We all have an educational experience
that is a deep part of this book's journey is just reflecting
on our own school experiences. What is a school? How does it influence
who you become as a human? Those like deeply foundational questions. But you know, on the surface level,
I absolutely wrote this book for white and or privileged parents,
Asian-American parents, folks who have th the resources, the sort of like freedom,
the time, the energy to choose schools. And that's like such a catch phrase,
which I'm sure we're going to get into. But school choice is not as simple
as it seems, right? And so I really, really wanted to address white folks, privileged folks,
especially white mothers. I'm really interested in addressing the ways in which white mothers
have a lot more power than they necessarily own up
to and how politically important that is. But I was also trying to be
in deep accountability to folks of color, to educational activists
and organizers and writers and journalist who've been covering this ground
for so many years. So while it was,
the book is addressed really to white and our privileged parents. It's also it feels important to me
that it's deeply in conversation and useful to folks of color who have been
trying to move this movement forward. And I think at many times haven't
felt like there's a resource to point to to say, you know, go get your people like white people
to organize, need to organize together. White parents need to have
these conversations with each other. And there's a certain kind of exhaustion, I think that comes with trying
to get white folks to think more critically about
some of their choices around education. And so I'm hoping
this book will be of use to. A lot of people have been doing this work
for many, many years. Mm-Hmm. Right. I'm glad you included that piece
about accountability, because I will also add that
before I started the book, when you first approached me about doing this event,
I was a little bit skeptical when I learned about the premise
of the book about a white woman choosing the school
up the street for her daughter. And I was hesitant to be a part
of what sometimes happens when white people receive praise or adulation
for not just not being racist. Can you talk a little bit about that perception and you
were trying to avoid that as well, right? Yes, I love I love the way
you put that right? Yeah, that's that. That's one of the challenges
and the sort of the paradoxes inherent in putting
this book out into the world is, I deeply believe,
because I experienced it myself and I've seen it in so many movements,
not just this one, that social proof, the idea that like you actually do
need other people who you think to yourself, like, well,
people like me do things like this that it is a profound kind of amplifier
effect for social movements, right? We really do need people to see people like them doing something
that they see perceive of as risky. Whether it's actually risky
or not is an important question. But white parents think that sending
their kids to black and brown title one majority schools is a risky thing
most of them do. So how? How do we how do I provide
that social proof that in fact, it's like a deeply enriching
and interesting and wonderful experience, while also making clear
that this is not about me being brave? This is not about me saving anyone. This is not about my child being
some magical human who entered the school It's about the fact that we know
systemically, structurally, culturally, when white people show up at schools,
resources follow. We know that integrated schools and
this is the research of Rucker Johnson. There is a dose response relationship. The earlier kids of color
are in integrated schools, and the longer they're there, the better
they do in school, the more lifetime earning potential they have, the longer
they live, even, which is insane. And white kids do fine and in fact, have
this whole set of social emotional skills that other kids don't have to go to super
homogenous, high privileged schools. So. So we know this is the case. You know, we constantly talk about educational equity
and how hard it is to achieve. But as A.C. Johnson says, you know,
the medicine that is integration works. We actually know it works. It's just our refusal, especially white
and our privileged parents refusal to administer it. That has been that means
that since Brown v board, we've never actually done this
for a concerted amount of time. And the peak of integration was in 1988,
which a lot of people don't realize. Our schools, I'm guessing,
will be even more segregated than ever coming back this fall
because of private school. Folks, like a lot of people, ask public schools
to go to private schools who had the resources,
and then you have a lot of black families who understandably
really enjoyed homeschooling and felt like it was good for their kids and they're going to stick with it
instead of going to public schools. Well, it remains to be seen,
but this is all to say. I think what's important to me is kind of,
how do I provide social proof? How do I provide a model for white folks
as as it's, as I say, learning in public of like trying to actually
walk your talk and be vulnerable about the ways
in which that feels challenging and confusing and uncomfortable. But also, you know that
I am not here to get a cookie. I'm not here to. And in fact, like the further away
I get from the actual decision, the weirder it seems that it ever seemed
in any way brave or strange. Like, I'm like, what? This is so weird. I get to be part of this
like, beautiful school community. My kid gets to be a part of it. Of course there are, you know, struggles just like at any
school community. But like it's which is part of why I wrote the book
when I did, because I was like, I think I'm going to forget
what this even felt like. Like once you step outside of The Matrix,
it's like very hard to remember what it felt like getting to them
inside The Matrix, where you thought you had to get into like one of three schools
or you were going to die, which is really the mindset
of so many white and privileged parents, not just in Oakland,
but all over the country. Mm hmm. There is so much that you mentioned
that I'd like to get into tonight, but we'll start with language. So the book is written pretty
chronologically, and the first section is called Choosing
when you write about going on school tours, having conversations
with other parents about their choices. And I want to dissect
some of the things that you've heard from these other white parents
and how those words and phrases can perpetuate segregation
and stereotypes about schools . And so one thing that came up is the idea
that purposely sending your child to their neighborhood school
because you believe in integration is making your child into an experiment. And another parent told you
you have to separate your ideology from your parenting. I found those phrases
to be really uncomfortable. Can you talk about what you found
unsettling about the way parents talked about schools
and school choice? Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things
I'm trying to do in this book is is make very plain and very visible
the way white and privileged folks do talk about schools
and this is at birthday parties. This is on playgrounds. You know, Elizabeth McCray Gillespie, the historian, has this amazing book
called The Mothers of Mass Resistance. It's about like,
you know, post Brown v board. You know, we think of these like big bad white male judges
who are chipping away at Brown V board. But actually the the resistance to board
was often the sorry. The resistance around V board
was often upheld by mothers just like me who went to PTA meetings,
talked about miscegenation, talked about all the things that you know, white
parents should be scared of and really di this like ground campaign to make sure
that integration didn't happen . So I think a lot about
how could I be a constant gardener in this moment of desegregation? How can I be a constant gardener
even off of not just like, send your kid to a black and brown title of majority school,
but just stop talking about schools you don't know anything
about as if you did. Don't don't say that's a bad school
if you never set foot on it never interacted with the teachers
or parents there. There is this presumption among white and privileged people that, you know, is
blatantly racist, obviously. But but is comes off as quite innocent when it happens in these moments
at birthday parties or playgrounds, right It's just like chit chat about, well,
that school wasn't a good fit for my kid or that school seems very chaotic.
