Carl Jung & Individuation – Dr Kevin Lu, PhD

[Music] I'd like you to think of a time right can be from the past can be from right now here in the present so a time where you found yourself at a crossroads in your life right an important juncture where you perhaps had a really important decision to make right and potentially you have a split right in the sense that there could be one decision that was a very risky choice right but one that you're certainly interested in and one that is perhaps a safer choice right the more rational choice perhaps the more financially viable choice right so has everyone thought of that moment I see several not so it wasn't hard for people to come to that moment all right anyone need a bit more time no okay so hold on to that moment right keep it all right this is an image that we're going to be working on throughout the entire talk now start to ask yourself what path did you take right why did you take that particular path right how do you rationalize it to yourself all right how do you feel when you're brought back to that particular moment do you look back perhaps with a sense of wonder and all how all the the stars aligned all right that you were brought exactly to the place where you need it to be right or do you actually look back with a degree of sadness and regret right and I'm sure we've all experienced that in our lives right were there missed opportunities and I can share a personal experience from my own life and that was the decision to become an academic and a teacher right a very difficult decision why well I just didn't want to do it number one because my parents were teachers all right that's a big no-no right if your parents do it you don't do it but I'm sure many of you have followed in the footsteps of your parents in some way shape or form and number two I just didn't want to do anything all right I was too busy trying to become famous as you do when you're between the ages of 16 to 24 right with no power comes absolutely no responsibility that sounded brilliant to me so the plan was to go to you diversity when I went to the University of Toronto get my BA get the piece of paper get my parents off my back right go enjoy my life and if I did need money I was actually gonna retrain to be a chef right so there was my set goal right my set plan things started to shift in the first two years of university right so at the end of the first year you know I started to really enjoy it I really got into the academic work loved the environment and I remember actually having a session with my TA not to discuss anything about history but just to discuss well how do you know that you're supposed to be an academic right how do you begin to pursue that path and he paused for a second and then he said just very surely and eloquently he said academia sorry you do not choose academia academia chooses you right so you do not choose academia academia chooses you so those are very wise words second instance was just a moment of recognition right someone just actually believing in you and giving you some encouragement to follow a certain path so I was by the end of my second year I had finished a course with a professor called ten days that shook the world PA 104 I saw this professor at the end of second year in his office I knocked on the door I asked him do you remember me and oddly enough he said yes I do remember you and I asked him give me a job where I almost demanded Asit give me a job and he paused for a second and he said right you come to my office next Wednesday right and there I you know from that moment I became the youngest research assistant in the history department we're working on things together and there comes a point where he's reviewing my work one day and just very flippantly very nonchalantly he said it as a matter of fact if you don't do your PhD what a waste that would be right so that just moment of recognition of someone saying listen you know that there's something you can do here and that completely changed everything for me right so that brings me to this point all right I'm on the precipice right I'm on the edge of something a decision has to be made right what compels me to jump all right and what I'm suggesting to you today right it's an important part of the individuation process is to take that leap and there's the crucial point right making the decision to follow through on that point right to become an academic to truly devote myself to my study meant sacrificing a lot of things sacrificing time with friends right at very close close-knit group of friends socializing drinking right everyone likes a drink here and that now and then but also not necessarily giving up music that was a part of it but giving up the dreams I had associated with music right that become inter interconnecting with that so when that doubt crept in I realized you know what it's time to stop I can't pursue this the dreams I had associated with something else might be achievable through another means and I quit my band at the time which is a big thing because it's the first band where I actually started making money right I wasn't losing money I wasn't playing to to people in the crowd right there are at least 20 people so you know it's making money and off to library I went right there's that now does that mean I'm individuated hell no right look at me do I look individuated to you all right absolutely not all right for a young individuation is a lifelong process and if anything it's not something that you can achieve within your lifetime so the first thing what this talk is not about it's not about me giving you the steps to the individuation process how do I become individuated right absolutely not more than anything else right the talk is about how you might benefit right where the utility of using Young's idea of individuation as a framework for your own psychological development I'm understanding your life trajectory but I also want to think critically about the concept as well right and that's the the kind of academic in me this means asking some very difficult questions about individuation number one is it an elitist project right is it all only for the few and not for all right is it this kind of heroic singular endeavor but many people describe it as being right and third No is it actually possible today right because if you look at Young's definition of individuation that has a particular context right it's steep it's steeped in romantic philosophy right it meant being able to escape to nature right to just kind of turn yourself off right and be one with your surroundings is that actually really possible in our highly technological world right are we ever that disconnected so some important questions last by the end of the talk you'll have sufficient information at your disposal to come to your own conclusions that's the hope at least right anyone know who drew this picture by the way fantastic well done okay so sorry there's the summary of today's lecture right CG Jung 1875 to 1961 a Swiss psychiatrist and founder of analytical psychology and that's it for the biographical details now a few general words about the development of the personality and how this is understood in young psychology arguably young psychology is a psychology of the whole life right now many young yen's perhaps on critical and informal young yen's would say that Freud strictly only focused on childhood right poor Freud all right then again he said a lot about things of hood young as well I think it's a misrepresentation of Freud but he does emphasize these stages of psychosexual development that range from birth childhood to adolescence right so there's certainly a focus in Freud on that key stage and central to this is the resolution of the Oedipus complex right where the desire to tour the the yearning for the the affections of the mother actually leads the child into conflict with the father and what actually needs to occur right is that we eventually as a son I would need to identify with the values of my father right in to identify with his values because that ultimately leads to socialization right if I'm able to identify with the values and the rules of my father that means I'm able to identify and fall the rules of a larger father ye society itself all right for young however yes it's important to look to the past right and how that affects the present but equally it's important to look at right now right and the the recent past more than anything what are the stages or the events that have led to a particular issue that presents itself right and more than anything else where are you going right where do you think you're going right and is there a mismatch between where you think you're going and where you actually need to be right and this inyoung is well the general Greek term for it is T loss to Lee ology right the sense of looking towards where you're actually heading we can also look to Jung's distinction between the first and second half of life to see how he envisioned individuation as an entire life process so usually when we think of individuation we think of wholeness right being complete right but in the first half of life it is definitely not about being complete being psychologically balanced etc etc if anything in the first half of life your job is actually to be not imbalance right to be one sided to work on developing what Jung would call your superior function and to develop a strong ego that engages in the world which then becomes the foundation or strong enough container for you to deal and engage with the unconscious in the second half of life so for Jung the big crucial point is thirty-five right that's a bit scary for me and for my own personal reasons I would say that thirty-five really isn't the the mid age point now because I needed not to be 35 to be honest if anything if we're in prolonged education if we change careers 35 could be 40 now right so if you're you're not if you're at 35 you're not over the hill yet okay so thank goodness for that what do you do up until the point of 35 for young you go get an education right you build a career you establish a name for yourself right you plan your foot your flag in the world in some way shape or form you settle down all right probably not in London all right because the prices are astronomical all right you settle down you buy a house you settle down with a significant other maybe you start a family right these are the concerns the responsibilities of adulthood now what happens when you hit 35 right so after the 30 you know one day after you're 38 for the 35th birthday you're in trouble right because things are supposed to completely shift after that day obviously things are much more fluid than that but you begin to concern yourself with larger existential questions right you start to realize wow my life is not infinite it's finite right if anything I've got roughly 100 years right 100 years to define myself and make a difference right so is material gain all that matters right is there a life after this one and you can see how in the pursuit of these questions one may turn to more spiritual means or endeavors when again when looking for that potential meaning in life so what happens