♪ >>DAVID CRAIG: Welcome to choose
your Canada. I was a part of an awesome conversation with Leon
Fontaine. Jeff Thiessen and David Leis from the Frontier
Center for Public Policy, a conservative think tank here in
Canada. We just had an awesome time talking for hours about the
direction that Canada is going, how our faith plays a role in
politics. Um, what, what, what crossroads are we at? Are, are
we, what path are we going down in our country? Talk about our
economy and the effects that COVID has had on it. Where
should we be going as a nation? What does Canada stand for? All
of these things I know are important to me, they're
important to you as a viewer, you are going to love watching
the show. You know, there's so many ways that, that you can
connect with us and find the friend, let them know you put on
social media. If you want to watch this again, after the
program go to Corco+ our VOD. That's where you can find this
program. This program just see no is four parts. This is part
one that we're bringing to you right now. Well, I'm going to
throw it to our conversation. I know you don't want to miss it,
enjoy the conversation. >>LEON: So as we talk through
some stuff and we get going on it, what is there, what are some
of the things, for example, that you would love to talk about
that right now? Like, cause that's very interesting to us
too. Like if we get new, like I think David sent you a few
things are very general, but what would you love to dive
into that you think is in crucial for Canada? >>DAVID LEIS: Okay, well,
there's a whole series of levels here. There's a bunch of tactics
that are going on in the campaign. There's also very
important timing. That is, you know, this is not the first or
the last election, but there's very important timing relative
to where we're at in terms of week one versus week two in the
campaign, and how that sets the course for victory or defeat. It
also is a very interesting playbook in terms of the kinds
of issues that people were playing forward, like wedge
issues and things like that that people need to be informed of
and think what's really going on here. And then I think it's also
kind of the analogy that elections are like icebergs.
There's the surface, what we see. And then what does that
reflect in terms of our culture and our values, and what's
really going in our society today. It's a fascinating time.
And I would say that all elections are important, but
this one is probably one of the most important in a generation. >>LEON: Why? >>DAVID LEIS: Because there's so
much at stake, in terms of both the size of government and how
that's going to affect your life. Basic things like your
freedom of religion. I would argue in terms of your freedom
of speech and in terms of how so many groups have positioned this
for their advantage. And, um, you know, you can dive into
every policy area. And I believe that this country is facing
major choices and it's a shame that the election period is, was
chosen to be the shortest period possible during the end of the
summer during a COVID-19 crisis. >>DAVID CRAIG: Everyone knew it
was coming for a while, too. >>DAVID LEIS: Everyone's been
saying, yeah, that's right. And so everybody's been saying that,
um, COVID-19 is a pandemic, which it is of sorts. And we're
trying to figure that out. Well, if, if a country is going
through that difficult time, then why would this be a good
time to call an election? And in all due respect to the prime
minister and the government, they have to make that case
why this is an election to have here. Now. >>JEFF: A lot of other political
parties did not want to have this election at this time. >>DAVID LEIS: Right. >>JEFF: So it really was only
the liberals. And then you're asking, why is it? >>LEON: It was obviously
like, it's good, good for them somehow. >>DAVID LEIS: Right, right. I
don't know if you know this, but the electoral, um, officer of
Canada recommended that if an election is going to be had, it
should go during the maximum window or period for an
election. Instead they went with the shortest window, which is 36
days, 36 days during all the circumstances. And, and the
issues that we struggle with is not a long time by the people.
By the time people wake up, it's going to be, um, Labor Day
weekend, and then we'll be in the home stretch of the
campaign, it's almost over. So that's why the first week of the
campaign, um, has wrapped up. And it's been a very interesting
one because you can argue that statistically, this is a dead
heat. And, uh, that wasn't the case just a month ago where
people thought it was going to be a cakewalk. >>LEON: Yeah. That's very true.