Chaotic is like a huge buzz word. I heard quite often to describe Emerson. The school that my kid now goes to rest is another sort of coded word
that's often used. So anything that you can do
for anyone listening, you know you may not want to choose to school, can choose
to send your kids to a school like this. You may not even have a kid, right? Or you may be a grandparent
or something like that. But anything you can do to stop
perpetuating that culture of talking about schools that you don't know
anything about, and if they're bad, even if you have no firsthand
knowledge of them would be fantastic. And I promise you,
if you if you think about your own contex and the places that are talked
about as bad schools, they will be black and brown schools like,
there's very little chance that anyone listening lives in a region
where that kind of language is put on top of a predominantly white,
predominately privileged school. So, you know, just stop
stop feeding that machine at the very least as as a choice
that would make a big difference. The question of like, well, people
who are listening or reading this book actually send their kid to integrating
schools is is a high bar. And when that remains to be seen, but I. I feel strongly that
even if people just acknowledged had some intellectual humility about what
they actually know about the schools around them and then stop talking about it
like they knew more. That would be a big step. Hmm. When I was reading
that, one thing that it revealed to me was that for some white and privileged
progressive parents, they see integration as an idea that they might think is good
and an idea that they hold. But it's for someone else to figure out
and that they shouldn't have to give up any privilege to achieve equity. Yeah, I think it also reveals
this misperception that you alluded to earlier that integration
or sending your white child to a black school is automatically
going to be a positive for the school and for the black
and brown kids that go there. But for your white child,
they're going to suffer, and that's going to be a sacrifice,
as you mentioned. That's not the case. Research shows that white students also benefit
from attending racially diverse schools. So can you talk about some of the things
that you and your daughter gained from Emerson? Yes. I mean, I like I'm such an Emerson stand,
like I stand so hard, Premiere said. At this point, there's no objectivity. And I know a lot of Emerson teachers and parents are watching, and it's just this like beautiful
speaking experiment. I mean, what a beautiful experiment. It's like a bunch of families
from like profoundly different backgrounds, including
we have a quarter kids from who are newcomers
who speak English as a second language from places
like Yemen and Central America. And then we have a bunch of black
kids, Spanish Latin kids. We have, you know, I think at this point,
around 10% white kids, 75% kids on free and reduced lunch. So you throw that crew of humans together
and I mean humans, it's not just kids, it's like the parents and the aunties
and the grandparents and the teachers, the educational leaders. And it's it's a motley crew, you know,
we just like we figure it out. And I think especially during COVID, I had this like even more deep
appreciation for the community because I realized
we had the muscles for emergency. I mean, I was talking to teachers
and they were like, I know exactly which addresses
my students need food. I'm not only dropping off a Chromebook,
but I'm dropping off dinner and I'm happy to do it. I'm like driving around six hours a day. This is like early COVID. That's the kind of people that are there, like the quality of human
is just like, so beautiful. And there's a lot of joy. And there's a lot of just like learning from each other,
there's a lot of laughing at each other. And you know, there's imperfections
and struggles like every community has. But I think what I mean to my daughter,
Maya, who's going into second grade now, this will be her fourth
year at the school. It's just the water she swims,
and it's just what she knows. And she has a bunch of friends from all
over the city and all over the world, and that's totally normal
to her, which I love. You know, there are various kinds of names
from different cultures slip off her tongue
in a way that it never would mine like. You know, she's just unfazed. It's what she's grown up with for
the adults. It's more complicated, right? I'm the awkward one who's like trying
to figure out, you know what? I get paired with someone in a PTA meeting who speaks Spanish
as their first language. Like, How is my Spanish?
