Conversations | What Do Young Collectors Expect from the Art Market?

good evening welcome to conversations at Art Basel Miami Beach I'm ed Winkelmann and our panel today is what do young collectors expect from the art market we have assembled a range of opinions on that topic and our conversation will be guided by our moderator Alexander Forbes who's the market strategist at art see and I will just ask if you will join me in giving them all very warm welcome thank you so much Edie and thank you all for joining us and also on the live stream really excited about today's panel and the topic which is super important for the industry right now as we think about how to bring in new collectors cater to young collectors needs understand how we can serve them better with me today is Joanna Bell urado Samuels who's the founder of we buy gold a roving gallery presenting exhibitions commissioned projects and public events and director at the Jack Shaymin gallery in New York she's on the curatorial team of the racial imaginary Institute which seeks to change the way that we imagine race in the United States and internationally by featuring works of artists writers knowledge producers and activists Joanna is also the founding director of Four Freedoms the first artists run super PAC which uses art to inspire deeper political engagement for citizens who want to have a greater impact on the American political landscape next to join is Paul Liang is an avid collector of works by contemporary and emerging artists his collection includes works by artists working across many different mediums such as lawrence abu hamed on ian chang peggy shing clearly dan wolfgang Tillman's lutz Bakker and many others Paul is an officer of MoMA's Contemporary Arts Council and a co-chair of the sta friends at the Contemporary Art the foundation sorry for Contemporary Arts last but not least Elena Serova is the director of online sales at david's werner which is a newly created position about a year ago as part of an increased focus on digital initiatives at the gallery elena leads the program in curation and strategy for the gallery's digital channels which include over 20 online exhibitions 25 art previews annually as well as the galleries online viewing rooms part adjoining david's werner elena was an early employee and lead curator at artsy where he had the privilege of working together for a number of years and where she oversaw collector initiatives and programming both online and offline Alana's also written about the art market and previously worked at the Jack Shaymin gallery with Joanna and at Christie's so a lot of CV overlap on the panel today I'm Alexandra Forbes I work in corporate development and market strategy at art C we partner with over 4,000 galleries art fairs auction houses and institutions provide the most comprehensive platform to discover and collect art online and I think we'll jump into what collectors expect from the art market in a moment but I think just to ground us in a discussion a little bit wanted to start off by just understanding a little bit more about who these young collectors are and if there are differences even in the makeup of of younger people buying today and Paul I guess is our token young collector on the panel I wondered if you'd start us off by just kind of giving a little bit of history about how you began collecting what drove you into the market and also maybe if you have many other friends that collect and what that looks like yeah I guess I was always sort of generally interested in art but didn't come from a family that collected or anything so you know started with things that you know probably I knew that were more common like pop and photography but then had some friends that lived in the same building that started to get more into contemporary and it was actually at a Art Basel Miami like I guess eight years ago now that they were walking around with an advisor and once someone was able to explain all the meaning behind the works I just thought it was fascinating how much more was kind of beyond what you saw visually and it just became kind of an addiction from there and Jenna I think one thing that struck me and kind of our conversations and lead up to this is a kind of question of to what extent young collectors are coming from any different backgrounds and we've seen before you know we've seen a rise in particular in the last couple years in the markets for women artists and artists of color is that being driven by or driving in groups that haven't previously been so prominent on the collecting stage I think it's both I mean it I do think that I mean I'm also coming from a roster of artists that is very global very diverse so that's the kind of positioning that I come from already so I do think that our collector base has always kind of been that perhaps more than some other spaces but I do think that the more work that's shown that is by a more diverse group of artists naturally collectors will see themselves in the work more than previously and and feel as though there's an entry point that I think that has always been kind of problematic in the art world for people of color for women so I definitely think that that is that is driving I mean for me it's also deeply important to kind of foster those other communities for the longevity of the artists for the for the work for the market for the health of market for the health of you know avoiding trends per se or moments and sustainability for those artists so I think it's really important to to be committed to to growing those groups but I definitely think that it has a lot to do with kind of diversity of artists being shown that totally resonates I think as you said we need to continue to bring in new groups to a market to allow it to expand to support more artists out there Elena you know I think many in the art industry have been waiting for the entry of the the tech billionaires and I wonder if you've seen that at all and your new role particularly in online sales or any other industries of people that are coming into the market today thanks Alex I think that really online inherently makes work more accessible and really opens up to your graphic boundaries and that is clearly something that we've found and I think one thing I've stated in the past is that our top works have really you know by values sold to collectors where we don't have a gallery so in cities such as Tokyo Moscow San Francisco Houston Dallas for sure and so in a way working online and putting works into that contact opens up to a new audience to an audience of industries beyond just New York and do those individuals that you know it's an I guess it goes across the board but do those individuals have different tendencies or expectations from what you've seen or is it an experience level that I think go back to your original definition of what is a young collector it's for you know for us we look at someone who is beginning at the beginning stages over there collecting career and so age there is