You, you, made, you made a comment about what's at stake is
bigger government. Can you unpack that a little bit for us? >>DAVID LEIS: Right. Well, you
know, um, there's always a healthy debate in society about
the path that we're going to take. Are we going to take more
of, um, dare we say a balanced approach where there's
government, but there's also the freedom of the market, the
freedom for people to set up a business and, and go to, um, uh,
set up an organization. And that's often one of the
strengths of Canada is that we've had that balance, that mix
of both private and public. Well now we're entering another era,
especially post COVID-19, where we have spent more money as a
percentage of our GDP than in World War II. This is
extraordinary. Like it's hard to believe the amount of not just
deficits, but how those deficits accumulate to create record
levels of debt. So, um, all of those chickens will come home to
roost someday where we have to pay those things off. Just like
in some measure, like your household budget, um, there are
no free rides. And so these have been, um, in my view, like
seminal decisions that, you know, the next generation or
two are going to still be paying off. I almost feel
guilty about it. Just walking down the street. >>LEON: I was, when I talk to
university students or that age bracket, just out of university,
they all think this was wonderful. Most of them, they
just think, well, the government's come look after us.
They got to correct all these bad capitalists. They've got to,
you know, you can either go, where do they get this? Like
this, this socialism, it just seems to be everywhere. >>DAVID LEIS: And, and it's kind
of confusing because on one hand you have people that have kind
of a self-interest as an individual to get that, that
cheque, you know, like the CERB benefit. And I think that's one
of the reasons why the election was called now is because
inevitably those benefits will come to an end at mid to late
fall. So this current government obviously doesn't want to call
the election then as people no longer get that money. So
there's all kinds of things being handed out in
terms of money. >>LEON: Let me ask you a
question, then so, we're going to be in having a great old time
back and forth here. But so then if you're talking to a guy who's
collecting a cheque, is there any downside to him personally
in the months or years ahead in taking that cheque and this was
great. I'm going to vote again. You know what I mean? >>DAVID LEIS: Oh, it's a great
question. You know, in the short term, we'd all like the cheque,
but in the mean, in the interim or the longer term, we all know
that sooner or later people need to get back to work. That's what
we're called to do when somebody is just getting a cheque, that
can be very destructive, not just for society, because it
creates a financial obligation, but I'd argue surely that
creates a destructive pattern for people's inner lives. Like
all of us have gifts. We all need to work. Don't we? >>LEON: So true. >>DAVID CRAIG: That's an
interesting point because I find talking with, again, a lot of
younger people is that they almost don't have this
understanding or this forethought as to what does all
of this money we're getting, first of all, where does it come
from? It's almost not a thought. Secondly, what does it mean for
me down the road? And I almost think that there's a lot of
people that aren't thinking down the road, they're concerned, how
am I paying my next bill? I'm concerned with the here and now
the cheque is good for right now. So it helps me with my
immediate need with no plan for the future, which is you're
never going to end up getting ahead in that situation. So
there almost seems to be like a communication breakdown as to
with all these, seemingly great things happening in terms of
CERB, helping people. And we're trying to lift up people, but
it's actually a destructive path in the long run. If you look at
other countries have gone down this path with massive
inflation, I know Canada is now above our 2% benchmark of
inflation. I think we're at upper threes or something. Um,
but there's just a path. That's a dangerous path as leading
towards. I think there's a lot of people. Don't not that they
can't, they can definitely understand it. Just, I don't
think it's been communicated what it looks like. So there's
that disconnect of, I'll take this now and I'll play my
chances. Like you're saying. >>LEON: That is interesting when
he says that, that if you're not into some area developing a
gift, learning management skills, I don't care if it's
even a McDonald's, you're developing your gift. You're
getting into the workforce. You're, you're growing, you're
going somewhere. But right now you're going nowhere. Is that
what you're saying? >>DAVID LEIS: That's right. In,
in many ways I, um, I think our society is being stunted. We're
we're being held back. Your people's lives are being put on
hold. Like think of it. You know, we shut down in many
jurisdictions in the country, our schools, and I think of the
kids, you know? And, and if you, if you look at their lives, how
so many of them have struggled learning at home, some have
thrived but many of them, it's not just about learning
mathematics and english and all the rest. It's also about social
skills. It's about playing on a team and play. So I think that's
done a lot of harm to people. And I think this election is a
big deal because we're not only saying what's your future going
forward, but how did this government do when you really
stop and evaluate how they managed COVID-19
what's the answer? >>LEON: So one of the things I'm
hearing you say is that if you're going to make a decision
for your future, everyone tends to look at what I'm going
through right now. But if I look ahead, are we moving towards
more government, bigger government? Would you call that
socialism? Or I don't know, or are we moving towards free
enterprise and compassionate capitalism? And. >>DAVID LEIS: Yeah, the, these
are choices about fundamental values. And so do not be naive.
