Conversations | The Artist and the Gallerist

good morning everyone my name is cloudy on behalf of Art Basel I'd like to welcome you to this morning's conversation panel it's in a series that we started in Hong Kong entitled the artists and the galleries because we thought it relationship between the artist and the galleries is quite unique and special in the art world so we wanted to have a series with the more conversations between an artist and the galleries and we're super happy to have kind of two living legends here and this morning Musti mommy Nene and them then Graham and I'm also very happy that Mark rappelled kindly agreed to moderate this panel I also quickly want to thank the absolute company for helping us making all the videos of the conversations online this conversation will go for about one hour and after that you'll have to do the opportunity to ask your own questions so and without further ado well please hand over the microphone to mark and thanks for coming thank you um so I think just a brief introduction if there is one necessary to our two speakers today massaman many fans his gallery in 1973 is originally called banker and focused early on and conceptual a minimum a tonality Provera and from there has sort of expanded to cover everyone from yun-fat pretory Spalletti Anisha poor Whittier Catalan and loads and loads of others I guess Dan Graham is an American artist who once ran a gallery in new flew briefly yeah he sold nothing unlike Macedon and is one of the most important I think conceptual artists of our time his work you know covers performance installation video and photography and generally focuses on architecture and its psychological effects on us before we begin I just wanted to read um Massimo he's had his gallery for 40 years has two books I highly recommend I think they're going to be at the front later but here's just a little bit of Massimo and Dan in additional to being a pioneer of American conceptual art he's a good friend all he talks about is architecture the Pope cats and the zodiac so that's the summary of what we're going to be discussing later and here's Dan on Massimo Nessman was once politically a good government communist Matta mez approach to art was similar to mine at the time a mix of the conceptual with humorous discourse so maybe start with you with how the gallery started why did you want to do it why yeah why did a good government communist want to open a commercial gallery at the time we were all communists not not 51% but the Communist Party in Italy was over 30% imagine that the Italian Communist was not is the Russian Communist it was something who made to liberate Italy from the fascism so yeah what we say the las casas de salerno the talia team made possible the article 7 of the Constitution they did they did they built the new Italy and was quite natural for let's say intellectual to be on the left side as as Roger Garber said in the famous song Gabbar was a was a singer we were all communists because the the cinema was on the left side little later was on the left side painters were there and was quite quite normal to be on on this side of the barricade in any case I'm I'm still on the same side we are not anymore communists as we were at that time before not so red bit more pink and I must say that in the in the very recent elections in my city I for the first time in my life I had some I have I will have some official charge for the culture ok so then I'm selling the gallery pretty soon so we have to find another guy in Italy I was do something else but probably bit better for you although you be one thing I want to mention a mesmo was a friend of a polity another words that flash chart and being a flash art you were you were you were writer and I would say intellectual I don't like being called an intellectual but I think we're both intellectuals well he's not not true not not you're not intellectual I imagine I I started low delete class a law in Milano I don't know why but in any case I was very bad in mathematics so I couldn't afford any anything about engineering or sector not not I was afraid of blood so Gina no damn how did it feel to have a gallerist he's not very good at mathematics uh well actually I'm a little different from a contemporary artist I always uh just like a artist as businessmen every all the artists I know know our own interested in business but I have a question a mesmo a design wonderful for me I've become a collector and I always wanted to Luciana fabro I arranged to trade with him he suddenly died and Massimo arranged for me to get a piece so I now have Luciana fabric Wow also I'm a major collector yeah then I is a beautiful collector of small pieces from a vase it too Joubert from Sol LeWitt two-channel Fabri well and I'm someone who I mean I promise invented to make this deal and suddenly unexpectedly which I know died but I didn't dismiss and five years later I succeed to get a piece from Sylvia was here maybe she's there I don't know and so Dan is a happy collector of a piece of Luciano Favreau who belonged to the ideology of lucha Fontana anyway because there is a cutter yes exactly Fontana I think was the greatest artist as a training century and he was basically Argentinian aborning was Italian but I guess Italians on that don't think that and you know he was pure Argentinian also also his biggest influence was Mandara Russell who is Italian yeah a real artist only by the way is not in my collection is he here that Ventura Rosa and I don't know he's not in my collection he's nothing no connection there but I'm happy for anyone I'm here to try it to try to find a pop like you need to put clay then I'm trying to find a small drawing here okay let's do a little deal hmm I can bind an option you give me a pavilion for the Clio half pavilion but I love astrology and all my best dealers or virgos I'm very good by the way oh yeah the reason I let virgos are such good dealers is a they have intellectual interest in art and they can explain it and we go to the end of the problem also there they believe in service in other words they won't serve people their clients and their artists the best hmm I'm asking what what made you want to start working with tan because at that time when I opened the gallery and even now of course Dan was a major artist and I try to my generation I mean done is my generation more or less and I wanted to work with the artists of my generation of course previous artists are more glamorous so we we all dream to have sight wombly or lucha Fontana whatever but at that time they were too expensive impossible to touch already with their own galleries so even even today young galleries the young young dealers they start with their own generation like my daughter or any other one here I will do daughter's name Francesca oh and Alice our universe the words base thank you for the question ok this is Milano Milano vmsu man VT Cinque telephone 0 2 is the Milano more important art art art center than Brescia in fact I told her if you want open the gallery by way to stay in Brescia I made a mistake myself don't stay here go away Milano is the closest city then you know a father or mother make a shadow top of her son or daughter so better they do something completely different the white it is