not actually the main factor it's really someone who is getting to know what is the art market learning about those artists learning and you know really trying to educate themselves in their entire practice in their price points in really learning about the medium that they work with and so I think that the online is very well suited to that but that's really just the first stage of a collector lifecycle in some ways as well that resonates with some research that we did earlier this year at art C where we surveyed around 4,000 art collectors and and found that you know one of the most important determining factors and their tendencies was how long they've been collecting and less so than age one of the other things I thought was really interesting in that research was that a lot of the main drivers of collecting today are quite similar to what they've been in the past and people are collecting for the passion they want to live with works and Paul that kind of brought me to you know you are known as someone who collects maybe non-traditional works of art but you have collected in a fairly traditional way and I'm you know I'm curious to what extent you think that that is the norm across other collectors of our generation or and kind of what made you chose to go down that path hard to say what you know other people and my pure said are doing though I do think there's you know a logic to you know buying things that you can fit in your house and live with I think I've always sort of been inspired when I see collections that are you know you know if you go to the Ravel museum or you know SF MoMA when you see the Fisher's and you see these big or monumental installations and that really capture you know what you know some of the artists best work might be and so in collecting younger and emerging artists I've always thought okay well in these moments maybe it's great to take a chance or poke deeper with an artist and acquire some of those larger works even if it's maybe something I can't live with immediately or have to rearrange my furniture so it fits um that's been you know part of what's kind of you know driven me as a collector to really get in deep with an artist and you know acquire the best works that I have the opportunity to do so that's just been part of my collecting logic I guess as it were so I've been willing to make you know spatial sacrifices for it would you say those other friends that you were living with early on that kind of got you into the practice that they are they collecting similarly or do they kind of take a different path I think sometimes I think they can be interested in the same things I do think there's you know you know over the last you know a couple years I do think that you know with more data with people following auctions more I do think there is it more tendency for people to care about you know what the intrinsic or inherent value of some of these works are and so when they think that things that don't fit on walls or don't fit in houses as easily or sometimes less you know resalable or that they'll be stuck holding it for a long time I think it sometimes as a preventive for them to go take the risk on some of those but I do think they still find them interesting but I think there's a difference between people appreciating a large work in a museum or meridians or wherever and actually deciding to acquire it we found a similar thing when we in our in our survey younger collectors I think we're much more likely than older collectors to look with a lens to perhaps not investment in terms of you know what's my rate of return gonna be on this artwork but a bit more of if it will hold its value and it's their potential for resale down the line I think you know there's been plenty of ink spilled over the financial realities of Millennials and maybe there's something there as well and I also wonder you know to the extent that these are people who may be reselling clothing on the reel reel or you know using something like Rent the Runway if that also changes behaviors and how they might act in the art world I guess you know when you think Jona about traditional collectors what's been considered to make a good collector certainly resale hasn't been part of that so as a gallerist how do you adapt to that desire if at all or are there I guess other platforms that are better served to cater to that need the desire to recently um I think what for me with younger collectors and individuals who are trying to learn on how to how to participate how to get access there's a lot of Education around what that means and the kind of safety of the work I think that for me transparency is really important with those kind of conversations I don't necessarily shy away from having a conversation about what the market is and what that means just because I think that you know that opacity kind of is a trigger for a lot of people as our weightless you know like confirm their deepest suspicions about what the art world is so I think it's just good to be honest about those conversations I think that it's good to just help educate on what a good collector is and why that's important and to like to really lean in and not be afraid to have those conversations no it's really explained I think that everything that we do and I believe in the reasons why we do it and I find that a lot of collectors are just not having those conversations with geleris I'm not learning how to why they're not learning the why they're learning that you do this or you don't do this but they're not really deeply understanding why that's the most important thing for the artist and and I think it's really important also for me to get to know collectors similarly to the way I get to know artists you know and I think that those relationships provide you know barrier and some safety in terms of placing work with individuals is their way you can kind of start to develop that relationship even if you might not be able to a place of work with them early on yeah definitely I think that's super important especially if they are interested in artists that it's just not going to happen for a while I would definitely I mean obvious I would like to introduce them to other work obviously but I just think it's important to engage and to let them know that we're still here and we can continue to have conversations in different directions and to encourage them to show up too I think that a lot of collectors need to kind of learn that that you got to show up and come and see shows and you know coming after two or three artists you know fiercely is not necessarily going to help grow your collection and help their relationship that we have it's interesting I do wonder to what extent you know that has been such a shift from you know a collector who might have a relationship with a couple galleries really collect across the platform to may be individuals who are going after a few select artists with a lot of demand Elena do you think that the the Internet has been a driver of that tendency