Complete testimony of David Pleoger, MPD, retired

but the testimony will be the truth and nothing about the truth i do and before you begin if you could remove your mask that would help us hear better and second if you could give us your full name spelling each of your names david d-a-v-i-d last name plugger p-l-e-o-g-e-r mr pleasure thank you very much good afternoon sir good afternoon uh can you please uh tell the jury where you used to work uh city of minneapolis police department how long were you a minneapolis police department officer approximately 27 years you recently retired i did and when did you begin your career as a minneapolis police officer uh 1993. and where did you start did you did you start your law enforcement career at mpd i know previously i worked at the richmond minnesota police department for approximately six months and after working at richmond you moved to the minneapolis police department is that right correct and did you do your academy training through minneapolis police department i did and you received your post license through minneapolis is that right yes and you're a sworn law enforcement officer yes and what does that mean to be a sworn law enforcement officer i'm licensed to the state of minnesota through the police officer standard and training board and you take a specific oath to be a sworn officer yes and can you tell us a little bit about your career with the minneapolis police department did you start out assuming in patrol yeah yes i started in patrol and how long did you work as a patrol officer until approximately 2001 when i was promoted to sergeant and what shift did you start as a patrol officer dog watch what's dog watch for those who don't know overnights okay starting typically uh approximately nine at night to seven in the morning okay and as a patrol officer with the minneapolis police department what were your typical duties traffic law enforcement uh responding to 9-1-1 calls things of that nature what kind of 911 calls would you typically respond to domestics accidents anything people call this for general law enforcement reactive sometimes is that right correct and proactive being on patrol right after five years on patrol did you take a different assignment uh yes i was on the community response team for a while now what is the community response team it was a more of a proactive team dealing with uh things like narcotics prostitution narcotic search warrants and did that uh did that team i guess uh patrol or have jurisdiction over the entire city or was it within a particular precinct that was in the fifth precinct and you said you were with the crt for a few years what did you do after that that was promoted in 2001 and worked in the forgery and fraud unit for a short time and what rank were you promoted to sergeant and is that the rank that you retired as yes sir approximately what year then were you promoted to sergeant you can remember 2001. and most uh was your most recent assignment as a minneapolis police department sergeant i was a sergeant in the third precinct on uh it's called midwatch what's the mid-watch shift that was uh three o'clock in the afternoon until one in the morning at this time i'd like to offer i'm sorry publish exhibit 268. all right i know how well that can be seen on the screen but exhibit 268 is a precinct map is that correct yes the third precinct of minneapolis and you see that there's some additional numbers as well you could shrink that down a little bit can you describe what you see here on the third pre-saint map you see the number 310 and underneath the 320 right those are some districts within the precinct so the precinct is divided into districts and then from there divided into particular sectors is that right correct and as the midwatch shift sergeant what were your responsibilities uh i supervised that entire precinct to the officers under me on the midwatch shift as a supervisory police officer what are your responsibilities with respect to the other officers in their duties a look at the reports uh keep an eye on their activities make sure they're staying busy things of that nature do you have to assign officers to ride together yes i do do you have to brief officers at the beginning of the shift that's correct i do a roll call briefing every afternoon before they started just please describe for the jury what a roll call briefing is i take any uh things from the department uh new policies procedures uh pass around posters of people who are wanted for crimes uh just let them know what was gonna be going on for the night how long does roll call usually take probably 15 minutes and this is done at the beginning of shift yes approximately how many officers then would attend a roll call typically 10 to 14. and you said that you'd be distributing policies and procedures i'm assuming then you'd have to be familiar with those policies and procedures yourself is that right correct so you're familiar with the minneapolis police department policy and procedure manual yes and as it gets updated you push those updates out to other officers whom you supervise is that right correct uh do you also occasionally review and approve reports of officers you supervise i do and do you also review their conduct as in uh reviewing uses of force yes what do you call it when a sergeant reviews a police officer's use of force force review report could you please describe the the process of a force review uh typically an officer would call me or i'd be notified by radio that uh they'd use force on a suspect or arrested party uh i would head out interview the officer interview the subject that the force was used on take a statement from from both of them and then complete a report on that which would eventually be routed down to the internal affairs unit and are there certain circumstances where an officer uses force which they're required to notify you yes can you tell us just your recollection what those circumstances are certain scenarios force on a handcuff for any type of force on a handcraft prisoner would result in me doing that strikes any injury or claimed injury by a arrested party and so when an officer uses force a patrol officer and you're their supervisor their circumstances that they have to report it to you and their circumstances where they just don't is that right that's correct and there's some circumstances where they have to write a report and and some in which they do not right so uh are you familiar with uh use of force reporting requirements 5-306 that policy generally how you'd have to read the headline of it for me to to get it well i'm going to show you then what's been marked for identification is exhibit 221 5-306 you read the title there use the force reporting and post-instant requirements and you see the uh if i introduce this oh i'm sorry your honor uh at this time the state offers exhibit 221. let's go on sidebar members of the jury uh the parties yesterday when i said they were going to help streamline things it revolves around the minneapolis police policies that were in effect on may 25th 2020. they are going to be received by you as exhibits 206 through 234 with this stipulation means or in other words an agreement between the parties that they do not have to provide witnesses who actually provide the foundation and the proof that these are the exact policies and that they