time Russia because I'm lazy it lazy well Mesmer lost but Merkel's love architecture Mesmer lost too fabricate my work as a kind of architect and Bray she apparently has a great great steel industry but it is very very powerful city first it's not a small city I mean it's not that big but anything in the Italian economy base is the third or the fourth city as a power of generating let's say money do you have you have a good football or soccer team a good what a football soccer teams no second second said is how I see the time they go up to the first immediately they go down the next year so hmm no not go nuts and not even big collectors but I mean what they want to say is that even the gallery in Paris doesn't sell to people local people we know that the in Berlin there are some four hundred galleries but there are no collectors they sell to American or Chinese or Japanese Wendy Gramm so I was born in a funny period at the beginning of a big change imagine that when I opened the gallery I had no telephone for one year the first year no telephone nothing so I was there waiting someone entering the gallery and nobody went almost nobody so I had to launch the gallery around in in Italy and in Europe so I took my car and they start making travels and in these travels I went very often in Belgium and Holland the best collectors they say are in Belgium I kind of agree but but but also I think I you would did some work for your father right yes of course the gallery could feed the family a little family after a while not immediately so so I had to study in the university after the university I went back to Brescia to to do something and I had to work with my father or here the work with me better I founded a little company and he joined the company after ye get pension year so after a while I met giancarlo politi by the way as you say in flash art and he said what what what the are you embracing this little city of the world to come to me Lana Whitney so I left my job I went to see him and with my surprise I discovered that we in flash art which is a leading magazine today that time we were two people working shankarpalli today I was the second only my rule was not to write I was not a writer as is probably and today am i right today done why don't I don't understand the time about my takes out in English either oh but I but I love Italian film my favorite filmmaker is Elia Patrick hey Patton victim and also the star of us are with was woman from Switzerland Ursula Andrews from she's from Baron okay but I want to bring up one thing oh I showed with with a very avant-garde gallery of Franco to sully a super hippie and I think Massimo was a friend right yeah in fact I met so let's say being in flash art and I say I was not the writer I was just the organizer my role was the organization selling the magazine making the contact with gallery advertising distribution and but basically final fundraising so I was also selling artwork we will be advertising very often at that time was paid in nature without words so my rule was to sell and there I learned how to how to set up and one day I was so so so intelligent and so speed that I amid I must admit I made some insider trading so imagine I was on the sea I found a nice a nice artwork I bought for I booked the artwork for me in the few days later I saw the the Apple for me and was not very Italian very yeah also usually Italians I showed with many Italian galleries in this in 70s a almost all the these galleries I didn't tell anything and they kind of stole my work whereas Massimo was totally honest not only now he gives me money even before I make a sale that's her that's his character yeah amazing character but you but now you're we're selling right this is why this is why one day that question mm-hmm sorry now you know you're selling my work it's working out finally what they do we do work you can know that my work is finally selling you're making sales I make the sale yeah I mean these it makes a yeah I give you your 50% they take mine anyways like I can't pay all these all these parties but we've lost we've lost a lot of sales and very very funny ways for example example the the major the major sale in boss honor they no no no it's not true because I sold the piece to someone who sold it to someone else who I'm talking about the origin of this no I'm no we made some sales but I'm talking about the big pavilion the big pavilion for the new house yeah but I love the set because you sold directly the story was the collector of the collector of was building a beautiful beautiful house it was a very great architect also a Virgo yeah uh and and he was a uh he was buying some very good stuff and bad stuff the project was great and then suddenly his what his wife a very beautiful woman who was very attracted to to me and other people she left him and everything fell through yeah but this is the story of selling in Italy right these mixed up because in fact we we didn't make a sell we did three pavilions in in volts on no but the cell this is my best piece the one in the big house at the terrace no no this is being done I mean they say the Salus was done but I got no money yet no I know you get the money after received I said I pay you from retail and a time where the country communists had the account of insulin not anymore today by the way I was also never communist I'm a European European socialist very much involved with with Jacques Lange in Matera at that period I'm a European socialist so so you were a communist but I was I'm I said I'm a kind of socialist other French variety I see if Romeo t-shirt but I want to bring up something else whether they come and stop by the way come and stop what to be that's he a C but not so good I want to mention saying it's very personal it's very important in the in the art field first of all the the greatest American dealer who is actually originally Italian with Virgo Leo Castelli yoga standing from tree esta but what I wanted to bring up was I know maybe two years ago I think a Paula Cooper was honored at the Basler fair is a grace dealer he's full of ego no she's a very beautiful Pisces most one of the most beautiful women uh-uh ever and I've heard from from from women women in the art world that Massimo is most handsome who say that oh oh well Michelin Schweitzer many many women dealers he can give you the names and addresses laughter okay give me the phone number but but Wendy Shang has a Qiang hasn't mentioned Wendy Levitt Wendy no but she hasn't mentioned your name in a long time yeah but he's written Maxwell is very liked is not as handsome he's leaving too far away she's in Vancouver mm-hm I was gonna ask them I mean from your books and everything friendships are very important parts of the relationship between an artist and I'm generous could you imagine working with someone you weren't friends with but his work maybe you admired or his friendship a Keith or done you mean never anyone a new frontier of course a good relation or a friendship is very important for relation with your artist working with an artist who is also a friend is much easier and more important interesting than just working and selling and buying and goodbye so finally also in my book you will see you have seen they will see if you want if you want