Look at what those parties are promising and do they, are they
responsible visions for the long-term future? For the sake
of the kids, let's vote in a way that's discerning. And not just
about the short term. >>LEON: You were saying earlier,
I could talk to you all day. You were saying earlier that if
they're collecting a paycheque and we're so glad that people
can do that when there is when they are in need, but if you do
it too long, um, and you look down the road now as a nation,
could you say that we're going to be hard pressed because the
money that came out that maybe wasn't needed is still coming
away from taxpayers that would have been able to go into this
incredible free enterprise system and build companies and
businesses and jobs. And so everybody's hurting their own
ability to have careers that work cause the entire nation
would, you know, it depends on which kind of economics
you're going to aspire to is going to be hurt. >>DAVID LEIS: Right. Yeah. The,
this whole thing is really in some measure, delusional isn't
it? We're going to put as much money out there. And somehow
we think that it will all just go away. >>LEON: It's exactly what. >>DAVID LEIS: The chickens
always come home to roost. We have a situation now where we've
got to get people back to work. One of the biggest issues you
hear right across the country is what? They can't hire enough
people to work. >>LEON: Everyone I've talked to. >>DAVID LEIS: There's all kinds
of job vacancies. People are looking for people and their
biggest challenge. I just heard that from a restaurant this
morning, I can't find employees. That's, that's, that's a shame.
That's ridiculous. >>JEFF: Talking to a major
businessmen just yesterday. And he says, I have all the work. I
have deadlines I have to meet. I don't have workers to get my
jobs and they pay they're paying good money, really good money.
And they still can't attract enough people. >>DAVID LEIS: You know what, and
people don't realize that our standard of living, our quality
of life, is ultimately based on one thing. And I know it's, it's
a, it's a word that is a terrible economics term, but
it's productivity. So productivity is the measure
ultimately of how much you produce as a society. And that
can be all kinds of creative things from art to, uh, theater,
to, uh, widgets, to cars. It doesn't matter. The Jets, you
know, all of that is wrapped together. And ultimately that,
that forms what is going to be your standard of living. So if
people are just not working and they're watching TV or they're,
um, playing games, so to speak, um, what does that do? It
undermines your productivity. And then as, as a country, we
lose really what we've worked generations to create. >>LEON: Yeah. Now I was
listening to a doctor the other day and brilliant person. And he
was basically saying one of the top reasons in his mind for
depression, which seems to plague the first world more than
the third world. He said, is this feeling of not being
productive. It's exactly what you just said. So it's not a
great mental health exercise going down right now. >>JEFF: Yes. And not only are we
losing that productivity from people, but we're also, they're
losing out the opportunity to enhance themselves and not feel
that depression. >>DAVID LEIS: That's right. And
this is a profound ripple effect. I, you know, as you look
at, um, uh, so many countries around the world, one of the
major issues and challenges we face is even demographics. Um,
the normal, um, uh, birth rate, uh, for replacement is of
course, 2.1 for every couple, you need to have at least two
kids to carry on your society. So I'm not here to suggest how
many kids people need to have. But we do know that the longer
it takes for people to grow up from childhood to youth and to
adulthood, is the time or window that people create, what?