among younger collectors or or and how do you kind of adapt to that in your program to step back overall I feel obviously that internet and this sort of age of much more connected digital culture and instant image sharing has created more unified sort of voice and everyone is sort of looking at the same thing at the same time we are sort of much more living in this global image economy constantly and so that has accelerated a lot of things and a lot of demand however I really agree to Joanna's point of I think building the relationship and one of the things that was foundational in how we started is in online sales you inquire and it's not a click to buy it's clicked to start a relationship with one of our directors and so when someone you know goes online and does inquire they actually get put through to someone who is a director or even partner at the gallery and I think that's a really unique opportunity to start by relationship and to learn and so I think that's really key in all of this is despite all the noise that really start to form those sort of deeper bonds and that allows you to to push them further into the program or I guess what you know yeah I mean I think that collectors have a lot of you know even accessibility to a program like ours but again you know they have an opportunity to collect from galleries and that are younger in the Lower East Side that are the same age as you know they are or they have an opportunity to also come and collect artists from our program who are still within their you know budget and online of course is an incredible tool because it has price transparency and it also allows for us to work with some of our artists and put together additions and multiples and one example of this was something we did with Josh Smith who is a very desirable artist and obviously had an incredible show and worked with us to put together an online viewing room of monotypes that were in the price range of you know 2,000 to 15,000 so really accessible got a lot of collectors excited and for some people was the first purchase that they ever made which was really neat and they're part of the you know David's Werner collector family now and they have someone they can call and learn from it again be part of our sort of you know kind of a broader group that can follow along some of these artists and this is their first sort of step in that direction I think it's a really interesting way of giving young collectors a way to get something on the wall from an artist that they really aspire to own original from someday what what have the artists reaction been to that because I think some sometimes I think artists are really excited about people who are buying their work for the first time I'll say that one over artists may arouse you know he his prints are still super excessively priced while his paintings obviously have a much higher value because he really wants people to be able to collect them he wants everyone to be able to collect them and when he you know such an established painter who I admire so much sees online viewing room and gets excited about that and wants to launch a specific print just for a sort of online that is something that is sort of an accomplished goal and then art of other artists in the program look to that and they see they see that and they sort of serve themselves start to think about what they want to do with the space oh I guess you know come back a little bit though I know in our era kind of conversation leading up to the panel you mentioned that is it seems harder to be a quote-unquote good collector today as a young collector than it might have been and I wonder if you could dig into that a little bit for us here and the challenges to collecting in depths that may be different that a young collectors facing today than in the past I think you know one thing that's different about you know maybe now versus ten 20 years ago is you know online and the speed at which information is disseminated around the world like you know you do have much more attention to things and you know the market and go to our vibe I think you know speeds a lot of things up so you know I've found it personally difficult to you know I might find a young artist start buying some work and in you know maybe two years I might find myself priced out of that artist whereas maybe before it would take five years or seven years so it's a little harder to collect in depth in the same way that I think people were into the past and I think when we go through various bubbles or something it's really popular or really hot then you know I think even for people that have you know great relationships with galleries and know the artists it can still become you know difficult sometimes to access the work just because the demand is so much higher and there are a lot of more people just in the market and I think the reality of you know younger galleries mid tier galleries having to contend with you know higher rents cost you know I think there is a financial reality where if they are able to price you know a younger artists maybe a little bit higher than and it still sells part of the economic reality means that they might have to do that even at the expense of either younger collectors or you know sometimes the artists if they're unable to st. sustain that price point and I think you've seen you know over the last five years a lot of times where someone's prices have gone up too quickly and it wasn't sustainable and it was bad for the artists and the gallery and probably collectors so it's a tough situation I think with a lot of different variables but certainly just the pace at which the market moves and how many more people are in there I think it's a very different collecting landscape than it was you know in the past it's really interesting what you mentioned around kind of particularly on the small and midsize gallery range that they have a very hard time investing in that kind of lifetime value of the collector Joanna you mentioned early in the conversation weightless and how you can you know work with a with a young person that comes in and wants the very in demand artists while also having that artists kind of best interest career development in mind I wonder if you could kind of walk us through how you make those trade-offs when thinking about developing a younger collector over time and and what's going to drive them I mean I wish that I had a better answer that I'd really think that we lose a lot of collectors that way you know I definitely think that there's a whole team of people who I haven't been able to and we haven't been able to to nurture and carry along because they came in looking or when two or three specific artists and it was it's just frankly impossible I try to manage I try to manage expectations be encouraging be kind with it but it's I think that that's it's a sad reality that I think we lose a lot of people I think those that stand out are the ones that decide that they're going to become really engaged with the gallery