Camille Paglia 1995 interview

Oh Polly is here her new book is called vamps and tramps here is the cover we'll talk more about that later she has exploded onto the American scene as part of the American cultural and academic and pop stardom seen her other earlier books included sex art and American culture also sexual persona and I am pleased to have it here to talk about some of her ideas and some of the controversy that swirls around her back or her third appearance I think it is on this broadcast and I'm happy to have you here you see you know you want to talk about some things that I want to talk about some things first of all me first here is the civilized guy alone here is Esquire magazine February 1995 and guess what inside Tim Allen talk stuck with Hurricane Camille with coming up alia this came about because Tim Allen was on this program and I asked him about your book because he because he I'm asking about his book talking about you his best-selling book number one bestseller mentions me at the very start as a great writer and then you brought it brought it up me to him he began talking about his influence by my writing and then the escort editors sent me themes that they are set me to to meet Tim Allen in Hollywood and he night arm-wrestled perfectly together from the beginning oh yeah I mean I Timmy and I aren't on the same wavelength he's a real guys guy I like no proletarian guy and you are well I I I'm the working-class intellectual is what I am okay I'm stuck in the street okay by ordinary people who say to me like give them a now girl there's there's no other intellectuals such a recognition face recognition as I do with ordinary people working people okay let me take a look at this tape this is from Tim Allen on this broadcast talking about our guest and we'll move on to other things here it is I just found her I like her anger and intensity and then level rock and roll yeah very difficult not to like this person and plus her welcome I mean it's sexual persona and this is a PhD and a little heart of Education good lord you read the book you go how did you where did where do you have the time or the inclination to know that the sixteenth century art that famous this guy and it was the this guy in this art is here and there's represents and Greeks and and she makes such great points that one of which that I it's hard to explain how what that means but the clergy used to celebrate young boys this is the same clergy that's now put in jail for that same yes and I don't know what that means and I did I forgot to hold the whole run of that she said I wish made me laugh about men you know urinating on fires is their way to conquer nature and she's women can't do that without severely burning their loins and she in the middle of this thing about it's not male bashing Jesus says males traditionally have been these roles and women these roles but it comes out to women have been a little smarter they they're a little bit more important but she goes on the other hand she's typing her on her IBM laptop only men would think of making this you know she's very much like me show she'll go at both species and it seems like the women are winning this I used to do but did you know on the other hand men have this capacity as the George Washington Bridge only a man would think of sinking a piling into the into the into the riverbed to conquer the river women would be just satisfied with waving across you know yeah I mean it sometimes it's true she says that all art all art and culture are inventions of men they did that and she's I don't remember it I may be misquoted her but she says she's suggesting that maybe women don't would not have done that that's not that's not their realm they don't they don't that's not in their interest level they would have done something else when some of the I just might just find her fascinating she's really taught me long Tim Allen talking about Camille Pauley as I said Esquire magazine their conversation but what you end up with is both of you believe you believe women are stronger than men yeah women rule the universe woman's sexual power yeah woman a feminist picture of male oppression a female victim edge is completely wrong it's a reverse of the truth but you also believe that the world have been left up to women would they still be back what was your expression in civilization was still being grass yes that inconsistent no no I mean the points most feminist feel that we should be back in communion with nature again okay back on back on the plane no what I'm saying is that they call huge constructions of all the history of architecture and of the George Washington Bridge and technology and spaceships and so on these are all these are created by male anxiety flight from flight from woman okay in I mean basically like to mail and my theories about sex like a home everyday life everyday observation and experience right now I love the standup comedians by the way the stand-up comedians are closer to the truth about sex then in the feminist establishment is what is it they're saying that's so close to the edge well because they're working with an audience and so they're looking for that spark of recognition that leads to the big the big laughter okay so that's why as things change it's the comedians who are changing like chameleons okay with the culture right where's the you know the PC dinosaurs that I'm in conflict with and in a khadeem and in the in literary establishments you know in the feminist establishment these people are like so passe they're stuck with 25-year old ideologies all right we're gonna get to a lot of this but let me just make one other point about about Tim Allen he also you also acknowledge