Caoilinn Hughes: 2019 National Book Festival

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>> Beatriz Haspo: It is also my privilege today to welcome Ambassador Daniel Mulhall, to be the interviewer and make some remarks. Thank you very much. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Thank you. [ Applause ] Well, thank you very much. It's really a great pleasure to be here. I've spoken at book festivals at Edinburgh, at Newberry and Oxford, during my time as ambassador in London. But all of them required people to pay significant sums of money to come to a book event. So, 12, 15 pounds on average. It's fantastic. I want to pay one tribute to Library of Congress and all of its sponsors, for being able to make this a free event. It's a fantastic gesture. [Applause] and they deserve great credit for it. So, it's my pleasure and privilege to introduce Caoilinn Hughes. Now, we were going to have a long discussion about how to pronounce Caoilinn's name. Like, you know, [inaudible] the actress, she doesn't-- she went on Saturday Night Live and she explained to people how to say [inaudible]. I would have said Cleland, because that's what my dialect of Irish would say. But-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: When you come across a real Republican, they say that anyway. You say, "It's Caoilinn," they go, "Yes, Caoilinn", [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: That's right, Caoilinn. Anyway, we won't get into that, but-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: No accusations [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: But its Caoilinn Hughes. And, you know, I came across Caoilinn's work in a-- in an unusual way, perhaps. I've been tweeting poetry daily on my Twitter account. Every morning, I tweet some Irish poetry. Been doing it now for five years. And about a year ago, I started to worry that my poetry tweets were essentially a dead poets society, or at least a dead or elderly poets society. So, I asked my colleague Lillian Farrell [assumed spelling], our cultural officer, if she could find me some young, Irish poets. And Caoilinn was one of the points that I started tweeting. And then very kindly, Caoilinn sent me a copy of her novel. This is actually the Irish, British, European publication. The American version is here, published last year. Now, I think when I read her poetry, I thought, this is great. Because here I'm hearing the voice of a younger generation of Irish writer. And I thought that she had a vigorous voice and it's like, if you go on to my poetry-- to my Twitter account, this morning, I tweeted some lines from Caoilinn's book, Gathering Evidence, which was published in 2014. And won some very prestigious poetry prizes. Now, this novel has been very well received. It had a positive review in the New Yorker, which is no small achievement. Where it was described as, and I quote, " a winning debut novel." And then the Irish Times call it, "ambitious, full bodied, and fresh." And they went on to say, "Hughes trains her unique gaze, her artistic, analytical and emotional intelligence on us, not just in Ireland, but our capitalist world, and the personal, political and social ramifications, implicit in our acquiescence to R and D championing of its values." So Caoilinn is part of a new generation of Irish writers, very different from their predecessors. A hundred years ago, when W. B. Yeats, the great Irish poet was accepting his Nobel Prize, he talked about what he called a stir of thoughts in the late 19th century, which helped to create an independent Ireland and Ireland stellar 20th century literature. So, he said it was something happened in the 1890s in Ireland, that caused an upsurge of nationalist activity in Ireland and of literary creativity, epitomized by Yates and James Joyce and Sean O'Casey and so forth. So, the question I suppose, I want to ask you Caoilinn, is what drives 21st century, Irish writing? What is the equivalent for you, of that stir of thought that Yates talked about? Is it the Celtic Tiger and the adversities that we suffered economically, 10 years ago or so? What is the-- what was the spur for you to write this novel about contemporary Ireland? >> Caoilinn Hughes: Well, one of the things that the gates says, is that the-- your quarrel should be with the self and not the world. So, I suppose that is a timeless kind of ambition of any work of art. And but in terms of writing in the 20th-- 21st century specifically, I suppose, the realities of Ireland and, you know, all developed countries and in the last couple of decades, have shifted quite a ways from our parents' generation. Just, you know, on basic-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Like me. >> Caoilinn Hughes: [Laughs] on, you know, basic levels of what you can kind of expect from a government, what your civic duty is, what the social contract is, you know, education and housing and healthcare are all three times more expensive than they were for my parents. And my parents, when they bought a house, it costs 18 months their salary. For me, it cost 11 times my salary. So, there's, you know-- there's just, you know, huge differences in your negotiation with being a citizen. And then, I suppose if you're writing a novel that's set in that era, it's going to be grappling with some of those issues of what it is to exist in that time period, you know. So, yeah. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: So, I mean, just to explain to the audience. Ireland went through an enormous, economic boom between 1995 and 2007, which was called the Celtic Tiger. We didn't invent that name, but that's what was described to us. And then we have this economic setback, this economic crash. Which of course you had here in America as well, it wasn't just an Irish phenomenon. But it does seem to have had an impact on Ireland and your characters are very definitely shaped by those experiences. You know, the whole story is really wrapped up in that period between 2008 and 2011. When things, sort of, fell apart to us again. A few words from Yates. Although I have to say as ambassador, of course, it's my duty to say that the last five years you had the fastest growing economy in Europe, but that's only [inaudible]. Literature, that's our subject today. But so, do you think you could write a historical novel? >> Caoilinn Hughes: I don't know that I would want to. I mean, I say that and I might change my mind, but one of my favorite novels is E. L. Doctorow's, Ragtime. So, I say that, you know, not disparaging the genre. But I'm-- I don't feel any kind of urge to spend time doing research and partly that's I'm a horrendous procrastinator. So, if I give myself any excuse not to just write. And but there are so many-- there are so many things-- this is such a complex and rapidly changing age, that I'm more interested in writing about the last, you know, 20 years. Not just because it's my own, you know, well more than 20 years, unfortunately, my own life time but because it seems so vital to try and understand what's going on. I mean, so shall I may be mention the-- explain the title? >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Yes, yes. Please do. >> Caoilinn Hughes: So, this book is called Orchid & the Wasp and it's just an access point into describing the novel, to talk about the title. There's a type of orchid in Western Australia, that resembles a wasp. It has the structure of a wasp and it emits a female wasp pheromone. So, when male wasps fly by the flower, they try and mate with it. And in the process, they get the pollen latch to their foreheads and these kind of long orange shoots. And you can see the videos, the wasps are trying to get rid of something. There's little some things on them both. Eventually they give up and frustration and fly off. And then they're lured by another orchid, and when they try and mate with that, they pollinate the orchid. So that's quite an unusual dynamic in nature. It's called commensalism. Normally a mutualistic system; you'll have a little deer that's-- a bird that sits on a deer's back, eating tick from the deer. There's something kind of mutualistic. So, this example of the orchid that mimics the wasp, is an anomaly or you know, it's much rarer in nature than it is in society to have an exploitative system. So, there aren't any flowers or insects in the novel, but it's a-- kind of a bit of an anchor for the-- looking at an exploitative dynamic. And there's an underlying question with the title; is it really lost, if the loser isn't aware of what they're losing? So, one of the things that were in my head, one of the little points on the constellation that, you know, goes into writing a novel, was the Libor scandal, and it was unfolding in 2011 in the UK, and the London interbank offered rate. It was a manipulation of the interest rates between banks, in order to make banks look credit worthy, or to benefit from the trades. On this, several people who have been incarcerated as a result of the Libor scandal, which was outed. And billions of Euro have been paid in fines. So, but people on the whole-- you know, it affected such vast sums of money. And but people on the streets couldn't really tell you what Libor is and what this Libor scandal was or which banks were involved, or, more importantly, to what extent their own money had been affected. And you know, whereas in contrast, with the housing crisis of 2008, which was a large part of the economic struggles in Ireland. We had also this subprime mortgage extravaganza. People kind of understood or seemed to understand vaguely, what had gone on. Even if it was at such a simple level of bankers being bankers, you know. And, or even in Ireland, like, do you think people were contending with this, that they had some responsibility themselves. You know, the taxi driver who had 13-million-euro worth in mortgages, because the bank kept telling him, just remortgage the properties that you have, they're going up, you know, 20% year on year. You'd be a daft not to. And so, there was such an obsession with the very reality, that capital breeds capital. And that you know, the percentage return on capital at the moment, is higher than the percentage return on income. Which means that if you own capital, you're destined to be more-- to be richer, than if you work. And so that, you know, this is a heinous and important aspect of the moment that we're in. And so it was interesting to me, how-- why people chose to try and understand the subprime mortgage crisis and the bailout and all of that, but they didn't-- it didn't really seem to be so important to understand, you know, an equally enormous, you know, reprehensible act, that was going on. And so, I was interested in that. You know, to what extent is this less of a crime, if we don't know that it's really happened? Or we can't tell you and what's been done specifically. So that-- it's essentially, you know, trying to engage your own and complicity, if you are not trying to educate yourself about the realities, of how we wound up in a moment where, you know, you can work at nine until nine every day. And the guy who was born into a bit of land and or any other form of capital, is going to be better off. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Of course, that experience is one that has effect on a lot of countries. And it's had, I would say, seismic political effects. But your course, in this book, you're really looking at its effects on one family essentially. And their [inaudible], and in particular, your heroine, if I can call her that, Gael Floss. Gael Foess, so, were you trying to-- by looking at this extraordinary character you've created, were you trying to understand the broader issues that have been occupying the headlines of newspapers and radio stations and TV? >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: -- talk shows all over the world. For the last 10 years and we've seen, you know, Brexit in Europe, we've seen things happening in this country that wouldn't have been, maybe happened before. And it all seems to be a product of this period in history that you have looked into, through the person or through the people that you focus on in your novel; the Foess family. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah. So, I think still people don't necessarily-- there's still so much to be done, in terms of your everyday person's understanding of the situation that we're in. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Yeah. >> Caoilinn Hughes: I mean, six people in America, the areas of the Walmart empire, own more wealth than the lowest 30% of American society. And, you know, does every person in the room know how that happened or how that's possible? does every person in the room, know that last year the Trump administration introduced a tax cost. Whereby, if you buy a private jet, it's write-offable? Which is a threefold, you know, crime. But in terms of oil on the environment and, you know-- so there's still kind of a-- just because there's more coverage and more kind of engagements and more specific action in the public, doesn't necessarily mean that we're anywhere close to where we need to be, in order to really-- to contend with us and to not be manipulated still, by bankers and-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: And do you think that this situation that has captured so much attention over the last 10 years-- I mean the number of books written about the-- you know the crash and its implications and so on, I mean both-- mainly I suppose nonfiction, political, economic, sociological studies. But you think that that particular period, that particular crisis, could provide you with material for a number of novels? I mean, I-- is this going to be your-- you know your special subject? Like, you know-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: I mean well-- so, I have I have another novel coming out next year. There's so many things already that I haven't addressed from your questions. My brain's a little bit firing off. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Sorry for my questions [laughs]. >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, what I think-- I'm always interested in your engagement as a citizen, with the place that you live in and what kind of a-- you know, a reconciliation you have made, to be okay with that system and if not, what kind of resistance have you taken? So, the-- you know, but the next novel is extremely different, for a number of reasons. But I should say that, with this book, I start-- you know, I start I-- did mention that I started out with this idea of exploitation but at the same time, I didn't want to know-- I don't like to know what my what my books are going to be about. So, I like to write into the dark. Otherwise, I will have almost no interest in writing. It would feel like coloring in. And so that's just not how I write. So, I had to-- I didn't want to 350 pages later to be asking the same question. So, I put this really early on in the book, and the book becomes about something else. And essentially, I-- it was a female leads because I'd written several practice novels and they were all men, and they all had protagonists. So, I felt that I had readied myself to write a female protagonist. And I wanted to write a kind of picaresque novel. Which you know, is just an-- a novel about a character out in the world. You know, you might say like Ila Caesar or Voltaire's Candide or you know, or even you know, Frankenstein and books like that, where it's about a character doing stuff. Essentially, about their career, or what their-- what's driving them, where the drive for the-- the engine of the narrative doesn't come from a relationship. So, it's not a love story. And it's not a coming of age engine. And all of the books I loved growing up, were about men out in the world doing stuff. You know, maybe novels have ideas, or, you know, just all of the novels. They don't even really have labels. They're not coming of ages primarily, and they're not love stories. And so, when I started to think about-- realized that I was doing this, and it occurred to me that the only picaresque novels with female leads, are heroines. And they're heart of gold heroines, and the arc of those novels are always about the character discovering their inner strengths and their inner integrity. And that's the ark. That's where the ark of the novel comes from. And so, I was writing a character who I didn't want her to be a heroine. I just wanted her to-- actually I didn't know what she would be. But I wanted to allow her to be whatever she needed to be and whatever the novel wanted her to be. And it turns out that she's-- you know, doesn't behave admirably. And