Should I try to speak Spanish? Should I just do English and see
if we can figure it out together like, you know, those kind of moments? And that's great. Like,
I need to be pushed in that way. And I just feel like for me,
it's it's an actual, visceral, like lived experience
of what democracy should be in America. It definitely isn't in any way, shape
or form like we're so far from our dream of democracy. But for me, my kids
school is the closest I ever get to living in an America
that I believe is possible. That's all really,
really encouraging to hear. And none of those things are reflected
in Emerson's two out of ten rating on grade schools that Ford,
which you lamented throughout the book. So let's talk about rankings and ratings. What's wrong with viewing
schools in that way? Well, I'd love to hear
your thoughts on that state because I know your reporting bumps up
against this a lot. You know, I know great schools is trying
to do a better job of representing school and is trying to think about ways
in which they can adjust their reporting. As as an example,
when I first looked at Emerson, it was a one out of ten
on grade school study. Now it's a two out of ten
on grade schools that are. But you can just imagine how damning
that number is for a new parent who is freaked out and like trying to figure out
where to send their kids to school, regardless of what
their race or class background is. Right? I mean, we're all pretty aware of what
a ten means, and one is very far from it. So, you know, we have to think differently
about these numbers. They're mostly based on
standardized tests. Standardized tests directly map
on the socioeconomic background. And some schools, as we've seen,
especially with like the hard drilling charter schools, do better at helping low income kids
do better on standardized tests. But the the downside of that
is you're getting a school with a very somewhat even, say, militarized approach
to focusing on tests to drilling kids. Some feel like it's really joyless. I've never experienced, you know, my kid
has never gotten to that kind of school. I've never reported from within one of those kind of schools,
but I've seen some great reporting on it. And it does seem like there's a big loss
to a deep focus on the tests. On the other hand,
and this is a conversation we have in our school site
council at Emerson, these boring meetings that I somehow managed
to write a book about like the test matter because we still live in a country
where there are gantlets by which kids have to go through
to get to the next step of opportunity. So as long as tests exist in this country, I care if other black moms or other brown
moms at my school are saying, I want my kid to be able to do well this test so that
they can get into this junior high so that they can get
into this high school. Like it's not my job as like
a white parent coming in to say, like, let's just forget about the tests, right? Because my kids are going to be fine. Like I, I my kid could do shitty on the tests
and I'm going to get her an internship, potentially at like some friends place
and her the passion she has. And maybe that's going to be cool
for her college resume. I mean, this is all hypothetical,
but it's like the social capital I have, and just the economic lack of precarity
means that I can have a pretty freewheeling
relationship to these tests in a way that some other parents
don't feel like they can. And so that's really the line that I'm trying to walk in
this book is say, OK, like, I don't believe Emerson is a two out of ten on any meaningful scale. But I also want to listen to the parents
in my community and make sure that we, as a community, not placing
blame on any one adult in the room. But all of us make sure
that on our watch, kids get what they need
to thrive throughout their lives. And you know, this comes up in so many things
that I have projects I worked on. I'm really interested in the gap
between the world as it is and the world as it should be,
you know , like the world as it should be School should have
all the resources in the world. We should be able to do like project based learning
and all kinds of other interesting things You know, black brown kids deserve those
experiences just as much as white kids in the world as it is. We never have enough resources
and those kids, all of our kids need to like pass test because that's
the structure of the public school system So here we are in the middle of of all of that, and
we have to make decisions about where we send our kids to school
and what we value. And so that's a big
part of the book is saying like, you know, you're in this tragic gap,
as my mentor Parker Palmer says, like, how are you going to stand on it
with more grace? How are you going to stand in it
acknowledging your own power and doing whatever you can to make sure
that the the folks who have been most marginalized historically in this country
get what they deserve? I want to just remind everyone, if
you have any questions for me or Courtney you can submit them in the YouTube channel
and then they will be relayed to me. How do you feel about the scars
I really would love because I know this comes up
in your reporting. I was going to give a personal anecdote
of how I relate to this. So I'm not from California.
I grew up in Tampa, Florida. And when I was in elementary school,
my mom face kind of a similar conundrum, with the neighborhood school
being low, pretty lowly rated. It's probably has
a similar profile to Emerson. It's mostly black, mostly low income, and
she did not want me to go to that school. And the way it works in Tampa is that you're automatically assigned
or zone to your neighborhood school. And so I'm still not quite. Sure, what my mom had to do to get me
into another elementary school, but I did go to one that has an eight or nine on grade schools and I really enjoyed it. I I don't really know what I might have missed out on
by not going to my neighborhood school. But there were still sacrifices that
we made in the other elementary school. It was across Tampa. It was a 45 minute drive every morning and afternoon,
so that meant early mornings it meant. But at the end of the day, I was a lot. I was. Pretty often, like the last kid
to get picked up from after school care
because my mom had to drive the traffic. So I say that all to say that the school
that has the high ranking, it's not, you know, there's still sacrifices and choices
and consequences that you have to make. Yeah, an important part of that story
also is that your mom both had the energy and wherewithal to figure
all of that out and navigate the system, which is no small task,
but also had transportation. I mean, one of the things that underlies
so much of educational equity is transportation is in cities with
with bad public transportation systems. It's like we say, we have school choice. We say low income
families can choose where they want to go but they can actually get
where they might want to go. Not to mention that cultural harm
that's caused by being at a school that was not built for you
that may not like pedagogically celebrate your culture or reinforce,
