Collectors Talk | 21st Century Collectors: Next Generation Approaches

thank you so much Stephanie and thank you Louise and thanks Adaline in the whole art basel team for inviting us here today for this panel I think one of the reasons why I was invited to moderate this session is because of Delfino foundations program entitled collecting as practice which looks at the politics of collecting the psychology of collecting and the philosophy of collecting alongside artists and curators we've been hosting collectors in residence in our space in London to complete the circle and look at the whole and wider ecosystem of the Arts these collector residences explore the role of collecting and collectors in society just as I work with artists explores the role of artists in society at Art Basel Hong Kong here in this room two years ago actually launched this program and since then we've had 13 collectors and residents including Lucian here at the end of to my left and Pedro Barbosa who will be joining the next panel here in this room the title of this session is 21st century collectors next-generation approaches it does indeed sound like the work of science fiction or the next episode of Star Wars but instead of Luke Skywalker we have Lucian instead of Princess Leia we have princess alia also new see.well collectors you know might indeed seem alien to some of us the panelists here are attempting to open up with the notion of collecting and collectors are what they can be and how the acquisition in stewardship of artworks has to go hand in hand with philanthropy with public education with advocacy as we were here today the term collecting means many things to many different people speculative investor type of collecting often receives a lot of press coverage way too much and it distorts the perception of art and it's real value whereas other approaches to collect those that are generative that are generous that are aspirational command to few headlines so one of the things we want to look at today is what collecting means for this the next generation the title of this panel indeed refers to what's happening here and now but what happens here now is a continuum of what happened before us and so also we're gonna do at the very beginning of this panels try and situate each of our panelists within this trajectory within this history within the possibilities of the future two of our panelists Lucian and tyranny Jindal Honda both are the next generation in terms of their families and their approaches of course they're as you learn today creating their own distinctive kind of path and journey from their familiar responsibilities whereas deep wound and allele Sanusi are forging their own future in response to this incredible potent past that we have around collecting and patronage so we're gonna pick and pick that a little bit in terms of notion of responsibility and legacy for this the next generation ok so let's start first of all with our panelists talking on the micro level the personal level what inspires each of them to do what they do before we go in and touch and try and address the much bigger questions and this will be a conversation this will not be presentational it will be lacking of some structure so imagine yourself taking a ride with us and meandering on different journeys and sometimes parking enjoying the scenery discussing a certain topic maybe circling back to take a new journey and sometimes and most importantly getting lost along the way that's what art brings us sometimes right the possibility to get lost and find ourselves so I want to start with Lucien who is the founder and director of Stefan Art Museum in Nanjing China because I know you very well solution I wanted you to start by telling us about your personal it's working your personal relationship to collecting and why it led you to set up your own Museum okay so good afternoon everyone for me the the experience is the most important thing for me I love working with architects I love working with designers and of most of our artists it's always that that commissioning that that working with them that experience that really drives me forward so it's not about buying something at the fair or buying something at the gallery because contemporary art is really not about the finished product you're the the whole thing leading up to that finished finished work is really what makes contemporary art most interesting so for me that I've commissioned architects artists for large-scale public installations and buildings so summary I mean the stephane Art Museum which is Lucian's Canal museum sits within Stephan art Park which is a project developed by Lucian and his father so I wanted you to kind of also talk about here the genesis of the art park which has included the commissioning of 25 buildings by some of the world's leading architects you know it is an arguably a collection of architecture but I talked about the genesis of it and also the responsibility you have now in terms of carrying forward going forth okay so this architectural Park was was was first initiated in early 2000 it was a time in China when all the cities are undergoing a great fast rapid urbanization process and there was a time when when developers clients don't really looking to don't really look for great designs but they look for cheap and cost-effective ways of building so we thought that it was it was a time when we really wanted to bring like great architects from around to do something to showcase what like truly what contemporary architecture is so we we commissioned 12 Chinese architects they had no opportunities at the time but there were great architects one of them got Pisgah prize in 2012 we had 12 international architects now we have three of them receiving Pisgah prize already so when we commissioned them they actually were like Steven Holliday Steve aha never did any projects in China it was his first first project in China which he did the Contemporary Art Museum for us Arata Isozaki the confidence center which he got physical prize just recently 2019 the newest laureate I think yeah basically to to respond to two kind of critical thinking about what China was at that moment and now nowadays is it's a much better environment in China a lot of people you know commissioned great architects great designers people more aware of what great artists work great designers but back in early 2000 it was a time of darkness I would say Thank You Alicia let's park there for a second and continue the ride with deep hoon who is an avid supporter of the Arts D shiz away from being called a collector and I think it's interesting because you know here sometimes it fairs you know I'm chatting to and in this case is mainly guys just gets to point this out and then I get a business card on the business card says art collector and like they really proudly kind of claim this title just nothing wrong with that I mean I probably claim this title and but you you've been kind of adamant against kind of taking on kind of that kind of like title so I want to ask you you know in terms of as a patron kind of what is your relationship kind of to collecting as a first point yeah first question so I think there are a couple of things you need to know about me before we tackle this question and the first is that my day job is with my family and we run a vertically integrated cotton textile and apparel manufacturing business okay so we work with farmers we work with you know workers and it's really not glamorous and we work with every single level of the income curve the second thing you need to know about me is that I studied philosophy at school and so I like really sort of big thoughts now after this question about why I am NOT a collector but I actually do agree that collecting can be a profession right is because I'm not engaged with the Arts in such a way and I'm not buying or acquiring art in a way that is deliberate enough to be considered in my mind a collector because a true collector is not just acquiring or hoarding objects right they're really trying to understand a position they're trying to create a type of archive of history of thought but through art and so that's why I am a buyer of art one day I may have a collection um but I'm not a collector you know and I think it's it's important to not just see we were always we talked about this a lot like the glamour the market etc but to think about art in the context of the entire world that we live in and not not Pidgeon yourself at least for me not to pigeonhole myself in that specific role of collector because I think again a great collector is amazing and they spend a lot of time