BotR / Forgotten Weapons Collaboration! 4 Annoying Gun Myths

oh I'll start because he's busy drinking thanks for tuning in to another video on both forgotten weapons and bloke on the range we are here in Switzerland and I was coming over and figured well we should get together and film something an excellent idea and drink something indeed so we have glen ross all the reserve a space ID single malt so which you brought thank you very much pleasure this should be very tasty nothing better to go with scotch than discussing obnoxious gun myths something my channel does quite alone and something that continuously arcs me so so many things of how did this nonsense get so stuck in so many people's heads and here we are dealing with myths seventy five years after their creation mmm there's something weird about the way that information was distributed well pre-internet yeah that if it got in the right place you could get sticky and you just we still today never hear the end of it and it's still sticky and a lot of these single sources you go to Wikipedia and they've got some information that you think's a bit myth like a bit iffy you click through to link and it's one of these sources yes so let us start with that famous one one that I have flawed to death and it's already on my channel and I have my colleague the chap running in and out of the range from around my my previous Fiat well it's a lien car to go with my top it's a lien m1 you beat that one to death and so I don't have to exactly there you go taking one for the team this is of course the myth of the m1 ping the idea that the m1 of course makes this cool distinctive cheap noise when it ejects its sheet metal clip when it's empty and it is well known that this will get you killed by the Japanese the Germans the Koreans the Chinese I think that's pretty much everyone that we fought well we the Americans fought with the m1 but absolutely I'll get you killed on the streets right unless you're super clever at which point you can according to comments under my video so you can tap it on your helmet or throw it at your helmet or rock rock or pray that the floor or throw it on the rifle is enough the other one I heard is you could tap your mug on your helmet that was a particularly City one given that your mug is in a pouch underneath the water bottle so I'm not quite sure how you get to it and I tested this by tapping a and I mean you mug oh my god and it doesn't go maybe it goes dunk and someone in the comments was very very hurt that it was a Swiss Army bucket not the American one that I'm sure makes a total huge difference yes of course the idea is if you make that pain noise when you're not out of ammunition the enemy will inevitably jump up from wherever they are and go to kill you but you'll be able to get them by surprise yeah there are so many things wrong with this I well you know where to start you already okay start middle and end on this yeah well let's let's start with this if you're close enough to even consider hearing the ping you are in the middle of a pretty serious firefight and let's just say that a week or so ago when I was distracted by filming I forgot to put my hair defenders on and I fired around a 308 from my minty Spanish Mauser that was a mistake one round yeah imagine you'd be firing that rifle a lot and other people are firing rifles at you there's supersonic cracks from bullets passing relatively close how close are you going to be a lot of people say oh you could be in the building that just makes it worse by the gunnel an indoor range yeah the pistols noisy yeah and if you're in a building maybe there's a decent chance that the guy in front you has a Thompson submachine gun that he's touching off in there - yes so yeah the first problem is no one's actually really going to hear that thing in combat conditions mhm and then the second problem is the idea that let's say somehow magically they do they're going to jump up and get to you before you can reload Oh before your buddy who's next to you because this I mean this this isn't call of duty on the Xbox here wait what did i sorry I went there was that a game I thought that was like a accurate reenactment of the entire war hmm well that would explain a lot that would explain I can reload an m1 pretty darn fast yeah we did a few a few shot to shop trials and various videos and pop from a few comedy fumbles I left in the videos we were looking at four to six seconds a family one around six seconds a nice clean one from a pouch I mean people accused me of doing it from a table or something but it was from a pouch you rip open the pouch work it in tap the ball forward I mean this is banking that's sort of right yeah you're not running very far the idea that you could get out of a hidden position or a covered position cover any substantial amount of ground is ludicrous the whole thing is who even came up with this stupid idea the first written reference to this that I found on my crowd I did a video specifically to crowdsource this and I had some sorry Cobra I'm awful with names I can't remember who it was I think it's red Josh someone something comes to mind provided me with a whole list of links to Second World War II a Korean War our lessons learned document sort of sharing the knowledge where where soldiers would would write tips and tricks of how the enemy operate how we can operate better has all sorts of things like offered the in one there's even an office of the moaning that the men are not using their slings even when they could kiss who'd want to tie themselves into a rifle in combat and limit the movement anyway we have found the earliest reference and strangely enough it's the one mentioned by Wikipedia as muscles is so remarkably they sort of got something right although wrong but they got the best they go best source for the wrong fat yeah the right source of the Rome fact and it is Roy F Dunlap ordinance went up front I'll be honest that made me a little sad because there's some really good interesting information we're done that's a cool guy yeah and it's a shame to discover that he's the one who started this nonsense yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff for those who haven't come across Roy Dunlap he was a gunsmith in civilian life and at the start of the war he joined the US Marine Corps and he spent part of the war Gunn plumbing and part of the war was an interesting money was one of the islands he landed his own fishermen he'd got his back up about something it was sapien might be psychopath it's it is somewhere I'm sure but then he went on to North Africa I think well that was first okay I think he was that he was there first he and then he he got his backup about gun plumbing and decided he'd just be a normal infantryman for a while so his the things he experienced personally are quite interesting there's all sorts of stories about maintaining rifles in the jungle with guys being left in in contact with the enemy too long corrosive ammunition the ndm-1 rifle m1 yeah yeah that one said should apparently I should be pronouncing is in Quebec war fashion and I'll attempt as go home hmm there we go anyway but particularly the DM ones were particularly adapted to deal with crow so munition the the piston head is stainless they make the gas piston stainless the gas long I'm not sure certainly the early yeah I once got really mad got much got problematic but the VAERS were apparently horrible absolutely horrible and they weren't well-suited to corrosive ammunition and maintenance in the fishin to being horrible yeah that's a very mean opinion that mr. McCullough boobs anyway um what mister doesn't move yeah the thing about Dunlap is he really knew his stuff he was a professional gunsmith and when he had hands-on personal experience with some of this stuff he was writing really insightful interesting things normally when you get this sort of first-hand account it's from a guy who was just a basically a volunteer or a conscript infantryman and I hate to say it but most of those guys really didn't know anything about the guns that they were using and so you get these first-hand accounts that take one anecdote and extrapolate everything from it where a guy like Dunlap knew enough about guns to recognize what was relevant and what wasn't the problem comes when he starts talking about things that you didn't actually see him yourself but heard someone else to say yeah so this seems to come to page 294 for those who wish to for quality very tastefully bound book don't know so I shall politically correct to size this the Japanese on Guadalcanal learned that the ping of an ejecting m1 clip meant a momentarily empty rifle and American infantryman died because of it Aberdeen was in a slight furor for a while trying to silence the noise make plastic clips etc there's two problems with this one he wasn't on Guadalcanal as far as with