Chad Daybell Trial: Day 12

we'll remain standing and we can have the jurors brought in all right please here's president thank you please be seated all right good morning everyone we're on the record on KC 22211 1623 state of Idaho versus Chad gy debel we're continuing with evidence today the state uh with its case in Chief I'll note the jurors are all present properly seated and all have signed their juror affirmation so the court again extends its appreciation for following the Court's instruction each day we will continue with evidence this morning apologies for getting started a little bit late we took up an Evidence anary matter outside the presence of the jury and made a ruling on that so uh the court will note the defendant is here present with Council the state's here present also the prosecutors and at this time we concluded with a witness yesterday at the end of the day so I believe the state intends to call another witness this morning who will be uh examining the witness I will be your honor and based upon your ruling just a moment ago we changed our WT order he's coming up and he might just be a minute getting to the courtroom okay we'll go ahead and uh wait for the witness to appear who will the witness be that's going to be undirect yeah the state will call Steve Schultz okay thank you Mr Wixom Solly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth that help you back thank you all right I'm going to just inquire of the witness Mr ads now that you've been placed under oath um there is a order in this case prohibiting Witnesses from viewing trial testimony before they testify I'll note that the trial is being live streamed and also open for public attendance uh Mr Schultz have you observed or viewed any of the trial testimony in the case I have not viewed anything okay and have you discussed with anyone else the testimony they've given in the case no okay thank you for that affirmation Mr Wixom you can uh begin your direct thank you your honor excuse me good morning Mr Schultz good morning could you please State and spell your full name for the record it's uh stepen R Schultz stepen s ven r s c UL LTZ thank you and where do you live Springville Utah and are you currently retired yes I am when did you retire I retired in 200 22 correct yeah and prior to retiring what is it that you did for a living I worked for 25 years with the state of Utah in the child support enforcement Division and uh and for the last well from 2010 through 2010 to 200 1222 uh I worked for uh two separate mortuaries in Springville and what did you do for the mortuaries I was a funeral director also an embalmer and uh did you do that for the entire yes approximately 12 years yes and I want to ask do you know Chad DeBell I do how do you know him Chad and I were were Neighbors from when we moved when we moved into the ward or into the neighborhood we uh that was in 200 um six I purchased my parents home who passed away and Chad lived two doors down and down from me and when you said neighborhood is that in Springville yes in Springville so approximately how many years did you live as neighbors with Mr dbel until they left for Idaho I believe it was 2015 at the end of the school year approximately 9 years yeah and what about the rest of his family did you know his wife Tammy I did yes and what about his children yes how well would you say that you you knew the family very well we were we were we were neighbors we attended the same church together we um had many conversations and um work together uh both in in the in funeral industry as well as uh just basic good neighbors would you consider yourself um friends yes you just mentioned that you work together in the industry what what work did Chad do that you referring to Chad worked for um the I believe both Springville and Spanish Fork cemeteries he was the seon and and could you just briefly explain what what did he do as a sexton what was his role as a seon he would take care of the cemetery he would uh basically um assist us in the funerals when we AR arrive for a graveside service he would open and close the graves um yeah it's there was a lot of lot of free time that we had to talk and a lot of uh share stories and stuff while the funeral burial was going on thank you and I want to draw your attention back to October 19th of 2019 did you learn of the passing of Tammy day Bell I did how did you learn that the uh the first I know the first I'd heard is that uh Jason William a neighbor contacted me and said that Tammy had passed away and uh that's that's the first I'd heard of it that was on a Saturday did you later hear from Chad day Bell that I did yes a few hours later he called me and wanted to know if I would be willing to to uh take uh bring Tammy back home to Springville and uh take care of the services down here and I'd said I'd be honored to why did you feel that way because this is a good family this the de Bells were a solid rock in our community they uh in in our exact neighborhood there were five members of the same family in in that vicinity and U I thought highly of all of them um you mentioned the name Jason a moment ago yes were you aware was was Chad acquainted with Jason I would hope so he was his brother-in-law and why did you contact Jason to come with you um a lot of times people would like to assist in the in the funeral services other than uh just being a silent part participant uh when there's an opportunity I like to get the family members involved and plus it was a long drive from uh Springfield to Rexburg and back in the same day and I would really appreciate somebody who could also help me drive and do that for that whole thing so I asked Jason he says he he would love to do that so did you in fact uh go to Rexburg yes we did what day did you do that we did that the following the following day Sunday morning is when we left about what time did you arrive in Rexford it was oh I want to say nine or 10 somewhere on that because we had to six it's a four four and a half five hour drive and uh yeah so we we arrived about that time where did you first go when you came to Idaho we went directly to the house whose house to J excuse me to Chad's house Chad and Tammy's house and when you arrived there who who was at the home there was uh obviously the coach Chad and his oldest son G and uh his Chad's parents did you talk to Chad I did yeah can you explain to the jury what that conversation was please basically uh it I I went up to approached him gave him a hug and said I am so sorry for for your loss um this was a devastating blow to him I'm sure and as it was for me to know that uh someone as young as Tammy was had passed away did you have a conversation with him about how Tammy had passed I did what was that conversation I just asked him I says what had happened and he said that uh she had been experiencing some difficulty with breathing and and uh and she went went to bed that night and then when he woke up at some time during the evening or the morning I'm not sure when because I wasn't there that she had passed uh she' passed away he I believe he found her on the floor and then he called G in to help help lift his mom back into the bed and and that's what he told me did he say anything to you about conversations that he had had with the coroner he did I I asked him who the who the U attending physician was and he said well we have the count of coroner come and the County coroner had already been there and left before we we arrived and um he's um he said the county corers um said that uh it appears that she may have died from an embolism um and then um yeah she just uh like she left after that um I did ask Chad if if they were going to do an autopsy which um is usually a case when there's when there's not a an attending physician there but the in this case the county um coroner was uh was that there was the person cap in charge at that point and made the decisions as to that they should go ahead and be bombed did Chad express to you whether or not he wanted an autopsy he he did not want an autopsy did he say that in so many words or how did he Express that that's pretty much it yeah he says I asked him says are they going to do an autopsy to find out because you know it might be for for your for heredity sake children might want to know why how their mother passed away and so they could you know watch for symptoms signs stuff like that but uh yeah the so basically the words were not I do not want her to have an autopsy what other things do you recall discussing with Chad that morning I always come prepared when uh when I'm discing going a long distance like that well I'll bring the uh the booklets that I need I'll bring a a a casket book so they can pick out caskets I would I try to do all that in the home so they don't have to make a secondary trip into uh into the mortuary to make those arrangements so most of the arrangements were done um by the time we left the the place as far as choosing a casket choosing a vault choosing a place where they're going to be buried um putting together their program uh was still left open because this is all things happen very quickly when you say very quickly what do you mean by that uh quickly meaning that uh he he wanted to have this the funeral service as soon as possible and uh this was on a Sunday morning and uh I said well we with social media we need to have W get around people will know so you'll have somebody showing up at the funeral and uh even announcing in the newspaper there's deadlines to meet and um so he he said he wanted to to to get this done just as quickly as he could his words not mine what was his proposed funeral schedule um the the uh he wanted to do it as quickly as he could I think there was some discussion of even possibly doing it Monday but uh that was very quick we talked about it and he said we'll do the viewing on Monday and we we came to a a reasonable conclusion that the the funeral on Tuesday would probably suffice in your experience as a funeral director would you say that scheduling was in the Norm no uh usually there's a three 4 day time frame time period um between the death and the and the funeral sometimes up to a week there have been funerals that have we've not held for for weeks um and why why do you typically at least have three or four days what's the reason for that the the preparation to get things ready for the funeral like I said for to ascertain information for the death certificates to get uh programs together and and uh gathered um letting people know setting up the church setting uh putting the Relief Society in motion so that they can have the the lunch and prepared uh it can be done in a in a few in a few couple of days but for the most part just to give them the opportunity did you notice anything about Chad's demeanor and tone when you were interacting with him planning the funeral arrangements when when I was there uh of course when I when I gave him the hug he was teary and he just lost his wife but uh it just seemed like uh there was an an a business-like atmosphere about it which could be either a person's way of De dealing with grief or it could be I want to get this thing done and over with um in fact I believe the direct words to me were I don't want to drag this out I don't want to drag this the this whole process out I says okay we'll work hard and try to get it done by by Tuesday did he happen to articulate any reasons why he didn't want to drag it out uh no I just wanted it I think it was just for because that that's sometimes is a long time to to wait to bury somebody maybe three days five days one week 10 days whatever before the service he didn't want to have a the hoopla of that going on so when you finished talking to to Chad making these Arrangements what did you do next uh at that point when we were all finished with the arrangements uh we we moved over then to contact the mortician who actually picked Tammy up and did the embalming was flam Funeral Home in Rexburg uh I made a phone call to Mr flam indicating that we were finished at Chad's house and that we would like to pick Tammy up and bring her back to Springville and so he left his church meeting that he was in an attendance to there and we met him at the mortuary his Mortuary is that a normal thing when there's a a deceased that needs to go to another state do you normally contact a local Mortuary yes we call that a trade in boming where they will do the first call when the person they get the first notification of death they will go ahead and inal and then prepare whatever they need to and then they contact uh the family will then contact a mortuary to come and and whoever's going to be doing the service which in this case was was Chad and he called me directly and Mr I'm just GNA ask the witness could you slow down a bit um our court reporter you're you're talking pretty quickly it's fine you're articulate but uh for reporter sake we could just slow down the pace thank you sir so when you arrived at flams what what did you do uh we met Mr um Mr flam and uh he directed me to the to the uh the dressing room which we call it it's just the room outside the outside the embalming room and uh he uh he assisted me in moving Tammy from the table over to the uh the cop that I had brought up so that we could uh transport her back home did you make any observations of Tammy at that point just just a quick glance because I'm I'm I'm concerned as well that this was a this was a uh a sudden death I'm I understand that she was sick but somebody that young is usually that is usually physically enough to to overcome it but I I wasn't there during her during her convalescence So when you say that you understand she was sick how did you have that understanding um I I talked to to Jason and indicated that that's what he that that uh that he he was told the same thing but I actually heard that directly from Chad as well she was not feeling well she was had a chronic cough she was uh sick um and um yeah so your understanding of her sickness was from the information provided by Chad is that fair yes yes and you said something a moment ago I'd like you to comment more to the jury on you said you looked at the body because you were concerned can you explain the concern that you had whenever there's whenever there's somebody who's passed away without like without the doctors uh being there to to to handle that I'm always really leery of uh things such as well I I I don't want to have an autopsy I don't want to um I don't want to drag this thing out and there were already some red flags that I that I had encountered um prior to her passing away that uh just there was there was a cause of Suspicion for me and not suspicion con concern I wanted to find out if she had fallen if there was you know anything wrong with with Tammy uh flam funeral home actually uh did an excellent job in the impaling process and I I just glanced at her just briefly checking for any type of broken bones uh um Mark marks uh on the face on the neck on the arms and the Torso because uh she she was there and in the process of moving we did we did see her entire body and but I saw absolutely nothing that I could determine I'm not a medical examine I don't know so un fairness you found nothing that you thought would be suspicious I found nothing there that would be suspicious that would lead to my suspicions but um because of the the red flags it just something wasn't sitting well with me other than I don't want to drag it out I don't want an autopsy was there anything else causing red flags for you uh this the speed of the trial um of the trial the speed of the funeral kind uh no and eventually you did transport Tammy's body back to Springville we did Jason gam and myself moveed transfer all the way back to uh to springfi and without stating anything that Jason said did you have a discussion with Jason about Tammy on the drive back I did what kinds of things did you bring up and say to Jason in that conversation in that conversation we were both uh talking about how quickly things were doing it how quickly things were happening we both felt there was a feeling of of being rushed uh through this whole process and I I actually turned to Jason and I said do you think he killed her was that based upon the red flags that you were feeling was based on the red flags and when you arrived at the funeral home in Springville did you do anything further with Tammy's body prepared her for the family who were going to come in later Sunday night uh to to dress