Cold Email Masterclass with Alex Hormozi, Eric Nowoslawski, Enzo Carasso, and the Instantly Founders

Alex welcome to the show excited to have you with us today wel to be here let's do it awesome well let's get straight into business today I brought the greatest mind on around code Outreach uh they all prepare really exciting question for you today but probably the most requested question ahead of this call what is the best Cod Emil artre you ever received and why it caught your attention the best one is actually the voicemail script that I put in the book which is uh hey this is John I'm calling about Burger King uh you know give me a call back so you talk about the competitor of theirs and you just have it's a completely open hook and I think it also probably would work for cold EML I just know that I got from a voice uh that's the best open hook to uh get set call that's amazing a gym launch um you guys talk with one out of five gym in the US this is a completely wild number we're talking about 25 20% of a time how you guys were able to make that happen how you achieve such scale so two things one is that we didn't change our business over and over again uh number one uh number two is uh we I mean it's really honestly it's just number one is that we didn't change our business over time and we had two reliable ways of getting customers and we continue to do that month after month after month for you know six seven years now that's it I mean there's you know there's whatever 150,000 gyms you do the math on how many gyms you know you sell and you think about you reverse that to how many gyms have showed up for appointments and that's it you know we just talked to a lot of gyms so a lot about the fundamentals and keep doing the boring work same thing over and over and again yeah amazing Eric I think you got your next one yeah absolutely uh and so in the book when you were talking about the cold Outreach specifically uh you knew that a competitor was doing it and you could kind of see a little bit of Revenue going in but what was the kind of sign of life in the channel That made you say you know we got to keep investing in this this is a 12- month Journey not not a three-month Journey well F I mean to me the easiest decisions to make are the ones where you already see somebody else doing it so like then like break it down to physics why like if I'm if I'm getting in contact with people I'm I'm in front of someone's eyeballs that is my ideal customer with enough iteration I can get them to move to the next step right and that's basically I mean the reason I like cold outbound so much is that it's it's so reliable now it just it just takes more time to get the Nuance of the the audience that you're going after and you know you guys are in the game so you get it like there's there's just a hundred tiny little steps but I encourage people who are getting into that game to just only look at progress from one step to the next and one step to the next one step to the next and then like it takes a very long time to lay all the bricks across the bridge but then once the last bricks in all of a sudden the money just that was just stockpiled boom it flows through and so yeah and and you also can the nice thing was there's so many once you do get the first dollar across then you just start turning dials like okay how can I get open rate up how can get show rate up how can I get close rate up can I change this offer like all that kind of stuff um and then it can just become a really well old machine yeah like you say not a silver bullet just 100 golden B dud hundreds of golden BBS yeah so when you were planning to EXP from expand from gym 7 to gym 10 you were still doing 12 hours of sales meeting a day from 8 to 8 yeah when do you think is the right time for a Founder to remove himself from the front end of the sales process and how do you think they should organize themselves building their first sales team I think it depends a little bit on the business because I want to give hard and fast rules because it does depend also how proficient you are like if you're a natural salesperson and you're very good at it then it can make it can make a huge difference in the business like the business sometime can't sustain uh you not selling right and so I think it's better to just like continue to sell add people to the team you act as sales manager really sales lead because at least as I Define it you've got sales people sales lead who kind of mentors the people and then sales manager uh who's really in charge of like recruiting hiring training management culture for the team for me it starts to get a little bit to basically lead turns into manager if they have the right character traits and like actually enjoy investing in people are not just like Killers which there's a place for them but they are not the best managers they're usually actually terrible managers um usually around four like right as you're getting into four into five is when one person can pop up uh and then now you're managing the sales team and then at that point I would try and see either is there somebody that been grooming since day one to take this over for me and if you don't think that you don't feel that way about any of the people which means you're probably not the good of a sales manager as a side uh you can recruit from the outside and bring them in and I usually look for somebody who has experience in a comparable industry and type of sale and I would say type of sale probably matters more than the industry in my opinion uh so like if you're in high volume transactional sales it's a very different type of sales profile and training than let's say you know six month SAS sales right but it's a very different type of person different skill set that you have to teach and so I'd run them you don't want to take like a I grew our you know B2B SAS company from 10 million to 100 million I'm like what's the sales cycle six months and I'm like I'm not going to put that guy into transactional weight loss business it doesn't really even though he had this great track record and maybe we're at 10 million we went get to 100 it's probably not going to work out that make total sense really interesting so uh so Enzo and I both run cold email agencies and