me and if I've interpreted his dates that he's mentioned in here correctly he was in fact in North Africa when the campaign was being fought in well canal the second thing is that if Aberdeen had ever made any form of plastic like even as a one-off people would be 3d printing them yes I'm sure some websites somewhere about weird obscure guns would have had one of those classic Aberdeen pictures of their experimental had three of their experimental plastic clip all of the Aberdeen experiments from the period from the banal up to the crazy stuff where they modified an mg42 to take a belt vertically and all those other crazy prototypes and m1 that takes two clips you know more than me I've seen the rifle they did cool yeah but they didn't make plastic clips no I don't even think there's enough room for plastic clips made by the plastic technology of the day yeah that would be yeah well what they didn't do it that's a fantasy he made it up well he didn't make it up he probably heard it from someone yeah who he thought was an authoritative source and so he repeated it in his book but no now it's all over Wikipedia it's all over everywhere it's all over books as I read as a kid in the pre-internet right days repeated over and over again and it was even brought to the attention of the US military and we know this right because there's a 1953 off the top of my head sort of survey lessons learned document done by the US Army Post Korea dealing with the various aspect of various weapons do we like this do we like that should be in one beer or two bales three beers why should we have to be ours because one of them's going to be out of action is any one time people thought huh weird but we know it was such a fantastic firearm things like that bonus and one and there are there are two specific things relating to the m1 and noise and they asked us sort of false dichotomy question why they give two options that aren't really necessarily related and that it was is the m1 pink and aid to remembering to reload because I mean if you're panicking on a range you feel the difference between the repo you feel that the bolt doesn't go forward it feels different but if you are paying more attention to the enemy than to your own rifle yeah you might not notice it and quite a few answer yeah it's a nice little it's loud enough when it's right in front of your face right and it's there's visual cue yeah thing comes flying out of your gun thank goodness for the chain because I wouldn't have note if it wasn't counting and so they asked is it an aid to knowing you're out or is it a hindrance because the enemy take note of it now it wasn't zero that said no we think it's a hindrance because the enemy take note of it but the vast majority will say the other didn't care or and honestly the guys who said yes it is a problem that's an example of those first-hand accounts that are unreliable because what probably happened is they had a coincidental I fired my last round and the gun went ping and right then the other guy came around the corner all pumped up right when their their accounting intent to something that was actually coincidence there's a lot of coincidence particularly you got a lot of events happening and there's a lot of confusion and you've got tunnel vision and and your life is literally on the line you're going to you're going to very vividly remember things that seem to be important yeah and the other one regarding noise though was the safety catcher yeah now the safety capsule and then one is particularly noisy it kind of is it's it's a click but it's a pretty loud abrupt yeah well the sort of the hole that that part of the receivers kind of Hollow and there's a metal plate over it and it's got a big heavy powerful date on it so that you don't accidentally knock it off I mean it's the air of people walking around with their fingers in there in the trigger guard so they put a big fat spring on that but that big fat spring means that when you push it forward when when when it goes over the little little kam hump he goes look yeah actually quite loud and there were a surprising number of people who responded yeah actually this is kind of a problem because in an average situation when all is quiet it's suddenly you've got half a dozen plus guys going cut cut cut cut cut leek all on one side of a track see that is plausible yeah this it is you're not in a firefight there's not bangs going off all over the place already if you can maybe is deliberately trying to listen for signs of people young around that in principle and this you've been in a firefight in the few hours previously you're not got ringing in your ears or or any of the other problems that seems a lot more plausible and indeed if I correctly more people answered yeah that's an issue than answered now don't worry about it yeah so uh so thank you for what you and your viewers for tracking down the origin point of this really obnoxious persistent myth if anyone has a written trace earlier I said this on the on the video when I crowdsource I really want to find out about it my generally my policy is it's not about being right or wrong it's about ultimately finding out what the truth is absolutely yeah and then saying okay cool and if it means you change your mind change your mind there's not gonna there's very little chance for much earlier than that because that was written in 46 v6 we didn't really start actually using the thing in combat until 41 42 yeah I mean unless there's another lessons-learned magazine that didn't come out and write there isn't listed under under my under my video wherever I crowdsource this then this must be patient zero for those who enter pathology yes I think that's an excellent metaphor there mmm yeah no should we use Dunlap to segue into number two which is possibly his his fault as well go for it so apparently the Bren large machine gun is too accurate oh you mean the Brennan sniper rifle it's an automatic sniper right oh yeah because they wanted to put a scope on the side and everything yeah you know you just single loaded it has the magazines in the way and you can't see your sights with the make single motives and it's basically a sniper rifle oh yeah yeah to accurate that is one I also hear all the time it's repeated that yeah the Bren was not an effective machine gun because it was just too darn accurate yes my weapon is too accurate said no one ahead now you fired light machine gun I find a commercial brand and a real proper Bren I've fired a bunch of light machine guns I think anybody who has actually fired a machine gun will understand and recognize that this story is complete horse because you cannot even if it was let's say it was an actual literal laser beam perfectly exactly the same place every time the bouncing around that you get from a light machine gun when you fire it will give you a nice open coma fire yep it is just I you know the m1 ping I think has some level of plausibility to it that well I guess if you didn't really think about it you could see how that's true the only way that this Bren gun being too accurate myth is even remotely understandable as if you have never fired a light machine gun before yeah yeah and you brought up a really good point when we were discussing this earlier then if it even if all of these things were were wrong and it was too accurate there's a very simple solution just hold it looser and it'll bounce around more and you'll get a wider cone of fire yeah now once again you have done way more in-depth research on this than I have and you dug up one of the british training manuals a bunch of them yeah which talked about what they were actually trying to go for with the Bren and it was it was accuracy yeah this is here is the nice 48 so it's the post Second World War I've got a bunch of others from the early days why does that not surprise me you think I'm like yeah so what was interesting to me there's a little diversion it's so it's not only about the weapons themselves it's how they use the ergonomics of them the ergonomics of carrying things for them and I've been working on in fact I have a house buildings 450 foody in front of ii german it's basically a training pamphlet for the infantry which has got a load of an mg34 I was a bit over its 1941 so it's still empty thirty four doctrine how it was how the rifle the weapons we use doctrinally how the ammunition is carried that sort of the ergonomics of carrying the image this this soft fascinates me it also shows that one is a huge nuri I find it fascinating to in some ways it becomes more interesting than the guns themselves fairly quickly to sub to a 7 degree because that's a lot of what dictates how the things were actually used yeah even if there were variations from them and most of the armies would would modify their techniques as they as they went along I mean if you if you look at the British LMG