her to finish dressing her um typically a funeral director will uh cloth them up to um usually for sure to have the underwear on and and and get the body prepped ready so that they can come in and help dress I did most of the dressing myself on this because they only wanted really to do the uh makeup to make sure she looked good did you reexamine her body at the spr funeral home I did just out of curiosity for myself just to satisfy my curiosity as to was there anything wrong I saw absolutely nothing wrong so there are at least two times that you body that's correct thank you sir your H I don't have any questions at this time all right thank you Mr brixon Cross examination next judge if I could just have a moment please you man morning Mr Schultz morning um I also have a tendency to talk quick and over talk people and it's an Affliction I have so between the two of us this should be interesting I'll try to slow down though you've known Chad's family um actually longer than you actually have known Chad is that right well yeah no I've I've known of Chad but I when I really got to know Chad was when we moved into the ward that's why I got to know him better okay I knew his his parents um from uh the same general area of town that we grew up in okay okay and do you recall that you um spoke with officer maddingly about this case in an interview um February 19th of 2020 yes okay and an officer mingly went over a number of topics and I'd like to talk to you a little bit about could okay um you mentioned the name Jason William and Jason gam is related is it Jason gam yes Jason gam is the husband of Samantha William who is the the sister of Tammy Dell okay and um you mentioned uh uh something about Jason and um Jason knew Chad fairly well I would hope so yes he would been a part of their family forever spoke very highly of Chad correct had a very high opinion of Chad is that right that is correct and you as well you had mentioned in the report um you thought Chad was a a good guy yes okay do you still have that opinion um yeah I I I I yes I think Chad is a good person okay all right mind mentioned with um officer mattingley uh that Chad had spoke to you a little bit about uh what happened um regarding Tammy is that right about uh the the manner in which she passed away is that correct yes I had that conversation with Chad do you recall telling officer maddingly um the Chad said Tammy had been sick and had a coughing spasm and he woke up found her dead I'm repeating that from what Chad had told me okay and you mentioned that off that Jason William also was aware that Tammy had some medical issues as well is that right that's what this is what U so Jason had indicated to me as well during your discussion with Jason there was a history of some medic problems that Tammy was experiencing is that correct I don't know if I can confirm that okay but you talked to Jason about some medical problems correct that that the that he had heard from Chad as well okay okay um at the time you told officer maddingley that uh Chad found her dead beside the bed in the morning he called G to come and help out do you recall telling officer mingly that yes um that Chad said he thought the corer told him Tammy had an embolism Chad told Jason or me told you yeah okay Chad told me that the coroner conf said that she apparently died from an embolism and and sir how long have you um uh practiced uh the occupation that you practiced until your retirement in 2022 um uh about 12 years okay so you've had a significant amount of experience in viewing bodies and and looking for things that you you have a concern about regarding issues relating to to people after they've passed is would that be fair yes and you understand um and and please let me know uh that um if there ever is an instant where you were to find some problem with a body whether it was something suspicious or something of a concern are you under a legal obligation to report that to law enforcement as part of your licensing typically not because I would um that would it should have been overlooked already by either the medical examiner the coroner or the uh the Doctor Who is uh who was the attending physician okay so you're not under any legal obligation to report if you see something suspicious no but under a moral obligation you would report something something if you found it suspicious would you not you know what I I don't know if I really would report it or not because it's already been determined by that attending person right who knew that so I don't know who I'd report it to okay so when you say that attending person if if someone passes away and there's a physici there obviously there's no need to do an autopsy is that right only if the uh only if the medical examiner dictates it requires one a lot of times the family will ask us if we want to have an autopsy done in that case they can bypass the uh the medical examiner and have it done a a private autopsy done okay just to satisfy their curiosity But ultimately do you understand that a a coroner is the one who makes the final decision as to whether or not there's going to be an autopsy yes because that that person will then um contact the family and it's the coroner's obligation to go through and look at a body and make an initial determination as to whether or not there's any Foul Play or anything of a concern would that be fair good question because uh if you'd have to trust your your medical examiner or your coroner right right and when they and you don't know whether or not after they make this examination if they're under any obligation to report any Foul Play do you I I don't know what they okay I don't have but in any event um you took the time because you felt that the funeral was was moving along quicker than you would like it to be outside the standard Norm yes and and when you talked about the standard Norm you mentioned that the standard Norm is three to four days typically okay so what we were looking at is doing this in two days not three days right yeah yes but there was some talk about wanting maybe to do it on a Monday right so that uh again just certain red flags that yeah but you don't know if whether or not this was a reaction to grief or whether just someone wanted to just you know not as you expressed it the hoopla and what do you mean by the hoopla um getting things ready for for the for the program getting things ready for uh lunch ons that need to transpire doing things the typical funeral would have to would have to uh take some time to prepare and get get people on board with you and and in your experience that could have two facets to it that could either be a a healing process for the family to go through that right that could or on the alternative that could be an extremely emotional and difficult thing to go through that that healing process and we don't know which one we were dealing with here right we do not and according to what I'm reading in officer mingle's report you told him Chad said he didn't want to drag this thing out right he didn't say he wanted to hide anything did he no he did not only he told me was he did not want to drag this thing out okay okay um and then you um took the time uh and you took the time to look at the the face of Tammy is that right correct you looked at the neck yes you didn't see any issues of any kind of trauma or anything that would cause anything of a concern is that right from my limited medical knowledge no right and and I understand that you don't have the expertise but there if if there was a concern there there was no visible concern of any kind of a problem is that right that's correct and then you looked at her arms as you dressed her is that right yes and you didn't see anything on her arms that would cause you any kind of a concern would that be fair yes okay and nothing on her legs that would cause you to have any concern right correct okay nothing on any other part of her body that would make draw any concerns for you would that be fair correct okay we talked about Chad um being a seon and a sexon is someone who works in a the funeral business is that right correct and Chad's occupation was to part of it was to mow the grounds or take care of the lawn and the grounds area that's that's part of his responsibility yes and in terms of dealing with the actual um grave sites uh there wasn't a situation where he would actually hand dig the graves Woody very few hand dig hand dig they have a a back ho home right and you you anticipated what I say nobody nobody uses a shovel anymore to do that that's from the 1800s whenever yeah so in in essence what it is is someone on your staff would take out a back hoe and use a backhoe to dig up a a grave right from the seon's from the seon's boss mean or yeah the seon's boss would do that or who would do that use the back home who would determin to use the back ho who who would be authorized to use the back hoe when you're when you're doing that as part of this process it's typically the sexon okay so um Chad might have had some experience with a backhoe right he does okay maybe not experience with using a shovel to dig Graves though right correct right now at the time of the service um all of the kids spoke is that right yes okay all five kids um wait one was on a mission I believe oh I'm sorry you're right four kids four kids you're right um when Tad Chad was talking during the funeral he broke down he became very emotional he did okay was that something that in all of the experience that you've had knowing Chad and his family did that seem genuine yes it it appeared genuine from from my point of view and in your point of view is that you've known Chad for good part of his life is that right yes well not his entire life for that nine nine to 10 year period And when we moved into the neighborhood and you worked with them for worked with and you had an opportunity like you said during the time that you uh had downtime during other people's funerals you'd have a chance to get acquainted with each other correct so much that you made the opinion that you think Chad's a good guy that I I yes okay from 2000 up until 2015 right I had no problems right and um then during the actual funeral you had noticed that Chad and Emma were crying as well yes Chad was doing something with his hair he was emotional that he was tugging on his hair or something you said okay now this uh that is part of the I just barely got to see the uh the uh police report maybe about two weeks ago oh okay there was either a typo or I had Miss maybe I'd given the information CH talking about Chad uh I may have mentioned Chad in the report it was not Chad in the uh who was leaning over the the casket and U and it was it was his son gar okay was there showing the extreme distress emotional distress and and Emma was there as well okay and and were you aware that um G and Tammy were extremely close yes they Tammy was a good mother to all of her children she was particularly close with G though do you recall I don't know if I could answer that she was one way or the other with okay can't put a hierarchy to it okay and I appreciate that okay mentioned somewhere in the report that you thought of Chad as a brother is that right yeah yes I did and again Jason William at the time of the death of Tammy didn't say anything particularly negative about Chad right no in fact he defended him with uh with my comment about do you think he killed her right oh no Jason shared the same opinion that Chad is someone who's a good person yes he would he would never do that according to according to him and sir thank you and I appreciate direct thank you yor Mr Schultz to pick up where the defense just left off excuse me did Jason in addition to thinking he Chad is a good person express any other thoughts about Chad at that time no the the the thing that he mentioned was when I when I made that comment his his direct quote back to me is oh no not Chad never have you since had conversations with Jason about this yes are you aware if he holds the same opinion he does not hold the same opinion and I want to go back to the question that you were asked about your opinion of Chad you remember that question yes and in that question in your answer you said effectively Chad is a good person but will you please explain to the jury now what was the butt what were you wanting to say at that point well the but was the red flags that uh that have come up since Tammy was deceased and uh in the time of the of the basically the trial the things that were there were being said that the uh if you on particulars um certainly if you like to show with the jury okay um well there's obviously the the the Doomsday type thing that after he left Utah he um got involved in a in a group you want to cut me off what oh sorry okay I thought you were raising your head no sorry um I had the uh uh most of this was from Jason who had conversations with him as well well um about uh a date of the the second coming when that would H when that would happen also of the um of the catastor that would follow Deer Creek dam breaking Utah County being flooded um um white tents in a city being developed um for for the chosen the elected the the people and those types of things are what made me have the the suspicion when I went up there and found things being appeared to be rushed in my in my opinion and that's why uh that those are the red flags that I you you were asked a question about the norm of a funeral typically more than three or four days three or four days on the average and you still felt like this situation was rushed is that right yes was the fact that the death had occurred on a Saturday and there was a desire to have a a funeral or at least a viewing Monday does that play into the rushed feeling it does because everything's closed on the weekend you you can't get a death certificate you can't uh uh you you've you're going to find uh we have to have time to order caskets in we have to have time for the what the funeral preparation it it can be done and in this case I think it was done by having the funeral on Tuesday because that gave us one full working day where we could contact the authorities that we needed to to get everything uh in order and ready for the service on a Sunday are you able to contact a newspaper to put in an obituary we can put one in but it's not guaranteed that it will be in the next publication was that part of your concern for The Rush yes you were asked questions about Chad's ability to use a shovel versus a back ho yeah I'm not sure what that we don't use shovels anymore except for fine when you're done burying then you use a little bit of shovel just to kind of flatten out the the blot based on your background and experience with Chad particularly that work background that you already talked about right would it be safe to say was Chad someone who was comfortable around death oh he would have to be um and yes he Chad wrote 's he's an author he's written books about uh about death and dying as well he's he he's he's not squeamish about anything to as far as being around a dead person although that would must have been traumatic for him just to have his wife in that position but um yeah thank you sir your honor I don't have any more questions all right thank you Mr Wixom uh Mr prior that was narrow re direct is do you have any requests for recross all all right that final topic I think went outside the scope of uh direct so you may inquire on that final topic about the books well judge on the comfortable with death as well yes that's it okay being involved in the funeral business such as you are you are also comfortable with death and viewing bodies is that right correct and that goes with part of the occupation would that be fair yes okay and just because someone writes books doesn't necessarily mean if Chad hadn't had his experience as a sexon just the fact that someone writes books about topics that make some people uncomfortable doesn't mean that you're necessarily comfortable with death would you agree with that not really sure can you rephrase that sure just because someone writes books about topics that make people uncomfortable does that mean that you're necessarily A comfortable with death if you've had no other experience I think that would probably have to vary from person to person that's fair enough thank you I appreciate it byebye all right that will conclude the testimony of Mr Schultz is the state intending to recall him at any point you the state is not intending to recall him