All right. So we're going to start off with a Christian prayer. In the name of the father, the son, the holy spirit, amen. Father please come be with us tonight and to introduce into our hearts the desire to learn about one another. Help us to not only listen, but to understand what we are hearing. Thank you Father for this opportunity, for multiple communities to become one, and for us to come together for your greater good. In the name of the father, the son, the holy spirit, amen. We'll make duas per our tradition in Islam. I begin with Bismillah, in the name of Allah. The most gracious, the most merciful. Ya Allah, I ask you to send blessings upon the messenger, [inaudible] may peace and blessings be upon him, and his family, and his companions, and his followers. Ya Allah, bless this gathering today. Ya Allah guide us. Ya ol alhakim, the wise one. Purify our intentions to meet for our sake and reward us for the work that we're about to do together. We ask Allah to guide us so that our every act of service for the community is done to worship you Ya Allah, and Ya Allah ash shakur, the one who appreciates. We send your blessings upon the people who had a role in creating this space here that we share today. From those whose stories we know and those who stories we do not know. Indeed, all praises to you, Ya Allah. Allahumma amin. I want to thank you all for coming here tonight. We are very excited to see how the night turns out. My name is Jordan. I'm a senior here at Saint Thomas, and I am on the Tommy Catholic planning committee. My name is Issa Mahmoud. I am a senior here at Saint Thomas and I am the president of the Muslim Student Association. So what is Tommy Catholic? Tommy Catholic is the gateway to everything Catholic at St. Thomas. Tommy Catholic started as a collaboration of the office for spirituality, Catholic Studies and Saint Paul's outreach. Now in its fourth year, Tommy Catholic has a weekly gathering of students who want to grow deeper in their Catholic faith. The evenings are planned by students or for students by students, and events have included everything from an iteration night to a talk by Bishop Cousins, to a discussion about the Catholic churches take on aliens. So what is MSA? MSA was first founded here at St. Thomas, actually following the 9-11 attack. Dr. Karen Lang was our adviser. The purpose of this association was to foster a strong Muslim community on campus, and promote awareness of Islam among us students, faculty and staff of the University of Saint Thomas as the Muslim population continues to grow here. They host club meetings and aldirasa, which means like study circles where we get together and reflect, and for community building, and times a reflection on Islamic principles. We also host events like these specifically, to promote awareness. Events surrounding Muslim holidays such as Ramadan Iftar, which is coming out next week Wednesday 7:30 a.m. In this room. All right. So faith leads a believer to see in the other a brother or sister to be supported and loved. This is the very first sentence of the document of human fraternity for world peace and living together. This document was signed less than three months ago by Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic Church and the grand Imam of al-Azhar, Ahmed el-Tayeb. This shows that this conversation is bigger than us. This conversation is going to be bigger than this event and it's happening between the people we look up to, and admire, and it's kind of our time to become involved in the conversation. So what is the ultimate objective of tonight? Tonight's discussion is called a theological exchange. It's a tie cell level of interfaith dialogue. It's neither a debate nor is it that kumbaya type of stuff that you often see. Rather, it is actually a real conversation between two people who respect each other. Here, you'll learn to speak about differences without the feeling that you're trying to convert the other or the other is trying to convert you. Here, you will see how people can speak about their differences to show that your disagreement would not be perceived as disrespectful. Rather, it is to achieve on our campus civic pluralism, which means that the diverse communities on this campus actually engage with their diversity. Before we introduce our academics, I just want to let you guys know that there are slips of paper on your tables, in front of you for you to take any notes about anything interesting you hear about tonight, or any additional questions that you might still have, after the night's over. So first, Professor Ali Chamseddine is a practicing Catholic from Lebanon, where he first found his interest in interfaith by growing up in a religiously diverse family. He is a current theology professor here at St. Thomas, teaching courses in Theology 101 and Islam. He has his license in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas, also known as the Angelicum in Rome, and he's currently working to obtain his doctorate from the Angelicum, within the same field. With his specialization being in ecumenical and inter-religious studies, Professor AIi finds that his background affords him the opportunity to connect with and build bridges of understanding between diverse communities. Dr. Hamdy El-Sawaf received his BA in psychology from Ain Shams University in Cairo, Egypt. He got his Masters and PhD of Psychology at the University of Minnesota. Dr. El-Sawaf is a psychotherapist, an Imam, a consultant, a professor and an adjunct professor currently. He is the founder of Al-Wafaa Center for Human Services in Minneapolis, and a co-founder for many Islamic institutions. An example would be the Islamic University of Minnesota. Dr. El-Sawaf serves as the advisor board member for Center for Religious Inquiry. He is also the vice president of East Side Neighborhoods Services in Minneapolis. He's a public speaker in many Islamic conferences held locally and nationwide. He gives lectures on Islam in public, private schools, colleges, universities, mosques, churches, synagogues, hospitals