Families, they get careers, they establish a way of life. So if
you, if you give them all kinds of money and you keep deferring
things or they have, they have to be in education forever, that
all gets pushed back. And I think that really harms a
generation. So, you know, hindsight is 2020 regarding
crisis like this, I believe there was a pandemic, but
how it was managed was, was pretty disastrous. >>Leon: So you just said that in
a nation, the time between a person growing up and having
babies, the more it's lengthened, the more
it hurts us. >>DAVID LEIS: It sure does. >>LEON: Wow. >>JEFF: I never heard
that before. >>LEON: No, I've not heard it
put that way. That's very interesting. So the way God has
designed everything is that, you know, yeah, there's an
attraction. Get married, have children and live your lives, be
happy because there's this way of creating strong economies,
families, homes, nations, it's all tied even to that. >>DAVID LEIS: We can't be kids
for the rest of our lives. We need to grow up. And I think,
um, you know, as, as high functioning, we'd like to think
we're high functioning adults. Eventually we say, you know what
that's part of our vision for society is we think that's a
good thing to encourage strong families and for them to be able
to succeed and go forward and, and, and build our society. >>DAVID CRAIG: We're also
created to create like, there's this inner drive for us, that we
get our fulfillment and our ability to even dream bigger. I
think when you're actually got your hands working and you're in
that creative mode, it's so easy for us to fall into apathy. And
when you do, it's even harder to get out of it. Cause it's like
this never ending cycle that you're in. And just wanted to
add to that because I feel like as a nation, that's what we've
kind of created as a whole generation or potentially, I
should say the generation that has falling onto the side that I
would call apathy as opposed to driving forward and building and
creating as a nation, every generation to emerge. >>DAVID LEIS: Yeah. >>LEON: Because, okay. So to go
back to the original question, I said, so then one of the issues
that we're concerned about is bigger government and that was
kind of, we would go in, but do you want to kind of close that
one down before going to the second one? What bigger
government, meaning that they're going to control, have
governments ever done well at controlling economies? >>DAVID LEIS: Um, by and large,
no. Um, in fact, the story of the 20th, 21st century now is
that governments have an incredible inability to do many
baseline things well. Um, it's not to say that we shouldn't
have government. Of course. >>LEON: Of course we need. >>DAVID LEIS: To meet as a
partner, but we need good government. But part of it has
also been the phenomenon of ongoing deficits. And of course,
today we hear a lot of fancy terms thrown around like modern
monetary theory, where somehow we can have an endless ring of
deficits and debts don't really matter. You know, we're not
going to go through an economics lessons today, but I mean, come
on, surely you can't borrow money forever. At some point,
Canada, like in 1994, as we recall, we were kind of hitting
that debt wall and it's not complicated. You go to markets
and you borrow money from the big banks on the, on the
international scene. And sooner or later, they start looking at
your balance sheet, your economy. And they say, you know
what? We're willing to willing to lend you some more money, but
we're going to charge a higher rate. And ultimately that's the
domino effect. That's why interest rates go up. And when
interest rates go up, there's a lot of Canadians that are at
record level debt levels. And when those interest rates hit
them, they won't be able to carry them. They may lose or
lose their house. So you have to link. You have to look long-term
and we're not doing that. >>LEON: Are you saying then if I
was to simplify that thought that every person in Canada is
going to help pay back this debt, period? There is no free
get out of jail free card here. We will have to pay it back. >>DAVID LEIS: Absolutely. And,
and, um, what happens in a government budget is that if you
don't pay off those debts and the interest rates continue to
go up, then that squeezes out all the other expenditures for
things like, oh, what are they called? Oh, education,
hospitals, uh, your road system, all kinds of things. So you have
to have that balanced approach where yes, you can on occasions,
borrow money, but you've got to do it in a responsible way.
We've gone way overboard. Again, we've spent more money
than World War II. Like how do you do that? >>LEON: What happens if we don't
pay it back? Like what happens if we can't pay it back? Is
there any record that we can look at? >>DAVID LEIS: Well, that's the
theory in some ways, and I know I'm simplifying it. So, um, but
the bottom line is that if the debt isn't being added to, what
will happen over time as if the economy grows, the ratio between
the size of the economy and the debt will go lower and lower,
and that's a good thing. But ultimately in some measure, you
do have to pay back that debt. >>JEFF: I'm a product of the
late seventies. Like that's one of my formative economic
knowledge was being built. And my goodness interest rates were
way high. I remember getting a mortgage for 13%. >>DAVID CRAIG: Wow. >>JEFF: And being so happy that
I got 13%. Like you guys may not think that, you know, but I
remember it really well. >>DAVID CRAIG: I'm really
happy with my 1.4. >>JEFF: Yeah. You're happy with
1.4. 13%. >>DAVID LEIS: And Jeff, was that
easy to pay 13%? >>JEFF: Everything we did was
focused on paying down debt. Every single decision we
made as a home, was pay that as fast as we can. >>DAVID LEIS: So lots of
great vacations, or just paying down debt? >>JEFF: It was just paying down
debt. And like, we paid off our, our first house probably within,
I'd say five to eight years because every dollar went
towards paying down debt. So debt free. But because it was at
12, 13% interest. And so that was, you didn't get to have the
good times. It was hard times. >>LEON: What is, how can we help
people who may be like, if you're at 13% and it
went up to 19%, >>JEFF: Which it had
been at 19%. >>LEON: Right. >>JEFF: It had been. >>LEON: What's the difference is
it's a lot of money. >>DAVID CRAIG: Your buying
power, right? What it comes down to with that kind of inflation. >>LEON: Your payments
go sky high. >>DAVID LEIS: Yup. Yup. Yeah. So
it's not just higher interest rates. It's higher inflation and
that's, that's the term stagflation. So in the seventies
you had the worst of all worlds. You had high unemployment, high
inflation, and a low growth economy. And that's, that's
where we're headed. >>JEFF: That's what
we're focused on. >>DAVID CRAIG: It's kind of a,
it's funny how some governments who are printing a ton of money,
but at the same time promising to build better healthcare,
better education systems. So it's kind of the saying one
thing, but on the other hand, printing money, they're pushing
us down a path that ultimately is going to hurt what
they're saying they're going to
build. It's a. >>DAVID LEIS: So how many people
believe that how many people believe those promises? Right? >>JEFF: So I'd say a lot of. >>LEON: A lot of people now.