then roll and Nils ran a cold email agency the past I send like I don't know like a million cold emails a month at this point and so sometimes clients come to us and they're like hey you know this is the copyrighting we're using on our website or this is the copyrighting we're using on our ads we we should put this in email and I always tell them no way we're not doing that um and it's because I the channels are just different and so when you are doing your Outreach how do you do the copyrighting so that it's different or like what are the differences for doing copywriting on Facebook ads versus cold Outreach you know I don't have a very good answer um I just think about what what makes like what like my biggest like copyrighting like frame is what would I respond to that's that's like my my my simplest you know like frame that I look at for like if I see an ad I'm like what would actually get me to respond to this now a big part of that the offer right uh but like how it's written and the same thing with the email like sometimes long emails don't necessarily convert into higher you know higher response rates on cold like it really kind of depends on the industry and what what the what the offer is um so yeah I the the the change for me would just I I love I think Gary has this really good um analogy for it but it's it's it's really contextual it's like walking to a nightclub versus walking to a library even if you're the same person you might dress differently and you could look out of place um and so even though like I think that if there's a Facebook ad that looks really good I'd be like what is the what's the core message of this and can I translate this into what would appear to be onetoone communication and so like the biggest difference between an ad so this here's my roundabout way of answering if you're running an ad versus an email one is one to many one is one to one and You' probably like the best way to get someone to ignore one toone communication is to make it look like it's one to Mone yeah so you can tell that to your clients yeah they absolutely yeah to bounce back on that I think you know we can all agree that the entire cold arish process is really about increasing someone conviction that they they will receive value if they respond to if they respond to our email sure I think you guys reaching out to 20,000 leads daily acquisition. comom I'm curious to know how you guys make everything work and how you personalize a this scale yeah well it is different companies so that's between that's between portfolio companies not one company just for for you know Clarity um the personalization will you could obviously there's tools now that will that can do personalization um but we use uh vas a lot of times to help find the little tidbits that get put into the email so during the data enrichment process um that's one of the things that we'll do uh from a tactical perspective I am also like five levels above this so like I'm giving you like the the manager of that of those teams would probably know a lot better answers than me uh but just with broad brush Strokes uh vas are a big part of it uh we use software tools whenever we can uh to automate any kind of personalization and a big part of it um really comes down to how good the lead magnet is which is what like I put a specific part on the C Outreach of like big fast value um like even even even and especially things that are quote not scalable get C the craziest response rates in my opinion and so the big breakthrough that we had in the cold Outreach process uh that I showed the the numbers on was when we switched the lead magnet and that was what what made the huge bump um in in response rates and then ultimately sales that's really interesting so you guys would also implement the Lima straight into the copy uh that you sent to to your base totally okay totally well because I want like if I'm talking to a complete stranger it's like they don't care so it's like let me give you this thing that obviously costs money because I am so confident that I can provide you value and even if you don't buy anything from me you will get real value because other people in the marketplace charge for this thing so it's not like me ascribing value to it it's saying other people charge for this and then then on the back end it's like okay great how can I oper the [ __ ] operationalize the [ __ ] out of this to drive down my cost so that I can do this at scale whatever my my little lead magnet deliverable is and so like sure like the information lead magnets in my opinion are overdone um because one they're usually sucky fluff and so everyone knows that and even if your isn't the likelihood that people still think it is is high whereas giving portions of service away for very specific problems I think it's probably my favorite type of lead magnet that we can do like if I had a you know I think I give an example of you know if you're if you're an IT company that has you know servers you can show that you can increase speed load times and how that's going to affect their company it's like hey let me just do this I'll do it for free and you'll immediately see an increasing conversion and then what do you do after that it's like well do you want to keep it right like bye uh and so it's really like I try and look at everything that we do and like if I'm looking at a business and we want to start building out cold outbound I'm like okay when we have a customer that comes in there's probably a hundred little things that we do is there one of these things that's incredibly high value that's very fast that I can operationalize and so that we peel that off and then I make that the lead manic because if I'm going to do it anyways in the onboarding experience I might as well check the box early and if someone doesn't buy from me at least they have nothing but positive to say so we keep following the the same principle give give give give give until they ask even through Cod email all C out General Super C Outreach I will make an Ask usually you know after I make the give I will make an ask but from a Content perspective that's the the organic side of course yeah just just for clarity for the audience yeah no absolutely absolutely and I think so and now jumping in