manual from right but the adoption they've got a completely different distribution of ammunition around the section than the later and then this one here 1948 is the distillation of everything they learned during the Second World War and it's also a lot longer because the the the second warpath was tended to be a bit shorter of quick get it or print it out to people so they can have to have time to read it before they get shot yeah so the post-war ones ten manuals tend to be rather more extensive rather more information on and and they make the point that it does have a narrow cone of fire which means you have to aim it properly you can't count on just this this random burst effect hitting your target for you yeah yeah effectively you want what you want to hit at the center of the kind of fire and interestingly there's notes on zeroing them whereas a rifles in British practice unlike German practice rifles were zeroed to the individual okay provided they could shoot at least an 8-inch group which isn't that impressive but this is talking a conscript army I think we'll get into some hackers see ya in a moment but the Bren had to be zeroed so that any member of the section could fire it and it wouldn't be too far off unless they were personally - for office from had to be zero for an average for an average man in the section and they were individually 0 when mg 42s there's no provision for it but the kind of fires kind of yeah I did bombing pinch shoot with a 93 actually and 100 meters and the kind of fire 100 meters was ever so slightly larger than the bowling pin so I should be three and four round bursts that with splashing outside the bowling pin but doctrinally they expected a good shot with a Bren on single shot to shoot four inches okay which is that there's really quite good that's basic that's only a little bit less accurate than a sniper rifle yeah I'm the the British sniper standard was 3-minute yeah well turn it off five inches right that's 200 and but four inches was the above-average standard because the the the British gauged grouping standards to gauge how good people were you are either a four-inch grouper an eight inch group for a 12 inch pretty pony if you want to target a grouper you had to keep doing the meter training until you were you were in the kitchen yeah because until you could groups 12 inches you couldn't keep all your shots reliably on a 48 inch target at 300 yards okay what they were what they were looking for but once you once you switch the lever to fun it just goes way out the window and I haven't got the right manual with me but the the sprite when fighting bursts of a bread is wider than the videos which makes perfect sense because the Brennan's fired off a bipod and the Vickers is fired off of a very heavy very solid and very precisely adjustable tripod hmm the Vickers is the one that if any of this myth were true you'd expect it to be true about the Vickers where you would imagine and this I can actually see some plausibility and because on a Vickers tripod that guns locked in place yeah and so you don't have the ability to just freely swing it like you do with a light machine gun and I can see it being someone being I can see someone complaining that the cone of fire is too small and it's I have to be turning knobs and adjusting wheels in order to move slightly to hit my target but you don't hear about that in fact you hear nothing but praise about the Vickers so where this concept came from is according to Wikipedia in a board moment I was looking something up on Wikipedia and it repeats this bring-bring wise Bren gun is too accurate reference click oh no don't and he says that the the lightweight mark three of my four brands were intended to improve the kind of fire by having short passwords they were lightweight versions for being lightweight any waiter yes or herbal and stuff and then when they converted them to send point sixty NATO post war they put long barrels on them so irrespective of what the receiver was marked at Birth on a complete side note this is also a hint that a good case study and one should not take other take things at face value that one does not actually know mmm yeah if see the thing with Roy Roy Dunlap is if he had ever actually done any serious shooting with a brand he had ever he had all the knowledge and experience to be able to give it a proper assessment and understand that this notion was complete bollocks yeah you're starting to get me using British compressed Christ yeah I mean this is [ __ ] this is so much interesting Bobby the book yes read the book buy the book read the book it is is brilliant but it's it's fascinating it's memoirs and technical information but then he's got a photo of an mg34 this not of an mg34 is of the soliton predecessor and i probably can't find it right now but there's all this there's also some funny funny funny little errors going on there but it's worth it for his man was what he did during the war right and then the gunsmiths related stuff where he was genuinely expert I mean yeah all sorts of fascinating things like he landed on Saipan or wherever it was with a sea stocked 1903 Springfield she did himself he did himself hold of the ship basically yeah he went and uh and found one and stopped it up properly as a gunsmith because according to him and this is this is information that is entirely believable because it's well within his personal sphere and he has no reason to lie no reason to repeat they say because it's the only thing he knows and it's his area of expertise as well yeah the the most of them most of the night sensory sprinkles were badly stocked up and that's about the worst thing you can have for a rifles accuracy is a badly stocked up rifle people forget that the the wood metal interface is the most important thing to accuracy once you've got a barrel that is of reasonable quality and we are now going to change the battery in the camera we'll be right back all right so we're back so back willowy badly stocked rifle at least a thing Android done that went ashore with a scant sea stock on his own rifle because he went on one put it in and did it right yep only there was a shortage of Springfield clips because we're right on the changeover from Springfield to mm ones so he says he went to show with five rounds in the rifle to charges of five rounds each in his belt and then pockets stuffed with you Sam Oh fantastic you know that's the sort of thing that the official history doesn't really tell you yes yes yes and it sort of renders typically its non-disposable son yeah yeah you know that's kind of like what we have sometimes today when you're trying to shoot something with weird expensive rare clips and you're like I got one don't lose it step on it you're over educated seems to be yeah all right also I have run out of scotch yep you haven't look I will in a tick oh my goodness you have run out of scotch what tragedy was not immediately remediated we're going through the sampler pack here yep the next one we have is a 1995 what appears to be a 15-year mm-hmm Glenn laughs yep apparently the 1995 is no longer available in large format it's only available in mmm so said the guy that sold it Thanks absolute [ __ ] there's a rather nice it's absolutely different to the previous one mm-hmm it's less sweet than the last one yeah let's just say this is like a famous grouse for the pages of medicine or we know what Famous Grouse is oh you you have to suffer Famous Grouse oh yeah well if you look down like the bottom shelf a better story when the UK's on the middle shelf so we're worried he went ashore with insufficient strength eclipsed yes one of many very interesting cool pieces little tidbits of anecdote that when in proper context are very interesting to read yeah so well the one thing that we forgot to mention about the brand hmm was not only did the British specifically they wanted it to be an accurate gun and they made light of the fact that it was accurate they emphasized that when shooting it you must hold it very tight in order to exploit that accuracy yep they were very insistent on tight holding so that so that the group that so that the the kind of fire was tight and was effective exactly the opposite of what they would have said if this too accurate craft was actually real to the point where they were still teaching a very oblique position with the rifle but they were teaching a very straight on position with the Bren so you get behind it get your toes into the dirt and yeah I mean the one thing the only one thing I don't like about the Brent is that White Pond should really look because it sort of locks I mean I am g42 bipod is just a horror is just it's just this flop being a horrible piece of pressed steel and it's sort of if you're if you're shooting it off the bipod you've got to choose where do I start leaning the bipod so is my first gonna track