Collective Healing Through Attunement

[Music] I often see people that complain don't move and people that move don't complain if I contribute something creative to society then I'm moving GLC an issue and so what can I do or what can we do or what can I support in the world that can help with that instead of complaining about it welcome to point of relation with Thomas hooble a podcast that illuminates the path to Collective healing at the intersection of Science and mysticism in his conversations with Visionaries innovators artists and healers Thomas invites guests into a relational experience that allows inspiration and Innovation to emerge this is the point of relation [Music] hello and welcome to the point of relation this is Thomas Hugo this is my podcast and I'm delighted to discuss today my new book it tuned with Amy Fox a long-term friend and Oleg and the fellow spiritual journey uh companion so Amy most welcome to the podcast thank you Thomas it's so wonderful to be here and have a chance to learn more about the forthcoming book yeah I'm happy we're having these conversations here when deeply stepped into into our work and so you know it from inside so it's oh a rich conversation I guess you uh what do you mean by attuned and uh given your Decades of work as a Healer and as a teacher what inspired you to write this book at this time yeah because I see that you know we talk a lot about relationships but actually the real relating when we say it's not the relationship like a concept it's a a noun it's actually a moment-to-moment process and the moment-to-moment process is a data flow when I relate to myself and when I feel my body for example I'm it's like I'm putting my hand into a river like and when I feel myself I feel data flow because my nervous system channels a lot of data up and down my body in order to know how I'm doing what I'm doing how I'm feeling and so on and um and so Attunement to myself is like when you achievement is like uh hitting a tune with your own voice so let's say you sing a song that you like and you sing it in the exact uh level of the the singer so you match the tune and then it seems it creates a feeling of coherence what I've been two singers on stage are very well attuned with their voices you hear it as one bigger composition not just two separate things and so relating and connection is actually an active process moment to moment it's not just because we are sitting here we are related or connected the connecting means that I tune in with you you tune in with me so I feel you you feel me and we both have representation of each other inside our experience and the more coherent is that in a representation we call that intimacy or closeness or openness and so achievement is like or when you have two cars driving on the highway and you match the speed of the other car you can open the window and talk you know because you you but if one is faster or slower you don't can talk because it's too fast and um and I think it often we don't attune to each other and that creates all kinds of issues in relationships because we actually either too fast or too slow and they don't have real time to talk to each other because we are not driving at the same speed that's maybe a short beginning of achievement beautiful so you talked about some of the practices of Attunement feeling yourself slowing down to just sort of catch the rhythm of the other person can you say a little bit more about your methodology of transparent communication and how it helps people to practice Attunement yeah one is one is self-contact I think in order to be attuned to somebody if it's not a very strong defense mechanism that we learn these children that being hyper Vigilant and Hyper aware of the outside because that's what kept us safe so there are some people that don't feel themselves but they are very aware of what other people feel because they had to develop the defense mechanism not to get hurt so that's we need to say that too but usually um my self-contact which means a self-attunement that I am aware of my inner process that there is an inner world that I I can really deeply get to know my body from inside I can get to know my emotional richness I can I can be attuned to my mental process I can I can also witness my own inner process so it's not just completely identified in me and I'm stuck as my thought but I can witness that I'm thinking so what's the part that's Witnesses witnessing the thinking what's the part that's witnessing my emotions so there's a there's a kind of an awareness also that needs to be added and so we call the coherence and also write in the book about that the coherence of my physical emotional mental data flow plus awareness is what we call the synchronization of the three three sink and we also have a three-sync practice also in the book it helps us to synchronize the physical emotional mental experience more and so I need to First be aware of myself but then also now between us there's not only air there is information flowing I feel you you feel needed we can feel how open we are with each other or how close we are sometimes so that is is a um this data between us so it's not just an empty space and it shows because when we are very open our nervous system allows a lot of data to flow when we are afraid or protected then there is less data flowing we feel more isolated even if there's another person in the room we don't feel connected so the space in between us shows us the dynamic of relational openness or closeness and and then I am also when I speak to you I'm also feeling you because feeling you is that I I get a sense of like how things land for you which things don't land for you which like what's the what's actually happening in you when I speak and so often we we think okay self-expression is I throw into the room what I need what I feel who I am or I'm doing expressing myself but I feel you at the same time and so transparent communication talks about the entire system of a relationship or a relational space where the group space doesn't matter and and the Dynamics within that relational