because I just really want your opinion on this you probably could have been the largest affiliate for open aai when they released GPT 4 because of just how much you were you were talking about it um you're talking about like these tools but like how have you started creating Frameworks or have you started working with portfolio companies of how they can start using gp4 and AI in their cold Outreach and in order to to scale it um the the guys who are do so the companies that we have that have outbound as their as their primary method have already implemented that so that I that was from bottom like I I didn't create a flame r that they then started using I just told all the portfolio companies like use this like take a week figure out a tool that you can use that's going to automate some element of the process and see how it works and if it works keep it if not try enough it was just more of a top down directive nice yeah sorry that's a little bit more boring answer no no absolutely ER I think you have the next one oh uh he so Alex you kind of answered this but sometimes we have clients who they sell to gigantic Enterprises with gigantic Enterprise contracts like five I I've got one client actually it's literally a $5 million contract the the sales cycle is nine months the implementation is a year it could take a really really long time to get them to switch to anything other than a call to action saying hey you know like you want to hop on a call and talk about this uh is very difficult because they don't believe me that we would actually be able to provide some kind of value and so as the contract size gets bigger I normally have clients who think that they can't give away free value because there's so much time and they got to know so many things and this that and the other thing you kind of answered it maybe you could go a little bit deeper when the contract value is that high but you chunk up to what do all these what do all these customers have in common and is there one step that you have that is the same across all of the customers that you have and then I would just say cool let's P like it is a little bit of research on your side right or or on their side of okay these are the servic we provide now they probably have a lot if they're that contract size with that type of customer there's probably a lot of custom right I would imagine that's probably a big part of their value prop but even even if you do a vanilla white label version that's 80% if you provide that for free then You' be like this just gives you an idea and this is me doing this for free when we personalize it's going to have all like even still giving them a taste I still think would outperform and I think from a convincing them perspective the easiest thing to do is give evidence so like strong arm SL highly incentivize one of those customers and say I will do this additional amount of Outreach my way at no cost because this is me giving extending the same favor to you but here's the deal if it if my way works better we switch to my way like do you want to make more money I would like to make more money for you let great like let's dance yeah yeah it was funny even just today I had a client who uh our call to action was we were AB testing booking a call versus like making a free Loom AUD audit and the SDR was like I don't want to make loom audit Audits and I was like we're getting a 4 to one response rate over here so let's start making some Loom audits right and then you just operationalize that thing like that's the like then you you templatized and sop the [ __ ] out of that so that you can start turnning those out like that's the key and if you really need to because if you have like just amazing Setters then you just have it like when you really start scaling this like at gym launch we basically operationalize the Second Step as a separate team and so that's when you get into like sales offs right and so they would actually deliver the lead magnet as a separate team who then all they do like one guy just makes looms for everyone all day long and then the sdrs can still just keep banging this is once you have enough skin absolutely yep and you prob so let's say you're Alex with all current knowledge but no audience no wealth and you can only a lead generation agency and use C email as a business for the rest of your life how would you start and how would you grow it I feel we have like so many beginners listening it' be super interesting to see how would you start from scratch so I have to use cold outbound and lead generation is the service that I have to sell yeah for the rest of your life for the rest of my life oh who would I go after I would go after private Equity firms and I would do cold Outreach to get them businesses that want to sell and those are contractually obligated that I can get a percentage of all the sales and then I would do lead in for every private Equity Firm out there and then get them as many deals as I could I was literally on a coaching call yesterday and I told everybody that's like the easiest highest leverage Niche that you could get into it's just like you got to know the right people and it's like I I've got like two clients in it it's so much fun as [ __ ] though the sales so that's actually you know yeah exactly I've tried to get into that Niche and we did a couple of deals but that was the thing was the Sal cycle was so long that I was I was just like website well never mind I won't say that never mind but yeah uh definitely that was about to jump by that's probably one of the most interesting field really really long sale cycle the once he pays he pays for all the time you've been waiting for and you know businesses because I know that I can wait longer than other people and so then it's like not difficult it's just you just have to be a different person which I I like like if you've seen my tweets like I love games re you wait you win like I always want to play those games I need game for sure Neils I get you uh yeah so my question would be what are the key elements of creating an eight fig appointment setting in sales team like what makes makes it work what what does it look like yeah biggest thing is the customers who you choose like if I had to pick one factor it's going to be who