what she's actually driven by, is cynicism. And she's become extremely cynical, that in order to succeed in late capitalism, what you need first and foremost, is privilege. That's the biggest blocking-- you know, building block to success. And after privilege, you need a willingness to be morally adaptable. And this is the-- this is her-- this is her kind of thesis, which her father, a banker for Barclays, kind of instills in her. And he saw her as great material, a great, great success story material. Except that for her, that willingness to be duplicitous, and, and having to have privilege meant that, if you are to achieve success, that's a pretty compromised and grim and uninspiring form of success. And you know, is a good life even possible in such a-- within such an equation? Or is trying to live a good life some form of self-delusion? So, it's really about you know, somebody contending with cynicism. I don't know about how many people in the room there are, I see a lot of millennials and there was, certainly a feeling in the last 15 years of cynicism-- an unspoken cynicism, that people were trying to work out and that there was no-- there were no films about and there were no books about. And it's not a very flattering thing to write about or to read about. But it's how we got where we are. By people not contending with the ugliness of the social structure enough and not accepting that if you protect your privilege, it's very unlikely that your ethics are, you know, very admirable. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: You know, I was at the Annual Conference of the American Political Science Association there, today at the Washington Hilton. This morning, I was at a panel discussion on Ireland. And I was-- I had the book with me and someone asked me-- - one of the biggest donors asked me, you know, for-- asked me what was it about? And I said-- I told him, it was about, you know, Ireland of the, you know, the crash and all that. They said, "I can't bear the idea. It's so grim. I know, it's important, but it's so grim." I said, "No, no, this book is not grim. Because it's not grim." I mean, it's-- I mean its-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, I mean, I don't think it's a grim thing, if you're having an honest-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: I mean, it's not grim at all. I mean, it's not-- I had to practice [inaudible]. It actually comes across somehow, as nearly an optimistic book. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah. Because I mean-- yeah, because, well, so the book-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Because Gael is not downtrodden. She's not beaten into pug by life. >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, she's-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: She's actually up there fighting to the last stages. >> Caoilinn Hughes: She's an active character. So, she's got agency which is a privilege. But she is an actively proving things to herself. And by doing that, she is not living in an apathetic, passive and submissive, reticent way. You know, she is trying to find-- to prove something to herself and where that leaves her-- you know, she's young when the novel finishes. So, there-- you know, she does in a sense-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Does this mean there's another novel about Gael coming-- ? >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, I'm not-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Coming our way? >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, but I think it's important because, for example-- I hope it's not too much of a spoiler but there-- she has a relationship with a woman. She's bisexual, in the book and because she's not-- because I allowed her to not be like, a likable, easy heroine and more an admirable, kind of character. She-- you know, you can tell that she knows that if she chooses to be with a woman, she will be relinquishing a certain amount of her privilege. Things will be harder; opportunities will be lost to her. And there's a choice to be made. And there are very few novels that kind of, reveal those types of compromises that people can make. Because it's an aspect of life, you know. We do all have-- and we are all compromised. And I think-- I'm so wary of middle class, white women's desire to flatter themselves. And I think, you know, that there's a reason why, you know, apart from the race issue in America, the-- you know, the other reason why Hillary wasn't electable in my view, is because there's no precedent for such a character. She was-- you know, a ruthlessly ambitious woman, who doesn't have any trauma. You know, there was a trauma, but it didn't really traumatize her, its traumatized Monica Lewinsky. And if it had traumatized Hillary more, it might have rendered her electable. Because that's the type of thing we can get behind. We can get behind a wounded woman, we can get behind a heroine, heart of gold woman. And we cannot get behind a comparable politician. She-- you know, is-- the-- clearly the qualified candidate, the better candidate. It's not my politics by the way. Hers aren't but in that scenario, she was the person you'd vote for, right? And you know, we're in an age where we're trying to figure out why she wasn't elected. Well, where's the precedent? Where's the book about characters like that? Not heroines, capable of the job and you know, there's such a double standard and still existent. And I believe the biggest force of change for that will come from women and white women specifically. Because