were in effect on may 25th 2020. they're simply saying that you may accept these policies as being the policies in place on may 25th 2020 without any further testimony or evidence and so on that basis the state is offering 206 through 234 is that correct yes 206 through 234 are received pursuant to stipulation and also i'll offer exhibit 268 your enter 268 any objection to 268. all right 268 is received all right then so referring you back to exhibit 221 if you see 5-306 that's the use of forced reporting and post-incident requirements is that right yes you see this term cappers uh no cappers report required what's a cappers report that was our older the name for our report writing system now that's referred to as a pims report yes we just call it a police report sure okay so uh there's certain circumstances where no uh police report is required for a use of force unless an injury or an alleged injury has occurred is that right yes right and then if you could would you clear that your honor please proceed to the next page of 221 and highlight the top portion please and so the different uses of force that do not require a police report could you just read the list there s guard holds joint manipulations nerve pressure points handcuffing and gun drawing or pointing all right now there are also circumstances in which a police report is required but they don't need to notify you as a supervisor is that right yes and what are those circumstances take downs and chemical agent what does it take down like putting somebody on the ground and then if you could move up the page there's certain circumstances in which both a report is required and supervisory notification is required is that right yes and what are those circumstances uh where they sustained an injury or had to render medical aid okay now when you as a supervisor are notified uh by a patrol officer that they've used force because of a an alleged injury what do you do i usually head out to the scene to uh interview both the officers and the parties that the force was used on and you've already explained that but you also have to write a force report does that correct and when is that force report required to be completed before the end of the shift if we could go back to the first page of that exhibit 221 also like to draw your attention to the first paragraph under medical assistance if you could please highlight that portion under medical assistance could you please read the provision that's called out here as soon as reasonably practical determine if anyone was injured in reader medical aid consistent with training and request emf ems if necessary so the requirement under policy is both to call the ambulance and to render emergency aid while you're waiting for the ambulance is that right yes now i'd like to talk to you about another policy and if i could pull up exhibit 225 you familiar with minneapolis police department policy governing the use of the maximal restraint technique or hobble yes this is a very high level can you explain what a hobble is uh basically device used to uh take control of someone's hands and feet at the same time to prevent them from kicking or acting out aggressively is this a situation in which the subject would already be handcuffed yes and so you the hands would be restrained how would the feet be restrained uh they'd be like hooked together with the hobble and then the end of the hub will oftentimes run through the belt or somewhere by the the waist to prevent it from kicking and that was my next question that would be the purpose is to prevent the kicking of a restrained subject is that right yes and the hobble or maximal restraint technique also requires supervisory reporting is that right it does if you would highlight section roman 4 3 and you can see here by policy that a supervisor shall be called to the scene where a subject has been restrained using the mrt or hobble is that right yes and then as a supervisor you would have to go and evaluate whether the hobble was properly and necessarily used is that right yes and then if you could highlight section b on that same page after a hobble is used uh on an individual and typically when a hobble is used it means that the person has been placed in a prone position is that right that's correct at least initially to get the hobble on yes can you explain to the jury what the prone position is basically flat on your stomach on the ground okay once a hobble is used to restrain the hands of the feet and the subject is in the prone position what does the policy require an officer to do put them in the side recovery position what is the side recovery position basically roll them up on their side to ease their breathing rather than leave a laying on their stomach or chest and do you know why that's important uh it's well it helps them breathe better and rather than having all the weight on their chest it gets them up on their side so they can breathe easier are you familiar with the term positional asphyxia yes how are you familiar with that term uh we've had it in training at mpd how long have you personally been aware of positional asphyxia a lot of years 10 15. and based on your experience as a minneapolis police officer is are the dangers of positional asphyxia generally known throughout the department yes i believe so that's something that officers are trained on correct and when you talk about positional asphyxia just as a at a high level could you explain what positional asphyxia is as you've been trained uh if you restrain somebody or leave them on their chest and stomach for too long their breathing can become compromised and so you'd want to get them up out of that position after a while so uh they don't suffer breathing complications and that's why the policy requires in the training is that you roll someone on to the side recovery position yes and are you aware of whether or not people are allowed to be transported in the in the prone position i believe they should be transported the recovery position and when you talk about you know the need to uh roll someone into the recovery position to alleviate breathing you're talking about a situation where the pressure is from the subject's own body weight is that right that could be yes that does not necessarily include additional pressure that might be applied correct so the danger is there without anyone pressing down on them yes you can take that down please were you working as a sergeant a supervisor in the third precinct on may in may of 2020. yes and at that time uh what were your duties as a patrol sergeant as i explained before report approval monitor the shift for the night roll call any use of force reporting and again you were working the mid-watch shift is that right yes and may 25 uh 2020 were you also working as a chef sergeant i was uh i'm gonna ask you if you're familiar with an individual named uh derrick shopping i am showman i apologize how are you familiar with this person uh he was an officer on my shift how long have you known him uh probably since around 2008. so he was already working as an officer when you were hired i don't think he was when i was hired but eventually he was on my shift yes he was on your shift correct and do you recognize uh mr chauvin in the courtroom today i do would you please point to him uh right there may the record reflect that the witness has identified