space so that's a short like framing maybe of transparent communication so that the process becomes more and more transparent to us so that it becomes more and more visible palpable what's actually happening in my room yeah I've heard you sometimes talk about that as I you and we that you know sort of an awareness of all three dimensions of the relationship you mentioned that sometimes that kind of hyper vigilance or over attention outside costs us the self-contact aspect of the of presencing and of Attunement and I wondered if that's a partial um window into the link between your first book on healing trauma and Healing Collective trauma and this book on Attunement could you talk a little about the relationship between trauma and how it interrupts Attunement yeah when we look at trauma is an overwhelming experience so it's not it's like the what we call trauma is what happens within us in the face of an overwhelming experience so there's an overwhelming experience my nervous system that holds the capabilities of thousands and thousands of years of living because we are not the only the only one that got traumatized and many of our ancestors got traumatized too so life developed what we call a trauma response so the nervous system can basically in this very stressful situation shut down a part in order to survive better as a as an individual and also as a species I think it's a it's a very intelligent function for very adverse moments but what happens when we shut down a part of ourselves we actually shut down the function of our nervous system to resonate and feel life to resonate with and to feel life and and the second thing is that most of the trauma has been created through inappropriate relationships when a parent abuses a child when somebody is sexually abused there's all kinds of trauma that happens they are worse these are inappropriate relational spaces or conduct or actions or activities and so Earth relation Earth's relation so we're actually passing on like an echo woo we are passing on the hurt from one generation to the Next Generation from one person to the next person and and when we hurt each other so when we violate violate ethical ethical boundaries or when we violate human rights we actually part of shutting down a relational capacity that then has a lot of After Effects and that's why any kind of violence any kind of like War like you take the Ukraine war at the moment there there is such a tremendous damage being done to life and any other word of course too in Sudan in Yemen and anywhere in Afghanistan there is such a tremendous damage being done through the trauma it will affect many generations to come we are still sitting in the after effects of of this trauma impact and um and I think that's why it's so important to work for world peace to work for non-violence to find other Solutions but also when where I don't feel life I'm actually also distant numb and disconnected from certain processes so that's why the immune system in the worlds also not activated because when the party is shut down we actually don't do what we have to do sometimes in order to take care of things why are not three billion people getting up and saying we we don't do this war we will find another solution for this we don't do this but it's not happening and it seems like like a utopian when I say that but I think the reason why that's not happening is because we are collectively so traumatized and all around the world and and that's why the natural response the natural ethical response the protection of Human Rights is only part partly working well I just it's just very touching what you're saying like the repair of Attunement will enable me to feel more of my life and to metabolize more of life it will allow me to be more intimate with those around me and it will activate my responsiveness to what's happening in The Wider world I mean it's very dimensional what you're saying oh very much so and achievement is the number one like relating is and the children relating is the number one remedy for trauma it's like attuned relationships give a traumatized nervous system the ability to recalibrate itself because they are safe they're tuned they are not pushy they are not distant they are committed they're uh like warm and generous so in warm and generous committed clear relationships that are not pushy like my nervous system can start to detox the trauma because sudden needs feel safer when we feel safer we can let go of pain when we let go of pain we digest pain we integrate pain we grow post-traumatic learning and then if we create more attuned relational environments we are actually constantly contributing to the self-healing mechanism of the world because that's based on achievement and presence and um and that's why I think Attunement is so important if we want to create also not just because for some trauma we need professional therapists that are trained for years and they do this work for a long time they can work with complex trauma also they need attunements in their work and they often train this for a long time but I think we can also have a much higher Collective competence of Attunement that millions or billions of people at in workplaces in families in in our education system in our medical system how often do you see in hospitals that medical professionals are completely under tuned so there are patients and the patients are kind of lost in their Health crisis and and there is no real achievement to create safety it it and it seems like that's a soft skill but I think that's a complete misunderstanding of Human Relationships human relationships are not the soft skill that you learn by the way if you're a leader because as a as a leader a medical professional you need relational skills to to meet people in difficult situations in crisis when they are worried when their health is not good like we need somebody who feels us to feel safe and the word neuroception and Neuroscience says that your nervous system recognizes when I feel you while I talk to you it's registered as safety because when we feel felt we feel safer because