doing their job and that's fabulous but that's not me so you and your family have not set up a foundation specifically dedicated to the arts you choose now to support a lot of arts initiatives can you tell us what some of those are and how you decide which arts organization to get involved with I am i I support several arts organizations and some of them I really just fell into I got really really lucky and early on I was invited to be on the International Council of MoMA then I was invited to be on the International Council of the Tate I was interested in performing arts and they asked me to join a committee around Performing Arts at the Whitney I support janati which I think if you have not been is truly a transformational experience and locally I support a chart archive because again I don't think it's necessarily about the art object it's about the context and the histories and also Asia art archive is wonderful because it's about the stories that we're not always looking at right and especially around Asia around contemporary are around Modern Art these practices are so new so I think they're doing a very important job and I recently also joined the board of West Kowloon which is the master statutory body in charge of building that Art District that will include M plus the Palace Museum as well as various performing arts venues and I think it's really interesting I mean I think what's amazing to me is to see how some of these great museums have been able to understand art for itself and to also present art in a new context and share new ideas about the art but also more and more engage with the world around the art so I'm a big fan every time I go to a museum I mean if the show is great and understanding how they're curating and presenting is great but understanding their education and outreach is very important to me in particularly in relationship to Hong Kong I think it's very important you know many people wonder I mean Hong Kong is one of the places with very high income inequality and in some ways it has wonderful social services and in other ways it's terrible and it's not a great place for the middle class why are we spending so much money on West Kowloon but in my mind we live in a world that is very capitalistic and market driven everybody is focused by money and over the last hundred years the easiest way to measure success has been through optimizing against that one point how much money you have the other thing that's happened over the last 20 years is the obsession with technology and that technology is gonna save the world right so biotech is gonna your cancer we're going to forever climate change so it's okay we're gonna be able to secand all of the carbon but really what we've not focused on is the humanities and people and what is really art about art is about a celebration of humanity and the expression of humanity through these wonderful works that are created so that's why I think West Kowloon is important to Hong Kong that's why I think art is important in a society that is changing and that is growing and even though you know we have many things that are going to happen in Hong Kong and many changes that need to be made and we're not there yet we cannot leave behind the aspirational and humanistic views that we need to shape our society thank you that's parked there the next journey we're gonna take is tyranny Jindal Honda very conveniently her name came up on the board here tyranny is the creative director of jsw realty in Mumbai but she's also actively involved in her family's foundation jsw foundation tyranny what is your personal relationship to the arts and collecting stem from I agree with Lucian and II actually I don't think I'm a collector at all I think I you know I buy out but I don't do half the research a collector does and it's very instinctual to me and if I like it I also like the stories behind the art and I feel like I like buying living artists because I can interact with them go to their studio visits and understand the story cuz often the artwork changes with the story for me and so I don't call myself a collector as well and I agree with Lucian because I think India's at that stage right now where China was maybe in the early 2000s where we are commissioning international architects we're trying to build a better India and I feel with my small company right now we're trying to use design thinking to build a better India and your family there has been very influential in terms your own journey kind of into art could you tell us a little about the Family Foundation itself and some of the types of activities it's been supporting sure so my grandmom actually started a center of Arts in the eighties in em debarred where b bd'o she is from the put surprise winner and he built it for her and it's a public project and it's a residency but it's also a center which you know has built a lot of indian artists and it started from there and then my mom started art india which is a magazine which has been running for 22 years it's the oldest running magazine in india and it's almost like a journal which has historically you know which has archived Indian art and I feel very responsible now to like take on this journey and we're building a residency in the next year which we're very excited about I think you were gonna come back into a lot of jsw work because I really want to talk about context later on and how you each responding to a different context you know from Hong Kong to China to India and now I'm gonna use canal EOS a new C onto the panel she may not even need introduction to some of you because she is the VIP rep for kind of Art Basel but she's also so heavily involved with so many organizations around the world not just philanthropically but strategically and really helping them to kind of like think about kind of engaging young patrons and also how to make a real difference by engaging new audiences on top of all of many accolades and titles and boards and committees that alia sits on she's also gonna be called a doctor very soon somehow she's completed a PhD in her sleep she's video now she does it but anyway alia you know we see you tirelessly working for the arts but I wanted to key to give you the first question to just to say why like what is your personal conviction why are you totally working in this particular kind of like domain and it's quite as quite a simple question but we've never heard you kind of speak yes so I'm actually really enjoying being a member of a panel at our Basel rather than moderating so it's actually quite fun to be asked questions and I you know I think I probably have to come up with a better phrase of this but it's I have really drank the kool-aid and I think that art changes the world I believe with every fiber of my um and you know aaron has been a big part of my personal life journey um as well as obviously professionally in the arts and I was deeply affected by you know kind of for me the kind of great disasters of 2016 brexit I live in London and the election of Donald Trump and it I think brought home so many thoughts of the world - we live in a world yes where people you know have a great deal of wealth there is so much disparity in terms of the things that we are involved with but then the audience's that see them you know these incredible initiatives you know what we're seeing here of seafang and India is one of my favorite countries ever in the world I actually dream of wearing a sari every day so I think being on this panel does represent that it's these experiences these moments of how we can change the world through art and culture yes our Basel is an Art Fair where you know we want our galleries to sell and to find collectors and to find homes for the works that they have in the halls but it's also about bringing people together in these conversations and creating a platform for institutions you know I work very closely with LACMA and you CCA separately we have brought them together for a celebration tonight there's not a direct art project related to that but it is something that I feel having fun and enjoying your moments together is also very much a part of collecting so I have been asked are you a collector and I really am NOT because I don't I mean I live in London so we also don't have the luxury of very large spaces for homes I'm actually even considering every time I go to California I just like want a closet but collecting art and experiences I mean this is ólafur a liason in the in the Tate Modern Turbine Hall and bringing people together in social settings breaks down those barriers and then leads to something you know I think each one of us has