the defendant could you please just describe your relationship with mr sheldon uh he was an officer in the middle watch with me uh i'm going to say approximately 2008 so he'd been there a number of years a lot of supervisor it was strictly a working relationship correct you ever socialized with him outside of a work setting no are you familiar with an individual named tu tau i am how do you know mr tao he was also an officer on my midwife shift approximately how long did you know him um probably approximately five years you have a similar relationship with mr tao as you do the defendant yes and then i need to ask you about thomas lane and alexander king you recognize those names i do they were new officers on my shift were you on duty around 8 30 p.m on may 25 2020 yes what were you doing at that time uh i think i just headed back into the office after doing some patrol in the street now when you do patrol work do you use a a body camera i do and that's something that's required of all officers including supervisors is that right correct you have different means of communicating with the police officers you supervise and dispatch when you're out on patrol yes what do you use radio and cell phone do you recall approximately 8 30 pm receiving a telephone call from a dispatcher i do what was the dispatcher's name i believe was jenna scary can you please describe for the jury uh what ms scurry said to you in this telephone call uh she called to uh say she didn't mean to be a snitch but she'd seen something well viewing a camera that she thought was concerning that was called to let me know about it okay at this time i'm going to ask to publish exhibit 10. i apologize exhibit 12. okay 2020. hey this is jenna with channel one hey what's up hey so um just wanted to let you know about the person with a knife at 2602 bloomington and then i didn't know you can call me a snitch if you want to but we have the cameras up for 320s call oh did they already put him in the they must have only started moving him um and 320 over at cup foods okay um i don't know if they had used force or not they got something out of the back of the squad and all of them sat on this man so i don't know if they needed you or not but they haven't said anything to me yet yeah they don't say anything less than just a takedown which doesn't count but okay i'll find out no problem i we don't get to ever see it so when we see it we're just like well uh well that looks a little different all right thank you 28 31 33 may 25 2013. sir did you recognize your own voice in that telephone call yes that was me you made a reference to um possibly it not counting can you please explain to the jury what that means i thought maybe she was just describing that they'd taken somebody to the ground place them on the ground and that wasn't something that would trigger me to head out for a use of force but said she wasn't sure that i had to make a call to find out so per the policy if it was just a takedown that would not necessarily be reportable to a supervisor exactly correct uh had you ever received a call like this from a dispatcher before not in those exact terms but a few other times dispatchers have called me if they saw something that concerned them okay and so based on that call did you decide to make some further inquiry i did what did you do i called officer chavin on his cell phone at this time it asked to publish exhibit 75. hello 2 30 here yeah i was just uh gonna call you and have you come out to our uh scene here um not really but we just had to have to hold the guy down he was uh was uh going crazy wasn't going uh trying out for the moment wouldn't go in the back of the uh squad all right come on yes you are thank you now sir uh you recognize the voice in that call yes and whose voice was that officer showman that was the conversation or at least his end of the conversation as you recall it on that day that you just described yes he made a reference to shutting off can you explain to the jury what that was in reference to i probably asked him if he had his camera on or off since we're having a private conversation and that would be within policy within the body-worn camera policy for him to shut off during the during that conversation is that right yes all right can you uh describe then as best you can recall the conversation that you had with the defendant after the audio cut did you ask the question again yes your honor you please describe the conversation you had with the defendant what statements did the defendant make to you during the rest of that call i believe he told me that they'd had uh tried to put uh mr floyd i didn't know his name at the time but mr flight in the car uh he'd become combative i think he mentioned that he'd injured it was either his nose or his mouth a bloody lip i think and uh eventually uh after struggling him with him uh he'd suffered a medical emergency and an ambulance was called and uh then i decided i'd head down to the scene is that the extent of what you can remember the defendant telling you about this incident i think that's basically it did he tell you whether he personally applied any particular type of force or restraint to mr floyd i don't believe so he'd tell you whether or not he had to or other officers pin mr floyd to the ground i think in the conversation there he said something about held somebody down did he mention anything about putting his knee on mr floyd's neck or back no and is the placement of a knee on a subject's neck uh a use of force yes a reportable type of force not necessarily and why is that for handcuffing somebody in a prone position or fighting with someone it could happen where your knee ends up on their neck for about how long right i guess whatever's reasonable which would be when until you get control of the party i guess control is in the person is then handcuffed handcuffed and not continuing to fight with you anymore so once the person once the subject is handcuffed and no longer resisting yes at that point the restraint should stop all right after you spoke with the defendant what did you do i headed down to the 38th in chicago where he was at this time asked to publish exhibit one 38th in chicago is within the third precinct is that correct yes and we recognize exhibit one i do you see the area of cup foods the dragon walk and the speedway is that right correct can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at the scene i think i pulled up and uh the officer were standing near their squad car and there might have been an ems vehicle still on scene and a few people milling around did you recognize the officers i did but did you speak to anybody prior to your arrival i think officer shavin called me just as i was arriving but it only lasted a second because i was like a half a block out i said i'll be right there at this time i'd ask to publish exhibit 267. sure i'm showing you a photo taken from your own body worn camera and can you see the uh time stamp there 20 45 and 26 seconds all right and you can see the name is this your cell phone yes and it's you see that you're receiving a call from the defendant is that right yeah it looks like maybe i'm about to hang up okay yes can you please just describe this conversation as best you can recall i think he uh just called to ask where i was at maybe how long i was out and i was real close i said i'll