explore the rest of the roster you know continue to be in touch show up as I was mentioning and then we start to build a relationship and and I do think that we we do try to really encourage the younger collectors and we do think about them when we're thinking about where this work is going to go I just to make sure that collectors continue to build their collections that artists are a part of that so we do prioritize your collectors if there if we feel like they're really strong homes where this work can go it's not necessarily going to be the same kind of a weight because we do think it's important for our artists to have wider and wider collector bases so it's just that kind of balance negotiation and a lot of discussions and you know internally but also just trying to hold on to those collectors who we just want to run yeah one of the things that you hear about the most I guess looking at the wider economic landscape and how things are shifting or is the move towards experiences among Millennials and Gen Z and we're seeing that more and more in the art world as well you know I know you guys have a rather popular show up at the moment lines 3-3 our lines that's that's what I hear for Saturdays so I guess how do you think about engaging people in that more experiential way is that is that something that you see more among the kind of enthusiasts or those are there collectors who are really coming after you for something that they could live with in a more experienced real way - I think the experiential shift is an amazing opportunity for you know first of all just getting more people to see art and secondly for then possibly educating some of those enthusiasts to potentially then support and become collectors and for Kusama this is such a great example because right now obviously I am everyone's best friend in Chelsea right now because the lines are so long and you know it's been great to see the city sort of really come out and show up for the show but what's really impressive is then how institutions for example can acquire her work and one great example is that the Art Gallery of Ontario for example to buy the Kusama piece half of the funds came from crowd funding and that was something quite novel and I have gotten to know personally some collectors who actually just support institutions really are on museum boards but they themselves don't feel the need to have that level of ownership and actually attachment to the object hanging in their home but they are happy with sort of the benefit of being part of this community part of this sort of circle with people who are supporting and creating cultural moments and I think that's very very interesting and certainly in line with a lot of the other ships what we've seen toward sort of more experience over object I think I'm eagerly waiting to see what happens with paces pay sex initiative and kind of how they monetize these artworks in a new way and it's really exciting to see how that will bring in new audiences to art and also allow artists to make money off of their work that maybe has been a lot harder in the past that's something that you've kind of focused on Paul I know and you're you're collecting but I'm curious to do to engage with performance and experiential art as well or more so object based things I've definitely acquired you know several video type artworks other pieces involving probably sound that do you have experience real components I was considering one a piece by the artist that Tina Chagall which is you know consists all of performances sometimes performed by the collector and sometimes you know you have to hire a whole acting crew to put it on so you know I'd say I'm pretty open to some of those and sometimes I see you know a video or something you know I think performance is a little bit tricky because you know galleries museums that are still working through what does it mean to own a performance and how do you put them on to the artists specifications what happens when the artist is no longer around so I think there's some questions there about how do you actually own an experiential art but certainly videos and other multimedia type artworks I have a bunch one of the other things that we found in our research was that millennial and Gen Z collectors dude are gravitating more towards works that are engaged with their particular community or an issue that they care about and your honored your work with Four Freedoms or with rebuy gold I think that seems like a theme that you guys are latching on to it as well but does that have a commercial or art audience component to it I think that it does I think that it's about Mike Elena was explaining bringing people in and hoping that they become collectors I think for me thinking about the experience has been about thinking about how to build community and that experience of being able to participate in the art world in a way that is welcoming and inclusive and you know much wider landscape then I think many have felt has been the case in previous generations so we buy gold in both and Four Freedoms it's not necessarily you know to to make money but we're hoping to engage the audience with art and you know with we buy gold there was definitely more of that element than the super PAC totally different kind of conversations but yeah access was really really important in terms of allowing the space for able to come in at very different price points even if as low as you know merch and participating in that way I found that it really excited people cuz it felt like it gave them something to kind of latch on to to become a part of it and had so many conversations with really really young people who aspire to start collecting one day and really never felt like they had the access or were able to even walk through the doors comfortably so definitely yeah I was gonna say I think that it's also speaks so much that you know there is a generation of collectors who are influenced by music and all of these sort of art being much more prominent and whether it's in you know Beyonce videos or Kanye album covers there's always been a connection but now it's just you feel like much more and we all saw it you know over at the Dior show beside the Rubel collection is Tuesday as well it's interesting the more and more crossover that happens the more audiences are exposed that feel like art could be something for them and then I guess it's also and maybe to give it a little bit into what the industry could do slightly differently to address this audience it's about kind of you know how do we make them feel like okay I'm standing on the threshold of the transaction how do I actually start collecting you know curious if there are any kind of learnings in your since switching more into a direct relationship with collectors again it's Werner there have been any particular learnings on what's helped convert buyers particularly in the younger generation well the certainly key factor is having the right inventory and having really work that you know