when somebody feels somebody the chances to hurt somebody are way way less because we can't hurt somebody that we feel we only hurt each other when we don't feel each other and so yeah that's beautiful I mean when you were describing Thomas the qualities of patients and listening and receiving um I thought of your model of sort of reflection digestion and integration sort of these three dimensions of being the healing Force for someone else metabolizing Their Fear or metabolizing their hurt I wonder if you could talk a little about that process but before I pass it to you I really just want to honor that in your work with people you give them that generous unconditional love in such a beautiful way and many of us have had a chance to really refine our ability to be that medicine for other people through working with you so thank you yeah that's pretty cool thank you yeah it's it's exactly how you said that many of us are very busy we have full lives life gets faster and faster like our from morning to evening it's like we can fill our day so digesting first even our daily experience sometimes doesn't happen because there is no time for it because the tails are packed and then you're tired you go to the and of course when we sleep and dream we digest things but we often don't have practices to consciously digest what he stays undigested and what cannot be digested the nervous system can pack into like a compartment and keep it there like a storage but from time to time we need to empty the storage otherwise it gets very crowded in there and then the chronic stress level goes up and we can't relax anymore because our our system is too full so contemplative practices meditation like even taking a walk like having some space taking a walk listening to music and let your inner World digest your experience is a very important detox practice practice it's like I believe it's the same like taking a shower to keep the body clean is you have some kind of contemplative practice to keep up psychic clean and in our nervous system are healthy and our body healthy and but then on a deeper level trauma means that the experience that people have or that we had wouldn't be digested Wendy or short after they happened so there is actually a package of undigested data that's circling somewhere in the person's unconscious creating patterns because and it's stuck in the time where it has been heard so when somebody got hurt at the age of three there is a stack data package somewhere in the in the complexity of the nervous system stored with pain with fear with stress with overwhelm and we noticed that when we get triggered and when we get triggered somebody push that button and either it explodes or we become very distant and numb some people when they are triggered they are just numb and they don't speak or they are not related anymore because they're pulled out the relationship and and so that's why we say trauma healing in a way is a process of achievement to together e stress the system enough and create enough safety that a digestion process of the undigested material can start and when the nervous system feels safer when we feel safer we also allow more stuff to come up so if you have good relationships we can digest together and feel together which means that emotions undigested emotions are separate they seem they are stuck in me I'm scared often with no reason but I'm scared that fear has nothing to do with many moments in my day that fear is something that replays itself in like a stuck CD that I work with so maybe for decades I have these fears but then they don't confirm you know it's what it is was really a tiger or a terrorist and then that's why I was scared often we are scared but for no good reason life shows us many times that the fear wasn't connected to the situation so that's why hurt emotions seem like privatized healthy emotions are the connective tissue between us so when when you're afraid I am afraid and you feel me I feel met in my fear and the fear becomes part of the connection when somebody is angry and we can stay we feel the person while they are angry then the anger can become part of the sadness the shame whatever can become like a a heel tissue not a separate wound like a heel tissue so emotions is are actually the connective tissue in a Humanity or also most probably in animals in mammals for example but the the um the the point that I'm making is that when when we recreate spaces together where relational capacities where we feel again felt then we begin to we can reflect together we can become aware of stuff we can slowly digest that stuff and we can and when we digest like with food food gets integrated into the body the nutrients become the body so the trauma content when it's getting integrated actually gets in like it's integrated into the nervous system and becomes post-traumatic learning so my perspective on life grows I become wiser and more mature become more open more relational many things that many people really desire in their life actually happen when we have an appropriate environment to integrate These Old Wounds yeah and you talk about one of the costs of us not having that sort of quality of transparency Community belonging is that we we don't feel each other and we don't feel the planet um I wonder if you could say a little bit about the lack of Attunement to The Wider ecosystem yeah it's the same like we're we're where I'm related I care for my environment I'm caring citizen in my community in my country I I or I don't know every every parent when you're part when you're a parent you need to be part of like a healthy food system you need to be part of a healthy education system you need to be part of many systems so you start to care as a mature citizen how is the level of Education what actually is happening there what's happening with the food that we consume what's happening in different systems in order to create a healthy environment for our children to flourish and and I think that that kind of care comes when we when we feel something when we don't feel something or when we are constantly bombarded