it was-- for 54% of white women that didn't vote for Hillary. So that's something-- like you know, it's probably-- like, the novel like sold abysmally in America. And it's probably, partly because of that. Because people-- that's not an easy sell [laughs]. But I still think it's important to do-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: When I was when I was reading it, I was thinking of how different it is from the-- shall we say, the kind of standard, Irish novel of the last century. I mean, if you think about Edinall [assumed spelling] Brian for example, and country girls and written 50 years ago or John [inaudible] and his novel's about rural Ireland and the repressive, enclosed, confined society. I mean, Gael doesn't live in that kind of society, at all. In fact, she's quite a privileged background, although troubled. I mean, her father's a banker, her mother is an orchestra conductor. By the way, you're very good on classical music. You managed to describe, you know, the classical music scene. Is that because you have some background, or did you have to do research in that? For that part of the book? >> Caoilinn Hughes: We like-- there's five kids in my family and we had a violin that was passed around from each kid. So, we squeaked our way, you know, and we-- and in Ireland is a very much a culture of the party piece. So, you know, you have quite lots of family gatherings, and everyone has to have a party piece. So, the violin was handed round. But I was also-- I've been in like, in a lot of amateur orchestras. I find, like, I haven't in years, but I live in New Zealand for seven years. And I was part of some really bad orchestras there. Which were like the sources of such joy. Like, people spending their evenings, like, you know, looking forward to the biscuit break, you know? And like, just the humor that-- of like, people engaging in like something for fun for-- Yeah, like, so I find that but-- especially in the amateur side of things, it just-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: There's another thing I wanted to ask you about; I mean, you live in New Zealand for seven years. And you were an executive with Google. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Not an executive [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Well, you were-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: It was entry level. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: I mean, but you could have stayed in Google and you could have-- maybe share options would have come your way. And by now, you'd probably be working in Silicon Valley in Google headquarters. You know-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: I have five Google shares actually, since then. I didn't-- I would have gotten five every year. I don't know if I'm supposed to reveal this? Oh, well [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Oh, well, you've done it anyway, now so there you are. What can we say? >> Caoilinn Hughes: But anyway, but I didn't last long enough to get any more of them. I just-- I couldn't you know-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: What made you-- I mean, you could have stayed in that corporate world and gone up to the ranks and probably had a very successful career. What prompted you to sort of, take the plunge and decide to become a writer? I think you told me, when we spoke earlier in the week, that you're earning less now, than you earned in your first year of Google. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Because I did it Authors at Google Talk. And they don't actually really like to have a fiction authors in there because you know, the employees like to learn things. But I wangled my way in any way, into the Dublin thing and I gave a talk. But I did want to-- I didn't want to you know, be belittling so I did, you know, tell everyone to read David Graeber's, Bullshit Jobs. And you know, the fact of the matter is that I wasn't paid to be there. You know, so-- and then when I revealed that, you know, when I'd had worked at Google, something like 12 or whatever years ago, I earned twice as much as I do now. There-- you know, everyone was kind of looking at each other, awkwardly, thinking about their health insurance, you know. But that's a-- you know, it's important to bring it up because, you know, we only get one life. And you know, who knows how short or long it's going to be? It always is too short. And so, for me, it's just, I couldn't be doing something that isn't the most important thing to be doing. Even when it comes to writing, you know, I could be a far more successful writer. Like, you know, really, and at the-- but those are-- for me would be compromises because, you know, I think about it, like if you were to be hit by a bus, what's the thing that you would want to be working on? That has to be the thing and so, it's not necessarily what's going to sell or what's going to make your publicist happy. But, yeah [laughs]. So, I'm a bit contrary. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: No, as I mentioned earlier in my introduction of you, I came across you first as a poet, which you're not-- which are collection, gathering evidence. And when I read that I thought, "Oh, this is really lively, vigorous, contemporary." When you write a novel, does it come from a different part of your being? How does it-- how does the-- because I can imagine-- I reads poetry every day, but I have never written a single line of poetry. I have to say, sadly, I have never been able to do it. But I know a good line when I see one. And I could imagine that a line or an idea comes into your head, and you go away and you put it down on the page, or you type it out. And that's your poem. And you work on, you revise it, but eventually-- essentially it comes from a sort of, moment of inspiration. is writing a novel, the-- essentially the same experience, or is it-- does it come from a different part of your being? >> Caoilinn Hughes: They're so different. Like novels are so-- they're so hard. It's so hard to write a novel. It's so hard. You need to have such an amount of self-belief and-- so that building that off is-- takes time. You know, it took me kind of a year or something after finishing Orchid, to be able to really write anything. Because I was kind of so-- you know, it's so draining. It takes everything that you have. And so then-- because I don't tend to, you know describe a novel before I start writing and I don't design it-- which by the way, you know, if you think about it this way, I've never heard of anybody designing a poem before they write it. But it's very common to hear of someone just designing a novel. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: But did you design your novel when you were writing it? >> Caoilinn Hughes: No, no, like I literally-- I mean, even-- so there's-- it goes from Dublin to London to New York, and there's a section in the Occupy Wall Street movement, and I didn't know that that was going to happen. It happened just because-- I mean, I didn't even know the page before. It happened because it was like, she was going to New York and it was October 2011. And I googled Wikipedia, October 2011; What's going on just in case there's some public holiday or whatever, and it's the occupy-- and I think I ran down the streets, you know shouting with joy because it was found like such serendipity. It was completely connected to the-- But no, I really don't know at all. What the-- but what-- the project is with the novel, is to try and push into an-- you know the-- and interrogate yourself-- the questions, the most subtle and nuanced and deep questions that you're capable of asking of the world and of yourself. So that's what you were trying to do. And I believe in a gestation period between writing. I could never go from wising one thing to another. Because, you know, you just need time to rediscover, you know, for the kind of center of gravity of your interest in the world and your thought processes to move. And so that the next novel isn't some weird lame of the previous book, you know? >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Now, the Irish Times in its review, which I mentioned earlier, said that you were part of a new guard of young writers, as they put it, marching over the hill of Irish fiction. Do you see yourself in that way? As part of a generation shaking up the old-- shaking off the cobwebs of the kind of, established, literary order in Ireland and somehow turning it on its head and creating a new literary tradition for the 21st century? >> Caoilinn Hughes: I don't know. I don't really-- when I look back at Irish writing, I don't really see any gap in there being, you know, writers that were doing interesting things. So, I mean, maybe there are more voices because of capitalism, you know? Because products, products, products, more products, products, but-- and they happen to be of quite a high quality, I would say largely because of investment, because of culture Ireland and the Arts Council, and that's why I'm here. And so, the-- and the embassy. But so, this is, you know, systemic support. Which is privilege, right? So that's why I'm very-- I'm always very wary of the you know, the self-congratulation about Irish rising. And because so much of that is just kind of the statistics of systemic support. You know, even if you compare Northern Ireland to the Republic, there's-- it's, it's far fewer dollars per capita is spent on the arts, and so-- in Northern Ireland. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Right. >> Caoilinn Hughes: So, you know, and that shows, you know, in the kind of quantity of books from the north, in comparison to the ones from the Republic. So that's just-- I always feel it's important-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: We do-- but we do seem to have a kind of a fairly rich vein of younger writers at the moment. Do we not? >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah, there are. There are some really great writers and maybe the social media age and all of that, is helping some more voices that might be kind of-- that might fall between the cracks. I'm not sure. And it does seem you know, there's as-- it's a small island and there is-- everyone's very friendly, like their-- to read the friendliness is real. I noticed that because I haven't lived in Ireland in the Republic since I was 16. I studied in Belfast for five years. And then I moved to New Zealand and now, I live in the Netherlands. And I was very wary when I started publishing, that I wouldn't be let in or that, I'd never quite belong. I've never felt-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: You don't listen to my Twitter account anyways, so-- >> Caoilinn Hughes: Well, I think I probably left myself in you know [laughs]. I probably came knocking on the door. But, yeah, so I mean that community of writers is very strong, and very open and increasingly open-- increasingly open to, you know, second and third generation and immigrants as well in Ireland. The more that the better, because it's always a little bit-- I was saying somebody earlier, that the Irish