they are excited about but of course after that really timeliness has been a key thing and you know on my team we have we have someone who actually answers inquiries and our goal is really that when you inquire you are immediately you know introduced to one of these directors or sales partner in the way that you know collectors now expect with you know everything being so instant with uber everything all the apps that we use it's sort of just a new culture of immediacy and of course art should not be that but you do expect a response and so I think that in the past that was you know when I started at artsy we would see sometimes someone in choir and two weeks later you'd get a response and I don't think that's acceptable anymore with what collectors expect yeah we've certainly seen that since we introduced by now and make offer option on the artsy marketplace conversion has gone up significantly and the time to sale - I mean you know it's gone from a few weeks to a few hours on average and you know while I think for certain works that that back and forth with the gallerists and developing that conversation is really important for others it really is catching in that moment when the collector has intent when they're most passionate about the purchase you know another thing for us there has been public pricing you know we see that works published on to the platform with their prices public or between two and six times more likely to sell than those without and particularly on the younger and it just seems that people want to have the information they're readily available to make the decision I think public pricing is so key for younger collectors I mean even sort of starting out myself at looking at the art market how how is anyone supposed to know sort of what the value of certain work is if galleries are not willing to really be open about that and online obviously is a medium that allows for that educational component really allows everyone to sort of learn at their own pace and also really fill in the blanks but pricing is really something that has been consistent and key for us in all our online viewing rooms that we've done and so whether the object again is you know 2,000 or 1.8 million we will put it up there and you as a collector are able to start learning and understanding you know where that comes from but I think that's a mystery and a lot of you know my friends asked me how how artworks priced I it's so mystery probably Joe Paul I'm curious like how you developed your kind of education around that piece in particular around pricing and I think you as part of it is just I think comfortability but you know there's a lot more data that's available so even if you were to just you know look at a bunch of auction data I think you could definitely get a certain sense I think to really go into it and you know my background is in finance so it's probably easier or more feels more normal to you know match up artists v's track records museum shows size of the work the medium and think about okay does this price generally make sense in my mind versus other things that I've seen or artists that are at the same point in their careers from a expensive less expensive thing but certainly you know all types of factors play a role you know like if an artist only makes you know ten works a year that's gonna be a very different scenario than an artist that makes a hundred works a year so there's a lot that I think goes into price that you know I think is everybody has kind of said is it slightly opaque but when you you know peel back the onion it probably does make sense most of the time but you know I do agree with you know what Johanna was saying that it's it sometimes is hard to from both the gallery side and the collector side probably to have some of these these conversations I think when you're you have a relationship with a gallery and you're comfortable with them I think it's a little easier to to talk frankly about some stuff but certainly if you were coming to a gallery for a first time or buying your first work you might feel scared to even is it okay to ask for the price like if I ask for it is it embarrassing is some other than the laughs of me does that mean I can't afford it it's it's tricky yeah we certainly see that people are standing on the sidelines that would otherwise be buying if that if they could see it I think but it is it has been such a it's a relatively recent thing in the industry you know within the last 50 hundred years the prices got completely wiped off the wall and it was seen as kind of gauche but I I do wonder if it's kind of generationally this will this will change we move away from the Jen's II collector who might have better the gen-x collector I should say who might have been a bit more concerned with exclusivity and status to a different different generation joanna is it when you guys think about your online sales does that factor in at all or are there other things adjustments that you're making as as you interact online or with younger folks we're a little traditional in that sense I've met yeah I mean price transparency when we're having conversations of course but it's a constant kind of push and pull of trying to figure out yeah how to how to evolve but also hold on to a kind of privacy I have collectors who have gotten upset that they're you know the price of the painting they bought at the fair was in the newspaper for example you know in a market report and so it's kind of balancing that as well I think that that's still a reality for a lot of people and having a bit of privacy around that but when we do online sales I mean it's all via email and all of that becomes transparent but you have to start the conversation are the collectors that tend to complain when the price gets put out there are they do they tend to be the older more traditional collectors or is it across the board um I've actually had that experience with some younger collectors yeah I don't know what that means for the greater conversation but that's been the experience interesting Paul I'm kind of interesting more on a ground level there are there other other things that you've observed in your experience that have been a turn-off or other can real basic updates to gallery behavior strategy that you feel like would bring in more people like yourself I think it's you know mainly it comes down I think to you know the transparency thing that I think everybody has mentioned across a couple levels just sort of knowing you know sometimes where you stand in terms of you know obviously it's a system you know if you're trying to acquire something that a lot of other people want you know the expectation that you would get it just by walking in the door is you know probably not something that you could have but I think there is you know and I hear sometimes from friends that are also like you know you know I don't know what the definition of good collector is but season collectors and I think it's part of it is knowing that if you do the things