high right oh no or is it gonna track high then low and you've got to choose one no I mean you've got three buttons and you often see in in combat footage that they rest the barrel jacket on a log or something so that they don't have this thing right Alan and by the way one of the neat things about it got a recoil-operated unlike the 42 is that's basically a free float - not quite no quiet but you're not getting the deflection that you would if you were actually resting on the barrel itself not that it is that much of a difference with a rate of fire light weights follow that in a cone of fire like that and a cone of fire that doesn't even justify zero herbal sights no now you're getting a little harsh I think the 42 is are quite good it's great as a GPMG it's super it's totally clear why the Jones and others still use it it's a it's a superb GPMG let's not get into the lmg versa gpmg thing but it is a generalist right it is fire it is but the bipods a shocker the brim pipe lot half blocks you can push into it a certain amount but if you push too far it folds and and then you'll um yeah that's problem I've seen a range someone limp into it ends up with the bipod rifle no no no but you've got to learn just how much you can you can you can push into it but it's like a fire brent offhand I can't fire mg42 or found this things are heavy yeah really heavy you could do it if you were pressed if you were spiked like golf well if you had enough Russians charging at you you'd figure it out but you look at that pretty big yeah yeah so our third topic a third annoying thing that people still say to this day that is totally not true well fatigue what we go to when we go out to let's take a bit do let's do accuracy of service rifles in general with a few comments on particular ones that there are particular incorrect informations abounding on now with aside from a few exceptions with an iron sighted service rifle bolt-action or semi auto mobile to issue we're talking a normal accuracy of four to five ish mins of angle so those are those speak mower that four to five inches so a hundred yards if you think in metric google does good conversion for yes 2.5 centimeters to the inch so 5 x 2.5 12 and 1/2 centimeters at 100 meters i have 91 meter meter yard they're close enough to government work this is a standard of accuracy that in today's modern firearms market would be considered one step up from pure garbage mm-hmm you know if anyone the the typical new rifle buyer if you go out and buy a hunting rifle and discover that it shoots four or five minute of angle you would take it back and demand to know why they sent why they sold you the defective broken one yeah whereas if your Gewehr 98 or car 98 be the long ones shots 45 minutes of angle it would be actually on the towards the good side of average yeah this is totally normal and particularly for a conscript army where there's no massive focus on marksmanship there's not gonna hit anything anyway not gonna hit anything was slight disagreement meaning to be boring each other with agreement mostly we have a little little disagreement over this you might my view is the four minutes angle plot more fortified mins of a dollar if we want to be a bit generous and allow the Italians and the raffle car wins at let's say four to six anyway to to your taste this sort of thing normal vision is 20/20 which is means that you can resolve a pattern with one minute angle so if you make a letter the letter e on your on your opticians chart on the twenty twenty nine or for those in Europe the one point zero line the the bars of the II have a resolution or one minute angle I never actually you know that's really cool it's a petition that what you're going to say I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure on that but yeah normal vision is resolving more minute of angle could you could you add a reasonable combat distance see a reasonable combat target the is less than performance of angle and see it well enough to aim at it with the iron sights of a Second World War right well we happen to know that they were shooting the qualification was six hundred meters or six hundred yards so clearly they need a rifle capable of hitting whatever I happen to think of at six hundred yards right it's a question of whether you can see it and if it's a target on the range it is a target on a target frame versus actual moving hiding hiding darting helmet wearing camouflage target that's a different that's a different matter it's such a different matter and I think a lot of people if all you've ever shot are bull's-eyes it would be boot it would behoove you to get out there and actually take a look at some things that would be legitimate military targets yeah I mean when I shoot competition we use we use basically silhouette steel targets but we don't paint them yeah and that's on a standard dirt range and it's a fixed target we know where it is and we know exactly what shape it's a normal distinguishable shape even those targets can be excruciatingly difficult to see and that's at less than 200 yards yeah yeah the idea that that you're going to be firing at anything exceeding anything over two hundred yards is really extremely rare it's and and at 200 you may shoot at it but you won't hit it yeah if you are a standard infantry minute ya know that setre disagreement is I would really kind of like to have a rifle a bit better than five or six minute of angle well I would I because it does as a military because it does give the few guys who are able to exploit some accuracy in their rifle I'd like to have have that capability we we are above average shots a both of us and that's and and that's the difference and this is interestingly something that French got right but that's probably a topic for another time yeah I really love a two minute of angle right but I would love it okay though you won't particularly feel had an aperture site but just it's a little divergence back back to the four minute eight minute yeah twelve mid twelve minute grouping sad diverges back to our actual point it's uh it's it they had standard categories for guys who could only shoot twelve minute of angle and that's prone right yeah I'm a friend of a friend of mine who's Spanish did did his military service as it as it was in Spain and again they expected with it with a seventy hell you qualified it twelve inches that he said thirty centimeters and hundred meters that was that was deemed deemed militarily adequate although that's what they sent me al so you also have to actually get the rifle to fire all the rounds I guess it wasn't that lots of time up so yeah effect effectively it also seems to be relatively easy to build a rifle and cost-effective to build a rifle to a four to six four to five minute of angle standard it gets exponentially difficult to go beyond that and we're talking with World War one at World War two manufacturing standards yeah yeah today it's much easier because we have much better machine tools or rather we have much better controls on machine tools and remember everything that every gun company is making its making it peacetime yeah this isn't wartime rush production its that certainly not you know we're actively being bombed carpet bombed while we're trying to make rifles there's him you know your average modern hunting rifle has a lot of advantages going for it yeah and we wouldn't tolerate now what was tolerate and what a big problem in wartime was not the metal it was the timber there were shortages of timber I had to be dried the Germans played with laminates the Brits tried but because the the thing with the Brits died version is that we had at the time obligations in every single climactic zone on earth from the the Arctic wastes of Canada to hot and dry in Africa to hot and damp in India and the Far East and we needed things that would work adequately in all of those and okay the Germans had it pretty hot and pretty cold in Russia but laminates there Lana the stocks held up to that interesting diversion and your diversion one of the problems with the stern governor hmm was that the stocks would swell yeah in the recoil spring went into a hole in stallion the stock would swell up creep down on the recoil spring which then couldn't compress properly and the gun would stop working hmm because of the wood yeah wood is a big deal what is a big deal and on a number four the only two parts that hand-fitted is the wood to metal mmm boy Bob heads were only yeah but for an it for a normal infantry rifle they weren't particular fit for the sniper rifles they were in principle very finely fitted but then the the big deal with isn't with it with the with the number 40 sniper rifles is that they pulled off the rack rifles the particularly well at the first stage test now this was a a 100 feet test okay five shots from a machine rest and it was ladies that did this primarily