sander sapena from the defense no judge we don't intend to recall all right you're released from any subpoena thank you for appearing and testifying this morning you can be excused thank you you're welcome all right the state can call it next witness State calls Ron Arnold your honor only swe or the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth the help of God all right now that the witness has been sworn I do have a few questions before we commence with direct U Mr Arnold have you observed any of this trial either through online or in the courtroom since it began no have you discussed anybody else's testimony with them uh that they've given in the trial no okay thank you for your responses there miss batty if you'd like to inquire on Direct you may thank you your honor sir could you please State your full name and then spell your last name Ron Arnold a r n o d where do you live sir in Salem Idaho and what county is that in Freemont County okay who are you married to Whitney Arnold how long have you lived over there in Salem um five years okay do you know an individual actually I've lived there sorry I've lived there since 2015 we you know fair enough do you know an individual named Chad DeBell yes do you see him in the courtroom today yes yes can you tell me where he's sitting and what he's wearing he's sitting right there um he's wearing a white shirt and tie and were you familiar um with Tammy Dell yes where did you meet Chad and Tammy deel I was in Chad Tammy's Ward okay and about Chad Chad was my home teacher for three and a half years and him and his son came and to visit us um on a regular basis for that time which son was that Mark okay and did you get to know Tammy as well yes okay about how often did you interact with her um not that much to be frank with you okay I'd like to ask you about some dates in 2019 and 2020 is that okay do you remember the weekend of September 21st 2019 yes now I'm going to back up a little bit what what's your occupation I I'm a real estate broker in southeast Idaho for Ron Arnold real TV okay and that weekend of September 21st of 2019 were you asked to do a real estate showing yes who asked you to do a real estate showing Chad where was that real estate showing it was on 1800 East and about uh 190 North and that's near Salem OR in Salem yes yep and did you end up doing that showing for Mr deel yes who if anyone came with Mr Dell to that showing um I picked him up at his home and we met people there who was there uh David David Warwick and Melanie Gibb was anybody else there yes who was that um I didn't know at the time I was introduced to this person um they said they said his name but I didn't remember but looking back it was Alex Al too I apologize Alex Cox thank you sir was anybody else there no after that showing did anybody in that party purchase the property or did anything come of it no okay and uh I'd like to talk to you about October 19th of 2019 do you remember that day yes what happened on October 9th of 2019 we re received a call about between 8:30 and 9:00 uh Whitney and I received a call and uh and our Bishop had informed us that Tammy had died what did you actually approximately what time on the 19th did you get that call sometime between 8:30 and 9 o'clock AM what did you do after getting that call we immediately went to the house whose house did you go to to Chad and Tammy's house when you got to the house who was there um Chad was there obviously and and some of the kids everybody was in a in some different rooms so I didn't take inventory I guess fair enough did you see Chad yes did you speak to Chad yes did you notice anything about his demeanor he seemed distraught did you speak to him yeah I mean you know know I I uh I asked him you know how he was doing and you know in in that situation you know a spouse passing away and and uh yeah did you discuss with him how Tammy had passed on that day not really um no okay did you attend a memorial service for Tammy deel yes do you recall when that was I think it was the um it was a Wednesday um I think the funeral that was in Springville and on a Saturday and this Memorial was on a Wednesday okay so when you say there were so there were two separate Services yes and when you say spring one of the services was was in Springville would that be Springville Utah where Tammy was from yes and you attended a service in Idaho for Tammy correct and that was a few days after her death yes okay at that memorial service did you speak to Chad yes what conversation did you have with Chad the day of Tammy's funeral in idah or service in Idaho um more specifically I mean we we visited but he he said that uh he wasn't going to be living at the house at the time he didn't feel comfortable being there and was going to stay in Rexburg with a friend and when he said he didn't feel comfortable at the house did you take that to mean the home that he had shared with yes did he say anything about leaving Idaho yes what did he tell you about that he said that he was going to go to uh Hawaii to do a biography help help a friend do a biography did he identify who this friend was no did you think that was strange um I took it for face value I mean I that's what Chad had been doing some you know writing books and those types of things okay at some point in time did you learn that Chad had remarried yes at some point in time uh did you meet Chad's new wife yes when was that it was in um probably early November do you want me to explain the the circumstances well let me just ask you a clarifying question was that in November of 2019 yes approximately how soon after Tammy had died did you meet Chad's new wife that's when I met her in November yes okay and do you remember when in November not not specifically we were having the kids his kids over for a fam home evening and a meal and uh he had called me that day and said he wanted to bring his new wife over for us to meet and I had explained that I says well you know that your kids are coming over to our home for for supper why don't you just come then and and eat with us and you know you can introduce us then and did you meet Chad's new wife that night yes who was that Lori Lori valow yes did you have a conversation with Chad and Lori about whether or not Lori had children we we asked her the the normal questions you'd ask somebody that you don't know you know where are you from how many kids do you have you know those kinds of things and do you recall what Lorie's answers were or what Chad may have said I recall her saying that she that she had seven kids okay and could that have been in reference to her and Chad's kids combined um I I was led to I was thinking that it was her children not Chad's okay did she say whether she had children living at home no okay she was not specific about about her her children okay were you with her the entire night or were you in other parts of the conversation that evening um they weren't there that long but you know she are are we had a dining room area and a family room area that are kind of connected and so everybody was kind of together soal socializing is okay after the dinner that you had with Chad and Lori in November of 2019 when was the next time that you heard from Chad in March of 2020 when in what part of March of 2020 did you next hear from Chad it was around the 16th of March and how did Chad contact you or how did you come into contact with Chad he called me and asked if he could meet with me and did did he tell you why when he was speaking with you on the phone no and did you meet with him that weekend in March yes where did you meet with him um he came we were just moving from our rental into our new home and um I had him meet me at the at our rental and judge could I have some Foundation as to what year they're talking about would this be thank you Mr prior would this be March of 2020 correct thank you so you met with uh Mr debel at your rental home mhm and what did you do next um he he got in with me in my vehicle and we drove around and visited what was the first thing that you talked about with Chad debel I asked Chad the questions that probably everybody else would want to ask about where where are the kids and why haven't you told anybody and sorry that's okay um so let's zoom out a little bit okay what was going on at that time that caused you to ask Chad those question questions um Lori had been incarcerated and there was the big news and search for missing children now did you learn why Chad had wanted to meet with you that day yes eventually yes and why had Chad wanted to meet with you that day um we had previously talked about splitting his property and um possibly putting another home on it and we determined that his lot was too small and so he wanted to know if he could put a h a home on it which we thought he I thought he could my my experience thought he could probably put another home on it and we talked about the the fastest way that could be done and that was with either a manufacturer or a modular home and and we talked about some of those details and did he tell you why he wanted to put that home on his property at that time he said that uh he was he felt like he was going to need a place for him and Lori to live okay and you said that you talked to Mr debel about doing that as fast as possible why why did you talk about doing it as fast as possible um I at the probably because getting into a home and having one built back then took took eight to 10 to 10 months and you could get a manufactured home in three to four back then okay and back to the conversation that you had with Chad about where the kids were when you asked where the kids were who children were you referring to the kids that were missing Lorie's kids his wife Lorie's children and what did Chad tell you about his wife Lorie's children and where they were he looked me straight in the eye and he told me that uh they were they were okay and when this all was going to be when when everything came out everything was going to be just fine and that was in March of 2020 that's correct I have no further questions for this witness all right thank you Miss B cross yes morning Mr Arnold good morning so my understanding is you mentioned that you live in the Salem Idaho area right correct been there since 2015 correct you're actively involved in your uh your church is that right that's the LDS faith is it yes okay okay and please Mr Arnold wait until the question's done before you answer our court reporter can only take down one at a time judge I just realized I was going very quickly so I'm gonna also slow down like him to go quickly seems to be a habit with a lot of people uh you mentioned that Chad was a member of your ward is that right correct okay now from someone on the outside describe in essence what a what a ward is a ward is a geographic area in uh in a stake that's the geographic area in the inside the church of Jes Jesus Christ of latterday saints okay so are there more than one stakes in a state yes okay so a ward is a geographical area within the um a part of in this case it's eastern Idaho is that right correct and that would include the town of Salem which is I've been there a couple of times it's a small community right Salem's not an incorporated town it's a small community a ward has somewhere between three and 600 people in it a state has somewhere between 25 and 3,000 people in it and it's based on numbers in a geographic area so if we talk about the Henry's Fork Ward we're talking about a very large geographical area the Henry's Fork there is the Henry's Fork there is Henry Fork Ward but it's the the Rexburg Henry's Fork stake and it has it had nine Wards in it and the ward we were in was the Salem Third Ward okay and and having gone through Salem what I recall about Salem is there's a church there correct and that's kind of pretty much all of Salem would that be fair well there's a lot of residents there all spread out but yes other than commercial buildings and religious Facilities Salem consists of a religious facility right yeah there is a church house in Salem and and it's a fundamental part of the community there it's a drawing area where the people meet on Sundays and other times for various activities would that be fair that's correct and in one instance the use of Salem Church is for some of the folks out in the Salem area the only place that they could get internet access would that be fair no it's not no okay but the Church offers free internet as part of its uh building there you recall that the the internet in in our Salem building is really bad so you don't go there to get internet okay okay so um you mentioned in September 21 of 2019 do you recall that September 21 of 2019 and that was on a Sunday well if if if the 21st is a Sunday yes okay well on that particular day you were at church with Chad that morning and that is correct oh sorry sorry that's okay don't hold me in contem I'm try would you ask him for me too okay yes thank you you're just gonna make me slow down even more now okay so uh on September 21 of 2019 you started the day with Chad at at church services is that right that's correct and and and without getting too personal I know what how long I'm in church but how long of a of a a process is that well it's a two-hour block but there's meetings for leaders before and and then there's some some uh things to do after church right so it can Encompass three maybe even four hours sometimes correct so on that particular day although you may not have a specific recollection uh Chad could have been there just before 12 o'clock that day would that be fair um I I can't remember to be frank with you what time we was meeting because we we switch every year our meeting time switch okay every year but but it does run late into the morning right yes so that wouldn't have given Chad an opportunity on a Sunday to leave and and meet with anybody else prior to your uh you picking Chad up at his house on the 21st right I was not with Chad eye to eye contact the whole time at church before or or during or or even after okay but when you picked up uh Chad at your house at his house he was still in his church clothes wasn't he he was in a white shirt and dress pants but no tie okay but that would be that wouldn't be unusual for what he would wear to go to church correct that's correct okay and then at that point you picked him up and you drove out to a piece of property that you were uh trying to Market would that be fair yes which was basically less than two minutes from Chad's home right and I appreciate you telling me that uh and at this point um Chad mentioned to you A guy by the name of Keith about looking at that property was that connection with property in a Keith um Keith had been was uh somebody that I had been talking to about uh trying to help him find a a either a home or a piece of property that he could purchase and build a home on okay and then that particular piece of property is something that Keith uh was interested in prior to you going out there with these other folks is that fair yes okay uh but then at some point Chad contacted you and said he has someone who has expressed some interest in buying or at least purchasing some property in the area do you recall that yes and that person was a guy by the name of David Warwick that's correct and David Warwick contacted Chad and in turn Chad provided you with David's phone number um that might have been how that went um I think uh originally we met at the property first and then I think Chad provided the the phone number for David okay but you're not sure about that yeah I can't remember the order of that it could have been the other way yeah okay the first time I met David Warwick was at that property right um okay so we're unclear as whether you had the phone number before or after correct okay and then when you drove out to that property with Chad after church um did you visit any other properties no um I had uh I had tried to get Chad to wait till Monday and he he had indicated that they were only going to he the people that were coming to look at were only going to be there Sunday and it would only you know we really needed to do that so he pressed that and so I reluctantly agreed to go show that property that and it was and it was actually in the afternoon okay it was after after 12: p.m it was it was later in the afternoon it was a little later in the afternoon so maybe church and all of the obligations with church may have run a little later I was I had been at home