through news with all kinds of from the work here the war in Yemen the war in Sudan the the crisis here the the climate crisis impact there like there's so this cool shooting here here it's there's so many dramatic um information packages that are circulating which the speed of light around the planet like it's it's um it's we need to have a certain practice not only that we carry also trauma we are bombarded with trauma content and the way how to deal with this is to not feel then I'm intellectually engaged I know what CNN says but it doesn't mean that I feel what CNN says because to feel emotionally and in my body not just my own upheaval or my own disturbance about it that's one part but to feel the situation that's often not what's happening because it's too overwhelming and it's okay that it's too overwhelming I think we just need to create more Collective awareness that a lot of the processes that are happening in our society are happening without our Collective felt awareness and that's the recipe for it to continue the way it is because unconscious processes are bound to repeat themselves Freud already said this the repetition compulsion of trauma what we are not aware of is bound to repeat and so when we culturally are not aware of certain parts in our society because we are living in this box of hyper individualism especially in the west both then then many things human trafficking criminal rates racism anti-Semitism these things like this is continuing because we are not there we are not fully engaged we are not fully engaged to stop certain things that are not okay and it re-creates the vicious trauma cycle around the world and so that's true that it's it's also part of my achievement it's not just to myself or to other people instead human to my workplace it's when I feel my workplace I'm much more engaged in my workplace because I'm I'm part of I feel like I'm part of it I'm not just coming doing my work leaving I'm creating relationships it's meaningful I'm belonging to a social network and the same is true for society either I'm just complaining about what's happening in the world or I'm I'm taking responsibility I see when I complain I don't move people I often say people they complain don't move and people that move don't complain if I contribute something creative to society then I'm I'm moving so you'll see an issue and so what can I do or what can we do or what can I support in the world that can help with that instead of complaining about it there's no big daddy that should save us there is we are we are mature people that need to take certain things into our hand or support other people to do things that they can do better than we but at least be supportive to Building Solutions and uh it's very powerful what you're saying and I'm sure for many of us listening there's many things that are happening in the world that are alarming and way heavily in our hearts and to start to understand that this cultivating this quality of Attunement is to start the repair process not just in my own life but in what I can serve in life um it feels very profound to me and I it in the book you talk about relational mysticism which is really in a way a phrase that encapsulates the depth and wisdom of the work that you're bringing these sort of links between repairing trauma and repairing the world and bringing in more light to the world I wonder if you could talk a little about what you mean at its depths about really what that what does that mean relational mysticism yeah I'm a big fan of of like practicing our spiritual practice mysticism is like the mystical science just this the core of all kinds of big Traditions had a mystical core these are the people that were very connected to the essence of the practices and why they work they understood why these practices make sense because they put a lot of energy around their whole life into practicing and that develops like a certain competence so some of these mistakes in different traditions and you see descriptions in Christianity in the yoga tradition you see it in Sufism you see it in Kabbalah you see it in Shamanism you see it in all kinds and daois and Tibetan Buddhism there the inner teachings that are really about the Deep practices to deepen our conscious awareness to grow as people to develop more love more compassion to change our inner worlds into a more free open Connected awake in a world these practices they are not Just Happening by accident they there is a there's a kind of an what I call in the inner science of these practices so and I believe like some of these practices have been designed for monasteries for caves for people that in a way renounce their life in the world and and spent their life they made a decision to go into Solitude or into a monastery and to practice something very deeply which is great I think to make that decision is great but many of us that are hearing this now are not sitting in a cave we are not sitting most probably in a monastery so we are living in the world we're living in society we're living you know with all maybe we are parents we have jobs we we are dealing with climate change and so we need I believe a spiritual practice that is deeply relational and that makes relating and our life in the social body our practice and that's and I think that sometimes different practices needed that's why I think living in the world needs a trauma integration practice because otherwise I get constantly triggered by people by situations it's difficult I dislike certain people I polarize like other I I can do many things that I'm sometimes not even aware of how biased I am and what I contribute to the world without even knowing that I'm doing that and and so I think that when we when we take the essence of the mystical traditions and apply it to the market what I call the Marketplace life our daily lives in society we have to adapt some of the practices and some spiritual practitioners they practice practices that I actually designed for monasteries which can create in their life a bit of a disturbance and it actually makes us weaker in life