and clinics. So let's welcome up our two speakers for the night. Professor Ali and Dr. Hamdy. Salaam alaikum. First, I want to start with this greeting because I would like to emphasize that this greeting is not only for Muslim. We find it also in the Bible when the angel Gabriel appeared on Mary. So she was greeted by that greetings. So it involve Muslim and Christian. Thank you for being here. I would like to, first before we begin, to talk about what I've learned about dialogue. In order to enter in dialogue, I need to listen to the other. So hopefully tonight I'll be able to listen to Dr. Hamdy in order to dialogue. Also I would like to wish for the Muslim community on campus here a blessed Ramadan, especially that Ramadan is getting close. I would like to start with this question for Dr. Hamdy, why Ramadan is very important for Muslim? In the name of a law, most gracious and most merciful, I would love to greet all of you again with the greeting of Islam Assalamualaikum and be some Christians and mercy of God with all of you, be with all of you. It's really I'm honored to be with you tonight at St. Thomas with Professor Ali with that wonderful dialogue we'll be having. This is not the first time to be in St. Thomas. I have been regular speaker at St. Thomas for almost, don't be surprised, before some of you were born. Now, it's almost 29 years or 30 years. So being with you tonight and having this wonderful greeting from Professor Ali and wishing us the blessing of the month of Ramadan, we will be observing the moon by the fourth or fifth in order to cite the birth of the moon. The lunar calendar goes by citing the moon. It would decide for us when would be the beginning of the month of Ramadan. Month of Ramadan fasting is one of the five pillars of Islam. It is ordained by us, for us by God Almighty to fast the month of Ramadan down to thus not only to feel hungry or thirsty, but to feel that pinch of hunger. Many, could be millions, of people, especially children, by the end of the day, they won't find a fresh of civil water to drink or a piece of food to eat. Once you feel that pinch of hunger, you do something for those who are in need. In the meantime, it is a wonderful and agreed self discipline. If you could be away from your biological needs like food and drink, you train yourself to be away from many other bad things around you; Drugs, bad behavior, nasty things, so that wonderful training for 30 days during the month of Ramadan, you'll be having this. The other part of celebrating the month of Ramadan, it is where in the Quran, the 114 chapters was revealed to the prophet of Islam, Muhammad [inaudible] Of course, some of you say, "That's not what we learn", or [inaudible] revealed to the prophet of Islam, Muhammad in 23 years. Thirteen years in [inaudible] almost half of the Quran was revealed to him by angel Gabriel, and the other half in median of 14 years. So it is not during the month of Ramadan. No contradiction. Can I intervene here, doctor? Please. Okay. I don't want to add to you, but as a Christian, and I was curious enough to wanting to learn about Islam, especially that whoever doesn't know of you, my father was a Muslim and my mother was a Christian. So I love the both religion. I think one of the most reception of Ramadan is most non-Muslim will believe that it was during that month that the holy Quran was descended on the prophet. Instead, what I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, it was during that month that the holy Quran [inaudible] was descended to the lower heaven, not to Earth, not to Muhammad. The prophet Muhammad, but to the lower heaven. You're absolutely right. This is exactly what happened, the whole Quran, from beyond the seventh heaven, kept by God Almighty, created for the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, to be born came down to the heaven as down, down, down, waiting for Gabriel the angel of revelation to bring it down to Muhammad within 23 years according to whatever the situation is or the need is, as he was a human being, Muhammad the prophet, he cannot have 115 chapter in a matter or a fraction of second memorize the whole Quran and to [inaudible] community. No, he is a human being. So you've got to have a [inaudible] f or your causes in order to have your degree. You have to go through how many years and how many classes on the civil service consulting support. So no contradiction between this and that. The whole thing came down, waited for Muhammad and then Gabriel take the [inaudible] of the revelation to the prophet of Islam, Muhammad. You've got the right answer. Congratulation. So what is the difference between the Quran and the Bible that the question uses about revelation? So you said that the Quran was descended to the prophet Muhammad. What is the difference between the two? In Islam, from the Islamic perspective? In Islam, as a matter of fact, when you view the six pillars of faith, that is the five pillars of Islam. Five pillars of Islam, God [inaudible] the worship, Muhammad is the messenger and the prophet. Second, the prayer, third, fasting, fourth, Hajj Pilgrimage, and fifth, it is the charitable contribution. These are the five pillars of Islam to practice. Six pillars of faith, again, believing on God, his angels, you believe in all prophets and messengers, from Adam, to Muhammad, and anyone in-between. You believe in them. If you don't believe in all of them, you really are breaking one of the code of the belief system. Also, you believe in the revelations. Whatever that revelation is, to [inaudible] Testament, New Testament, Bible [inaudible] We Muslim believe in all of them, no matter what. Somebody would say, "They are not the same." That's not the case. Somebody would have done whatever revision, this is not our version. We believe in the as long as they came from God Almighty to all the prophets and messenger. This one thing that really make some people, non Muslim can say, "You believe only on the Quran" and that's it. No. We believe in all prophets, we