some books here after the speech the book is not in alphabetical order is not in chronological order in fact the book is in or as I say but as alligator boy T said the disorder found a new order so I decided to put together artist alone or in groups according my my my I don't know what I wish I can say accordingly the taste of the day I made this I made his book in a hospital it took me four months made I was in hospital one week in fact over the nuns not good because you could not have a baby those those from the hospital's nuns so in the hospital made my room with all the papers they were beasts astonished I was writing day night I wrote the text in Italian we said unit run T so I I wrote all the text for all the artists to tell let's say to tell the story and and I decide who stay with with whom and then I set down together with a with an Italian photographer Paolo Jolie which is very very important photographer Pauline is alone Sol LeWitt and Spalletti together some figurative painters together like on tiny salvo Vanessa Doku pill and poor P so i i i play with with material and of course some some some of them has a better story and about done I've many things to say because we we spent quite quite a lot of time as I say in the little boo you can probably you control the boat traveling own cars by car at that time you never get my good driver what the main thing is you're on the phone all the time also you know you can they say now you can't text and drive but you're able to do phone drive every text the problem problem is a Massimo doesn't really stop for great food sometimes he's we stopped in the motorway once auto auto pearl water girl now we went outside in the Barbarino damu JLo the number Auto girl you like the Auto girl yeah McDonagh you're not living up to the Italian stereotype sir surely you're not living up to the end oh but Brescia has the best gelato anywhere in Italy it's true boss may we show the picture mhm at the end of the book there's some picture I took to my artist and the first and the first is done eating an ice cream inspiration and he said that the best ice cream in the world is in Brescia now you said that no you said diagram please heavenly Magellan mundo de bazan you say I remember it's written down he written down and so on so so about again about this book is a book of it's not really a book of memories is not a book about only the past but his book about the present and maybe the future and it's a future burst connieyc on its back again a 40 are you sorry fact i think it is busy dynamic level do with mass no I think the the best present present for Italy is a return of Ciolino Catalina and then Jeff Koons could be fish loris and how important is it from the different artists within the galleries to be friendly with each other we necessary question for don t uh with me it's all about friendship I'd like dealers where I can in intellectual rapport also Massimo has great sense of humor as you probably noticed I like galleries who have humor dealers were humor but I had another question I know you showed some great artists but you told me one artist was difficult I believe that was Fabra but other difficult artists but so great many ways I was difficult right but many were difficult Fabri was a very very I'd say very serious very important artist for us we made two shows so I approached Fabro much later than then and Paolini and toro need rain and slow so they they were the first row in the mid-70s Fabro landed in the gallery the ad - something like that 82 83 fabric was a monument nice nice friend but no no difficult to to touch I believe you a Scorpio I don't know do I know this I don't know it but he's he had his own agenda he started a very good school with James Coleman we won - yeah uh he was very good teacher good writer but but intense uh and I wouldn't say was a diva but but I think he out challenged Authority may be worth our tea well in any case I may I approach a new fabric since ever and one day I found the courage to say look why don't we do something together I say let me see let me see let me see maybe one day and he did say dick take me some very precise rules what how to do what to do and so and so and so so finally we had this show and the Fabri rive the lorry arrived go be the lorry this one work I was looking at so the lorry was almost empty and Fabri realized that I was a bit upset because of only one work and he said me t better one good word and the ten bad works so in fact the word was beautiful was in Italy which is the logo of the work of Fabri a kind of homage to bridge because the Italy was completely in iron and aluminium and copper and a beautiful color this work went to two famous German collection the fair collection mr. ranch flare and so we had there is also the picture in the book fabro and the Sylvia and me and a few people that time the gallery was serious and poor so I did the opening we had only a few people yeah today we have thousand people but the girl is not not any more serious and not another any more poor and so the world was beautiful in the center of the gallery the rule where to add to by the work I'm sorry to say and also to pay the world before the opening it was one of the rule of channel and in fact I paid the word the day after and it was not so happy and then we did a second we did a second show two years later with in with another Italy at that time I paid the world the day before and he was very happy then as you know Fabri was a famous teacher in the academy Milano like today's alberto karate another famous italian artist and a very important professore a academia Barilla and he had a little school around him some pupils and for the third show he wanted me to show the pupils and I say I prefer the master and so we in a way we lost the contact he was a bit upset me not to afford the work of his school so we kept a very good relation we spent holidays together many things but not not anymore not anymore not another show so I had only to show with father and one day he died suddenly hurt attack one a lot but when I found some works in the in the auction I bought two little drawings of him in an auction recently I can trade with you know I only have a one example of every artist I collect one each manage and except for monk mangled a mangled I have three and also an Ava I say you have to know just one drawing but but I was the most interesting I have a story to tell I won one of my shows in in in mass was gallery he invited for the dinner a moocher pata and her husband she was very beautiful with your product no never oh no she has great love for me she always chased me she said she won the meditation pavilion uh but don't say they know no private place where she can meditate I guess women getting into meditation and yoga then and her husband who's like me uh in Aries oh you see they used to have violent fights in public but he actually made the business uh he was very dynamic the meditation pill even it didn't happen because I think that the broader foundation decided that they prefer Angela they preferred it they preferred Anish Kapoor I have nothing bad to say about an issue because because I've sold almost no works and it was less than gallery only one piece was sold and it was and it was actually two Danish