be right there we'll talk in person hung up and you can you could see from if you could put 267 up again please you recognize the building that you were near right not off hand all right if you could pull up exhibit one all right if you take a look can you recall exactly uh where you were when you pulled up as you were receiving that call where i ended up parking yes uh i think i parked over near the dragon walk kind of in that corner there right and if you could pull up exhibit 267 again that building appear to be the dragon lock yes and obviously uh since we have this photo your body worn camera was activated is that right yes you recall at what point you activated your body-worn camera probably about two blocks out at the time uh were you thinking that you were going to need to do a force review yes based on the description that the defendant gave you you've already indicated you didn't know there was pressure applied to the neck is that right right did you get any uh sense from the defendant how long this restraint lasted no i didn't have any idea when you arrived at scene based on uh your rank and being a supervisor did you become the senior officer in charge of the scene yes did you see the officers that you previously mentioned the defendant thomas lane two tao and alexander king present i did did you have some conversation with those officers about the incident yes were the four of the officers in a group at the time you had this conversation yes the people who were talking were thomas lane and alexander king is that right yes the defendant was nearby and in a position to hear yes and at that time you received a summary of what happened from officer lane and officer king is that right yes both of them gave you a statement kind of joining each other right you know without talking about what specifically that statement was after you heard their rendition of the events did you take that information and use it to determine the next steps uh that you would take yes i did and based on that conversation and uh were you told that there what had been a restraint of an individual yes i believe that they said they'd handcuffed him okay and did you learn that an ambulance had been summoned i did and did you learn that the person that had been restrained was taken away in the ambulance yes and where was that person to have been taken hennepin county medical center based on that conversation what did you decide to do i decided to drive down to hennepin county medical center myself to check on the party's condition before going to the hennepin county medical center did you give any direction to the officers that you'd spoken with i did i believe i asked them to hang out with the suspect's vehicle and gather any witnesses that may be around and who did you direct to do that i believe officer lane and king did you give any direction to officer tu tau or the defendant i did i asked them to head down to hennepin county medical center also and then you proceeded to leave the scene to go to hennepin county medical center yes before you actually left the scene did you have a further conversation or direction to the defendant i don't think so do you recall speaking with the defendant about the need to potentially interview witnesses yes i did i asked him to look for some witnesses and that was uh captured on the body worn camera is that right it should have been yes you've had an opportunity to review that footage yes at this time i'm going to ask to publish exhibit 266 and i'm also going to ask to publish 265. there are two different renditions of the same conversation in exhibit 266 you will see sort of the body position of the defendant as you're having this conversation and in the next exhibit you'll hear the audio yes sure all right in your honor i'll offer exhibits 265 and 266. those are received at this time asked to publish 266 did you recognize your own voice in that uh clip or was that kind of hard to hear it was hard to hear but it sounded like me okay and you saw that officer sheldon the defendant was sort of leaned up against your squad car is that right yes and then if this we can publish a 265 and you can take that down so you heard yourself directing uh the defendant to find witnesses and find their names is that right yes and the defendant told you that he could try but that they were pretty hostile yes but you asked him to do it anyway yes and then when you drove away where did you go hennepin county medical center do you know approximately how long it took you to arrive i'd guess under 10 minutes what did you do once you reached the hennepin county medical center i went into the stabilization room what's the stabilization room a room where they take patients who are critical and work on them there what did you see when you arrived at the stabilization room they were working on george floyd uh i think they had the lucas machine going which does automated chest compressions but who was working on them uh county medical center staff doctors nurses how long do you think you watched the staff work on mr floyd a few minutes maybe uh did you see uh or speak with any of the staff members who were working on mr floyd i spoke with the nurse while it was there did you ask the nurse for any information i was trying to get a condition update and did you i did what did the nurse tell you uh that he was doing bad or poorly okay now are you aware of whether uh per your direction the defendant and officer tao eventually arrived at the hennepin county medical center yes did you see him in the stabilization room or near the stabilization room i think outside the stabilization room exhibit 77 is a body-worn camera photo of the defendant at this time the state offers exhibit 77. 77 is received publish exhibit 77 right and you see the defendant present here is that right yes okay and also noting the time uh on the body worn camera 2105 and seven seconds is that right yes so about 905 right and you also see officer two tao yes after the nurse told you that mr floyd uh was doing poorly what did you do i believe i maybe had a conversation with uh lieutenant matson who was car night that night what's lieutenants that's what is lieutenant matson's role as car nine he's kind of in charge of the city in the evening and what was the nature of your conversation with the lieutenant well i think i just let him know that floyd was doing poorly and i think he was on the phone with internal affairs at that time giving an update on the what was going on did in exhibit 78 is another image from the body-worn camera depicting lieutenant matson offer exhibit 78 78 is received publish exhibit 78 right what do you see in this photo uh myself some of the hospital staff and it was after uh you'd made these observations that you spoke with lieutenant matson yes okay did you attempt then after your conversation with lieutenant madsen to gather more information from the the defendant and officer tao i did i think you requested me to ask them if they'd used any other force and did you have that conversation with the defendant do you recall what the defendant told you dude he said he knelt on floyd or knelt on his neck something of that nature i don't recall his exact words and is that the first time you became aware that force had been applied to mr floyd's neck yes did the defendant tell you how long he had applied pressure to or