met in a social setting and then you know goes on to do incredible things you know based on those conversations it's probably a good segue for you to talk about your work in supporting well actually generating kind of young patrons for institutions you have one of the founding members of Tate young patrons for example so in London for quite a few years it kind of came second to New York in the sense of creating these young patrons groups I was brought on board after our we had a very you know inaugural chair the first the founding chair of the young patrons and sometimes being the second chair to something is a more difficult task than being somebody who's like building upon a much longer legacy because that first person has been so important to the creation of that and I'm sure you all feel it that in terms of even your family businesses and what you're you know it's hard to follow something and it's also extremely hard when you work with government institutions and I've seen the difference between London and the US and actually D can probably talk about m+ here because you know m+ is a government institution I don't even know if I'm allowed to say the words West Kowloon I mean like literally government is that you know yeah and so yeah and Tate felt that it's what to say well know like these are really interesting it's fine for people to want to join a group just to be social because actually they're giving money to an institution and they learn how to be philanthropic and then you have the other side of like young professionals in the art world it's okay for a dealer to join the young patrons and try to find clients because that's also part of the ecosystem so I think breaking down those barriers in terms of how Western institutions in particular see the new generation has been a big part of my life but then also on the middle east side you know working with is just like the you know guggenheim abu dhabi you know founding member of the middle east circle for the guggenheim was actually about bridging content between a Western perception of the Middle East and what the Middle East actually is and really thinking about how art changes the world Saudi Arabia women can drive people you know kind of try to somehow denigrate that as oh well that should have happened before but it didn't and it has happened now and it's incredibly important and it has changed how do you rate and that's an important thing and it actually has to do with a lot of artists activists let's park there and on the subject of driving into an women driving and started like another journey together because as you can see all of our panelists are incredibly busy bees doing a lot of a work and I have an analogy about the art world that you can divide it up into into butterflies and bees and follow me with on this logic you know in terms of like butterflies being these captivating beings that you see fluttering about in the art world like we see them flood in the real world but we don't really know but but about butterflies are actually for like what's the importance of butterflies they serve some kind of purpose which is not really sure how important they are to the environment butterfly effect exactly yeah bees we know what bees do we know why they're important to the environment you know we know they're about cross pollinating about making our life sweeter although it might have a little bit of a sting but we also know that bees are becoming extinct globally and that has a catastrophic effect on all of us so we need more bees in the art world you definitely need more bees in kind of like the world world because we are teetering right now in a constant state of flux politically economically environmentally there's real issues that relate to each context in which our panelists are working in and so on honey that's incredible and I think that's what I want to do now with this panel is actually look at the role of institutions and a role of all of you in these contexts and how and what can we do to read intervene or raise awareness of some of these kind of major issues and what you have already been doing let's start with Lucien and I want to go back to Stefan and back to the art park and back to thinking about kind of like China several years ago or what oh wait you started this project ten ten years ago right and the technology didn't even exist for some of the ideas that the architects came up with you had to literally wait and work with fabricators in and in the construction industry to develop these buildings could you talk about now go further around the impact that stuff on art Park made and can you see a relevant change okay can I make an advertisement first because I forgot to say that you man first sure yeah I have my so my collection and a few other really really good Chinese connection is right now a private collection is right now on view in the Hong Kong I Center the the curator there did a really good job picking so I was born after the eighties so they picked ye whose was this amazing collector who has some of the most important conceptual pieces from the 80s and 90s Chinese contemporary so he was born that 70s and then coming Liu fadeaway who's a bit early on and then John Howe who has to how Museum in Shanghai so everybody if you see that show because they're they're all divided into different sections if you see that show you can see that different generation collectors are responding to different generation artists it's very interesting that we like I said we work with their artists so so we kind of you know at the end we work with artists like similar to our age similar to our experiences similar to our the way that we feel so yeah go see that show best cure it is show Hong Kong right now all right I don't know that well in the show you also have models of the some of the buildings that have been kind of built to connect I kind of go back into the right do you enjoy working with like the process of working with the artists and architects a moderator or like some collectors don't like the interaction right right right obviously yeah I think for me I'm the kind of collectors people not calling them collectors on this panel banner producer who like to work with the artist yeah you know I I have to say I never actually write a check at a fair like immediately so it's always about conversations it's always about getting to know their artists getting to know the work so it it takes time and and if you see the collection and I have up at the Hong Kong our Center you'll see it's a it's a very different collection it has architectural models it has archives it has things that you might not see as like that you would perceive as real like artwork I love a lot of it is a historical I wouldn't say historical I've only done this for for less than 10 years so a lot of it is like archiving things that that the museum and also I as a collector to working with these artists so yeah and people are confused if they see the show but but I think that's how I work that's correct I'm just gonna push it my question about context and China and what you done with Stefan not only I mean in terms of like developing technology to realize these projects but also in let's now move it on a little bit further and connect with kind of what alia was raising engaging artists on the site itself in working with other projects and other historical buildings that have been like the festival you did about two years ago I came from the name of it now you know talking about yes and the impact that makes in a community that has of course other pressing needs right okay I actually just open an architectural show in the museum right now with Steven haw so and I found that people are more interesting architecture I'm not sure if that's the case I was whereby in China we have a lot more visitors for architecture show rather than our show so so you know speaking also from my experience I think art is very personal of course what we did with the architectural Park and and the art shows we want we want to let more people but you know that that moments in art doesn't happen all the time but you still have to show it because you got to see more art to have more moments like that for me I you know there were a few key moments in my experience of looking at art that really touch really touch me and I think these are you know very important so when you say why do you collect art it's really about these moments that I don't like socially engaging art I don't think art should be used as a tool to do anything else but I'm not saying that it doesn't work because an artist will be a good artist will be both socially engaging