Pope work so he's supportive in his own way he's become a collector a collector of my work so I'm very happy and he's was here yesterday mm-hmm did I hold that one now now he's divorced and uh and and Alex logzilla's listen gallery thinks he made his wife has my piece that he might maybe in he may after the divorce is finished he made by another piece for his new house right from eating it next piece so nice what's it like when Dan's working with other galleries do you get jealous or is it upsetting at all you mean with other guys in in the world in the wild here no you know there are times we were used to share artists with many galleries that's what dealers are about images well regards not only worldwide that even maybe sane Italy had many many dealers yes for sure they were all kind of on some of them were intellectuals like you are the problem is they stole her this is your problem but well no it's a problem Italy's are Italians a dealers are Benji just well you had shows with look not that shows with Mario peony which is not a Bandito yet so we chose a knee Lou told you no no you know man but not the good the good cars whir whir whir bonamo she's good I see a banana oh no mo I'm not um she was a good person uh Lucci amelia was a brilliant Vercoe Vercoe person uh a V difficult man well he's nectar you know a curious command can be very difficult I wrote something for lucha media in my little book is the only there only two galleries in my book Amedeo and now I can project this is the second edition of the Puccini and is in alphabetical order so a major is the a the big very beginning and number two to follow your question at that time not only done had many guys in the world he had many galas in Italy but it was quite common imagined that malsky Fano had 20 galleries in Italy Madame s had ten Paolini nine planets a seven or eight this was the system at the time the system was with Gauri shared information with each other as far as friends kind of net you know and who knows it was called friendship rather than competition yeah that's that's that's he thought I belonged today but today the big big galleries I won't mention one of my galleries they don't they believe artists are not friends by competitors in fact the reason I show sometimes with galleries is because I love the artists in the gallery and it's all about sharing friendship yeah but maybe I'm very different from the modern artists here classic art is not modern no I'm basically a populist not an intellectual I've done a great popular popular pieces of Xia foundation the other roof no the great the weather the sunset the Hayward Gallery which is being taken down but some basically I'm a populist who people say is intellectual basically also writer when I came into art all the artists were writers so I'd be Kyle myself as an artist writer in terms of books I want to promote my book rock writings it's available everywhere how many addition to your head oh no rock writings psyche the second dition didn't come out and probably won't by the way Nicolas log sale is coming hi mmm dealer of Dan Morrison and she went until five minutes ago thank you a lot of people your eyesight is better than mine I have trifocals I can barely see I'm much younger than you so how much younger at least two years and makes it makes a big difference so let's ask he's the Buffs in this relationship between who is the border stand artist yeah who is the boss yeah there's a rule who the rules are dictated by by the part who is more powerful so imagine make an example Alberto buddy at the end of his career he was giving the the works only to few people I should not say with only 20% discount if you want if they wanted this was the condition otherwise forget so let's say between a dealer and then artist if you are very famous artist you say I want these and these and disagrees if you're a young artist the dealer say I give you these in these Lisa T's so there's not one one one well also as a dealer situation I have one big dealer uh and she's out there many of your dealer oh no no this one dealer uh uh who uh sing she she sets a price so it's very hard for if I have a very good collector with the gallery I'd like a that gallery will if is a good collector the gallery wants to drop the price a little bit this dealer who really doesn't has never sold work of mine calls up and insists on a high price for a low price that's that's that's that's the system now you know all the galleries are big big galleries now so the small gallery but but the way it works for Massimo uh is he travels we do site-specific work because when we work in site-specific uh and and he doesn't show in Italy sell in Italy but actually I think people respect him even if he's in their territory because people love in a mire Massimo uh almost universally but he's never been to Japan although my best dealer in Japan was a Virgo Keiko Shah Mardan capo yes you retired but you're not retiring are you no I'm selling the gallery guy is now 40 years old if someone want to buy per se does it come with dan dan is part of the deal one night with Dan Graham and you got it okay giggity um accordant attends whether I like the owner you like doing it if I like the owner I I can approve the deal okay does your honor and how does it work with them with collectors when the works being sold dan do you have a lot of input into people you particularly want to sell what to or don't want to sell what - I'd never control anything see I've become more like an architect I began this horrible disease are artists wanting to be architects and architects wanted to be ours wanting to be architects it's a terrible disease I may have started but I'm a little I can architect whatever client the client whatever client comes in what they want I adapt what I'm doing and try to subvert their original ideas and saying interesting so with Massimo there's been some difficult difficult clients but on the other hand they're all very interesting and on a human level I've met some very interesting people collectors are not are not as they say assholes' in fact in fact mr. Fleck by the way I they say he's a Nazi but in fact he's quite brilliant he buys impulsively a a bit collectors are not actually they're passionate they just have to buy everything they get they get very excited and just want to buy so when Massimo Massimo does is is he finesse is a relationship because most collectors think I'm crazy there's a rumor that I'm crazy so if I deal with if I deal with the dealer the dealer reassures them that I'm going to come through this why I'm I'm buying is then say before I say because also I'm bit crazy I'm a collector basically so I like to to have the GAT work at two years ago I bought from you five pavilions then I sold three so I still have two if someone wants to have one laughter after the speech we can discuss but then the nice part of the work everywhere of my work is not selling an artwork to someone but it's buying much better buy than sell then of course we are obliged to sell something to pay the bills pay the fare unless you gather the you succeed to get me a discount full of the next fair I think you probably ask someone in the art okay do they expensive but also I'm a collector also do you like young suckers young young collectors