that there is gonna be a war between the sexes that somehow we're at war but by virtue of the fact that woman wrote woman rules the reproductive matrix okay every every boy's staggers out from the shadow of his mother goddess and in whose body he has dwelt for nine months it is an ancient mythology worldwide it's true Marty has much more truth about this about this in history the uncanny nasaw that then then our are kinds of you know a feminist rhetoric today here's what else you are in favor of I'm just gonna pick some of these up and get to the world of academia as well you're in favor of the death penalty why well I am a libertarian in the new book vamp sometimes contains us this maintenance ain't no law in the arena which details my militant sixties radical libertarian philosophy which is that government must stay out of the private realm that government should exclusively in the public realm and should be minimal should be should be very stripped down kind of a structure and I'm saying any fact that you know I'm quote unrestricted access to abortion for a legalization of drugs even though I don't take drugs for abolition of all sodomy laws decriminalization of prostitution okay at the same time I'm saying that i feei i see no inconsistency in being for the deaf man when you say legalize all drugs of liberalize all dropping legalize drugs and consistent with alcohol regulation that's what I'm saying all pornography is okay with you including child pornography well what I'm saying is that part that the public display a pornography can be reasonably restricted that is it should not intrude into the public realm okay just coming out of a subway a Christian person should not have to see you know naked ladies but but those magazines should be available at the newsstands what I'm saying okay now the death penalty I believe in the death penalty for extreme crimes political assassination serial rape murder kills them and that is my exterminate them now I don't believe in rehabilitation okay I believe in justice I believe that the survivors should have a sense of justice as people are lynched in public that's what I think well but how do you determine the appropriate punishment well I mean I think the minute you start it's so ridiculous we've the way we sort of our victim centered kind of criminology right now you know we there's you know women are sort of in this you ask a question does not mean that you're centered on victim centered you say what is the appropriate punishment on behalf of the state on behalf of the victims and people who've suffered from the crime yeah you know that's not to be victim centered is well I mean I think that our courts are tied up Appeals they go on and on for years I you know I don't believe I don't believe enlightened with mind I believe in execution for for serious crimes the swift and certainty of punishment yeah Bible you die okay the other thing while we'll go through this because some of this is in this book you you want to lower the age of consent for children yes the 14 right I mean 14 you could drive drink vote do whatever you want it to do as well as for any kind of sexuality before at age 14 is okay with you statutory rape would not apply what I'm talking about in my work is I think what's happened after the Industrial Revolution okay is that is that there is a too long a gap between between puberty when when the body is sexually ready to mate and the moment when you're considered an adult by society I think that our idea of adulthood has been distorted by ideas of a word wah professional job readiness comin out of the Industrial Age coming out the Industrial Age okay so I'm calling for is a total rethinking our definition of childhood in adulthood I mean you know Freud was 100 years ago talking about thee about infantile sexuality that the infant is already erotic and the moment it comes out of the womb 100 years later we haven't absorbed it it's very very difficult for parents to absorb such a phone a lot to say about that as well but I want to go down the list date rape where you've been trying to tick off those areas I want you but very controversial one on that it's very clear that exactly that I've totally how do we measure that you've won oh my god the number of books that are out there okay can you write these mean that the whole discourse in the media now has completely changed historians will know if they study okay my turn my seminal writings on rape in 1991 okay all my language my terms they're everywhere any public discussion of it any news magazine a newspaper my language the problem okay because everywhere I have one on that one not so fast those demands apartment after dinner and and she is forced to have sex with him a she deserves it I don't know obey that she he is not guilty my total victory are and things like driving out from the scene you never hear anymore no always means no rape is a crime of violence not of sex I mean all those things are gone now and in people's idea now that women should have bare people responsibility for their partner date but no no that idea the poly idea that's very extreme I admit that spectrum here's my idea after the sexual revolution after my generation went through ok wait when I was young in the early 60s girls didn't nice girls didn't okay you know you're a if you did so it was easy for us because they know and we still would get the boys respect after my generation went through look what we'd be queasily to the girls of the 90s well what is now is that if a girl doesn't put out she's 12 or 13 or 14 the guy will get it from the girl with sitting next to her in class okay so it's terrible now you don't know if you go on a date with somebody is