what also touches your heart and art is never simple an art is never direct so it should be in that confusing moment that that you feel the power of art so you know architecture is the same architecture nowadays donc down on the computer Steven Holl always uses watercolor to visualize his ideas he paints about five or six watercolors every day every time every morning he wakes up he starts painting so like Frank Gehry he will use models I mean sculptures but Stephen always uses watercolor to visualize so I have to say he's an artist the things that he does the architecture he does sometimes not very easy to use I have to you know the museum is super hard to use because I don't know the the photo is before this but it has a lot of oblique walls and it's extremely difficult to hand painting however we manage to a great painting show last year we built some really beautiful false Wars but the the building is extremely difficult to use and I would say the building is a sculpture by itself and it's something that Steven draws up and that becomes the work or the sculpture so it really touches you it's not these computer-generated architecture it doesn't touch you anymore that's how I feel yeah movement is kind of tiring you talk about India in the context but also what kind of touches you in that particular kind of like place I mean the foundation jsw does a lot of other initiatives beyond just the arts its health its sanitation it's a education could you talk a little bit about those initiatives and then you could could you bring them together in an arts project probably the public toilet is actually the most kind of interesting one Innes I'm sure so you know we weren't very large country with it and we have a huge responsibility and so our foundation does a lot of things from sports to health care sanitation education and I try and fit an art where I can so my brothers just started an Institute for training Olympic athletes and I went in and got the street Art Foundation involved and we painted all the walls we got the community involved we got the athletes involved and we really like sort of made it a happy space because I think art is also really happy it shows up a space color you know form function it all comes together with the toilet again like Lucien was saying architecture and art in my mind are very similar so we had the opportunity but it's a public toilet on marine drive which is a main promenade in Bombay and it's the largest Art Deco promenade in the world after Miami and we went in and we built this toilet which has been showing on the screen in court and steel and it actually looks like a sculpture and people now come and take selfies there and so it's very interesting to marry the 2d you're a champion has so many different causes you know beyond just the arts I mean is everything from sexual health to environmental issues how do you make sense of these and because I would be great to kind of hear how you use your position your influence your interest to be more impactful and is art the right arena for that or is it for you via your day job yeah I think it's you know one thing I didn't mention earlier is that our company has the mission of making a difference and that we have two main goals that we want to address one is if you think of apparel factories you think of sweatshops so economic development and treating people well so that they can grow and make a fair living in a great environment and the other is climate change because that's it's textiles and apparel are not the second most polluting industry in the world but it's pretty high up there the apparel industry though again like it's the fashion industry I come from a very creative background I I i fell into the arts as a child when my mother brought me to her painting group with a group of local hong kong artists and i think you know it's easy for me to understand because i go to a work place that is so mission driven that is so obvious about the views the specific SDGs that were into you know who we have gender we have equal pay or good workplace and then we have climate change in action and then we have sustainable production and consumption then you start to see the world in a different way but you realize that there's no single solution and there's no single answer to any of these it's about an ecology and i think the reason why arts are so important to me is exactly what you guys just said that it's not leveraging the art against a cause so it's not like although you know it's wonderful i've heard stories about art being used in refugee camps for mental illness for so many different causes where you know they bring use art to bring things out i really believe that great art touches you and changes the way you understand the world right and so again going back to alia who was very famously able to create a channel a young patrons group with an entire group of people who had never been there including me when you actually go right and you see whether it's the Robert Irwin or the Judd boxes in this context you have a completely new understanding of nature and of our relationship to nature and materials and Technology and the world and so I think that every single piece of you know information we live in a world that's just there's so much information and everybody's a specialist right but really what we all need to be doing or not all but some of us need to be the bees and try to understand how we can learn something here and learn something there and bring them together to drive towards that bigger master goal right and so I I'm very much for and helping with and being engaged with very specific causes whether it's education whether it's syphilis prevention whatever it is because all of these things teach me certain things but then the bigger question is how do I bring it all together and there's just no single answer but there's also so many ways that they all just cross pollinate together great Molly you're also involved with so many wide-reaching initiatives most recently the Milken Institute could you talk about relationship between art and social change within you're gonna like work well I think the kind of overarching theme of everything we've said is that none of us want to be defined by one role in our lives and you know even here it's so hard when people like well what are we gonna put on your on your title I guess I don't know put patron I don't know like whatever you think Louise and I think each one of us you know has something here we know we've written you know some professional titles others not because we of our generation I think everyone wants to do many different things and exactly what Dee said was you know bring together these experiences whether it be you know travel moments you know art travel art tourism going to Marfa is so special I mean Marfa Texas is unbelievable and you know I have traveled through the South I half-american my mother is actually a white American but we have felt very deeply about trying to understand the african-american experience you know a part of Aaron Aaron's heritage and his part of the world going through Louisiana and going through Mississippi and I was in Memphis Tennessee we were you know having dinner and they were like oh what are you ladies doing here like oh well we're on a road trip we're going to Mississippi they're like Mississippi just drive right through go straight to New Orleans and so that kind of attitude is so nassima to me and actually the opposite I think of what everyone in this room believes and what definitely all of us on stage believe the experience is important and bringing those experiences to the mundane I think the public toilet is one of the most incredible things I have ever heard and I had no idea you know until you know you're showing us and telling us this and so I think art and social change is about the first world yes but it's very much about about the rest of the world and it's about making the first world appreciate and realize the contributions and the change that can be effected in the third world and being open to it actually wanted to bring harmony back in because you know we're you know we're speaking here about you know the mobility that that we have the privilege that we have to for example go to go to Marfa you're some of the participants in the projects that you're engaging with don't have that opportunity you know but you're bringing incredible kind of like art projects to them and I'm thinking very specifically about Dharavi slum the India's largest slum and the incredible public art projects that you've done in the slum but also in the city and could you talk a little bit