believe in revelation and the scriptures coming to all prophets and messengers. So you said that Adam and all the prophet. Now, we'll all start to get into the prophet, we'll look at that. So as a Muslim, how do you see Jesus as well? Good question. Is he a prophet? Is he a messenger? Is he a son of God? [inaudible] Christianity. Again and again, as a prophet and has a messenger, period. Surprisingly enough for all of you, how many times [inaudible] Jesus was repeated on the Quran? Twenty two times. Well, Muhammad, about Islam? Only four times. One of them, not Muhammad, or Ahmed [inaudible] Ahmed and Muhammad are the same. Just one thing. You keep in mind. Also, yes, as a prophet and as a messenger, not God, not a son of God, yes. Refer to him in the Quran as [inaudible] Jesus, the son of Mary, fourteen times [inaudible] memorial, three times [inaudible] nine times. So you've got all of this teachings, all of his [inaudible] birth, and I will come to this in detail. Even the miracles he himself have done, taking as such, but the belief there My phone is set up for- [inaudible]. So- -for the sunset prayer, which is the time now. But we have a wonderful debate, all of us, Professor Ali, myself, when we were all going to have a Muslim prayer? It is time now to have it. Can you imagine we just had about seven minutes discussion? And we would have a break for our Muslim prayer and then come back? No. We decided, scholarly speaking and Islamically speaking the Isha time, the night prayer would be at 9:51, and will be done in here by [inaudible] I should say. We still have enough time to pray the sunset prayer in congregation there and you will be observing us. I'll be leading. Anyone who would like to join that's fine, if not you could be seated in order to see the Muslim prayer being conducted here at St.Thomas University. We don't have to run to one of our mosques to do it. No, we're going to do it here, of course with your permission. This is one thing I just wanted to say. So back to Isa, it is, by the way, what I'm sharing with you it is not my opinion. When it comes to my view I will tell you this is my view or this is my opinion. Bu I'm referring to all of those answered from the Quran. This is the Quran and I'll be reciting some of them I'll do this is in chapter such and such, this is verse such and such. This is the way how we look at it. So my question to you, since you already asked me five questions, it's my turn to ask you a question, how you knew Isa? Well, this is the core of the christian faith. If we go to the creed. In the creed we say that, the Christian we, we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the father, God from God, Light from Light and true God from true God. Begotten not made. Here I would like to emphasize that the Christian perspective is very different from the Muslim perspective from what you said. First of all in Islam we heard that Jesus is a prophet and messenger. Meanwhile in Christianity, we believe that Jesus is not a prophet and all the time even Jesus himself in the gospel doesn't identify himself as a prophet. So the four Gospels show us how he was understood that by that way that he is a prophet and he did not identify himself that way. Rather if we read in Matthew, he says John the Baptist fulfilled that role. So Jesus doesn't identify himself as a prophet, it was the people. Instead, Jesus as a Christian, we believe he is a suffering servant. So the suffering servant is very central to the Christian faith and the suffering servant has vocationed us to suffer of course. The essential characteristic of the suffering servant is his vicarious representation. So he's suffering on behalf of and that's how we believe in that Christ is in Christianity. He will suffer in the place of many. He did that without anyone pushing him to do that. So it was a volunteer act. Also the suffering servant he re-established the covenant between God and His people and here I'd like to recall St. Ephrem. St. Ephrem, he is a serious saint and one of the patristic in the Catholic Church. For those who doesn't know what is a patristic, it means a doctor in the Catholic church. He used to say that sins entered the world with Adam and sin was removed from the world with the new Adam which is Jesus Christ who voluntarily took this upon him to suffer on behalf of many. So in Christianity we don't see Jesus as a prophet. So no reference whatsoever in the Old Testament or the New Testament saying that as you said Jesus is the son of God and God- People- But also a prophet and a messenger? He is not a prophet or messenger. He came to complete the prophecy but he didn't bring a new prophecy. I have many references in the Quran saying that he is the prophet and he is the messenger and it's very, very, very clear that in many verse of the Quran either mentioned as a prophet or as a messenger or a prophet and messenger, both of them. Yeah, but Jesus himself in the gospel he didn't say that he's a prophet. He said that John the Baptist fulfilled that. Now, Dr. Hamdy you mentioned Isa in the Quran as a prophet and messenger. Did he perform any miracles? Great question. He did as a matter of fact and I would refer you to Chapter 5 verse 110, this is only one verse but we have many other verses talking about the miracles of Isa in the Quran. [inaudible] [inaudible]. It is one verse, and in Chapter 5. But it summarized to all of you those wonderful miracles Jesus has done. Keeping in mind he was born miraculously, one. When his mother took him to her people, and of course they accused her of committing adultery. Of course, she couldn't answer. She couldn't say anything. But she pointed out to him. A new born baby and he wanted him to speak and risen miraculously he spoke-up. So he spoke in the crabble. Yes. [inaudible]. I'm the servant of God. But with the miracles itself, when he grew up. How God has helped him. Guided him to do all of these. Isaiah remember, when Allah will say on the day of resurrection, "Oh, Isa son of Mary, remember my favor to you, and to your