well I would I had been at home when he called and says will you will you come and show this property okay and at that point um at that point when you showed up uh there were several people there is that right the only person there was when when I arrived was um and and I learned this later was Alex right and then while we were there we were there briefly and and David and and Melanie showed up okay so from what I understand then it's your testimony that this person Alex showed up first when you arrived with Chad I and I I don't recall if he was there when we when we arrived or he arrived um after we were there but we weren't there very long okay and this person d drove in a um his own vehicle when he when he arrived there would that be fair um yeah I assume that yes it wouldn't be someplace where you'd walk from somewhere sa to go there right okay and then subsequent to that in an absolutely separate car um the other two people who you mentioned were um um who were the other two people that were there afterwards when Alex arrived oh D David Warwick and Melanie Gibb okay so then in a separate car David Warwick and Melanie Gibb arrived correct correct okay and how long were you there looking at the property maybe 15 minutes okay and did David Express that he had an interest in purchasing a piece of property he was he had indicated that he was either looking here or in another location to maybe do some developing and did he have the uh did he give you the indication that he had the financial ability to do that or is that something looked into we did not talk about that at that PO at that time so at this point on September 21 of 2019 in the afternoon if I understand you correctly you didn't look into the financial resources that David may have to purchase 88 acres is that right it was 79 acres and he uh I had not checked with him prior to that oh I was under the impression it was 88 acres am I mistaken 79 79 Acres okay and the cost of that 79 Acres would have been about how much money at the time about $700,000 okay and but you didn't take the liberty of deciding whether or not David could afford that 700 and some odd thousand do is that right Mr prior I didn't know who was coming okay that's okay I'm just asking I I went there to show the property for as a favor to Chad right and so that's the first time I'd met David Warwick he had mentioned Chad had mentioned that he had he had talked to several people that were maybe possibly looking at developing property in the area okay and I assumed that this was one of them and so if we would have kept pursuing it obviously I would have okay and that's not as a means I'm just getting the fact that we didn't we didn't establish whether David could even afford to buy that property is where I was going I guess I'm not seeing the relevance of that question to me well that's unfortunately that's unfortunately up for the judge to decide not for you and I to decide you understand that right um I guess no I maybe not okay and then at some point um there was an arrangement for um you to meet the following day with David is that right um I don't think so I think we maybe tried but um they were leaving town and so the only contact I had with David after that was we had a couple phone calls follow-up phone calls you know are you interested he wasn't sure and then then we didn't have any more contact after so you don't recall the fact that you went to Gringo's Restaurant the next day with uh with Chad with the intention to meet David Warwick on that on that following Monday you don't recall that actually I don't okay okay and you don't recall mentioning to Chad that David had notified you that he had already left town and wasn't going to be able to meet on the Monday following uh that's good yeah that that could have happened that way okay so in other words uh there could have been a discussion with David about going back to the property and it could have happened that he called you and said I'm I'm having to get out of town and um I can't meet with you on Monday it could have happened that way we did not have a conversation about him returning and looking at the property before he left town okay now you um mentioned that you uh on the 19th of um 2019 you um were over at Chad's house is that right what's the date October 19 2019 yes correct okay and when you were over there on October 19th of 2019 you you're familiar with that house right no I have never been inside that house oh I had been in the in the forer and they have a a breeze way or an entry way and that's as far as I'd ever been in that house did you familiarize yourself with the property surrounding that house um when we talked about splitting the property it was about the acreage not about the the house or the the floor plan any of those kinds of things okay so the the acreage that you're talking about do you have any recollection of how much acreage we're talking around that surrounds Chad's house you own it how much how many acres is it well I appreciate I don't know judge could we have a sidebar yes e e e e e e right thank you Council we're back on the record I had a side with Council regarding the last response from the witness uh and I just want to instruct at this point ladies and gentlemen of the jury the witness just provided uh what was essentially an unsolicited factual response in the case and that answer has no relevance to the charges in this case or the guilt or innocence of the defendant I'm going to instruct you to disregard that previous comment made by the witness and on that fact act do not discuss that in any way in your deliberations or speculate about the previous answer and I'll also instruct the witness to avoid mentioning that topic again Mr prior with that in mind then you can continue with your cross-examination thank you judge now you mentioned that uh Chad said that um the kids are fine right yes and you mentioned that um the truth will come out is that what you said something to that effect um I didn't say the truth I he he said that when things all come out um everybody will realize that everything will be fine okay so from that did you gleam that the the children were alive I assumed yes okay and did Mr debel at the time did Chad at the time when he told you that was he sincere about what when he told you that yes and and you've known him for a while then that was true sincerity when he told you the kids are fine right protction calls for speculation hold on don't answer that sustain okay now you talked about the fact that um there was some discussion and please um there we are you talked about the discussion that um it would use generally be against your um practice to do anything on a Sunday correct I don't try to work on Sunday for lack of a better word for my perspective that would be called like a Sabbath is do you familiar with that term yes but regardless of your faith and your beliefs it's a day that you reserve for spending time with your family and and doing things uh in that regard church and family yes okay and Chad was of the same Faith as you are and then had the same practice of Sunday was reserved for being at home with his family and and practicing your faith and and your commitment to your family would that be fair everybody does that different okay and typically most folks in your faith would have some sort of a meal on a Friday or on a Sunday in the morning or in the evening is that true or is that not true um that's that's subjective too okay everybody does that different okay okay fair enough then you went to a um a discussion that in March of 2020 that there was some discussion about subdividing the property is that right objection misstates the testimony you had some discussion about putting a um another modular home on the property is that right we had determined by then that we couldn't that the county wouldn't let him split the property okay but because there was another there had been a a single wide trailer on the property as well as the home and another septic system and uh I had told him that the county would probably allow him to put another home on it knowing that he would never be able to split that or sell that separately okay I see so I misunderstood the facts a little bit thank you for clarifying so in other words there was some some thought process initially into um doing some sort of division of the property and you folks determined that was not feasible is that fair that's correct so the only other option would be to use a then existing septic uh that was already on the property somewhere correct no okay please tell me then because it had a septic system there the county would probably allow him to to put another home on it not necessarily that they would have to use that septic system okay all right so there was an intent of March of 2020 from what I gather for Mr deel and his new wife to to put a residence up for them to live in that's what he indicated okay so the intent was for them to stay for a while and objection calls for speculation St the intention was to put a mobile home up on the property for him and his wife is that right he had mentioned that that could been could have been one of the reasons okay judge I don't think I have anything else thank you all right uh redirect your honor I'm sorry to do this but I'd ask for a brief sidebar I think okay why don't we do this it's a good point for our mid morning res Rec let's go ahead and take the recess um if the jurors are able to because of our shortened day maybe we can get the recess done in under 30 minutes maybe 20 to 25 minutes for the recess possible and then we'll continue I'll have the sidebar with councel all right e okay uh Mr Arnold we'll have you retired to the uh vestibule there while we take up this evidentiary issue and take the matter up in your absence Miss spey and your honor getting into the this witness's intent I think that the door or excuse me having this witness testify about Mr Dell's intent and his sincerity and his rationale for putting this piece this uh manufactured home on the property I think the door has been opened to the fact that uh it is now Mr Arnold's opinion as a realtor and as somebody familiar with what it takes putting a manufactured home on a property that uh Mr Dell's urgency in wanting to put that manufactured home on the property while uh Lori valow was incarcerated was due to the fact that doing an excavation would allow him to dispose of evidence I warned Mr prior about that this morning prior to the testimony of uh Mr Arnold I had no intent to get into that on Direct but it's my belief that the door has been opened uh response Mr prior judge I don't believe the door door has been opened in that the the the the difficulties is I'm allowed to inquire was the intent because the initial testimony if anybody opened the door the state when they said well they talked about Chad and Lori wanting to live in the house and there was testimony about that I'm allowed to inquire as to whether or not Chad and Lori were going to be allowed to live in the house and that was their intent to live in the house there's no intent to open any door and there wasn't any opening of any door and if you're going to allow a realtor to speculate and obviously a hostile realtor or to speculate about something like that I think that's highly prejudicial and it's it's a the door has not been opened at this point uh I think the door has been opened at this point based on the uh cross so I'll allow that but I'll be careful Miss py it's got to remain within uh his personal knowledge not speculation of course and I also uh am somewhat concerned about your witness is going back with that factual assertion that's going to confuse the jurors uh so be cautious if you're going into that territory but I do think the uh motivation or intent was brought at issue in Cross so I think it is fair game for redirect um but uh boy I want to be ready to try to shut things down if it starts to run off the rails on that previous issue as well so that will be the Court's ruling I'll permit limited questioning on that so long as it goes to direct personal knowledge that this witness may have about the issue and your honor if I may ask just a clarifying question to make sure I I stay within the parameters of the Court's ruling yes uh my intent would simply be to ask the realtor based on his knowledge of you know the process of putting a manufactured home on a piece of property and based on uh what he has learned about the children being found on the property does he now have a different opinion about why Mr Dell wished to have a manufactured home put on his property well as so long as it's based on his uh personal opinion on facts that he knows and not just pure speculation uh I'll see how the questioning goes but I I will permit a line of questioning on that thank you very much your honor I appreciate it okay we'll take our break and then we'll try to come back on here 20 minutes at about to 10:35 all rise e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e thank you please be seated all right we're back on the record uh CR 2221 1623 state of Idaho versus Chad guy debel the jurors are not present uh the court did just want to put something on the record here that we had a sidebar outside the presence of the jury and the witness and off the record regarding the response is it related to the witness uh saying that Mr prior was an owner of property uh the court determined in that sidebar that that was an irrelevant fact for purposes of the case and shouldn't be considered by the jury I just wanted to make a record of what was said in that sidebar and would ask councel for both the state and the defense to refrain from any further uh questioning that may elicit that since the jury's been instructed to disregard it as any to consider in deliberations in the case so with that in mind uh we're continuing with cross examination I think at this or we are starting with I apologize we're on redirect is that correct Miss BTY okay we'll continue with then we can go ahead and have the jurors brought back in all right please thank you please be seated y all right we concluded our midm morning recess at this time Mr Arnold is on the stands still under oath and Miss batty you may proceed with redirect examination thank you your honor Mr Arnold we spoke about the weekend of September 21st correct correct and you spoke with Mr prior about the weekend of the 21st correct correct I just want to be clear for the record could it be that the 2nd of September was actually that that Sunday of the weekend of the 21st whatever whatever day Sunday was that weekend is the day that we met at that property so it was the Sunday of that weekend correct thank you and you mentioned uh that Mr debel told you that he had guests in town that day correct um I'm not sure I'm was aware of that other than that that that he had indicated that they were in going to be in town or around but nothing specific about him having guests in in town okay so did he make I should ask this a different way did he make any representations to you about how long these folks were going to be in town no okay well clearing that up correct sorry that's not correct he said they were going to be leaving and could only meet on that Sunday afternoon okay thank you now who contacted you about doing this showing of this piece of property Chad and you were asked about the financial position of David Warwick who wanted to look at that piece of land I was as a realtor do you run credit checks on people before you show them a piece of property or a house sometimes yes is that something that you would do on a regular basis though no is it unusual that you didn't run a credit check on Mr Warwick that Sunday no okay thank you and Mr prior talked to you about the defendants rationale for wanting to move a manufactured home onto his property uh in March of 2020 correct yes now as a realtor are you familiar with what the process of uh installing or or placing a manufactured home on a piece of property is not all realtor not all Realtors are okay but do you have an idea of what the the generalities of what that would what that would take yes I I do know that yes okay and have you assisted other customers in in doing in obtaining manufactured homes and putting them on pieces of property yes now can you kind of briefly describe what that process would entail the key word they're brief okay I'll try to be brief how about as briefly as possible well you you procure you procure a manufactured