this girl religious she's gonna hold on to her virginity till marriage it is she like someone can be persuaded or if she's someone who just does that hey party girl she'll do it with 18 people okay given the ambiguities now in the 90s okay what I'm saying is both parties must look at everyday as a potential sexual encounter I'm using the gay male attitude okay gay men are adults about these things for thousands of years they have been okay so I'm saying is you negotiate the idea of your sexual readiness or accessibility from the first moment you meet so here's what I'm saying I know it's this is radical I know I'm saying if you meet a stranger and you consent to go to that strangers apartment on the on the first night you have consented to sex this is probably reasonable okay if we follow the polity principle there'll be no more misunderstandings right now I get gay men you know gay men don't in the middle of a sex act suddenly go I've changed my mind or like the next day they go they run through a grievance committee slap him on the hand was game when Damon they continue having sex what is this girl suddenly suddenly like I was drunk alright if your drunken you and you kill five people on the road okay are you are you let off the hook no okay I want no more special protections for women okay no I want equal responsibility I want you to probably go to his apartment by your logic you deserve whatever you you're putting the loaded word in there I'm saying that that you you communicate your readiness for sex by your body language bye bye bye bye what you're wearing okay suppose let me set the scenario yeah alright you meet somebody you meet a man that you're interested in and you like him and you have dinner with him and you do what and and you have a wonderful conversation and he says he takes you home and he says come on up for a glass of wine and then finish and he says come on up you say come on playing Russian roulette okay you're playing Russian roulette question mark you are because because the point is I think that what you're saying yes okay you're saying in fact I'm considering sex with this person okay no I don't think anyone has a right to put his or her hand on you without your consent I'm a libertarian okay but if you have a small woman and you're going you're getting into the power of a pocket of a large man hey the guy could be Ted Bundy could be Jeffrey Dahmer wake up girl okay life is filled with dangerous because gay men know this gay men understand the dangers of the street they're cruising in parks and you understand they get beat up and get killed okay from thousands of years has been going on I'm sick and tired of women having this overprotective kind of infantilize condition okay we're sort of like that poor white middle-class girl look what happened to her I'm tired of that we women of the 60s okay demanding equality of opportunity I'm tired of talking about this okay I mean I've won this argument or you know the cultural stage the date rape thing is dead as a doornail now thanks to me sexual harassment also Hill what keeps on popping up what is it you don't like about Anita here I mean I he'll is the biggest phony or police ten years later okay suddenly she comes she comes on the scene Oh in this man is being what do you say man this man I don't think was particularly you know if it's necessarily okay for that nomination for the court this man is ten years later being asked to reconstruct lunchtime conversations are we in Stalinist Russia where are we here okay that's patella terian the whole be down the pike and now Oh big new evidence that crappy book by those Walter reporters yeah now they thought oh wow he had a Playboy centerfold up in the kitchen hang him they found no evidence handle the promotion of that book that new book giving the nominee for awards what a butt cultural elite put up that thing is well I think American Spectator must be your Bible then oh no no I'm not I am absolutely not okay exactly like David David Brock that Abed like hey come on yeah come on David Brock has been dissed he's got a lot of heart on this issue he's been dissed on every yes absolutely okay there's a better hearing that he as far as you're concerned Clarence Thomas didn't lie and Anita Hill did or as far as you're concerned it's irrelevant what happened ten years ago if there was a sexual harassment case to be made it should have been made then I don't think I don't you say to women no matter how frightened you are by no matter how you considered you had no options no matter what the beer that lived inside of you it doesn't matter if you don't have what it takes to go outside and leave the man leave the job then you deserve another you whatever happens to you is your problem why is that what you just said ninety six before all this started I lobbied for sexual harassment guidelines to be adopted in my University in Philadelphia moderate written I'm a quid pro quo if someone says to you you must sleep with me or not I can get promoted that's sexual harassment anyone telling off-color joke to you this is a democracy anyone who has the right to use any language to you at all at any time you must develop the language to fight back against it okay what should happen to some to an employer who is fondling one of his employees no one has a right to put a hand on you okay so if he is doing that first of all it's up to the woman the first time it happens to say stop it terminate the fantasy now look I know there's I'm talking about this I'm saying most women go along with it they go along for a year or two then suddenly they decide hey I've been sexually harassed lost oh okay now I'm saying when the first moment you arrive at a job okay