Wouldn't that be Keynesian economics? >>DAVID LEIS: Well, um, yeah,
John Maynard Keynes and Keynesian economics was the idea
that, you know, you could have, um, you know, deficits during
bad economic times to kind of smooth out the rough spots, but
even Keynes sensed some basic things. It's almost like the
quote Keynesian study need to re read their John Maynard Keynes,
even King said there limits to taxation as well. So that was
usually 24% as I recall. So what we have now is a situation where
most Canadians remit half their income to government, whether
it's not just the income tax, it's at the pump, it's at the
liquor store, it's all kinds of places. So we have to take a
hard look at it and say, you know what, if we, if we took a
clean sheet of paper, how would we design our society in a way
that would enable people to have an incentive to work, an
incentive to save, you know? You could look at that and that's
what we should be moving towards. Instead, we've we we're
going off script. We're, we're just totally losing in terms of
spending, all kinds of things. And we're also now introducing
legislation on a number of fronts that will really
ultimately, uh, restrict your freedom of speech. And, uh,
that's part of our Western tradition. It's been a value.
That's been very important. We say, look, we may not agree with
what you say, but we do want to have a vigorous debate about,
say the pros and cons. We may even say things that are just
totally ludicrous. Um, but we, that freedom is very important. >>LEON: Is very important. I
mean, just, just doing this right now, like, I mean, you
flew in here and we had an opportunity to get together and
just talk. And, uh, I love this. I love kicking. I love
disagreeing. I like it when someone disagrees with me. >>DAVID LEIS: I thought we
were supposed to agree with everybody. >>LEON: You know, that all my
staff, when we have meetings with whatever organization,
we're in a few of them, we just say, well, we get into a room. I
have no problem with you disagreeing. Now you being
disagreeable's another quit is another question, but to
disagree brings great conversation. >>DAVID LEIS: And Leon, that's a
sign of, of leadership strength. And in our country today, strong
leadership would be facilitating a national debate about what
kind of country we want to become. And that's the
importance of an election, but instead we've shortened it down
to 36 days and we're trying to throw out red herrings, like
so-called wedge issues like, oh, you're all about to abortion.
Or, you know, you're against abortion or your, um, and those
are important issues that we should be discussing, but
because they're perceived to be so sensitive about basic human
life, we don't even talk, talk about them. It's kind kinda
nuts, isn't it? >>LEON: It really is. >>DAVID LEIS: Um, another issue
would be the whole issue of how do we work with our Aboriginal
neighbors, our fellow Canadians? Are we going to enable them to
succeed? Or are we creating kind of a status quo, like an, like
an industry of sorts that just says, no, we're, we're just
going to throw more money at this issue. No, we need to have
a hard conversation that is respectful about how do we
really enable everybody to succeed. And not just a few. >>LEON: That, you know what,
that conversation would be a good one for future for us, to
sit down. Um, cause I don't think any of us even know the
facts, that's the part that cripples us, is it, you know, >>DAVID LEIS: It's, it's an
amazing story. I know, years ago I was flown into a First Nation
reserve and it was really in a beautiful setting. And, uh, it
was really quite moving. I, I really got along with the chief
and the elders quite well, the council and, and it was very
moving. They asked me to be their, their manager of their
First Nation. And I, I couldn't do it under my circumstances, my
family, but I'll never forget in that discussion with that chief,
he said, I asked him, what are your key challenges? And he
said, well, one of them would be the incredible drug addiction
that I see every day on my reserve. And it comes in through
people that fly in to my community. Remember it's a
fly-in community. Someone's bringing that product in there.