you choose to sell like you could do the same level of activity you know doing outbound for SEO for small businesses versus like the private Equity example I gave and on a 36-month Time Horizon you would make so much more money uh doing the private Equity thing it just you'd have to wait maybe 18 months before you got your first paycheck whereas the SEO thing you could sell in you know you know two days so the biggest one is going to be uh the the customer that you go after and then you know the next thing is just like how good you are at operationalizing things so that's where like Tech and automation can definitely play a huge part uh but the the quality of the people that you're able to hire to to basically build the culture of the teams because I mean any kind of agency or service is super offs heavy it's very people heavy even with Automation and so culture becomes not that culture is not important any business but it's especially especially important with service based businesses okay this is like so I I had a question about the the core well I have two questions about the core four I suppose and so the the first one is about you know it is cold Outreach something that every business should attempt to master and take a shot at um for inance one time we ran oh yeah no I mean I wouldn't say should for anything I just like there are four ways to get to get customers and like pick one especially if you're start if you're like trying to go to you know seven figures or even eight figures you can probably just get away with one of them uh if you want to go beyond that sometimes you have to introduce other things but combinations work really well that's like content and cod Outreach works really well content and paid ADS works really well um content I think is a very is an underappreciated one because it just takes a long time like that's the problem it's just like the Equity example is that it's just the the reward comes at such a delay that most people can't do it R you got the next one I think so we have a lot of people getting responses and one I things they struggle with is increasing show up rates for high ticket B2B companies so what's your process or some tips that people can get more people to show up on meetings demos sales calls yeah so this is really interesting so I've gotten this question four times today um and so I will say this is that across the board consumers continue to be less and less responsive right so that's just going to always be a trend and that's why I think that investing in brand is going to be increasingly important in a low trust environment and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing so number one and just to give you guys like a mind bending example like I will tell you what the show up rate is on acquisition. comom calls it's 100% even if it's two weeks out so and they do that because they're looking forward to the call because we have already given them a positive experience up to this point they've already received value from us and so they feel like the likely that they're going to receive that from that call is high right and so we take that as the extreme example on the opposite end it's you have none of those things so I'll give you the four kind of pillars of lead nurture because we owned Allen which was a software company that all it did was work leads and so we were doing 4,000 appointments a day and so we had a uh machine learning specialist who just cut the data 100 ways to Friday to figure out what are the actual things that drive through put so there are four so number one is availability so that is by far by a long shot the biggest driver of throughput on any funnel that sounds surprising because I was very surprised by that too meaning the total number of days that you have available for appointments and the total number of hours per day that you're available kind of weird and so what's interesting is that even providing more days in the future that someone can book which was counter to what I felt anecdotally as a salesperson like if you put more days out you will get more people to book but your show rate will be lower but your total throughput on the funnel goes up so you basically get more people to book who otherwise wouldn't have booked because the time was convenient but your individual as a Salesman your show rate is lower and so then you have to play the interplay between those things which is okay well my utilization rate on my sales team is going to go down but my total number of showed appointments is going to go up but regardless if I want want to immediately increase the number of appointments that are coming in on any type of funnel I increase availability in terms of days uh hours per day and time slots per day so doing like 15minute appointments time slots rather than 60 Minutes even if you do it on 15minute intervals people will perceive that the appointment is a shorter time period so even if it's a 60-minute appointment having 15minute increments increases booking rates so pillar number one is availability p number two is speed to contact so and that's there's two elements of speed contact is from the uh like you know you're following up immediately and uh also if they like you're following with the lead as soon as they opt in as soon as they reply but then also again later if they reply six hours later you're also speed to contact so like if you're having a conversation there's a back and forth It's maintaining that speed of response so that's number two number three is the volume of reach out so the number of times that you follow up with a prospect over five days so if you're following up three times a day over five days uh that seems to be a very like at minimum and for all that stuff we double dial text on all of them uh to get a higher response rate get people to book and show and then number four is the personalization right and the big piece on personalization is sure there's the component of send personalized videos uh you know have the personalized you know Loom audit have that element of personalization but the other part of it is responding on the channel that they prefer to communicate on and so if I am if I you know because we hit everything so we would text we' Facebook DM we'd Instagram DM like