I also have to say something my collectors on the whole of 40% of my collectors or doctors they buy for they do research often they go to Lake consortium and lots are in space they do research like the Jen's lens and then they buy it's very rare that I have somebody who's not intellectual but Massimo is very good for me because incense mass was intellectual well but nobody likes intellectuals anymore no out of fashion there at a fashion he has plugged it hmm Batista I mean how do you think the kind of art world has changed since he first started what are the big differences I was completely different is completely something else I mean the world the world changed since then after Ryan Edward gold is different after Ryanair and Google I told you I opened the gallery without telephone yeah I met my I made one of my first sale like this so I had the gallery in via Catania imagine and one day the man of a bar near near my gallery went running and he say I did someone on the telephone for you was a collector from Genova and he bought the piece of an artist from my gallery on the phone calling me so he found me so he went through the Yellow Page hit my address via Catania he look in the yellow pages and x-bar via Catania phone to the bar he asked the man to call to come to my gallery and on the phone we made a deal so imagine today is completely different world at that time when I had the fight when I finally had the telephone to make international call you had to deal dial-in number was number 15 let's say and you dialed this number for half an hour occupied occupied occupied occupied finally someone else where you say what you want I want to call this number in Paris okay wait they had to wait three hours maybe today the digital telephony okay I want to bring up something else of the importance of art fairs massimo sell a lot of clients come to see a model or something then you convince them to do a site-specific work and the Art Fair is a pre important even for me as a kind of collector I go to art fairs see things I want and then I contact eye contact the artist myself and we make a trade I'd love art fairs for that reason also the last time I was in Basel eight years ago made ones but did you succeed with the men in well okay tell you well pet I always see Pat Boone and now now I'm going to trade ya a Raymond Pettibon we were but but you loves baseball so I think we're going to go to a baseball game I come back to New York okay oh but but but but totally my first my first most important dealer in Italy before Massimo he was a world-class football football player right the thing you know pavilion Yayoi was defending those no but Franco's a better athlete than you right yeah absolutely I like Franco mmm-hmm he made many disasters but I like him well it was very avant-garde but his advisor I was at was actually power up Apollo belly of a team she was associate with him who she also had money probably yes their family had money yes associate though she was actually she lost all the money with Kigali no but she was an intellectual advisor I once asked her who is the most important art artist in Italy she said Fabro and impelling oh you went to Italy the first time at the beginning uh we was actually Lawrence Weiner recommended me to Franco to Sally as a de facto and I never I never went to actually a most I never went to our school so I didn't visit to see the masters in fact I'm getting educated I was in Rome and my wife who's in the audience and she has beautiful t-shirts nakameguro uh is trying to trying to convince me about Michelangelo she loves Caravaggio we have a big argument she likes Michelangelo and I like Leonardo da Vinci and we do prepare a debt from that time Oh at that time I don't but Leonardo was like me was an Aries she loved cats uh he was in use he did so many different things uh but um I've been I'm trying to educate myself about art now I go to museums it's pretty amazing you can go to a museum and see great art and you you you like as she take - who is your favorite Italian - she takes at the moment well from the past my favorite architect I was Luigi nervy hey you told me tehrany once was there is no water it well that's too runny was absolutely here ten years ago actually Milano has a great Taurani a castle Rustica yeah but but at the moment is that a Bow Wow from from Japan I think has some of the greatest architects uh but but that's my hobby architecture tourism it's fun also I I introduced actually Maximus has been very good to me he showed me other last work the last work of what's his name uh near the cemetery Scarpa kadis-kot and also I saw a house that's carpeted we couldn't heal we couldn't go inside in bolzano yeah it couldn't go inside and that's not you ever happen did I never come to you of the work that you're maybe not sure of and do you come back to him and tell him this how does that work we're sure of every single work he makes with with very few shows in fact we have many we made we made that show in the 76 then we had a long break we we lost the contact anyway I must admit that his work was not sellable at that time so we were looking for more interesting from market point of view and then I read your gallery is actually marginal you don't make so much money at the moment are you making more and more money bid more than more now than first of all what it wasnt it's a let's say an intellectual gallery or as you say so then we rediscover the contact in the late 1990s a maximum a to contact himself by the way with whom with me yeah you you you you you remember the old days I told you I told them why don't we do something together again and since the second contact we became close friends oh I always say I don't want to do a gallery show because my work doesn't work very well in galleries I only say I am and I don't know what to do I have no women why my god my work doesn't really work in a gallery context this is why I love the work of self lawyer because her work really worked with the architecture my work is site-specific so we've been concentrating on site-specific work also of in the 80s I did a lot of things in gardens with the French Socialist government all the museums were working cutting garden situations so Massimo has gotten very involved with my interest in garden gardens hedges it had just things like that and he's been trying to promote that kind of work actually made some good sales right yeah yeah but once you say I try to to have an intervention in the work and once then say me you're not an artist because I try to modify the pavilions you know it is we do this well the fact the fact the fact is I'm sure we have back-and-forth and small disagreements about things but they're not serious arguments I do have some serious arguments with it with galleries that don't want to have dialogue with me that happens like just occasionally almost never the big galleries I don't really want to understand my work you mean this mole galleries like minded they understand better well nobody's because we spend a lot of time together traveling and unfortunately I don't speak Italian as I said I was driving the u.s. leaping well mm-hmm yes oh he's yes he's a good driver I'd like is that the secret to being a gallerist mm well good drive make sure art is happy and