restrained mr floyd and applied pressure to his neck no at some point did you receive yet another update on mr floyd's medical condition i did uh someone approached me and let me know that he passed away and after you learned that mr floyd passed away did that change the nature of the incident you were responding to yes it was deemed a critical incident then what is a critical incident uh something like that where somebody passes away in police custody a high level you know call like a shooting or where somebody shot and killed by police things of that nature and what are your responsibilities then when it is the ship sergeant when a critical incident happens in an area over which you have supervisory authority uh it needs to be roped off with police tape and evidence preserved make sure they're turning back on okay what has to be done with the people who were involved in the critical incident they need to be kept separate and eventually transported down to the courthouse and in this case did you take specific steps that were consistent with the critical incident response i did what did you do i got a hold of sergeant john edwards who was the overnight supervisor who'd just come on and asked him to head down to 38th in chicago and secure that scene and then i believe i got hold of some other sergeants to help set up rides for the involved officers down to city hall so in uh he's contacting sergeant edwards you're essentially handing off the actual physical scene to the next supervisory sergeant for the third precinct is that right yes and you were able to secure transport officers or rides for officers lane and king i don't recollect if it was me who found the rights for those two or uh tom and chauvin but i i found somebody to figure it out can you describe your interactions with the defendant after you've discovered that mr floyd had passed away other than asking them to head down get down to 108 watching what's 108 oh room one way it's one of the rooms in the uh city hall where the officers are going to gather to be interviewed and stuff after the critical incident what did did you then proceed to um room 108 i did what did you do after you proceeded to room 108. i mostly uh just waited until the officers were interviewed and eventually headed back to the third precinct station did you have any further interaction with the defendant at room 108 or did the other administrative personnel take charge pretty much the other administrative personnel after then directing edwards to secure the scene making sure that the officers reported as they were supposed to did you at some point gather some additional evidence associated with this case i did when was that i was back at the third precinct and i believe officer lane approached me and had forgotten some information in his pocket some witness information that he'd taken from somebody in the in the vehicle and turn that over to me which i turned over to another officer to be property inventory and after inventorying that information or that material did you have any other involvement in the case i wrote a short report on turning that information over and that was it for the night okay and when did your shift end that night i don't recall what time i left the station that night now again you have reviewed the body worn camera footage associated with this case is that right yeah and as the supervisory shift sergeant you're a person who typically does force reviews is that right yes and to clarify your testimony from earlier the restraint of an individual on the ground is a form of force correct yes and restraining someone on the ground handcuffed that's considered to be the prone position correct correct would you agree that a person may be restrained only to the degree necessary to keep them under control yes and no more restraint right based upon your review of this incident do you believe that the restraint should have ended at some point in the encounters thank you rudder and sir getting back to some of your duties as a shift sergeant in conducting force reviews when you conduct a force review you typically visit the scene is that right yes interview witnesses correct yes gather all the information body worn cameras correct yes and review that footage correct yes and make a preliminary determination as to whether or not it would be necessary to forward um this for a for a review by internal affairs is that right yes and if you review some body-worn camera footage and find there's nothing to review you wouldn't forward that to internal affairs if i was doing a forced report i believe would it would go down there anyway i'll force reports too would sim would also go to internal affairs correct if you review a body-worn camera footage and determined that use of force might have been excessive do you make a recommendation to internal affairs yes in that case you'd have to contact internal affairs i submit the foundation there's the jury i'm going to have you take a break while we figure out a fairly sticky legal issue here we'll have you back fairly soon you all right we are outside the hearing the jury be seated please um mr nelson has asked for an opportunity to vladir the witness for a possible objection outside the hearing of the jury mr nelson good afternoon sergeant plueger um so in the normal course of your uh duties as a police sergeant in reviewing the use of force what you're describing is what you would normally do correct yes so if a use of force is reported to you by an officer in those circumstances this use of force review occurs by the shift supervisor correct yes and the ship shift supervisor would first and foremost report to the scene correct yes after that point um you would interview the officers that were involved correct yes you may interview the person upon whom force was used right yes you may interview witnesses to the use of force if they exist correct yes you may review body-worn cameras other evidence photographs whatever else may be a part of that process right yes and it is um much greater in um it's a it's a limited but it's a bigger scope right yes when a critical when a use of force incident becomes a critical incident however does your role change i would no longer do a use of force in a critical incident nor would i do it if someone had suffered an injury if they were handcuffed that goes up the chain then to lieutenant and internal affairs okay so in certain circumstances you would not be required to do that right correct and also in addition your honor or sergeant plugger i apologize um you did not do any of that use of force report review use of force review on may 25th of 2020 did you no you didn't speak with the officers in depth about what happened correct no you didn't interview any of the witnesses that were at the scene did you no and you didn't review the body worn cameras that night did you no in preparation for your testimony were you given the entirety of the case file for this case no i mean do you have 50 000 pages of police reports no have you reviewed any of the interviews uh from any of the witnesses no have you reviewed any of the statements that were given relevant to this case by any of the involved officers for them from those who did give statements no all right so in in in this case in preparation were you allowed to watch the entirety of all of the body-worn cameras i think i did okay