you know, that stuff that you're experiencing at home
and and the beauty that's there. So there are so many costs. I mean, I think we've told a very simple
story about integration in this country. And you know, there's Ruby Bridges is I don't know if I'm allowed
to curse on this, but is like should be celebrated
in every way, shape and form. Her parents should be celebrated. Her mom just passed recently. Like, you know, folks who actually did
the work of trying to integrate schools post brown v board, mostly black and brown
folks deserve all the adoration, but the story we tell about it is so simple
it's like their bravery, their opportunity
that they gained through this. When the truth is,
there are so many costs, there are so many spiritual costs. There were beautiful black schools
that got destroyed through Brown v board. There were economic costs. I mean, there were just so many things
that black and brown brown families historically went through to integrate schools, which is part of why
this contemporary conversation is so painful because it's like
so white families because of some theoretical threat
to their children. That is totally unsubstantiated
by any kind of research aren't going to send their kid
to a black and brown school and then say it's an experiment. To your point of the earlier question, when this is what we've done
historically in this country to black and brown families like so. So one of the other things I'm really trying to do in the book
is kind of right size, white and privilege
people's fears like I'm so struck by the way, and this really came up
in the book around the merger narrative at the way in which
weight and privilege people appear so often to feel so comfortable
claiming traumas, narratives of trauma, claiming all of these intricate reasons
why they can't make an integrating choice And so I'm I. I hope that people leave the book feeling
like they have to face those explanations with a little bit
more of a clear eyed honesty. Mm hmm. OK, I'm going to put your question that I got from the audience, and it is
how do we encourage more parents in the Bay Area to think more positively
about their public schools? It's hard. I mean, I'd be curious
what your thought of as to actually because you know, Oakland Unified is not known for its like, cogent, cohesive leadership or like, you know, clear vision
or management of money, right? It's like, Oh, USD has had,
you know, in recent history and sort of throughout
history, so many problems, so many documented corruptions and
disorganization and all the other things. So it's it did feel hard to write a book
saying like, come on, like, let's do this Like, let's invest in public schools
when we're in a region where the public schools
that are so profoundly mismanaged by those in charge, you know, not to say anything
about this particular superintendent, who I think is doing a great job
and doing the best she can. But it's just like, it's not. It's not known for being like
a stellar district or a district where integration is prioritized
or things are handled well. So it's it's hard to ask people
to invest in public schools. And in fact, for those who aren't aware,
like Oakland, is about 40% white and only 10% of public
school kids are white. So even the concept of like integrating
Oakland public schools is not really a white issue because there
aren't enough white kids to go around. You know, there are like 80 schools. I feel like you just said this,
and I played around 80 160 schools, 81 schools, 10% white. Like, that's you know,
I think the question really here is like, how do you make integrated schools
beyond whiteness? Like, forget, forget white people. I mean, I'm going to keep, I'm
going to keep going to white people. But but you know, how do we just integrate from a class perspective,
how do we and how do we make sure that the actual structural way
in which our enrollment works, which again is something else
you've been reporting on, is as immune to kind of white opportunity hoarding and strategizing
and maneuvering as part. Possible, so I think there are
some deep structural questions before us. I don't I wouldn't dismiss someone's reservations
about USD or the public schools here. I think they're legit. But I think in maybe it's COVID and the sort of the year
we've all experienced together. But I feel this profound urgency
about public schools right now. I just feel like
our democracy is so fragile and we've seen that in the last five years
and especially in the last year. And so anything I can do to feed democracy, which again
to me is a straight line to public school where people learn
how to be critical thinkers. They learn how to befriend
and collaborate those unlike them. For me, that's urgently worth it, even if it's it's not a perfect situation. And, you know, people,
in addition to saying, like, Are you experimenting with your kids will be like, Well,
everyone wants is best for their kids. And this is also where I just feel like
what's best for my kids is that after I'm long gone, they actually live
in a thriving representative democracy. And I it's very dramatic. But I don't feel like
that's going to happen if we don't have a strong public
education system. I want them to live in a country where people are critical thinkers,
where they can distinguish between truth and manipulation,
where they can befriend and collaborate with people and like them and like. That's to me, not going to happen unless
enough of us invest in public education. I would just add to answer the question. You know, all the things that you said about the District
Central Office are true, but you can still get involved
at your local neighborhood school and it can still be a great place
for your child, as you learned, Courtney. So I guess I would advise parents
to try to do what they can at their their local school or the school
that they choose for their children. And probably also, I don't know
much reporting you've done on this, but like private schools
aren't perfect places. I mean, I think that's the other dichotomy
they get set up as like, well, public schools are so under-resourced
and imperfect and badly managed, but it's like a lot of private schools
have a lot of problems too. So it's not like you can opt out
of complexity, even if you can pay for it What kind of complexity
are you interested in? Like, I'm I'm much more interested
in the kind of complexity I find at a school
like Emerson than the kind of complexity I might find it
a very expensive private school. So that's another
just another thing to throw out there is that I don't think investing
in public education. I mean, investing in not disinvesting
from public education means you get to avoid complexity. Hmm. OK. I want to go back to the book. one of the most interesting people
that I found in the book was your daughter's teacher, Mrs. Minor. And she is a woman
who is really passionate about affirming black students identity and caring
for them, but not coddling them. And what I also liked about her
was that she didn't coddle you either. When you went to talk to her
and ask her about her views on school integration