safe also I'll give it I'll give you a little bit of art history my first dealer in New York was John Gibson uh he he had some great artists like Richard long matta-clark Dennis Oppenheim and he used the American military so he spoke in Germany so he spoke German and what he did was he took a car station wagon and he had these graphics and he went to all the Belgium collectors and sold to the Belgian collector so Massimo has the same idea you were traveling in Belgium and you met you made sales that way right exactly not with the staff but with some photographs but well John Gibbs also I want to bring up saying very important my last show I did with Massimo was a brilliant brilliant show it's a little nostalgic uh from it was a it was a double show with with with uh Gabrielle Gabrielle Basilica we have a very very famous art architecture photographer and me and it's about brace yourself I invited then them both to to portray my CD algorithms down to there they went they went together they discussed the project then they went separately to take picture imagine Gabriella was it was because he died suddenly but also his workers Marcelo at nine he the souls you saw that to show on this right sorry you almost sold that to show my photographs don't saw him where I couldn't believe it I just didn't want to shoot and Massimo actually took me out to places I think he knew he knew from high school and the the edge of the city yeah but they came to Beijing with a different attitude so Gabriela Basilica with the big structure behind him he went to see the city then he went later with the camera and all the equipment and then arrived a couple of times like I drew him by car and he took some snaps when shoot very fast I think I took me about two hours you know everything I do things I don't know my photographs or hobbies so I had a hobby like every share was a hobby attitude but the fact is the show the the publication was old I think it was actually it was designed in Switzerland and specific by reading a beautiful book slow down big success also by local bookshop a it's constantly selling a selling the book it is an a beautiful book in the corner we could tell something about coma adventure he want at that time he was very addicted tehrani as I stayed and he wanted to make an homage to tear initially oh no I don't think I want to make an homage what happened was was to Ronnies hundreds birthday uh so so I think I contacted you whoever was out to do a piece and the Matt go to do it to do it for me to do a piece uh right next to his casa Fazio so we did a very fast actually there was one proposal as it was turned down for somewhere else it was done very fast and it's a money to produce the most beautiful books I've done by charter and we had an unfortunate situation the piece was blown away by wind otherwise Massimo could have resold it so I've had many bad accidents but that was the worst because it was a great piece yeah I have to say was a great meat and it was absolutely great piece not only that it was fun we did it fast and the public public response in Como in other words I didn't want to buy I try now to propose but currently the government is Israel's conservative right I don't know but they facility or not they don't want to pay yeah they asked me recently again why don't we rebuild the pavilion say ok how much do we want to pay nothing Facebook it so if a piece doesn't sell let's say his fault is that is at the artists spots or the camera stuff was no fault where is the collector fault so bye bye bye bye bye but we've done pieces with a great group so a great collector uh were you didn't want to pay anything but we did it anyway my first our first pavilion we did with maybe say vintage idiom as owner yes yes he's a great collector he didn't buy anything but but in fact I didn't mash my did it because we just wanted to do it decide my attitude is very different from our other artists mine doesn't matter if it's a good situation but some money was some money but I did what I did actually the great rock and roll puppet show done from Sandburg 30 I lost $40,000 on it but if it's a passionate thing I'll do it and put my own money into it it was our first pavilion so we made all the experiments well no it was basically you drop the price well negotiate debris use a difficult negotiate can say look he had money the collectors who have money often are more difficult right yeah the pool collectors are more generous yeah I think with that maybe that's a good moment invite anyone with questions maybe some of the rich collectors or the poor alexis is already bravado discount it's always difficult moment the questions there yeah the question there is a kind of gap between conversation the questions well at the microphones for people yeah that's a nightmare I never that mm-hmm them many possible power you are you people shy you're hiding behind cameras right coming from from the darkness to the under the light is always before you say a word like for the audience impossible turn the leg to the audience well I've got one other question then um-hmm do your office ever get competitive with each other about who's having sales and who isn't is that a problem competition between artists yeah within the gallery yeah a lot quite a lot and how do you manage that I try not to understand and maybe say something then who is your well governor but the circle I became good friends but I think he but in impotence in some ways oh he's more professional than I am he's good cameras hooah governor Gabriela about Basilica we became good friends uh but he has more professional cameras so you know in a way I prefer people like Wolfgang Tolman's who have a very small cameras and I never traded with Gabriela but I traded with Wolfgang Tillman's in fact I have some too beautiful photographs now well I actually don't know the artists in the gallery that well because I'm not from Italy yeah by the way and um I'd like to tell you Italia I'm from New Jersey and I love italian-american women in fact when these women has a very good galleries you are no easy no no Laura Laura was after me but I never really liked her that much she had an affair with with Leo Castelli I'm speaking about a with them Michele McCarron a New Jersey girl has a gallery but but um terms of Italy um I I love the films of Italy I love Bruce Lee loosely the films he made for French TV that Godard like uh but about Italy so loved it it was the first person I showed when I had my gallery uh we sold nothing uh but um he said his work comes out of the carico and he told me the reason he said to Kirikou depicted the city plan of Torino so I was happy to actually go to Torino but actually I don't spend I know most artists like to spend a lot of time in Italy hey you but I like I'm in July you need to leave but why Oh yet two days today okay it's a view around didn't know it's a business deal right also the work is sold already right yeah oh great that's I um does anyone have any more questions otherwise I think we can start said hmm first one I think you we can start drinking drinking heavily thank you yeah hello my name is Robbie I'm independent artists so just a quick question how do you feel about your art being resold to a second or third for the collector overtime thank you