mother when I supported you with a Ruh, Jibril. So that you spoke to the people in the candor. In maturity, and when I taught you waiting the wisdom. The power of understanding the Torah, Old Testament and the Injeel, the gospel. When you made out the clay, I figured that like that of a bird by my permission and you breath into it, and it became a bird by my permission. You heal those born blind, and the liberals by the permission, my permission. When you brought from the dead by my permission, and when we're straying the children of Israel form you when they resolve to kill you. As you come into them with clear proofs and that the believers among them said, 'This is nothing but evident magic.'" This what we're learn in Quran, about Isa and his miracles. In order to say that, yes he is the one with those miracles from God. By himself he cannot do. But by the help and permission and grace of God he can do that. This is only one verse of a Quran though you have about seven other verse of the Quran talking about some other things. Okay. Do you have any miracles from Muhammad? From Muhammad, yes. Tell us. The miracle of the Quran, I think. Yes. So now, what I want to look at the Jesus in Christianity and his miracle. Now, as we heard from Muslim talking about how Jesus was doing miracle since he was born. In Christianity, we believe that Christ has a dual nature. Jesus Christ has a divine and a human nature. It's by hypostatic union, so it's not the one that absorb the other. So also in Christianity we believe that Jesus did miracle, and in order for Jesus to do miracle, it was behind his ordinary capacity of the man. So as a human being, no one can do miracle. So it's a divine intervene, I think it's similar to what we find in Islam. Even in the case of Jesus, by his human power Jesus could not do any miracle. It was by his divine nature. Right. Because in Christianity we believe that he had both nature, human and divine. To do miracle it's only belong to the infinite divine power. So it's not the human power to do that. But what we have in his human nature is serving as instrument for the divine power. We see for example, the human nature only involved in the miracle. For example, he stretch his hand over the leper. He mold the clay for example. Right. So this is human nature being used as an instrument for the divine. That's how he was able to do miracle. Now, God the son, in his divine nature, Christ in his divine nature is the one who is curing the sick. He is the one reviving the death person, as you mentioned the Quran too. So Jesus is elevating the activity of his instrument, t he activity of human nature to beyond the range of normal activity. So technically now if I raise my hand and then someone of you is sick, he is not going to be healed. I'm not am instrument of the divine. I hope one day I will be an instrument of divine nature, but I'm not. So he was using his human nature as an instrument for his divine, and also the ultimate purpose of the miracle. I don't know. I think, what are the ultimate purpose of miracle in the Quran for Jesus? Why he was doing those miracle? Because mainly for any prophet or any messenger, when he comes to his own people, if you do normally things, organic things in front of them, some people would challenge him and saying that, "I can do the same, there is no difference." Like in the mood of the time of a Bohemian he would say, "I can do whatever, your want me make people alive or even die, I can do that." He ordered one of his guard and say, "Bring me that person. You see this person is alive? Okay, I still think that you're alive, I can make him die. Kill him. Now is dead." So this my order would commence." When the change came to him saying that, [inaudible] , and also Anatalla has for bringing up some from East. Can you bring some up from West? [inaudible]. So miracle has to be performed in front of people in order to tell them, "Yes, I'm the prophet. Yes, I'm the messenger. Yes, I'm a human being, but with your concept in Christianity, the devine aspect but in Islam, by God's power- Exactly. -permission I can do such and such." So-. This is the prophesy, and this is the wisdom behind it. So I can conclude that, the main purpose of the miracle in Islam, when a prophet in Islam or a messenger does a miracle, first it's by God decree, by God willing to do that, and secondly to give authority to his message that he is transmitting to the people. Can I assume that? Because normally the prophet is persecuted even in a Christianity. Yeah, as we all know some of the human being are really arrogant or paranoid. Always ask for the proof for such and such or can you show me such and such. That's why if you study life of prophets and messenger, each and every single one of them had miracles. Moses, for instance with Pharaoh. When all the magician around Pharaoh would do the magic and put Moses in a very bad situation and so on and so forth. God told him, "You have your cane in your hand? " He say, "Yeah." "Drop it on the floor." What would happen to it? It would eat up all of the imaginable snakes on the floor. This is now the power of the miracle of God. "Or you still have do you see same cane in your hand?" "Yes". "You're leaving Egypt, to go to Sinai Peninsula? " "Yes." "In front of you the Red sea?" "Yes." "How are you going to cross that Red sea? All Pharaoh and his solder and his army [inaudible] I'm going to kill all of you. They will never leave any one of you alive." What told him, "Moses you still have your cane in your hand?" "Yes." "Miracle?' "Yes." "Hit that sea with your cane, it would be split, and there is a [inaudible] to you. You and your followers cross to the other side." Pharaoh and his solders tried to do the same thing, following them. What happened to the sea? They were sunk. Yeah. Miracles get to be performed no matter what, in order to proof to those [inaudible] people, disbelievers. If you don't believe in God, if you do not believe prophets, given the prophets are the messengers of God, here is my in miracle, God's