in the second half of life is you're actually less concerned about what society wants from you what it expects of you and you're more concerned about what you want for yourself right so there's an internal voice right an into an internal yearning that you're actually speaking towards now this is a very kind of simplistic division first half second half even with the Jungian within the Jungian world there's there's degrees right or different models so if you look at Eric Newman a very classical Jungian in the their origins in history of consciousness he actually breaks up this development into three stages Wow a bit more complex right where he symbolizes the first stages symbolized by the mother than the father and then the individual and then within the life lifespan there are two crisis points right one when you're transitioning between the mother to the father and then one where you're transitioning between the father to the individual right I mean okay so far okay excellent how do we define individuation well very simply for those of you who are more psychotherapy therapeutically minded it means basically making that which is unconscious conscious right by the way what will give you all these slides all right so you don't have to if you don't want to you don't have to take the the pictures they'll be given to you making that which is unconscious conscious and thereby expanding the personality right achieving greater degrees of consciousness of self-awareness right in terms of psychological types anyone familiar with young psychological types show of hands okay fantastic excellent you could frame individuation in terms of psychological types and really begin to see the interconnectedness of Jung's thinking right so you know that we have an attitude that is our kind of main go to either introversion or extroversion which is then complemented by one of our support or only superior function right and that could either be thinking feeling intuition or sensation individuation actually means then being able to activate right or to work on your auxiliary function your second function your tertiary function but most importantly your inferior function right that which is the complete opposite to you because in the inferior function you will begin to find the gap right the doorway that's been left open ie the doorway to the unconscious all right what else do we think about very generally when we think about individuation fulfilling and realizing your innate potential all right very interesting idea we'll expand on that now an actual definition from collected works volume seven this is from the relations between the ego and the unconscious the second edition 1934 so Jung writes individuation means becoming a single homogeneous being and insofar as individuality embraces our innermost last and incomparable uniqueness it also implies becoming one's own self we could therefore translate individuation as coming selfhood or self-realization now very interestingly James Hillman everyone here of James Hillman right American Jungian had a lot of issues actually with Jung's theory of individuation I mean first and foremost he critique Jung or this theory in saying that in its another myth that we just live by right and it becomes stagnant to a certain extent and if anything if we're looking at individual that's a structure it actually doesn't reflect reality where life is pleural fluid changing all the time right so more than anything it's it's imposing a stricter in a structure rather than reflecting the complexity of life but in his book the souls code he gives a very interesting example right he calls it the Acorn theory and nearly the Acorn theory is another way to say to say individuation in my estimation so what happens when you plant an acorn and you cultivate it right don't answer that because the answer is right here all right an acorn turns into a mighty oak tree right now like all trees it has the qualities of treena's right you have some roots here trunk some branches leaves foliage etc etc right but no two oak trees are ever the same right every oak tree will have something that is unique about it so extend that to this idea of individuation there may be a pattern to what individuation looks like but how that is experienced and lived is unique to each and every individual no path towards individuation will ever look the same when you look at them in detail although they may or may share structural and thematic similarities right so one thing that we actually all share in this room today is that we're all conducting an experiment right we are conducting an experiment on how to live a full and integral human life right that's the the kind of general sense of interconnectedness the the general pattern if you will but how we live that truth right how we go about conducting this experiment and what we achieve that will be different just as the destiny of the oak tree is already inscribed in the Acorn so the greatest version of you is already already written within you right that's a very nice romantic thought right you're Brady's potential is already inscribed in you and your job in life is actually to heed that call and to actualize and realize that fullest potential all right if you don't well shame on you all right shame on you shame on you all of you know because not only have you robbed yourself of the greatest version of who you are you've actually robbed society all right of your greatest contribution to its development and its proliferation right now that's actually a very interesting point and something I'm going to come back to throughout this lecture that when we're thinking about individuation it implies a relationship with the social right with society itself and usually when we think of individuation it's you know this is an often neglected aspect of the definition so individuation is not about you right and this is from psychological types 1921 in German 1923 in English individuation is a process of differentiation having for its goal the development of the individual personality since the individual is not only a single entity but also by his very existence presupposes a collective relationship the process of individuation does not lead to isolation but to an intense er and more universal collective solidarity all right okay so let's just kind of keep that in mind what this relationship to the social looks like to society we'll come back to that throughout the course of this lecture now what does developing the personality involve all right what does individuation actually look like well first and foremost it means opening yourself up to the unpredictability and the existence of the unconscious right we need to accept that we're actually not the Masters in our own house that for every consciousness we make we have to realize that there might be something unconscious right excuse me a deep and dynamic unconscious that shapes our decision-making and actually shapes who we are so if we are always thinking right that choice was mine alone right we're not necessarily looking at how our emotions might have factored into that particular course of action and equally how what we did might reflect a pattern of interacting from a previous relationship right that we're not really aware about so the past is still intervening in the present in some way shape or form right so acknowledging the unconscious also means that we need to be willing to hear how the unconscious wishes to speak to us right of how it aims to communicate with us this is usually through dreams right fantasies daydreams slips of the tongue and also synchronicities right so what is the synchronicity anyone know what a synchronicity is yes yes yes and a causal pardoning of events basically where an inner reality is met by a physical manifestation of that reality almost simultaneously right so we're almost being hit over the head twice there's something internal psychological within you you're thinking about it and lo and behold all of a sudden as you're thinking about it boom right there's an object or some kind of transpiring events that will bring that psychological reality to the forefront even more so all right we'll come back to synchronicities now sometimes embedded within dreams are signals that one's life trajectory is not as it should be or that a new possibility awaits if only the individual would recognize and heed what the unconscious may be showing him or her equally through your dreams there might be warning signs that are coming right that you're actually not on the correct path and one example I love giving is of one of Jung's patients who dreams of a train all right so he's running this guy's running needing to catch the train desperately desperately and he's already you know he's always being stopped in some way shape or form he gets to the train station he sees that he's missed the train right it's actually leaving but he realizes that train is actually running on a huge s-curve right and that's actually moving quite fast so what he realizes is that once the train hits the first corner what's going to happen it's gonna topple over right and what this man doesn't realize is that he's the Train right the train is actually signifying him and his life trajectory that he was climbing too fast he wanted too much out of life right he was always thinking of advancing advancing advancing without realizing the detriment to his own psychological health and really also to his own personal limitations right so the dream is a warning it's warning that if you keep going on like this you're going to break down in some way shape or form ie the train is gonna fall over all right and this is exactly what happens to this particular individual right so we need to be open to the ways in which our dreams might be communicating something about our life trajectory to us and also you know many of us want control over our lives like I wanted control over my life all right go to university finish be a chef eat lots of food party alright whatever the dream was back that but your best laid plans may not work out the way you think they will or as they should but it's exactly what you might need at that particular time and that's very tough to let go of isn't it right that you think yes I've got it all planned out and then you say it to yourself I didn't expect that happening and then you've got to deal with it all right so there has to be a certain flexibility in how we live our lives especially when we're dealing with this idea of a deep and dynamic unconscious all right this also means accepting that rationality isn't the only way we can come to making a decision right I don't want to necessarily say irrationality because there's some negative connotations to a rationality or that just means stupidity right it's not necessarily the right way to do things you might find it more helpful to frame it as a rationality or non rationality right that are simple small minds are just too stupid to see the the larger logic of the unconscious and how things are being pattern out right so we may think it's actually a logical right a rational but actually it's just completely rational right we're just not able to quite see it yet now what else does