I would wherever I can find you I'm gonna message you right and then wherever they respond is now where we talk which then means you can centralize the messages and there's plenty of apps that do this uh now that you can have one centralized inbox for all all media channels and so the automation hits all of them and then consolidates it in for the person who's working the leag and so that way you can stay on the channel they prefer like for me I will never respond to anything I just don't respond but I respond to texts and so if if a sales guy no matter how good he is is trying to email me to get attention I'm never going to respond I wouldn't respond to my own mother I'm not gonna respond to anyone but if I get a text I'll respond so it's very personalized from that perspective as well and so this kind of the four pillars of lead nurture is we saw them just looking at a ton of day that's instantly valuable um I think nil you have the next one uh yeah so for the other question would be what are the three biggest uh inflection points or breakthroughs you had with uh called outrage uh success you mentioned one already with the lead lead magnet are there any others no I mean by far that's number one so creating an insane lead magnet and operationalizing that in creating an unscalable lead magnet that then you then scale like that is by far Bar Bar None the biggest response rate boost that you're going to get and whenever I look at constraints I always try and go to the top of the funnel because going from 1% to 2% or or 1% to 3% or 3 and a half% there are very few other parts of the funnel where you get you know a 2 and a half% increase and it actually triples you know the amount of actual throughput through the entire process and so usually I'll work from front to back because if you and I think I talked about this in the book on more better new in that section you can always determine the constraint based on if I were to add a fixed percentage to every aspect of my funnel where do I see the total the largest increase in absolute throughput and so I focus from that perspective um so number one is that uh number two is going to be training for the team so learning to train like I mean as silly as it sounds like actually role playing and heavily rewarding script adherence equally to and sometimes even more than the outcome of the calls because if you think about this you like everybody here hopefully has taken a cold call before or taken you know I'm assuming everybody here has um if you can put your salesman head on for a second and remember what it was like if you knew that you could make money by simply perfectly exing the script then the pressure of the call goes down what also happens is adherence to the script goes up and when you hear to the script more you get more sets or you get more closes and so creating a culture of the script is God and if we like we don't deviate from the script if the script isn't working then everybody is adhering and then we can change the script but until we have absolute adherance to the script you can't do anything and so that is just a principle from sales teams that like has to be nailed down otherwise you basically have a bunch of Lone wolves that close whatever way they possibly can and what happens is you get a lot of people who create false positives so what I mean by that is like they go off script once and they get a close and then they're like oh I'm going to do this next time and next time and they learn bad habits because they get reinforced for doing the wrong thing and so I would go so far as to say if you don't follow the script and you close I'm not paying because you're also promising things that that aren't aren't good right now if we want to add something to the script then we decide as a team this makes sense and then we'll add it in for everyone and we'll actually be able to split test but until you can get adherence from the team and the reason I like the emphasis on the script so much is that it's so easy to drill like if the script becomes God then it becomes very clear what the job is and then you can control this much more at scale and that's really how you can scale the sales team um and then obviously making sure that the manager understands that their job as a manager is the enforcement of Standards which is that these are the cultural norms of this team like that is the job of the manager is what is the culture of this team so if you have a shitty culture on the team is the fault of the manager so in terms of you know the the the the biggest increase number one is lead magnets number two is script is God and I would probably say the culture thing I'm not going to that's a bonus one uh the third one is was uh where we're getting our leads from so the list is still King if you're you know if you hit a terrible list it doesn't matter how good everything else is you're not going to get responses and so really B putting more effort into thinking how can we clean lists and scrape lists from better sources that have more qualified leads uh is probably like of all of the things that's that's that's probably even more important than lead magnet because you have to have that before you can introduce anything else like you email a bunch of moms and you're talking about sasp software like it really doesn't matter so that number one and then the other two all of us all of us have definitely said that to our customers at some point um yeah to go possibly out on a limb here could I get a two-minute roast of some copy that I wrote for gym launch and see what you think of it oh for gym launch yeah sure yeah so uh this would be an outbound campaign to only gym owners that have one location because we could scrape Google Maps for all of this and they have uh at least four and five star Google reviews otherwise the campaign doesn't really make sense so subject new members first name I was looking for gyms in location because we're scraping Google Maps we have that and saw the Google review uh the member name so Eduardo left about and then we can use AI to summarize the review that they left so about how clean the gym is whatever um have you thought about running ads with your successful members front center the reason I asked is we help gyms grow their