miracle, divine one as you said for the prophet and permission of God. So people will say, "So that's only the magician of Pharaoh when they saw it was safe to say, "Now we believe in you and we believe in God, we do not believe in Pharaoh." Of course, Pharaoh said, "How come now you obey him and disobey me? I will kill all of you." So miracles with any of the prophets, any of the messengers when you read it through Quran or the Bible, there you'll find many of them. We have to believe in them. Like it or not, they are real, it happened. [inaudible] say, "A new born baby in the cattle, and his mother is pointing to him saying, 'Isa speak up, I'm in a very very bad situation, I have been accused of committing adultery, and he would speak up." How? Miracles got to be there. So now, in Christianity, for us and Jesus, the ultimate purpose of the miracle is to arouse the faith in the person who has seen the miracle. So it's similar to the perception in Islam. Yeah. Question for you. Tell me. Is there original sin? I think it's a very important question Dr. [inaudible] because I think this is here where we find the difference between Islam and Christianity, where the whole difference lay between Islam and Christianity. First, in Christianity of course, there is original sin. Just for who doesn't know, or reminder for us too, what is original sin? The original sin, we believe that God created the human being, Adam and Eve, on his image and likeness, and I think this is cited in the Quran too, right? [inaudible]. So He created them, and He wanted to share his divinity with them. By the way the sin was not the apple. For your information, if you want to know how the Christian came to associate the apple with original sin, it's because of the Latin translation of the sin, which is similar to fruit, and later became similar to apples. So this is how it came to this understanding. Anyway, back to the original sin. God created Adam and Eve, and He want to share with them His divinity, His love. He told them, you have all the freedom, except you can eat from all this Heaven except one tree. He didn't name what this tree is, it's knowing the good or the bad or. Anyway, from my perspective as a Christian, I believe the original sin of Adam and Eve is saying, God, we don't need you. We don't want you. We can be God for ourself. I think this is where the original sin came. This was a temptation. By doing that, rejecting God in their life, they became sinner. They marked themself, and they became sinner, and this mark had consequence, on the next generation. So yes, we believe in the original sin, and we believe in the consequence of it, and therefore, we believe that we need the suffering servant, who was Jesus Christ, to repay. I'll talk later about it, why we need a suffering servant. So that's the original sin in Christianity. That's true. That's a major difference between Christianity and Islam. There is no such original sin. We are born pure, and it depends, actually, on the way we are brought up. Some people would be born to a Christian family, they become a Christian family because the teaching of their folks, their parents, their relatives. Born to a Muslim family, I become a Muslim or a Jewish. Until later, when I realize what is going on around me, and I would keep more of reading, more of understanding, more of figuring out what is going on around me, and I say, yeah, being a Muslim, the teaching of Islam makes a lot of sense. Continue, keep growing as a Muslim, or a Christian or a Jew or this doesn't make sense to me in the teaching of Islam or Christianity, or Judaism, I got to figure out what else. So that's why you're finding that some people would totally be out of the three sacred Abrahamic religion: Christianity, Islam and Judaism and say, I don't believe in any one of them. I believe in nature. I believe in myself. I believe in science. I believe in whatever. Until I find out later, or I don't find out, so I would go this way. This is the beauty of how we were created this way according to the teaching of Islam, with my free will. I choose according to what I learn. I could learn right, so I would go to the right path, or I could learn wrong, so I would go to the wrong way. Still, a human mind, and your free choice and your freedom to choose, but not to live your life predetermine for you, I do have that original sin. So that's why the difference. This is another, also, you are opening now, a little bit another topic, which I think there's also lack of misunderstanding between Islam and Christianity. The free will. Their free will, is everything determined or not? Just to give an idea about what is sin in Christianity. Let's say you cut your hand. So the sin is this cut, and you go to the doctor, and he heal you, and you're good, but you will have a mark forever. Right. So the sin is this cut that by your own choice, you made it, but it will keep a mark. The sin of Adam and Eve, the original sin, kept a mark in the humanity, even if there is a free will from a human being. That's why we believe that we need salvation. We need someone to come and save us, and this salvation was brought by Jesus Christ, who was God becoming human being. [inaudible] But in the teaching of Islam, given that I am mentally, psychologically, and emotionally able and capable of choosing my way of life. So now, I am choosing but if I'm not mentally stable, or psychologically, or emotionally, I do something. Like someone who commits suicide, because he's suicidal, because he has diagnosed with severe depression, I do not blame him or her that this is the way. But my free will, given that I am able and capable of choosing this way, not this way. But also, keep in mind what the guidance, and help, and support of God for you. This is one major thing. So the believe system got to be there, to guide me which way I should go. Should I go to the right direction, or to the wrong direction? Definitely, I will pay the consequences for that. So Dr. Hamdy, in Islam was Jesus crucified? Good question. The answer is not