you know correctly you know that you've known the gallery for a couple years maybe you've bought other things from the programs that you you know have a diverse collection that would fit well with this artist that you know there is a light at the end of the tunnel and that that's taken into account somewhere and I think I've definitely definitely seen situations where you know maybe this has been like a two-year ongoing conversation and the work comes and it's given to the Peter Brandt's of the world with nothing against Peter Bryant and it going to foundations or museums but if it never happens that one goes to a younger collector or a collector that's not a private museum it can be discouraging and I think certain galleries you know again with the transparency in the talking do have different levels of managing that and you know sometimes it's you know the economics of it sometimes it's someone's budget but you know I've definitely had galleries you know proactively say hey we know you're interested in this artist we know that the price level has always been a problem for you we're getting a key work that's on the smaller size maybe this is the one that you could do we could be helpful and maybe give you a payment plan something and I find those overtures from the galleries like really great and really show that it's time that you know we've gotten together and that it's well spent and that there is a relationship there and someone's listening to your interest and you know valuing what you're trying to do as a collector and trying to you know help you build their collection and you know the ways that they can I think it's a really interesting point it just in terms of you know not trying to fit all collectors into the same box and making it over to that I guess we're building this art world for - you know I think we do have a tendency as an industry to create a universe that suits the art news top 200 collectors really well and that is important for the artists career it's important for them to be in museums but I think everything that we can do - as you said have younger buyers feel like they are being seen and being recognized and being built for as well a little bit more user centric mentality can be really key I think that related something you said earlier Alayna about having to you you cannot get access to a work in the online viewing rooms if you don't inquire is it correct so I was gonna say it's actually basically to have access you have to inquire which for us has really been you know to step back just part of the initiative of really placing focus on this portal that we see as an access point for new collectors as well as international collectors and you know even for something as Miami online which is the current viewing room that we have up several of the works have sold to collectors we've never ever known that we're not in our database from you know just this week which is pretty incredible but you know to give you guys a statistic like 45% of our inquiries come from collectors we don't know who are new to the gallery but really the range and is really really full from someone who is buying their first artwork and they saw it through Instagram - the MoMA trustees and the you know our top 200 collectors but they all have to come through the channel and you know follow the same path and for us that's really sort of we make it that sort of separate space and really designate inventory and work and work with our artists to really make sure that it's thoughtful and a constant presentation do you have any sense of where that those 45 percent of people are coming from is it through social media is it through other means you would probably know that better from artsy having more data you know for us really all the sort of channels are our key and so email obviously is key social media organic search though those are all sort of entry points I have a question if you if you see it online and it says it's an inquiry because I just looked at your room like before the fair started do you do for people that have a relationship with the gallery is it should you email your current contact or should you inquire online you should still inquire online because it'll then go directly to your contact but it you know shows us that you've engaged and been to that space in some ways I feel like it we've built a much better PDF than just sending it by you know I always do you think it's funny when people say oh no I don't do online sales and then they're selling all these works via PDF in there um Oh before the fair that's the thing I mean it's really just the next step of a PDF of the JPEG sales but here you really get the extra narrative context and I think that's what artists really have engaged with and liked is being able to tell the story of the work and really share what their perspective is as well as provide that additional information which you know if you're getting a tour with someone like Jonah the gallery you get that but if you're not fortunate enough and you want to learn about one of the works in their program it's really useful for that yeah absolutely I think we're getting close to the end of our time so I want to open up to some audience questions feel free to raise your hand and then there should be two people with microphones that'll come around okay hello my questions to Elena you mention about transparency in pricing and my question is you don't show your prices on RT maybe Serena and why is that we have our pricing on our own portal because there you are entering your email and that is sort of one way that we welcome you and we sort of know who you are and much like you'll walk into a fair booth and start the conversation that is our way of starting a conversation with you I have a follow-up question to the pricing discussion I know that payment plans and discounts are theater Athiya reticle II available why I always feel sheepish about raising the issue because I'm worried about galleries won't consider me to be a serious collector if I do so I was just wondering the circumstances under which was appropriate or not appropriate to raise those two issues I think everyone should ask I think everyone should ask and it's always appropriate and every collector does so you should always ask it's not always possible but you should always ask and I think that that's something we've seen also in talking to a number of the providers that do those services ultimately frequently maybe not for an artist where you have a very long list of demand but whether it's in the art industry or not payment plans have been shown to increase revenues so people will generally be relatively open to that option i am i joined a bit late so i'm not sure if this questions already been answered but i've heard the phrase a good collector a few times through this talk and i just wanted to understand what your definition of a good collector to me the difference sometimes between someone that's collecting or versus someone that's just buying art and i think you