and that was in preparation or while you were being interviewed with the state prosecutors right correct okay so in terms of the information you have you have a limited amount of information which would be limited to just a review of the body-worn cameras yes and that would not be the normal course for a sergeant's use of force review yes i'm still not clear as to who made the decision in this case so uh mr swisher i don't have a very much of a foundation for who gave this opinion or it gave an opinion in this case could you follow up with i i'm sorry i had a hard time hearing i don't think i have a foundation yet um it sounds like a critical incident it gets passed up who made i don't know who made the decision on use of force well there wasn't could you maybe inquire see where i can your honor i want to just clean up one part of the record first in terms of reviewing the body-worn camera footage with the state i think the question was state prosecutors you didn't review them with the with the state prosecutors but you have reviewed those with prosecutors is that correct correct other prosecutors not associated with this particular case right is that right yes now in in uh to answer the court's question in terms of whether or not you did a use of force review pursuant to the policy in this particular case you did not correct correct you passed the scene along and followed the critical incident policy you know per the critical incident guidelines is that right yes however in the course of your duties as a shift sergeant you do force reviews is that right yes you follow the policy in conducting supervisory force reviews yes and if we could pull up the exhibit again 222 you can go to the next page please in conducting a force review if you could please call out enrollment i you conduct the contact the internal affairs unit commander by phone if the force used appears to be unreasonable or constitute possible misconduct is that right yes so you make a threshold assessment of whether or not force is excessive or could constitute possible misconduct true true and if you could go to the next page call out b and again based on the totality of information available at the time if you as a supervisor feel that the use of force may have been unreasonable or not within policy you can state so in your supervisory force review is that right yes and that's the policy that you follow yes so your honor uh i don't believe that this is a lack of foundation he has clearly qualified to give an opinion and a limited opinion that based on his preliminary review as stated and disclosed he believed that the restraint should have ended very shortly after mr floyd was taken to the ground handcuffed and no longer resistant and that's the sum and substance of the opinion i intend to offer in this particular case the reason you called the lieutenant was because mr floyd died right i would have called the lieutenant be first because forrest was used and he was in handcuffs any force that results or that's used when somebody's in handcuffs requires me to call the lieutenant and internal affairs right so that went up the chain naturally that way and then when mr floyd died this use of force policy is replaced with the critical incident policy yes so your honor i guess the issue here is this is exactly what the motions in lemonade were designed to effectuate this officer sergeant plugger did not make this determination he has not done a use of force review as he would have done in this policy he has not reviewed the entirety of the evidence of this particular case and while he may have seen certain body camera footage and made some determination based on that limited information he hasn't seen everything else and so it's it's it is not within his purview and this is what the motion in lemonade was specifically designed mr slicher as i understood you're asking a narrower opinion that's correct your honor i'm asking you know exactly what i proffered that in his opinion the force should have ended very shortly after mr floyd was on the ground handcuffed in the prone position and no longer resistant you can ask that one question let's bring the jury back uh this is probably going to be our last witness how we'll see how it goes all right previous questions withdrawn mr flusher would you ask your question thank you your honor um sir based on your review of the body worn camera footage do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of mr floyd should have ended in this encounter yes what is it when mr floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers they could have entered the restraint and that was after he was handcuffed and on the ground and no longer resistant correct thank you i have no further questions your honor mr nelson [Applause] good afternoon sergeant plueger good afternoon sir thank you for being with us today a few questions that i had to follow up on with you when a police officer under your command uses force are they required to immediate immediately notify you it depends on the type of horse okay are there certain circumstances where uh you may get a phone call or a radio dispatch immediately yes are there certain circumstances or situations where you may get a phone call or a report of a use of force within 10 to 15 minutes yes are there circumstances where you may get a use of force report or from an officer from an hour or two later not one that would cause me to have to go to the scene that would be more immediate they'd want to let me know right away because i need to get out there and interview the subject right but it could happen within more than say 10 15 20 minutes that you get that notification yes um it would be fair to say that in certain types of use of force there may be other or use of force cases there may be other activities that the officer needs to do after the use of force would you agree with that yes so they may use force against suspect number one but then they have to apprehend suspect number two for example right yes and they've used force on number one but they get number two detained and it takes some time then they call you right yes or for example you an officer may use force on someone conduct some additional investigation whether it be interviewing witnesses or gathering evidence and then call you to report the use of force right yes is there a policy within the minneapolis police department that requires an officer who uses force to do that through dispatch channels no they could call you on your cell phone yes they could send you a text yes uh basically their requirement is is that they need to reach out to you and say hey we need you to come to the sea right we use force now just a second showing you uh exhibit 221 policy 5-306 regarding medical assistance what do the first four words after medical assistance read yeah as soon as reasonably practical right okay that's before sorry you got me as soon as reasonably practical right correct an officer has to use or render medical assistance as soon as is reasonably practical correct yes now are you familiar generally with the minneapolis police department's critical decision-making model somewhat essentially when a police officer is engaged in a situation would you agree that an officer is constantly taking in new information processing that information comparing it to what happened before and making decisions