individuation entail isolation isolation right very difficult one Jung gives us a great example in memories dreams reflections and this in particular is his confrontation with the unconscious and this occurs after his break with Freud and in more general terms his break with the psychoanalytic movement now up until this point he was consumed by the concerns of the first half of life right what was he doing at that time he was establishing a name for himself right via his contribution to the cyclic movement he was the first president of the IPA the International psychoanalytical Association yeah Freud gave him tons of admin and editorial duties right as part of it and he hated it right and he was bad at it right we need to kind of get this illusion of Jung out of her head that he was brilliant at everything right everything he touched no he was a horrible administrator right absolutely horrible so editorial duties traveling he was writing lecturing right very busy man all in the pursuit of his goals right the goals of the first half of life it doesn't mean that during his confrontation with the unconscious that he stopped doing these things in some way shape or form he obviously continued but when he had that drop right that delving into his unconscious it was really a period of internal journeying right of looking inwards and to facilitate this you know what what do you need to do just leave me alone alright you need to isolate yourself right you have to give yourself the right environment or container in which this process actually develops so in 2017 I was actually fortunate enough to meet Andreas young right and Reis young is the grandson of CG young and I was lucky enough to to be at the family home before they turned the bottom floor into a museum and he conveyed to me the fact that whenever the grandchildren visited young at his home they were under strict instruction never to bother him right you might see him working in the corner there do not approach hey you do not approach until you're a beckoned right or until he's ready and I think if anything that just signals the isolation right the incubation the container that he was building for himself while this kind of psychological process of thinking feeling etc was actually occurring in him all right now isolation for young also meant that he had to give himself time and permission to play right and equally give yourself time and permission to play when he was delving into the unconscious this very difficult period he begins to play childhood games that he hasn't played for years right he begins to play with stones again he shaped stones he draws he sails he writes right he explores the unconscious in written form in the black books which are then translate translated but transferred right into text an image to what we now know as the red book right so it's a period of deep introspection and mourning all right that's really important he's mourning a loss as well because by this point he had lost everything at least professionally that he had worked for right and this was made all the more difficult because he actually took a risk to back Freud and the cyclic movement because before this he was actually you know pretty well well-known psychiatrist working at one of the most important psychiatric institutions in the world at that time which the Burgos the mental institution right so isolation is a necessary part of individuation and it can be very hard for us to spend time with ourselves and with our own thoughts alright and what Jung is saying is that what actually needs to be okay with oneself right you need to be able to face that within yourself to ask difficult questions of yourself but also to ask whether your values align with those of the collective because usually there is a mismatch between what you feel is right and what the collective feels is right so let's give you a quick example how many of you show of hands work for an organization a midsize to a large organization whoo yeah tough one sorry about that you might enjoy it actually don't know that so a typical scenario you're at your meeting right with your manager and everyone is just laughing at your managers jokes Oh Jim Jessica ah ha ha ha ha that's so funny that's brilliant tell me again all right all right makes me sick a little bit but anyways right so you're at this particular meeting now in the midst of all this kind of you know jovial interaction the manager says this is the new plan this is the course of action we're actually taking and everyone is dutifully just joining things down yes yes yes must do this right these are the action points involved who's going to be doing this delegating the work and you might be the only one in the room who actually starts thinking for a second hold the phone all right what is actually going on here all right do I really think this is the right thing to do right and a conflict actually might begin to emerge now you might not raise their hand and say completely I disagree with you you're all idiots we're not doing this right because you have to preserve yourself to a certain extent but you might actually begin to raise your hand and say listen can we just talk about this first right before we decide on this particular course of action can't we just open a space for discussion right and what usually happens everyone just gives you the evil eye yeah God you again all right and you're literally scapegoated you've become the black sheep of the group why because you were just had what the strength right or character that you just wanted to say something to stop this herd mentality in this momentum going in a certain direction and what happens then at your annual review right they write down you're not a team player all right you just didn't get that raise this year because guess what you're no team-player be your obstructive all right so it's a very very difficult and challenging situation because as much as we probably want to identify with that you know black sheep mentality of someone who can think outside of a herd a herd or a group we actually need relationships right we need meaningful connection with people and when people actually other us and and disidentify with us in some way shape or form that's that's that's really tough all right so we need to be recognized and valued for what we actually bring to the table we then might start asking very difficult questions of ourselves should I just shut my mouth alright next time something comes along so just shut my mouth should I go along with it and just tell me you know or just do sorry what Jim and Jessica tells me to do right just be part of the team am i weird for questioning a particular motive or a particular course of action and maybe that course of action is completely against your moral principles and values right but then do you just do it right to squash this feeling if you will so that you can maintain your position and standing in the company and ultimately to realize the goals of the first half of life right which is young what is young what young is actually telling you to do alright so it's a tough one to call it's one that has to be assessed by a case-by-case basis all right the last thing I want to hear read on the news on Tuesday there's been an influx of resignations in the Greater London area and um they're all connected because they all went to the weekend University talk on Sunday right that's a disaster for me right but the point here is that isolation a stepping outside the herd mentality is part of the individuation process right we cannot shy away from these moments of introspection as we challenge convention and work hard to divest ourselves of a herd mentality and that example I gave you is really employed in this next point right fidelity to the law of one's own being right be true to what your values are and unapologetically maintain your own personal integrity and perhaps in an industry or an environment where integrity is actually in decline right I'll give you a great example of it it's Jerry Maguire right people might think wow he's gonna give us a really artsy foreign film to think about and go watch no go watch Jerry Maguire right what does Jerry Maguire actually do does anyone remember if you've seen the film what's that Jerry Maguire yes yes that's part of it you complete me right some great one-liners from Jerry Maguire so basically what he does he works at a really prestigious agency a sports agency and he comes to realize that wow we're not really treating our athletes very well how do we change this we have fewer athletes we make less money but we build stronger relationships with our athletes with the people were working with right and everyone's applauding him right on the on the persona side of it on the face of it and then he gets fired all right there you go Jerry Maguire and individuation you never thought you'd hear it right now let me make this clear right maintaining your integrity and working against the herd doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aiming to contribute to collective life in some way shape or form right and young really says a lot about this avoiding individualism right what is individualism individualism is the pursuit of individual rather than common or collective goals or interests right you can understand it as egoism you can understand it as a severe form of narcissism right that ultimately what people are seeking are their own self-interests right so it's almost an abnormal degree of selfishness Jung makes a really important distinction between individualism versus individuation all right so he writes individualism means deliberately stressing and giving prominence to some supposed peculiarity rather than to collective considerations and obligations but individuation means precisely the better and more complete fulfillment of the collective qualities of the human being so crucial to individuation then is a contribution to improving society in some way shape or form what is an internal journey of self-discovery needs to be translated into cultivating the greater good in society right so the cycle of realization goes something like this you go to therapy right you engage in a Jungian pathway if you will of self-discovery you benefit greatly from it right and once you come out of that you start to realize and you look around Wow other people are suffering as well right so this needs to be translated into you doing something for that larger society and what you meet you know what you may begin to realize is that actually a lot of them the stuff I was working on right a lot of the things that I was actually hung up about I'm not alone I'm actually sure this with with a lot of people that people are actually having the same hang-ups the same issues now you could be an uber Jungian right and you could say wow man that's archetypal right that there's kind of this collective essentialist structuring principle binding everyone together but equally you could just see it as something structural to society right that in the process of socialization itself we are bound together right because you know that there is something if you will that is contributing to this overall sense of sadness so what do