mine, but go back to Surah [inaudible] Isa, call of the woman chapter. It's 4:157 literally. [inaudible] Never been crucified, never been killed, but it came to their imagination someone like him who was killed and you see- So what happened? To? To Jesus? To Isa? To Isa, by the power and will of God, now we see few as our prophet and a messenger. We will never let anyone, whoever that one is or any power, any authority to kill you. We'll raise you up to the heaven alive, and you will be there till the day of judgment, but we'll send you back to earth. This is a wonderful belief in Islam. Once he is back, say, "Welcome Jesus to the planet of earth. We believe in you, we believe you along with all prophets and messengers and with Muhammad as well.". So what we can call it second coming. Are you? Are we? Yeah, of course, we are waiting for a second coming which brings me- But wait a minute, been crucified or alive? Okay, so. How is he going to come back to life? So for Christian, Jesus definitely was crucified. Even he died. Did? Yeah, he did. Okay. He was crucified. He died and also, he was risen on the third day. To earth? To heaven? He was risen and then, later after 50 days, he was ascended to heaven. Okay. Now, was Jesus crucified in Christianity? I would answer yes, and I will say why, but before I do that, one would ask was it necessary for God himself to become human in order to save humanity from original sin? If God is the omnipotent, omniscient, who can do whatever he wants, why he became a human being to save humanity? This is one of the questions I hear a lot from Muslim, honestly and to answer that, I would like to speak what Saint Thomas says, Saint Thomas Aquinas. He says that there is two kinds of necessity. The first is the absolute necessity and this necessity means that the goal is impossible to be achieved without this particular course of action, and the second kind is the relevant necessity which means that the course of action makes it easier to achieve the goal. Now, when it comes to the salvation of the human being from original sin which Christianity believed that it exists, yes, of course, it wasn't necessary for God to become a human being to save the human being. Because he has only power, but it is a relative to necessity that makes it easier to be achieved. So the incarnation was not absolute necessity and to our salvation, because God in his infinite power could have saved us in a different way. He could wish that and it will be done. It is relatively necessary because it is a suitable way for our salvation to be accomplished, and here I would like to give you and to the audience, let's say you are a judge and we know God, one of the beautiful name of God, He's the just and the merciful in Islam, and the same in Christianity. We believe He is just and merciful. So Dr. Hamdy, you are a judge now. I'm your son. I was captured stealing, and you're going to judge me. Would you be going after you're being judge and be just with me? I would resign. You see. I'm sorry. No, I'm not supposed. There's a conflict of interest in here. I'm sorry. Okay. That's the way. As a human being. Exactly. No, and the system won't allow me if you do that. Even the law of the system doesn't allow that. Yeah, the system won't allow me. So you'll resign and you know that your son, I'm going to be judged by another judge who is your friend. You want to be merciful to you because you are my father. So what would you do in that case? I can share with you one wonderful example, having with prophet and messenger Solomon. I'm sure you know the story. When two moms had a dispute about, "Whose son is this?" and that lady, "It's my son." and that lady, "No, Solomon, it's my son." He said, "Okay, fine. If you do not tell the truth, here's what I'm going to do, bring me a knife. Bring me whatever. I want to split him to two halves and I give you half and the other one will have half and would be fair and fair judgment will say. Guess what the real mom said? "No, don't do that. Give it to her." Right away he said, "You are the mom because you do care about your son.". See now, as a human being when it comes to that judgment, when it comes to this, we have to be extra careful with this, but the question I would claim that, I'm a good student of learn. I studied as much as I can, as hard as I can, being involved for more than 30 years, in inner faith and multi-faith, the [inaudible] activities. I kept asking myself this question and I would love to ask you this question, Professor Ali. Isa was crucified when he was God or son of God or just a human being? He was both at the same time. Both. Both. God? Totally 100 percent God and 100 percent human being. But how come human being would kill God? Well, now this brings me back to the story I was telling you about the judge. I'm not by the way challenging you. No. I know. Keep in mind folks, we're learning. All right? We're not trying to prove someone's wrong and the other one is right. No, we're learning. There is no right and wrong. I am studying this, I did not find an answer. So that's why it is my golden opportunity now to ask Professor Ali. I hope I'll be able to answer. Go ahead. Yes. So the judge now, I mean judge for stealing. What would the sentence be? It should be equal to the act that I did. I stole $10,000, I should pay at least $10,000 to be released, right? If I killed the person, what the sentence would be? Most of the state that. Again, for the sake of argument. Okay. Whoever he was. Why they crucified him? So there must be a balance between the wrong debt is done and the atonement or the satisfaction of this wrong or offense done, and justice is required. This brings me back to the original sin, and this is where it's hard to explain it for a Muslim why Jesus, God himself had to die because it had to be equal to the wrong that has been done, the original sin which for Muslim, he cannot grasp it because it doesn't exist in Islam. Now, there are two types of satisfaction of penance, and this is according to Saint Thomas Aquinas, of