based on information as it comes in yes and information as an officer is dealing with the situation can change right yes and that information that they take in may change or modify the behavior in response to the situation right yes so for example sometimes an officer may decide to use a taser or a conducted electricity unit right but then realize that's not enough i better get my gun out based on the threat that proceed they perceive right yes or vice versa they may have their gun drawn realize that's too much force put it away and take out a different tool that they have right yes so officers are constantly assessing and reassessing a situation based upon the information as it comes to them agreed yes you've been you were we're an officer uh for what 27 years i think you said you've i'm assuming assuming arrested hundreds if not thousands of individuals during your career yes you've had to use force yourself yes and um would you agree with the general prosper premise that the use of force is not necessarily attractive yes sometimes officers have to do very violent things agreed yes it's a dangerous job correct have you um ever heard the term hold for ems an officer says i i held him for ems not familiar with that okay so if you are involved in a use of force situation and an officer calls for medics right isn't and i'm going to strike that an officer decides to use the maximal restraint or the hobble right but they've a medical emergency arises and they call for ems would it be consistent with the critical decision-making policy to say i'm not going to hobble this person because i know ems is on the way rephrase i'll rephrase thank you assume an officer was engaged in a struggle with a suspect and decided to use the maximal restraint technique but then the suspect had a medical emergency would it be common for the officer to decide i'm not going to use the maximal restraint technique at this point i'm going to hold the suspect in place until ems gets here objection calls for speculation so your scenarios and officers planning to use the hobble and hasn't poured on yet and then the suspect has a medical emergency and then they decide not to use them just hold them right yes when when a maximal restraint technique is applied the the suspect is essentially handcuffed behind their back and through a series of belts their legs are bent at kind of an upward angle and then connected to some sort of device uh right around the waist i don't think they bend back towards the back anymore they like to keep them straight straight right so but there's a tie between the ankles and the waist essentially correct right and if ems is on their way the restraint you've got to take that off and can delay medical care agreed you're saying taking take i'm sorry if if an officer uses the maximal restraint technique and ems has to come the officers have to remove that potentially right correct and that can delay medical treatment sure now again in your 27 years as a police officer have you had to deal with um crowds of people that form and watch your activity yes in your experience as a police officer especially in the more recent era have you been in a situation where bystanders begin to film you and your activities yes does that happen more and more these days than it did five years ago yes and have you been in a situation in your career as a law enforcement officer where the crowd starts to yell at you yes or becomes a little more volatile yes as an officer does that cause you concern yes generally speaking as a again an officer with 27 years of experience if you're dealing with one potential suspect and then a new perceived threat emerges but you know that person needs medical attention do you deal with the medical attention and ignore the threat or do you deal with the threat and then deal with the medical attention i guess you'd have to deal with both kind of simultaneously and that depends on the circumstances would you agree with that yes so for example if you were in a gun battle and someone was shooting at you and someone had a went into cardiac arrest would you stop what you were doing to to mitigate the threat or what to in order to immediately perform cpr right or would you continue with the threat i'd mitigate that threat to me you've been you've gone through all of the standard training of the minneapolis police department yes you had to deal with suspects who've been rendered unconscious occasionally you're aware that the minneapolis police department where the training indicates that need to be careful because when someone comes back out of conscious unconsciousness they can become more volatile than they were before that could happen yes you were asked a series of questions about um what you about the sergeant's uh use of force review right a force review yes and in a force review there are certain things that you're required to do correct yes that would include uh having a conversation with the involved officer right right that would involve potentially having a conversation with the suspect upon whom force was used agreed yes review of the body worn cameras right yes review of any other evidence that may exist such as witness statements uh photographs phone records whatever it may consist of right yes it's not a huge very thorough investigation it's kind of a cursory look right correct and um but there's more to it than simply watching a body-worn camera right yes in this particular case when you arrived on scene uh you initially spoke with officers king and lane and mr shovin was present in that scene yes um and he was listening as officer king and lane told you what had just happened yes now when in your experience as a police officer when a supervisor's use of force will strike that when when one group of officers goes to a scene and a second shows up to assist whose arrest is that is it the original officer or the assisting officers should be the original officer and so would when you're reviewing a circumstance is it going to be would it be your policy to talk to the arresting officers or the assisting officers first to find out what happened i i guess i wouldn't care one way or the other whoever wants to tell me the story okay and if if one officer is responsible for it you're going to go to that officer right right and if two officers you're going to ask them both correct and if all of the officers are standing around and they're talking about it that's what you need to do initially right correct now you were discussing again in this particular incident you were at when you arrived on scene you asked uh you kind of gave some direction to these officers right yes and at the point that you arrived on scene you knew it was a use of force incident but it was not what you call a critical incident agreed agreed because at that point mr floyd to the best of your knowledge was still alive uh if you know what the answer to that is one more time sir at the point that you were initially on scene you had no information that mr floyd was deceased right correct now you then um instructed the officers to do a few things right potentially talk to witnesses uh and then two officers to go down to the hospital with you yes in their squad car yes all right and um that's we saw this video uh where you instructed officer chauvin to try to get some witness statements things of that nature right yes and