it helps us to develop certain Consciousness capacities but it doesn't necessarily help us to ground those and become a change factor in in our society so to to support the evolution of our world and I think when we commit everybody can decide to go to a monastery and once we and that's not an easy decision for most of the people so that's why only if you do it and then it's great then you have a set of practices but in in society I think being in a relational environment all the time maybe work and we are parents when we are lovers when we are uh citizens I think we relationship relating and relationships have to become a central part of our practice you know well it's like an awakeness in the fabric of life exactly um when you talk in the book about uh individual ancestral and Collective fluidity as one of these competencies that you're sort of pointing to and describing um that feels like a very important new idea uh in the healing world because one of the things you've been pioneering is really asking us to look not just at our own individual life story but to look longitudinally at our lineage and to look more broadly at how we're part of a collective um both uh carrying lineages of trauma but also potentially part of a repair process a restorative process could you talk a little about what you call IAC even the term trauma is still making its way into our mainstream Society let's say although Neuroscience trauma science psychology social sciences some of them start to adopt this term because we see or also medicines start to adopt this term deeper and deeper in the last decades because it's so significant for many health issues mental health issues so trauma is a really important understanding of certain processes inside that we can work with once we understand them much better than before so um so it's making its way into society now though I think trauma is being related to soldiers people who have accidents and people do that went through severe traumatizations in their childhood maybe but I believe that's all true obviously but when we see trauma in in a in a hyper individualized World We There is a tendency to see it as an individual process and I would say it's not true trauma is a systemic issue that has individual consequences so that of course individuals get hurt often well as we speak here most probably it happens millions of times around the planet but for example when children experience attachment trauma trauma in their relationship with their parents because then neglected they are heard there's domestic violence alcoholism abuse so that happens because the parents yeah it happens because the parents are traumatized most probably their parents were traumatized and look at how many post-war societies actually have high rates of domestic violence and there are all kinds of traumatizations that are the echo of the war trauma and and or racism 400 years of ongoing traumatizations it's it's super painful and and it's still going on it's not that it stopped and now we're just dealing with the wounds no it's it's happening and so there's this recurrent cycle that um I believe needs to be seen as a systemic issue trauma is a systemic design factor it designs our societies and we have to learn to see trauma as a systemic uh um Vector that we all live in it's like there's a substance in the water that we all grew up in some of us inhaled more of it maybe some of us less but it's systemic and it's in different cultures around the world you find it there's not all this part of the world is great there's no trauma and this part of the world is very traumatized no it's quite Universal and and I think only when we see that we normalized because we grew up in a partly traumatized Society our teachers had some of it our parents and some of it our grandparents politicians like we see it all the time so we see trauma symptoms but we say sometimes oh that's how life is and I would say no that's not how life is that's how life is when it's hurt many things that we see in daily life when you watch the traffic when you see how people treat each other on the street or in supermarkets or in all kinds of places in institutions how foreigners are being treated in in different countries how we treat people that have different color of skin that have a different I don't know like cultural background like there's a lot of stuff happening and and the trauma is systemic and and only when we begin to see trauma as a systemic factor and as an as an intergenerational process that many people that were in a holocaust and survived that you can see how the next Generations carry the trauma residues in themselves although they haven't been in the Holocaust but they got it with the mother milk you know or with the sperm we got it like through epigenetics we got it through the way we relate to each other and we got it through a psychological environment at home and we got it through the psychological environment in the country so that trauma is actually a multifaceted layered experience it has an individual process but it's always as I say I I Infinity it's like Collective I Infinity C which means every individual is inherently interdependent with its ecosystem that it arises although that means all the resources we carry inside that the ecosystem has but also the trauma that the ecosystem has lives inside of us and it's not just in an individual box it's the whole individual ancestraling Collective and I think if we can expand our vision I think we will accelerate the collective healing process much more and and that and I call it fluidity because I don't like the word method because method puts us often into a box I learned this method and then I apply it and I would say no I learn process capabilities and capacities and skills and the process is fluid methods become a bit stuck concept about and then I try to apply a concept onto a situation that actually needs a bit needs more achievement to be refined and of course there are there are things we can learn about trauma Collective trauma and so trauma and we have to learn it but the application is a fluid