course. There is the sufficient satisfaction. Even his interpretation? Sorry? His interpretation? Yeah. Okay. Not from the original text of the Bible. No, it's from Saint Thomas. Okay. He is a patristic and he is a pillar in Christianity. So Saint Thomas would say that there was two types of satisfaction or penance and the first one is the sufficient satisfaction, and normally it is incomplete satisfaction or imperfect. It is described on the willingness of the one offended to accept that atonement as being equal even though it is not. Let's say I stole $10,000 and I was sentenced to pay you back 5,000 and if you accept that, this is the sufficient satisfaction. So it is incomplete but is accepted even though it is not equal to the offense, and if we find an example of that in the Old Testament, in the Torah where the Jewish people would go and give sacrifices for their sins. The sacrifice they were offering, the lamb, is not equal to their sin but God is accepting that. Okay. The second one is the retribution or the condign satisfaction and this satisfaction means theologically perfect satisfaction. It is perfect and it can remedy a situation by voluntarily undergoing an honorous act in view of the intertwines of another person and it is a complete remedy to the injury done, and this brings us to the suffering servant. That's why Jesus, God became a human being in order to redeem our original sin and our sins, and to give us the condign satisfaction. Okay. In one word Yeah. -and I'm not trying to put you in a corner. Tell me. Who, "crucified" Isa? Who crucified? Well, there is. I said one word. One word? Yeah. Technically speaking, it was the Romans. The Romans? Yeah. Who push for the crucifixion? It was the Jewish. Yes. That is why I am asking you how much of involvement the Jewish community? What was involved? The reason I am asking you this question is because many Jewish people are so happy with the interpretation of Quran and Islam, he wasn't crucified. So it means they're innocent. Though the question said, "No no no he was crucified." So majority of Christians are mad at Muslims because we say he wasn't crucified. But the majority of the Jews will say "We are innocent, we did not do it. Find out who did it if that claim is right or wrong." But it is a wonderful debate. You have a question for me? I don't want to ask you questions. We still have a couple of minutes. Okay. Go. Now, is Jesus considered as Masih or Messiah in Quran? In Quran, in [inaudible] of the Quran I can refer you to them. I can even share with you the statistics. How many times he mentioned just as Isa, or some other term Isa Ibn Maryam. Or Masih, or Masih Isa, or Masih Isa Ibn Maryam? Many times in the Quran. Depending actually in the way it is addressed and so on and so forth. So he is considered al-Masih, Messiah, the son of Mary, the son of the Virgin Mary, and Isa. It depends on those ones. By the way, just to mention to all of you, that the chapter in the Quran Chapter 19, remember that number? This is, the title is Maryam. Reward for Maryam and the whole story there. Yes. As a question, what do you think of prophet Muhammad? That's a really interesting question. I will give my answer because we're running out of time. I will say the first in Arabic. Sure. Is there anyone here who speaks Arabic by the way? I don't. Me neither. The question regarding the prophet Muhammad, I will say in Arabic first and Muhammad [inaudible]. I will translate it in English. Muhammad is worthy of all praise by all reasonable man. He walked on the paths of the prophets and walked in the track of lovers of God. So that's all what I have to say about prophet Muhammad. Can I add few things? What do you think of him as a prophet, a messenger who received in this Quran 114 chapters, 604 pages, letter by letter, consent by consent, word by word, verse by verse, since the day one of the revelation till today, till the day of judgment nothing has been changed. Would I consider him just as a human being or little more than a human being? Or much more as a prophet or much, much more as a messenger? This is one thing I just wanted to share with you, not what he did or what he said, we do have this biography as being authenticated and we can read his whole entire life what he did and so on and so forth, and with his companions and so on and so forth. Having 1.7 billion Muslims in the whole world, we're still much less than the number of the Christians, no doubt about it. But in the mean time, one major historical fact happened and we just celebrated this a couple of months ago, it was the seventh month of the lunar calendar, what we call it Rajab. That one, it does really commemorate a miracle for the prophet of Islam Muhammad. That miracle after 12 years of struggling and striving; killing and torturing, you name it, handed to him personally and to his companion in Mecca, God wanted to reward him but in a miracle. So it was that journey at night, called Isra and Mi'raj, journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in Palestine, in an animal called Al Buraq, Pride of Light. Maybe in a fraction of second he went into that journey. There, in order to honor him, God has resurrected all the prophets and messengers to pray behind him, including Jesus, and after that he descended along with Gabriel, the angel to the seventh heaven and beyond to meet God Almighty. There, the prayer was described as a- [inaudible]. - and then come back to Mecca. But why Mecca to Jerusalem in Palestine and then the heaven, and then coming back? In order to have that connectedness between those three points: Mecca, Jerusalem, and in Medina where he was died and buried there. Keep in mind Muslim, keep in mind Christian, keep in mind Jewish people, we're all connected at the Abrahamic faith. There is no need to emphasize the differences, but let's live together and respect each other, and connect and cooperate with a lot of things to God. While we were having our dinner I shared with my wonderful colleague. Last week when I was invited in