you do for post onions like Andrew Samuels this basically leads to political action right so you move from a concern for yourself and improving your own life to improving the life of others through rectifying right activism if you will those issues in society that have actually caused those disparities all right that has actually caused that sadness right so you move from improving your own life to improving the life of others through political action and that's why Andrew argues that analytical psychology and politics are actually interconnected you can't have one without the other and individuation ultimately is a deeply political act so unless their periods of isolation or offset by periods of emergence from that very isolation right Toynbee calls this withdrawal and return right but equally we can see this in Campbell's description of the hero's journey as found in the hero with a thousand faces so every hero psychologically leaves the safety of this right looks fantastic right and once we heed the call to adventure right we encounter great feats that we have to conquer right more journeying bottling the great beast right whatever that may be right defeating the Beast winning the treasure heart - and hard to attain a new dispensation a new insight and this is often the neglected bit actually bringing that back to the betterment of society right so you've seen this little picture this person is not alone alright there's actually other people involved okay so an important step to emphasize in the hero's journey and indeed the individuation process is to actually heed the call to adventure or stated another way to actually make a conscious moral choice right now why is the hero of the hero's journey so important to understanding aspects of young psychology well it's basically this we actually have to identify with this heroic journey or narrative to actually muster enough energy to get out the door right to actually start this process to actually take this risk right because this actually is a risk and look how great that looks there right so I try and move too much because the microphone but see that house right that's my house and right there that's not a neighbor that's just my detached garage alright nobody's around me this is a beautiful beautiful setting right why am I actually gonna go on this journey why do identify with the hero that actually gives me at the energy to pursue this risk it's because we begin to realize that the awards and accolades we dream about in our fantasies right in the safety of our own home in the privacy of our own psyche that actually isn't any better right there it's not better then the rewards and recognition we can achieve out there in the real world right that's where the flip begins that's where we begin to actually heed the call all right so in cw17 Jung writes personality can never develop unless the individual chooses his or her own way consciously with more deliberation not only the calls emotive necessity but conscious moral decision must lend its strength to the process of building the personality all right the point here that there has to be a conscious choice to pursue the course of action and that the decision itself isn't an easy one because it will inevitably entail attention between what society deems best for you ie personality number one and what you deem is best for your own soul personality number two all right as we've said it's a heavy burden to take on because it places the onus on you to choose right so in the immortal immortal worlds of jean-paul sartre you have a radical responsibility to choose and I think about a radical responsibility to choose and and this is not Sartre when all accounts are settled only you are the one responsible for the salvation of your own soul all right if you take one thing away from this lecture is that life is a risk right you have to risk the safety afforded by the personas that we built for ourselves in order to come closer to the self right so realizing the self war if you put it another way life is about showing up right and Jung's just initial or a sorry important contribution is that for goodness sake just show up right now another element in this quote that I want to talk about then we're going to take a quick break this idea of necessity right that you're compelled to do something this feeling of necessity or vocation can be extremely overpowering and overwhelming and I'm sure many of you have felt that in some way shape or form in your own lives so just to coincide with the break take five minutes if you're more introverted just perhaps think of a time where you felt compelled right to do something that you couldn't completely explain rationally or if you're more extroverted turn to someone close to you beside you and maybe just share that instance where you felt that sense of vocation and necessity right alright let's take five minutes a sense of vocation alright I don't never feel that sense of vocation show of hands a sense of vocation or of necessity feel fantastic alright quite a few people okay excellent so have you ever felt that sense of being compelled to follow a particular path the career that was not of your parents choosing alright that's an important run right okay well okay fantastic you know a compulsion to travel to a specific place but not necessarily realizing why you actually want to be there alright that's a very interesting one okay to go to a particular school right rather than you know perhaps a more prestigious one all right some of you there right or an important one to leave one profession for a less lucrative one all right all right fantastic we're totally on the same page okay now vacation is an irrational factor that calls an individual to emancipate himself or herself from the herd and from well-worn paths and again this doesn't mean a perpetual break with society but actually to reimagine how we engage with society were to re-engage with society in a different way that doesn't contravene with the necessities of your soul right ie that which you need to nourish the specificity of your own individuality the feeling sorry there you go the feeling of vocation is an objective psychic experience okay sometimes you feel you just can't get away from it right as much as you try to run you just can't get away from it so everywhere you turn you're reminded of it and during these peer it's you're more likely to experience what young would call synchronicities awti like we've said before hints from both the inner and the outer world working in unison right conspiring if you will to bring you to a particular point or to make a certain point more poignant to you right that a course of action needs to be taken right so for example right let's take the example of needing to change professions of feeling the compulsion to change professions and you're thinking about it you're thinking about it for a year maybe two years and you actually start researching what you actually have to do to retrain right you know that you'll have to go to another school it might take another two three years there'll be a loss of money involved etc etc so at every point you begin to move forward you kind of convince yourself to step backwards right now let's say you're it's a day you're looking into you know what the possibilities of retraining might be and your bit sick of it you walk into the town center right just to clear your head and what's in the town center on that very day a stole from a school where you could actually do that retraining right all right the world is hitting you on the head like are you dumb or something are you daft alright you know you there's an internal necessity of wanting to do it there's obviously fear right which is you know you can acknowledge that we all experience it but then there's that added layer of that synchronicity right this is something you really really need to do now let's say that you're retraining to be a social worker right a very noble profession and that currently you're a corporate lawyer which is potentially a very noble profession right now depending depending alright depending on where you're standing you might actually say well actually you know that that's that Social Work position it is fantastic that's where we should put our value but if you kind of just think what your knee-jerk reaction might be right I would probably baton say that many would go towards or say that more value is placed on that position as a corporate lawyer why you're just making more money right you're making the bills man you're making the coin all right you can pay for things all right you can have luxury etc etc etc but what Young's description of individuation reminds us and what it's telling us to focus on there's no Sara Lee not necessarily what others might deem is a success or what is successful but what you deem a success to be and as we said it's easier said than done we have to take into consideration the demands of the first half of life yet equally if we keep rejecting the call right if you keep getting hit multiple times over the head right with this call to adventure then jung is saying neurosis sickness psychological imbalance actually stems from not heeding the call to this particular journey right if you're always making the rational choice or the conventional choice then for Jung a symptom actually might arise right or could take the form of a series of very vivid dreams and perhaps even a sudden proneness to accidents at work right something is you know tripping you up quite a bit so this acts as a signal that the psyche itself is not in balance and that one is actually not following a course of action that best reflects your talents and the requirements of what you actually need right to foster your own individuality there are however some important dangers or inherent dangers I would say to thinking of your life in this way right it's all not you know roses when you're thinking of individuation and I want to kind of turn to that now right so as we've said let's just start off where we've left off this idea or feeling of vocation all right now we said it's really difficult to follow one's own truth it can lead to alienation to riddick to ridicule as well and it's not an easy process and it becomes really easy to idealize it right and let's not do that right it is definitely difficult it takes a lot of work right a lot of sacrifice and a lot of self-reflection is actually involved and sometimes we just can't get there because of the sacrifice involved right you might have children to take care of right that that job is a steady paycheck you just can't do that right so we have to actually respect and honor that as well individuation right means facing things about yourself that you may not want to face and opening yourself up to the challenges that others wouldn't dare confront and these challenges might be framed in terms of Jung's description of the personified archetypes that you meet along the way or along the path of individuation so that includes acknowledging shadow right the persona the mask that we fall in love with and how we deal with the world and really the bridge to the archetypal self the anima or anima the image of Volterra T within