home you have to procure a piece of property to put it on then you have to do ons sites meaning the foundation you have to dig a foundation for footings and and where how to put the struct so you can put the structure on it uh you have to either hook up to City Water city sewer or if you're in the country you have to do a a we and septic system and as a resident of the Salem area um you're aware of what was found on Mr Dell's property in June of 2020 correct yes based on your knowledge well let me backtrack a little bit you were asked by the defense attorney about what you thought about Mr Dell's beliefs or what you were asked what Mr Dell's beliefs are or int itions were for putting a manufactured home on his property correct yes and that one of those reasons could be that he wanted to live there with his wife Lori when she got out of custody correct yes based on what you know now do you think that there may have been a different reason that he wanted to put a home on that property yes I have no further questions for this witness all right that didn't open the door for any further recross so that will concl include the testimony of Mr Arnold is he under subpoena by the state no your honor he can be released all right from the defense judge he can be released okay thank you for appearing and testifying you may go ahead and step down and that'll conclude your testimony am I allowed to stay in the court uh if you'd like to now that you're no longer going to be testifying you may all right we'll have the state call another witness at this time then and your honor the state calls Whitney Arnold only swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you fact great thank you all right now that the witness is under oath let me just inquire before examination begins uh this trial has been live streamed as well as open to the public for viw Have you listened to or reviewed in any way any of the testimony that's taking place in the trial no I have not okay have you discussed with anyone else their testimony that they've given in trial I have not okay thank you for your responses then with that Miss batty you can inquire on Direct thank you ma'am could you please uh tell the jury your full name and then spell out your last name for Madam court reporter sure my name is Whitney Arnold Arnold is a r n o l d Mrs Arnold where do you live um I live in Sugar City Idaho okay and uh who are you married to Ron Arnold do you know an individual named Chad DeBell yes I do is he in the courtroom today uh yes he is can you point to where he's sitting and what he's wearing he's here in a blue shirt with a plaid tie okay and were you familiar with uh an individual named Tammy deel yes I was how did you know Tammy deel um Tammy and I were friends and acquaintances and collaborators we knew each other in many different Realms how did you meet Tammy Dell I don't recall exactly um we lived in the same community and I lived within a couple of miles of her did you attend church with the day Bells yeah we did okay I'd like to talk to you about October 19th of 2019 sure did you get a call that morning uh yes what was the nature of that call um the phone call was from our clergy or bishop and he just let us know Ron and I took the Ron took the phone call and just said Tammy DeBell died were you surprised um I was shocked actually what did you do after getting this phone call uh Ron and I decided that we'd go over and and offer our condolences and see if there was anything we could do to help and also maybe get some answers it was very unexpected and um pretty pretty shocking I think we're also looking for verification is this true could this have really happened okay and did you over the daybell residence that day we did approximately what time was that I don't have an exact time but before 9 okay and did you make contact with anybody there yeah we did do you remember who was there at the residence that morning um Emma Leah G Seth [Music] Chad and I can't recall if Michaela was there or not Michaela is Seth's wife and Emma Leah G and Seth are those all Chad's children these are all Chad and Tammy's adult children yes okay did you talk to Chad I did talk to Chad that morning how would you describe his demeanor um maybe disconnected um I was expecting to see more emotion but there wasn't a lot of emotion which is not indicative of anything just grief experiences it it shows itself in many different ways sure did you have a conversation with Mr deel I did did he indicate to you how uh Tammy had passed away or how she died he did not did you have a conversation with him regarding an autopsy I did after we had spoken with the kids for a while um there was you know confusion and and grief and and a lot of sadness and turning away from the kids I asked Chad have you considered an autopsy assuming the answer would be yes for such a young vibrant woman and his answer to me was no so I pressed again are you sure you don't want to do an autopsy and then I turned and faced the children and Chad at the same time and said don't you want to know these girls carry the same DNA as their mother wouldn't you want to know if there's anything that can be pre prevented in the future and he said no very calmly and we felt like the emergency responders that was here to take Tammy's body away had a pretty good idea of how she died okay at some time after the 19th of October did you learn whether Chad had remarried yes I did learn that Chad had remarried when did you learn that Chad had remarried it was within a couple of days of him actually getting married and when was that I found out on a Sunday um do you remember what month that was in November okay did you ever have the opportunity to meet Chad's new wife I did how did that come about um since Tammy had died we had been inviting um Chad and Tammy's children over to our home for dinner and our intent was to offer them a place to grieve a place to to have a little reprieve to be nurtured and that had become kind of our habit or not habit but it had become more familiar toest inviting them over every Monday night and Chad came back in town which we were made aware of and so we asked for or or Ron had initiated contact with Chad and let me know that Chad and his new wife would be coming to our home that night with the children for dinner and did they come to your home that night they did come to our home that evening and did you have a conversation with them yes not with Chad specifically I was understandably disappointed and frustrated why were you frustrated I felt like emotionally that was uh not fair to the kids as they were grieving their mother and um yeah it just felt I I was at odds with him Within Myself and I never verbalized to him just recognizing maybe where he was at in his own grieving process gud and just as a inquiry could we have some Foundation as to when this uh this meal took place and when did this meal take place I can't give a specific date but it was a Monday night in November in November would that be 2019 2019 before Thanksgiving and after probably the 1st of November that's as close as I can get okay thank you and thank you Mr prior did you speak with Lori that night that they were at your house for dinner we did I I did have some conversation with her and when you spoke with Lori was Chad present yes Chad was present did you have the opportunity to ask Lori about whether or not uh she has children yeah just part of casual conversation um asking her the questions where are you from where did you grow up do you have children and to which her answer was yes I have seven children did she tell you whether or not she still had children at home um actually that was a spefic specific question and she said all of our children are out of the home okay and when she said she had seven children did you understand that to mean that she had seven children or did you understand that to mean she was referring to her children and Chad's children I was unclear on that okay H if I may have just a moment and I have no additional questions for this witness your honor thank you all right thank you cross examination no questions judge okay well that will conclude your testimony then um I would presume she's released from any subpoena from the state is that correct that's correct honor the defense does not intend to call her back okay you may go ahead and be excuse thank you for appearing and testifying this morning all right the state may call its next witness state would call Craig Huff your honor only swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you B yes y thank you all right this uh witness is now under so I have a few questions for the witness before we start with examination Mr Huff this trial has been broadcast uh live streamed as well as open to the public have you uh observed any testimony or any part of the trial since it started uh no okay and have you discussed with anyone else the testimony they've given in trial uh no okay thanks for your answers Miss batty you can inquire on Direct sir could you please State your full name for the jury and then spell your last name Craig Dennis Huff hu FF thank you sir where do you live I live in Springville Utah and are you familiar with an individual named Chad debel I am how do you know Chad debel uh Chad was in the uh Church of Jesus Christ of latterday St Ward that I was in uh for a number of years okay and would you describe yourself more as friends with Mr Dell or acquaintances with Mr Dell uh I would say friends okay from from acquaintances to friends so and uh did Mr deel move out of Springville at some point he did do you remember when that was uh it seems like it was about 2015 thereabouts and did you maintain contact with Mr Dell after he moved away from Springville Utah I did um in 2019 uh did something happen to Mr Dell's family uh from what I've seen in the paper and everything is uh actually let me rephrase that question um did Tammy Dil pass away at some point yes okay and I should have asked a better question there do you recall when that was uh in my recollection it was in October of 2019 did you attend a memorial service for Tammy debel I did where was that memorial service held uh it was held in in the LDS church in Springville Utah 9th East and second North so do you remember what date that was I know it was I think it was a Monday I don't remember the exact date and would that have been in October of 2019 yeah okay yes ma'am thank you yes at the memorial service for Tammy debel did you have a conversation with Chad debel I did uh during the the visitation or the viewing part of it I had a conversation with Chad specifically at that time did he say anything to you or did you discuss the way or reason that Tammy had passed away uh as as I was going through the line uh Chad and I have been very close uh and uh when I got to to him he uh broke down crying I broke down crying we hugged each other and and he he said something to the effect she choked to death and and she just that's how she died so did Chad say anything else to you about things that happened around the time that Tammy died uh I I can't remember whether they're specifically things he said there are a lot of things that have been said over the the years sure can I ask you let me ask you a little bit of a different question okay just to make sure that we don't get into any hair say did you and Chad have a conversation about passwords we did can you describe that conversation uh it it took place uh my recollection it took place the Saturday after the the the funeral uh in Rexburg itself I had children that lived in Rexburg and and we had made arrangements to have lunch with Chad and so uh we met at the Hickory Restaurant and and we went in and we had a uh were sitting there and he talked about uh one of the Miracles that had happened and that was that shortly before a week or so before the uh Tammy passed away that he found out what or got all of the passwords that he had never been able to have before not that she didn't let him he just was never part of knowing what the passwords were for their bank for their computers for those kind of things and he said that uh just one of those Miracles that happened now I I got all the passwords before she passed away and he had gotten those passwords from Tammy uh I I can't say that specifically but he said that he obtained he obtained those passwords I can't remember whether he said Tammy gave them to me or what I I don't recall that and did he was he specific on how soon before her death that happened it seemed like it was a week before I I again I can't say specifically that it was a but that's my recollection is that it was a week before and that's what he was characterizing as a miracle yes that because he never had them in the past okay I may have just a moment your honor okay and I have no additional questions for this witness thank you Mr prior cross examination morning you described that you and Chad are are friends good friends yes uh in fact when he moved from um Springville to Rexburg in do you recall what year that was I think it was 2015 right you continued that friendship uh and came to visit him somewhat regularly correct we did when we were in Idaho to to visit our children in Rexburg we stopped in and saw him and Tammy now I I'm looking at a phrase that says bisha secretary he he is when I was called as a bishop in my uh LDS Ward okay uh he was called as I I asked for him to be my executive secretary uh which is he would take care of all of my appointments would be there when when people were there so we had two people present all the time and he was so he was very much a part of of serving in the Bishop Rick of the local congregation for me and and in that regard the two people who share that respon being a bishop in a a LDS faith is a is a high honor uh I I would say it's I wouldn't wish it on anybody but I would uh it's one where you're responsible for a local congregation and I said so yes okay so and and the relationship between the bishop of the the award and the bishopi and I'm going to kill that word bishopi secretary that needs to be executive secretary thank you okay but I don't have to say that anymore so yeah okay the executive secretary that's a that's an significant relationship that has to occur right it is yes and and you're familiar with all of Chad's children correct very much yes you were aware about Mark going off on his mission and you've spoken chat about that y yes about Emma Leah Seth I'm forgetting one thank you yes um and when you're describing Chad's personality since you know him so well how would you describe him uh whe When I Was associating with him when he was down in Springville he was it was wonderful I mean I he served in the scouts with my my children he uh was very much involved in in the local congregation he was very much involved a wonderful person so okay and in terms of personality traits how would you describe those personality traits uh I it's it's sort of hard to differentiate uh the church side of it and the just the direct relationship I think he was he was very driven with his with his writing he was very driven with uh with wanting to uh do things things that that would make sense to to people uh I know that he loved the writing he he loved uh being with the youth he loved being with people so uh that was I would say that's probably the biggest thing that stands out to me and and if you were to pick between someone who is is humble or someone who's maybe a little ostentatious which one would Chad better fit uh when we were down there I object on relevance here over when when when I knew Chad down there I I would say that he was fairly humble so servant of the church yes someone who was um wanting to serve in the capacity in your faith in a strong way yes okay now um you talked about the passwords a little bit you had been over to Chad's house a number of times right I had and you were actually a Rel ly close to Tammy as well right yes were you aware that it was Tammy who did the the finances and the organization of the the company that they were running yes and it was Tammy who was basically the driving force between the running the publishing company right I I know that from a finance standpoint that Tammy was the one that was very much involved right and so and then Chad did Chad was the um would it be fair to say that Chad was the artistic side he was the one who wrote the books yes he was very passionate about a variety of different theories in his books right that's