here I said, "We are in the same boat Christians, Jewish, and Muslims either to sink together or swim together. Make the choice. We Muslims made the choice to swim together regardless of the differences there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Dr. [inaudible] and Professor [inaudible]. Let's have another round of applause for our speakers. Thank you. So I think that we can agree that we could talk about this topic for hours. Sometimes, I wish we could, but this has definitely inspired me to want to learn more about the intersectionality between these two religions, and the similarity and the differences. So thank you again for being able to show us how we can sit down with our Christian and Muslim brothers and sisters and have these kind of conversations with each other to learn from one from one rather than to debate with one another. So I wanted to give you guys some information. We have info table where you guys signed your name tag with information like fliers of our upcoming events and stuff like that. We also have an artifact table behind where our wonderful adviser, Sarah is, right there. There's some neat stuff there that symbolize what both of our traditions have. Like the Islamic rosary beads we called tasbih. Then, myself thank the academics for their wonderful display and showing us how to speak about such a vital important topic. Thank you. So as a reminder, we're going to have our sundown prayer over here at the end. First, we're going to have Dr. Ali lead us in a closing Christian prayer, and then he's going to talk about an awesome opportunity to engage more in a religious studies, and then we will have [inaudible] for announcements, and then we will end in our sundown prayer. [inaudible]. Thank you so much both of you first. Thank you for all of you, and let me ask you a fair question. Did we do a good job tonight? Thank you. We needed more and more and more. Not necessarily me, maybe we'll put out for warning but involve someone else where we want a key to them more and more. This is again and again what will bring us much closer out of our [inaudible]. Thank you guys. [inaudible] So just before we pray again don't be afraid of asking questions. Many times when you ask someone who has a different religious background it might asking yourself about stuff in your face that for many years you took it for granted. Don't be afraid if you want to grow on your face, you can grow on your face without being afraid that he will be a threat for me or I will be a threat for him, go asking, "What does that mean? What do we mean by that and how do you believe that?" And we will ask you the same. So, it's an opportunity for you to go on your own face. For our conclusion, I chose a prayer written by Saint Francis. Saint Francis went all the way from Italy to Egypt to meet the Taylor, and ask him to stop the war. So, I think here's a good example for us, how to reach to each other. So in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the name of the God Almighty. Lord make me an instrument of your peace. Where there's hatred, let me show love. Where there's injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is darkness, light. And where does sadness, joy. All divine master grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to we loved as to love, for it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardon, it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen. Thank you. My prayer, our Lord help us, guide us, support us, have us much closer to each other and keep us faithful people. Amen. Amen. [inaudible] come closer take a picture of me [inaudible] and I will promise you, we will perform the Magrib prayer, sunset prayer there in the corner. Just watch if you like to, you don't have to come and join us but for Muslims in this room, you can join me. I will be leading the prayer. Thank you. Good. Before we conclude, I just wanted to share with you about this program, for whoever is interested into religious dialogue, there is a grand that is given every year by Russell Barry. So if you want to check it, go to the website or google Russell Barry fellowship in inter-religious studies, and you can find it. Again, thank you doctor [inaudible]. Thank you. Thank you for saying [inaudible] Thank you. Hang on tight we are almost done. Good evening. My name is [inaudible]. So well, a window of opportunity, inter-religious dialogue. Let's think the microscope. Here are some inter-religious opportunities here on campus. As we see here, we encourage you to keep going with community building, bridges among religious communities. We have your, Jay Phillips Center for Interfaith Learning. Dr Hans who stops me is your make contact if you have any questions. They often have rich events concerning about religious dialogue. I encourage you, type UST, Jay Phillips center if you have any questions and sign yourself up on the e-mail list if you're interested. If you want to continue this type of environment of inter-religious dialogue, the office of spirituality host a six part series called P-Series. P-Series happens on [inaudible] and involves a luncheon among a group of students with different religious backgrounds we together, can have civil conversations about our cultural and religious lives. I'm currently in it this semester, and it's fun. This semester we have a variety of representation: Roman Catholics, Muslims [inaudible] who are interested in exploring other faith systems and many more. For more information, type UST Peace News, or you can contact Sarah Chamsedine. Now time for announcements. Just a few things to say, at least I'm not saying everything tonight for the sake of time. There have been many speculations about when the chapel will close. This is the last week, and we're going to hold mass in the chapel, so just be aware of that. For everybody, this Thursday [inaudible] will be the ground breaking for construction of the Iversen Center for faith and chapel innovation in the north entrance of the chapel at 12. That is all I have. Thank you.