originally with a sighting telescope rested on but later that just they got good enough to do through the ions and they had to shoot four out of five shots into a one-inch by 1.5 inch rectangle 1.5 B but it's cool because rifles always spread a bit more vertically then laterally and then 10% were tested it so one by one and a half inch sounds pretty good until you realize that was 100 feet yeah which would be 28 yard 28 meters 30 yards but in any case during three-year during wartime the number that were tested at it changed post-war I've got a post-war manual that is it's quite clear that post-war it was 10 of 10 shots of 10% to the rifles into 18 by 18 inches a square six hundred yards off top of my head wartime I think they tested 10% of 200 which had to go to about three or four minutes remember oh I'll look it up and I send it to you or put it at the bottom the the point we're getting at here is this was the sniper rifle and it was being held to a standard of about three-minute dozen bangle to the sniper rifles were all stocked up by Holland Holland they got walnuts toxin no matter what they were any of them that did the particularly well in the one inch by one and a half inch attack so a particularly tight group in that you remember I mean I rag on three round ribs all the time that 500 is not necessarily much better they are definitely better but not necessarily that much but they they pulled the good ones off the rack they sent them to Holland and they got a first choice good season presumably pre-war presumably walnut stock they were finally stopped because they had to have a fight group our two groups were rejected even though in principle is no there's no real difference and for the infantry rifles they had to hold the same standard but the the issue is is timber and there is aside from the number force that were free floated as a wartime emergency measure which I believe were mostly American ones and the lend-lease wants the the British inspectors have no rights when when the British government was purchasing from Savage we had inspectors in there as soon as it was lend-lease number for Mach 1 stars were given an official US designation on paper they will take what we don't and it's cheapest free so you'll yeah you'll you get you get it and I don't know off the top of my head and I thought I've never seen a reference to a book as to whether the lend-lease savage and other US manufacturers were subject to the same accuracy standards yeah we may not have been they may not have been simply because as anyone who is sport arised a number four or has got their grasp out brass patent and removed the muzzle bearing permanent before well no they don't shoot anyway here as well for refloated because with a barrel up light they benefit massively from even muzzle pressure and this is something i'm i've mentioned in the TSB video a bit shown in a video on my channel as well and a lot of clever goes into the stocking out of making light military barrels shoot straight the french took that very seriously to the point that the screws that you have to take out to remove the stock the four end on the MAS 36 have special screws in them so that you can't take it apart yeah because you the soldier are not qualified to properly replace that front end and embed it incorrectly and in the British I mean the British military and I think the Germans as well you were not allowed to take the rifle at all of the metal because by taking it out putting it back in you are loosening it and that is one of the unfortunate floors with the N one breakdown bed young system it all I'll do a video on this at some point on the one hand is mechanically awesome that you can have this short little receiver and unleash and this and this incredibly clever clamping system but the problem is that every time you need to clean the rifle and recruits will be cleaning they're taking their rifles out all the Consular constantly every time you take it out you loosen the bedding yep and at a certain point in the metal slides in the bedding and done that actually has an anecdote about qualifying with some sloppy nasty and one that shot this horrific a large group but no one was expecting soldiers to shoot tight groups so he qualified with a nasty sloppy and one that should have been restocked a long time ago yeah so so our point is people think because we can make very accurate rifles today and because you can squeeze most of that accuracy out of them without too much difficulty from am interest at a shooting range on a nice sunny day that thus during World War two people must have had the same certainly snipers would have have the same quality but aim capable of the same standards the reality is no shoot first off shooting in any sort of real fuel conditions much less combat conditions is very different from shooting off of benchrest the rifles they have we're nowhere near as accurate as the rifles that we produce today and I would say on the best day a really good sniper is it's going to have a slow level of a typical avid civilian enthusiast yeah they just didn't get over elves right they didn't do a lot of practice that your standard infantry we're either volunteers or conscripts who had minimal history with firearms even in the United States where we'd like to think that we have this fantastic great tradition of civilian marksmanship and even then well you can go to a shooting range today and see it mostly the people out there shooting aren't actually all that good and they didn't get very much training before going into combat because there simply wasn't time in fact we talked about this earlier today there's only one group we can come up with we're a military really took this concept of we just had a bad experience in a war we need good marks seriously good marksmanship standards on our infantry and then actually did it it was you guys it was the British for about 15 years between the end of the Boer War and basically when the BEF got massacred by artillery in World War one yeah those guys it was a professional army they had serious standards they had lots of practice time and they had guys who were lifelong soldiers and they were very insistent that the point of the training was to to achieve a high average standard of shooting not just to train a couple of shots right yeah so it was really it was to get the average level up yep and it showed it because in the retreat from for a mother all great British ultimate victory start with a retreat or a massacre and the First World War was no exception and obviously we appreciate when when when the Americans decided that having their shipping sunk by by the Germans it's not so much fun and maybe they should come come join in too but you look at the retreat from moms and you look at you you you look at the veteran Scouts on both sides the the BDF were massively massively outnumbered they didn't have a particularly high issue of machine guns as higher than myth has it but this had not been a focus of the British military the way it had been with the Germans no it's a funny thing with the Brits were often an early adopter we were very early adopter of the maxim gun we had an awful lot of Maxim's in forty five five seven four fifty I was gonna say you're an early adopter of the maxim gun you bought a maxim gun very early hey max and I'm gonna use them in colonial conflicts yeah massively in colonial conflicts and then by the time while one was running I reused them fairly extensively in the bowl or estimate boys to it to a certain degree by World War one it was not cricket to the European warfare really right but keep imagine giving it loaded with the 5-7 450 max in that would be an experience that would be yeah experience if anyone's got one the closest thing you're going to get I have a acquaintance I knew who has since passed but he was working on a maxim gun you know 11 millimeter gras close enough which and I think he was probably gonna try and get it running in 4570 as well yeah if he could get the links and mm everything sorted but never did I know someone that has the old access to northern pelts and things in there and in the various odd calibers yes during the time mostly fulfillment and third one one day I shall persuade him to let me bring the cameras along definitely yeah anyway aside from the BEF in the run-up to World War one nobody else put in the the serious time and effort to create real marksmanship and then even with the B if you look at the the number of rounds per you issued in training compared to model to the modern amounts of ammunition it's still pitiful but you must understand that the two hundred fifty odd rounds the the the the pre-first World War British soldiers got was masses compared to what their Continental conscripted cousins got yeah absolutely masses way more than the US to us marksmanship standards a great one to look at is the the