correct and and if you were to categor categorize Chad's books would you say fiction or non-fiction well I I would say they are nonfiction uh it I I'll I'll say it from he he at the beginning of his books he always said it was non this is my opinions these this is non-fiction he never presented ones that I read of his as being fact so okay and he he enjoyed the passion of of of um expression would that be fair yes and you would say that he as an artist he would elaborate and he always like the the uh the process of elaborating and And discussing in a wide lens uh different theories and ideas right yeah they were they were his theories that that different than what some of the things that I thought but yes but we can all agree that you know it's everybody has different theories and ideas especially when it comes to religion right correct so if Tammy was running the finances was she the one p was she solely responsible for the finances to your knowledge I don't know to my knowledge okay but you do know that she was running she was the one holding the purse book she I know that that Tammy when a check was written Tammy wrote the check okay so to discuss the idea of finances that was a burden that was going to be placed upon Chad on the passing of Tammy would that be fair it would be okay and um you mentioned when you were visiting with Chad that there was some expression of grief at the time of of the memorial by Chad in the the viewing yes very much and anything that he said to you did did did you find that his expression of grief at that time was genuine yes so you don't have you didn't have any perception that he was faking it or trying to pretend to be grief strucken about the loss of his wife is that right dur during the viewing no I did not and and again you've known him for a long time yes that relationship was so close that you were as part of your commitment to your religion and your faith you were going to appoint him and have him work as as the person closest to you to to conduct your your role as as the bishop right correct so you'd be a pretty good person to judge whether someone's Faking It about grief or not Faking It about grief would that be fair I don't know that I could say I'm a pretty good person I what I felt was genuine when okay is and in knowing Chad for a significant period of time you truly felt that he was expressing a genuine grief about the loss of his wife is that right that's that's correct I have nothing else judge thank you all right all right redirect Mr Huff you were asked about your beliefs regarding Chad's sincerity of emotion in the after the passing of his wife yes did you learn at some time after uh Tammy's passing that Chad had remarried yes were you surprised by that I was shocked by that you had a conversation with Chad in that immediate aftermath where he described it as a miracle that he had obtained all of Tammy's passwords to the financial information about a week before she died that's correct that's correct based on that conversation and on Chad's subsequent remarriage and your history with him do you still believe that his emotions were sincere at the time I I that that's a hard question because uh I I Lov Chad as a friend and and want to feel that it was that they were sincere uh but there's always those questions that you have that uh were they sincere were they not sincere and so that's that's one of those challenging ones that that question is hard to answer that's fine sir so thank you very much I have no further questions your honor all right thank you that will conclude then the testimony of Mr huff and I believe he comes in as subpoena by the state is he released from the subpoena at this time Miss B yes honor he's released from the defense as well he don't need to come back okay thanks all right Mr H thank you for testifying you can go ahead and step down from the witness stand a quick sidebar with Council just to discuss scheduling please e e e e all right thank you the uh State can go ahead and call it's next witness please thank you your honor the state would call principal Rich Garner orir the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth that I thanks all right now that the witness has been sworn I have a few questions before direct begins uh Mr Garner this trial has been live streamed as well as open to the public have you observed or watched in any way any of the trial testimony since the case started no okay have you discussed with anyone else the testimony they've provided in trial no okay thanks for your responses Mr Wixom you can inquire on Direct sorry principal Garner can you please State and spell your first and last name for the record uh my name is Richard Garner r i c h a r d Garner g a r n e r thank you and where do you live I live in Rexburg Idaho where do you work I work at central element School in Sugar City Idaho and you're the principal there am how long have you worked there I've been at Central for about this is the end of my sixth year in that building in our district where did you work prior to that I was at a a building right well 200 yards away kersha intermediate for 22 years before that excuse me do you recall working with Tammy deell yes right I want to draw your attention back to the summer and 2019 um first can you explain to the jury what was Tammy's job at the school she was our librarian that was her main job that was like on her contract that was her main focus but she also expanded that she would do the usual librarian things with checking out books reading stories to the little kids uh it was kindergarten through third grade so she was working with them but she also developed and helped us organize our computer lab I asked her to help to make that better and she was good with computers so she developed was developing our computer lab and showing them basic skills and Internet safety and those kind of things and then she volunteered she covered some lunchroom duties uh outside duties and then in the lunchroom she offered to check the kids in for lunch and take the count for the lunch count on her lunch break so is it fair to say she did a lot of things that she hadn't been originally hired for yes she was covering a lot of things were there ever things that she volunteered to do at the school yes all the all the time she would just help out wherever she could did you ever have her build a website for the school no she made a little little web page for the kids when they went into the lab to click on it and be able to go into the programs they used and just she she built that just kind of her own as part of the computer lab did she ever do anything with respect to the library windows and curtains yes well she's always looking ways to help out and improve and I just remember um one time she came in she said I need to get your approval for something and I wondered what that would be and she walked me down to the computer lab and the library she's like I made these curtains for the lab I hope it's okay I kids are peeking in the during recess are peeking in and interrupting the kids when they're trying to study and and read and I'm trying to help them and so I made these curtains can I hang them up is that okay with you so she would do things like that based on your perceptions of Tammy was she someone who was was well-liked at the school yes she was always helping everybody and she interacted with all the faculty because she would take their students at library and that was their preparation time so she would interact with all the teachers and duties she would interact with teachers and other members of our faculty and staff so yeah and every I never heard anyone say anything bad ever about Tammy I want to ask you some questions about observations that you may have had about Tammy's activity or health first let's start can you describe for the jury the layout of your school well it's older it is what it is it's an older little school in a little town uh it's got three Wings to it it's kind of shaped like a tea and one and so the library was kind of down on One Wing toward the middle end and then the that we were developing was down and around the end of another Wing so so when Tammy would go back and forth between the lab and the library how far did she have to walk to do that all the teachers would bring their students to the library to start out because they didn't know for sure what she'd have them do so she would usually read them a story check the books in and let them check out books do a little activity and then sometimes she would take them to she would check them in in at the library and then do whatever activity or read them a story and then if she had thought of it an activity with the computer lab she would walk him down the hall and then down the end of the other hall probably 50 yards from you know back and forth and then she'd walk them back and the teachers would pick them up and or she'd walk him back to the classroom how frequ frequently would You observe her moving around at the school all day long from the start of the first class because she would she would be getting a class and then walking them back and forth um getting another class and then she would go out to recess Duty stop by the office to pick up a radio to take out a recess Duty then she would um go in and do the lunch count pick up things for the lunch count and then start back up with classes so she was busy all day I I don't I guess the only time I saw her sitting was when she was doing lunch count and was lunch count an assign Duty or something she volunteered for um it's not something people want to do and we don't really have money for it you get a free lunch if you do lunch count she was willing to do that get a little free lunch on her break and use up her time to do that based on your observations of watching Tammy and her activity at school do you feel did you ever observe anything that would have caused you to to identify whether or not she might have had a health concern no based on your observation did she appear to be healthy yeah she was just really active energetic happy all day did you ever notice any changes to her weight either up or down I don't recall any significant change in any way while Tammy was working at the school do you recall was she someone who took sick days no she's very reliable usually you as an administrator you kind of know the people that have a lot of sick days or are often gone because it's very difficult to get substitute teachers it's a really hard spot to fill kind of everybody in public head knows bus drivers and substitute teachers you're they're very valuable but it's and it's very hard to fill to get people to fill those positions and so you know people that require that a lot because it's in your mind because it's hard every day that that happens it it's like oh how in the world that we going to cover that so someone that you're never having to do that you know it comes to your mind those that need that often and she I don't recall her ever needing that so is it fair you don't remember her to have any sick days I don't recall any sick days did you ever come to know anything about Tammy's activity level when she's not at the school I would hear at the end of the day as teachers were leaving and you know closing down the day uh response Mr Wixom you know I can just ask a different question go ahead based upon your personal knowledge things that you observed did you ever observe her in any activities outside of the school well I saw her getting her car going to zoom with other teachers her daughter and then they were heading to other classes or things and then I did see her in uh at a road race a running race can you first identify when you saw her there and where and then will you tell the jury about that experience here um it was a Saturday morning September 7th and I just out working in my yard and we lived 2019 go working in the yard it was an early morning and our house is about one block from a park and so whenever there's a race or an event we can hear the the music so we heard music playing a morning of September 7th and I wondered what it would be uh a good friend of ours has the timing business for most of the road races in that area so I asked my wife do you want to ride bikes or do you want to go over and say hi to our friend that runs the timing business perhaps he would be there so we rode our bikes over and saw that it was his timing business and we walked over he was not there but others we just visited with people we knew and I remember just finishing that up and turning to look and Tammy and her daughter Emma were crossing the finish line and I oh I'll go say hi to Tammy and Emma just like you would with colleagues and normally and so I went over and talk to them and let me back up in case I missed it what kind of a race was this oh it was a that had a variety of distances but I believe they ran the 5K and when you went over to talk to Tammy what did You observe about her physical condition at the end of the race um she just looked like someone who ran a 5K and she was just Tammy she's like I said hey good morning you did it it's good to see you guys I didn't know you were be running and she said oh yeah we're here to support Joe that was uh Emma's husband and he had been sponsoring the race it was a was raising money for a charity so they wanted to support him so uh she and Emma ran the race and we just chatted for a moment they just were catching their breath and sipping Waters and just like normal people that are finishing a race and then said goodby and then we went home so based on your observation of her at the end of the race was there any reason for you to to think that she um wasn't healthy based upon her completing this race race no um I've I've seen a lot of people finish races I've coached a lot of cross country in track and actually help time some of those events at those races and I've seen people finish in what different ways that they finish and there was not any concern I had for them they seemed totally fine what did you first learn of tamy well let me withdraw that at some point did you learn that Tammy Dil had passed I did how did you learn about that on October 19th of 2019 I got a text early in the morning earlier than usual on a Saturday morning and it was from a former cooworker and it kind of surprised me because I hadn't heard for them for a while and I she did have a second grader in our building so it wasn't totally unusual that she would text me but I got a text in that morning and it said we lost Tammy how did you react to that it was puzzling because I'm like why am I hearing for her and we lost Tammy I didn't know what that quite meant and my first thought actually was oh no she's taking a job somewhere somewhere else that was my first reaction in my mind and how are we going to ever replace her and everything she covers and and I thought well maybe she means maybe she means she's not going to be here this this week because she had been talking about her mother and her mom was having some struggles so I thought oh we lost maybe we lost Tammy for this week and know how are we going to who could cover the library for the week well that was my initial thoughts so I called her up and I asked her about it and then I found out that it was much more serious than that that tamy had passed may I ask who did you call up um I called up the person that text me and that's when you learned that she'd actually passed away yes she lived near her the person that text me into and she was part involved in a part of their congregation at church so she had found out very early because they had been contacted for helping the family with the you know that she had passed away so she was kind of emotional and she realized oh I would need to know because she had been a teacher so she realized oh I better let Mr Garner know because it's going to affect a lot of people and you know her son and everybody at the school so I better let him know that Tammy had passed away what was your reaction when you learned that she had actually passed away um I was just shocked I was stunned why well I thought she must have been in a car accident or something had happened because I don't know why she would pass away so it was just really shock really shocking what did you do when you learned that information uh um just gathered myself together kind you got you know try to figure out a plan a game plan uh realized man I need to reach out to Emma because she was also worked at our building