or at school or anywhere you go okay you are communicating what you will take you set the board ones and say I am empowering women I'm saying it with a girl okay what I'm talking about this well what is it you want to talk about I I mean all this is in this book yeah there's everything I've mentioned so far is out of this thing at the University we don't want to sell this book the universities are in a state of decay that's also advancing talking about my I have it all because you're all upset about political correctness socialism and and any violation of the canons right down the line I think all of that threatens what we know as a Western civilization education in our university I'm talking I'm talking about knowledge I'm talking about the how the University of abandoned well should be the center of the university which is learning okay all right now I'm on the record my last book sex art noggin culture had a whole transcript of a multicultural course I taught at the University okay with with an Asian professor okay I believe in it enlightened multiculturalism based on scholarship what is your present unenlightened and enlightened multi culture I'm totally opposed to any politicized agenda in the classroom okay I do not want this crappy melodrama being taught to our students that Western civilization is filled with evil patriarchs and out there are the wonderful people of color well but I don't anyone that I know that believe that just think of what you just said the new historicist okay I mean my god every word out of their mouth is about the evil of Western culture what some culture is evil and all you don't know how African culture is oh boy people these people in the you have control of universities humanities departments now do not believe in great art okay they do not they believe the dead white European males are just you know I've been Canada I'd skip gates doesn't believe that talking about I mean his conversation I mean I respect him because he has really involved in us thinking but his comedy is not exactly filled with okay reference is a Shakespeare at Sophocles and Dante excuse me whereas my book sexual persona begins in ancient Egypt okay and talks about what what Western culture owes to to Africa okay all right so I'm out there more to talk about your persona all right Madonna yeah I have a great fan of Madonna ever since the night 1983-84 okay alright why what is it about her I mean I she she was he's a a brilliantly talented woman who unfortunately has made a lot of stupid mistakes alright and it's now at a low point you know but a lot of the great stars had appeared in box-office poison what is it you like about her what is it that sort of resonates with you about seven years there she really was the cutting edge of a world music she really was and and she she was pushing sexual persona for women she she managed to resect relize the Anglo American female persona she brought in the kind of Mediterranean sensuality into it she brought porn motifs enough she brought Hollywood glamour back okay every new woman pop star these days have been influenced by Madonna and unfortunately her influence so profound the people say hey we don't need her anymore but listen I'm telling you twenty years down the road women in Japan okay rising and corporate or you know rising in the politics rise in the world we're gonna say Madonna inspired me because she liberated me she's liberated women Japan you also said the other day or Ted in this book I think have you talked about Rush Limbaugh hmm Ross Perot Howard Stern the crazed populist figures okay kind of lunatic figures who are great analyst Outsiders from the outside we're comedians communicate ideas with entertainment is that your notion of them I think you know that we just start we have we have kind of a popular stuff the establishment is so incestuous now on the East Coast literary establishment in New York and Washington and in academia and so on that you need figures like me from outside who aren't this kind of crackpot I'm not kind of Annie Oakley figure I think okay kind of sharpshooter yeah I don't want to live in New York City you want to live Philadelphia yeah exactly I don't even live in the suburbs where I can listen to people in the shopping mall and find out what's going on on the streets what are they telling you is going on you want to hear what how ordinary people live let's see when I first came on the scene four years ago no like you know my friend Lauren Hutton said to me move to New York no no New York is the center of the universe and I say no no you're dead isn't intellectual the minute you move to New York why is that because you only see other people who agree with you okay now there be other famous people III don't go to parties I go maybe one party per year you know who lives in New York rush limbaugh here now okay then here's he's not invited a party oh no come on now mark now Barbara Walters house yeah how's that yeah a little more now in the last year it's true it's true it's true in the last year he has been okay he's sort of you'll accept him on the scene now had lunch at 21 if dinner is 20 what there was a period there often for optic fairly recently when he was really awesome sighs can I come in I know I'm telling the truth but then he has a point if people been listening to Rush Limbaugh not necessarily listen Green with him they would have not had been so shocked at the Republicans sweep which I've been predicting for years people were reading policy for the last few years I'm not surprised at all about what happened I've been warning that progressive politics that I agree with has been spiritual empty for years okay we have spawn Newt Gingrich okay we