right now there's also a real potential for inflation right some people just love being individuated right they love it they love it and you can see it all right they just love the sense of arrogance right the sense of pride the sense of superiority all right and that can actually lead people to to treat people not very well actually right and what's their excuse they treat someone like garbage and say oh I'm getting in touch with my shadow right now all right it's just part of the process oh man you're just being a jerk stop it right so some people actually use it as an excuse now young would say that some inflation is actually inquirer required all right it's a necessary part of the process but at some point you need to dis identify with that because ultimately if we keep going with it then individuation just becomes a tagline right it becomes another persona right it becomes another mask that we put on to engage with the world right something that we just put on and we're now second big point is individuation and the latest project right now young does describe a natural process of individuation right that you know we enter into this world we may not frame it as individuation but life happens we progress through important key markers and stages right in our development but usually individuation is achieved in the context of Jungian therapy right of Jungian analysis so a caveat before I begin this I'm going to give you a very exaggerated example right but I'm doing this to actually make a point right which then forms a foundation if you will a further discussion and critical thinking all right so how does how much does individuation cost all right how much does therapy actually cost now a few thing about my numbers and estimates here so first off classical psychoanalysis or and/or Jungian therapy they will demand four to five sessions a week but it's actually not the reality now okay there are other trainings other modalities other forms of psychotherapy that you can take that won't demand that level of commitment that actually realized it's just not possible right so in a lot of therapies you'll see maybe two to three sessions a week right as the the the base minimum in some therapy so it might be only once a week all right that's absolutely fine there are therapies out there to kind of fit the hectic lifestyle that we live in but I've just chosen four just to kind of you know put the extreme example out there fifty quid a session I know of good friends and colleagues who charge more I know of good friends and colleagues who charge less right who are also therapists by the way I'm not a therapist but if we look at that 50 it's just kind of a baseline estimate and it's really important to know too that many therapists will actually offer a sliding scale of fees all right so what that basically means is that you're let's say you know not earning a great wage right now or that you're a student right the what you negotiate with your therapist is that okay I'm at this time of life right now 25 is the amount that we agree on but once your financial situation begins to improve 50 is my fee right so just to let you know a caveat there is that kind of flexibility right but again I'm giving you an extreme example right fifty pounds per session four sessions a week that's already 200 pounds additional right that we're looking for per week right yeah potentially potentially or you have to have enough disposable income right so 200 per week times four weeks in a month roughly but it's 800 pounds per month right if we look to the entire year I've given you 49 weeks how did I come to that number 52 weeks in a year one week for Christmas give your therapist a break for two weeks 49 weeks in the year all right 49 times 298 hundred pounds per year okay now some people may think it's you know affordable some people less affordable but I think the the point here it's is that it's not an insignificant amount of money okay it's a considerable financial investment I do not have ninety eight hundred pounds in my pocket right now although I wish I did okay so we can all agree it's it's not chump change all right now some people might counter that and say well actually Kevin do we put a price tag on our mental health and our individual development that's actually a really important point if people want to invest that money and have that might to invest in themselves fantastic right I think the the you know and actually to be fair when people begin therapy and then issues of money actually come up you know that resistance is actually a way a doorway into looking at the sort of doorway in to looking at the transference and countertransference that money often becomes the excuse of not to continue therapy and it actually might be hiding something else that's not about the money at all okay so money is psychologically very very powerful but again the reason why I'm doing this right it's just to kind of expose perhaps some of the the assumptions behind individuation that we're not actually looking at right now as one of our colleagues said here is individuation only for those who are rich or for those with enough disposable income yung himself grew up poor right from a very poor peasant family but how and when do his fortunes change yes when he marries into the Rosenbach family right the second wealthiest family in Switzerland at the time right how did they make their money they made their money through agricultural machinery in the first instance and then making very smart business decisions and investments right and one investment they actually made was into not that I have won a Swiss watch alright Swiss watches and timepieces so when Young is using that position timepiece to conduct his his word association tests that's Emma's right that's from Emma's family right now take this one step further right perhaps extreme for for some people but let's go there can we say that Young's drop into the unconscious was made possible because of Emma's family's wealth right that he could do it because he could afford to do it right he still made his own money right he still went to see his therapies but everything else right is ticking along in the background so if I'm struggling to make ends meet am I going to be reflecting on the ways in which the self manifested in my life this week right perhaps yes alright for some more likely I would say perhaps not ideally be focusing on paying rent right rent or the mortgage buying food taking care of my loved ones right so I'm not belittling the theory of intubation itself or the important role and place of Jungian analyst right far from it I have a high degree of respect for these ideas and for the profession in general but again I want to play devil's advocate and to expose some of the unexamined assumptions we make when we're actually discussing individuation right it's not just about individual superiority right at the personal level that I can take it that I can traverse this very difficult path and that makes me elite in some way shape or form it actually boils down to financial elite ISM as well okay I also want to stress by highlighting the highlighting this example is the hortence of the mundane right and how we actually should knock the mundane right you know there's a really famous book written by a young and colleague named John BB and it's called integrity in depth right but I would also say integrity in the mundane right what does individuation actually look like for each and every individual right so those mundane responsibilities why can't that be individuation right why does individuation have to have that sense of grandeur and those heroic qualities that we usually attribute to it right it's great for the ego right to think that we're actually doing something heroic all the time but it's just not necessarily the case and perhaps it's more about reframing the narrative and how we actually see it so it's more about our ability to see the heroic in the mundane right and one thing I really want to hammer home today is that maybe just individuation is the everyday write it is the mundane it is the ordinary write the process also as I said is highly subjective depending on the person ie how each person lives out those core themes or steps that they attributed that may be attributed to the individual process and really I want to emphasize the importance of respecting and honoring that variants right so I'll give you an example someone suffers from agoraphobia right fear of being in crowded spaces and this person works really hard with a therapist therapist perhaps without a therapist right but with family friends with support one day that person is able to actually step into a Market Square right that's individuation for that person who are we to knock that who are we to say otherwise right so it's just again to hammer home the point that what individuation looks like is going to be very different for people and we actually need to respect that all right so it doesn't have to be that grand gesture that will leave an imprint on the history of humanity all right now third young valorizes the individual over collectivity and submission to convention and this is commendable right so it kind of goes something like this you know you are the maker of your Destinee by the sheer force of your personality your tenacity your will you will be able to achieve great things if only you put your mind to it right see believe achieve right and in an ideal world that sounds absolutely fantastic it's very romantic right the sounds fantastic but it might actually ignore the important role socialization plays in shaping our personalities and identities right because let's be honest everyone we do not begin life on the same playing field yeah we do not write all these ideals about being able to achieve what you want right be to reach your potential it assumes that we're actually all equal and I'm sorry we're not we do not begin on the same footing and this is just intersectionality right of looking at gender race class nationality sexual orientation ability and disability okay so that's really important factor to bring in and I think any advancement in Jung's theory of individuation needs to kind of take this into account fourth write is individuation a singular heroic endeavor right this is certainly part of the mythology all right so in memories dreams reflections quote unquote Jung's autobiography it's not right but let's go with it because there are similar lines of thinking throughout his psychology he writes this my life is a story of the self realization of the unconscious everything in the unconscious seeks outward manifestation and the personality to desires to evolve out of its unconscious conditions and to experience itself as a whole in the end the only events worth telling are those where the imperishable world erupted into this transitory one that is why I speak chiefly achieve Lee of inner experiences now this is the this is the tagline all other memories of travels people and my surroundings have paled beside these interior happenings all right everything else has lost importance by kin Harrison outward circumstances are no substitute for inner experience now this is part of