And then the other key challenge you said is, you know, our, our
housing is in such dilapidated form. And I'd like to have
people enabled to own their own home. They're all renting or
they're all gifted it through the First Nation. And the chief
had a vision. It was really quite inspiring to say, I'd love
to change the Indian Act so that people could actually own their
own home. Can you imagine that? What kind of incentive that
would create? We're, our vision for a country almost seems to be
that we're pushing people to be a nation of renters.
Why would we do that? >>LEON: That's crazy. >>DAVID LEIS: How does
that help anybody? >>LEON: It doesn't. We want to,
people need to own property. People need to have ways of
getting ahead. They can put a stake in the ground. >>DAVID LEIS: Yeah, exactly. And
so that's one of the big issues now in this election. I don't
know if you notice, when you look at all the series of
polling information out there, is one of the issues is housing
affordability, and there's very real reasons why our housing
stock is becoming less affordable. And the real
punchline, ironically, is it's not about the housing price,
it's the price of the land. We have to, again, run a balance.
Yes. As municipalities put more and more strictures and red tape
around developing land. And of course we don't want to have,
you know, just go out willy nilly and develop all kinds of
land, but we've gone to the other extreme where we've, we've
fenced in so much of the land boundary, that the price of land
has skyrocketed. In Vancouver now, it's the range of 10 to 11
times your mean income as a family. So what hope does the
next generation have to purchase a home? And that's frankly
outrageous. And that's because of bad government policy,
that's hurting people. >>DAVID CRAIG: Question, is with
that kind of policy and maybe two questions. How far back does
that policy stem, and how much time does it take to actually
rectify do you guys think? To be able to turn something
like that around? >>DAVID LEIS: It has a long
history. If you look at different jurisdictions, if we
look at British Columbia, as an example, they brought in the,
uh, what's called the agricultural land reserve. I
believe it was in 1975 and it was all done with good
intentions, but their layer problem, it became
institutionalized. It was never updated. Now, if we look at
urban planning policy, that's a little bit more complicated,
that genesis came out of England and that really came out of
education. So urban planners and I've lectured in a number of
these urban planning schools. They tend to look at the world
through kind of a command control model and they don't
take into account the market of supply and demand for land and
how that relates to housing prices. So that's a key thing
that begs the question. Maybe their education curriculum needs
to be updated. >>JEFF: Well, the lower mainland
also has another problem is various different coverage.
Governments locked down transportation systems. So
you're also not just the Agricultural Act is the bad one,
but also your ability to get people from A to B is really
stymied. Like if you live outside of downtown, you're
stuck in traffic. >>DAVID LEIS: You know, and, and
it's interesting you mentioned that Jeff, because one of the
biggest variables in terms of social mobility, the ability to
climb the ladder, to work hard, to save money, to go forward in
your career is what? Having an automobile, having
transportation, getting to and fro. And so there's a myriad of
solutions. Part of it is transit, but there's only so
many people that can drive transit, right? You need a
vehicle. And so if you don't have that vehicle or it takes
you two hours to commute one way, what kind of quality of
life do you have? Where do those people then volunteer? Let alone
have time with their family to contribute to their family life.
This is a massive problem. And our politicians are asleep at
the wheel when it comes to dealing with these
policy issues. >>DAVID CRAIG: Well, that
concludes part one of our conversation about choosing your
Canada. I hope you feel inspired. I hope you feel
inspired to learn more about what each party's standing for,
what direction should we go as a nation? Hope it inspires you to
vote. You need to vote and use your voice, be bold with what
you think don't back down from that as well. You can find part
two coming up tomorrow, um, or on VOD of our VOD platform.
Corco+ be looking for, hit us up on social media, if you want to
know more as well, about what we're producing, we love
bringing content to you like this. We'll
see you next time. ♪