must take responsibility for it are you proud of it no I'm not happy because I we have a new kind of regime which is not an all sympathetic to art in the least they don't seem to be very libertarian either yeah I know it's no no all right but who's to blame Clinton whom I look forward to voting for again or you know no she's made so many mistakes it'd be the Peron please of the White House I'll give me a break no you don't like I liked her in the beginner left in the beginning but sure but she's made a lot of errors listen Clinton are the Democrats made I was Democrats so many mistakes okay there if Clinton had made the changes he promised like what care reforms that what you want is a libertarian no one as stripping down of the bureaucracy I want like literally 60% of bureaucracy everywhere to be to be play this game all bureaucracies all bureaucracies in a canoe or anywhere else spawn more bureaucracy and there have to be a period of you come to come through and have the guts to fire people did you once say that you are a woman with the soul of a gay man yeah impersonating a woman that's right well now you know in the new book I've got a memoir of four of the six gay men who've had a huge huge impact on me two of them are dead from AIDS and I what is it about gay men that attracts you it's amazing I don't get along with lesbians at all I get along with I get along with straight women and gay men I don't get along about your love relationships what are they with well well well all the women that I've been involved with have always been a bisexual experience in my current flame Allison Maddox I've been with almost two years now she said she's a bisexual experience also like most relationships I believe in monogamy I'm Italian I'm very loyal oh yes oh absolutely Oh My yes absolutely yeah what would you do if you discovered otherwise just otherwise I would cry yeah I would kill the other person I would always protect my lover I would I would haven't been done against it give me the sense of Madonna yeah doesn't like you to say this and I've met her but never had her on this broadcast I'm told that I'm told it may not be her feelings that to say to her that she's a marketing genius she doesn't like that because she wants to be thought of as a musician and that somehow if you say she's a marketing genius that suggests that some hair her savvy about the market has compensated for her absence of musical talent and also her absence for innovation and all of those kind of things it's all marketing and advertising and some understanding of the selling of sexuality if you say do you believe that about her do you believe that she's a genuine businesswoman was Joan Crawford okay I don't I I think she's a major artist as well she's a profound impact on popular music she's never been honored with a Grammy shame shame on the Grammys for that she's also created a persona the Madonna you created an persona what is it has guided you in doing that what's it about first of all you have to remember okay that I am 47 years old I was totally unknown until five years ago okay so people think that somehow that you know I mean I wrote a book for it's like 20 years I was writing that book it was rejected by seven New York houses okay you know I I'm the overnight success that took 20 years okay so what's the difference it might teach my student don't know okay who have been in the classroom with me for 23 years I'm the same person okay i television I am in the classroom when I was not known so when people reporters asked my students I'd known you 10 years ago they just the same what is it you did at Bennington in 1980 when I got fired yes fight at a college dance and I got fired a the woman or a man dinner or a female student it was a student it wasn't one of my students no she took the punch at me and then we were fighting and it was like a big brawl and oh yeah and it was every year was something there I kick this women in the rear end Oh 0:01 scandal where's that come from I'm Italian okay I'm out of control I'm an auto control person okay I don't I don't do well in institutions I really don't know sixties person that's what Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich are running against 60 that's what you need me on the scene okay to show that what what what Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich are talking about in the culture they're seeing they are diagnosing illegitimate ills in the culture but they're but they're prescription for our cure is wrong okay what I'm saying in vamps and tramps here is a radical 60s answer to those legitimate gripes about the direction of Western culture from yes the only problem no whatever one may think of miss Parker's problem of education reform with world religions the core of her curriculum and mythology indistinguishable from Hollywood PR one must admit that she's having more fun than most academics as she out as she acts out flies about and out shouts the object of our she positions herself with Ross Perot Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern who with our quote raging ego mania and Balto comic persona turned towards the loopy helping restore free speech in America comic camp outspoken Palio throws an absurd shoe into the ponderous wheels of academia that's right you like that agree with all of it for me no I think I think most people from the sixties would agree with me that the spirit of fun and play our crew that's crucial for any true creativity okay let me just dis continues the only problem is that Miz Thalia demands that we take her clowning series oh well this is from one of the professors at the Ivy League okay Richard L Fischer professor of English at the University of