about that experience and the impact that had that has bringing art to kind of like an extra making to be a real engagement let's talk about that aspect of it like not parachuting artists in but being a real engagement with the communities they're sure so again with privilege comes responsibility but I think all these things are really important you know to travel to experience to see the world and to give those again those experiences and then share it so we did a project with the terribie slums which is Asia's largest slums when we were 30 artists from all over the world but not only did we bring them in and we started painting but we lived in the community we brought the community to us we created art groups there and the project is still on so even though the artists have gone back to their respective countries the project doesn't stop because it's a large area and it has to continue and we've developed artists in that area we've created art rooms that there's the therapy Biennale now so you know it's created a lot of interest in that reach in that area of Bombay so so that was one of the projects and then the second project we did was in Sassoon dock which is a dock where they're about two tons of fish that come every day and it's smelly and it's horrible and no one went and it's in the center of our city and no one used to go and it was this beautiful dilapidated warehouse so again we went in and we created like an exhibition space for two months we took it and we had two and a half thousand visitors every day so there's really internationally famous artists jr. he did he he took photographs of the community and has posted it on the whole facade of the building and really involves the community to make it their own because it is theirs and all we're doing is just making it accessible to the rest of the city is interesting kind of talk about these kinds of initiatives because sometimes you know art is pit up against kind of like social causes so it's like you support the refugees or you support kind of like you know an art project you know or you know there's a sweet line in the middle right artists jeez yeah so I mean I just want to go back to Ali and ask her how does one kind of respond to these urgencies like you know so for example at Delfina foundation we have this program called the politics of food and we're in a process of producing a book that looks at 80 residency's we've done over the last three years with artists to engage with food politics and you know we were you know trying to raise money so we're not just of our very dear patrons asking for support and one of them responded oh well right now - such a big refugee crisis in the Middle East and I'd rather support that then support kind of this book and which of course says I can't compete against that but I began to think about what the book actually is it's an archive it's analyzing all the issues that led up to the refugee crisis is looking at the conflicts that took place in kind of 2011 the genesis of what was the Jasmine kind of revolution it became the Arab Spring that became the Syria thing we're looking at this and I and you know it is important that we kind of document these stories right that we don't overlook those but there are real pressing needs to that we're facing on a day to day basis so how do ya the most common things that you get in certain parts of my world let's say in the Middle East and especially in places that you know have just newly understood the power the impact of the international art world you know there are places that have deep heritage but have not really engaged you know internationally yet and they'll say well we need to build roads in schools before we you know spend money on a on a museum or a work of art or public sculpture but actually know it goes hand in hand and you know these moments where you have people living and of course you know kind of sometimes deep isolation even you know you can live in a slum but feel very disconnected to the rest of the world you can go to a cultural institution that is yours I mean two of my favorite conversations with taxi drivers one was in London where he you know it was like I don't really like at all anything that goes in this this meet because he was dropping me at the Tate Modern and he's like I don't really understand or like anything that goes in there but you know I'm really I'm really happy this is in my city and I was like okay great explain and because he says this is a National Museum and it makes me proud to be a Londoner and it makes me proud that people come here so these institutions are a source of pride for people in their own communities because it belongs to them and you know the same Dallas you know on one of also my southern road trips going to Marfa the cab driver said oh you're because we were going to Cowboys Stadium and cowboy stadium is not public but it kind of is because you know the cow I the captor is like oh you need to check you're here for the game you need to go check out the sculpture in front of the stadium he had no idea we were our people he thought we were literally just going to the football game so to have moments for the public it is not just an accessory it is a necessity and it makes them feel proud of their city I think it makes them you know work harder it makes them okay to give their taxes if they know that their taxes are being well spent on something that they they believe in in that they own and so then I think it is up to institutions to be very responsible I mean you know Delphina Foundation is a part of a community and you bring together so many of those institutions and break down those barriers for London but for the world I mean one of my favorite experiences was I did a whole five hour walking tour of London with an artist who had never been there and he was visiting from Lebanon and he was so sad we walked you by the houses of parliament we walked you know down the Thames across the Millennium Bridge went to Tate went to Borough Market and it was like understanding the context of culture within a city essentially you raised it because I often use as an example with people when I'm tell what what patronage is that is not just money that it is time it is care its attention its networking and connecting so much of that and I should actually use that example of you in that artists actually very often and that was probably seven eight years ago this happens one of my favorite experiences I've ever had I'd love to you know repeat and actually many times when talking to young patrons alone and I say you don't need to write the big check give your time like you know we're trying to actually Institute at Tate something actually I think is gonna be brought to the IC about asking for volunteers from the patrons of the donors they want to feel more engaged and we need their in halogen experience Lucian I want to talk a little bit about kind of patron just kind of here in China there are over 300 private museums right private museums in mainland China I've heard it that's just a stick before move even more even now someone's done a growing Holi of it and growing exactly can you talk about kind of the role of the private museum in the context of cities and also in relation to kind of patronage it's both an opportunity but also somewhat of a problem - okay there was a report a few years back saying during a span of three years there were 2500 museums built in China yes but most of it is public so China has been building a lot of museums on all different levels municipal level provincial level county level and and actually none of it maybe only one is dedicated to contemporary art so most of it is like crafts like antiques local culture all of these things so in China most of the contemporary art patronage are kind of shouldered by private initiatives we've seen I don't know if there's 300 but maybe the that's like different topics so if we could contemporary art I would say the good ones are about 10 around 10 or all across China so so the you know so for contemporary art you need to support right for the other things you don't need the support you just want to show so government wants an audience so they will put antiques you know whatever that they but for contemporary you really have to suppose we're talking about patronage because we're working with their artists the art they'll have to make something and they need money they need support they need exposure they need relationships so all of these things I think private initiatives are kind of taking on to help artists in terms of patronage is there also somewhat of a I'm trying to think of haven't really