that was going to be a huge deal to Emma uh to lose her mom because they were so close um and how how we could help out and what we could do to get through this next week and the rest of the school year at this point it was a a big deal are you saying these are the things that were going through your mind yes so what did you do next Once you'd thought about Emma what did you do uh I realized well I want to reach out to the Emma her daughter and other employee like it with any employee I was concerned about her and so I asked my wife if she'd go with me said will you you know go out with me I want to visit with her make sure she's okay see what we can do to help maybe try to get an idea of the the schedule they have or if they've had any idea what could be done you know to help them out or get ready for what was coming up with our logistics for the next while so did you attend did you go to the daybell home we did yeah my wife and I who did you first see and make contact with I still that's pretty vivid I remember knocking on the screen door and it opening and Emma opened the door and she just took a little small step down to where I was and just collapsed on onto my shoulder just fell onto my shoulder without speaking to anything she said what what did you observation did you make about her emotional state she was she just was weeping on my shoulder and I mean I I felt for her but I was a little awkward CU my wife's standing there and she's an employee and I'm a guy in education in elementary especially you always have to be mindful of your interactions so I could tell she was very distraught and I just held her there and I looked over at my wife and she just kind of smiled and she was just on my shoulder for about a whole minute and then finally she asked us to do you want to come in and we steep back into the house at the house did you ever have any contact with Chad at that point yes and first of all can you explain to the jury what were your observations about Chad's demeanor and an emotional state when you got there so we stepped in the house and she Emma sat kind of back sat down to the side on my left and talked again for a little moment how are you doing are you going to be you know whatever time you need to take off we'll understand we'll help you visited for a moment then my wife stepped forward and was visiting with her and that gave me a chance I kind of scanned the room at that point to see who else is there and saw some of the other children um but I I really only knew em at that point so I didn't I knew they were the children but I didn't know names or anything and then I scan out I saw Chad behind me to the right kind of just back behind I didn't know he was right there he was just standing right there and how was he behaving he was just standing there did you have a conversation with him I did I reached out offered my condolences um asked what we could do to help uh I didn't you were trying to be empathetic and sympathetic to the situation but also I was hoping to to know if they had plan I asked about how things were going and he it came up that Tammy was gone she was in Springville and that uh I asked kind of well what is your plan do you have a plan yet I know it's early um he didn't really say a lot because and I I just put it to in my mind I was putting it that he was probably in shock or really tired exhausted from you know the E the night and everything that went on so why why were you um concerned about whether he had a plan at that point well I wanted to re you know to be kind to them and and off that but also if I wanted to know when the funeral might be what they had in mind what their thoughts were because if like I said earlier it's difficult called to staff school and so many people like Tammy I knew that everybody would want to go to the funeral and so I was like how can we do that if it's going to be like on Saturday it's no big deal that would be great if it was on Friday afternoon or something everybody can just go and then when he said that it was going to be Tuesday you know you want to be gracious but I was like Tuesday and in Springville I said' whatat are you doing here what are we doing in Sugar City so that we can all attend and we all adored her we loved her and I want him to realize that we all cared about Tammy and your wife was loved and we really we want to be here I know that most everybody that works in our building wants to go and honor her and so it was obvious that it was going to be Tuesday for funeral in Utah and that was it and I just thought with with trying to be polite because of the situation just like then my mind's racing I'm we're going to have we had 20 teachers and I know most of them and myself I should go there I should be there how do we all go to Springville Utah four and a half hours away and get back and cover 400 students and everything else with the school so I I encouraged I asked is there any way we could have a memorial or do something here cuz we're all going to want to come and do something for Tammy is it is it only going to be Tuesday funeral what was his reaction uh he said I don't want to inconvenience or put anybody out did you have occasion to explain to him some of the concerns with the logistics in the school a little bit but I didn't want to make it I didn't want to come across that oh it's just about us being convenient you know and and at the school but I I shared that it would be a lot easier if we could have something in a time where so many of us could attend and in that conversation when you pressed him more did he ever agree to arrange a memorial he he said well possibly we could do something and we agreed that he was going to check and then we would talk later to see if we could work something out and did you later talk to him more about this yeah after so then we left and my wife and I went out over to the school and well I went to another cooworker to kind of say to them did you hear what happened can you give me some ideas these are possibilities um she uh so I visit with a hold on we gota wait for a new question here I sustain an objection go ahead so principal Garner just just isolating it to conversation that you had with Chad just explain to the jury what plans were eventually made so later my wife and I were at the school I was finishing up a painting project and he called and I had it on speaker because I had a roller in one hand and I you know I was painting and so we were just talking it through and we came up with a an idea that it would work out to have a memorial service for Tammy on Wednesday at 1:00 that way the family could have the funeral in Utah on Tuesday and then drive back back the morning of Wednesday and then we it took quite a bit because the superintendent had to approve this and the school board had to vote to close school so we I explained that to him I'd have to get all permission to do all these things so everybody could tend but we closed just our school out of the whole District we just closed our school and we had a memorial service for her at 1:00 on Wednesday had you proposed the idea to him to maybe even do something in the evening on Wednesday or another day well I I don't recall all the details of what we worked out ultimately um who made the plans for the agenda or arrangement for the actual memorial service right before it w was I don't know exactly when but I received a text and it was a text for the service of who would speak and the songs and those kind of things that came had to be pretty close to Wednesday because I had to go nobody was around to do that they asked me to help out and I said do you have a program or anything and they said we haven't planned on all right Mr Rick I'm G ask for the witness to clarify please certainly can you're being asked to explain the context of this particular conversation who is it with and when was it I got a text and it said the list for the program I can ask an additional go ahead Mr Wix thank you who sent this text you're talking about I don't know I believe it was Emma sent me a text listing the program ultimately did you learn what the plan was for the memorial yes and was there anything that you believed was unusual about that well I was surprised that they that we we were doing the whole thing kind of they did they wanted me they asked if I could arrange it so I contacted the the bishop of their congregation and arranged a time and for the church to be opened uh and I had run Wednesday morning and get the program we made a little program program for the the memorial as far as you understood was there any help you got from Chad on those kinds of logistics for the memorial service no you I may I have just a moment please you you may thank you at this time the state has no further questions all right thank you Mr prior you can cross good morning good morning um would you prefer that I refer to you as principal or Mr Garner what would be your preference Mr Garner's fine thank you so Mr Garner I saw through the records that um you were interviewed by um officer maddingley is that right that's correct do you remember when that interview took place it was in May of 2020 I'm sorry I'm trying to if I could just have a moment judge yes and I noticed that in the um interview you used an expression when you were when you were discussing um Emma and Tammy's relationship do you recall what that expression is you used um I don't know the exact word if I were to suggest to you that you said Emma and Tammy were thick and tight would you explain to me what you meant by that uh they were mother and daughter and colleagues at work and Friends well thick and tight they're mother and mother and daughter but it was more than that wasn't it they were they were exceptionally close correct they were very close they were worked at the same school together during any free time they tend to spend both most of their time together would that be fair yes but now you you spoke about um Tammy and and what you observed but you also told officer mingly that um you didn't know anything about um Tammy outside of school correct well I was talking about they uh went to Zumba well that's not what I'm talking about okay I'm talking about in terms of her home life what was going on with her family at home you don't know anything about that right I was not very aware of her okay what you were aware is what was going on at the school and the fact that on a couple of occasions you may have observed her going to a zumba class right correct okay now in terms of the 5K race that you referenced um you mentioned that Joe was the uh sponsor of that race or was the promoter what which was it organizer prom organizer okay and then Tammy mentioned to you that you were that uh they were there to support Joe as part of the organizer of this event correct yes they and would you would it be fair to say that Joe would know you know who ran in the race or who participated in the race yes okay and you saw at the finish line is that right yes I saw them cross the finish line okay okay so in other words you actually saw Tammy running is that what you're telling me yes okay now you um in with this knowledge that Emma and Tammy were so close Emma's grief in this situation was was very genuine would you agree with that yes and you mentioned that you thought and I don't want to put words or or cause an objection but when you said that Chad was there U did you did you think that was shock or or or he was just being stoic I believe I used the word stoic okay trying to be strong is that fair I don't know I I put it to he could have been exhausted he could have been in shock he could have been strong I don't know now were you aware of um where um Tammy grew up and where her family Roots originated I knew she was from Springville okay so did you find it unusual that they would have a funeral in the place where she was raised and her family Roots would you find that something somewhat unusual no okay so this idea that you wanted people to from your school to celebrate at the memorial um you approached Chad with that idea correct yes we were wanting to be able to honor her right and and you would agree that she was a a reliable worker at work and someone that could be counted on at work yes she's one of these people that whether she was sick or not she would come to work and she would work and and not really let on that she may not have been feeling well that's consistent with her characters objection your honor the attorney is testifying would it be consistent with her character to show up to work and put on a strong face would that be something you would you would you wouldn't uh something that you would expect from someone like Tammy possibly okay you mentioned officer maddingly that Tammy was um with the school district for four or five years is that what you said that's what I said at the time okay and Tammy was actually with your school for she was just starting her second year as right it was my I was the start of my second year working at the school so my time working with her right and it was her start of her second year as well correct I'm not sure okay and at the start of your second year that's when U the insurance as far as getting insurance and insurance kicking in would would start you'd be eligible for that bump on the insurance once you start your second year is that right objection outside of scope your honor sustained judge I think that's all I have any redirect judge could I inquire as to where the redirect would come from let me first see if there is going to be redirect Mr Ron I might have just a couple of questions honor ahead I'll perit it principal Garder is it safe to say that you're being asked to recall things from five years ago yes is it safe to say that could impact some of your memory on some details yes are you confident that you worked with Pammy for a year and a half regardless of how long she worked at the school yes is there any let me draw that I can't remember if you explained but did you happen to see this son-in-law Joe at the 5K you may answer did I see did you restate sure did you see Joe with a 5k I did any question that you're not confusing that event with another event no I I just went over and spoke to him CU he was over by the timing ban and I had already gone over there to check to see if my friend that owns the timing business was there so I'm like Hey Joe how are you I didn't know you you know we had a conversation and then I talked to other people then I turned saw Emma and Tammy thank you I have no more questions okay that will conclude the testimony then of Mr Garner is he still under any uh subpoena from the state for potential recall he is your honor all right well then uh principal Garner as your excuse today I'll note that there's an order in this case prohibiting Witnesses from observing testimony so the state can further discuss that if they intend to recall you but uh you would not be permitted to view further testimony or you may be excluded from future testimony if you're watching what others have testified to in the case so uh with that in mind then that will conclude the testimony of this witness and you can go ahead and step down thank you for your testimony all right um from the prosecution that I understand the state's requesting that we break for today is that correct that is correct your honor I think as we indicated yesterday our next witness had been a little lengthier of a witness and so I think today would be a good stopping point to come in Fresh on Monday all right um we had discussed that schedule so we are going to conclude for the day we'll Begin Again with testimony on Monday morning for the weekend then uh ladies and gentlemen of the jury please continue to abide by the Court's instruction to not do anything to research this case don't look up the case or any of the trial uh P what what's being publicized or reported in the media don't discuss the facts of the case amongst yourselves or with anyone else uh you're not permitted to do that until your deliberations begin and we appreciate you continuing to follow that instruction each day so we'll now be in recess until Monday morning we'll intend to begin the testimony again at the regular time and schedule on Monday with evidence starting at 8:30 so unless either side has anything further we'll recess for the weekend nothing further oh sorry nothing further from the state either nothing from the defense okay thank you Council we're in recess all right please look if I think there's