um he had he made the comment that he would try but the crowd seemed pretty hostile yes officer schulman and officer tao ended up at the hospital with you they did and officer king and officer lane remained on scene right yes at some point when you learned that mr floyd had died the use of force was no longer the use of force review was no longer reviewed by you correct correct someone died well and i believe even per policy if someone was a use of force occurred while someone was in handcuffs that policy required you to reach out to your superiors right that's correct and if mr floyd had not died you would have not conducted a use of force review correct correct you would have left it to the higher ups the people up the chain of command right since he sustained an injury in handcuffs and likewise once when a suspect dies in police custody you don't do a use of force review right and you did not do a use of force review in this case did you no now you talked about when it became a critical incident the officers ended up at room 100 down at city hall i think you initially said it was the courthouse but you're talking about city hall across the street yes i said it wrong that's a room that's maintained by the minneapolis police administration right right that's where any involved officers go um during a critical incident right officers who are involved or potentially witnesses to a critical incident correct and you understand um that the four involved officers were each individually transported to room 100 right i believe that was the case and you referenced um that at that point uh kind of the the critical incident policy takes over and certain things have to happen pursuant to the critical incident policy right yes um a whole host of things have to happen right yes you referenced interviews of officers you have no idea if interviews of officers occurred in room 100 on or about may 25th 2020 or may 26th of 2020. i'm not positive no that's one thing that could potentially happen right yes but not necessarily right now you testified that kind of at the end of the night officer lane or while the end of your involvement officer lane handed you a couple of pieces of evidence that pertained to the arrest back at 38th in chicago right correct or the the incident at 38th in chicago right yes do you recall what those items were i recall one for sure was a slip of paper with a name from one of the parties in the vehicle that he'd gotten okay was the do you recall the other being an identification card i think so and do you remember the name of the person that was on the slip of paper i don't would it refresh your recollection to review your report that you drafted that night yes may i approach the witness runner i'm just reading it in your head does that refresh your recollection yes what was the name on the piece of paper shawanda hill the other uh item that he handed you was an identity minnesota identification card correct correct with the name of william smythe yes i have no further questions your honor you're right please thank you your honor sir you were asked whether you agree with the proposition that sometimes police officers have to do violent things and you agree with that correct yes but sometimes police officers should not do violent things isn't that right yes you were asked about the critical thinking a model that's used and adopted by the minneapolis police department correct correct and that's a model that requires officers to continually take in information evaluate it re-evaluate it reassess and if necessary adjust their conduct correct yes and as you stated under questioning by defense counsel sometimes the information they're taking in would cause the officer to need to take more drastic measures fair yes but sometimes the information that the officer would take in would cause them to need to reevaluate what they're doing and use less drastic measures correct yes some of the information that might be relevant is whether or not this whether or not the subject is resisting correct could you say that one more one of the pieces of the information the officer may need to take in and evaluate is whether the subject is resisting correct yes and if the and if the subject is not resisting there is no longer a need to continue to restrain them correct yes and other information that might be helpful in making an assessment is to determine whether or not the subject is continuing to breathe correct yes yes at this point mr if you would rephrase would it be important for an officer response would it be reasonable then in the critical thinking model for an officer to determine and take in information about the subject's medical condition yes for example if the subject is no longer breathing would it be important for the officer to take that into account to reassess and re-evaluate what they're doing yes or if the subject no longer has a pulse for example would that be important information in the critical thinking model for the officer to take in consider and decide to maybe take a different step yes and in such a case would it be possible then that the officer would not to do need to do something violent but would need to do something less vital yes like render medical assistance yes you were asked about um a threat assessment is that right yes and you were asked about an example of whether an officer would receive a threat if there was a gun battle and need to make a determination between medical attention and and that kind of extreme threat right yes you reviewed the body worn cameras correct i've reviewed yes i've reviewed body-worn camera footage you didn't see a gun battle no nothing further so the critical decision-making model requires the officers to take in multiple pieces of information and decide uh what how to act based on the circumstances right yes other factors they may consider is the size of a crowd right yes their tactical position yes traffic sure um rendering medical aid to a person in the middle of a busy street while buses and cars are turning that may not be the best decision for an officer to make right rendering medical aid or trying to while trying to deal with other people who are upset with you or volatile towards you may come into to play agreed yes an officer who is essentially in a tactical disadvantage that will come into play yes officers have to look at lots of different bits of information and decide how to proceed based on the totality of the circumstances and not just one single fact agreed yes no further questions nothing further briefly and an officer needs to consider whether other sources of information might be relevant to the need to render medical aid correct yes including people telling the officer that a person was in need of medical assistance that might be important for them to consider sure and if somebody's communicating this in a desperate fashion that doesn't necessarily constitute a threat to the officer does it members of the jury we're going to adjourn for the day we'll try and start up again around 9 15 tomorrow we'll see you then you

Channel: Star Tribune

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Keywords: star tribune, minneapolis, st. paul, twin cities, minnesota, newspaper, george floyd, derek chauvin, police, trial

Id: sNS03pQrxHs

Length: 93min 57sec (5637 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 02 2021