phrase this question but okay well let me let me I'll go back I was in Beijing over the weekend and it was Beijing gallery weekend but I spent a lot of my time going to independent spaces artists run initiatives small studios that are under dire kind of like constraints Institute for provocation in Beijing is losing its space it's being kicked out in probably 15 days they have nowhere to go they do incredible can like residency programs in studios so you have these kind of very fragile independent artists run initiatives and then you have these huge money to private museums that seem to be a big gap in between kind of these two things do you think there could be some kind of model that would I don't know create more of a even kind of ecosystem or some kind of partnerships that could be bridged between kind of these kind of private initiatives I mean they're all private I mean but we talk about big private in very since very small can like kind of fragile project about the grassroots effectively here are there examples or could there be like in your mind could you envision a sham has an example I know Shanghai more well we've seen a you know a huge income of Western IP so Western Western IP as a like big names in art so every Museum every other other big private initiatives want to show these more famous Western artists now in China instead of given their money to Chinese artists who are in more need of these money I wouldn't say it's good also like if you look at Hong Kong are pazzo the the the local the Chinese gather the Chinese Hong Kong Taiwanese galleries are kind of I have a feeling that kind of pushed aside with all the you know big galleries coming taking center stage we've seen that for many a few years now [Music] so what I did you know I'm always you know thinking about how this is you know how we can help the system we did that talking Shanghai a couple of years ago I open I demolished my home nation high and used it as a space like like a gorilla's space for young Shanghai based artists and it was on doing westbound time it was on doing 0:21 time so you know all these international guys they come to shore they don't want to see Louis Padron like you know but you know they want to see like really interesting local artists but nowhere to be seen something for like and I've kind of the basic education revamp I mean I think actually one of the things that I mean at least I know I'm not involved in and I would love to be and I hear very little people involving themselves is in like just basic art education and great schools and I think that you in the Middle East that would create a generation of collectors that would create a generation of patrons would create a public that wants to see their own art and their own culture rather than I mean in the Middle East it's the same they like to see the big Western names are so excited about Picasso or the Rembrandt or you know this and it's not appreciating you know kind of the community that they have around them so maybe we should all be you know volunteering in like an elementary school I mean like all you were seeing art takes us there right it takes us to different places to see different art so art shouldn't come to our doorstep I think we should really go make an effort to see it right so all these fairs were while bringing all the art to our doorsteps I think we should do collector fair instead of an art fair collector fair meaning that collector go to ends of the world to you know to see artists studios instead of the work being short affair it really doesn't represent anything right just just just like but also maybe one initiative is that we all go on a trip or you should join one of the ICS or the acquisition committees at any of the major museums and you can do that but I think as all some rent collectors come here and being able to chance to soar to Shanghai as we were saying I'm able to kind of see connect Studios in that context I mean in Beijing is very interesting when we did a tour I went with an artist who formerly did a residency at Delfina but if I'd not had him I would not have found any of these spaces someone even signed postage there was this but when you got in Tod it was so there was definitely a magic there a spark and you can see that this is where like the next generation of artists are being created for the private museums but they're barely making things happen and they're getting pushed out of their spaces so it would be great to think about kind of how what role this the next generation can take in kind like supporting kind of these kind of more kind of grassroots initiatives you ever comment products I did the the residence program last year so I have 15 artists actually they're all from Shanghai one artist was from Japan so all these 15 local Shanghai artists wanted to leave Shanghai to go to Nanjing to make works you know I think Tony could you tell us about kind of patronage in India and you're part of the fika patrons which is the foundation for Indian Contemporary Art and it's the at the moment the only contemporary art patron group in the whole of India could you talk about being part of that group and kind of what it's trying to do to engender kind of the next generation of patrons so I think a lot going on in India there's Kochi there's the sub Park and contrary to the Middle East and China I think Indians we love Indian art and we actually patron Indian art I don't really buy international art I you know buy primarily Indian art and I think the galleries are doing a fabulous job with the way they educate they talk we do studio visits it's very accessible they're very very helpful to the young collectors they educate there our gallery we cans every Thursday is like a gallery night where it's open to and you know and they're very sharing and I think that's why the patronage is only growing in India because done amazing work we do trips together we that talks and lectures and it's it's about education like Ali I said you know but also the support is going towards actually enabling scholarships for artists residency's you know it's a whole range of other things that you're also witnessing at the same time you know now there's a video art award this is the first time at the fair we supported the performance peers so it's but I I feel like we still need a lot of international support a lot of people don't come internationally to the India Art Fair or to India in general I think we're a little bit behind in terms of that but otherwise within India I think patronage is growing and we're really all proud of it thank you I want to get a like a feel for questions from the audience just raise your hand if you have a question right now just like a sense of timing I see two hands I'm not gonna come to you now I'm gonna ask that the call them I'm coming I'm coming because Stephanie we have 20 minutes left SEC yeah cuz I thought they said it would go to like Amber but it hasn't that's why anyway perfect okay so uh because we were talking about your individual initiatives and we also talked about kind of what's inspired you to get engaged with the Arts I want to know who's inspiring you now of your generation so let's think of other examples that other people who are not here completing the circle you know who should also be on this stage I kind of want to hear from you each of you like one example of someone who's it's or an initiative that's inspiring you that kind of gives us a sense of possibility about what's forthcoming in the next generation is one so the person probably the other person besides Erin who really kind of helped me through a very that my very dark period of November 2016 was Courtney Plummer who is a senior director at Marion Goodman and is a committed advocate as a political activist she dragged me out of my like a deep depression and took me to the women's March in Washington and you know we didn't do anything else but like March in Washington and my mother was you know who's also was also deeply affected but it's just like going on the women's March really you're gonna fly from London for two nights and you're gonna be in DC what does that really do does that really change things and now we've seen the change that's happened in terms of the amount of women running for office the amount of women who are just joining their school boards who are joining their local community initiatives and that is a direct result of the women's March so I think sometimes we do forget just like physical presence and what we were just talking about now before that's like travel yes it's fun yes the art world is great but it's you know it's also a hard work and being