Pennsylvania but nobody Alan Ginsberg who might who might remember to Revere somebody would just or probably Picasso they would just sit on the floor and play with children okay I'm like pancake first I like you're eight years old that is the source that is a source of real ideas okay we have too many pompous fools okay in the world today the great Zen master the great Hindu monks in old age lay on the banks of the Ganges well number one I want to achieve massive reform and a khadeem that that was the 60s mission okay we so far we fail because most of sixties people did not go on in professional schools I'm having a huge impact on the young that's what people don't realize I'm the young man high school not young I'm liberating people to say again about art I love that okay I admire that that is great and so on I mean the culture has gone down the tubes here my mentor Harold Bloom and I agree on that however Harold is older than me and he he dismisses popular culture I am a product of the popular culture of the 60s I love rock and roll I love television that you want to be a shining star of popular culture you love the lights and you love the glare into it because that's my natural style you see the ease which I pass into popular culture comes what I mean you know I look when I started out people think I sought the media for one year sexual persona I sold and sold and sold from Yale pressed my picture was not on it I was unknown there was no publicity okay the media discovered me I wasn't out there marketing myself okay and they began calling me up and coming to see me okay and they found they said hey she's a hoot go see her like that okay whatever I have I have earned as much as Madonna has there's no big play and I have now of course you know I I'm associated with New York public so you want to be come hook or crook the most listen to what well the thing is I want to liberate dr.oz yourself I want to liberate young people to find their own voices much like the way the way Marshall McLuhan did for us in the 60s or or Allen Ginsberg or Gnomeo Brown the message yes that's right I'm the successor to Marshall McLuhan there's no doubt NASA's Marshall McLuhan has there been an academic who has who can go who can go back and forth between the worlds of scholarship in the world of media no I just want to see what women are heroines for you well st. Teresa of ávila the great Spanish saint with totally reformed and the convents and fought with the bishops and the Pope Annie Oakley is a great hero in for me the young Katharine Hepburn Dorothy Parker Mary McCarthy I love them there's just some new letters from between Dorothy I mean I mean Mary McCarthy and who which sort of suggest to you that had fax machines and telephones we probably would not there are no letters left anymore yes correct what's the stance in this thing I mean you're trying to tell us something here about physical force or imitating Diana Rigg of the Avengers what a huge impact on me and I have a knife strapped to my hip you see in a Marine Corps jacket they're from the Army Navy story and I'm saying this is the in-your-face feminism the militant Amazon feminism of the late 60s they disappeared it's them extinct okay and the Gloria Steinem brand of white bread genteel New York establishment feminism took over okay I belong to memory Valerie Solanas to shot Andy Warhol okay right scum decided by cutting up man I'm from that crackpot Iran the late 60s okay and that's why I look so weird but none of us that are left anymore I don't think you look weird watch I've got some popular magazines I mean this is Vanity Fair yeah interesting what Dominic dong la and the oj obsession murder and Gustad the enduring draw of Evangeline Bruce rock and roll bad vibes music Warner Music Charles Barkley now Madonna loves male basketball player yes you football is my is my fanatical sports and in fact you believe that women are deprived because they don't play football and understand football you want to make your way through the hostile workplace you have to study football offense and defense I love them I love it I've learned a lot about how to like tackle people I've learned how to how to strategize how to plan okay if I were to play you ever played football before I would play either free safety roaming the field following the ball and a laugh okay out of nowhere or I will play tight end okay getting the ball over your shoulder and a lap knocking people down and go over the goal line but not nothing like a quarterback view that's a little I played catcher and Sanders you're like I love him primetime Sanders and do you prefer in the Super Bowl well by the time this airs we'll be because I love Dallas and I have a mug from Dallas Cowboys I have a pillow from Dallas Cowboys here is the vanity pair this is going to be the sex symbol I mean tell me where sexuality is in America today this is going to be the male sex symbol understand me rather retro Brad Pitt is Hollywood's ultimate sex symbol and this is Rolling Stone magazine and this is in fact you're happy today I'm happy today yes I won't be happy until until I manage to totally reform academia you'll take another 20 years how about your social and flowering absolutely flowering hard to make you met this two years ago yes poly and low poly that'll be the next book poly and love great to have you back all right great to be your tongue thank you we thank you for watching us and joining us this evening look forward to seeing you next time see you then [Music] [Music] [Music]

Channel: miedqy0

Views: 55,047

Keywords: camille paglia, charlie rose

Id: 4M4HPOgwXRU

Length: 32min 57sec (1977 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 12 2018