the mythology of young right as this kind of heroic guru scholars like Allen C Elms some of Sean Dasani right who was perhaps the the most important Jungian historian alive today they've really exposed that you know at the heart of this even if you look at memories dreams reflections Jung had additional chapters about his relationships to other people right that they were meant to go in but because of various editing and pressures these were actually taken out all right but the point to emphasize here if we just go strictly on this quotation right where we're actually only seeing other people in terms of our own individual development I mean that's a pretty shitty thing to do to be honest all right does it do justice to the extent to which Jung's own life was shaped by other people right the support his wife provided in light of Jung's infidelity all right yeah the camaraderie that William James and others provided after the break with Freud the numerous friendships he shared with correspondents followers etc etc right and the main thrust of it is no it doesn't right it doesn't do justice to the role of relationship in that individuation process so I think and I'm not alone right people like Paulie Jung eysan i send it off way before me have said things like this it's more helpful and relevant to see individuation as a relational process ie that we are nourished by being in relationship with other people right when archetypes are not dealt with right for young they're actually projected onto figures in the real world but this doesn't mean that we disrespect those people right these people are not just hosts right or empty bodies that lead to our own individual development so we have to respect these individuals who possess the very qualities that allow us to work through our personal psychology right they matter they have their own lives they have their own hopes their own fears and in turn they will be implicating others in their own individual journey right so what we actually end up with is a network of relationships right an intricate web of activeness that is really summarize so succinctly by this image of interest net all right so if we look at this so it's obviously a web with some dewdrops on it right let's say we're positioned here because I like being a big raindrop all right I like the idea of it so I'm placed here right and it's a unique position but I'm connected to the entire hole and if I look at this right where I'm position actually my image is reflected in all others right and the you know the reason why I'm uniquely or I'm unique is because I'm positioned here but in this larger web of interconnectedness and relationship and I think that's really a strong image of what individuation actually is in practice all right so individuation is by extension not unitary it necessitates and implicates others even in therapy right in the clinical setting you're not alone right because individuation is actually facilitated through what through a relationship through a relationship with another person right and that's the interaction between the therapist and the patient and listen analysis and however you want to call it so having established the importance of relationships to individuation an important and final question to ask today is whether fostering such relationships is still possible in a highly connected and digital world where integral relationality seems to be on a decline all right it seems we prefer to interact with the devices that we actually interact better with our devices rather than others right being in relationship with others and being in relationship to the physical world around us now as we've said individuation and Jung's time meant being more attuned with nature as he was and as many romantics were and being able to escape for periods of reflection and this is still possible right I mean we still go on vacation right don't we right we still go hiking camping yes yeah yeah okay but what's the difference even with no reception we'll take our devices with us right and even when we're doing our best to spend time with our loved ones we are checking our emails because we know if we don't clear up some of those emails by the time you get back you're gonna have 300 you're gonna have to clear them up then right I mean looking at my phone I'm being persecuted I've got three new messages right and once this is done I'm gonna open this up I'm gonna look at those emails right and probably scratch my head and say I can deal with it until Tuesday so there is the the real difference okay we're never completely switched off and it may be the case actually that technology itself has an important part to play in shaping how personality development is facilitated and at how it evolved into the future right maybe it's just a part of who we are now and we have to work with it rather than against it and an important point to note it's not to say that technology social networking or you know virtual platforms are the enemy and that they don't actually foster greater relationship and people coming together so if you take this event for instance right a show of hands how many people found out about this event either through social media or some other kind of virtual platform right that's fantastic okay a credit right to to nyle and his team how many people found out about this event through a flyer that was staplegun to a billboard right or a post or just a physical fly or even fantastic nyle and your team you've done your job all right you've got that you've got that staple gun you just out there putting on the street fantastic okay but that just proves the point all right that at its best social media is very powerful right and it can be a platform that actually brings people together so that we can be in greater relationship and in discussion with each other all right but are the developments and how we communicate so via Twitter snapchat right I don't even know what snapchat is but the kids tell me it's important okay emojis likes these very kind of simplistic ways to convey emotion all right are these the most conducive for cultivating the level of depth and understanding that are so central to individuation right it's like overcoming this overall sense of disenchantment and moral malaise that has been made all the more prevalent by the worst successes of a neoliberal society all right so in general people are sad right people are sad because people don't come together and we have a collective responsibility to do something about it the digital worlds we've created are part of the problem and a reason why people aren't relating integrally to one another equally however these digital worlds can be part of the solution but it's up to us to define the parameters of how this actually can be right how it's actually going to look and this is my final thought if one thing remains clear Jung's theory of individuation is important now more than ever because of the very context in which we currently find ourselves all right thank you very much great so I think nyle is gonna come around another nyle right it's going to come around now with the microphone I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have equally happy just to go home as well but I'm here I'm in a relationship with you right now yes sir yeah that's really interesting there have been papers written on the the links between Carl Jung and Carl Rogers so I don't have the reference on me specifically but if you email me and you can get my email well via the slides or nyle I will give you the reference to the paper and if I can find the paper I'll send it to you but though I don't know enough about Carl Rogers to comment but some work actually has been done there right so there's definitely something there yes yes sir right beside you yeah it's it's interesting it's a problem that you know a lot of post unions have dealt with right in the sense that if you think of the self right this essentialist notion of the self this image of our greatest wholeness of what we have the potential to be that actually drives individuation then technically speaking there's something other than you that's actually moving the process along but equally in Jung's later work you know he puts more and more emphasis actually on the ego and the relationship of the ego to the self in the sense that you know even if there is this kind of teleological pole towards your self development there is also that kind of sheer act of will to decide right and as we go further into Jung's thinking he's putting more and more emphasis actually on the ego and the role of consciousness in the individuation process right because ultimately if we're thinking of the thus often individuation even the term the self doesn't encapsulate what that totality actually is that in itself is only an image right and perhaps in later Jung in thinking it's more actually it's more to the point to see this as an evolving process rather than being driven by some archetype if you will right and there's a lot been has been written about you know more constructivist approaches to understanding Jung's theory of individuation so I would actually recommend in the handbook of Jungian psychology there are some good chapters by Warren Coleman is a very respected essay P analyst and also Murray Stein right very respected and elder young and analyst who spends a lot of his time well splits its time between the u.s. and Zurich as well Wow lots of questions there's quite a few here in this middle bit Niall can we hit those and then we'll go back and then forward again so thank you for that you should be joining the MA actually is my first is my first gut reaction so the question was is there actually any statistical evidence to show that what happens in young in therapy is actually more effective than other modalities that have been accepted let's say by the NHS more widely like CBT there was one article published by Hassler REO SL er right looking at the efficacy of Jungian therapy and actually how it might save money in the long run so again if you email me right I will send the paper directly to you because I have it right so there is evidence there is a growing body of evidence it's still scant right but it's certainly there especially as people begin more and more to realize you know some of the cracks within CBT because it's been with us actually for a while now right and although people you know are able to adopt for a certain period people come back for more sessions and if people come back for more sessions then technically it's not as cost-effective mm-hmm right so we have quite a few in that middle position so one colleague there and then I do want to go to the Bach and then we'll move back to the front yes this gentleman and then the the lady just behind yes you yes sure yeah yeah yeah I mean there are periods where we just need to recharge don't we right and symbolically for the young yen's oh sorry the question was you know I've kind of emphasized individuation as being a network of relationships so how does that how do we then kind of integrate this emphasis on isolation as well because there seems to be potentially a contradiction there and I would say you know the again it's