Army in the late 1800s between the Civil War and the turn of the century things like the Gatling guns were often totally not used because they didn't have enough training ammunition of Wadud hmm to even fire them it was we have so little ammunition that we'd rather give every soldier five rounds for the year to practice with then take 200 to let one guy get a try at this gallant gun yeah it's it's it's something people underestimate always is is amounts of amounts of ammunition for training yeah and when I was doing this preparation for the comparing Second World War UK versus versus Germans the cheese for shift here they don't even say how much training how much ammunition is available for training they say how it should be split up but they say that the Ministry will tell you how much ammunition you've got the training and the that means not much not much and they did through three types of practice they did what's called school shooting sort of bullseye type of stuff but sometimes on a slightly figuri target but still on ring targets effects sure she's since or so combat school shooting which is not specifically defined it seems to be something that was organized more at local level and then give X G so fighting shooting which is more in the field but the number of practices they've got here there and this is pre war this is my brief or everything's for with updates up to about 37 38 it's not an impressive number of rounds and it's an incredibly unimpressive standard of shooting requite pass not something mission basically if you could get three rounds out of five in the black of the target in about that depending on what year of service you were at 150 or 200 then you were you were good to go well we really care about us that you're able to carry the ammo cans for the mg34 because that's what does the bulk of the fighting yeah and if you if you if you add up if you look at the number of people in a in a German infantry squad and add up the theoretical firepower the machine gun has more rounds per minute than everyone else but together put together easily yeah human firing it the more relaxed rate yeah and then in any case they're just to as a point on general accuracy and I'm sorry this is in metric so all those who thinking inches we've done some interest of yeah very less using metric that's our little Canadian and if the Continental Brothers we have a table of these of the expected accuracy of a long Mauser 98 so give MIT a to a cart it'd be and the coyote K is not significantly larger in the spread and the Germans like and the Swiss actually is well liked to like to think in 50 percent figures because statistically speaking mathematically speaking you can't actually define the size of a group a full group because a million shots there's a statistically they'll be allowed out by somewhere which will create a group so what they tended to do was say okay fifty percent of shots will go into such and such a height 50 percent into such and such a width and these these figures are particularly good because they have a radius as well so we're expecting and so a typical long miles of 98 to put 50% of its shots into a radius of 10 centimeters at 300 meters so a diameter of 20 centimeters so that's about 8 inches letters around Lister to engineering okay call it eight inches at 300 yards okay now it's about two and a half minute hulls bad I'm half of you shows yeah now if you that's the classic way by the way to make a group for the internet mmm as you fire a 10-round group and then pick the best five that is literally on the accuracy standard for the Germans yeah it's like oh it's flight to fly luckily what what they do is they explain to us there's this the statistics of this and if you double the radius you get 94% syrup four percent of shots so if you fire 20 rounds you expect 19 of them into that so you're expecting 19 of 20 rounds into a 40 centimeter group at 330 yards we're just gonna be 16 inches at 300 which is a little over a 5 minute of angle group yeah and that and that is what they're considering normal now to bring it back to sniper rifles the number 40 is all had to parts of shooting testers seven out of seven shots into five inches at 200 yards which is two and a half north okay the Germans seem to have made a little attempt to select particularly accurate rifles at the factory and they would just pull rifles off the rack that's not a scope on them that's for the Japanese did that's what I think most probably it is I don't know about the Russians but then I don't read Russian so I can't look at original sources I suspect the intent was the this rifle isn't there to be more accurate it's there so the soldier can see targets to engage them because that is the biggest shortcoming of an iron sighted rifle hmm you know we guarantee you can't don't matter how accurate the rifle is you can't hit it if you can't see it yeah I'm not suddenly the point of the zetas 41 the little one right five power that's a hugely underappreciated scope yeah I really like those that yeah Jeff Cooper invented it didn't you know I'm sure what antelope sorry I've just I just blaspheme against accent yeah of Li if you're interested in karate I snipers by Steve laws collect a great book it's worth the money his translations from German when I read them I have to sort of literally translate them back into German to work out what was when he actually meant what he actually meant yeah but otherwise they're that they're excellent books and here's a massive fanboy but he doesn't hide the walls okay uh one of the warts in there is that the Germans were distinctly unhappy with the accuracy of the sniper rifles and there were reports coming back from the sniper schools believe if I remember correctly still in the day when they were issuing zennith forty ones and sniper rifles saying look these rifles are on average capable of six-inch groups even with even with a special shooting in ammunition and like it's what's going on what are you doing and then in the Russian campaign they were coming up with coming up against Mosin Nagant sniper rifles and anyone who's ever fired a modern sniper rifle with good ammunition should know that they're not bad for the standards of the day yeah for the standards of today but for back in the day they were very very good and the Germans were kind of jealous to the point at which Post DJ and Steve Laura actually has the front page of the letter written to Mouser saying look guys we want a new sniper rifle we want your pre-production models to do sixteen millimeters at 100 meters so that your production ones will do 70 and that roughly comes out that to an armored so it's basically we want something that is as good as a number forty it has to be a repeater but otherwise do what you want and if you want to change the caliber you can change the caliber Wow which is like you're in the middle of the top of total war that really highlights how how bad they went they had was and how much they really wanted shoot straight the-the-the they were a set that they assessed them as on average because there's always exceptions everything's on a bell curve right like I'm not saying that there's not there's not their worst any that were freaking laser beams words to live by there are always exceptions yeah everything's on bail code that they were capable 300 meters that are capable on average engaging the the chest target but not the head target and that is from one of the bad translations of Steven or translated back into German and then back in separation it really helps it really helps reading these books if you can speak a bit of German at least more than speed lookit because he did his own translations and the end to the M Europeans sorry there's nothing like feeling stupid will only speak one language and around people who speak like before mmm that might be the Scotch that might be speaking well we are going a bit long here but we still have one more to go there it is British one so God's earth Queen and the various versions of the mad minute myth oh and for for which mr. Ian Hogg and the Osprey publishing series bear a lot of responsibility yeah now this is something if you're interested in giving it loads of the bolt-action rifle I do a certain amount of that on my channel go look at British muzzle loaders as well know Rob's very much into this yep very cool channel very very cool channel very much go go go watch these videos he's very much into the drill in the uniforms as well is lesser never trust beyond the ergonomics but it looks great on video it does look great over here that killed that kid was it with Canadians and kills I hadn't killed you ever kill yeah yeah I started playing the bagpipes when I was 10 years old cool yeah kilts are fantastic I won't ask any further mr. arenas muzzleloaders and I both know it so indeed I have never despite having a Scottish surname