I'm not aware of these things what happens is most of my work now I don't sell you my photograph so there's actually no interest but what happens is I give them most of my photographs for benefits and then the result then they're resold in auctions I never see any money from them also most of these early photographs of people want I traded out to other artists and my work is pretty unsalable anyway at the moment even more so than ever but but I don't really mind it the resale is I mean we had many many cases in with the photo but not with pavilion pavilion normally usually we Pavini today is the main work of Dan yeah located in site-specific so usually is made for that place for that collection and remains there that is though I had no cases of resale of this but the photo in the frame is okay you can no I since my work doesn't sell I'll use I used to put a lot of photographs and shows thinking that that could help the dealer out but all the shows I've done with my new photographs was you're actually four of them in Jersey New Jersey okay and by the way my book dan gray a new jersey is available but what's happened is there's been no sales at all but it's a lovely book but I'm actually Massimo private dealer the site-specific things are very important but for me the best work I've done has actually been a work that's halfway between architecture and people come to write it contact me directly a dealers don't make any money on these sales in fact but the Como project which we didn't sell was something like that and it was a masterpiece so I'm very happy about also the book is great so I'm very happy about the results in terms of sales of dealers actually like Massimo I have a really have a difficult time existing paying read you saw the work but you saw the como work to me it's such a delight I don't know I have a certificate in your letter stating my Shalini is so another words I it could be sold again a different location I tried to sell to someone okay yes I want to make an example I the photo Dan say my work doesn't said I my photo Dennis head at the mama Dee I think this is a good reason to buy because they are very low price I made the same thing with wiggity recently I I presented his work in in Basel 10 years ago he was completely unknown today's a little star in the ad work and so I mean yes 40 this question is for both of you for young artists and dealers do you have any advice about how to have such a great relationship like you guys have what's your advice to young artists and dealers gallerists um uh one of my former assistants of khattala uh basically basically Eldin deals with people who who is who have great friend he has great friendship personally before uh also lost a young Mars yeah my advice uh I never recommend artists until they're 40 so I don't really know young artists in other words they're becoming a middle-aged the those artists uh I would say uh um most of the great artists organize group shows with for these galleries with their friends I tried that often I organized group shows with artists I believe in and I think ours should continue doing that and that way you have a network of people who support each other and often one thing about dealers almost all the bet and great dealers were actually artists in like Mikko log cell they began as artists also Konrad Fischer so I say show with your friends and if they're artists first if they begin as ours that's even better for understanding mesmo is basically a writer are you ready occasionally right I'm not anymore a dealer I'm a write exactly what do you have any advice what's the price young camera not really I can I can ask her the other way around now my girl is 40 years old so I'm not anymore a young dealer and we are generation we have the problem to remain young in a way so usually we try to find to discover new artists or take artists new young artists to add to our program so today quite the schizophrenic situation so I have some old masters let's say classic and then some young to cover the need the new possibilities but very often we forget the old to jump on top of the new artist so when we leave an artist old and famous and classic I see that new galleries they try to get it I saw many many young girls who want to make a show of diagram of Sol LeWitt of Louis Venus so I say why why should we remain up-to-date showing new artists when when the new galleries they want to show my old stuff so this is quite a good question then we have another question I think at the back and hi i'm christina a student or teacher and it's a question more about i'm removed - mr. graha and do you mention before just and your problems would say with the work of anushka warren another problem and she bought a piece of money so I'm very happy about that he admires my work even says that which most artists who love the influence by me by me never mention it he's kind of a good guy I don't like his later work the big monuments but a very promising uh when he was a younger artist I consider my question was more directly your in the influence that you are mentioned and because I've just used it words of both and I just I feel that you're working with Maura and a human scale rather than working as a big scale as an issue couple is interesting and maybe he's working with other materials so maybe the similarity is just the course so how can you explain your your similarity that you are being seen working well I don't do a monumental work in other words this is very Italian it's called human scale and they used to say human humanists but that was a Renaissance period maybe I'm not really that much of a humanist but my work is very is beloved by children so when I want to make a sale I always say my work my work uh is what is great for children and also a good photo opportunities for parents but what's so important for me is many architects admire my work a a worldwide but that's why the book sell it sell out um so so I'm collecting now our work by architects okay mm-hmm but I think everybody's doing this there was two dealers that did the your gunner began that way uh and also another Virgo a guy who's retired Mac Mac's Pradesh now he's retired now unit a also a Virgo no he's retired son dude was available oh you proud of that Germano is available are you proud I'm very happy mm-hmm are there any more questions one there I have a question for Dan and you seem to be mentioning and star signs a lot as a tech science in particular Virgo are there any particular ad sites you wouldn't work with but Source engine what can work with I think I'll just say any star science you can't work with any star signs that you can't work with I don't trust in this story I mean I only only discuss with done because I trust them but I don't really trust the the zodiac no but I I know that I know that even people you couldn't work with look like fabric you liked as a friend as an artist so well so you could work with people you be friends on different levels right I believe also you're very tolerant I think I'm very tolerant tolerant the organ artists art are critique the artists artists can be narcissistic a a dictatorial I I learn something with doing the gallery is that the gallery is a wide wide space there was a gallery right it was the name of a famous gallery in