know it's something that's made me feel good when people have come over to see my collection is that it has a sense of that person's personality whatever it might be that's driving them and i think there's a desire for those people that i you know consider good collectors that are you know you get this feeling that you know i probably have you know a half to two-thirds of say my collection installed at any given time but if a paintings not you know on the wall like a year later i might be like wow i miss living with that and so i think there's some kind of like intent that you're building something and it's not necessarily kind of buying and selling or there's you know a personality and its intent and like learning about the artist and for me it's also been that it's really become a part of my life and that I'm friends with a lot of the artists and the gallerists and a lot of my social life also now our hours are on the art world which i totally didn't expect when i started it but i think it's how the you know that you add your personality to what you're collecting makes it end up being you know a stronger collection versus just you know good art works can I add to that also and then I think we also think about like the willingness of a collector to lend work for an artist in you know institutional show or not to enter it into a speculative marketplace shortly after collecting the work so there are those kind of factor considered as well I have a question you had mentioned the difference or the variation between an artist that might create say 10 pieces a year versus someone that creates more than that or maybe more prolific I know there's no formula to pricing but are you suggesting that that that the person that only produces 10 is going to have a higher pricing point or maybe it's just amount of the inventory you know that they have accessible versus them having more because it's you know it's it's so subjective so is there you know can you kind of expand on that I think it's in the context of if you took you know in a very pragmatic way if you took two artists in the same medium that have the same amount of museum shows and the same amount of people that want to acquire both their works and one artist produces lasts I don't know if that would lend that it the price would be higher just as a flat yes but I think it would make it probably more difficult to acquire the works and depending on you know if the gallery to support you know working with that artist if they have a fewer limited works to sell you know the economics of their gallery it's it's harder sometimes when you know if you're gonna have a show with this artist and you're only gonna get a smaller number of works sometimes they feel that it's okay to price the works higher because the artist also needs rebuffed fewer works that they're selling or maybe puts more time into them okay and one other really quick question for artists that perhaps you know are individuals that aren't working with galleries or don't work with galleries on a consistent basis what are some ways that you see the newer generation being able to be approachable in a sense of you know kind of off-the-wall ways of exhibiting your work you know maybe it's not in the gallery so maybe it's somewhere else what other ways have you all seen people kind of think outside the box as individual artists in terms of exhibiting their work and trying to engage in you know different different groups of possible collectors introducing themselves getting known I think there's a long history of artists rent spaces that has been really really important to art history generally speaking and it's a really wonderful way for artists to build community collectively show their own work so that's something that I think is you know a really beautiful thing that continues online I think a lot of people do don't know so much about those spaces but it gets the thing I think there are also people that you know look at you know social media and likes and there are people that now I think support those types of artists where they feel that they can maybe they don't have a space but you know are looking to coffee shops public spaces hotels different real estate venues that art can be shown and are actually seeking out artists that don't have galleries but have followings other ways to determine whether or not they might you know be successful at selling their work and placing it in different venues outside of a gallery it's also I think a new thing that a couple people have raised yeah I think what I also just to follow up on your first question one important point is that with this question around scarcity there has been a tendency in the art market to hold back a certain number of inventory only releasing it over time to create this false sense of scarcity what we've actually found is that particularly among younger collectors having access to all the works that are available at any one time makes them more likely to connect with one individual piece because they are less inclined to engage in a lot of back-and-forth they want to be able to see it pick out the piece and buy it so it's there's a little bit of a counter move towards this like let's release one or two pieces a year and that's gonna prop up the price because it's a it's a passionate investment okay hi everyone this is a great panel discussion and you guys have pretty much validated a lot of things for me as a founder of art hub this arte heb we are an e-commerce our discovery marketplace for aspiring our collectors emerging artists and made small to mid-size art galleries we are an early-stage startup and we received a seed investment from the founder of the Home Depot and one of the challenges that we have come to is partnering with art galleries because they're afraid that we're going to disrupt their margins and their you know business model and that's not our intention so my question for you all is how can like what should our approach be or what advice would you give to someone like us that is you know trying to help and not harm anyone in this process we're just trying to democratize the space and make it more accessible for people to globally are collectors globally or spying our collectors to be able to define new new exclusive pieces or niche you know art pieces around the world in different markets that make art markets of the make sense I can take that from an artsy perspective since a cornerstone of our strategy since the very beginning has been to be a partner to industry you know we really believe strongly in the role that galleries play the way that they facilitate artists careers and really have the artists best interest in at the center and that's without them you know this wouldn't exist so I think it's really about doing the work of building up the trust over time working with the right people making sure that you just continually reassure the galleries that yes we are here to help and and having a business model that supports that as well of course helps I