and the role that white parents play. And she said to you. So you're wondering about white parents
integrating schools, but did you really mean gentrifying them? And so I want to pose that
question to you here. What is the difference
if there is one between gentrifying and integrating public schools? Yes. Mrs. Minor, who now is called Amma
by most folks, including the kids at her beautiful preschool, that she start is such an important teacher in this book,
not just my kids' teacher, because she was my kid's teacher, but my teacher, which becomes
like a big backbone of the whole thing. The book would not be
the same without her. So I feel very grateful to her, and I think there is a profound difference between integrating
and gentrifying a school. But it's played out
in very small interpersonal ways. So I think gentrifying a school is is when white folks, privileged folks,
Asian-American folks come along and say, it's in this language,
you hear a lot critical mass. So like, let's get a critical mass
of people from the neighborhood who previously been
in this neighborhood school. Let's now invest in this neighborhood
school and make it quote unquote better. But the better is defined by the culture of those parents
by, like, usually a white elite culture. And so it may not actually align at all with what generations of families at that
school have valued about that place. And so and we really saw this
in that super popular podcast Nice, nice white parents, right? It's like white folks bullying their way and remaking the school in their image
and wanting to get a cookie for it. So, I mean, the most primary thing that
that white and privileged parents can do who are thinking about this and not
wanting to be gentrifying schools is. Is think about how you show up,
and I've been so accompanied in that regard by this organization called Integrated Schools,
which folks should Google and check out that has a podcast
and just has like a bunch of resources about once you make this choice,
which, as you know, is only the first part of the book
is making the choice. And then the three other parts
are about showing up, like, how do you live into the choice? How do you do it in a respectful,
humble way and integrated schools talks a lot about,
you know, show up, shut up and stay put. Which became a bit of a mantra
for me, complicated eventually, by realizing that shutting up in some ways
can be inauthentic at times, that shutting up can sometimes mean
not making sure that all kids are getting what they need to thrive and just being a voice
for transparency and rigor. So like, I began to complicate that
through the narrative of the book, but that's really what I think of as the difference is like,
are you there to humbly be a part of the community
authentically, humbly, to be a part of the community, offer
the resources you do have? Or are you there to take over,
remake the school in your image? And I think surprisingly, it can be hard for weight and privilege
people to to feel into that difference, which is part of why
the book is so textured and so vulnerable is,
I think that like this moment we're in a racial reckoning requires
this kind of vulnerability about like these actual interactions,
not just all like academic or like theoretical ideas
about how to be anti-racist, but how how do we actually show up
and try to be aware of our our impact on communities? That's a really good insight. I was also thinking about this question,
and I can't say that I had ever grappled with it
before reading it in your book, but I would say with gentrification,
there is also an element of displacement, which is what you were talking about. And so I looked at the demand rates
for immersion, and it's at about 60%, which means that there are more seats
available than the number of families who wanted to go to the school. And there are some schools like Shabo and Peralta and Glenview,
which are all schools that you talk about in your book that the other parents are opting for
that have a higher than 100% demand rate, which means that more people
request the school than there are seats. So I think if we get to a point
where you have white people increasingly going to these schools
and fewer if you're a black and brown families going there,
that seems like gentrification. Yeah. Well, and this is an important point
for anyone listening in Oakland. Like this is not about Emerson
being, you know, and this is more terribl white parent language of like a diamond in
the rough, like Emerson is awesome. So is like Prescott
and Hoover and Cleveland. And like, there are 81 schools
in this district and white folks congregate in three
or four of them, right? So it's like there are
so many schools that way. People interested
in this conversation can check out. It's not about like Emerson in particular,
and that's where I think these demand right things come in, where it's like all of a sudden like,
this is the hot school, to your point. Like, this is a place that people have heard about through sort
of the whisper network of white parenting There are so many beautiful communities in
Oakland and in every part of the country that are overlooked by white and privileged folks
just because they haven't thought deeply enough about these questions of like, What do I actually want
from a school experience? How can my power privilege
instead of sort of paralyzing me, be something that I learn
how to how to leverage and live into and learn how to use for,
like a greater good? I did want to try out
just because I think it's so comprehensiv and smart is there's this organization
in New York called Integrate NYC. That's a youth led movement. It's like all teenagers
who are just, like, totally fantastic, and they have this concept
of the five hours of real integration. So to your point of like integration
versus gentrification, and the five hours
are race and enrollment, which is pretty straightforward, right? Make sure that you have. And I would say class
to sort of race and class enrollment policies that encourage
actual integration resources. So make sure resources are distributed
more evenly and then relationships across group identities. And this is a really important one because we see so many schools
where there's actual the demographics look integrated,
but actually kids don't know each other and they don't sit together. They're not in the same classes because all the white kids are in like AP
classes, et cetera, restorative justice. So this is like actual processes of
like living in a multicultural community, which is not easy for us because
we're still such a segregated country and then representation of school faculty,
which is also a really important point that that Mrs. Meiner brings up a lot is like, who are the teachers
and educational leaders that are standing in front of those kids
in those classrooms? So just want to throw that out
because I love Integrate NYC, and I think they have probably done
that better than than most of us adults. Wow, that's really interesting. I would definitely have
to look up that organization. I want to talk about Brewer for a few minutes and then Brewer
Middle School, because that does seem to be a school that white parents