Antwerp this gallery space must be mentally able to host different things is a kind of as I said before it's schizophrenic situation you receive an artist and you say okay this is our next artist say oh this is our disease and very often the artists are not very often but sometimes our one against the other I remember big fight between Daniel Bryan and kediri between Daniel Bryan and Taurani between Daniel grain and Angra recently so anyway the the pole position is that the net baron who determinates who is good at it or not but you don't have to try you shouldn't trust artists opinions by the way they're self-serving sometimes but but the cadre the cadre Buuren thing is very interesting the best gallery ever showed was was MTL gallery in Brussels the this is their support they sold and supported my saw brought house and Faris velakis brought in CAD array because he showed Buuren a in a way because you won a kind of a dialogue and and and and an intellectual argument a cadre was going back to the old old Hughes Romanian I think he was going back to the olden Brancusi hand thing uh and a Burin probably didn't understand uh traditional sculpture from from Eastern Europe it was a wonderful relationship cadre was very jealous swimmy jealous but it was a nice dialogue so if there's dialogue between artists who disagree I think it could be fun I think the oldest funny situation at that time they were very creative because they provoke discussion and fight between artists today at is they don't fact anymore too busy to make money look you're in right there's no physical fight I'm not I'm not very strong not physically and and I don't defend my territory because my territory is everywhere I do so many different things basically uh I don't have I think every all ours now has a trademark art my work is not trademark uh so whew so I don't have to have to fight for my trademark don't have to fight for my trait to defend my trademark yeah you take my defend himself without well no I keep changing what I'm doing so there's no trademark on it on the other hand on the and I think Buren doesn't have that much friendship with other artists and but he has a lovely wife I met her and she was quite sweet sometimes the wife is sweeter other than the artist definitely yes any more question otherwise we go I think that's it's here Massimo in 40 years of your work I think the great resolution was after Lehman Brothers I couldn't hear that I mean now all the investors go to art not stock option no houses and the same CB action for instance are always better but now is very difficult to convince new collectors to come or you have a lot of money or it's difficult to find you collect was new young collectors it is possible to find a way religion italiana gay capisco media party attracting collectors no in other words when he said would be gone cause oh now there is a local - rifle scusa doko de millau - da Pollock reseed alumina - till in Vista Tori's no beautiful art Elmer cutter service ain't a altissimo pero America tour my impossible a turnover Colette Co nice Takeda no grantee possibility' china possibility' yeah very Movil Colette you nice Takeda Galleria persona you tear a ad intra request Oman door Maya mondo solo / super leaky no I think this is why we are always looking for new artists by the way the market is talking about our new artist millionaire multi-millionaire but there are still many many old or classic artists like like done here and I mean I don't see really cost almost nothing look at him look look at what I'm wearing here this is it it is this our money so it's not romantic what you say is the media they repeat they magnify the the the big deal the big top the top prizes and true but of course the top prices are for a few artists and this is also destroying a kind of market because all the attention is focused not on the world but on the on the level of price feet so we discuss about the ten million dollar for that twenty million dollar for the other but still you can you can find very important words in the market for almost for nothing it's according to you I I'm buying now you have to go against against the official not I I bought recently for paintings of Leo Galoob who knows logo probably no column column oh god yeah Leo Gulliver here here fine book he he had what was the husband of an aspirin espero by the way here's a fighting book he died I know he plays a fighting book so he's known three years ago and and you can find works of him in auction for 20 or $30,000 or $40,000 well I would say the drive I bought about a beautiful piece of Joubert recently her but she's very expensive now she's very expensive but I paid very great or reasonable so you can always find the possibilities from the other side you we have there are many new artists coming out so you can focus your attention on new generation so the story that art is only for reach is true but is easy we can do something against these standards art is not only the successful art in auctions artist what you buy in the gallery and maybe not not even in fairs because in fair we increase prices I should say what like like the hotel when you come to Basel to tell coach the Devils what what castle come to the gallery when I came to art fairs I always try to think of ceiling things you actually if they're small you can steal things actually I think maybe security is better there yeah so this is to say that you should stop visiting fairs and come again to the gallery haha because in the fair the collector is coming here is three minutes you say okay I come back I come back you never come back if you come to Brescia or to London or to I don't know where to get you spend two hours in the gallery and you can look clearly what what we have so please come to Brasher come to brazier and buy something but I said absolutely the hotel in Brescia it was awful I paid the hotel but it was a terrible hotel yeah but is a fee of child well I want a mass was a very great dealer but there's some other dealers were quite great in fact I'm here for one we're a buzzy disc is not that good what your Italian body is not that good oh well that's that's what that's because that's because it's hard to get good hotels a near when is not fair and I don't make so many demands but there's a real problem my wife she's Japanese she loves a tub and it was hard to find find that situation but I also mentioned why why I'm here my Copenhagen dealer Nick Nick Koslov alster has done a new pavilion for his booth and this is very important he also mostly paid for the airfare and and other there actually there I always deal with medium small sized galleries uh and I do very well with them but the big galleries are really first of all they don't like my work my work is not saleable all so they have this idea that they can control the artists Massimo never controls me I'm a free person he doesn't try to control me I thank the really nice way to end the conversation like to thank Dan and Massimo thank you for that time thank you for everybody you

Channel: Art Basel

Views: 18,343

Rating: 4.5500002 out of 5

Keywords: Art Basel, Basel, Conversations, Dan Graham, Massimo Minini, Mark Rapport

Id: IVtgsUcSEY8

Length: 77min 15sec (4635 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 16 2013