which not real I have never I killed Nick bloke look anyway anyway um yes there's various versions of this so I start with a reality of a myth let's go with the myth let's go isn't it there's so many versions of the myth the classic one which I believe because it was in a lookbooks was that British professional soldiers infantry cavalry pre World will one have to shoot at least fifteen aimed rounds a minute at 300 yards for their pay at least 15 runs a minute there's the Ian Hogg version of the myth that comes up an awful lot which is that they had to shoot 15 rounds a minute more than 15 rounds a minute on a 12-inch target at 300 yards now to be fair this does mesh really quite well with what we were just talking about with the British army of this exact time being very serious about sgt ship standards however the mad minute kind of got distorted in books and then it's done seriously distorted by the internet and then you got people arguing that it couldn't have been true the british soldiers shot fifteen pain rounds in a minute because we take a straw man argument based on one of these stupid myth versions and yet the hope version of the myth that's the mechanical accuracy of the rifle leaving the factory and in service as the wood gets here it'll go down it's never going to get any better the reality is that to be classed marksman or first-class second-class shots or whatever there was a whole series of practices of which practice 22 was grass fire was rapid fire it was 15 rounds in a minute at 300 yards starting five rounds in the gun the rest in the patches and it was on a 48 inch target frame and the highest scoring zone was 24 inches and the ami mark which is not quite a square it's sort of very stylized diner sort of Victorian the flap helmet yeah that's roughly 12 by 12 inches that's four and how it goes that's why ain't no good is taught by top but it's not the time 12 but 12 is the anymore yeah we equivalent to it the black not the outermost aiming ring quite around an earth and bulls-eye target yeah and that's where it comes from and I'm a glutton for punishment and every so often I get a core digest and during my lunch break sometimes I'll go through it it'll have things like this I know I've seen people snow the other thing the other myth about this that is I think the one that I see more often isn't it there was the mad minute and it was this fantastic British standard and what it meant was that every soldier could make 39 hits on that target in a minute right you get that too right yes we get that we get we get um because like the best guy to ever on record and this was some point you know senior gunnery sergeant who've been in the service for 85 years existed no is there that would be even better if he never smokes it's sergeant instructor smokes all okay 38 rounds in a minute yes okay 38 now see that's what happens on the Internet that's what happen our sport late the things we don't even have schnapps all really existed that's the thing there's no record of him and a shooter that good would have probably been competing as well thanks oh you think so so his name will probably be up in the army Rifle Association of Bisley on price boards and things there isn't there is Jesse Wallingford who did 36 allegedly I believe that Jesse what I thought was a real shooter was an Olympic shooter he was a seriously good all-around shot and I was at Calipari and won medals for bravery and for extreme feats of marksmanship against moving targets with rifle revolvers a machine gun general a press a super super shot all around and apparently an all-around good egg which is the most important thing when one is not British but doesn't mean everyone could do it no it seems to have been the the the the unlimited rounds madman it seems to have been an instructor demo right to calm the troops down who are worried about 15 rounds being a lot now if you're a German and your doctrine is 8 to 10 rounds a minute which is not in any of the manuals I fact that somewhere else then 15 rounds might seem like a bit of a bit of a stretch but in some of the later rifle training when it's the particularly the the the 1955 one I've got they said that to give everyone confidence they should they should get the best it's the best shooter the best rapid-fire shooter available who can shoot at least 20 to show that you can easily exceed 15 nice perfect sir yes yeah and the Second World War I'd like to exercise the same ammo they did they did they didn't do 15 in a minute they did 10 in 40 seconds with a with a five round start pre First World War it was indeed fifteen in a minute it's the same at the same rate of fire he seems to be an instructor demo to show don't worry it's easy don't worry is easy we can do 25 so you doing 15 is easy and honestly when you're used to rapid firing 15 is if you have if you have a stoppage if you have an issue you screw up then you're toast then you're toast right if you take 15 seconds to clear a stoppage because you've screwed up a charge at all or something you're toast right you're gonna you're gonna rushing it but 15 eight rounds whether in grounds in a minute is and it only takes one observer you know some foreign American German French observer watching one unit go through its training who watches one of these expert instructors get thirty rounds in a minute and goes my goodness yeah and writes a newspaper article which then becomes the only thing his entire readership has ever heard about British training because they don't have the internet because it didn't exist yeah and also now the story starts to spread about how every man in the British Army can fire 30 rounds or mate was it I think it was 40 rounds in a minute at a 5 inch target at 600 metres yeah gets inflated very very very quickly wikipedia says the the austro-hungarians with the m95 Monica could Tibby could 535 rounds a minute I'm gonna test this I haven't identified I'm just like that is the most uncomfortable gun bolt gun I have ever fired and anyone willing can fire 35 rounds in a minute is both out of their mind and has my most sincere respect and I'm pretty sure they don't exist yeah right I'm gonna try this I'd never heard of that one it's all I mean who's I was looking up stuff on that on a pretty new rifle headboard I was just like no no way that's insane no you in there you pointed out to me that the German standard for rapid fire oh yes yeah which was I can I remember this I locate this made an impression on me you start prone with the front sight at eye level and the butt on the ground so slightly drop and on command you have seven seconds to make one shot shell shoot a closer third year yeah that's the highest level of of training and we are 7 seconds notes it is a 300 foot for the for the Sharpshooter class it is it 300 meters you do it five times you can repeat three shots so you actually get eight rounds if you Mir and you need to make five hits and 33 points on the target that goes up to 12 and it's is 10 centimeters 20 centimeters 30 centimeters 40 centimeters with 12 being 10 centimeters and that's it yeah now that's not a super easy string but when you think of that is basically the highest level of qualification and training that's not not all that that is really not all that and when you've got the the the Brits on the other side who are all practicing 10 rounds in 40 seconds with a reload in there and expecting well the Brits didn't have the universal machine gun no we had a light machine and an immediate machine yeah and the the definition of medium machine gun is something for an entirely because that's a bowl of worms all one kind of woods that's a yes it's definitely the stop speaking that's a can of worms all to itself so that was cool that wasn't that let us get a bunch of stuff off our chests so what you wanted to supply this fall jolly good show we really appreciate you watching this far into a video of us sitting in a room bitching about guns about myths it's been fantastic yeah it was really cool to be able to hook up and definitely do some cool video hopefully you guys enjoyed it if you did well if you're watching this early you're seeing it on blokes Channel definitely check out his patreon account I think he does really cool content and he deserves to have a lot more support a lot more viewers than he does so of course if you already watching this you probably already know that so if you're not watching this super early if you're seeing it on forgotten weapons the same thing applies definitely check out his channel and all the very cool info he has and well if you're at it you might also take a look at my patreon account I did yeah indeed that is what allows me to travel to places like Switzerland where we are now to find some cool guns and bring you those and do some cool collaboration with guys like bloke on range so thank you very much for watching thanks you