that kind of hero's journey of withdrawal and return that there are periods where we need that isolation right where you know literally nothing is better than mother right that's something difficult has happened in your life what where do we usually retreat either to our parents home or someone who symbolizes mother right where we can be cared for or someone cooks for us you know someone washes all our dishes sounds great right and and that's the the period of recharging of listening to having a sympathetic ear right but there comes a point where we can't stay there and that's the rub so if we look at that you know that hero's journey again that's symbolized by the temptation of the beast and being defeated by that beast right that it's so comfortable there right but it's not a oneness that is born through difficulty it's a myopic oneness right it's its overall encompassing oneness so even though those periods are really important we have to actually take the risk of going out in the world again and that means actually relating to people again right so I think there is a place that you know there are periods where we need to be by ourselves and we have to find moments to actually be by ourselves but equally we can't completely shut the world out either and it's that kind of duality in young of the opposites of trying to find a balance between opposites as well okay thank you yes hey hey so there's two parts of the question so so the the first one again can your mommy with the first one was yeah yeah yeah that's very interesting question actually I mean yeah it would be horrendous if everyone was individuated right because nothing would get done absolutely nothing are done because most of them are intuitive anyways I think that's really important I think there's a place for everyone right in society regardless of again how lofty those ambitions might be and I think by extension then I would probably agree with what you're saying in the sense that not everyone can be individuated but individuation can look so different for so many people and you know in terms of the herd mentality I think intrinsic and young and really Freud as well that there is a very negative estimation of the group and of group life and you know obviously even during the time of the bond people were disagreeing with him so this idea of herd mentality of group psychology you know yeah you're right that probably has to be some rethinking about that and perhaps in light of social psychology as well what I say that you know some herd mentality is necessary that's an interesting way to put you know Rousseau social contract right that we have to kind of come together to a certain extent to live and have collective values together so it's an interesting question don't know if I have an answer but just to say to emphasize again that you know group life is actually really important to young and it's an aspect that gets hidden or lost in this you know constant emphasis on on individuality right of emancipating oneself from the herd right but what young really wants to avoid is just blindly following for the sake of blindly following right I mean if you're conscious and you reflect and you feel that you know the interests are the group are oh it's the best way forth and by all means put your eggs in that basket and go forward but it's that kind of lack of reflection that I think young is really you know has a real issue with right and your second question yeah sure sure sure yeah that's what I think that's a really good point um so the the question is is individuation only possible in a global network society where certain professions actually exist right so the answer to that is it's very interesting question when young discusses individuation he actually turns to religion and religious development quite a bit right and he looks to the the the deeds the the lives of religious leaders as a framework for individuation so i think the answer to that yeah how interesting it's another talking of itself so you know the the question is just to elaborate on this idea of synchronicity and whether it necessarily entails the realm of the esoteric because I think if it entails the realm of the esoteric and what you're saying there is that you know people will just drop off because you don't have that kind of scientific validity and initially Jung was actually you know at pains to link it to - Ryan's pair of psychological experiments all right that you know if someone is conducting experiment I'm looking there's a barrier between let's say yourself and me all right well you're looking at certain cards you pull them out right and my job is to guess what shape it actually is you know based on a certain number of shapes that are actually in the deck and they found that initially when I actually started the experiment I was more engaged and excited about it ie I wanted to see that connection my hit total was actually quite significant but as I got bored and I moved along right further further experiment then the actual correlation became less and less and the whole point of it is that you know you're more prone to seeing synchronicities once you understand what a synchronicity actually is and part of what Jung was saying was you know as well as that if you kind of look at justice statistical averages what's really important are the anomalies right it's not the things that actually prove the theory it's the things that actually challenged it and these are the things that we should be looking at but also when you look at those synchronicities his argument was that they're still above the statistical level of chance right so they actually can't be completely ignored and I think through synchronicity and you know my colleague Roderick main argues this is that you know he was trying to redress and redefine what signs actually is and what's permissible within the the bounds of science saying a bit more about synchronicity this really interesting subject three main examples of a synchronicity first example literally the meeting of the inner and the outer right and he gives us this classic example the scarab patient right and her real name is because someone wrote a paper about it they'll come back to me all right but whoops but anyways there's a patient she comes to young very intellectual very smart smarter than him in many ways right but every time they're in therapy she makes an excuse to draw back and for young the only thing that will break her resistance is an irrational factor right ie something that will shake her out of this kind of adherence to rationality so she's conveying a dream too young in therapy about a jewel being given to her right a scarab right it's a scarab and as she was telling this dream young tells us that a scarab flies into the room right a rose chafer a beetle the closest thing to a scarab in those parts of Switzerland so young right grabs the bead oh right great eye hand coordination grabs libido gives it to her and says here's your scarab right now if you look at that symbolically what that means is that this person needed to rebirth right she needed that a rational factor in order to progress which is symbolized by that scarab so the first definition of a synchronicity is literally the meeting of the inner and the outer right the second definition of synchronicity is the the meeting of the inner and outer I would say across you've got geographical boundaries right and that the meeting of inner and outer is still relatively simultaneous right so Jung gives the example of Swedenborg right who's at a party right for away from his hometown and he sees these rageous sorry these fires raging in Stockholm right and as he's at this party he enters this trance state and he's able to relay what's happening and as news of what's happening comes in he can see that he was basically on the ball right so it's a meeting and interim outter but this time there's the issue of geographical space right that our distinction of space actually collapses right the last one is basically precognition right that you know you dream of something and literally it becomes true right so those are the three major definitions of synchronicity there's four and five as well right but I won't get into four and five today and we'll have to leave it for another time right thank you yes colleague yeah yeah you should join the MA as well my response so the question is how do we correlate or take into account you know the this kind of classical theory of individuation that I've put forward and more complex developments in the field of neuroscience right and my response to that is people are doing it but I'm definitely not one of them right so people like Greg Howe Genson several other colleagues Joe Cambre Jean Knox all all of you know all these individuals are concentrating on this specific area right of looking at analytical psychology and neuroscience I'm sure you've heard of Marx ohms as well right more from the perspective psychoanalysis so if you send me an email I will filter some papers your your way that's a great answer isn't it right I don't know but I know of the papers that know and I will afford them to you yes our colleagues here yes yeah social media that's interesting so the question from my colleague here is about the role of inflation in the individuation process and how we might kind of connect that with social media I'll take a stab at it inflation actually is necessary right because you're working towards something you have to be inflated you have to have an ideal image of what you actually want to become so you know from my personal example that professor who recognized me he became my image of the self right a literally father figure and I had to sense to have that initially right to want what he had right in many ways to in order to propel myself to get to that point so there is that sense of inflation that I actually I can do this you know I can be taking his position literally like killing the father right very eatable actually so there's that role of inflation where do we see inflation today I mean my knee-jerk reaction is actually to look at celebrity culture right and not necessarily what we take away from it but our fascination with celebrity culture because we look these individuals as symbols of the self right of things that we actually attain to can that propel people to to achieve what they achieved by would say yes to a certain extent again my reference point would be music right that there are many instances where a new and upcoming bear and will say I was in the mosh pit when two were playing right at summersault Festival and that propelled me to do what I'm doing today so I think there that there can be real real positives to that inflation but it has to again it has to be very controlled realistic inflation that there is that moment of you know participation mystique of connection right if you will but equally there has to be a going backwards and say listen I'm not Danny Carey I never will be god bless me you don't know that reference Danny carries the drummer from tool by the way untouchable but anyways alright yes so the question is you know there seems to be a lot of connections between some of the thinkers that we're