never do those DNA tests because it would just be horrifying. You'd be your own cousin, like the [laughs]-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Yeah, I did mine recently and I was in Salt Lake City with ancestry. And they said it was very rare. I was 100% Irish, there you are. I was a bit worried that I might be less than 50%. It might be sort of, a career ending experience. But anyway-- so, I was going to ask, did you bring any of your poetry? >> Caoilinn Hughes: I did. I brought it from-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Because I think it will be nice for the audience to hear your own voice, hear your poetry. Obviously, it's hard to read from the novel because it's-- you know-- but I think if you read one of your poems or a couple of your poems, I think that'd be very interesting to hear, you know your language. Because the language of your poetry is-- comes through in the language of the novel. At least I think that any way. It seems to me to be coming from the same linguistic source, you know. You don't have a different voice in prose and the one you have in poetry. I think the voices are kindred voices. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah, I write equally slowly with both [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Okay. Actually, the novel. It's got a very-- it's got-- I mean, it's very pacey. But you're saying it maybe pacey in the way it reads but it wasn't pacing in the way you wrote it? >> Caoilinn Hughes: Wrote it, no-- [laughs]. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Okay, okay. Anyway, give us a poem. >> Caoilinn Hughes: I'll read one and called preventive measures, and it's a little bit of a-- it's kind of a sci fi poem, which is an odd idea. But it imagines a character who has had a preventive-- preventative heart transplant, just in a slightly futuristic scenario. And she's brought her old heart in a jar to her father who is-- got heart disease, and you know, is of the generation that they are-- that the new technologies, a new world, isn't available to them. There's another parallel conversation going on between the father and daughter, about legacy and about the type of new reality that you might have to be comfortable living within. And you'll hear in the poem, it's quite short. There's a heartbeat and as the poem progresses, it kind of starts to trip on itself. Preventive measures; Today, I wanted to show you my heart. You asked, "You'd open your ribs like a book?" Blood vessels broke on your cheeks and you shook. I wanted to help you to see, to label the troublesome parts. I regret the faults I passed on but that's the Lord's unknowable way. I've more stents now than prayers and they serve me just fine. Father, I wanted to show you the organ I ordered online. It's the color of cider apple. It's complex as your ear. Tender as stingray. You glanced at the jars stuck between us. The muscle it held was lightened. The preservant was bloodstains like Reisling poured on the dregs of Syrah. You can wear my old heart on your sleeve, I laughed. You said, "A stigma?" You sat there, heart bleating until apples in some orchards had ripened. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: So, we have-- and we have time for a couple of questions. Hands up and somebody will appear before you, with a microphone. And if we could have a question. Oh, sorry. Yes, yes. >> Thank you, Ms. Hughes, for coming to the festival and reading the poem. You talked about your writings being influenced by what happened to between 2007 and the period after that. Ireland has been going through some seismic changes in the last 10 years. You had the referendum on abortion, you have a gay Prime Minister. What's the title? I mean, it's an unusual title. He's not called-- [ Inaudible Comment ] I will read up on that. Is that reflective of-- I mean, are your writings going to be influenced by those events? And also, are you influenced by the fact that you've been part of the European Economic Community for so many years? And of course, the inevitable question about Brexit; I mean, how is that going to-- [laughter] and it just wanted to add, I haven't read Irish literature extensively, but one of my favorite poems in school was William Butler Yeats, Lake Isle of Innisfree. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: I will arise and go down, go to Innisfree. >> Yes, yes. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Go ahead. >> I loved it. I've read Oscar Wilde. I don't think I have it in me to digest James Joyce's Ulysses. >> Caoilinn Hughes: He's got a great blog on it. >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Yeah, yeah. >> But anyway, I wanted to talk to you about these events and you know, how they influence writers. And it's good that you mentioned that there's a lot of literature coming out of Northern Ireland. One doesn't hear much about it. You hear only about Allister and all the blow ups that happened, but it's nice that you mention it. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Yeah, there's a very good Northern Irish novel that came out recently called, The Fire Starters by Jan Carson. And it centers around the 12th of July, the Orange Order marches in Northern Ireland, that are-- you know, whether you've-- maybe see the news of those huge fires, but it's written from a loyalist perspective. And I think now is a very interesting time, to allow space for loyalists in Northern Ireland, who are being really delivered the worst outcome, for having engaged in a peaceful coexistence with, you know, with Republicans and Catholics over the last 20, you know, 15 years. So, yeah, how to tackle your questions? Because there was a few there. Well, one aspect of contemporary Irish culture that I'm very nervous about, is this might not be an ideal selling point for my-- for the ambassador here but is that the Irish economy now has got-- relies a lot on US corporates. So, we have a 12 and a half percent corporate tax rate. To give you a comparison, Germany's is 30% at the moment. So, and the infrastructure in Germany reflects that. That money that's available to the government. And so, now are-- you know, in this crucial moment, when Ireland is becoming all the more appealing for international companies, as to have as a base, especially as a tax base. It's a very dangerous time because it makes the country susceptible to corporate control of government. And that's something that I think is terrifying. Because it's very, very-- you know, while the people are still lovely on in the pub and the culture is still rich. And as soon as the government shifts into that, sort of neoliberal, you know, corporatocracy area, you know, you're losing out on all sorts of social welfare and, you know, generally a rich society in my belief. And also, at the moment, you know, the biggest-- the agenda for every single country in the world should be the climate. And you know, that's not going to be the-- on the top of the agenda for any kind of centrist or corporately inclined government. So, that's what I'm very nervous about and I wanted to write-- this novel, I think, is starting to engage with that a bit, you know? Because Ireland's been changing so quickly. So, in the 80s, there was a lot of EU investment that created the infrastructure that we have now. And when I lived in Northern Ireland going back and forth, you know, on the odd weekend, it was a completely different economy. Northern Ireland is still very working class. And during the boom years in the south, I remember kind of being discombobulated by you know, how a person spent their day just kind of shopping, you know? And/or like a building a panic room, you know? Like, they felt like a cognitive dissonance was a real thing. So, in a way the crash was-- recalibrated Irish cultural, kind of sensibility. But yeah, so there are positive things. There are really progressive and exciting things. But also, if I can-- if there's time to say it, like, you know, at the moment, the US has got an-- its Irish Americans have got their ears open to what's happening with Brexit. Partly you know, for identity reasons, but also because there's this conversation that's happening about potentially United Ireland. Now I lived in Northern Ireland. And I can tell you that the best scenario for Northern Ireland is the status quo; which is in every other aspect of life, is status quo. Is the worst scenario at the moment, because of the climate. But in Northern Ireland, it's a stable state. And also, really importantly, it's a symbol for coexistence and tolerance and peace among people with very different backgrounds and aspirations and sensibilities. And I think that's really hopeful thing. And so, it's a disaster Brexit because it-- already it has and ruined the possibility of that status quo in Northern Ireland remaining. So, it's a tragedy. I can keep talking about this, but maybe-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: I've been given the one-minute warning. So, as a good ambassador, I always take instruction from the stage manager. And as a good moderator too, I will bring things to a close. But I just wanted to thank you Caoilinn, for coming over. The Embassy is delighted to be associated with this event; with the National Book Festival, with the Library of Congress. My first week in Washington two years ago, one of the first things I did was to visit the Library of Congress and it's a wonderful place. If you haven't been there, you definitely need to go. But my most exciting moment of that tour, of the library of Congress, was not the great building, but rather getting into the shelves, to see all the sort of shelves and books going on forever. Anyway, thank you for giving us your views on-- well, thank you for for talking about your novel, for reading your poetry and also for giving us your take on contemporary Ireland and our place in the contemporary world. >> Caoilinn Hughes: Thank you, thank you. In case I don't get in, thank you and to the Embassy and culture Ireland. Because, you know, I wrote to Ambassador Mulhall, and I explained that the first-- my first encounter with an Irish politician was president Michael D. Higgins, who was a poet and I met him in Galway City Library. And we were reading at the same event [laughs] bizarrely, when I was 16. And but-- so my initial encounter with Irish politics was that it cared about the arts, that are participated in the arts and that it turned up. So, thank you for-- >> Ambassador Daniel Mulhall: Now, you and I could talk about this book for a long time, and the issues that it raises with regard to the contemporary art and that I'm privileged to represent here in the United States as ambassador. But thank you for coming and thank you all for being here today. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Caoilinn Hughes: Thanks.
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Channel: Library of Congress
Views: 563
Rating: 5 out of 5
Keywords: Library of Congress
Id: ap3Mee4JyAw
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Length: 44min 38sec (2678 seconds)
Published: Mon Oct 21 2019
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