have recently discovered. And now the parents and teachers
there are kind of grappling with the demographic
changes at the school. So last fall, I wrote a story
about a number of middle school, and it's the school
with the highest demand rate in USD 259%. They got 700 applications
last year for sixth grade, for sixth grade classroom, about 250. But it wasn't always like that. And over the past ten years, as the demand rate has gone
up, the demographics have shifted. The percentage of white students
has gone from 10% to about 25%, and white students are now
the largest plurality at the school. And they've seen the black and Asian
and Latino percentages go down, and they've also seen the number
of students with free and reduced lunch, which is a measure of poverty
and low income also decrease. And so I'm curious what you make of that,
what you think a solution could be, and we can talk a little bit about what
the parents and teachers at the school are trying to implement
to try to mitigate those trends? Well, this is and I'd love to hear you
talk about your reporting because I know you've reported on this enrollment pilot,
but there is this enrollment pilot in Oakland with I think it's three
schools are involved. Right? Yeah, three schools
trying to sort of get ahead of the curve
on some of this and say, like, how do we? Create structural interventions
that, again, ameliorate how strong white and privileged
culture is around strategizing around this sort of
like whisper network of white people who tell each other like,
Oh, now Edinburgh is OK to go to like you should really put your
name, put them on your list. So I think these these kind of structural
interventions are super important. I also think the cultural interventions
are really important. I was struck. A lot of people have read Ibram X Kendi this year
and how to be an anti-racist. He talks about that. He thinks policy has to come before culture, that he sort of sets up
that linear dynamic. And I was so curious about that
as I was working on my book because I was like, You know, Brown v board
really was ahead of the culture, right? Brown V Board was passed way
before Americans. At least white Americans were ready
to actually think about integration, and we saw the fallout for that. I mean, we have like the heartbreaking
visuals of that. So ultimately, was that a net good
or was there so much damage caused because the culture wasn't ready
for that policy that it wasn't? It's an open question. I mean, it's like we're
all just still living into this journey. But I wonder about that with these,
I think there are districts. There's clearly Oakland
does a remarkably bad job at structuring enrollment to protect against white
and privileged parents maneuvering, right So like writ large,
that's got to be a net good. But I do think I still believe in doing the cultural work
and the policy work hand in hand, in hand I think like we should change how enrollment happens in Oakland,
but I think we also have to keep peeling back the layers of this
like theoretically progressive city and saying, like,
how is it that we all are so identified with progressive values
and with equity and with anti-racism? And yet we continue to stand by well,
you know, the reading rates for black kids in our city
are so profoundly bad like that? What what sense do we make of that? Like that has to be a cultural and even, like I would argue, a spiritual
and collective question. But I'd love to hear you like,
how do you think that intervention is going
and how do you think about culture versus policy and kind of the order
of those things? Right? So I'll start by briefly going over
how enrollment works in USD and essentially you rank the schools
that you would like to go to. And then Oakland Unified gives you a
priority based on a few different groups. So if you have a sibling
that goes to that school, your child will have
a higher chance of getting in. If you live in the neighborhood,
that's like the next highest priority around a school. You have a higher chance than getting in than if you don't live
in the neighborhood. And then if you live in Oakland, you have a higher chance of getting in
than someone who doesn't live in Oakland. So there is, even though a USD does have school choice
and you can choose to apply to any school you want,
there is a neighborhood priority and these enrollment pilots that a Sequoia Elementary and Shabo Elementary were trying to do
was they wanted to give a priority to students from low
income black and brown neighborhoods. And so they ran that pilot this past
enrollment cycle, and they did see that they accomplish what they set out to do,
which was offer more seats to students from low income,
black and brown areas of Oakland. But I think that, you know, it's a pilot,
it's not going to and it's not going to make systemic
change is just offering, you know, a few dozen seats to a few students
in different areas of Oakland. And one thing that I heard
from the teachers and parents at Brewer who design their pilot
was that what they came up with and was a compromise
they initially wanted to preserve. Like half the seats
in their incoming class to low income black and brown students,
or they wanted to make. They wanted to give
those students a priority above the neighborhood priority. And that did not go over well with the way
and other privileged parents who were able to buy into that neighborhood
to get into that school. And so, you know,
and this is where like these questions of like our public schools are actually
public become very interesting because it's like, I think it's Jack Schneider
whose work I really benefited from while I was working on my book says, like, you
buy a house, you buy a school like people And I was not actually organized
enough to do that. When we bought our house,
I was like, I'm pregnant. I don't know which way is up. I'm just trying to find
a place to lay my head. I did not look up
what our neighborhood school was. I was in no way planning, but
I think I'm quite unusual in that regard. I think a lot of people who are buying
homes, especially in the Bay Area. This incredibly inflated
market moment are thinking a lot about what district they're buying into,
what school they're buying into. And that's where this perversion
of the notion of like a public school system really hits home is that all of
this is so intertwined with housing. And here we are, you know, in one of
the worst housing markets in the nation. So, of course, that shows
up in our school segregation. OK, I want to address one question
that we just got that said, what about white children
that are low income? And I will add that for the pilots they targeted so they didn't
target individual families. They targeted like census tracts
that were low income and that had more than half of
the residents were black or Latino. So it'll just be, you know,
if you live on that block or in that sense of shock,
you'll get a priority into that school. But it was an expressed desire
from the schools that design the internships
that they wanted students of color, more students of color,
specifically in their schools. Yeah. And I, you know, I think this is not unlike the question that always comes up