present in the moment it's exhausting all the time but it's so integral to actually making a difference so for me I would say has to be and I want to tell all of you we're starting an international patrons initiative for Planned Parenthood which for any of you who doesn't know is one of the most important public health organizations in the United States that is under a severe strain by the current administration and provides integral services to particularly women's health but you know wider health initiatives in the US and in the rest of the world so come find me join like--yeah d since we're in an art context I guess I'll stick to someone who truly inspires me in the art world and I think I must I'm gonna have to say it's Claire Shue and Jane de Beauvoir and again Asia art archive they have a booth here it's P 7 outside they have an amazing talk program all week I mean you know we live in a world I was talking to somebody today why there's so much more patronage in the art world verse in the visual arts world versus the Performing Arts world and it's because there's an asset right it's interesting to think in the West especially in the u.s. being a patron buys you status it buys you certain things in Asia I think in England it's just sort of starting but historically you know you give enough money they give you like a knighthood or whatever um but but right I mean let's be college education we live in a world where we're it's so driven by the asset by the work and what Claire and Jane and Asia art archive have set out to do is to collect the stories and to go and engage around Asia and really like they go everywhere and to not just focus on the big names but to go and understand like this Indian woman and the women in India who burned themselves right around very obscure but politically and socially sensitive aware and thoughtful and thought-provoking art gonna catch off because no because I want to bring in last year's presence by Asia art archive here Art Basel Hong Kong with the guerrilla girls and that inspired you so much that you started initiative with a several of the people with HR archive - and so we started and anyone who wants to join us please do um you know so AAA last year brought the guerrilla girls and I think last year was a big first it was the year of women in post women's March and then it became the year of the plastic straw but right but but so they brought the guerrilla girls and everybody realized it's like you know guerrilla girl 9% of museum collections are women a actually went through their own archives only an AAA is a female run organization 9% of AAA's archive is women and so we we we decided was like okay well what can we do and so we just we start a small opening fund and I can't remember the real name of it anymore but it's going to creating more women in the archive and I think this also goes back to the point that you know when we spoke earlier Aaron said to me you know Ali is so wonderful she just goes and she finds the patients and she brings them in and I'd never been to janati I you know Ali I told me about and I was like you know what that sounds amazing and I will support and then I finally went and then I was like oh my god thank God I'm supporting such a wonderful institution the way I did eh-eh-eh Women's Fund I got six people who'd never been to the archives to do it and again they they they've never thought about this problem right they've never understood their own community we're all so obsessed by Kusama by an you know Anish Kapoor whomever it is mark Bradford but again like so many of these artists are also dealing with social issues but we're not engaging with our own communities and so I think it's really a question can I say about the women's issue because it's something that you hear often well you know I'm just so sick of this like creating a woman's story at these institutions and it's not creating something that wasn't there it's looking at what you've ignored because of your own bias your own you know view and that's even you know somebody like me it was never present a front of mind okay but and I want tyranny and Lucien to quickly respond to this question get your questions ready we're coming to in a minute Stefan to get the mic to this woman here on the aisle but they're two of them on the aisle so your response to kind of in this generation in the arts what's inspiring you and what gives a sense of possibility for the future so it's a group of people I can't name one but you know it's people who I sit with them the southeast station acquisition community it's about people who are doing amazing work in Dhaka who are doing work in Sri Lanka well you know it's a building out you know the nation and I think a lot of people inspire me incredible projects happening right now kind of inset in South Asia they need to be more yeah there are some pretty incredible initiative you get the Sam Donnie's in andhaka and kind of the incredible work that that's happening kind of all throughout the region Lucian the last response to this question and then we have a question very short what inspires me or the artist yes generations always the artist yes I don't want to say specific names but I'm also looking for that inspiration all the time yeah thank you okay our first question from the audience we have 13 minutes I'm in fashion and design when people ask me Oh what about Tibet and the crafts there I buy a lot of you know and Commission lots of artisans and as well in my view one of the biggest threat to the Tibetan and this goes for other minorities is the big brands the minute you have Zara sorry if I offend everybody but the minute a brand opens a store the local patrons who buy from artisans for their beautiful clothing will stop they'll go to Zara so my question is loosen how will you how do you see the influence of big brands interacting with artists and in a way using or supporting the artists for brand promotion yeah just kind of in general kind of supporting local kind of initiatives you feel like I think he feels like you can't answer that question because he's not so kind of directly engaged kind of with fashion where is the question and I'll take it from a different perspective I think the realities and one of the reasons I I like the arts and I've learned a lot through art is because I've learned a lot about myself and so the minute you start buying something buying art right you're putting money on the table and every day I live with every single object I own every single thing I have a connection with and it's helping me create my identity and my understanding of myself so we talk about Millennials and I think there are two types of major stereotypical Millennials in the world okay one is Erin and we're gonna change the world we're gonna make a difference we're not gonna use plastic straws and you know we're gonna do all this and the other is the entire group of people who've made kylie jenner a billionaire okay we live in a world with a lot of global forces we also live in a world where there is rising I mean if you read Hans Rosling it is the best of times in many ways and so when you look at emerging economies you see people buying into a certain type of middle class or aspirational dream but at the same time with art and with addition with education you also see an entire other group of people who are trying to question and understand their identity and build it through a different way so again like my every time I see art every time I learn from artists what they're doing it drives the way I create my collections and so I don't think you know you can say there is a right or wrong or good or bad I think there are just a lot of market forces in the world and that hopefully again with enough education with enough outreach we can let people be I'm a bit of a libertarian and the people every single person has to make their own choice also making both they can be both I was one of my most shocking conversations of yeah two years ago I was in Chicago and this lovely young Muslim American girl come to a talk that I did and it was about you know the Arab experience in America and then she was so I mean she was so nice and so interested and then she was like oh I have to go I'm so sorry my friends are waiting in line to go buy a Kylie lip kit and I was like what I don't even know what that meant so you know I guess they're both Sonia yeah we can hear you I want to congratulate the organizers for putting a very a group of patrons who are very radical and that's quite amazing I think you're giving the the artists a bit of a complex here in being radical now the question and it's not at all an