looking at today and and the founder of psycho synthesis you said what was his name yeah sure sure sure sure I think it's you know good points to bring up because you know a lot of the historical work within our field is actually exposing the extent to which young may have taken ideas from other people right or that there was a large Amelia and Jung and Freud and whoever else were just kind of nodal points in this larger context of development and narration if you will I don't know of any papers that are written on the topic specifically but you know I would certainly welcome those developments and that kind of research just be again for whatever reason providence etc these founding fathers have this mythology behind them that have propelled them to the status and a large part of the academic work is to kind of knock that down right to say actually there were other people involved a large movement within the Jungian circles right now is to actually show the extent to which the women of any local psychology contributed and develop Jung's thinking and that literally he took ideas from other people without giving them do you know due respect right sure sure yeah and again you know it's not my area of expertise but you know knowing that there are people who are invested in this and can research it further I think the important role then is to you know for people like yourselves to without expertise to put it out there in the world and to shed for the light on it thank you yes yeah yeah mm-hmm sure that he was willing to die for it basically yeah so is the the question the the kind of you know the this thought experiment of how Socrates himself could have have avoided his fate and the kind of principles that he stood for right it's a good question I think people decide to do what they do right I mean he he obviously chose to drink that poisoned to make a point right because it was the center of his philosophy actually again I'm not the expert I do remember reading you know quite a bit during during my BA and sometimes that kind of integrity and sacrifice is exactly what's called for it's a very extreme example but the contexts are different as well right what perhaps was the only way to make a significant point and to make a stand back then may look somewhat different than than what it is now right it's hard to say how Socrates might have you know reworked that faith if you will to equally get his message out there without losing his life all right yeah interesting I'm not sure what Jung would have said Yeah right thank you yes [Music] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no it's a great question great comment so basically you know our colleague is exposing the fact that it's a very Eurocentric idea a very Western idea of individuation because if well I don't know if it wouldn't work it would have to take a different form right but you know I'm not well-versed in what those other pressures might be so you know from my own experience you know growing up in a Chinese family you're right there is more of an emphasis on the group life right of the good of the collective rather than the individual and it was that tension of obviously you know being a westerner Canadian grown up in a Canadian context but then also growing up a Chinese family that threw up a host of issues my response to the question again is that you know young took a lot of inspiration from Eastern thought right whether or not he did that responsibly is definitely up for questions so if you read people like JJ Clark he will look at Jung's Orientalism right the Eurocentric nature and really the racist nature of his thinking in many ways shape or forms but it doesn't mean that we can throw it we should throw the baby out with the bathwater right that it can't be developed in certain contexts we have colleagues working around the world right with young you know ideas and the very fact that Jung was open to Eastern thinking and philosophy meant that there was at least in his mind some form of connection whether or not he worked it out fully right is probably the you know no is the answer but it really is up to others then to kind of work with the ideas to extend the ideas the the concern is and I share your concern is that really does it just kind of lead to another form of appropriation right that's a it's a never you know another civilizing mission if you will of imposing Western or ideas on on the East and other cultures and again that's something that needs to be taken into account of I know from you know within psychoanalysis a lot of work has been done to question whether or not the the ITA's complex is universal right and looking how in different contexts there might be a Inklings or an idea that's the same but the exact configuration is actually different right so I think it's important just to kind of hold that tension and to take into consideration all the good things that you've noted about context because I think embedded in Jung's ideas themselves is an appreciation for context in history when we look at its distinction between the archetype and the archetypal image right the archetype in of itself is unknowable we only begin to know one aspect of the archetype through its manifestations in culture as archetypal images right thank you yeah you know a lot of sorry so the question is there seems to be many similarities potentially between Jung's idea of individuation and Maslow's idea of self-actualization all right and I know again especially within the psychology of religion people have compared those ideas I can give you the references right but I for one am not the person to answer it but I think you know if anything it seems that there is this kind of general concern with framing individual development I mean we can think of Erickson as well right and then seven stages of development so it seems people want to frame it that they're seeing something it's just kind of they might be doing it in very different ways or they're you know very similar ways but with small nuances here and there right and maybe it's worth quibbling about maybe it's not worth quibbling about but I think that's that's something embedded in the history of psychoanalysis itself it's because the the gains are so small right that that we keep quibbling and fighting about it so you know for instance comparisons between young and Klein there for the taking right but it's very hard to find a very good comparison and a robust one between those two thinkers so I know of you know a few book chapters in the psychology of religion that will discuss young and Maslow together and again if you email me I can give you the reference to that I don't think I have a scan of that one though yeah thank you yeah so the the question really is about individuation in the kind of more digital age and who actually the responsibility falls on to kind of promote a more integral idea of individuation that's actually out there all right is that about right yeah sure sure I think if anything it begins with us and how we interact with it because there is a lot of you know a lot of change that can happen a lot of power in social media itself but you know if we look at how we engage with it even on the level of social networking where I'm not sure if I'm allowed to mention any companies but will be put up or profile pictures what what picture do we put up the best one of ourselves that we can find right usually a selfie kind of like this you're right you're not going to put up a picture where you've got I know you just rolled out of bed right like rusty still in the middle there you know looking like that so there's already there a level of persona the way that we want the world to perceive us rather than who we really are and again it's going down individuals and groups about how they actually harness that power about bringing people together or companies or can companies be responsible for putting something a bit more integral out there about individual development I think we can look at certain software's and really development of technology and how when pages on psychotherapy in general that for me would be a starting point so you know for those who engage in therapy you know that if you've built a rapport with your therapist your therapist moves away but you still want to continue without therapist there is the possibility of doing it via Skype all right doing it via sure right doing it via stir right you know doing it via zoom etc so that connection can be there and then there's actually you know digital therapy where you actually interact with avatars to you know to propel that development I'm a bit skeptical of that but I'm definitely interested right and how that technology actually develops and how that that integral cycle therapeutic relationship might be built right so I think it's a small starting point it's not the grand the bigger starting point and the important question you're asking but if it's going to start somewhere I think it starts there actually right of looking at how the digital age is changing what the therapeutic relationship actually looks like right because there I think we are concerned with individual growth mental health and individual integrity how we move on to the larger companies yeah no idea no idea [Music] yeah yeah yeah crystal clear crystal clear so the question from our colleague is how do you know that you following your own path right is actually the right path in the best path right that you know if anything um you could be following another delusion right and I think that's really important my kind of cheeky knee-jerk reaction was to say I'm a better academic than I was a musician and that's perhaps a good sign right that it was the right move and usually you know young describes this process when you begin to take up another form of work another vocation it's like you become second it's second nature you just go with it right and the years that you may have lost right to developing it you just gain it back instantly right it's like that kid in the arcade you play Street Fighter right you've been practicing for three years right and this 13 year old starts whipping your butt with the worst character possible right then you know you're not on the right path so I think it's about being realistic with yourself as well I know that it's very easy to fall in love with the fantasy of yourself right of a fantasy of what you actually you know can become but I think you have to be realistic about your own talents and your own goals and individuation is actually about those those difficult questions right you know am I really going to achieve this if I'm just limited in terms of my own skill right so I think you know realizing the self and individuation is realizing what's achievable for you and taking into account and respect during honoring your own limitations as well sure yes [Applause]

Channel: The Weekend University

Views: 9,147

Rating: 4.7751002 out of 5

Keywords: the weekend university, psychology lectures, Carl Jung Individuation, Individuation Jung, Individuation meaning, Jungian Psychology, Collective unconscious

Id: lBjLuhf0HQ8

Length: 107min 22sec (6442 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 15 2020