mean I one thing I'll add that I've heard from other galleries as well as you know with multiple online platforms as well as your own that is a resource of time management that so I think just showing a concept that that is going to be innovative and bring something new to the table or you know reach a new demographic galleries value that immensely and are very open to that and I think more and more are looking for those opportunities so it's really just about making sure that you know you understand the needs there and what kind of reach you offer says wondering what do you think of the fact that so you have more people going to museums now and more likely to go to museums and from the private collection side maybe it allows more young people to be collectors but at the same time democratizing a good art that is mainly a luxury good so do you think what do you think of this development what is from the perspective of young collectors and I I saw a report and I'm trying to think of where it was but that as more people visit the Metropolitan museum's website more people than translated into going into the museum and I think that sort of learning is really essential is that whichever way whether it's through podcast through online through you know just even discussions younger collectors are interested to learn and I think that's translating to them being very engaged in actually attending institutions and then of course there's sort of an image culture that proliferate and what's amazing is some museums you have something where it becomes viral such as Kusama and many people maybe have never stepped into that museum but are going for the first time and hopefully having a significant experience and learning something and going to be coming back because of that so whichever sort of way they get there it's really exciting that it is becoming much more part of the mainstream dialogue nowadays hi there um this question is mainly for Alina but would love the thoughts of others as well and so a few years ago at the same Art Basel conversations a very famous gallery owner said that he felt like what was happening in the Instagram world didn't really pertain to his world that his buyers were kind of distinct from that and I was really astounded as a young collector myself that someone would kind of a shoe that forum as pertaining to him and so I'm curious for you how difficult has it been institutionally to gain resources for your part of the organization and do you feel like the success of your part of the organization has expanded what some of the more influential gallery owners are willing to take risk with and do it in in the traditional gallery space I feel very fortunate that David brought me and to start this new team and you know obviously the innovation and focus on digital is very much at the core of the gallery's program and vision for the future and really for us that comes from a sense that we want to serve our artists and those are sort of the North Star and to be the best gallery for them we need to sort of also develop and adopt into the sort of future in whatever 10 or 20 or 50 years Beyond will look like which is certainly online is going to be a big part of so with that you know I feel that I sort of I've been very well received and it's been very integrated into a lot of the efforts that we've done also on focusing on a lot of editorial aspects and building out that team and really thinking about it as sort of an extension of you know the editorial part is an extension of publishing coming online and what we're doing on my team is an extension of what the sales team has been doing for a while and working with the artists to create shows and so in a lot of ways how we talk about it is really thinking of online as our seventh gallery space and you know it really has to be it has to be really a core belief I think to make it real but for our artists for everyone who works at the gallery really we think of it that way wherein we have dedicated resources such as you know whether it's assistants but as well registrar resources that go for working on the online space which makes it a priority for us and I think you know there was a question at one point of will the industry move online at all then when and now it's more like how quickly and I you know as more and more of the major galleries do make significant investments online that certainly helps but it's also just been seeing a new generation and more people get a lot of use out of it and the more transactions that happen online the less of that kind of opinion I think will exist you know galleries the most important thing at the end of the day is making sales as well as helping their artists so but it's funny because you say also you know when I first started at artsy I was I remember baking galleries for Images and you know I had to sort of convince people that we were not gonna just duplicate or you know carelessly put them online that there was an intent and how much the industry has shifted even in the six years since then is amazing and hopefully you've seen it as well a great time for one more question for you Elena question to you I've noticed that the bigger galleries the more innovative galleries likes Lerner and Hauser and worth you guys are starting huge publishing concerns there's a library there's a bookstore has that helped increase your sales or can you directly relate those sales of the books to increase sales and buying art that's a great question I I you know I would say there's not a direct connection but I think it comes back to the point of serving our artists and our collectors in the most meaningful and you know engaging way and certainly since since the gallery mounts shows that you know are really significant to an artist career and also can support shows that are you know broader such as the endless enigma which brought together centuries worth of art it really this sort of scholarly and publishing arm it is an important aspect of that so Lucas Werner has been heading that up and yeah and it's sort of you know it was really broad where it's everything from you know catalogs of shows to actually publications of you know books that are completely unrelated to our program but we culturally feel should be out there in the world and relate sort of to the core beliefs and then translating into something like the podcast which is maybe more digestible and engaging conversation and so that's sort of all holistic and we don't see it as sort of a standalone it's really part of all of the efforts that we do for our artists thank you all so much and thank you three of you for joining us thank you [Applause]

Channel: Art Basel

Views: 7,312

Rating: 4.9285712 out of 5

Keywords: Art Basel, Conversations, Joeonna Bellorado-Samuels, Paul Leong, Elena Soboleva, Alexander Forbes, Art Collector, Gallerist, Art Basel Miami Beach, Young Collectors, Galleries, art, artists

Id: Soepzsmi9B0

Length: 60min 32sec (3632 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 11 2019