interrogative question it's actually bringing something to the table it's to do with how do we navigate the ideological underpinnings if you like of art which is socially inclusive engage etcetera with communities and the ground reality and this popped into my head when I was looking at and you hear that we need talk about that project which happened in the fish-smell in infested area because I'm from Delhi and each time I go to Bombay I do everything to avoid that area because it sets off my asthma I get a reason I'm there and when you were describing the project I was actually thinking hang on every artist will have asthma or to get allergies and every potential visitor who wants to go to the space is excluded from this so not being facetious but this is an example of how perhaps beyond ideology and beyond beyond of course good intention so many other kind of small and big you know considerations also need to be dealt with that's all so it seems like more of a comment any other questions I go to the next one there you know it back in Ohio great the aisles did amazing on the ins in the middle you're not good no I just wanted to ask as I noticed that all of you are very concerned about your community which i think is really incredible and it's a personal passion and it's a personal connection that really brought you to in your different ways you don't do what you were doing and I mean I know this is kind of a blanket question but pretty much I just wanted to ask like you know what advice you have for other people looking into their communities what can they do and what are maybe some of the anecdotal like hiccups or you know things that you kind of wish you had known when you had first started the journey in terms of you know any advice that you would give great question let's give you the tyranny first I'm so I actually believe it's a journey and there will be hiccups but the more you engage if you have a group of people that you're working with I actually approached the government to build the toilet I went to them and I said you know I want to do something and they were very responsive I think it's also about stepping up and stop complaining and being the change and talking about it enough that people see you and hear you I mean we really pushed the India agenda for Venice this is the first time the government's actually taken a space at the Venice Biennale and you know we pushed it and it just got finalized like two weeks ago and everyone was like you guys are crazy how you're gonna get a pavilion at Venice to happen and you know we're making it happen so yes we can sit here and complain but I think the more you involve yourself and engage I think the more you create change Ellucian have anything to add to that okay any other panelist okay I think you just actually have to get and walk into that email and that's how things get done you know you're gonna make mistakes right I mean I think we've all made mistakes and still here the one thing I'll say is that it's you should acknowledge when you've made the mistake so I think that's for me one of the most important things that you know I'm I can say sorry and I'm good at saying sorry and the most thing that upsets me and other people is when they just can't acknowledge any other before I also have another question for the panelists before we get to that I think we have five minutes and I want to use all of the time I wanted to ask each of you like what's next what the next generation there's about the word next well I mean I literally one week ago had my PhD defense and successfully you know passed at Soha speech in politics yay so actually next step is celebration then sleep but after that I'm teaching at Brown in the fall and I did not pay for that position fYI I mean you're not unlike the lacrosse team and of course continuing my work with Art Basel it's an organization I feel very very proud to be professionally associated with and the Milken Institute's I'm now advisor for arts and culture so everyone please look it up it's also an idea of impacting change through the you know the like let's say the harder metrics of the way in which I think the rest of the world perceives power you know it's an economic think tank and now is really understanding more and more how arts and culture plays a role in the grand economic ecosystem likeyeah dee what's next at work I've three main tasks one I've taken on sustainable product and trying to create it and that's been really exciting we're I'm not gonna tell you all about it because I have like three exist starts to exist I don't know you know I have two brands with pie really trying to understand what modern Chinese identity is about you know what does it mean east meets west and not just putting mandarin callers everywhere and dragons everywhere I've also started a brand called determinants it's online in China and believe it or not it's a minimalist brand because I think you know we talk about sustainable development goals whatever and the best answer is buy less where your things more often and so we started a brand with like one product and now we will have three products but it's it's really it's about that in the arts I just hope to continue learning and I think it's a really exciting time for Hong Kong as well because again Hong Kong was a trading hub for a long time we were a colony understanding how the education system worked here and how that's changed over the years how there's already been such a big push around science and technology and now to have this push around art and around the celebration of people right that's gonna make us a really special place and so I'm very excited about that thank you d tyranny I'm we're building a residency which were very excited about that's how we're supporting the odds of we're really excited about Venice we're also at work we're also looking at sustainability in a big way how to make our building sustainable you know like the toilet I forgot to mention but it's solar paneled and it's off-grid were using 1/10 the water so we're trying to do a lot of sustainability is well alas Luke Skywalker okay I wanna do I want planning to do performance art benefit oxygen for the museum I don't think explain how does anyone has ever done it before no okay you were people was talking about you know performance are not as an asset so you probably don't see any performance in the fair right now beings being traded we've had amazing performance our pieces in you know historically in terms of Chinese contemporary and none of this we don't see them anymore because performance their artist does it once and people forget about it yeah there's archive but the archives I mean it's very difficult to see and they're not trade it and they're not collected so I want to force the artist to think about how does a how can a performance or going to the market or being collected it's gonna be very cheap I'm I'm negotiating with other artists some of them are historical pieces it's gonna be very cheap and it will it will not be a sit-down dinner there will be an online version so some young artists are gonna be performing at the compound of cellphones so they're these are new new new performances so the old performances are video streamed and the new ones are live streamed so basically and the artists will think about how does you know you know how how do they how do their work enter I think it's gonna be mostly museums or institutions who by who by these how do they enter their performance are into a collection and most artists don't think about that now and also I mean it's very difficult for performance artists to make money you know to generally just to survive as a medium right and also you know the museum does benefit auctions all the time and and because artists sometimes it's donating so it's never top great works so actually it doesn't do their art is any any good by having these works in an auction right so I think thank you Lucien I want to thank all of our panelists and thank all of you for coming for the conversation today if you would like to be part of Planned Parenthood contact Aliyah if you'd like to contribute to the women's there women on an archive project support the Asian art archive if you want to like buy some performance art like follow Lucian online you want support a politics of food book let me know have a good afternoon we're starting a consultancy here today thank you have a good afternoon [Applause]

Channel: Art Basel

Views: 5,936

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Keywords: Art Basel

Id: L8IjsDUuRLg

Length: 78min 35sec (4715 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 28 2019