about grappling with race and racism. It's like, but what about poor
white people? Right? This is like when we talk about Trump
or we talk about, like so many of the racial reckoning
related conversations that have happened over the year. Like, of course,
there are low income white folks who are grappling with access
to high quality school. Super important topic, but I don't think it should distract from
the fact that we live in a historically black city, the home of the Black Panthers
and for generations, we have not educated black kids in the way
that they deserve to be educated. And so like that, you know, of course,
we should be considering low income white kids,
but I really feel like that's kind of a red herring in these conversations
that often serves to distract us from really thinking about the most historically marginalized folks,
not just in Oakland, but nationally. And how do we finally finally finally like generation after generation
do something different? And I also wanted to add that when it comes to source
school segregation, we can't talk about school segregation
without talking about housing segregation And in a city as segregated as Oakland,
I think that if US city really wants to be serious about integrating schools
or having equitable enrollment, they can't leave the neighborhood
preference intact. You just can't give people a preference
to the schools that they live around. When you have such a segregated city and anyone missed it,
that was Ashley's dropping like moment because neighborhood priority is like
such a sacred cow. You know, like, I love that
you said that because I do think like tha we got to get real about
some of the stuff we got to like. Talk about the ways
in which public schools can be bought in in the current system
that we have in this current structures. I love that you said that. I just want to make sure you're so subtle,
you're so smart and so subtle that I'm like, Is everyone
hearing that OK, you go. And then the last thing I wanted to say is that when that giving you talked a bit
about culture versus policy, and now we have a policy
that gives parents and white parents the choice of where
they want to go to school, but it doesn't seem like white
parents are going to willingly integrate. So I think that the the policy
might have to come first. But yeah, I don't know. I'm not a parent and I haven't really had
to grapple with these questions. one of the things we talked earlier
that I love so much about your story and you shared a little bit
about your elementary school experience, but you ended up by the time
you were choosing high school, really advocating with your mom, like,
I know the high school I want to go to. And she actually disagreed
with you at first and you pushed for it. I think that's like such a beautiful part
of of this moment we're living in is that young people are saying like a we want equity first and foremost,
not not all young people want integration A lot of young people probably have reason
to be cynical about integration. But young people
are watching the disaster. We see this country in terms of
kind of actual racial and social healing, and they're saying like,
we want something different and including I think a lot of,
you know, black and brown kids saying, I' not aspiring, like ,
I'm not going to spend my whole life and all my energy and emotion
and love on reaching this white ideal that is tied up in so many of these,
you know, the great schools numbers and the Ivy League expectations
and all of the things like, I'm intereste in carving my own path. That includes being a part of communities,
whether multiracial or beautiful Afrocentric, you know, communities
where like my values are mirrored, where my excellence is, is easily seen
by the leaders and educators around me. So I loved hearing about your own advocacy
as a teenager, and I just that's one of the things that's given me
the most hope , as I was reporting on this book is just all these young people
who are so much more clear about what's going on in this country
than I think I was in high school. We have about ten minutes left. I have a couple of more questions that I really want to ask,
and I'm also going to ask some of the ones that we've gotten,
so I'll try to be short. OK, one more thing that I wanted to add
about the pilots that I think is really important
is that they are putting the burden on black and brown students and families
to do the integrating. And that's a burden that we and I'm
speaking as a black woman who is the daughter of someone who is bus
to white schools to integrate them. That has been a burden that black and
brown families have carried for decades. And so these pilots
don't really change that. Thank you for saying that. I think that's so important. So, OK, and let's see. I guess I'll ask
a question from the audience. Someone asked, Have
you developed friendships with parents at your daughter's school
as your daughter has? Yes, I mean, the simple answer is yes. But I find my ability to create
friendships is far more fraught than hers and that's, you know, about adults being
a lot dumber about multi-racial world class friendship, especially adults
who didn't go to integrated schools. You know, I went, I think one could argue I went to an integrated middle school
and high school to some extent, but my elementary school is very white,
like predominantly white. And so I often think about
how all of this would feel if I'd had a different
kind of elementary school experience, which is, you know,
as we know from all of the research, is so foundational to how a kid, you know, how their brain is wired, how their body
actually knows how to share open spaces. I mean, it gets it gets pretty corporeal. It's like very clear
that my kid can show up on a playground where there isn't a white kid in sight
and feel very at home and make friends with kids that don't seem to appear
to look anything like her. Like, that's just what her body
now knows how to do. And I think because the work of people
like my mannequin and others like, I've been very interested
in how white bodies just like that have been
in segregated spaces don't really know how to be a
multicultural community. My own included. And so that's part of the book too is it's kind of both
being really open to and having some great friendships
with other parents, but also being very critical of my own capacity
to do that authentically and kind of like read the different layers
of my own expectations of other people. one more question from outside
of California, actually from the audience They said I live in an 88%
white Northampton, Massachusetts, which isn't a city
and there aren't any majority black or brown schools for white parents to consider their majority black
and brown schools in nearby towns, though, and my white family
is considering those options. I wonder your thoughts
about moving to one of these towns and fully immersing economically
into the environment versus simply driving
one's white kid to the school? They're fascinating. Wow. Actually, I don't know
if you have thoughts about that. That's really interesting.
