AXIOS POLITICAL REPORTER HANS NICHOLS AND A CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND FORMER PROSECUTOR. HANS, I WANT TO START BY ASKING ABOUT JOE BIDEN'S DECISION TO TALK OPENLY AND AGGRESSIVELY ABOUT TRUMPS CONVICTION. YOU MENTIONED A DEBATE IN HIS INNER CIRCLE. ANY IDEA WHY HE DECIDED TO GO FOR IT LAST NIGHT? >> HE PROBABLY THINKS THE POLITICS ARE GOOD, RIGHT? THIS WAS HIS SECOND OPPORTUNITY TO COME TO THE CAMERAS. THE FIRST TIME WAS LAST FRIDAY AND IF YOU LISTENED TO WHAT BIDEN SAID AT THE TIME, HE WAS CAREFUL TO FOCUS HIS CRITICISM ON TRUMPS RESPONSE TO THE VERDICT. THAT SEEMED LIKE THAT WAS THE LILY PAD THAT THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD PUT THE PRESIDENT ON, WHICH IS TO SAY THEY WOULD LEAVE IT TO OUTSIDE SURROGATES. THE CAMPAIGN ITSELF MIGHT USE CONVICTED FELON AND IN PRESS RELEASES, WHICH THEY DID FRIDAY EVENING. THE FIRST TIME THE PRESIDENT HAD A PUBLIC OPPORTUNITY, MONDAY NIGHT, NOT ONLY DID HE SAY IT BUT THE WHITE HOUSE OR THE CAMPAIGN SENT OUT A TRANSCRIPT AT OF TIME OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT WAS GOING TO SAY. IT WAS PREMEDITATED, CALCULATED, AND THE ANSWER WAS OBVIOUS IN FRONT OF US. THEY PROBABLY THINK THAT THE POLITICS CUTS IN THEIR FAVOR. >> NO LILY PAD NEEDED THERE. SUSAN, THIS IS BIDEN OPENLY CALLING TRUMP A FELON. DOES THAT CHANGE THE CAMPAIGN? IS IT A NEW PHASE FOR BIDEN IN 2024? >> I MEAN, YES AND NO. TRUMP IS A CONVICTED FELON NOW AND HE WOULD BE WHETHER BIDEN PERSONALLY USED THE WORDS OR NOT. I DO THINK IT IS AN IMPORTANT REMINDER, BECAUSE TRUMP HAD MORE THAN A YEAR TO PREPARE FOR THE MOMENT WHEN THIS MIGHT HAPPEN. YOU SAW THIS PREMEDITATED BARRAGE OF STATEMENTS NOT ONLY IN SUPPORT OF HIM, BUT REALLY RIPPING DOWN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM'S EFFORT TO GOOSE THE FUNDRAISING, WHICH HAS PRODUCED RESULTS FOR TRUMP. DEMOCRATS DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME KIND OF PREPARED PLAN FOR WHAT TO DO IN THE EVENT OF A CONVICTION. AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE. I THINK IT IS INTERESTING THAT WE ARE STILL A NUMBER OF DAYS AFTER THE EVENT, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE EXACT STRATEGY IS. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DEBATE SCHEDULED BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM AND WONDERING WHAT IS THE APPROACH OF THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO SOMEBODY WHO NOT ONLY WANTS TO TAKE BACK THE OFFICE, BUT BIDEN SAID OPENLY IN THE INTERVIEW HE GAVE THAT HE DOES NOT BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP IS FIT FOR OFFICE. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER BIDEN WAS THE CANDIDATE OR NOT. THAT IS A REALLY TOUGH POSITION TO BE IN, TO BE ON THE SAME STAGE WITH THAT PERSON WHO IS A CONVICTED FELON. >> WE HAVE NEVER HAD A FELON RUN FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. DONALD TRUMP IS SET TO BE SENTENCED IN NEW YORK ONE WEEK BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IN MILWAUKEE. HOW DOES THIS WORK TECHNICALLY? >> WHAT HAPPENS IS HE HAS TO MEET WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF PROBATION AND THEY WILL ASK HIM QUESTIONS AND HE HAS TO BE HONEST AND TRUTHFUL. >> WHAT IF HE IS NOT? >> IF HE IS NOT, THE JUDGE WILL TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION. IF YOU ARE CONVICTED AND DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND ATTACK THE JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR -- >> WHICH IS WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO. >> YOU FIND YOURSELF INCARCERATED. THIS IS NOT FOR STEALING $50,000 OR MORE. IF YOU BELIEVE THE THEORY PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, HE DID THIS TO IMPACT THE ELECTION AND IT IS NOT ANYONE BUT HIM. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD AND I THINK THAT WILL BE THE BIG ISSUE. >> REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO SPIN THIS CONVICTION, BUT THE GROUP, REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, HAS JUST LAUNCHED A SIX-FIGURE BILLBOARD CAMPAIGN IN FOUR DIFFERENT SWING STATES WITH FORMER TRUMP VOTERS WHO SPECIFICALLY SAID THEY WILL NOT VOTE FOR HIM BECAUSE HE WAS FOUND GUILTY. WHO IS THIS CAMPAIGN REALLY AIMED AT? >> GOOD QUESTION. DRIVERS. PEOPLE WHO DRIVE AND LOOK AT BILLBOARDS. >> THANK YOU, HANS. >> CAMPAIGNS PROGRESS ON DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES AND SOMETIMES THEY APPEAR TO BE TARGETING ONE GROUP, BUT ARE TRYING TO GET ANOTHER. THIS MAY BE AN ATTEMPT TO GIVE PERMISSION TO INDEPENDENT VOTERS WHO HAVEN'T QUITE MADE UP THEIR MIND ON DONALD TRUMP. IT IS ALWAYS HARD FOR THOSE OF US WHO FOLLOW POLITICS THIS CLOSELY TO THINK PEOPLE DON'T HAVE OPINIONS, BUT APPARENTLY 6% OF AMERICANS ARE OUT THERE IN THE SWING STATES THAT WILL DECIDE THIS ELECTION. I SUSPECT THIS WILL BE ONE OF MANY CAMPAIGNS FOCUSING ON IT. I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE MANY AMERICANS LEFT AT THE END OF THE ELECTION CYCLE WHO DON'T KNOW DONALD TRUMP WAS A CONVICTED FELON. THE QUESTION IS, DO THEY THINK IT WAS FAIR? THAT IS WHY YOU SEE THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN AND ALLIES AND CONGRESSIONAL SURROGATES TRYING TO MUDDY THE WATERS, QUESTIONING THE FAIRNESS OF THE SYSTEM, AND THAT WILL BE PART OF THE CONVERSATION GOING FORWARD AND I THINK WE SHOULD ALL BE BRACING FOR THAT. >> JUST WHEN I THINK I HAVE A CLEVER QUESTION, HANS NICHOLS IT'S ME BETWEEN THE EYES. DRIVERS. GOOD ON YOU FOR THAT. MERRICK GARLAND, RARELY DO WE SEE THIS, BUT HE SEEMED TO REACH A BREAKING POINT TODAY WHEN REPUBLICANS WERE GOING AFTER HIM. WHAT YOU MAKE OF HOW HE HANDLED THE HOUSE GOP? >> LOOK, THAT IS SORT OF CONFLICT THEATER THAT IS ARRANGED BY HOUSE REPUBLICANS, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, JIM JORDAN, THE MASTER OF THIS KIND OF PRO-TRUMP THEATRICS, WHICH IS A LOT OF WHAT THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HAS BECOME SINCE REPUBLICANS WON CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS. IT IS VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE REMEMBER THAT THE REASON REPUBLICANS ARE GOING AFTER GARLAND NOW IS BECAUSE OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE IMPEACHED JOE BIDEN STRATEGY. JIM JORDAN, THEY WERE LEADERS IN THAT EFFORT AND BASICALLY THE KEY WITNESS ENDED UP BEING INDICTED BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. TURNED OUT TO BE PEDDLING A FALSE STORY AND ESSENTIALLY THE EFFORT TO GO AFTER BIDEN HIMSELF FLOPPED. THAT IS WHY YOU ARE SEEING THEM GO AFTER THE ATTORNEY GENERAL RIGHT NOW AND YOU KNOW, GARLAND HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY DEMOCRATS FOR BEING TOO SLOW TO GO AFTER TRUMP. TWO OBSERVANT OF THE OLD PROCESSES IN A NEW POLITICAL MOMENT AND I THOUGHT THIS WAS VERY 2024, IF YOU FINALLY HAVE GOTTEN MERRICK GARLAND TO PUNCH BACK AT YOU. >> SUSAN, I APOLOGIZE, I AM SURE OUR AUDIENCE DOES NOT WANT TO BE SAID ADDICTED TO MORE OF THIS AT THIS LATE HOUR, BUT I WANT TO SHARE, FOR A REASON, EVEN MORE OF HOUSE REPUBLICANS TODAY GOING AFTER ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND, BECAUSE NONE OF WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS TRUE. WATCH THIS. >> FOR THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WE DO HAVE A PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION WORKING TO PUT ITS OPPONENT IN JAIL. THAT IS A FACT. >> YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY ALLOWING THE DEPARTMENT AND THE AGENTS THERE AND TO