membership base with a couple proven brints and uh that's when we start could I send you our Facebook ad blueprint that our gyms are using to get 20 to 30 members month totally free of course signature and then in the PS section I put I wrote some Facebook ad copy to get you started um and then we could just just use gp4 to like create copy for their area and things like that um I like it one thing I would add is instead of saying like the 20 to 30 I would give the exact data nice say average our average gym signs up 17.3 members in the first 30 days at this price point love that I feel like I got that off the website I don't know why I said 20 to 30 but great yeah I really appreciate that yeah I mean I think G it's a fundamentally sound outbound script you know what I mean like uh do I think it would work yes awesome uh well actually that's going to be the second part of this uh master class uh Eric and I prepare some workflows that we use the one that I used to send 7,000 leads to Alex book launch and Eric actually prepare a campaign from gym launch and I think he's going to be able to show CP the result that he prepared maybe we're going to be able to send it to your team some beds coming from that but that's going to be for the second part of this master class Alex thank you very much for your time and for all this uh incredible wisdom and uh tactical advice and uh we'll see you soon to and and before we before we sign off um thank you all for putting the effort that you guys did to promote the book um I know that there wasn't like a financial incentive and so I just appreciate you helping me you know get the word out and help you know hopefully help as many people get out of financial poverty or grow their businesses or basically just realize that there is a better way to live life um and I will say that you guys are near near and dear to my heart because I uh there's there are few few jobs more thankless than the cold Outreach team you know what I mean and having you know gone from the set to the the closers and and figuring out you know warming up domains and scraping the lists and the and it's just it's just a a job of brute force and persistence um and so you guys are my kind of people and I and I appreciate you for that so thank you I love what you guys represent thank you very much and we're looking forward for money modos next next year so I cannot wait for that oh oh SN oh oh and could I make a quick can I make a quick content request uh I probably listen to you every day when I'm in the gym could you do a video on how to divide Equity uh when you're giving Equity to other co-founders I don't think you've ever made one on that yeah it's uh yeah that would definitely be a niche video that would apply to like seven people um but well I could I'll I'll give you broad brush stres right now which is yeah don't want to run over if you have to go you're good this is this my I got um but big big picture everyone has to be happy but it doesn't mean that everything's Equitable so like not everyone's the same and it doesn't mean that everything needs everyone needs to have the same percentage and the big part of this is making sure that the people who are co-founders actually have different skill sets than you do so like the biggest fake small business owners make when they're getting into Partnerships is they just find partners that they get along with and that is I mean it's important but you want to make sure that you have complimentary skills and so I'm all for multiple co-founders in a business because it does increase the likelihood that the business is successful so like why combinator for example doesn't even take solo Founders because it's just so hard to start a big business so like all for that bigger you know smaller slice bigger pie I'm I'm obviously an investor so like I have to believe in that right um but it's it's making sure that the contribution of each of these individual people are additive and not overlapping to the greatest degree possible and if you're if you're looking at what are the roles that are going to be that I would want to look for in a partnership I would probably have someone who's really good at Building Product or Services I'd have someone who's very good at leading and operating and then I would have someone who's very good at marketing and sales right so you need to have somebody who can get the customers you have somebody who can deliver on the Promises and then the other person to keep the other two out of jail and making sure that they're actually running a team and so if you're looking at the three now those don't necessarily need to be Equitable and it depends because some people are good at two of those things or one and a half of those things and so that's where like I don't have a framework for that because everyone think it's individual including the businesses and do they need Capital like all of that like it is very custom but from a framework perspective to Think Through it's I want to make sure that all three of those things are are covered and that the founders have as little overlap as possible and that they have as much alignment on where they want to take the business and how they want to get there because talking about those things there's usually where there's uh conflict down the road right it's like hey dude I'm we're making you know 200 Grand a month in profit you know and and one guy's like I've got kids and a wife and that that's why I did this I want to be able to like live my life and some guys's like dude I want to go to a billion and like you have to be clear on that upfront and then also paint the picture of what might happen in the future like actually sit in it and be like if we get to here and you have kids how you going to feel them right like really try and confront some of those harder decisions and if you can't confront hard decisions when you don't have a business it's [ __ ] way harder when you do so that would be my my mental framework for trying to work through that amazing well can't wait for the for the podcast episode to come out then very much all right appreciate you guys

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Length: 34min 49sec (2089 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 22 2023