I know Northampton. Beautiful place. Beautiful humans there
that I know and love. I, I'm trying to like,
feel my way into this difference. I mean, certainly there's no way to get away from being an outsider
if you're driving in. But I actually think there's no way
to get away from being an outsider if you move there. Like, I sort of end up
feeling your if you do or if you don't and you're blessed if you do your blessed,
if you don't like it's it's about how you show up
in the actual school community. I think proximity to the school is special
in so many ways and like, there could be some real benefits, particularly if you're that kind of family
that would get involved in things outside of the school. Like, would you be
a part of civic organizations? Would you? Are you like a person of faith that would
go to like religious institutions where you would also see folks
that our family is at your kid's school like the more intertwined
your lives become? Obviously, the more just
joy and good energy flows to, like, create those friendships
and like, really do the thing. But I also just think they're that like by by way
of white skin privilege and economic privilege, which is what it
sounds like is going on here. You'll always be an outsider to some extent, so
I wouldn't make the move thinking somehow that's going to erase that difference
or kind of boil down the complexity, but actually wondering if you have
any thoughts about that question? I would say. Move there, but not just for the school,
but because you're currently living in a city or town that's 80% white
and that's not reflective of the world around us, so I would be in favor of moving there so you can immerse yourself
in a more diverse city and have your kids in a more diverse
school. Great answer. We should start our own advice show
actually just one 800 Courtney and Ashley OK, let's see. I'll ask one of my questions
one of my last question. So the pandemic has forced schools to close in Oakland
and the Bay Area for more than a year. And that, combined
with some parents, desires to do more in-person learning
they're fed up with distance learning has led some people to think that there will be an exodus
of white parents from public school districts like Oakland and San Francisco,
which will lead to more inequality. What's the right way to address that? Can we prevent that from happening? Um, can we prevent that from happening? No, I mean, I think we're on like a
we're on a train, we got to keep writing it,
but and I don't think we know till this fall, I mean, I've been having
a lot of conversations with folks at my school
and it's like, you know, we go back on Monday, which is crazy. I can't believe that's already happening,
but we go back on Monday. And by the way, my my oldest will be going to second
grade her fourth year at the school. My youngest is going
to start kindergarten, so I'm going to have
two kids at the school. And I think a lot of teachers
and educational leaders just feel like we got to show up on the first day
and see what we're dealing with. I mean, there's such profound
economic and emotional and obviously physical
health like health implications of this last year,
and we'll have to do it some assessing when everyone is on site to be like,
What are the needs? What can we do for folks? I know the COVID
funding that filtered down to our site from the federal government
is making a huge difference. There's a bunch of stuff
that we were trying to figure out how to fund
that is going to be funded for this year by those COVID
emergency dollars. That's not a long term solution to our lack of resources,
but I'm feeling very grateful about that. And you know, there's there's a lot of
complexity to this because it's not just, I mean, certainly there are white families
who had the economic privilege to buy into private schools,
which have, you know, infectious disease specialist on staff
and big beautiful wedding like tents outside and all the resources
to make going back to school happened. And those that are even more elite
that are doing kind of the bespoke pod thing forever because they're like,
Oh, I got to design this myself. But the other thing is, there are a lot of black families
who are not going back to public schools who said this homeschooling thing
actually works better for us and our kids Our kids are learning to read
at a faster rate. Black families and brown families
have been under served for a very long time by public schools,
so I think a lot of them after this year of experiencing what it's
like to be in a little bit more control of their kids learning experience
when I keep doing that. So it's it's is complex and I don't know. I think it remains to be seen. I don't know if you have any predictions
about that yourself actually from your reporting. And I also would like to wait and see
until we have the hard numbers I've heard anecdotally
and seen in conversations like on Twitter and elsewhere that people are fed up
and want to leave the district. But I do think it remains to be seen
what will actually happen in the fall. There's one more
question, one more audience question that I'd like to pose to you. And they said, you mentioned
that your local public school, that you as close as you have been in participating
in the American democratic vision, what is it about schools
that makes that happen? I just I mean, schools are such
beautiful places, I just it's like,
I mean, kids are so beautiful. Like one of the great joys of reporting this book is just
I paid such close attention to children. And you know, I've always paid
attention to my own children, but to pay attention to a bunch of kids
at my kids' school and kind of like, get to watch what lights them up and like, seek out their special
gifts and talents. I mean, there are a few kids I have fallen
madly in love with that are not my kid. And, you know, I love my kids to death. But like, it's just such
a beautiful privilege to be near children and to get to watch them
and appreciate them. And that's what teachers
and educators get to do. I mean, no one goes into teaching
unless they get that, and they love that sacred experience
of watching children become who they are. So I think that's I mean, as cheesy as it sounds like,
that's the beauty of schools. It's kids. I mean, it's it's
all the adults that are screwing it up. It's all the adults that have have led
to such profound inequities. When you when you really listen to
what kids are saying about what they want from schools
and what they enjoy and you know, their own very innate curiosity
for learning and all the rest of it, it's pretty straightforward
and it's it's gorgeous. So I guess it's just kids. I think kids have the most to teach us
about how it actually functioning democracy would work. Awesome. I think that's a really good place to end,
we are at 7:00 p.m.. So I think that wraps up our time. I want to thank you, Courtney Martin, for joining us
for today's Commonwealth Club program. And I want to encourage everyone
watching to check out her book, Learning and Public Lessons for a Racially Divided
America from My Daughter's School, which is out just today. Is there a particular place
that you want people to buy from? Bookshop Dawg helps
get it through indie bookstores. If you have a local indie bookstore
that's like obviously wonderful to feed those important places of business
in all of our local communities. And you can subscribe
also to my Substack newsletter. It's called Examined Family. Follow me on Twitter at court writes
all the things, and please, please, pleas check out Ashley's
reporting and Oakland side in general, which is one of these
incredible local outlets that is just doing a fascinating
and important job of covering what's happening here in Oakland ,
doing it with accountability to folks who have lived here for a long time,
being like very creative about events and all the rest of it. I just have such admiration
for both your reporting and for Oakland side,
more largely Ashleigh. So thank you so much for doing this. Well, thank you so much and my coworkers are an awesome team
and we all do really incredible work. So lastly, this program will soon be
placed on the Commonwealth Club website. W W W Dot Commonwealth Club dot org where we encourage you to view it
and share it with your networks. I'm actually McBride and this Commonwealth
Club program is now adjourned.