ENGAGE IN POLITICAL PROSECUTION. >> THE LAWFARE WEAVE SYNDICATES PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO GREAT DAMAGE IN OUR TIME. >> DOES THAT SOUND LIKE WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS THAT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES ARE ABOVE THE LAW, BECAUSE THEIR STATEMENTS. NO RESEMBLANCE TO FACTS? >> ZERO FOUNDATION AND FAX OR LAW AND IT IS REALLY INTERESTING, THIS IS THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WENT AFTER DEMOCRATS FORCING DEFUND THE POLICE, BUT THEY WANT TO TEAR DOWN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND BLAME IT ALL AS A HOAX TO GET THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP. IT IS REALLY DISAPPOINTING. IT IS REALLY UPSETTING BECAUSE OUTSIDE OF THAT COURTROOM EVERY SECOND OF THOSE SPEECHES OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM, IT WAS AN ATTACK ON THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. >> AND OUTSIDE THE BUBBLE OR OUTSIDE PEOPLE WITH EXPERTISE OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW BETTER. PUBLICLY MERRICK GARLAND IS AS UN-POLITICAL AS THEY COME, BUT GIVEN WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE DOING, DOES THAT EVEN MATTER? THEY ARE LITERALLY MAKING THINGS UP TO SATISFY THEIR BASE. >> THE MAIN ISSUE THAT YOU SEE WITH GARLAND, I THINK IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT, I DON'T WANT TO LEAN INTO THIS TOO MUCH, BUT A LITTLE BIT OF DISAPPOINTMENT THAT HE HAS NOT BEEN MORE POLITICAL. THAT HE HAS NOT PUNCHED BACK HARDER AND I THINK TODAY WE SAW THAT. HE WAS GOING TO BE ON THE SUPREME COURT. THEY RAN OUT THE CLOCK AND HE WASN'T ACTUALLY THERE. SOLICITOR GENERAL AND A CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE AND NOW HE IS BACK AS ATTORNEY GENERAL. I THINK THAT IS REALLY THE MAIN SORT OF ISSUE THAT GARLAND IS PUNCHING BAG. THE OTHER ISSUE IS THAT REPUBLICANS DON'T HAVE THE VOTES FOR CONTEMPT. IF THEY DID THAT WOULD CHANGE THE CONVERSATION, BUT THEY DON'T APPEAR TO HAVE THE VOTES. THAT COULD CHANGE, BUT RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT COULD HAPPEN. >> THEY DON'T NEED THE VOTES, THEY'RE JUST LOOKING TO MUDDY THE WATER AND CONFUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. SUSAN, I WANT TO TOUCH ON THE POINT THAT HANS JUST MADE. SOME HAVE BEEN FRUSTRATED THAT MERRICK GARLAND HAS BEEN UNWILLING TO BE MORE POLITICAL AND PUNCH BACK HARDER AND NOW HERE HE IS GETTING PAINTED AS SUPER POLITICAL. HE IS GETTING ALL OF THE DOWNSIDE OF BEING POLITICAL WHEN HE WAS NOT EVEN DOING SO. SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN? LOOK WHERE IT HAS ENDED UP FOR HIM. >> WELL, YOU KNOW THAT IS WASHINGTON FOR YOU ON SOME LEVEL, BUT I THINK WHEN YOU CONSIDER WHERE HE IS GOING TO GO DOWN IN THE RECORD BOOKS AS ATTORNEY GENERAL, IT IS HARD NOT TO REFLECT ON AND SECOND- GUESS, WITHOUT FULL INFORMATION OF COURSE, BUT TO WONDER IF THINGS MIGHT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT THIS YEAR. NOW WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE EITHER ONE OF THE FEDERAL CASES AGAINST DONALD TRUMP THAT WERE BROUGHT BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPECIAL COUNSEL, JACK SMITH. NEITHER ONE OF THEM LOOKS LIKE THEY WILL GO TO TRIAL THIS YEAR. THERE ARE A LOT OF DEMOCRATS AS WELL AS OUTSIDE OBSERVERS WHO THINK THE REASON FOR THAT IS MERRICK GARLAND ESSENTIALLY AND HIS CAUTION ON EMBARKING ON INVESTIGATIONS OF TRUMP AND THOSE SURROUNDING HIM IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF JANUARY 6. WE ARE LOOKING AT FOUR YEARS AFTER THE DRAMATIC EVENTS OF 2020 AND WHAT FOLLOWED THE ELECTION AND YET WE ARE STILL NOT GOING TO HAVE A RESOLUTION ON THE INCREDIBLY SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AGAINST