Channel: Bloke on the Range

Views: 110,075

Rating: 4.9682889 out of 5

Keywords: weapons (interest), shooting (sport), milsurp, mad minute, forgotten weapons, m1 garand, ping, 30-06, .30-06, bren, .303, lee, enfield, mauser, accuracy, lmg, gpmg, mmg, 1903, springfield, smle, no.4, stg 44, sturmgewehr, gew 98, gewehr 98

Id: E6LrYNZOBHk

Length: 70min 13sec (4213 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 26 2017

Reddit Comments

[u/BroadcastJedi]

BotR and Ian drinking whisky and hanging out? Sweet.

[u/m1st3r_and3rs0n]

Monty Python! Holy Grail was one of my favorites growing up. I used to be able to quote the whole damned thing from memory. That's been displaced by far more useful things in the intervening years.

The 50% radius is called the CEP, or circular error probable. It is still used quite extensively to rate the accuracy of air-dropped weapons. You can convert to a single sigma distance, and can derive a three sigma distance from that. Three sigma distance should be 99.7%, damn near every shot. Group sizes for a CEP of 10cm are as follows:

1. CEP (50%) - 10cm radius, 20cm diameter (3.94in radius, 7.87in diameter), 0.33MRAD (2.29MOA)

2. DRMS (63% to 68%) - 12cm radius, 24cm diameter (4.72in radius, 9.45in diameter), 0.4MRAD (2.75MOA)

3. R95 (95%) - 21cm radius, 42cm diameter (8.27in radius, 16.5in diameter) 0.7MRAD (4.82MOA)

4. 2DRMS (95% to 98%) - 24cm radius, 48cm diameter (9.45in radius, 18.9in diameter) 0.8MRAD (5.50MOA)

5. 3CEP (99.7%) - 30cm radius, 60cm diameter (11.8in radius, 23.6in diameter) 1.0MRAD (6.88MOA)

This is pretty reasonable to be able to hit a soldier in the chest if shooting center chest at 300M. Given the statistics, this is more than good enough for the second world war. Given that most tend to measure groupings from center to center of the most spread rounds, I think this would correspond to 3CEP, so it could be a useful point of comparison.

Random thought from a distance drive one day, related to production of rifles during wartime:

One of the greatest benefits for the US military is the civilian shooting community. Consider, the US Army could requisition another half million M4 or M16 type rifles per year without exceeding installed capacity for the civilian market. Same thing goes for ammunition.

[u/bud_hasselhoff]

Wonderful. I'd been meaning to up my manliness factor.