issues to any issues we're gonna call him Shopify helps you sell at every stage of your business like that let's put it online and see what happens stage and the site is live that we opened a store and need a fast checkout stage thanks you're all set that count it up and ship it around the globe stage this one's going to Thailand and that wait did we just hit a million orders stage whatever your stage businesses that grow grow with Shopify sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify.com youout audio we all make garbage and humans throw out 2 billion metric tons of it every year but some of us have found unique ways to turn that trash into treasure one company melts and stretches PVC pipes to make HomeGoods another grinds glass back into sand to rebuild coastlines whether it's ecob bricks made from milk cartons or eyeglasses made from used coffee grounds here's how people around the globe deal with Worldwide waste this machine weaves human hair to make mats and this nonprofit has been using them for decades to help clean up oil spills I'm going to show how fast it soaks up the oil how clear water pours off of it and the hair holds the oil 1 kg of hair can soak up around 5 times its weight in oil I'm just trying to get every nook and cranny here I mean this is literally just the hair from your head but for most cleanups oil companies use mats made from petroleum or spray chemicals that can make people sick so if this method works why aren't more oil companies using it to clean up their messes maybe the weirdness makes it you know just more interesting I don't know we went to San Francisco to see how hair mats can clean up worldwide waste matter of trust has been making hair mats since the year 2000 founder Lisa gotier sources hair from salons in over 30 countries we we have what we call the Hair Force the donated clippings arrive in small batches people mail this in every day we get I don't know roughly 10 or so envelopes a day we get a lot of blondes as you can always tell when we get a package from Los Angeles like right away blonde blonde blonde a lot of redhe heads in Boston this is probably from Boston we've been told that we got a package of underarm hair from Michael Phelps and the Olympic swimming team the team also uses animal fur clippings from alpaca uh Buffalo sheep Etc llamas Lisa and her team of felters start by cleaning the bags of donations a lot of these were swept off the floors of hair salons pins cigarettes food anything sharp anything hard that might break the needles all of that is garbage I don't find it gross at all I have a lot of hair and I it doesn't bother me um but and I you know it's part of the charm of it the felters lay out the human hair on this bed of dull nails and start to layer it with animal fur and fleece we had to learn that we needed to not use sharp nails because it would start to slice the hair and David invented this for us and he created it so that this thing just lifts up and it's really easy for us to remove it afterwards we get out make it more neat and faster then these machines tighten the fibers the final product looks and feels like a doormat feel how like sturdy that is it's really sturdy the idea to use hair to clean oil spills started in 1989 with Phil MCC a hair stylist from Alabama he was watching the Exon Valdes oil spill in William sound Alaska and on CNN uh it was showing the otter covered in oil and the water around them a little bit cleaner Phil looked down at the oily head of hair he was shampooing and it just sort of snapped for him use shampoo because hair collects oil I cut you know a pound of hair every couple of days all of this could be going to clean up oil spills so 10 years after Phil came up with the idea Lisa partnered with him to scale up at first they stuffed nylon stockings with hair to make booms shaped like sausage we're going to stop doing as many booms as we have because they needed the nylons which was again plastic to hold them together and we're going to start doing more mats because mats add surface area and so it just collects even more oil that idea was put to the test in 2010 during the largest oil spill in American history BP's deep waterer Horizon spewed 4 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico over 3 months and Lisa's team got a flood of donations we just started to get in ponytails from people just you know cutting it off and then of course it was spring and it was shearing season um and there's turns out there's Buffalo herds in in the United States so there was a lot of fleece just coming at us in trucks and mail trucks and everything it was it was fantastic and overwhelming we had 19 warehouses about 100,000 square ft each from the Florida Keys all the way to Texas right on the water because people are just so generous Lisa says that a representative from BP reached out to her about a partnership Insider asked BP about that but the company didn't get back to us in the end the oil giant didn't deploy her hair booms Noah governmental organization helped run the cleanup effort scientists concluded that hair booms weren't as effective at removing oil as booms made with polypropylene an oil derivative the booms would get water oil get saturated in water become heavier then the water and start to sink in the water and then whatever oil they had on it sunk with it and Recovery was very very difficult trying to get those back out of the environment you don't see that with the poly booms these Poes do not absorb water like our hair does BP instead tried to burn the oil off but the fires only covered a small percentage of The Spill the company also sprayed dispersants to dissolve the oil and push it toward the ocean floor where much of it remains today and those chemicals can make people sick but the consensus was that the oil was less harmful at the bottom of the ocean than washed up on shorelines it's a tradeoff sometimes they use the word net environmental benefit but it's not net p it's less bad still locals along the coast used Lisa's Hair mats to protect their beaches the EPA told us that our BP response was the largest Grassroots mobilization they had ever seen and I was out there in you know Mississippi Alabama uh Louisiana Texas and Florida eventually BP was able to plug the leak on its own but matter of trust proved it could mobilize thousands of people to address an EP iic catastrophe the number of large oil spills has gone down in recent years but matter of trust is now focused on a much more common problem motor oil that drips from cars on the road and makes its way to the ocean there's many ways that um oil gets spilled and the way that we concentrate on is oil that contaminates our waterways is actually just drips on the street mixing with rain water and getting into storm drains and those drips add up to over 180 million gallons per year that's 16 times the amount spilled by the Exxon Valdes another use for the hairm mats the US Air Force is experimenting with them to manage chemical waste on its basis they're doing a very large um system with um contaminated water reservoirs and once the mats have done their job soaking up oil how does matter of trust plan to get rid of them it actually can can break down into compost it takes a really long time and it's not our number one idea of for the circular economy what we think is better is if we have really clean incineration even as she grows her business Lisa wants to make sure her hair mat process remains an open- Source technology Phil mccor had a patent which expired and we all decided that it's everybody's hair and we're a public charity and we thought that it was best not to renew it and we just thought it's something that should be offered to the world she's shipped her machines to more than a dozen Partners around the world we just had a really great meeting a big Zoom meeting with all of our partners around the world and everybody was super jazzed because I think we're just getting into that next level now where we're looking at how to send out more and more machines and we have one in London one in Wales you know France Switzerland Finland Athens Greece Tokyo Santiago Chile and she says it's possible to do this work from home for us cottage industry is the future anybody can make a little felted experiment just by putting a bunch of hair and fur in your shoe and walking around in it for a while the heat from your heels and the sweat and the um and the jostling from your shoe you'll you pull it out and you will get a little a little mat and you've tried this oh yeah you might think you can't turn a flip-flop into a piece of art but you would be so so wrong the team of sculptors at ocean soul in Nairobi Kenya carves the most common Footwear on the planet into hippos giraffes whales and more and so far the company says it has cleaned up around 10 million sandals from beaches streets and landfills they cost like a dollar the problem with that is they break very easily so what you have is a huge Menace it flip flops everywhere in fact in some parts of the world flipflops make a nearly a quarter of ocean plastic can a team of hand carving Artisans make a dent in such a huge source of litter we went to Nairobi to see how ocean soul makes art using worldwide waste this style of sandal is some of the oldest Footwear we have dating back thousands of years as plastic became cheaper toward the end of the 20th century foam flip-flops took off today we make over 1 billion of them every year but most don't last long that means a lot of flip flops end up in landfills and waterways in Kenya the coasts are often littered with them so Tres come from even as far as from India Philippines to over here so sometimes we are we are shocked we have a network of collectors that collect flip flops from our weekly Beach cleanup efforts at the cost of Kenya when you bring the flip flops to us we pay you an equivalent of 30 cents us per kilogram you'd need to B more than 25 pairs to to make the minimum daily wage of a typical worker in Nairobi all told collectors usually bring in about one ton of flip-flops per week that's more than 3,000 sandals first the shoes go through a thorough hand wash using water and detergent we live in a very hot climate it takes probably 2 to 3 hours for them to dry and then our artists will come to pick them and use them uh to make the sculptures small and medium sculptures workers die cut the flip-flops into templates then use a non-toxic glue to bind the shoes together remember we using a tiny flip-flop so you have to build up before you're able to carve down then our artist will carve them out into a finished product the company has around 90 employees many of their AR used to make traditional Kenyan wood carvings but that kind of work has dwindled since the early 2000s when Kenya scaled back logging which made raw materials harder to come by when I used to do wood working I never thought of destruction of environment these artist say working with a softer material isn't too different from working with wood the knives and sanding tools are the same but you do get fewer splinters the end product will be a crab it takes almost 2 hours to complete a piece for larger pieces artists repurpose old insulation from shipping containers as a base and cover them with flip-flops and that's why with the bigger sculptures you'll notice that they have a contour look while with the smaller ones there's a stripe look nearly every part of the process is done by hand and it can take up to 3 months to complete some of the larger pieces the only time we use a Machinery is when we come here to sand so after the they done covering with a knife they'll come here and sit down and use the setting machines to smooth the sculptures I'm going to walk out of here because it's too noisy the company keeps a stock of marine animals like turtles and whales in keeping with the clean ocean theme there's also Safari inspired carvings like elephants and giraffes which are the best sellers people say that they love them because of their twisted legs and they also have beautiful eyelashes the sandal shavings get repurposed we have a shredder in the back that shreds them into smaller pieces like this and from here we're able to make mattresses that we donate to a refugee program in Northern Kenya next comes a quality control check the lady will make sure that you know the elephant has two ears two eyes one tail if anything is not right it's returned back to the artist where they will fix it then the statues are washed one more time before being shipped to their destinations the plastic and rubber often used in flip-flops poses a unique danger to marine life they actually Target plastic thinking that is food the smaller fish having digested plastic tends to be buoyant in that they are not able to dive down into the ocean because of that light material in this in their stomach Julie Church the conservationist who founded ocean Soul got inspired after a visit to the Kenyon Coastline in 1997 she noticed that a lot of kids were making toys out of discarded flipflops and from there she got an idea that she could actually replicate the same model now the team collects and carves more than 700,000 flip flops a year and the pope himself was presented with an elephant carving when he visited Kenya in 2015 so this is the gift that I hope will accompany you on your very important journey through life Joe and his artists aren't the only ones who've noticed the world's massive flip-flop problem firms big and small have introduced flip-flops made from Ocean plastic and even flip flops made from algae that are 100% biodegradable the company sells about a third of the pieces to shops museums aquariums and zoos around the world they're also sold online in a store in Northeast Florida and in gift shops around Nairobi we saw that there was a niche and there was business to be made and that's how we started it we had a rhino the same size as this lion and it it was going for 43,200 I'm looking for antelopes and maybe zebras to take to my friends did you know it's from D no I had no idea about that but they are so beautiful but the combination of Co and the war in Ukraine has brought on new challenges our hardest Duty right now is actually getting our stuff from Kenya to abroad the supply chain has been really messed up the company told us their shipping costs have nearly tripled and things take about four times as long to get where they're going occasionally ocean soul takes on special projects in 2019 we made a life-size call for a dealership in Alabama United States so that's the biggest piece we've ever made we used 4,500 flipflops and that project took us about 3 to four months to complete there we go Joe wishes he didn't have so much material to work with flip flop waste is a global problem we have received numerous inquiries from India Indonesia Brazil they have the same problem theyve asked us when can we come and set up shop in their countries but the ocean soul model might present the most effective use of flip-flop waste the full material for forming the FR prop is an irreversible process when a company comes up with a way of using the FR prop the whole piece as it is it's a big Advantage until they run out of material artists like David will continue turning trash into treasure one shoe at a time yeah I'm very proud of the work we do cuz when we recycle the FP flops we save the environment and also people admire what we make this squishy sludge of coconut waste could hold an answer to a deadly problem alhaji saraj bah spent months of trial and error developing his recipe for cooking fuel made out of coconut shells instead of trees I was like it's either it works or it works it need to work so I need to do everything for it to work he lost his adoptive family in a Mudslide when he was 17 before that he spent years living on the streets dreaming of the day he could launch his own business bio bricket help prevent deforestation because they are produced from biomass waste they are not produced from wood he lives in a part of Sierra Leon that has lost 70% of its Forest cover over the last 5 decades one reason for deforestation is people chopping down trees to feed their stoves tree roots are essential to holding back the Earth during increasingly intense storms you move from having Lush Green Mountains to dark brown death traps

Channel: KSL News

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Length: 203min 51sec (12231 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 27 2024