relational process and and the other reason why I call it fluidity is because of trauma healing is liquefying the ice in individuals to intergenerational data streams and and the society and when the ice becomes fluid then there's more change there's more responsiveness there's more responsibility there's more participation there's more relational coherence there's many things there's more presence so we actually liquefying the permafrost in our cultures or in our selves and the more fluid they become the more we can literally change with life and we see now with climate change we are actually changing kind of too slow but it's because of the gravity of the systemic trauma that can't respond to change that doesn't want to change because it wants to be Frozen that's its its purpose yeah that touches me so much it's like you can't heal heal Frozen life with a mechanistic application of a methodology you have to cultivate the aliveness and the vitality and the Attunement to be emergent and dialogical with what you're trying to heal or respond to beautiful um just to close us Thomas I'm sure many people will be very moved by what you're sharing and um and and look to the book for Rich resources could you give us just one thing people might do or start to practice to increase their kind of Attunement you're inviting us to with themselves with each other and with life yeah I think there are two things first um like a curiosity in matching movement so when I drive with a car there's another car let's see on the highway and I play with driving as fast driving a bit faster a bit slower and they get a feeling of what that means I get a feeling of what it means that we are at the same speed and at the same speed it looks like as if you're standing beside each other even if you're driving with 100 kilometers an hour it actually it seems like still between the cars so matching movements when you sit on a plane to feel the movement of the plane when you sit when you listen to music and you want to match it tune with your own voice and you learn to that's a tune that's the organic language of Life resonance is the universal language of life when you when you feel a tree when you feel a situation when you listen to somebody that speaks and you feel the person when you listen deeper you're actually attuning to their movement to their life experience their inner movements to their outer movements so you get a sense and being interested in in the movement like when I feel you my movement which is perception data flow all I know about myself is Flowing data and all I know about you is Flowing data too so my perception perception is data flow so one data flow communicates and fills another data flow so we're actually like in a river we are actually merging Through Rivers into a mutual flow and that's precise Attunement and that and that applied for therapies means we have precisely tuned to different levels of development that our clients bring to us so that's one practice the other practice is that in order to attune more I need to learn to develop more presence in myself which means I learned to maybe slow down a bit my exhalations I connect with every exhalation to my body I feel how staying one two three minutes just with exhaling with slower longer my nervous system and then I I can chill more of my body as my nervous system relaxes I start to feel more I become more reflective I can digest better so I learned to do this multiple times during a day just for a few minutes or even just for one minute breathe slow down by breathing a bit my body notice where my body is most likely most energized present where I feel myself well which parts of my body I inhabit well and and I create a deeper connection it's like when I when you play a guitar or make a piano you need to film that piano because if it's not tuned it doesn't sound good so we need to learn to use the instrument of our body to practice achievement because my whole body is like an instrument a music instrument and because my whole body is full of my nervous system and when my body feels your body I start to be in tune with your physical reality and my emotions resonate with your emotions we I feel what you feel before you tell me what you feel and then you should tell me but it feels great but if somebody is afraid we can feel that the person is afraid I don't need a translation like a Google translate through my mind and it can happen directly and I think all of these are lovely practices to get more grounded to become more present to become more Mindful and that were presence we experience the easier it gets to a tune to life to be in tune with life to sing with the music or the orchestra life I wonder so thank you so much for this Rich conversation Thomas and for anybody listening the Thomas's new book of tunes will be available on September 12th we hope you'll look for it and share it with your friends and community may it be a deeply restorative healing instrument of this work finding its way to many more people tongue thank you amen thank you for this conversation you know it's very generous thank you thanks for listening to point of relation with Thomas hooble stay connected and get updates about new episodes by visiting our website point of relationpodcast.com and by subscribing to the Thomas hooble YouTube channel if you enjoyed this video please like it and share about us with your community on social media thank you we appreciate your support [Music] thank you

Channel: Thomas Hübl

Views: 8,642

Keywords: collective healing through attunement | thomas hübl, collective healing through attunement, collective healing, attunement, thomas hübl, collective trauma, trauma healing, trauma, attuned, heal our trauma, amy fox, individual trauma, ancestral trauma, transparent communication, remedy for trauma, process of digesting trauma, relational mysticism, tips for attunement, point of relation podcast, mysticsm, meditation, healing, thomas huebl, global healing, intergenerational trauma

Id: tHIQnJ8ysWQ

Length: 43min 22sec (2602 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 18 2023